The Big We: The Future of Giving is Collective - Hali Lee

10:30PM Feb 28, 2025

Speakers:

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Hali Lee

Keywords:

Collective giving

philanthropy

nonprofit professionals

community engagement

grassroots action

cultural generosity

kitchen table

donor pyramid

social impact

ancestral legacy

activism

fundraising strategies

Asian Women's Giving Circle

Donors of Color Network

Radiant Strategies.

Becky. Hey, I'm Jon, and I'm Becky, and this is the We Are For Good podcast, nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions, and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world. We're

here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories all to create an Impact Uprising. So

welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabbit fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

So let's get started. Becky, Oh, my word, even star

in the house. Yep, it's happening right now.

I mean, you know, you hang around, We Are For Good. We're all about the power of we and finding humans that share this belief that the power of the collective is so much better than the power of the individual. You know, we're gonna be kindred spirits. But today's guest is not just somebody that believes that, like they've been leaning into this and living into this for so many years that she's bringing her wisdom. She's launching a book today on the podcast, and I'm just so excited for you to meet our new friend, Holly Lee. She's the founding partner at radiant strategies. Her book the big we it's hitting bookshelves tomorrow. Y'all, so you can put this in your cart ASAP. We're gonna be talking all about it. But she's the co founder of the donors of color network, founder of the Asian Women's giving circle, founder, founding partner of radiant strategies. And before this, she was named to Forbes 50, over 50 y'all in impact, in recognition for her work as a founder of the donors of color network, the first ever national network of wealthy folks of color and a philanthropy together, a national collecting, giving support organization we know and love Sarah lomoline, so it's honor. Oh, she's one of our favorite, yeah, sending love to the philanthropy together team. But today, you know her boutique consulting practice, radiant strategies. They just have, you know, some small clients like a fidelity charitable How about the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the W H hell log foundation? So working really, at the intersection of philanthropy and impact and collective giving. So she's a frequent speaker. She's been in all the places, from the Washington Post, the New York Times and, oh, the We Are For Good podcast today, which is really exciting to see on your list. And she lives in Brooklyn, where she's the lover of big dogs. She keeps rooftop honeybees. Come on, can we talk about that? She's a mom, she's a sister, she's a partner, a cousin and an auntie, and she's now a friend to all of us here, Holly, welcome to the podcast. We're a little excited that you're here.

Oh my god, I'm so excited to be here with two fellow Midwesterners. And yeah, thank you so much for inviting me onto this amazing podcast. And I love the intro. It almost made me tear up, because I'm a cornball like that. But people trying to do good in the nonprofit and philanthropic and social change and social impact sectors, and it's a tough time to be doing that, but more important than ever.

Yeah, gosh, so glad you're here today, and I'm excited to hear your story. I know we have these, like, kind of lines that have crossed each other. It's amazing. It's taken us five years to find you of our We Are For Good journey. But would you take us to some formative moments of your story, like, what has informed the work that you're doing today?

That's a big question, and I sometimes like to chunk it out, from like Me to We, to big we. So for starting with me, and that's how I wrote my book, and that's how I'm building this philanthropy curriculum. So for the me part, like my name is Holly, I use she her pronouns. My family immigrated from Korea when I was one year old, and they settled in, you know, after like Brooklyn, where all good immigrants go for a little while, they eventually ended up in Kansas City. And I grew up in a suburb of Kansas City, Missouri. My brother and I were the only Asian kids in our schools, public schools growing up until Kim Wong came in fifth grade, and we are friends to this day, love it so much. Yeah, you know, it's one of those things. And my parents were part of a gay which is a Korean shared savings circle. We could talk a little bit about that later, but I grew up around this idea of, like, pulling money and you could sort of use it for whatever you wanted. And I took that idea, when I moved to New York, and turned it into the Asian women giving circles, so that sort of collective spirit that I learned from my mom and dad is kind of one of the ingredients in there, I guess that comes that made me today. And then I have to mention my grandfather, my maternal grandfather, who I never knew, Han chi Jin, my mother's father, he was a freedom fighter, you know, when he was young, the Korean peninsula was a country, and it was under the rule of the Imperial Japanese Army, and he was tortured and imprisoned and nearly killed by that army, and then five short years later, taken away by what became the North Korean army and never heard From again, leaving my grandma to raise alone six children, the oldest girl of whom was my mom. So though I never knew Han Qi Jin, I've heard about in my whole life, and I hope that somewhere in me is one tiny decimal fraction of that fight and the spirit and the belief in fighting for a greater good. That he gave his life to. And my grandma died at 97 and she was part of my life for a long time, and I think of her too

well. Let's just take a hot minute here to honor Yeah. Hong Chee Chen, I mean, we were all standing on the shoulders of giants in this work, people who were on the front lines, paving the way, making it less rocky for those who come behind. I just think of what a great legacy that's being carried through your family and the story. Thank you for sharing that. I really think it changes the tenor of our conversations when we can see each other and when we can see the lived experience and how it informs and I just think this conversation is so relevant and perfect for the moment that we're standing in not only as a country, but as a species. And we have found out we cannot go at this journey alone, there is nothing about it. And I feel like impact professionals have known that the whole time. That is how we get movements built. That's how we get action building. But you have really put your flag in the ground and said, You know what, like collectivism is the way into and now, right now, is the moment for collective giving. You got a book coming out on this, but talk, talk a little bit about, like, your theory of change on this. What's your perspective on philanthropy, on how it's evolved over the years? I mean, you have some critiques that you lift in your book, The Big we and just talk about why this message is so important today, in this moment,

another big question. You guys, they're coming, get ready. I think that the reason I brought up my Korean background and my my grandfather is that, you know, I have this thing in my heritage called a kid, and you have it too, you know, like people have my Mexican American friends called them tandas. Some people grew up in a Christian faith, and they have tithing. There's sadaqa and zakat. If you're Jewish, of Jewish faith or Muslim faith. My Indonesian girlfriends calls them are San like, one of the things that was so fun to read and learn about and write in this book is to ask my friends and you know, here in New York, there's people from everywhere here, how did you grow up like? What were the cultures of generosity that you grew up with? And the trick, how can we take those things that are in all of our cultures and turn them into philanthropic practice today? And I think that the way that we practice philanthropy and today has, we've kind of been in the shadow of the billionaires, you know, for the last 2030, years. And I think that the way to dig ourselves out of that, that's the wrong metaphor, to move ourselves out of that shadow and into more of a sun that is inclusive of more of us, at all of us, is to reconnect with the cultures that we all come from. Because if I if we had more time Jon and Becky, I would ask you to describe like, how did your grandma and grandpa and aunties and uncles and great grandmas and great Grandpas take care of each other, take care of their kin, take care of their communities and their fellow towns people. And there's the nugget in there that I think we can use and learn to build forward our philanthropic practice today.

Yeah, I love that how you're like connecting this and grounding this in what's been passed down for generations. Because I think it's easy to see what's reality today, or maybe what we see today, and forget that there has been generosity that's been compounded and is passed down through generations. So how can we tap into that spirit? I'll say, Becky and I, before I could have put language around this, we knew that the donor pyramid felt broken, that it's like we spend our whole careers trying to get people to come up this pyramid when you realize the base is where it's at. So I would love to hear you know your kind of take, because you just led us into this conversation about how, really this billionaire led top down model of philanthropy has really shaped how, definitely, the culture perceives and the conversations about overhead and effectiveness, all those things kind of get muddled. How has that changed, even the way that we're measuring impact today? And where do you think there's a disconnect? Holly, I want to kick it to

you. Oh my gosh, so much to say there. And the first third of my book, which I have right here, which I wanted it to be the color of the Thai monk robe, and Jon, you and I both spent some some time in Thailand. Didn't quite get there, but it's pretty close. And so the first third of my book is a critique of billionaire focused, billionaire led philanthropy. And in the way I'm describing it, it's kind of a natural logical conclusion from this like myth of American individualism and this myth of American exceptionalism, and we love to anoint heroes. We love to find the heroic Louis coutures when we're talking about money, wealthy people and but, but we know that the real truth is that the truth of social change is when lots and. Lots and lots of 1000s and millions of people get involved to make social change. It's really hardly ever a top down one person, billionaire type thing. So part one is like a pretty thorough critique of that model of philanthropy. And what I think is most damaging about first of all, it's not true, like if you know Anand here at haradas and and Reich, I forgot his first name. They wrote really good books that are critiquing that kind of billionaire, technocratic, rich guy knows this kind of philanthropy. I call that person big Phil in my book.

Oh my gosh, Jon, can you please design a caricature for this that

is hilarious. It was fun to write that first third and, you know, I could have written 1000 pages critiquing this kind of philanthropy, but the there's lots of things to critique about it, which I won't get all into here, but the the most important critique, I think, is that if we rely on the billionaires to save us, which they won't, because they're not interested in changing the system that made them so rich in the first place, There are exceptions, like Eve Chouinard from Patagonia, my friend Abby Disney, there are really beautiful exceptions, but for the most part, they're not really changing things to make them more fair. But the worst to me, part of relying on billionaires is that it inspires a sort of passivity in the rest of us, and our system doesn't work unless more of us, ideally, all of us, you know, care enough to get educated, care enough to vote, care enough to lock arms with one another and figure out how to deal with the rats and trees. Like on my block in Brooklyn, it's all about rats and trees. Where you guys live. It might be something very different, or could be a playground, or, you know, a corner that needs some whatever it is like, our system in America doesn't work unless more of us are engaged civically. And in my mind, relying on billionaires in any sphere. We're seeing it now in the federal government, but relying on billionaires in the philanthropic sphere doesn't help us engage our citizenry muscles, citizenry muscles, and if ever there was a time when we need to exercise those muscles, it is, it is now?

Yeah. I mean, I could not agree with you more. We have a 2025, trend right now called advocacy is non negotiable. And I know I've brought this up in another podcast, but I got to say it again, when we were asking this question to our expert we who Sixto Cancel, who was diving into why we must be activated into the advocacy process, he says, you know, if you're feeling us pitting your stomach about this notion of going forward, then that is your answer right now. And I think all of us have a pitted in our stomach, and we need to lean in to this notion that it's not me going in on it on my own. It's about this idea of bringing our community with us and speaking with one voice and sharing the lived experience. So your book is really highlighting this notion of grassroots collective action. Talk to us more about these stories, and then talk about the RIP live impact that you're seeing. I'll

tell a story that's not in my book, but it's going to be, I think, in an op ed that's hopefully dropping like any minute. My mother in law is 95 years old, and she lives in rural Connecticut, and a couple of years ago, there was an election for the state led for the State House of Representatives. I forget what they call it there, but it's that house body, and she and some friends were interested in trying to flip that seat from this, from a man who's a Republican to a woman who's a Democrat. And my 93 year old that time, mother in law, she was like, What can one older lady do to have an impact in my state? So she talked with she met the woman, she met the campaign manager, and then my mother in law. We call her aka Akka, said, You know, I can throw a tea party in my home and invite my neighbors and friends. I can do that every week. This summer, she has a beautiful round table that fits about eight. So if you allow for a seat for ACA and a seat for Maria, the candidate, that leaves six spots for her friends, neighbors, towns, folks to come over, she hosted about 12. She figures every month for the summer, she thinks about 75 people came to one of her tea parties. Maria won that election. There was a recount because it was so so close, but she won it by 64 votes, and her campaign manager thinks that August Tea Parties made a material difference in helping Maria win that election. So when Becky, you say, it's really scary to do something alone, and things feel so big and things feel so overwhelming, and you say, bring your community along. I can make it even I could drill it down to even easier than that, like, bring along the people that fit around your kitchen table. Like, literally think of your kitchen table as a locus of a lot of organizing, because, in fact, kitchen tables have been the locus. Of a lot of powerful organizing for women and queer folks and people of color. Always, most of us have a kitchen table or a little, you know, I live in New York, or you have a little sitting area that you could fit, you know, four or five or eight people with

your bees. Maybe

bring you some wine. We can have some wine with my bees. Let's put some honey in the bread, you know, like, think about that size, you know, because that's an awesome size to get started a giving circle, or to get started on figuring out what's happening on your block. You know. Think it doesn't have to be this massive thing, you know, we can all convene our friends and neighbors to talk about things that are important to us and to pull our time, talent, treasure, testimony or ties, to do something about it. Gosh, use

an example of your mother in law at 93 years old. I saw a sign recently that said, What can I do? I'm just one person. And then it said, Said, 300 million people, and it's this notion of, if we're all saying, What can I do if we all choose to make that step forward? That's 300 million steps forward, that could be an extraordinary moment.

Can I quote Holly to Holly here? So in kind of the background on, oh, no, we love doing this. You said this. You said, I hope my book offers one way, one vehicle that any of us can do. Every single one of us is capable of inviting and joining. Both of those actions presupposes others moving from a solo me to a bigger we, I mean, my goodness, like talk about the agency we have, and it comes down to that invitation and joining. And I think Becky and I, you know, talk to a lot of fundraisers by default, and there's just always that lingering. Are we actually making it clear what the gift of activation could be for that person, you know, actually inviting somebody to be part of it with us. So what is the stir up for you, as you kind of break this down, and this is kind of the back half of your book, right? Getting activated, inviting

and joining. So like priests, the in order to do that, well, we have to listen, right? We have to care. We have to be curious. I don't. I'm not like proselytizing, you know. I'm not telling you who to vote for or what to check on the ballot, you know, or anything. I just, I want to hear about what you care about. Jon and Becky, if we lived, if we were neighbors, and I'm pretty sure that if we were neighbors, we could find something like that, Venn Diagram of common of common thing that we care about. And so I guess what I'm saying, in a way, is that each of us who is out there in our workplaces and our PTA parent associations or book clubs, adult sports leagues, you know, we're all parts of lots of different groups, and there's a Venn diagram in each of them. And if each of us could think about, like, if we keep kind of thinking about those Venn diagrams of common purpose, common values, common concerns, over time, the people that you're Venn diagramming with starts to grow, and that's there's a lot of power in there. So I guess if I had to, sort of like, distill it, I would say that I see in my world and my friends and my family a lot of fear and overwhelm and peril, like this feeling of sort of parallelization, paralyzed, being paralyzed. And I feel it too. You know, it's heavy, but the cure for that is community. The cure for that is finding people to sit around your kitchen table with or your living room with, having those conversations about shared concerns, shared values, shared dreams and wishes, and then taking the having the courage to do one thing together. It doesn't have to be a massive thing. It can be a small thing, like pull neighbors for something, or raise 20 bucks for something, or go to this restaurant that's being started by someone who's a new immigrant to this country, go do that together. It can be something. It doesn't have to be like a huge lift, but it starts to build that thing of doing something together that I think we all need to lean into right now

that is so good and so practical. And I don't care if you have never worked in nonprofit or ever been a volunteer like this is something that everyone can do. This is something you could do with your kids. We're talking about fueling young generosity and getting kids in the habit of being an active part of generosity, philanthropy, kindness, empathy, these kinds of things. And I just thank you for saying it Holly. Because I just, I just think we're seeing we're the most connected we've ever been, and yet we are the loneliest generation that has ever been because of the technology or because the state of the world. And I think this muscle that you're asking us to activate into of getting out and connecting, getting out and doing, getting out and serving, it is such a higher calling to self. It's beyond self. And that's what we think is the power of community. And I cannot help but. See these common threads between us, like we have talked about we are for goods. Physical space is in our minds, mom's kitchen table, because we think that's where you can come as you are, you know, in your fuzzy socks, in your bathrobe, and pour your heart out and get what you need from that space. But you also talk about doing one thing, and we call it the one good thing. What is the one good thing that we can activate on today? So I'm loving just how our stories and these belief systems are jiving together, but we want to get activated. Speaking of activation, we want to get activated. So you work with these incredible organizations. We're talking we mentioned a couple gates, foundation, Kellogg Foundation, so many others, and we have people listening within this space who range in organizational size from really small to really, really big, but the principles that you are really leading with this conversation are universally applicable. So where would you really point listeners to get started today.

You mean, if they work in a nonprofit, or they're a fundraiser, or,

I think yes, but if you want to take it to a second place and say, if you're just somebody looking to activate in I mean, take it however you want to. This is your podcast. We're just here.

It's your podcast. I'm a guest. Thanks for inviting me to your kitchen table today. It's really fun to talk to you. I feel like we could talk for hours and hours. So let me go first to the fundraisers and nonprofit folks, because I've been there too. I've been a strategy person. I've been a fundraiser at nonprofits. I've been an executive director of a little tiny nonprofit, and I have a feeling you have some of those folks amongst your listeners. First of all, thank you. You are doing God's work. You are doing some of the hardest work around and some of the most important work around, and you're not being paid enough or compensated enough for the work that you're doing. So firstly, thank you. The fundraiser. So I got to do this research for to build the donors of color network. And to do that research, I interviewed 150 wealthy people of color across the country, and it was a blast. And just what a fun project and moving and inspiring, and the idea of legacy was like such a theme. So I had a lot of time to talk with fundraisers about this project, because lots of people at nonprofit want to increase the diversity of their member roles and their donor roles as well. And so what I would say to you and them, and what I said then, is take the time to ask people about their lives. You know, I know you don't have time to do this with everyone, but pick, you know, five people throughout the year, whether it's a that volunteer who comes week over week, don't make it just the major donors, but the people who are really plugged in and supportive of your organization, the mission and vision of your organization. Take the time to ask them about you know, who are your people, and what's your story, and how did, what's the How did your family get here, and what were the things that you learned growing up? And what moves you? The interview protocol that we used is for is available for free. It's the appendix of the of the report. I can send it to you and another we can use it. It's not in this book, but it's in the report that I wrote for that build but what I'm saying is like the core importance of building relationships is what we're talking about here. And even I know it doesn't always feel like it, but people who work in fundraising at nonprofits, that's really essentially the most important thing you're doing. And if you can take a little time throughout the course of your year to try to have a deeper conversation with five or 10 of the people in your community who are core supporters in terms of time and talent and resources. I urge you to do that, and if this interview instrument can help get you started thinking about some of the questions you might ask, then please use it. Part Two of that is you have to be willing to share a little bit about yourself, you know, like, this divide between, like, the personal and the professional is kind of baloney, you know, like, if we're gonna try to build social change together, I just think that wall has to start coming down to the degree that you you are able to give in whatever you're dealing with in your life. But I just think this, it's a false divide, and it's a divide that hasn't served us. So I think we should start thinking about how to share more personally And relatedly, in order to build good, hard work together, and then in terms of, like, the bigger picture, I'm going to go back to the kitchen table idea, because it's something that we've all got, and you guys are riffing on the same theme. My tweak to that is, please add a leaf or two to invite people to your kitchen table who are a little bit different than you. If my group of kitchen table invitees my dinner parties or brunches or stitch and bitch, you know, I do a stitch and bitch at home with knitters and crochet others who just come for the bitching part. One of my friends, Christine, actually, she's been knitting the same janky little pink scarf for 20

Christina, just glad you're

here. But why even bother? She's not. Coming for the knitting. She's coming for the bitching. Anyways. So if my group tends to be, you know, moms with young adult kids, and we grew up in, you know, New York City, I would try to invite people who maybe are not moms, or not dads, not parents, or people who live a neighborhood over, like, just like, a little bit different than who your normals are, your regulars are, because otherwise we can tend to reify, you know, the echo chamber tribal thing. So the way to do that as a person is just to try to expand your table by a seat or two or add a leaf. So I'll add that to the metaphor. Okay,

Becky's making you a friendship bracelet. I'm not sure what my modality is, but I feel like kinship of hearing you talk today. I mean, these are not just like how we should show up as fundraisers. It's how we show up as like humans that can really weather this. The more that we understand each other, the more that we hold space and realize that we are complex human beings that are more than just a title and more than just whatever surface level things. It's so good. You know, we love story here. It's very much central to how we talk about change. And I'm curious if you would take us into a story that has stuck with you regarding philanthropy. I mean, we define that really broadly, in the sense of, it could be generosity and the big Phil. What was his name? Your big philanthropy, big Phil, or it could be a small moment of just kindness. What's a moment of philanthropy that sticks out to you?

Friend? Gosh, there's so many, but I'm gonna pick one from the giving circle. So I started the Asian women giving circle with a group of girlfriends in New York City. We're turning 20 this coming year, which is wild. And this woman, Angie, came to that first meeting like hugely pregnant with a baby, and that baby's off to college, you know. So we've been through a lot together, which is amazing. So, gosh, like more than 10 years ago, a group of young activists asked the giving circle to write a grant for, I think, $4,000 they wanted to crash the party that is the official Lunar New Year parade in Chinatown to celebrate, you know, the Lunar New Year, and crash it for because they were gay and queer and out and trans and all the fun things, and they were not allowed to march in the official parade at that time because of their gender and sexual orientation. So of course, we wanted to fund this grant, and I think we were the only funder who wasn't a blood relative. Our $4,000 paid for beer and Oreos and art supplies so they could create, you know, puppets and parade paraphernalia and rainbow colors and stuff and the night before the Lunar New Year parade that year, it was cold, February, beautiful, like crisp New York City winter day they got permission to march. They were kind of bummed, because they wanted to kind of do it illegally. But whatever they got official permission, we marched with them. It was glorious. It was really fun. And from that day onwards, a Chinatown official Lunar New Year parade has been integrated to include gay and queer and trans folks. They beat the Irish. In this regard, they made history. And it was a group of young activists for $4,000 and a group of, you know, we don't know we're doing philanthropists, you know, a giving circle that gave him the money to be able to do that. That night, I was cooking dinner with Peter, my husband, for our kids. They were smaller. They were small at that time, and this was covered on my local NPR station. They were in Time Out New York, you know, they literally made history. So I love this story so much because it just shows what a group of scrappy activists can accomplish with a lot of heart and not that much money, and also that a group of scrappy donors, you know, a giving circle, can partner with them in order to make change in our big city of New York. Okay,

that was such a beautiful story. And the irony, to me is, and maybe not irony, I mean, the prophecy of that, to me is, you have just written this book on the power of collective giving, and it's like you started out not knowing what you're doing. Y'all that is all of us coming in with a beginner's mindset on literally everything in life. And if we can just show up and take the first step and to your point, be vulnerable and authentic and raise our hand and say, I don't know what I'm doing, but I know that I believe in this thing. I know that we are all connected on these shared values, and I know I want to walk it forward in some way. Look at you 20 years later, you literally wrote the book on this. And I just think I also think about what that means for your children to have seen Mom rise up in that way and be brave in that way. I think about all of those people who marched, who didn't feel seen, they felt seen by you, they felt a sense of belonging and support, and how much that has rippled. And so I just think that there is something compounding to this, and we are connected in our desire to want to do good. We are also connected in our desire that we don't know what the heck. Do, but we know we need to start. And I just am very grateful, not only for this conversation, but that this book will be out and will give somebody a framework, and we'll give them tools, and we'll give them some of that roadmap to let their own ripple happen. So we want to tie this up with a really pretty bow. We call it the one good thing, and we want to know, like, what is a piece of advice, or maybe some wise counsel to leave with our audience, what's perkling up for you?

That's a hard one to you guys. Like, one good thing, I would say, join something or invite someone over. Like, do one thing, one action. I know I've kind of hammered this kitchen table idea, but you have one. I bet most of your people, most of your friends on this podcast, have a kitchen table. Think about it as a locus of inviting people, being invited in, and all that goes into being invited in. I want to add something about, like, philanthropy, you know, like I started this conversation by talking about my grandfather, who I never met. So one of the things that's really beautiful to talk about with friends and neighbors is like, on whose shoulders do you stand to do this work? And what kind of ancestor Do you want to be for the future generations of your family or your mentees, or your nieces and nephews about whom you can only dream. And those of us who get to work in philanthropy and nonprofits and social change have this incredible privilege to be able to do something that is building on the kind of legacy that we're sort of trying to connect here. You know, like the those of us alive today are in between the past and the future. Like, it's just an obvious thing, right? But there's like, a pro profound beauty, if we really sit in that, the possibility of that. You know, the people who came before us on whose shoulders I stand to do the work that I do, and the people who are going to come after Me About whom I can only dream. You know, that's just like, a beautiful idea. And I also think, you know that, you know, I included in my book some people who are, like, radically different than me. Like, you know, my dad's a lifelong Republican. I grew up in Kansas City, mostly Republicans and party wise people I grew up with, but they're like, kind decent, good neighbors, you know, good people with integrity, you know, like, the kind of people I would want to have my key if I were leaving a key around. If I, you know, I'm losing my key all the time. And I think that many of us are like that. You know, we don't have to be the same in lots of different ways. But there's like, I think there's a lot of us who want to be good neighbors, who want to be good parents, who want to be good members of our community, good, you know, participants in our children's schools or whatever. Like, we want to lean into that. And I think we have to, like, reanimate that in us right now. And one of the ways to do that is to join something or invite people to sit at your kitchen table and talk about what's important to you. So that would be my last I think my one good thing get the

leaf out, I keep the visual of growing the table, is also add a leaf. Add a leaf. Kids, bring the leaf in. If

you're my mother, go get the padding that goes on top of the leaf because you don't want any scratches on the table.

Or if you're me, haul over that side table because I don't have a leaf. But we can add, yes, yes.

Oh, my friend, this has been an epic conversation. We're so excited about your book. Let's talk for a second. I mean, the big we it is officially in bookstores everywhere tomorrow. So how can people find it? Where is the best place to go find the book and and find you online?

Oh well, that's a great question, because I'm trying to build a website. So it's coming. Holly. My name Holly, H, A, l, I, L, E, e.co, like Co Op and buy your buy the book. Wherever you buy books. Find your independent local bookstore. I really like book shop. I'm going there for all my books right now. But wherever you buy books, buy it and buy 10 and make a book group, and I'll come talk to it. If I'm in your neighborhood. I travel a lot for work, so reach out to me. And

I'll also say, if you're trying to connect with Holly, she's also on LinkedIn, so please go connect with her. Please explore this book, friends. I mean, we the collective movement is here. It is upon us. It just needs people to step forward into it and raise their hand and lock arms with the people next to them. So

totally right. The Collective is now and the future. Amen.

I mean, it's here. It takes a village. We all know this. We are all products of villages who have helped raise us in some form or fashion. Holly, adore you. Adore this work. I hope our work continues to intersect. We are absolutely going to be rooting you in this book on into the future. Thank

you so much for having me on Becky and Jon, I love meeting you and. We're so aligned we're doing we're marching the same direction. Yay. Amen,

do it more.