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Hi, my name is George Abraham and welcome to Eyeway Conversations. My guest today is Praveen Kumar G, a development professional and a trainer. Hi, Praveen welcome.
Hi, George, nice to be on your show.
So Praveen, you are a development professional, what actually prompted you to get into the development space?
Yes. So when I was growing up, as in during my childhood, I did study in St. Joseph's school in Bangalore. And it was around that time in my 11th standard in Bangalore, we still call it PUC. So PUC first year, when I met with one of my professors who talked about Master's in social work. And he did, by passingly, mentioned in the class, saying that, you know, this is one opportunity that we could explore. So, it was just by pass, he mentioned, and obviously, at that time, we didn't know what MSW was, and what it entailed. But he only said that, yes, it is something where you work with people and you serve people. So that was the first kind of introduction I had. But yeah, when I heard about Master's in Social Work, and, and being visually impaired, and having the opportunity to study and be educated, I really thought that is something I could explore.
You've been in the development space for more than two decades. So what are the different issues related to development that you've been involved with?
Yeah, I've been working on a range of issues, primarily focusing on working with vulnerable groups, women, children, farmers, marginalized groups, tribals, sheduled caste communities, rural people, young people, and so on. And my primary focus has always been to ensure that vulnerable groups ,marginalized people have access to basic services like health, education, livelihoods, social security, and so on. And across this, I look at how people with disabilities are included, and also get the opportunity to have access but also become more aware about development programs and services.
You've traveled a fair bit and you've seen a fair bit of India. Now, you talked about these various issues that you've been engaged with. So according to you, what is the status ?meaning, is it far away from what is desired or there is hope?
George, it's a bit of both because we see in the country, across different states, there's a huge divide, urban and rural and more so, in both locations like poverty, issues of poverty are there, there are structural inequality. And even now, there are challenges that people do face in accessing health care services, education and employment. So, these are the kinds of basic requirements that we as human beings have. So, that challenge still lies. But having said that, there is hope, because there are a lot of schemes, there are a lot of programs. And I believe that awareness is still lacking amongst a large number of population, particularly in the tribal belt and also in urban areas where people do not have access to information or digital technology and so on. So that's where we still see that gap. But there is a hope, where civil society organizations are doing their bit, corporate now ,we have corporate social responsibility. We also have international organizations working ,so there is definitely a hope and opportunity in enabling people to understand what their rights are and what they require, and how they're able to access some of these services and programs.
So even if you were given the power to transform India, what are the three first things that you would do?
So one is definitely to enhance accessibility for people with disabilities. So that includes in all arena, I know, we know that there are a lot of challenges, even now, when we're talking about digital India and so on, how we do struggle in accessing various platforms, apps or websites. So definitely the communication access is one and also the physical access in terms of mobility. So that's definitely going to be top one. The second is talk about more equitable distribution of resources and services taking into consideration gender and disability, and other vulnerabilities in terms of, as I said, accessing basic services, like education, livelihood. And the third one is also more empowered communities at the grassroot level, so that they have a greater say at the Gram Panchayat level of Gram sabha level. So that, you know, the dream of a bottom up approach comes in terms of budgeting and implementing development programs.
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You've also in the course of your professional work traveled extensively in countries in Africa.What has your experience been has it been very different from what happens in India or that's been different?
It's been totally different George, I mean, many countries are much more behind than where we are. And mainly because of the resources, the lack of resources and opportunities that are there. So, and they are also picking up, like I know in Zambia, there are networks of youth with disabilities, Kenya, across Uganda, and Ethiopia as well. So there are different networks of people with disabilities that are emerging. And there are civil society organizations also who are working, but the big challenge is access to assistive devices, which are very expensive in those countries. We don't have, you know, services, like, you know, surgeries or, you know taking people to fall for, you know, the other, you know, when you do refractive correct corrections for eyes, or you do, you know, the other surgeries for eyes in particular. So those services are also very few, that again, becomes a challenge. And the ignorance and the sympathic approach is much more higher, is that in India as well, I'm not saying it's not, but in some of the countries, it's very higher. So for example, someone who has, albinism is considered, you know, being unworthy or even linked to witchcraft and so on. So they're literally thrown out of the house, or they're killed, and, and so on. So it's worse in some of the cases in parts of Africa.
So as a blind, professional, working in Africa, what were your challenges?
While traveling George I mean there are challenges. But as I said, if you keep on counting the challenges, you know, it becomes multi fold. So, you know, one, one should not look at the challenges, but look at what are the solutions? You know, we just move on because everyone has challenges. So let's, let's take that, you know, as given, because, as human beings we all, whether we are disabled, or non disabled, we do have challenges, but if you keep counting them, it's just, it gets stacked up. And, you know it keeps on growing, but how do we overcome those challenges? Yeah, so like, for anyone who's struggling to some parts of, I wouldn't say all parts of Africa, but some parts like, you know, if you go to places like Kenya and Ethiopia and so on, so there may be issues of security. That's for everyone. And if you're, if you're an individual from a foreign country, in a country, always, you know, you're looked upon as a foreigner and definitely, you know, their eyebrows raised .And you know, people look at you as an expat. So you need to be careful. And yeah, so I haven't faced any untoward incidents, Touchwood. But, yeah, one, I'm always cautious about where I'm going and what I'm doing, who I'm who I'm moving around with, and so on. So yeah, it's overall, it's been a wonderful experience. And I do love to travel and meet people. And I've worked with even district offices in some of these countries and different organizations. So it's quite an interesting journey.
So you've also been a trainer, what made you get into training? And what's the kind of training that you've been doing? And whom have you been doing training with?
Yeah, so as I said, George, you know, building awareness and changing people's attitude, behavior towards disability has been my passion for the last 20 years. And that's the reason why I did my master's in social work as well. And I thought training well is an opportunity, and is a way that one can influence people and bring about behavioral change. So yeah, I've been doing training on diversity, equity and inclusion, and in India I have trained government officials, UN agencies, wide number of civil society organizations, and even corporateS and currently I do trainings internationally and across different countries on social inclusion and gender. And I find that more satisfactory and very convincing, where, you know, one is able to influence people to look at disability from a mainstream and the development perspective.
You also have a sharing with me some time ago that you're interested in traveling and especially historical places. Is it an interest in history that you have?
Yes, it started basically, I'm a student of history and I love history of countries or history of the, you know, the local context, so that that love for history took me to visit a couple of places when I was studying in Bangalore. So I used to visit Mysore and humpy and those kinds of places and started enjoying the the ambience and feel of the places so people did ask me many times and even now they do ask me that you're blind while you visit those places, what do you get out of it, you cant see the structure you cant see the the scenery or the beauty of the place. I said, it's not about that, but it's more about how we sense that particular location and how we are able to cherish that moment and that ambience by being there. It's something which I like. And most of the places George, if we as blind people visit, we're also allowed to touch you know, if we Mysore Palace, I remember when I went to the palace, one of my friend was guiding me, you know, he asked the security guard that can I touch those arms and those those portraits, he said yes, you can. So you know, it was a great experience. And in most places, now, also they have guide, you know, where you can take a guide and the guide can describe you that particular image what is there but also they will say what is the history about that particular place. So, for example, it largely happens in places like Konark and other locations where, you know, I've visited so those are also very nice in terms of enjoying that particular moment in time in history.
So it's not just about seeing the things but it's an experience, which is beyond beyond seeing, right?
Yes, yes. And I also went up Alps once when I was in Switzerland went up Interlaken and Jungfrau with a couple of my friends and the fun of going there and experiencing that and also climbing that you know icy kind of mountain cap was fun to hold the rope and climb and obviously friends around who describe what is there and what view they are seeing. So you get an image in your head.
Praveen, you've been kind of widely traveled. And one of the things, even in India when you travel, you know, you experience different cultures, different foods. So tell us a little bit about how you respond to this diversity.
Yeah, we are a country of diversity. And as I said, I'm from South and now I live in the North. I live in NCR and in the south, the total ambience is different where, as you said, food, you know, you get Idli, dosa and those kind of stuff. And also you go to the local hotels and places and it's fun, it's just fun going around and even sometimes I go alone as well I just go and you know, have bite of idli and coffee and come in one of those, you know, standout eateries and stuff. So it's, it's really enjoyable. And when I travel to other places, also, I do explore. As I said, I like meeting people, I like understanding cultures. People also invite me for dance programs, like, you know, whenever I used to go to Bhuvanewshwar shows, I did go for dance programs, and then enjoy the local haat, where they sell different curios and mementos and stuff and understand that particular perspective. Again, when you come to Gujarat and Maharashtra, that's a total different kind of ambience where you get Vada pav ,all those kind of things, but people are largely friendly everywhere. But yeah, you need to be sensitive to their culture and their you know, ethos, but at the same time, be polite, and, you know, kind of ask help whenever required. So if you're shy, it's not for you. I mean, one can travel, if you're shy, you need to keep asking if you need help. So that's something what I learned, at a very young age.
You've been traveling fearlessly and confidently, across the country, internationally, what is your one point strategy for this?
Yeah, George looking back. I think, I need to be organized, I think that's what I learned. So being organized, and knowing what I'm going to do, and being confident about that, really helps. So in all my travels, one thing always comes to my help is that I'm organized because, you know, those days, now we have the mobile and, you know, we can flash out the e ticket and so on. But those days, yeah, if you're traveling, make sure that the ticket is printed, and you know which ticket is which, because I might have three tickets in my bag. And I wouldn't know which one is which. So maybe just Braille index them or you know, those kinds, and then how managing money for example. So, in India, it's fine. But when I travel abroad, you know which currency I'm carrying, so you'll be aware about that. Be aware about the local contexts where I'm going. So if I'm traveeling to Koraput, I definitely need to know, Koraput in Orissa, India, so I need to know what are the local situation? Is there any local disturbances there? And so on so and what are the train journeys during distance time? What time will I reach, I don't want to reach there in the middle of the night when there's nobody to pick me up from the station. So all of that. The last one is be excited. I mean, every travel is exciting for me. So even if I've been there before, so even tomorrow, you tell me go to Bhuvaneshwar, that will definitely be an exciting journey for me.
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So you've been blind since birth, I believe? What was the cause? Is it some kind of genetic issue? Or is that something that happened at birth?
Yes George. It's hereditary. My father was blind and I have Retinitis pigmentosa, which was detected at a very early stage. When I was young, I could see a little bit, just shadows and it went down gradually as I grew up.
So while you were studying, you said that you had studied at St. Joseph's school.What was the kind of ecosystem that supported you or helped you along?
Yeah, one I would say the the teachers and the principal had the mindset to you know, open the doors for a blind child. I think that was the beginning step. And I would say that was the end step as well because that was a very big thing that was way back in the 80s. And then they they did ensure that I would always sit in the first row in the classroom so that I could follow the lessons, they did ensure that the notes, my friends would provide me with the notes, and I would take it back. And my mother did play a major role in reading those notes for me, every day, we used to record that on cassette, and would listen to that. And in exams, they made sure that there was a scribe who could write for me as well. So yeah, a lot of things that they did, in terms of making it inclusive.
A lot of visually impaired people complain that, you know, when they are in the school, opportunities to be part of the extra curricular scenario of the school is very limited. What was your experience?
It was a challenge. And I remember going into, you know, the physical training class, what's called as PT class, and that was it, because I did try to participate in the lunch break with my friends, trying to, you know, trying to play cricket, like, maybe throw the ball or something, but it didn't work, you know, honestly didn't work. So, I was definitely left out on that. But there are other avenues where I did participate in the, in the mimicry session, you know, these cultural, other cultural activities. So, like, you know, you do a mimicry show, or you enact, you impersonate someone, you know, you may sing a song. So different, those kinds of activities I was engaged in. And they also made sure that I participated in the annual drill sessions and on. Only when it was the certain drills, which had, where you have to use a torch with a fire. They said, No, you know, we can't risk it. So, and that's, that's absolutely, you know, acceptable, because I don't want to risk my life with a flame.
You know, when it came to employment, did you get a job easily, or you had to kind of knock several doors?
Yeah, it was fairly easy, I would say, because after I did my master's in social work, I decided I'll work with organizations and that time, you know, ActionAid had come up with this development traineeship program, and I had applied and I got in. It was, it was quite smooth, the kind of transition. So, but, you know, one question, which always, I think is the fact that they had in mind was, and in the interview, they would ask me was ''Praveen can you travel''?, because the job entailed a lot of travel, you know, you had to go to the village as you had to form several groups of women, or to go interiors, and build capacity to spread awareness on issues. And that was the nature of the job. So they asked me invariably 'Praveen can you travel?'. And they asked this, you know, two, three times, and, and they also ensured that I was capable, and I liked traveling, I think that came to my benefit as well.
So mobility is very critical in employment?
Yeah. In a in a role like mine, definitely. But I know blind people who can do office jobs. See I'm passionate about traveling, and I'm passionate about Development. And so you know, both kind of merged and intertwined. And I enjoyed working and traveling. And this might not be the case for everyone because people, blind people I know, they don't like traveling. So, you know, I know a blind person, a good friend of mine. He teaches, he said, No, that's not for me. I want to teach, and he's fine with that. So it's individual choices.
Yeah, I guess every blind person is unique and distinct, and they have their own passions. And that's true with everybody.
True.
So tell me a little bit about your family, Praveen meaning, I believe you're married?
Yes. married and I have a son who is 10 years old. And he's in class 5 now. So we enjoy life I mean, I always say this to people that I enjoy life like anybody else.
You know when when you live life in the mainstream and you travel and you meet people and you go through various experiences. I think it was you was told me once that there are a lot of funny situations that happen comic situations. Have you been through any of these comic sessions? situations in life?
Yeah, I mean every day, there is something or the other. I mean, as I said, you know, if we if we take something as you know, as a problem, it becomes a problem, you know, it keeps lingering in your mind and heart. But if you take that with a small, you know, humor, then you know, things will be totally different. So, let me give a small example, one of my neighbor , is a very senior person, so, he asked me, you work, I see you going out to the office coming back and you're very active, you must be getting a salary. You don't see that, that point, it's actually hurting you, okay, it's kind of undermining you. But I didn't take it that I said, Okay. It's funny that he's asking me this question. So I turned around back to him and said, So how do you think I manage my family? I have my bills to pay, I have, you know, different things, you're seeing me every day. So he said, oh yes, I can understand you must be getting a salary. So you know, you put it around and, you know, kind of just get it out there as a humorous thing.
Infact a lot of these questions are asked out off ignorance and not with an intent to hurt?
Yeah, but but many people do get hurt . Because traveling so much. You know, people do ask me strange questions. And particularly in the train, you know, when you're sitting in that group with, you know, strangers and they see you using your braille watch or your smartwatch and oh, okay, how do you do this? Okay. How do you know where to get down? How t do you use the washroom in the train? How do you get to that particular point, and so on. So, you know, sometimes it's a bit irritating, but I feel that, you know, it's not because they are ignorant, and it's our responsibility to educate them and sensitize them on issues of disability.
Right, Praveen, it's been wonderful kind of interacting with you and talking about life and issues that you've been engaged, with grappling with. Thank you for the time and wish you the very best.
Thank you, George. Thanks for the opportunity to be interviewed and speaking on this platform. So thanks a lot.
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