So yeah, I've been ever since we started talking, like, I've always been, your stories always been, you know, fascinating. And, you know, I was I was happy to see that you got out last year. Because, you know, they gave you they gave you an incentive. And I always thought it was pretty clear with you that it was like, okay, Obama's coming in. Someone has to like, be the scapegoat here. Someone has to we have to look like we're taking this seriously. And we have to give this guy a sentence that we would never give to anyone else. And I always I actually, you know, around the time 2009 that's around when I like checked out of following national politics a lot. Because I thought it was ridiculous. Not necessarily like what you what was going on with you personally. But the idea of all these people, Obama, Valerie Jarrett, everyone saying, how could you sell a senate seat? They're all sold. What are you talking about? And it really it really did. You know, I was from Hyde Park, everyone in Chicago was really excited about Obama. And it really set the tone for the next eight years for me.
Well, that's it. That's interesting, Felix, and thank you for opening with that. And let me say that to start out. The day I die, I'll never stop contending that I didn't break a single law cross a single line and the so called sale of the senate seat was all bullshit from the very beginning. Can you swear on this podcast?
Oh, you could say whatever you want. This is
This podcast is fucking golden. But it was all but it was all bullshit. I never sold a senate seat. There was a bunch of baloney and eventually the Appellate Court reversed those charges. There. I was in prison for nearly four years. By the time they did it. It was in July of 2015. They could never uphold the standard. They used to convict me on that. Because that was shut government down because government is predicated on horse trading. Long roll Yeah, political deals. Now if I were involved in trying to, you know, Shakedown, Obama for an appointment, and you know, I tell Obama or somebody, give me, you know, $25 million in a Swiss bank account for me, well, that would be the sale of ascendancy, that would be a crime, but that was never it was political deals. And the conversations, feelings all began with Obama, he sent an emissary to me to make these have these discussions. Now, he didn't do anything wrong, either. That's how politics works. But whatever reason they came after me, and they did what they did, they brought Armageddon, I would never give in, I would never stop fighting against them. I wouldn't take the deals, they were dangling light sentence, they didn't convict Mater, first crack was all bullshit they use that they move the line, the second trial to get those convictions. And then they, as you say, they buried me with a 14 year sentence, I never took a penny. This is unprecedented. No Governor's been ever given a sentence like that. They put me in a higher security prison, all designed to break my will to resist and I wouldn't do it. And to this day, I continue to fight as best I can to try to get the truth out because in the final analysis, that's an example of government out of control. Without checks and balances, these prosecutors are elected by the people with fancy law degrees bureaucrats who abuse their power, and decided to do a political hit on me. Now, I can see how the new politics is unfolding. And it's very dangerous, but they're using these prosecutors as political weapons to go after people that we don't like. And, you know, we may or may not like, politically, and it's not a democrat republican issue. This is an American issue. It's about our freedom in a democracy. And what they did to me, I think was, you know, sort of an example of this new politics is politics of personal destruction. And when I was a congressman back in the late 1990s, and I voted against impeaching Bill Clinton for the blowjob, he God, right. He shouldn't have done that he's married and Hillary should have thrown his ass out. But that's between them. It's not an impeachable offense, and then to try to throw him out of office and put them in prison. This is what's really bad about American politics today. It's very dangerous. And if it looks if you have any children, I keep them out of politics. It's a dangerous business.
I don't have any but like, no, I would, I would literally have them do anything else. You'd have to I'd rather than have them be podcasters ignominious is that is, rather have me do what I do. Well, that gets
you probably have more influence podcasts within as an individual member of Congress.
I hope not. Well, I don't. But it's a terrible,
it's a new candidate. That reality that I returned on to I mean, this wasn't like it was what it is now. It wasn't like it was before I left. It's very interesting.
What that I, you know, as I said, always been really into your story. And the past month, two months been doing a lot of background on it. Something that I think is amazing about your story is you're kind of the connective tissue between how things used to be and how things are now, I even think it's clear when you look at the congressional district, you represented in Congress, Rostenkowski had Rostenkowski represents the old ways of doing things. And that's not a moral judgment. You know, those patronage networks. I mean, there's always going to be patronage in if we're doing this system that we have, we're always gonna have it. And yeah, there are things you can criticize about it. But you look at what the democratic machine in cities is now, you look at someone like Eric Garcetti, the mayor of Los Angeles, you look at, you know, Rahm Emanuel, you look at Lori Lightfoot. Now you look at Bill deblasio, anyone, those relationships are now patronage relationships with, you know, national tech companies, their relationships with developers. And they it seems like, you have the same general problem that people have always identified, but there's less buy in for an average person. And with you what I think is sort of amazing about your story, particularly is I really, I, you know, everything I've read about you, there are all these accounts about how, you know, your eyes are always set on kind of a national stage. You You You had your eyes on the presidency for a while. And I think you you could have done it. Out of all the Democratic politicians in my lifetime. You you kind of have that like old style of like retail politics, that type of charisma. I looked at some of the people who ran for president in my lifetime. You know, john kerry, Walter Mondale will not walk I wasn't allowed that. Yeah, so yeah, you get it, but like, a lot of dead fish. You get Hillary and you you sort of had that ability. You you genuinely enjoy talking to people. I always got that sense for you. But you, you were aware of the time so you weren't going to Rostenkowski he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. They eventually got him on mal fraud. I think it was. And that was, you know, he's one of the probably the last sitting Congressman, they'll ever get on something like that. He of course, he fought it too. They sent him away. But then, you know, you were there. You had a lot of those relationships in still in your district. In the ward, you started out in it with people here. But you were aware of the changing times. And you know, it's clear when you're a governor. And then after you come as Rahm Emanuel, who completely represents the new way of doing who he could be from anywhere. Right. You know, when he became mayor, it's, it was it was like when they move baseball managers around. It felt like he had zero relationships here. And it was clear when he was mayor, but I I also think in a lot of ways you were pretty ahead of your time.
Well, that's interesting. Felix, I would say a couple of things. Rob, sort of look at Ron, we look at JB Pritzker governor now. They're sort of like the top down. Yes, you know, their political careers in President Trump to on the other side of the political party. top down, yeah, I came up, grassroots up. And you know, my beginning was literally for very local racist state representative in these neighborhoods very close to the studio. And you go out, you do what you said, reaps at retail politics, and you meet a lot of people one on one. And it's good that way, I think because you, you understand them better, and their desires, their hopes, their dreams, their fears, because you you're with them. And if you're running a campaign that's directed towards actually reaching as many voters as you can, at the grassroots level, you spent several weeks more than two months doing that. And so then when you get elected, hopefully you don't forget the things they told you. And you try to do those things when you're in a position where you can actually get them done. And we'll talk maybe later about my time as governor because I feel very proud of the accomplishments we did for everyday ordinary people. But we I think, improve their lives and eat some of the burdens they face. But I feel like that that type of politics keeps you close to the people. And you talked about the old machine, the Chicago machine with the precinct captains knocking on doors and stuff. And now that's no longer there today. And social media, I guess, is sort of replacing some of that. A lot of it may be but there's a lot to be said for that old school knocking on you know, the Mrs. Mrs. Solomon's door. She's a senior citizen and Jimmy McKenna. The precinct captain, knows her for years and years and takes care of things for her, you know, shovels the snow in the wintertime and helps her with you know, different kinds of issues Connect her to downtown and city hall. It brings local government closer to everyday people. And without that there doesn't seem to be that kind of connection that they have anymore. So there's a loss, I think, because that's no longer how it was now, was the patronage system abused? Of course it was. And were people hired, who were not qualified. I'm sure that was always a common practice with all the different political bosses. Whether it's Madigan, you know, my father in law, who was one of them, Rostenkowski, his dad was one Mayor Daley's dad, who was the ultimate political boss. And then there were, you know, the days where these guys would be city workers and wouldn't even have to show up to work. They would just work their precincts Madigan had some of these, some of these guys were such good precinct captains, that when I was governor, I knew who they were, I knew their names, they had a reputation in that political world, for being so good. And Madigan would protect them, and they wouldn't have to even go to work. And that's wrong. That's, that's ripping off the taxpayers. So that shouldn't be the case. But I do wish there was more of a some of that left. We're just everyday people can be connected to government through an emissary from the neighborhood who knows them and understands their concerns. So I think there's been a loss. And then you talk about, you know, the new kind of politics, but it's driven by money. It's all money. I mean, what did Pritzker spend $178 million?
I sold a senate seat, we call that buying governorship? Right, yeah, with his own money that he had, frankly, inherited internet money, right. And there's something troubling about that, too, with an American politics, you look at the United States Senate, very few are not, you know, millionaires or multimillionaires. So everyday people have a hard time being able to get elected the big offices because you need money. And, you know, my troubles were partly because of campaign fundraising, which I was aggressive at. But again, I didn't cross a single line on that either. But I believed it was important for me, if I was going to be a governor, to fight for the people, I promised I'd fight for children, we gave health care to all of our kids, free public transportation to our seniors and the disabled, I did that without raising taxes on people, mammograms and pap smears for uninsured women on 50,000 of them, mostly women of color, who die disproportionately from breast cancer, because they don't detect it early enough. So why did things like that? And to do it, get this take on the establishment because what I wasn't going to do was raise taxes on people to do it, and make it harder for people. But I felt like there was enough money in there. Just set better priorities and moving around. Well, you're gonna make enemies when you do that. But to be politically strong, you have to have campaign money. So you can fight the Madigan's and fight the bosses even you're in your own party, because their agendas are not necessarily your agendas. For somebody like Madigan, just so cynical, and there's a lot of people like him. It's all about power and their position in the power game, and so much less about actually doing things for people. So I felt I had to be strong politically by raising money. And the new politics today is, I think, too much of that. And I don't know what all the answers are, I've been advocating, believe it or not campaign, not only real campaign finance reform, which means limiting the amount of money that can be spent on campaigns. And that's been an idea that's been out there, since I began in politics in the early 1990s. But it's not going anywhere, because the money people don't want it. And frankly, the TV stations and the broadcasting associations that make money off these TV ads, they don't want it either. But it's really cheapening our politics. They want to limit the time of campaigns, they are to limit the amount of money that could be spent in a campaign, and then put different limits on what people can give. I think that would be a better way.
Don't you think, though? Like, to some extent, though, even if you were able to do that, you know, you can't be on the airwaves as much. I mean, I'm not even sure how well TV advertisement in politics works. No one really is it's has a variable effect. It depends on the electorate you're talking to. It depends the demographic, what time of day, the specific candidates, but I think mostly TV advertising is a way for consultants to pay each other. But the real money in politics beyond just, you know, consultants of varying levels of talent paying each other the same money sloshing around the same people forever. You're gonna see things like Gavin Newsom is you can, it's perfectly legal for his wife to be paid, you know, $300,000 a year through some NGO that companies who do business California that Newsom is supposed to regulate, for them to pay his wife. I mean, this is like, that's the way that our generals end up sitting on the boards of defense contractors, Telecom, anything that we're supposed to regulate it will, people will find a way to hire those people. I mean, you're, you're aware that that was I mean, that was even for you when you want it out. You kind of thought you wanted to go to the NGO world. Yeah,
yeah. So we NGO world meaning the, what is it? 10 what that means? Non government organization? Yeah, so like five like a five or so. Yeah, three c one or C? Yeah, one of those
and I'm not like I think it would Probably be good to, like at least make it harder for consultants and make money for there to be less money in politics media. But I think at the end of the day, there are just so many, and there's so many corners, you can cut, and so many ways to pay people one way or the other, that I just I do not know how you'd get rid of it.
Well, that's the real corruption in the in our democracy today was one of them. I would argue government surveillance and censorships another and what you, but this is another this this example that you're giving is, is very much a real problem in American democracy today. It's the end, let me say a couple of things. And I'm thank you for this opportunity to check the record. But you'll see that, you know, I could have easily when I was governor, arrange for my wife to get one of those positions one of those jobs, and I didn't, and she didn't, we didn't want to do it that way. I didn't want anybody to say that I was using my influence to help my family make money. And I have to say I had a big falling out with a member of my family, her father, over a landfill. He was involved in all of that, but that'd be what he did me when he made accusations that were baseless, on purpose, because I shut down his landfill that was operating in violation of Illinois environmental laws. He then made these accusations that's pretty much what brought the FBI into my life. And, you know, he's an old Chicago Ward boss, he understands how the system works. And he knew when he did that, he eventually retracted it because he was being threatened with a lawsuit by the person who made the accusation against, but he knew that was going to unleash the theories on me. And so he did that. I convinced without doubt that he did purposely. He's a clever, smart guy. Now he's my father and laundries elements of him that I love to this day. He's the grandfather, my kids, and I believe in forgiveness, and I've forgiven it. And when I'm with him, I'd bring it up. But what he was angry about was that he wasn't getting rich. While I was governor. He wanted to just quote unquote, big score. And he was maneuvering in all kinds of ways to try to do it, when I would directly tell him I wasn't going to do certain things. So I had to eventually do something that no governor has ever done. And that's the iron that I went to prison. But I actually issued an executive order on my own, to protect my administration and the people of Illinois, from my family getting rich while I was governor, and the executive order said that anybody related to me, whether it's my wife, my children were babies or a little girls at Samsung was not relevant. I father in law, my brother in law, my sister in law, my brother or my sister in law, my brother's wife, my nephew, anybody like that was related to me, were prohibited by law from doing any business with the state of Illinois. Now they could have to use my father's phrase lunched up on me, as just about every political family has done, the Americans have done it. Frankly, the daily families have done it. Oh, more than anyone else. Durbin's wife is a big lobbyist. She's a United States Senate. He's a United States senator sending federal money to Illinois, and she's lobbying on all kinds of things. Yeah, explains why he's become a millionaire in the United States Senator, we have Senator cullerton. Who was Think about this. In Illinois, he was the Illinois this the president is Illinois State Senate. At the same time, he was a practicing attorney. At the same time, he was a lobbyist who could legally lobby state government. So in other words, he could lobby himself on behalf of his client who's paying him a lot of money. How is that legal? Somebody asked me that the other day? And the answer is, it's legal because the same people who make the rules make him to benefit themselves. And that happens at the state level in Illinois, believe me, as you say, happens, even more so at the federal level in Washington. And you touched on some of those examples, like those military guys, who leave the military and go and join the political, nor the military industrial complex, making much bigger money at that level than they do at the state level. And in those cases, some of its life and death. They're part of the decision making that leads some of us some of our leaders to put us in adventures and faraway places where Americans die and they shouldn't be there.
rewinding a bit. Do you ever feel like you've talked about how you just I've heard you mentioned that before? That you feel like your father in law, Richard Mel that he put a little bit of a target on your back? Do you feel that way generally, like people around you sort of what they were doing sort of broad scrutiny on because, according to the feds according to like Patrick Fitzgerald, it's it was people like Christopher Kelly rezko. Of course resco had dealings with literally everyone in Illinois like doing the same shit. Joe Kerry, Joe, Joe
Kerry was is a scumbag who I'd never hardly knew Joe Kerry. And he, this guy's a total coward and a criminal who spent no time in prison. He flipped on everybody else for the stuff he was doing. He was the biggest supporter of my Republican opponent for governor in 2002. He was friends with him. You raise them Ready for Jim Ryan. He was not my guy. But he was part of that system that when I became governor, he was there. Yeah. And I guess he connected with those guys and like, then he he was on a trip to Washington with me once. But I was very he was not at all close to me by any means. Now Chris and Tony, we're now Tony resco. You should know had a closer relationship with a brock obama he sold him sold my house. He bought them now he bought them that lot. Think about this. Right there in your
I mean neighborhood where I grew up, right. Yeah.
So Obama buys the actual it's the two lots Obama buys the the mansion there after becomes US senator. Okay. At the same time, Michelle Obama works in some capacity for the University of Chicago hospital there, right hospital. He's now a US Senator sending federal money money to that hospital. And she's making something like $300,000 a year doing that, while he's a senator, that goes to the other thing that you were talking about is perfectly legal. Right. But even I wasn't doing that. Right. When one of the ironies I'm not claiming I'm a choirboy, and I'm an angel, I'm not claiming that. But on something like this, I felt like I should have complete separation. Anyway, resco buys that. Brock and Michelle Obama buy that house, that mansion, they don't have enough money to buy that adjoining lot. So they asked Tony resco to do it. He spent something like 700 to seven or $50,000. Yeah, buying that lot. And he paid the full price. He didn't negotiate it down the actual lot next door that the Obamas bought, the approvement was actually negotiated down. He didn't pay the list price. But Tony paid resco the list price for that joining lot. When the media discovered it, and they went easy on Obama. He asked resco to put up a fence and across all my $13,000 and Ted Tony paid that to was just an amazing fence. He had to separate the property so that Brock can have deniability now. Not illegal, but it sure does have a bad smell to it when you say okay, so I would say as I told my your daily once, as frustrating as it was because of rusko bringing problems to me, and that those were legitimate things that they were pursuing resco on. Those are his private business dealings and some of the shenanigans that he was doing, without me knowing in parts of administration. What I told the mayor Bailey, one of our dinners was, he's more Brock's more toned up than I am. But the stuff that Roscoe did and was doing, the stuff that Chris Kelly eventually was convicted on. They had nothing to do with me, I was not involved in any of those things. In fact, Chris Kelly, stuff had nothing to do with neither one of them were because they were raising money for me campaign funds. Neither one of them were charged with anything relating to improperly raising money. For me, the stuff was related to their business dealings and how they operated in their individual capacities. Not with regard to me, Chris Kelly, who took his life because of the pressure they were putting on him, didn't pay his full amount of taxes. He wrote off a gambling debt of something like $150,000, which was ridiculous to do, and wrong to do. But he caught got caught doing that had nothing to do with me. And then the other thing was evidently he was paying kickbacks to some guy at American Airlines who was given a roofing business at O'Hare, I knew nothing about that had nothing to do with me as governor. But they were so determined to destroy me that they were putting all this pressure on him to say things about me with Alan Dershowitz, the law professors cause composing not just singing but composing against somebody to perceive yourself. That what he did was he took his own life, and even reporting to prison because they were threatening him with more time and he wasn't going to do it. There's a lot wrong with the way these prosecutors operate. I won't go into all of that. And I will say, just briefly based on my long, unhappy journey, what I discovered was something that I never really knew never thought about before. Because I mostly trusted those people. I thought they were the good guys. But that whole federal criminal justice system is a broken corrupt system. And it's a racist system. And I saw black guys in prison. Yeah, friends of mine. Drug dealers. Yes. Guilty. Yes. But these unbelievable sentences that are given these guys on first offenses, nonviolent Yeah, 25 years destroying their lives, giving them no chance that a second chance. It's a bad system, and it's broken and corrupt. And it's an example of what is wrong with America today on almost every level. And you know what it is Felix goes to that corruption. Part Two goes to censorship goes to government surveillance, it goes to how we get our information. It's monopolies. It's unchecked power. And you know, and Lord Acton said, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So now you have the Silicon Valley, you know, with the power that they have, because there's no competition and they can get away and do whatever with whatever they want to do, and bring their power to bear. corporate media, the same thing. Political leaders in both parties, when they get that kind of power. They use it the same way. In Illinois, it was Madigan it was the epitome of that. And I just feel like any system that we have in America, whether it has to do with it Making our government more responsive and more honest, having our economic policies more just and fair, but also smart. It has to do with I believe, separating power, not allowing it to be concentrated in any one place. Because that's ripe for corruption and ripe for abuse.
Yeah. Now, I couldn't agree more, especially on federal prosecutors. I mean, it is the thing people have always said, when they want you they've got Yeah, yeah. You know, we don't really have a high success rate beating the feds and, you know, as you said, even people who are guilty, people are getting sentences that should never be given out in prisons. I mean, you were in, they put you in FCI, Englewood, Colorado, they put
me in a higher security prison where I was in there with murderers and gangbangers and cartel members and bank robbers, right. I'm the only governor to be put in a place like that, because I wouldn't play ball with them. And they felt like they'd squeeze me and I give in, and I just never was gonna do it. You know, I think about, you know, these federal prosecutors. We have a historic Mayor here, you know, she's a black woman. She's gay. And that's historic. And I was telling somebody the other day, I think she's been a terrible mayor, and maybe your viewers don't agree with that. But what I like about her is the I like these things about her that she's black, that she's a woman, and she's gay. What I don't like it. She's a former US Attorney. Yep, absolutely. That kills all the other three. Anyway, sorry, got I'm sorry.
No problem. Yeah, no, it is. It's an awful system. And as you said, I mean, monopoly power. And, you know, you mentioned how you always assume these were the good guys, I think most Americans kind of passively assume that. And it does take until they have some interaction with them. Right with even I mean, even federal prosecutors, police. You know, police always pull really high with people. You can have one bad experience, though. You can go your entire life not having one, you can have one bad experience where a cop is revenue collecting, or he, he just wants to feel some personal power over you. And you can realize how powerless you are
no question it goes to, again, human nature and the potential of people to abuse their power, and take advantage of others when they have unlimited power and unchecked power. It's why you have to be the system has to be so, so much better at putting in those checks and balances and being vigilant to protect the rights of the individual. Look, I was again eight years in prison. I mean, I was at the mercy of prison cars. You know, correctional officers, they're cops. Now my personal experiences that for you know, every bad cop, and there are bad cops, of course, I'm a victim of bad cops. Because I know I didn't break a single law and those people are liars. And they're corrupt. And they're scumbags. Okay, the people that did what they did to me, but in my experience for police officers, yeah, the bad ones. Of course there are but there's 10 good ones, maybe 100 good ones for every bad one. And I would say that that proportion of politicians, the bad ones, the good ones, isn't as good as that. No, probably not. Yeah, they're just, you know, and I would say it's more about being sincere versus being fake. For every sincere politician. There's 100 fake ones,
but don't you feel like okay, I, you know, in my opinion, I would think the ratio of bad cops to good cops, it's probably closer to what you would see in the US House of reps of bad the good and bad, my personal opinion. But like, okay, let's say it's, you know, one good one, or one bad 199 good ones. But if the good ones on the force, like he gets to retire, he gets to do all this shit to people, he gets to throw people's lives away. Don't the nine ones kind of become bad cops if they're just letting him do it?
Well, you know, you know, you talk about, I speak to my own personal experience. I still have to believe that as bad as the US Attorney's were that did this to me. And I have this bias now against Mayor Lightfoot, because she's one of them. But you see, what they do is they circle the wagons because they're part of the same group in the same organization. Yeah, so one others goes rogue, they protect them and cover up for them because they're part of the same team. And it's an us versus them mentality. And many of us have morphed into the very criminals are chasing us the same means the same immoral design as means to go after the criminals. They become that. And I think they don't do it purposefully. I just thinking that bet that Ward, it just happens. That's another reason why we've got to come up with some sort of ways to hold everybody accountable everywhere. And yes, you have a bad police officer on the streets, who does bad things like the cop in Minneapolis, make him and be responsible and hold that person responsible and accountable. And there needs to be more of that. I believe in every level of our society, including politicians, so and judges, not every judges on the level either. I'm sorry, go on. No.
Yeah, I mean, like, there are ones as dramatic as that guy in Pennsylvania who had to contract with the youth detention center was sending kids away who didn't even do anything, but even there even smaller corruptions, from you know, the lowest circuit court all the way the very top always Yeah, same things we talked about, but I am I am interested in how you how you came to sort of I mean, I think anyone going through a federal trial and being sent to a place, you know, a place that frankly shouldn't exist FCI Englewood, I would go through that. But could you describe your journey in that your, your, your journey, you know, being convicted because you there was about a year period where you were you were kind of you were really lobbying the public in a way. And later 2008 2009. And you were, I mean, I've known that you've always really liked Richard Nixon. Ribbit, you. You went to the Upper East Side to meet him when you were a kid. Yeah, you waited outside his apartment, but you kind of like he was really that you were defiant. And then, you know, your sentence. You're, you're in the feds? What was that journey? Like? Like? What are some of the people you talked to that sort of changed your changed your mind on that?
Well, you know, I could we should spend some time with us if you'd like. Absolutely. Because, you know, a lot of times, yeah, that's 2896 days. Yeah. And again, like I said, the first 32 months, I was in that higher security prison. And if you watch movies about what prisons look like, that's where I was, my home was a six foot by eight foot prisons, for cement walls, big heavy iron door that shuts you in a little window with these bars on it. bunk bed, me and another guy, I'm on the top bunk. And they, they restrict your movements. And they have all kinds of different rules that the Bureau of Prisons tries to enforce. But then there's also a culture in prison. That's very different from everyday life. It's a, it's purposely segregated. Yeah, long race, ethnicity, you know, so there's, you know, like, for example, in the, what they call the chow hall where you eat, and by the way, the food sucks, you can imagine, I mean, if your listeners are taxpayers and don't want to see their tax dollars being wasted, I can assure them, it's not being wasted on the food that the prisoners again, because it sucks, but when when you go to eat, and that chow hall, it's all segregated and divided. And you're not supposed to, like a white guy is not supposed to sit with a black guy said, roll, white guys not supposed to sit with the Latinos, or the Pacific Islander said, or the Native Americans said, because I was in a Western prison. So there were a lot of Native American inmates there too. And they live on the federal reservation. So even small crimes there, require that they go to a federal prison, not to a state prison. So you know, that was a new thing for me, because I got called in within, I don't know, the second or third day that I was there. I was called in by the top brass the captains and lieutenants. Because they said that it's they'd heard that I was walking on walking the track in the yard prison yard with a black guy. And he was he was, it's true. He was from Chicago, he thought he had already been in his 16th year, drug dealer from the south side. And his name was slim. Everybody had a lot of these guys. Not everybody, but a lot of these guys have nicknames. Yeah, yeah. And nice guy slim. And he was a homie, you know, he's from Chicago, I'm from Chicago. Right. So it was a natural thing to walk around and talk to him and develop a relationship with them. It's a very lonely place, as you can imagine, yeah. And they were telling me, you can't be doing that you can't be walking around or hanging around black guys, you got to stay with your own, they call it you got to ride with your own car, sort of, they break it down that way. I find that and I told them look, and they said, The reason is for your own safety. Because if you end up having a difference agreement with a person of another color, or race or you know, ethnic group, no one's gonna get your back if they feel like you're on your own your own people, the white guys won't protect you if you do that. And so they sent me to these two white guys who turned out to be white supremacist arion brothers. And I politely declined, you know, it was polite to go see them, but I had no interest in being involved. And over time, you know, I got my footing, and, frankly, was able to develop real close relationships with a lot of different guys, including a lot of black guys. And at one point in time, an older inmate who'd been there for on heroin for like 26 years older black guy, if, if, if they made a movie about him. Morgan Freeman would play him he had that look. And he was considered an elder statesman in that prison. Because a lot of the guys would come to him for advice, life advice. Yeah. And for legal advice, because he knew the law. He was one of those jailhouse lawyers. Yeah. I've been there for 26 years. Nice man from Chicago, Mr. B, God bless him, I miss him. He was close to me. It has been developed real close relationship with him. It was a big deal to him to make a statement shortly before he finally was able to go home, that he and I sit together in the black section. And then the next day, he would come to the white section and sit with me. And we did it with our making a big, like a big statement for civil rights. And it kind of petered out. No one really cared once we did it, but he made it mattered to him and it actually mattered to me and I was really happy to do that. So they had their rules. You know, there Yeah. culture. But they weren't hard and fast and they weren't enforced by the law by the law enforcement people, I think something like that would be hard for them to enforce. Yeah, they did discourage you from doing that sort of interaction with people from another place, which is really kind of going in the opposite direction of where I think the world should go. But yeah, that's probably for a different discussion. But I've got a million stories asked me a whole bunch. I feel like
they was like, they basically wanted you to join the Aryan Brotherhood.
I think they did. Yes. Yes. Insane. Yeah.
But I'm sure that happens in pretty much every federal prison. I'll be a lot of state once. That is insane.
Well, you know, I think because of, you know, my notoriety, I think that people were, there was a certain fear factor that a lot of those inmates had, because their concern was if they fucked around too much with me, they could get, you know, they can get in serious trouble, because that would be potentially newsworthy. Yeah. And so in some respects, that gave me a bit of a veil of protection. Where some other guys, some other white guy that comes into prison, they might have been forced that he be with them more often, or they would have been less. They were not forgiving, but they would have been, they might have like, I'm going to swear here because he swears he might have talked with him more because he had the temerity to go sit with the black guys and have lunch, that you know what I mean, they would force their own guys by punishing that guy. Yeah, but they wouldn't do that to me, because I had a certain notoriety about me, and I never feared it. By the way, by the way, when they did the, to me what they did, and I told that to these cops. Early on, I said, Look, I don't need protection. I don't get I fear, nobody in this fucking place. Frankly, what these motherfuckers did to me that now until I can really write these motherfuckers did to me, okay, these prosecutors, I fear nobody, they can't hurt me. Nobody can hurt me here any more than I've heard already. Okay, I'm going to do what I feel is right, I'm gonna follow your rules. But that no written rule, and therefore I'm not following it. And I'm just you know, and I'm not gonna spend a whole life trying to be someone who honestly tries to live by, you know, my Christian faith. You know, love your neighbor. And now suddenly walk away from that because, you know, you guys have a certain culture here that I don't frankly agree with and because it's not you're not requiring me to do it by law. I'm not doing it. And so I had that attitude where I was so lonely and heartbroken and missing my young children my wife and I live was brought to ruin it was filled with bitterness and anger at those sons of bitches who do what they did to me corrupt motherfuckers you feel abandoned and betrayed by people you thought you can rely on and then they run from you. You know, politics are rough and tumble business. Harry Truman said if you want a friend in Washington, get a dog. Yeah, right. He's talking about politicians. And once the shit hit the fan, they all ran. It's funny, because the day before I got arrested, I'm the Governor of Illinois, the fifth largest state at that time. I can just about get anybody on the telephone, right, including the President. Then when I got arrested, no one's calling me back in. Right? Yeah, that's surprising human nature. But there I am now in prison, and I'm beginning as long as journey 14 fucking years. must learn too much.
Not as much as you want. Don't even think about it. Okay. No, I swear to God, yeah. No one's regulating us.
Alright, well, 14 years. And you know, it's you can't even see the flicker of a light at the end of the tunnel. It's so far away before I can come home and be with my family again. That's where I want to be my little daughter Annie, who today just left for college? Yes. 18 she was eight when I left. And my daughter Amy was 14. So you know when when they do that to needy and you're in that place, and you got that long, long way to go. You know, party wishes, like, you know, frankly, I wish somebody would just shoot me. You know what I mean? I would
Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you didn't? I'm not gonna say that you want him to die. But it seemed like when you got in, from what you're saying, it sounds like you didn't care if you lived or died. You thought if if death comes for you, well, that's my number that's in God's hands, right? I don't give a shit anymore. Is that kind of what you felt
more than that? I felt that and I felt to quote one of the great Greek tragedy and Sophocles that that the last the deliverer. This one is tragedies, right? Yeah. It frees you up from them. And you know the pain that you're feeling you know, and and all the just that heartache and that loss that loneliness and all those other things I just described would have been liberating in some respects now that I want to die really no. And even if I did, there's no way I could you know why? Because I have two little girls. Yeah. And I don't want to hurt them any more than they've been hurt already. And one of the things I learned when I was in prison Felix was I want I will say this, you can do a lot of reading, you can catch up on your reading, and I read a lot. You can also exercise and workout a lot which I did. And that was very good physically, but it was also good from an emotional standpoint, you know, for morale, you know, to keep yourself physically active. But reading a lot and I read a book written by a guy by the name of Viktor Frankl. It's called Man's Search for Meaning. Yeah, I read it three times in those. It's an amazing book. Yes, you wrote that book in nine days. Yeah, so more than 12 million copies worldwide. It's a small little book. And I recommend that everyone should read it, everybody should read it. Because he talks about, and what he went through is 1000 times worse than me. He was a Holocaust survivor, he lost everything. His loved one includes loved ones, including his beloved wife. But he says in the book, and he talks about how even then just the contemplation just I finish the thought, he's in Auschwitz, by the way, just the thought of his wife was enough to give him purpose, to live and meaning, just being able to contemplate her, the consciousness of that. And then of course, as you you write on the book, you get the strong sense that, you know, when you find yourself in a situation, that's really difficult, and doesn't have to be as difficult as that just everyday people go through real hard times all the time. And they do it with quiet heroism, right. And enormous writing books behind them. And I'm making movies about most everybody, but they're dealing with their difficulties heroically. And I think what gets most people motivated. And I This was very helpful to me was the point that he makes in his book, Viktor Frankl that you have people in your life who you'd love. And even if you don't want to have to endure the things that you're enduring, you do it for them. And you, you have that higher responsibility. And that just that realization gave me it was inspiring to me. And it motivated me to be strong as much as I can. And to set the best example I could for my kids and, and my wife, but moreso, my kids, because Patti strong, and she's wonderful, but that that was in some respects, I would say a godsend that I discovered that book early on in prison for medically helpful to me, but over the three times during those eight years away,
and you think that's kind of that's kind of what like, got you out of not caring if you thought I have to live for somebody correct? out? Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if it Look, I'll give you a quick little example of how brutal that experience was. I mean, I laugh about this, I even laughed about it, then. But it's, you know, the, you have to discipline your mind when you're going through something like that, you know, when you're leaving home as you as I did for as long as I was going. And in my I tried to approach it one day at a time, right? Yeah, not look too far ahead. I had hopes. I believe deeply in my in my appeal, and felt like if I get an honest, the public court, there's no way we can lose this. They're using an unlawful standard to convict me a standard that if it were applied to everybody in politics, presidents, governors, Senators, congressmen, they all go to prison to you can ask for campaign contributions is from someone that's currently has an interest in what you're doing in government. So long as you don't threaten expressly or promise expressly, there was never that they call that a quid pro quo. They don't even allege a quid pro quo in my case. So I figure I have a chance to win. I mean, I'll win if they just follow the law. But I had to fear you know, you're up against the powerful forces, they can't let this turn the other way. Because they hijack the governor from 13 million people in Illinois, they got to bury this and whitewash it, which is what they ultimately did. Yeah, even the appellate courts aren't honest. Okay. But they couldn't uphold the fun, right? The Senate seat one because government was shut down. So they upheld three fundraising requests, where I don't even make the requests. But anyway, so there I am. But I've got some hope that maybe I might get lucky in the appellate court. So the 14 years, you know, I looked at it, like, you know, when the appeal hits, it was, it would probably take a few years. So I was able to discipline my mind and not let myself think too far ahead. Because that's a daunting thing. So I don't know, the fourth day there. I get called in by the case manager, she wants to read for you. You know, my file, you know, it's the beginning of this process and orientation that every new inmate goes through. And she's a nice woman, and she's going, being professional about what she's doing. And she's going through the whole thing. And she says, going through the paperwork, and she says, Okay, well, she says I, here's your exit date. So she's gonna tell me when I get to go home, right? I never wanted to think that far ahead, because it's fucking scary. Yeah, I wasn't letting my mind think that but I had no choice. She starts she's telling me this. She says, Well, your exit date. And by the way, this was probably I reported to prison on May 15. Or March 15. March 15. Thursday. 2012. So this is probably that Monday. Okay. Yeah. So that'd be what March 19, maybe? March 20 2012. There I am sitting with her. She's going over my file. And she says, Well, your exit day is may 2024. Okay, now that's a body blow, man. I'm sitting in here that Yeah, man. Right. This is March of 2012. She's telling me I'll finally Be able to get to go home in May of 2024. Okay, so she says that to me, she said, Do you understand that? And I grunt out an acknowledgement, yes. Okay. But I mean, I've been hit by my Tyson. Yeah, solar plexus, man. I mean, I'm bent over here, but I'm not showing it, you follow me? Do you then says, but I've got some good news for you. And I grunt this out, I moan it out. And I say, well look at epi. And she says, Well, I'm going to recommend six months halfway house. So I'm quickly calculating our mind. Oh, if I behaved myself real well, I'll be in a halfway house a few days before Christmas. 2023 that much comfort in what she's telling. Yeah.
11 and a half years versus 12. Yeah.
Right. And I bring that up to point out how well just how long it was, you know, and how, in what you're facing. And you know, frankly, while it was really bad for me, and I had a lot worse than a lot of other people, mine was worse than a lot of other people. On the other hand, there's a lot of people in there a lot worse than me. So, you know, I guess, suppose I suppose a lot of it's relevant. But I mean, I should say, relative, a lot of its relative, but in any way you coded. It's bad. And it's hard. And I've been very lucky and fortunate, though, to have, you know, loving life loving daughters. And I got really lucky with President Trump. Sure. I'm glad I did Celebrity Apprentice.
Well, I mean, Patty, Patty campaigned really hard for like, even before Trump, she was really out there, trying to try to point out that, you know, as you said, that if you applied the same standard to you, as you did to everything else, everyone would be locked up that this is a ridiculous sentence. But yeah, now President Trump, he commuted your sentence last year through executive order,
and he Trump President Obama, you know, nide really didn't never did anything for Trump. But I was the first governor to endorse Obama, when he was considered still a longshot against Hillary. Yeah. And so he gets credibility right off the bat, because he gets a democratic governor from the fifth biggest state, supporting him from his home state. And there were a lot of other things that we did to help him including raise money. And when they arrested me, you know, you know how it works. Felix, they, they don't, they don't want you to talk about the guy beneath you. Right. It's about going after the guy above you. But there's only one person above a governor, because there's 50 governors, 100 senators, there's only one president and Obama initiated the conversations. That's undeniable. That's one testimony. That's what exactly happened. And they knew that. And so they've got me in custody. And I'm not going to talk about me or him, because I didn't do anything wrong. As far as I know, he didn't either. But he has to know, I could have easily made my life a little easier. And I, frankly, was willing to go up and compose against him. Which I was never going to do.
What what do you what what would you say? What would you have given them?
Well, the way it works is what I was never an option. I never even thought about it. So it was I don't really know how to answer that. But the way it works is they would suggest to your lawyer, this corrupt these people are Yeah, you log in here, if you can get your client to say X, Y and Z. You know, we'll give them 18 months. You follow me? Yeah, that's how they do it. They floated through the lawyer so you can't they don't do it to you. It's so fucking corrupt. Okay, and so they would have done that with my attorneys because they had me in custody. They rested a sitting governor says Clark morning with SWAT teams around my house, that's never done that's designed to break your will to resist scare the shit out of you and make you just start getting on your knees and crumble and tell them whatever they want to hear. Right. That's what they do for your tactic. But I would you know, and I think they miscalculated because I think they thought I would do it. And I was never gonna do it. Just everybody romney did it to me, right? Yeah, but I wasn't gonna do anybody. And I certainly wasn't gonna do to myself, because I know I didn't break the law. And I was elected by the people to fight for the constitution and for the rule of law. Now, if I'm a businessman, Felix, and I'm facing what I'm facing, and they have this uncontrolled power and unlimited resources, and they can try 100 times, if they don't convicted the first time what they didn't, in my case, the Crimea second time. That's another unusual thing. Only I get that Senator Menendez gets this case thrown out here after they didn't convict them with a steel representing New Jersey. Yeah, right. Right. john edwards doesn't get tried a second time. But they did it to me. Anyway, my point is, I feel like, by the way, Obama's best friend was given a top position by me, the Illinois Department of Public Health. His friend, Eric Whitacre, Obama would ask for stuff and we would do it. Yeah. So then my troubles happen. And I get it. He's the first black president, any presidents big? Yeah. And sometimes you you know, you take the hit for somebody in a higher position, because there's a greater good that's being served. Yeah. And now we have this historic event with the first black president is it? I don't want to screw that up. And I get that he's got to run for me. And he probably made a deal with those people that he wasn't going to do anything to help me. Okay, I know that now looking back, but I was never gonna do anything to hurt him. But years go by. I'm not getting justice in the courts. Unlike the other, what is it like 100 something 1000 plus federal inmates, I have access to the Democratic President Obama through third parties, like David Axelrod, who used to work for me and work for Obama and working with Patty, to make the case to Obama to send me home, sent letters written by my daughter's same age as his two beautiful daughters talking about, would you help we just send your father home? And we were sensitive to Obama's politics, we felt like, Okay, well, he's gonna be leaving January 20 2017. He doesn't need the visual of him leaving the White House at the same time. I'm leaving the shithouse. Right. So just cut my sentence in half from 14 years to seven. Yeah. Which would mean I will have served more time in federal prison at any government history. George Ryan didn't do that. He didn't do that. And people died in his situation, right, young kids. He did last time. Just do it. I'll leave in October of 2017. Seven years, you can easily justify that just do it that way. And I like I said he knew about it because people were directly were talking to him about it. And when he allowed some FA L and terrorists to get out of prison, let them out. And then a guy that was the Chelsea Manning who was in there for treason. I don't really think you can call that treason. Okay, maybe not. But But that was the charm. So right. The crime? Yeah, I
don't think she no one's ever demonstrated that her leaks led to anyone's death, even though I mean, like, the things that Chelsea Manning revealed. Those were war crimes. Those were good. She's revealing crimes. Like I don't know if you've seen the Collateral Murder video of it. No, it's awful stuff. You know what, what we were doing overseas? Yeah, terrible stuff. And, you know, they tortured her. They tortured her. They they had her in isolation for a really long time. And she's, she's out now she seems to be doing well. But yeah, no.
Well, he loved what he was letting her out. Yeah. And the days leading up to and I felt like, well, if he's doing that, and he's doing the FA ln terrorist at one of the globe, federal buildings, and both of them did time. Yeah. She she did some, like seven years, I think, maybe a little bit more. I'm
not quite sure. But yeah, it's about like, seven, eight years. Those
were indications to me, he's gonna, you know, I'll probably I should get a commutation he'll probably send me home to cut my sentence in half. And he didn't. And well, that was of course, disappointing. Right. Why do you think he didn't do that? Because he was involved in the case, because he started the whole thing. I think he did it. I think it's, I think because he was the one who sent the emissary to begin the conversations about making a deal on Valerie Jarrett for the Senate seat. And I think they made a deal with him, the prosecutors immediately after that, he does nothing to help me. They'll do nothing to go after him. And it's unusual that the United States Attorneys appointed by a Republican President Bush appointed Fitzgerald and those people, okay, would stay on after the democratic comes in. But suddenly, they were able to stay on for many years after that. didn't leave until they threw me out. threw me in prison. They stayed just to get me and Obama let him stay. That was part of the deal. And I think, and I think part of the deal was, he wouldn't do anything later on either to help. I think that's what happened. I don't think it was out of meanness. I think it was out of just selfishness.
Well, yeah, no, yes. Obama's pretty selfish politician. And, I mean, yeah, I mean, even even with the idea of like, keeping up appearances, it's not like Obama is really incredibly involved in, in democratic party politics. At this point. He's media personality. He's he's a he's a producer, he's not a, you don't really see him in democratic politics, unless it's like making phone calls in the last minute, before Super Tuesday to get people buying buy it and to, you know, break the NBA strike. And so we also saw him do that year, but like, generally not super involved. So you, you think he made like an eight year long deal with Fitzgerald?
I do. So, you know, the three or two was, that's an FBI interview. And when you're the on the on the bad end of what they're doing, like you're the one the defendant, the defendant has a right to all three of the interviews that the FBI conducts with all the principles involved in the case. Therefore, I had a right, legal right to Obama's real tools to see what he was saying about the sale of the senate seat, the alleged sale of the senate seat. And to this day, they never gave it to us, and that that alone should have reversed the case. They denied they're covering up what he told the FBI in that interview days after I was arrested. And another thing that is a matter of fact, is one of the three or two that we did have is Rama manuals, and rahm emanuel was asked by the FBI when they interviewed him. When was the first time you heard that the governor was arrested? He said, half an hour before when Pat Fitzgerald that's the US Attorney called me to tell me that we're going to go arrest the sitting governor. Now that's very inappropriate, not on Rob's part. But on their part. Yeah, sure. On the prosecutors, Rahm was all over those FBI tapes with me, giving me advice, giving me suggestions asking me for stuff. Yeah, asking me for political favors. And for them to contact an interested party, directly interested party in a case to let them know they're going to arrest me half an hour is inappropriate and wrong. Yeah, they did that too. So I think that, I mean, it was a political hit job. And once it happened, and they stabbed me in custody, and so I wasn't gonna play ball and compose against anybody, including Rahm or Obama. They went to those guys and made a deal with them. And then I was pretty much, you know, thrown under the bus. And the my old friends were gone. And all he tell you is, has to be the hand of God, he looks that I would do Celebrity Apprentice, because right, think about this. I never watched that show. I met Trump one time before two times before. And he has me on that show. And he's extremely nice to me. And kind to me on a personal level, off camera, you never see. Never my imagining in 2009 we're filming that, in the last episode was 2010. March February 2010. That he go on to be president united states never you even think this guy's ever going to run for office? Why would he? And that he does and becomes president. And he's my last line of defense. And he saves my ass. I mean, it's really, to me, it's an example of divine intervention.
Have you? Did you talk to him after? Have you? You talked to him recently?
No, no, I have thanked him through the media. And I'm always going to be grateful to him personally. And yeah, you know, I, I'm really, I'm not at all objective when it comes to Trump on a personal level because of what he did for me, you know? Yeah, I mean, basically gave me my life back. Yeah. No. Understandable is he got nothing for it. I mean, how does that help on a democratic governor? That's true.
That is one thing he did. I do not see how it could benefit. Yeah.
I it doesn't benefit him at all.
I mean, um, is there anyone from that period that you still talk to? I mean, I know. You know, your father in law. That's your father. Yeah. Like that's, that's family. But like, anyone you haven't talked to Joe Carey in a while.
I never really knew Joe carrier, but the guy's like, twice. I'd like to kick that guy's ass. He's a fucking coward, motherfucker. And he's a corrupt motherfucker. Sorry. No, I don't if I ever see him, I'm kicking his ass. I'm also patient. I can do it. That fucker will cry. Alright, sorry.
No, yeah, I was I was reading up on Carrie before this. And then, you know, the writing on him is hilarious, because it's it's like, he's a high. He's a you know, super dry democratic strategist. He worked for Carter's reelection campaign. Then. He ran Mondale's campaign in the Midwest where you lost every single state except Minnesota. Oh, is that
right? Yeah. He's close to Gore. He used to brag to me about core I've met this guy like three times, maybe two in my life. Yeah, maybe three. But he was supposedly a gore guy. And then when the pressure came on, he just like, totally crumbled and would say whatever they want. If they say, you know, look, I think there's a responsibility when you know, there's wrongdoing. Yeah. To to do it. You know, that's like, you're not that's in prison. That's like, they'll fuck you up. If you're a snitch. Yeah, yeah. But I don't I don't think that's wrong. When there's wrongdoing. I think you have an obligation to in politics. Yeah, to cooperate with them, right. So I'm not I don't want to be too critical of that. But he just a sniveling coward, hypocrite, corrupt guy who made a lot of money being a cheater and a corrupt coward, and other people's stuff. And then when the shit hit the fan, he was the first one with no backbone to you know, to do what he did on other people. And whatever he said about me had no impact on my case, because it what none of that stuff was even charged. But in the second trial, anyway, was ridiculous stuff in the first trial. I don't even know if that was his stuff. But I met a lot of guys like that in prison. You know, it's funny, because my wife Patty, and my kids would come and visit me, you know, sometimes, in the beginning was maybe two or three times a year and then as time went by, I was maybe once a year or once every 18 months, just a little harder for them. And it's hard for the kids to go out to then get a taste of their dad and then have to lead. Yeah, right. And so it was better the way it evolved. But there were visits all through those years. And somewhere down the road, probably. I don't know the third or fourth year. I think one of the visits Patti asked me, you know, maybe I don't even know if she asked me but I think I may have just told her I was just telling her about white collar bullshitters and in how I felt closer to to the drug dealers? Yeah. You know, because they were, you know, they were businessmen and entrepreneurs. And they, they were selling a product that was illegal, and they should be held responsible, treated justly and fairly. And mercifully, I believe everybody should there should be elements of that for everybody, but that they were just better guys that a lot of these white collar criminals are such fucking bullshitters
your Jeff Skilling in their incident killing was
in that higher security prison with me actually. I am he he didn't strike me that way like I'm describing. I didn't really know him that well. I wasn't that close to him. And you know, he is just that he didn't do anything wrong. I don't know. I don't know. I know that the Arthur Andersen case it was connected to Enron was all crap was bullshit, too. It was the Supreme Court ruled nine to nothing they did anything wrong. Yeah, this federal prosecutors now on CNN did that to them. He should be in prison. But I'm talking about these white collar. Guys like hedge venture capital guys, hedge fund guys Ponzi scheme guys. Kahneman The Economist. Yes. They're liars. And they just tell lies. And they're, they're cowards to joke curious that guy. He's one of those. And if he was in prison to get his ass kicked, I'm sorry. Is there? Is
there anyone I was interested in? Because it sounds like I mean, like prison is hell federal prison. another layer of hell. But it sounds like you, you know, you had a group of friends in there. And you know, socially at least, you know, you could find a way to like, day by day, get along with people and even people, you know, you look forward to talking to you. But was there anyone in there? That like they just they instantly just didn't like you?
Yes, yes, of course. And they that's not surprising, you know, but I have to say this, Felix. I got to know a lot of guys there. Again, it was a long time. And I have warm feelings for a lot of those guys. And now that I'm off probation, I communicate with some of them. And we're going to try to help one of them my friend, spade, the black guy, his name is Joan era more. What a great guy. He's done. 13 1213 years already. First time nonviolent drug offender I talk to his mom all the time, trying to help him I tried to help with the Trump administration. Maybe we could have had a chance to help him had there not been the January 6 ritual. Yeah. Now it's harder because Biden's there and I'm sort of my politics is I'm sort of orphaned you know, I don't have I don't have a home. Yeah. And I'm prying through third parties to see if I can help him. And there's some others. So what I guess what I'm telling you is there are a lot of guys there. Almost all of them guilty. You know, some are innocent. And I'm not the one to judge it. But I have to believe I'm thinking I'm not the only one they did it to some of the other guys that were told some of their stories, made perfect sense that they were extorted to plead guilty to stuff because they were threatened with life sentences that they didn't. Yeah. And these prosecutors boast of a 97% conviction rate because they got the rules that are all in their favor. All the resources in the world got a fair fight at all. It's, there's no, it's it's a it's a pretest to think that there's such a thing as a fair trial in that federal system. It's just doesn't exist. And
I mean, you see what happened. I don't know how much you followed the Sackler case, I don't think about it now. But the you know, the family that made billions of dollars of opiates knowingly pushed opiates on now, got people knowingly addicted, profited off of it. But I mean, I always think it's interesting when they, the feds fight a case against people who also have virtually unlimited resources of family with billions of dollars. It always the sacklers had to pay like a few billion, not not necessarily an amount of money they'll miss or even notice in long run. And usually when the feds are fighting someone with at least they can spend a few 10s of millions, hundreds of millions. It doesn't seem to go the same
way. You mean they they get a better deal?
Yeah, yeah, but no, no. Yeah, the sacklers are not Yeah, they're not taking that flight. They're not going to the feds,
right. So you know, they these federal prosecutors get they get invested in the case. Yeah. And they, their whole careers now rested on that, and if they don't bring the guy down, their careers harmed and so they get it becomes not at all about justice for what's right, it becomes about their career. And if they can bring down somebody in a prominent place like a governor, those people you're talking about, and maybe they did it those people I don't know. But if they don't get something, they're not going to get the big career advancement they're looking for or they might even have difficulties in their careers so they pull out all stops and so after my first trial, they were dangling real light sentence 18 months if I give it Yeah, they dangle that it was not a hard offer but was dangled they cut my brother loose and they had my older brother who was totally honest and innocent
and you got you guys would have never given them each other up. Like that's always a sense I got you guys are very close always have been.
Our relationships been harmed very much by this my brother wrongfully was accused of all those things that he was never going to Like, you know, make things up against me, right. But after the second first trial, they got to him, and they cut his cake. They cut him loose. He was before that they were trying to get him to get me to plead guilty. Yeah. Which I wasn't going to do. And I remember the conversation vividly and tell them I'm sorry, I can't do it. Yeah, that person raises like this. I know. It's terrible what they've done to you. But you know, none of this is we've done nothing wrong. Anyway, they tested that didn't work, they still cut them loose, because he was a very compelling witness in the first trial. But I think they made a deal with him where he wouldn't agree to testify on my behalf in the second trial. Yeah, he took the Fifth Amendment, you know. And my point is, they were willing to just take 18 months, if I would just give in, because, again, they knew how corrupt it was what they were doing that if they didn't get me, they'd be vulnerable. At some point. I think that explains a 14 year sentence eventually bury me bury the truth, and have people have short memories and forget about all of it. And they can go on and become multimillionaire lawyers, which is what's happening now with books, some of them, and one of them is actually a judge. Yeah. Which is, you know, anyway. At least I'm home, you know, yeah, I've learned a lot. And frankly, I'll say this to Felix, you know what, I'm not here to espouse any kind of religious view on anybody. Yeah. But that whole experience brought me closer to my God. In this give me a better perspective on things, I was able to read the Bible in ways and prisons that I never read it like that before. Because I was always so busy trying to get ahead. And they're, the object isn't to get things done in the course of a day, the object is to get through the day, yes. And use things to help you get through the day, that's your object. What can best help you get through the day, in the weeks, the months, the seasons in the years, right? And reading the Bible, reading history books, even literature, even Shakespeare, believe it or not, was really helpful to me. And it gave me a better perspective. So I'm what I'm saying to you is, I truly believe God has a plan for us. It's, it's for us to try to figure it out. And then the trust in it, and then do the best we can to follow what we think is what he wants us to do. For me. I feel like everything I went through, gives me a better appreciation for other people's hardships and their suffering and their difficulties. And I would like somehow to be in a place where I can be more helpful to people who are going through their difficult times, even if not, I do nothing else. But by example. You know, look, you're going through a tough time. But look what I just got through, and I'm still standing. And I frankly feel like I'm fitter than I was. I'm smarter than him was. Oh, great. Yeah, I feel like, right, thank you. So even if I just do that, if I'm just helpful to somebody, and they're going through something hard, and they can say, Well, he did it. I can do it, too. I think that that that'll be a very good thing. I do cameos. You know what those are? Oh, yeah, no, right. People that hire me. Let's do a shout out for somebody whose birthday their dad their mom, whatever. Yeah,
yeah. Our friend, my friend Tom got on there. He's not famous. But oh, he's he found a way to weasel on there. Okay, yeah.
Some other requests I get are, can you give my friend a pep talk? gov, he just got fired. He's going through some difficult times. You know what that's like, and yeah, I'm out. I love doing those. And you know, they're supposed to be 30 seconds long, I do right up to the 10 minute limit. And I try to give them as much stuff as I can to help some guy or woman who's going through hard times. And so I feel like as bad as it's been. I have so much to be fortunate, blessed. Lucky. I'm lucky and grateful. You know, the Vegas oddsmakers had it nine to one after I was arrested, and my wife Patti was gonna leave. And the statistics are not betting but they're fact. Yeah, for guys in prison for more than four years. There's a better than 90% chance that she doesn't stay. Yeah, right. Especially when he's looking at a long, long time. Yeah, which is what I say. Right, destroys families. And Patti didn't leave. And she was instrumental in getting me home. And the best thing about her is, she's a wonderful mother, and our kids, in spite of it all, knock on wood, are doing just fine. And so I have a lot to be grateful for. And I feel like I frankly, think my you know, I think my story's not over yet. I think there's a lot of work to do.
So what I mean, I know you have a you have a show now. And that is is that the tract, you figure? Do you think that media generally do you think that's, that's where you're gonna see where the story takes you?
You know, I hope not. I hope not only that, but I would like that to be part of it just because you can reach a lot of people that way. Yeah. And it can lead to other things. I have to play a role in criminal justice reform. I'm a little disappointed that I'm not involved in that as I'd like with some of the organizations I think they're afraid of being associated with me. And that is a little unfortunate, because I feel like I can really be helpful, but I'm not going to give up on that because I very much want to be active in in it. I feel that's part of what God would like me to do because there has to be a reason why I saw that. Look, I feel like I was a great governor. I talked a little bit about some of the stuff I we did open retellings and other thing by the way. Yeah. Here's an area. I didn't Do good at and that's clemencies. And it's something like 60, or whatever that number is not a lot done so many more. And I would have done a lot more heavy. Let me finish my tenure at my terms term of office, because when I was leaving office, I would have done a lot, which is what customarily happens, but I did them along the way. And I regret it terribly that I didn't do more. And I didn't know. You see, I didn't go to the office every day saying, Get me a pile of clemency requests. I want to read those. It was never on my radar. I didn't campaign on that and run for that when I was knocking on doors, meeting voters campaigning around the state. Very few people would talk to me about any of those issues. I'd hear them a little bit in the black community. But for the most part, I wasn't getting it. Yeah. So I didn't feel like that was anything that had this sort of grassroots organic demand from the voter. And it was anything that was a priority of mine. I learned a hard lesson I should it should have been. And I could have done so much more in that area. Did 60 whatever I did, no, not nearly enough. And I'll say this about Pritzker, who I don't like and I took he called Trump twice to try to keep me in prison. I made this guy the director of the Illinois Human Rights Commission. I made them up gamma expired Khoisan as FBI tapes, they asked me to make them senator. And when I said I couldn't do that. He asked what I make them a what I appoint him as treasurer comptroller, because the governor can do that. He thought there might be a vacancy there. I said I'd consider that. So he and I had a good relationship. I feel like I did a lot of good stuff for him. I always liked them. And then I was shocked that when Trump talked publicly about let me go home in August of 2020, JB Pritzker, the Democratic governor, who I had made the director of the Illinois Human Rights Commission called them not once but twice, pressing them to keep me in prison. And this is a guy Pritzker is always pissing on Trump. He's got the audacity, the hutzpah to call Trump to say, keep me in prison. He's got young children like I have, you know, it gets personal when he's doing it just to you. But it gets really personal when you think he's depriving my daughters of their dad coming home. Why did he do I don't like that fat fuck anymore.
It's fine. It is fine. Why don't you do that? I don't know going out of his way to do that. That's crazy.
I think he's afraid of his FBI tapes, stuff that I know about him. And you know, what some some of the stuff that he was saying. I think he's also got his own problem with that tool, that gate thing where he was trying to avoid paying property tax.
Do you think? Do you think that's big? I mean, do you think he'll ever get the toilet gig thing? Do you think that that will really go anywhere?
I don't know why. It's just I'm trying to you're asking me, why would it what motivate them to do? Yeah, because that was good to him right here. I'm just speculating. It could have been that Madigan was pressing on to do it. Yeah, maybe. And, you know, he gave Madigan $10 million. You know, and Madigan was the boss man down there. And, you know, Illinois fucked up because a Madigan for all those years. It could have been that too, you know, but he did it. And that's something that was it's just hard to forgive. Right? I like to think that I'm forgiving. But you know, I'm not gonna forget it. And yeah, but I went off on a tangent. I was talking about something else when we're talking about clemency. Yeah, I'll say this. I was gonna play actually praise. Pritzker. Yeah. Yeah. He seems to be doing pretty good in that area. Absolutely. I think he deserves credit for that. And otherwise, I think he sucks.
I you know, I personally have been pleasantly surprised by him. I, you know, I wasn't during that race. You know, I haven't lived here No, while I live in New York now, but I was I was interested in Daniel best. I don't think Daniel Biss was that great. But I never heard of him wasn't exactly okay. Said, think Evanston guy, and he was he was sort of running in like the Warren lane. Oh, the primary okay. He was. He snagged an alderman I liked his San Carlos Rosa over a BDS over boycotting Israel, which like, I know that you and I, we probably differ on a lot of foreign policies. But I don't see what why would the Lieutenant Governor of Illinois have to like have, why would they think that we have to have unconditional support for Israel? Who cares? So the kind of Governor of Illinois, and this kicked him from the the ticket and sort of imploded his campaign it came down to that lesser candidate versus Pritzker. Oh, I
see. Yeah. And Bobby Kennedy son ran in that race suit, right. Was his son. I thought it's for Kennedy. Yes. Oh, that's
his son. Yeah. Oh, wow. I thought it was a nephew. For some reason.
He's the son. I know. A little bit very little. But um, well, 13 kids, you know, Robert,
oh, yeah. There you go. Yeah,
I remember I was in prison. I knew that it was JB and Barbara Kennedy son. Yeah. And I was I was actually for JP, you know, just on a personal level, just because I knew him better and like, but on the other hand, there was a part of me that felt and the stars are for Robert Kennedy because of giving his life for his country the way he did 42 years old and was killed on the sixth of June. Yeah. 68. You and I've had a discussion about
we've Yeah, we disagree on this. I'm gonna I'm gonna send you after this is gone. I'm in I'm going to give me your dress. I'm sending you a book on this. There's I think I'm old. I yeah, I think you have an open mind. Yeah, I think. Yeah, our friends. True and on they did an amazing episode with the author, Lisa PS on the assassination of RFK. But yeah,
and there's incredible evidence to think that Sirhan Sirhan was not the shooter. Yes. Interesting.
Well, Kennedy was shot in the back. Okay. Yeah. And sarahan from the front, the amount of bullet holes do not match the amount of shots that serons gun could hold a million things.
Yeah, I'd be happy to look at that. Look, in view of what's happened to me with the federal government. All those are possible you There you go. Who knows? Could have been a CIA? Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. See that kind of stuff. I would dismiss completely before what happened to me now? It's all very plausible to me, including President Kennedy, JFK. assassination. You mentioned Nixon A while ago. I like them off from that here. Isn't that funny? Not all of them. But based on like, because he came from humble origins, like I did, you know, he worked his way up, and he had a lot of ups and downs. And he was, you know, kind of a character, that style of his and but he never quit, right? Yeah. The Kennedys. I love the Kennedys, too. And yet they were, you know, JFK and Nixon ran against each other in 1960. And Bobby Kennedy was in a good position potentially, to win that democratic nomination, Chicago 68. up against the machine of the Democrat Party, Johnson and Humphrey was the ultimate. That was still gonna be a tough battle for RFK. But I think he would have gotten it. And that would have been Bobby Kennedy against Nixon is 68 that
I think RFK would have absolutely won.
I do too. Now. Yeah, I do, too.
Yeah. Ended up I don't, Humphrey. I mean, I hate to say it, I did not think a Minnesotan will ever win the presidency. Minnesota. I mean, I think in this era, I'm gonna happen. Why why Minnesota? I don't know. I don't know. I think it's like Arizona. It's just one of those states. That's cursed. Yeah. Well, I mean, Minnesota is a great state. I love it. They went to school there. Great state. I do not think they will. They will get a president.
Yeah. Well, Humphrey and Mondale didn't do it. Right. Exactly. And McCain and Goldwater didn't
do it. Yeah. I see. Some, some places are just cursed in that aspect. All right. I am very interested in your tenure as governor, though it's okay. to rewind a bit. I mean, I think in your career, there are things that, you know, we would disagree on, like, I would say the main thing that you and I would differ on, I would say, like Iraq war vote. You're the only Yeah, the Illinois Democrats. Yes.
Let's talk about that.
What did you do? Do you regret that?
Yes. They lie these. They lied. I love I want to talk about that. I do that in Afghanistan. And I'll tell you a story about two stories about Bernie Sanders, because he was a congressman. Yeah. And I remember when the Patriot Act passed. I remember seeing them like one no vote. I'm thinking man who will note again, this was after 911. Yeah, it was just shocking and terrible. It was Bernie Sanders. I remember thinking, this guy's crazy. What he was right. Yeah, that was the one. He made the right vote and the rest of us made the wrong
vote. He was Yes. In Afghanistan was Barbara Lee, who is there in Afghanistan. Okay.
I know. I'm talking about the Patriot Act. Oh, yeah. mistake. He was Yes. That Afghanistan. Yeah. Well, what was the Iraq was he know, he was known? Yeah. I'll tell you why. So I sat in the House Armed Services Committee. They all came before us, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, all the top generals, CIA classified briefings, and they all swore up and down. Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. I remember vividly asking myself, can this be? Could they lie? I remember asking myself If this is true, we have to go in there. But could they be lying? I remember asking myself, could they be lying? And I was still relatively Junior. My experience there I was in my third term is congressman Yeah. And I was gearing up to run for governor. And if I made a political vote in a tough Democratic primary, I just simply voted like every other Democrat, not every but like Bernie Sanders and others, I'd have voted no on our rack. Yeah. Because that hurt me with liberal voters in Illinois. Yeah. But they will tell us they had them. And I felt like I've got to suck it up and make the hard vote. Yeah, but I wasn't gonna completely trust them. So I said to myself, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to watch what Hillary Clinton does. The junior senator from New York, yeah, because she would know, having been in the White House, Bill Clinton's wife, where these people lie or not about something like this. And then when she voted for it, I felt like she would know they must be telling the truth. She was so I voted for it. It was a very bad vote that she made and a very bad vote that I made. I can only say my defense in mitigation. I believed them. And they were lying. And I've learned a lot of hard lessons about how the federal government in people in high places we have great trust in the military leaders, federal prosecutors, law enforcement, the public still trusts them mostly. Right? Well, you can't believe them all the time. They lie and they lied to us then and that's why I did that vote. And I I'm sorry about that. Because it was wrong. It was the wrong vote and I was wrong more. Very bad.
Do you think we should have stayed out of Afghanistan.
Okay, in a B, I would say, go in quickly do what you got to do after 911. And then get out. I would still say that was get in and get out fast. You needed an exit strategy, and they should have been out of there in a year or two. I mean, but I could be wrong about that to go ahead.
You know, we did a deep dive in Afghanistan and the Taliban was ready to give been a lot enough. We just seems as though we want to invade a place but could be. I do have to say my dad was the only adult that I knew personally, you know, as a as a little kid. He was the only adult I heard who is against invading Afghanistan. That was the only guy I mean, everyone was.
How about your dad?
He will Yeah, no, yeah. Well, he voted for Angela Davis. At one point. My dad was very he did, huh, yeah. Chicago seven. Yeah, he he was very right about some things. He had some crazy ideas in some other places. He had this one idea I always thought was like, fascinating. His idea was the way that you fix, you know, we're talking about get money out of politics, his idea for the presidency. This is the only person I've ever heard who had this idea. And at the time, I thought you're This is the dumbest idea I've ever heard in my life. He said, the president the presidency, it should be one six year term. Like in France, they have a six year term. And then you're executed at the end. Which is, you know, when I heard it was like, 12, I was like, What? That would never like, they would never do that. And yeah, they wouldn't. Now I hear it. And it's like, that's kind of a genius idea. I mean, it would it would it would keep some people would never become president. Right. I think Biden still would have done it. Because I mean, with Biden, it's like, he's already like, 80. I think he's always wanted to do Yeah, exactly. Like, I don't know, Obama probably wouldn't have done it. He wouldn't have done it. Now. He's not taking that
pill. Right. interesting idea yet, man, your dad, he could have been right on Afghanistan, I could be looking at history tells us don't go in there. You just couldn't do it. Right. We couldn't do it. That was in the wake of 911. And yeah, under the pretense of chasing terrorists. I believe that too. Maybe that wasn't right. I'll say something else. How does the cheney get away? With Halliburton? Yeah. And they go to war in Iraq and destroy that country. And he's the vice president with probably, frankly, more of a, you know, gravitas in terms of making that decision that bush did. Okay. And then they Halliburton goes in and gets all those billion dollar contracts to rebuild that country. And Chinese part of that. It's unbelievable.
Yeah. I'll never even be interviewed by the FBI about it. No one will ever write his daughter will be in Congress forever. We're the worst part is these people do these things? Yeah, we're stuck with them forever. Yes. We're not even free of them. john mccain's daughter is going to be in media for the rest of my life.
You're not a fan of john mccain house. It's awful. all fake. You're right. He's a fake. Yeah, he put his name on. I'll give you a story. Prescription drugs reimport reimportation. on prescription drugs. He was a huge part of your platform. Yeah, I was the first government American in America in 2005. to defy the FDA and go to Canada and go get the same medicines, maybe the same companies only bailed, bring them back in, and then provide them to our seniors and people who are living on fixed incomes, poor people, get them for half the price. And frankly, anybody else, right? Yes. And then three of the governors followed me that was it. I couldn't get anybody else. So I was the only governor with three others after I did it. And I remember saying this to the press, will you define the FDA? What would you say to them? I say they don't like to come and arrest me. Well, three years later, they came and got me not the FDA, FDA, but right. Yeah, well, anyway, he was. And rahm emanuel came to me with this. He was the Congressman, there might be succeeded me. And yeah, he came to me with this idea. And I thought it was a great idea. And because it's better than just being a lawmaker where you put your name on bills, but nothing happens. Yeah. And we're actually doing something right. Well, McCain and Ted Kennedy, were the co sponsors of that reimportation of prescription drug bill. And I had a chance to go visit Senator Kennedy who I really liked, that actually choked up in his office when I met with him because I'd look around his room and his senate office, and he had this, these little trinkets. You know, they call that the BRIC a BRAC or something. I think they call it right. Like Pt 1090. Yeah, yeah. He had he had these little things around the office about his brothers, you know, so historic figures. He seemed very genuine about trying to get something done on that. And then I went saw McCain, he was the CO sponsor, no friendly enough. But there was no follow through. Yeah, typical. Congressman, senator who put their names on things Dick Durbin is one of these. Yeah, that guy boy, triple D duplicitous dig Durbin, they put their names on all kinds of stuff with no intention of trying to pass anything. Just they can go to different constituency groups and say, I'm trying to get this done. It's a it's fake. And it's, it's discouraging, and McCain seemed to be like, the best of all the people all of them doing that he had this patina of being independent, and somewhat of a reformer, and a maverick. Right, it was I think it was all phony. Absolutely. Yeah,
absolutely. I mean, he voted with it for all the maverick plovers that he he voted with that party, almost entirely like, Oh, he's so big he, him and Trump don't get along. He's such a better guy than Trump. He votes for Trump's the tax cut, like he happily votes for that. He goes against him a few times, but votes for all the judges, because he's a member of that party. Yeah, he's part of that system. Yeah, and is one of the swamp creatures, anyone else. He
just said it. And it's the swamp creature stuff. And they're their ideas. And our ideology is shaped by all those people in that swamp in Washington outside the Beltway. And, you know, he probably never even thought about that issue till someone came up to him and said, this will look good, like taking on the pharmaceutical industry, but don't pass it. You know, I mean, that's what they do. They get on the bills, but they don't pass. Absolutely. Right. And they go back and say, I've taken on this pharmaceutical industry, it's so fucking fake.
There's a medic? No, no problem. There's a fucking Medicare for all bill that they're probably going to do every three years. There you go. My wife that will never know. Yeah, just so yeah. Right. When they when they think they're gonna face a tough primary. Look, I voted for it. Right? Like I was on the amendment, the thing that I knew would never pass.
You know, if they played the rest of the FBI tapes, which they won't do, because the truth is on those FBI tapes with me on there, they only play 2%. They took the, you know, the ugliest conversations out of context, even by themselves. Those aren't, those aren't crimes. This is fucking gold, and I'm not giving it up for nothing. How's that a crime unless you got something afterwards, as me say it, right? Anyway, if you heard the whole thing you'd hear me on the verge of making Lisa Madigan the senator who I don't like fake really don't like her father, we're fighting all the time. But if he's willing to give me a expansion of health care, cover everybody we didn't quite get because in Illinois, we gave more health care to more people than any state in America. Every child got access to affordable health care. I got a whole bunch of their parents up to like 600 1000 of their parents on the rolls.
You checked yet you made the eligibility. You took it from something like the the threshold was like $17,000 a year for a family to get on that to 83,000. Right. You got hundreds of 1000s right on it. There were
still like a million left that didn't have it. And the glass deal was I'll make your daughter the senator, give me that. Okay. Yeah, because the Senate was gonna do it. The mill Jones the democrats were there we had democrats controlled everything. We get a got everything done. But Madigan was blocking it working with the Republicans. Yeah. So I'll make your daughter Senator, I want that every buddy, then. A big public works infrastructure bill with like $1.5 billion of economic investment for the low income communities, which is largely black neighborhoods. Yeah. Okay. South and West Side, Southwest suburbs, places like Englewood, Englewood, East St. Louis. Okay. Some of the new areas in Decatur and Springfield, but largely south and west sides of the city, Chicago, East St. Louis, and some of the suburban areas now that are poor. Okay, I want that. And then I want a written memorandum of understanding. We're going to do it without raising taxes on people because I had a bunch of ways to do it, including tax in the casinos. And but yeah, other stuff, right? taking advice and turning it into a virtue, right? I know. And rahm emanuel is going to be the go between to make the deal because I couldn't trust Madigan. And he said he would ask Obama for permission. And then if he did that I was going to make that happen. And that was the day before I got arrested. And they heard all of that stuff, and arrested me the very next day to keep it from happening. Because I was going to do that and would and would have been able to have be the only state in America where everybody had access to affordable health care, private insurance, through the public option as well would have would have been a public option. That's how we were doing it was both and it's just one of those. Anyway, I bring that up just because you said Medicare for All. They don't want it. You know what, that's the other thing. And the pet Quinn was one of these guys. Yeah. So all for all of those things, but never wanted to pass any of them. You know why? Because then you don't have the issue anymore. Right? So they just and they'd rather blame it on somebody else rather than actually solve the problem. And that's what most politicians do. Not all of them, but most of them. And it's very discouraging, and disillusioning
every democrat. I see Ron a federal cycle every time. I see the same shit every time. Tom, we're all about we're all about increasing access to affordable health care, we're going to we're going to bring premiums back down, because they're already higher than they were when Obamacare when ACA was passing the law. That was nothing more than a giveaway to insurance companies.
No question. Yeah, Obama did it. He did. Frankly, he with that talent that he had. And he could have passed some he could have got
60 votes. Yeah, so sick of the bullshit about that. Oh, he didn't have a magic one. He had the greatest supermajority. I've seen a democrat have in my lifetime. They couldn't get they couldn't even get the public option.
I know it's sickening. I didn't want it but you have to know obama like I do. I'm not surprised by it. Yeah, but his moment was right there in that honeymoon period. When it My world is crashing down when they arrest me. And Bernie Madoff Remember that? Of course Bernie Madoff and I are the two biggest assholes in the world. That's how we were portrayed. Okay, he's a fucking heck a lot worse than me. No one got her mind. Okay. But as that's happening, Obama is a demigod, first black president with all that talent that he has. Okay. He's got a democrat house and a democrat Senate, didn't he? Yeah, yeah. He had 60 votes. Yes. Senate. Yes. And he had that honeymoon. Yeah, Trump never got he had
like, it was close to 80% approval rating, probably something we'll never see ever
and the bully pulpit and his skill to talk. Yeah, how does he not get it done? You know, why didn't really doesn't care that much.
He didn't want it the actly no one wanted a manual didn't want to a manual was so quick to cut off the public option.
You know why insurance companies? Yeah, yeah. campaign counter.
That's, I mean, yeah, that's floating his lifestyle. Absolutely.
Yeah. Oh, it's really just it's very disheartening.
But that is, you know, when I said you were ahead of your time, what you did with children's health care? That was, I mean, you did that and what that was 2005. Yeah. So yeah,
I had to make a deal on that, you know, I got that. I had to make a deal with Madigan and evil Jones. So you Madigan's democratic
speaker and Jones is one of the few people who is like, kind of always on your side, he was
great, a good person, old school Chicago machine guy, you know, Southside black and common sense and a good person. But they were both concerned. And I get this because here's the deal. We you know, we lament because there's so many missed opportunities. Obama with all that skill, just tinkered at the edges, didn't want to invest political capital to get things done to help real people. I mean, Chicago and the Southside of Chicago, where he comes from is supposed community activist. As President, he could have done so much for the inner cities with the ability that he has, and the democrats in control if they really wanted to. Yeah, see, I suspect they don't really want to they don't want to lose the issue. Yeah, like to keep that division, you know, but we were talking about Obama,
the deal that you made to get children's health care to get so yeah,
every child was October 2005. We can get all kids. And I'll start with all kids, and I'm gonna go and try to get their parents afterwards, which we started we did we doing? Yeah. And I want you know, the democrats are gonna be hard pressed to vote against that if you get a vote. But yeah, Madigan more so than evil Jones, by himself has the power to simply not call a bill. And that's how we kill stuff by himself. Yeah. And so the two of them hadn't seen me at the governor's mansion. It was blood by Madigan. And it was all legit and it because partly that's the point I wanted to make politics and government, Mayor Daley's father used to say it. The first mayor, dealing good politics is good government, good governance, good politics. Politics is the means to govern. You got to make deals and compromise, you got to understand the other person what they want to do. If you're if your convictions are deep enough, and you're willing to fight and invest a little bit more, even some of yourself into it, including your approval ratings. I take great pride in the fact that my approval ratings were never that high, because I put in political capital into stuff. If you're willing to do that, you can still move the ball forward 75% of the way instead of 100% of the way, and that's 75% better than you otherwise get right. Yeah, you're helping a lot of people. Well, they came to me because their members were hearing from their constituents in the downstate areas that the doctors were saying that if they don't pass caps on medical malpractice damages, the doctors are going to leave Illinois, they're going to move to Missouri or Kentucky or Indiana, okay. And little old ladies will go into these state reps and state senators offices and saying, My doctor because the doctors were organized and they were going directly to the patients, they were going right to their elected officials. You need to we're going to we're going to vote for your opponent. And the majorities of the democrats held at that time. were based upon democrats winning seats downstate. Yeah, okay. And we had to hold those or else we're gonna lose at least one majority the senate impossible even the house. Madigan is always worried about that. And so they wanted to stick it to the trial lawyers who had given all of us Democrats, a lot of money, Madigan millions of dollars over the years, he was their guy to protect the trial lawyers and the medical malpractice caps from going into effect. Okay, Madigan's politics shifted when I became the governor trollers contributed something like a million million and a half dollars to my campaign. And so, they didn't need Madigan as much as they had me. As far as they were concerned. Equal John's less so but their members were coming to them saying we got to stick it to the we got to sell out the lawyers basically. And be with the doctors on this. This the crass political way of explaining it right? Because otherwise these people are gonna vote us out of office. And they were so concerned that Madigan Jones sought and said that we could lose our majorities. So they came to me and basically said, if you don't join us, because we're going to stick it to the lawyers pass caps on damages in spite of all the money they've given them in our campaigns. But if you vetoed this, you're screwing us. And these people, we're gonna lose our seats. Yeah, no majorities. So you got to make a deal with this right now, will you sign this into law, which means you got to stick it to those trial lawyers who gave you over a million dollars in campaign contributions. Right? If you want your all kids bill, yeah, that was basically what the deal was, right? I mean, not you know how much time I spent to figure that one out. But I was prepared to make that deal. Like three seconds, right? the morality of it was so clear to me, sorry, Trial Lawyers, you're gonna get fucked here. Because we can do something great for all these kids, right? You can go see a doctor and be healthy and grow up and live good lives. It was a no brainer. And do I? Am I blaming the two of them for making that deal with me? Because it was kind of a cynical political move. No, they were smart politically, and it was the right thing to do, because they had to protect the majorities. So those are the kinds of things you have to balance when you're in a position of leadership. And needless to say, those lawyers were very angry and disappointed, at Madigan and me, Leslie Jones, because they were less helpful to Jones. But they were really they felt betrayed by the two of us. And I tried to explain to them it was a choice between I was I didn't choose this one, they came to me. And I gotta tell you, kids health care. Overwhelmingly Trump's your issue. Yeah, it's easy to make that decision and screw those guys.
I will say, though, that like medical malpractice thing, I mean, I imagine I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert on what what the economics of like being a family doctor downstate are, but generally, you know, this is we've seen a lot in red states, places that have a strong republican state legislator, lay chair. We've seen it like in Texas, they passed a crazy tort reform bill in the nine days. And with Republicans. It was the reasoning was, oh, why are healthcare costs so high? Oh, it's because of it's because of medical class action. And like, I think there are far more pitiable people in America than, you know, class action trial lawyers, for sure. I also think it is a way that people can get some form of redress normal people can get some form of redress against doctors. That said, I mean, like, I always found that, like, you know, with you, you felt like you had to do what you have to do you know, if this was the way to pass it. Absolutely. Yeah, I get you. But can I
find that real quick? Yeah. Because what you're saying is absolutely right. The Trial Lawyers are on the right side of that issue. I burn firmly. The idea that you put a cap on a medical now a mistake a doctor makes that causes great harm to a patient. Oftentimes, children. Yeah. And all that family can get is $250,000. For a lifetime, a lifetime, right? is very wrong. Yeah. So their cause I think was very just incorrect. And I was always for it. And happy lead for it. Very natural. But see, this is what happens with governing. You see? Yeah, you, Clint used to say that she can let the perfect be the enemy of the good, right? Do I just say no. And don't do that for all those kids. That was the choice You
see, right? So to you it's like this thing that you're not you're right, you're not against medical class? No, but at the same time, you're like, well, it's that or enrolling all kids.
Well, that's it. So you win the big war to get the all the kids world and you get health care for all the kids then in 2005, will live to fight another day with the trial lawyer. I mean, it's not like that's dead forever. Can you come back and revisit that issue?
and the like, I mean, it's like most things with health care in America, the trial lawyer even just having Trial Lawyers with uncapped with uncapped court winnings, it's not even really a good solution. I mean, you know, I'm one Okay, say that it's all tort reform is declared unconstitutional. You can do this everywhere. You can even do this in Texas. That's, I mean, that's good for families, where a doctor fucks up where, you know, whatever, it's not really, for most people, it's not it's not going to really bring their costs down. I don't think it's necessarily going to immediately make doctors better it's not going to bring our infant mortality rate down, which is pitiful pitiful, like just awful for a country as rich as All right, but, uh, you know, where I'm at with most of this with health care, and I'm interested in what you think, you know, I've seen these things, the rate of health care administrators, hospital administrators, people who work in billing, people whose, you know, you don't want to be unfair to people, but I'm sorry, that is an extortion job. They have grown at 20 times the rate that the amount of care workers we have doctors, nurses, physician's assistants, the people we have a shortage of. I think at this point like Medicare for all isn't really quite good enough. I think we would need something like the NHS I think we would need to nationalize the entire thing. I think if you want it Like, you know, cosmetic procedures that could be private, of course, but I think our hospital and care systems, they've lost the right to be operated for profit or even operated by a non state institution.
You know that I hear what you're saying. And I, I've been gone for so long that I haven't been able to keep up on some of the new developments, like what you're talking about, about this sort of bureaucracy that exists now in the administration of health care and the delivery system. I can tell you what I believe I believe, first of all, that health care is a fundamental human right. And a lot of Republicans don't believe that. Madigan didn't believe that when I was pressing on, he never did. And a lot of people who are well intentioned too, honestly, are thoughtful, people don't think that. I believe it's, it is for many reasons, I believe it's rooted in, frankly, in the Scripture, yeah. Pictures, the golden rule, do unto others, as you would have others do unto you not to mention a whole bunch of other places, you can find the need to look after your neighbor and make sure your neighbor can have a chance to be healthy. Right. I think it's a Declaration of Independence, the pursuit of happiness. Yeah, right. I don't inalienable right of all of us to pursue happiness. You can't be happy if you're not well. And so I interpret that to mean, everybody should get health care. I believe, also, that we know that if the government doesn't get involved, there gonna be a lot of people without it. Yeah. And it just the marketplace alone won't address that. Yeah. So I feel like there's a role for government to play in it. Abraham Lincoln said, the proper role of government is to do for a community of people to do for people what they can't do by themselves individually, you can't do so well, by themselves. Yeah, individually. And so that's, I think, an appropriate use of government that link you would agree with? Yeah, I think the disagreements are as to the not so much the ends, those of us who all believe that healthcare should be available to everybody. But the means how to get there. And I know from my own experience in prison, for example, that that example of government run health care is a very bad one. I saw guys die in prison, you just won't get into care that there was they should have gotten cancers that could have been stopped earlier. But you know, a year or two before, but they were just never getting the treatment they needed. And then there they are, shriveled up guys, who a year and a half ago, you were working out with them to Jim dying, I saw this. And I saw this sort of bureaucratic almost indifference to people, they were just kind of like numbers. So I'm not saying that the government by its, you know, is altogether wrong. Yeah. I just feel like there's I'm not sure what the coordinate, the answer was no than Illinois. We could do public option. By leaving private insurance insurance alone. I wasn't trying to completely change everything. I was just trying to fill gaps. Yeah. So but if I was ever to place the power, that'd be my big priority, actually, like it was when I was governor healthcare.
I mean, at the same time, though, people wither and die and are lost in bureaucracy when they're free, you know, in the private system. Yeah. Yes. Right. I mean, they were unfortunately, it's hard to see a path forward for it.
It's a hard, hard issue. Now. I think the I think most people would agree with us that everybody should have it. Yeah. And they they have a right to it. I think the hard part is to figure out exactly the right way to get there. Yeah. And I don't have the answers either. I can only tell you in Illinois, I didn't have to. I wasn't eliminating the existing system. I was working within the existing. Yeah. As I said, to pretty much get everybody who was caught in the gaps and try to get them something. And the public option was extremely helpful to us in achieving that.
Yeah. Well, I don't I mean, like a governor is sort of limited in what they can, like, a governor can't quite get rid of private insurance in their state. I would love it if they could, but like, you know, they can't but like, no state like California, because I know, you know, Illinois facing budget shortfall issues, like right, when you got in there, there was a budget deficit. And you actually, you know, I don't want to fully get into that. But like, states like California that could actually have even higher tax receipts than they do. Now. They could if they wanted to cover everyone. But you know, they won't. They'll never do that. But they can't, they cannot. I do not think there is a way for them to get rid of private insurance in the state.
I think that the powerful lobbyists in the influence of the insurance industry, is why Obama basically gave them what they want it. Yeah. I mean, basically, his health care program. I think the biggest winner was the insurance company.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. It's ironic,
you know, just final thing I want to talk to you about. Andy, we touched on a little bit you were talking about how you the final thing you're working on. He briefly touched on how you wanted a big infrastructure bill.
Yeah.
This was so while while you were away wall. Obama was in power, really. We saw communities like in the Southside of Chicago. He St. Louis that you mentioned. It's specific Illinois, but it's happened in a lot of places in America. The same thing happens. You see the same patterns A neighborhood or oftentimes, like a federal housing project or state housing project will be destroyed. The thinking is it will get rid of crime of obviously crime doesn't just disappear. low income people go to a different area, it's typically an area that was obliterated by deindustrialization. A place where, you know, families used to be able to have like, okay, paying middle class jobs, no longer can afford heights. Yeah, families have been destroyed. Then in the 90s. In the 2000s, you saw the leadership of gangs decapitated. And, you know, these gangs become leadership, leaderless. People are in a hopeless situation, some of these places they look, you know, people who don't follow this, they would not think it's America. And for all intents and purposes, they're not people, the kids growing up here, they're not living in the same reality that we're living in. It's, they are abandoned places. And we've seen them abandoned in red states, we see them abandoned in blue states, we see them in abandoned states that have democratic super majorities. And Englewood in particular, right? Very interesting to me, because it's it is an American Warzone. It is, what if you if you could do any like, if you're, you're begging there, you have the powers of Governor? Yeah. How, how would you even begin to fix that? How would you even begin to give people hope?
Right, that's great, which is a great question. So real quick, and I just want to say this on the record, so I get this out there. I think what America needs is more more than two parties. Yeah, I think that we can govern more effectively, we had several parties, not just three either. And I don't know how you change this. But if you do it with more than a logical model of what they have, and I don't know Great Britain or some other places, but where you can build governing Coalition's, because our politics is so divided, and it's so it's so divided. And our parties are so divided, in that the both sides of the political spectrum are so dominant Now, within each party, that there's you can't even think about compromising, because you will lose the support that you have, from your hardcore, left wing base or your hardcore, right wing base. And now one of the developments of Obama, which I thought was very helpful, but now I don't think was, but you just can't it creates another complication was one of the things Obama did when he ran in 2008. And before that, in 2007, was he attracted such a great following, especially in the black community, that he was getting all of these small dollar donations from everyday people? Were now putting skin in the game? Yeah. And that began this new process that you see now from Bernie Sanders that you know, what's your name? Alexandria, ocasio Cortez? Yeah. Right. They're able to raise a lot of money through small dollar donations. On the other side of the spectrum. That's what the republicans Trump was doing that. Yeah, he's right.
or smaller, small dollar donations in any democratic or republican presidential candidate before? Yeah.
So that's the populism of politics, which I think is great. On the other hand, it makes it harder to govern, because Congresswoman Cortez can't, is going to upset her fundraising base, if she makes a deal with Marjorie Taylor green as something where they can find common ground or know what they could find common. Maybe they can't Yeah, my point is, and maybe that's impossible, I think it probably is. And that's why having other parties in the mix, you don't left center, Left Party or center, right or whatever. And all in the mix where you're governing, maybe we'll get better results for people now to answer your question about what is really troubling to me. Yeah, I've had a chance as I've been home over the last six weeks, I've had a chance to get back in the black community, which has always been a community that I felt a real affinity for. And I've been able to go to black churches, and you know, give, speak briefly and just go to the service, even my family, my daughters and my wife, Patti, I went to river, Pastor Thursday's church, just a little bit south and Chatham of Englewood, the neighborhood you're talking about. And it's, I just want I go back, because I've felt a real sense of gratitude that even in the worst of times, see, they understand you can't always believe what the police say, right? And therefore the cops and the prosecutors and all the rest. And so that was the one place when they should hit the fan in my life. Well, you know, I wasn't a pariah, where you'd actually we actually felt some warmth and some love. And so finally, I get back after all those years, and, and I've been really grateful for the chance to go back and just express my gratitude. But when you take the drive from the north side, where I live to the south side, especially now with all the terrible violence that's going on, because those are gang wars, it's like you're leaving to it's a tale of two cities. It's two different places. And there's vibrancy and there's energy and there's people jogging on the streets, and businesses are open. And in spite of COVID things are doing pretty well. People are out and about and you crossed into the south side and it's dead. Right? Everybody's inside, partly because they're afraid, right? It's quiet. Not a lot of businesses. It's just a very different world. Right before I got arrested, we were talking about doing something to address this issue of food deserts. We're in the black communities, there's no fresh fruit, places where you can't buy produce and fresh fruit fruit. Yeah, why is that we tried to do some things along those lines. And I got taken out. But, and I, every time I'm there, and I come back from the south side to the north side, it's like you've left a place that's asleep to a place that's wide awake and vibrant. And it's not right, it's wrong. And so what's the answer? How do you address that? I mean, there's just a lot of stuff. There's a lot of things that I think need to be done to address the the issues of that kind of poverty and despair, hopelessness. And, you know, we talk about what the church means in the black community, it's a place where hope people go on Sundays to get hope they go on Wednesday nights to get hope, in a place that otherwise desolate and a feeling of no opportunity. I don't have all the answers, I feel like, you know, we have a public school education system that's a monopoly and is afraid of change and reform. I was very supportive of the teachers union when I was governor, and supportive of the education establishment, partly because that was my political alliance with Senator Jones, I would have liked to try to push them a little bit, put some ideas of, you know, school choice pilots, maybe vouchers or stuff like that to take a look at, but you couldn't do it. I feel like there needs to be, you know, reevaluation of how that how the education system works, there's no economic opportunity. There's a real sense that, you know, you can't make it in America, there's the prevalence of drugs, that's the one place where you can get ahead. And so the the social challenges there are very significant, and I don't have all, I don't have a lot of the answers, except it should become, maybe the number one priority of those in government is to try to rectify that, so that everybody can live in what Dr. King called the beloved community and opportunity to get ahead for everybody. I do believe in the American dream, I do believe in opportunity and getting ahead. I don't believe in socialism. I don't believe that. And I feel like that's a failure, steals freedom. But how do you bring to one part of our community, that feeling that you can make it in America, and your hard work will pay off? It doesn't exist there? And there's reasons, very good reasons why? Because it's been a community that's been historically screwed in the United States. And they know what they feel it. And they don't trust? I think, a lot of us, which was your sense,
I mean, I, it's, it would take a lot of work, because yeah, it's these specific areas, completely abandoned, bereft of any social services. But I, I mean, you were saying that they don't feel like there's a way to advance and they're right, there really is like, just across the board. There's very low social mobility in America compared to how it used to be but right bashley there, right, especially there. I think you would need to see some type of industry there. Maybe, yeah, you would, I think we would really need to rethink the way that we do policing a lot, completely revamp it. And I think I mean, I think we probably disagree on on charter schools. Yes, I think I mean, I really think the problem could kind of even goes beyond education. I think everyone obviously deserves a K through college education, if that's what they want. But I think, looking at these places, it goes beyond just solely what the schools are like. But I mean, unfortunately, this is another one of those problems that I think we look at it now. It is partly unintentional policy and partly a consequence of how we do things. You say intentional, tell
me what you mean.
I think that a lot of places the conscious thought with a lot of people is like, well, like fuck this place. This Let's all crime all, the vast majority of violent crime, fatal crime, the vast majority of murders are going to happen in this one part, right? The city, right, that no one ever thinks about. Right? It might as well be. I mean, I use the analogy to our foreign wars a lot, because we also don't like thinking about those either good analogies a place that's within our borders, right, that we also similarly Don't think about. And I think about the people that live there as though they're foreigner.
Right? Absolutely. Right. Would you just sent and there's a cynical element of it, and I hate to say it, look, the Country Club corporate Republican Party of Mitt Romney and McCain, and Bush and Cheney. They don't even pretend to care about the blood. community and within the plight, in the lack of opportunity and the despair that exists and the lack of energy in the in those economic energy. They don't pretend to care. And they almost end their politics will always rooted as sort of like an us versus them, you know, be afraid of them. Right. You know, it's real cynical. Today's Democratic Party, frankly, in the democrat party that I grew up in here in Chicago, real cynical politics, too. Yeah. Their feeling is, yeah, well, we'll do something for them. We'll give a lot of lip service, we'll talk about how unfair things are. And we'll have some black people in some high prominent places to look like we are doing things. But we're not going to get and we're going to do some stuff. I'm gonna provide some investments there to help people on a human, you know, human resource kind of way. All that they do. But they got to stay there. We don't want them coming into the white neighborhoods. And we'll write the white people have changed little chase them out. Yeah. So what you have with democratic administrators really interesting. The two dailies and I like Mayor Daley, the second one that I knew his father was like a, you know, like a legendary figure, you know, when I was growing up in Chicago, you know, he was like the king, you know? Yeah. I mean, you grew up in Chicago when I was growing up. And we know, I know the day Elvis data, August 16 1977. Mayor, JFK, November 22 1963, talks about Bobby Kennedy, and December 20 1976 76, when the first Mayor Daley died. But here's what they did with democratic presidents, both of them deal with the race issue and to maintain a city of segregation because
it is this is an incredibly sacred day, very much, maybe the most in America by
design. They could have addressed that and they didn't, and don't want to, because it's politically very hard. Yeah. So the first Mayor Daley gets federal dollars from the Democratic President Johnson. Yeah, to expand the Kennedy, the Dan Ryan Expressway, and he makes sure he gets it where he wants it. Because he doesn't have a natural barrier like the Mississippi River to keep the bus out of Bridgeport. Yeah. So they put the Dan Ryan expressway there.
My dad would point that out to me. He's right by it. Yeah.
And that was not by accident that was directed by Mayor Daley, the first with a democratic president, Lyndon Johnson, who did so much for civil rights in terms of the bill, civil rights law, right. But this kind of stuff was all goes on in democratic politics. So they do some and enough to say they've done something but not what they could do. So they divided now dailies and then they bring up public housing during that period. Okay, in the 60s, right? Put poor people up high, which turned out to be a terrible experiment, a very bad thing. bad quality of life for poor black people. Cabrini green, Robert Taylor homes. I used to work over there. Robert Taylor homes when I was a young prosecutor. Yeah. 50% Wentworth, so I know that right. So what do you do with that? they tear that down under the booklet administration, and the second Mayor Daley, and he's working with Clinton, and making sure that that comes down in other places, too, but in Chicago, and the policies are such that those black families that have been dispossessed, those poor families, don't stay in the city, but they moved to the south suburbs of the West towns, right. They go to Markham, and they go to Ford heights. And, you know, that whole South Suburban area, right, yes. No longer Daly's political challenge. It becomes the suburban issue. And Daly City becomes more gentrified? Yep. ified. You white? Right?
Yeah. No, the the CBO a becomes like the economic center of the city. It become we become like the financial hub of the Midwest. And it's talked about as the great success story of the rust belt. The things that happened to other places. We talked about it like we skirted it. Well, everyone didn't skirt, it didn't benefit everybody.
Right? I like your idea of putting industry there. I like your idea, you know, instead of shipping jobs over to China and Mexico, why not? Do some sort of smart tax policy, encourage businesses? Like the Finkle steel company where my father used to? Yeah, they're now on the south side. They're now just south of Englewood. Yeah, they're in the area where the old us steel plant used to be. And they're actually looking to hire black people to finkles steel company, more of that. And that would be helpful
if there were union jobs and yeah, no, and everything great and small, like things like basic things, as you mentioned, that we don't even think about, like we do not even think about, like access to produce, right? things that just don't have it. Basically, that Yeah, make it seem like they're, I mean, they're not like people if you live, you know, in Englewood, or you live in any way East St. Louis. Yeah, you wouldn't feel like you're living in the same place as any anyone else. You're not it's not the same place, not the
same place. And you know, your point you said about how well it's like a foreign country, and we don't really, we kind of know it's over there, but it's not we don't see that. That is absolutely right. And that too creates, I think a lack of sympathy for the challenge to try to do something as a larger community help. Also for a lot of misunderstandings, and then it becomes ripe for you know, the different people like to use the race card for political reasons on both sides. Okay. And I think there are a lot of democrats like to use that all the time. They like to keep that situation. Mayor Washington, the first black Mayor called a plantation politics. I believe that very much exists today still, with Democrats in big cities and practically in Washington, and then you call the other side racists. And black people will accept that and believe that because you're getting screwed so bad. They, it's real to them. And there is an element of it being real. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But I do believe there's a lot more well meaning people that would like to try to be helpful if they honestly knew what the problems were. And it wasn't invisible to them. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's what's invisible. They don't know what they don't see it. And part of the challenge is, how do you how do you educate broader public to some of these problems? And then how do you articulate the need that, you know, the black national anthem is lift every voice, right? But if you lift up, everybody, you're raising up, if you lift up people who are in poverty, if you lift them up, it lifts all of us up in some way or another. But frankly, from a business point of view, you've got more consumers, right? Well, yeah,
that was the JFK thing. rising tide lifts all boats. Right, democratic Keynesianism, which, you know, they trot out sometimes when they really need it, right. But I have noticed something you've you've harken back to a lot in our conversation is the idea of division. And I feel like in some ways, like, you know, maybe at any, any time in history, you can pick people up reliving that, and they'll say the same thing. We've never been more divided. And I think, you know, we did. I think there probably have been times we have won the Civil War. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I mean, just generally, like politics are very polarized. Yes. And they're there. I just basic things like I will admit, when the vaccine rolled out, I thought, of course, you're always going to get people who just are never gonna do not want to get it or hesitant of it will not trust it. I mean, they're always gonna be anti vaxxers. I did not expect it to be as many people as it was, I stupidly thought because Trump made such a big deal about them developing it under his administration, because he got it, that it would be more people would be like, yeah, okay, let's, we want to get out of this, like, so many people have died. Let's get it. And that, unfortunately, has not really happened. for a lot of reasons. It's not just people who are categorically against vaccines, but, uh, how would we begin to fix that? In your, from someone who just like you've, you've come at this from all angles, you've lived an incredible life, like, what do you think you've, you've engaged with pretty much every type of person in America? How would you make it better?
I talked with presidents that I live with the murderers. Yeah, right. Not a lot of people can say that. Right? Yeah. Well, it's trust. People don't trust government, the media, social media, institutions in the United States. Increasingly, I think more and more people are distrustful of the criminal justice system, which I think is a good thing. Yeah. And I think there's reasons why they don't trust a lot of these big institutions, because they're not because they have failed us because they have been dishonest, and haven't been caretakers of the truth. Like they should be. Yeah. It's all about immediate expediency all about winning now. And whatever it takes to win rather than, you know, some things are just so sacred, that we don't go there and like the cheapening of the impeachment process, you know, and maybe your listeners won't appreciate what I'm about to say about Trump. And I feel like that was cheapened against him. I've been impeached and removed or disqualified. I believe that was wrong.
Most of my listeners, like don't like, I don't think they really give a shit too much about like, they weren't like frothing for Trump to be impeached. I think they thought it was funny. Yeah, like, kind of like I didn't really like
and it wasn't going to happen because the republicans were staying with them. So maybe it wasn't such an immediate they were never gonna convey. Yeah, well, the republicans started this because they did this the clinton You see, yeah, this is what these politicians and political parties do when you start going down a slippery slope and one thing leads to another and it becomes payback, payback. Now, suddenly, you got the situation where nothing is sacred anymore. So the things that we used to be always considered fundamental constitutional rights, like free speech. Yeah, not censorship, like privacy, not surveillance, these things are being eroded in the United States. And people are seeing it and they don't trust it. So I think it really comes down to trust. And I think, you know, when you're when a leader asks people during a pandemic, to make sacrifices, yeah. Okay. Because they have to because, like, I look at Pritzker, I see what, how he's handled things in Illinois, and I asked myself, because I had the job. How would I have had this if this happened? What under my watch? Yeah, almost everything he's done. I think I probably would have done the same thing. The shutdowns and things like that. The masks on vaccinated I believe people should get vaccinated. But I do understand why they don't trust what they're being told. Yeah. And I and I, it goes down I think to this, you know, it's been a long litany of fakeness and dishonesty to the public. And it is shocking that so many people feel like they're being lied to by the government and something is fundamental is vaccinations. It wasn't like that. in the, in the 70s. Or I should say, the 1950s when, you know, everybody was required to get
you're right. And polio shots. What is it that I have on it? That's a polio thing that
like so I'm not quite sure. Right. I think or no, that's TB. That's me. Yeah.
Okay. So, like, in 1956, the government, unlisted, Elvis, do a public relations, public service, and now it's getting vaccinated. Yeah. Okay. Because there was some hesitancy, but nowhere near what it is today, because they trusted we trusted things more back then. We don't know. And we're right now, too. So I know what you mean, it's really frustrating. I think that pandemic could have been far less deadly. And maybe over sooner. Yeah, if people would have been more trustworthy. But here again, you get these leaders who ask for sacrifice, but they don't share in the sacrifice. They tell us in as leaders that you should do a certain thing, but they don't do it themselves. Right. And that's a big mistake. You know, when that Governor California goes out to that French restaurants a small thing, and it's on its own, but in a position like that, in a worldwide pandemic like that, you've got to be mindful of those things. Yeah, the optics of that, and how that's going to be twisted by your political opponents, and used to undermine public confidence and trust. So that in New York with some of the stuff that was happening with Cuomo, and I'm stealing all of that, and I think that causes more problems at harm. And I think that's part of why these anti vaxxers and these these anti mass people are so are so distrustful.
Yeah. I think with some people, like no matter who told them, it would be like, you know what, with last year, no, I don't want to fucking stay home. No, I'm gonna fly home and see people during Thanksgiving, no, I'm not going to wear the mask on a fucking plane. Now, or, like now, like, no, you're telling me to get the vaccine on there. Some people are just going to be like, it's like they have oppositional defiance disorder, you're always gonna get people like, right, you should always account for people like that. But I think for like, broadly for, because so many people haven't gotten it, I think that it's a mistake that people make just broadly referring to anti vaxxers as if, like, they all think it's fake. I mean, I don't know, like, we for better or for worse, we did make Fauci sort of the face of like, what we wanted the response to be, like, people on the liberal side felt that. I mean, this sounds kind of ridiculous to say, but I think it was a mistake to like, make doctors the face of it. Because I bet Look, I bet doctors like, yeah, if you polled people, I bet they pull like decent. But they pull. Okay, I bet people are generally favorable, then I never think polls tell the whole story, right? people's mental association of a doctor. How most younger, most Americans under like 40 don't have a primary care physician, a family doctor, they see. Like, even once a year, they don't even if they do have a family doctor, they never see them. When you say doctor, to most people, when you show them a doctor, what they think of is the guy they see every three or four years, who like tells them that they're fat. Like he does, like, okay, we'll do like you're fucked up for this reason, because you didn't see me the year before. And oh, also, that's like $700 or so the guy you go, you go under? Oh, yeah, now you owe $75,000. Oh, your wife gave birth to 9890 100 $200,000, depending on where you do it. And I don't think that that's not necessarily doctors fault. But I don't think people have like, the strongest mental association with them where they see them and they go, Oh, I have to like, I need to listen to that guy. It's not like how we used to view family doctors. And it's not just that. It's I think we also there is an erosion of trust in pharmaceutical companies and public officials, as he said, but I mean, I just I do not know how to undo it. How do you put the toothpaste back in the tube? Maybe you don't? That's the really unfortunate thing.
You know, that's a great question. So, like I said, in prison, you can catch up on your reading, and I read a lot of history books. And I feel like now I get I have a longer view on things than I did before. Yeah. So that, you know, in I look at it more, not so much as what's gonna happen tomorrow or the next year. But, you know, maybe approaching one generation to the next I see things more generationally. Yeah, your generation, for example, and my daughter's generations because my one The Millennium and the other was a Gen Z. Yeah. So and then I look at history and how things unfold. I feel like and I hope that this doesn't happen where it's cataclysmic, but I feel like history tells us for this to get corrected, what you're saying it's going to require some sort of cataclysmic situation. Yeah, where the slates almost clean, and then we start over. And I'm not advocating anything like that, nor am I advocating revolutionary like that. One of the good thing, great things about how imperfect things have been over the last several generations is imperfect as it's been. It hasn't been nearly as bad as it was, let's say, my mother's generation, they were fighting the Second World War, right? Yeah. We've had knock on wood, relative world peace. With the aftermath of the Second World War, that first world war led to the second world war because they didn't have it. Right. Yeah. In 1919. At the peace treaties, meetings in Paris, the Treaty of Versailles, yeah, they fucked it up. Yes, it was a draconian punitive piece on Germany, one
of the worst decisions
led to led to Hitler Yeah, okay. wouldn't have been have they done it the right way, had he not punished Germany the way they did? Anyway, they learned our lessons FDR, his dream of a and Wilson's dream of a league nation. I know the conservative Republicans don't like the United Nations, Say what you will about the imperfections of it. But that has to have something to do with the fact that we've avoided a third world war, we went through the Cold War, we've got through all of that, and we came on the better on the better side of the Cold War, knock on wood, we been able to avoid those big cataclysmic things, let's hope we don't have any like that. Maybe this is what it is, this pandemic that we've gone through,
I was, you know, in some, in some ways, like in early March, when none of us really knew what it was. I mean, God, when people were fucking people were wiping down their groceries with Clorox, because we didn't know like, it wasn't really surfaces. I remember I did that once. And then I was like, You know what, I'm never doing this again, like, if, like, if the difference between life and death is like, wiping, like, I have to take, like, a box of seltzers. And like, wipe Clorox on it all fucking die. I don't ever want to do that again. But like, think I was right. That's like, you really don't have to do that. But back then, I remember I was like, I was doing a show. It was a printer show was something that was live. But I was saying that, like, you know, silver lining, he tried to look for the silver lining. I hope that there is some sense in this country that like everyone, across every every type of demographic barrier feels like we are in it together in something. And I think for some people, they have felt that button, again, like this is like with everything else, you would have to redo the last 40 years to make it so that everyone felt that. Yeah. And we've I feel like we've been on this path where everything is consumer choice. And that's, you know, you've you, as an individual, sort of give up a lot of your, your idea of yourself as a political entity, or even a member of a community or you. You Yeah, your media consumption habits, or your just actual medical consumption habits determine what type of person you are. And you have very low trust in any institution. And you know, even even people who followed all the rules, you know, I followed every rule, as you know, this time, like I wear a mask, when I go on a plane ride, I think if you're gonna have mass, that's probably the best place to mandate to plant disease tube, but like, right, you know, even then there's a very low degree of trust. And unfortunately, this is not I don't really think it, it just as far as Americans, it really made anyone feel closer together in any way.
Right? Well, you know, I want to be careful what I'm about to say, cuz I don't want to give the wrong impression. And I don't want to offend anybody. But I feel like I can just tell you from my own experience, and the journey I've been on, and I, one of the disappointments I have since coming home, is I was really hopeful that when I returned home, I'd be able to, like, help direct my young daughters to get a better and my wife to to get a better sense of faith. Yeah, God, yeah, that I have that I've been blessed to have because I believe I'm blessed this way very lucky. It gave me everything I needed. And even now, it's all good. But some of you have to work out like anything else. But I'm really afraid to get too involved in in the religious discussion just because people understandably, they don't trust someone talking like that. Largely because it's their platitudes. They sound like it's a good thing to do with political capital by saying it and the other part of it is recolored. The bigger part of it is too many people who say that claim that they don't live there folks. Another example of trust right now what they say they are in prison there was a name for guys like that they call them jailhouse Jesus's right? Yeah, they were there, you know, big Christianity on their sleeves, and yet, they're stealing all the time you see it all right? They're not living by the golden rule or even the 10 commandments, right? Yeah, it's awfully hard to even trust our religious institutions and men and women who are in the spiritual world. But I would say that I do believe that those lessons those great moral lessons that you can get from scriptures from the Old Testament, the New Testament, I'm sure the Quran I don't know the Quran, but in other religious texts, those moral lessons, those values that are always right, I believe they come from God, the other people might differ, but a re awakening of some of that, however you want to call it by not necessarily putting in at any particular religion. But some of those good decent values, you know, like the golden rule Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. If more and more people put more of an emphasis on this sort of thing, and I think leaders can help by being leading by example and trying to be the best they can living that way. We're never going to make it perfect. That's a given. Yeah, this is a fallen world and filled with imperfection. I believe there's a heaven hopefully, I'm right and we'll have to wait for that but we can make it better and I don't know you just got to, I guess pick your places that these are really broad, difficult questions. But I do think that so much would get better in America today at every level of our society. If people were more honest with each other Yeah, and the irony is here you got a convicted felon like me saying that you know what I'm saying and yet I truly believe it. And you know, I haven't lied to you at all about my circumstances I truly believe that I followed every single law that I was supposed to follow and broke none but I do believe that it's the breakdown of trust and the concentration of power without the necessary checks and balances those are the biggest challenges that we face as Americans and I think it's a challenge on a global level yeah even in issues like the Middle East the differences that there are there a lot of it has to do with what you can trust somebody whether you know these rails can live in peace with the Palestinians and vice versa than that and I don't know how you legislate that I don't think you can I think you have to just just has to happen organically and leaders have to lead by example.
Well I mean, it been amazing going to where can people find you we can we can put everything in the description of this episode.
I just got on Twitter by the way I know Yeah, we just started it Yeah, so all new to me. But because there's some like Twitter's with my name on it that's not me.
Oh, yeah. No, I saw that I followed a few of that like when you got out I was like looking for you. Oh, is that right? Yeah, I was looking for you and I got duped one or two times Oh, no caving like leading up to today. I was like, holy shit I hope I didn't get fooled by someone over showed in rent a fucking studio and I was like, I'm getting fooled by someone. Oh, no kid, did you call me I was like, Oh, thank God because in the back of my mind, I was like I had I 90% believe do is you? Yeah, when we were damning? Because I was like that sounds like him. But you know you you have to have some like allowance for people talking with you interest in some way. You know? Yeah. I wouldn't be that mad at it. Because it's like, that happens.
That's life. Goes to trust again doesn't? Yeah,
I did dress it with you. More trusted with you than not. Yeah.
Well, it was a real pleasure meeting you and graduations on the things that you do and the work that you do and your podcast.
Thank you. Thank you so much for your time and I'm I'm really glad you're out and that you're telling this story.