[COLD OPEN] It's fascinating because I'm fully Chinese, for my kids to be half is such a cool in-between. You've got a foot in both worlds, you're taking the best of everything. I envy them in a lot of ways. I kind of wish I had that experience growing up.
Oh man. I mean, I'm envious of you and your family, that your family actually spoke to you in Cantonese, I'm like, Mom, why?
[MUSIC, INTRO] This is The Book of Life, a show about Jewish kidlit, mostly. I'm Heidi Rabinowitz. Happy New Year! Rosh Hashanah, which begins this year on September 15, 2023, is celebrated by Jewish folks each fall. The Lunar New Year, which will be celebrated next February 10, 2024, is celebrated by Asian folks each spring. In the picture book Two New Years, Richard Ho explains and Lynn Scurfield beautifully illustrates the parallels between these two celebrations. The book is about a Chinese Jewish family and is a wonderful example of the increasingly diverse Jewish representation being published today. I'm sure you'll enjoy my conversation with Richard and Lynn.
Richard Ho and Lynn Scurfield, welcome to The Book of Life.
Thank you so much for having us.
Yeah, thank you.
I'm so glad you could be here. Richard, tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming the author that you are today.
I was a journalist originally, coming out of college. I did that for a number of years. And then I switched over to an educational company that makes animated videos for kids, to be used in classrooms. I had always had the dream of doing creative writing as a career. But it's not a very sustainable career. And it's hard to find steady work as a creative writer. So the fact that I found this job was sort of like, amazing and a miracle. And so I jumped on it, I ended up doing that for almost 13 years, that was sort of my creative outlet for a long time was my day job. And then it was at that job that I started getting interested in children's books as a potential way to flex those creative muscles. When we started having kids, I rediscovered the format of picture books and children's books in general and just fell in love all over again. So for the perspective of an adult, it was interesting to see the craft and just the format and the possibilities of this type of storytelling. And it got me so excited about potentially trying to write these myself. More specifically, I started writing picture book manuscripts after I showed pictures of our pet hedgehog to a colleague of mine. She's also a children's book illustrator. And so she saw these pictures of this really cute hedgehog and suggested that I write a story about him. That was the initial spark that got me into picture books. And from there, it just sort of escalated. It wasn't till fairly late in the game that I started writing stories specifically about my identity being Jewish and also being Chinese. That was sort of a duality that I wanted to write about, but hadn't really found an angle. And so I came up with the idea for Two New Years.
All right, very cool. Lynn, tell us about your path to becoming an illustrator of children's books. And about some of the books that you've illustrated.
I, I've always wanted to be just a general illustrator. As a kid, I loved drawing, and then I realized you can make money off of it. And then I saw Alphonse Mucha's work. And I was like, Oh, my God, illustration is like the way for me to go. So I went to Sheridan College for their illustration program back in 2011. And I graduated in 2015. And I basically had been freelancing. And I actually started in editorial illustration. I was just really lucky, I think, editorial, you do a lot of work really fast, constantly for different newspapers. And I think I was really lucky that I was getting that work. And then people could see all my new work because it's just making so much so quickly. My first picture book was with Orca Publishing, they're in BC. I was also known for drawing like more difficult subject matter at the time, like a lot of very sad stories. And this one was about the author's brother who's homeless, just talking about homeless people and how they're, you know, they're like everyone else. So Orca was like, okay, you draw hard stuff, you can draw this. I was like, okay, I can draw this. An exciting opportunity to draw kids' book and I've been just very lucky that I've been getting more work just steadily.
Okay. So I want to ask both of you to tell us about your new picture book, Two New Years.
I guess the idea for Two New Years came from this realization I had that our kids were growing up in this household that had both traditions and both cultures simultaneously. I'm a Jew by choice, so I converted in my 20's. So everything that I did was an intentional choice to take on Jewish practices and Jewish beliefs in addition to my Chinese upbringing. With my kids, they didn't have that choice. They were born Jewish. And they're in this environment where they're getting both in equal measure. And that, to me was fascinating. The idea that for them, there is no dissonance there, you know, it's just what they grew up with. It's what they know, all of these different traditions that they're learning and celebrating. It's part of who they are. And I really love that idea that this duality for them is perfectly natural. It's something that they were born with. At some point, the idea for this book was a little bit more broad. It was like different life events and different holidays throughout the year that are sort of parallel between Chinese and Jewish culture. And I realized quickly that that's not a picture book, that's like an encyclopedia. Like that's just, like that would be way too broad, and expansive. So narrowing it down to specifically the celebration of the new year is something that's so universal amongst cultures, like every culture has their way of bringing in a new year, looking back on the past year and looking forward to the next year. And so many of the things that I found within Judaism and Rosh Hashana and the Jewish idea of New Year, were so familiar because there were a lot of parallels to Chinese traditions and Chinese customs and practices that I grew up with. So to me, it was a natural choice to craft a book out of this topic.
All right! Lynn, tell us a little bit more about Two New Years from your point of view.
Yeah, so it's definitely always a little bit different being the illustrator because you're kind of joining in on the author's vision. But I remember getting the email from Feather. She was the editor, but then she left for a different job. And I was just like, shocked. So a little bit background of me. I'm half Chinese and half British Canadian. And my mom remarried and her new husband, my stepfather, he's Jewish, and I was like, shocked to be getting a manuscript that was about being half Chinese, and then half something else. But it's also like, having that Jewish portion to it, which is fairly new to my life. I've been very lucky that my step family has brought me in and been very supportive and loved to have me at all their celebrations. So I've been, I've been learning some of the culture, so it felt like it was very serendipitous to get this manuscript in my email. And I was like, okay, dropping everything, I have to draw this book, this is amazing, I would have never thought I'd get something like that.
And so to give you a little background, from my side, Feather came to me with like a list of Illustrator choices that she and the art director had come up with. And right away, when I saw Lynn's bio, I was like, this is perfect, because Lynn has both sides. To have an illustrator who can relate to the subject matter in such a close way, to me, it was perfect. And on top of that, I just fell in love with her style. And it was just like, everything is clicking here. Let's let's try to make this happen. And I'm so glad that it did.
Same, same, Richard, I love to hear that.
It's like beshert.
It really is, yeah,
Yeah. Lynn, what was your approach to illustrating this story? The text seems pretty wide open. So how did you figure out what to do with it?
It's something lovely about how open the text was, it could let me just kind of imagine and do what I want. It was just like, interesting. This whole book is about parallels. And then doing research and finding my own parallels, even just visual parallels, like the ketubah and then Chinese paper cutting. They're so decorative, and they're so similar in a lot of ways. And like the ketubah representing marriage and love. And then paper cutting is for like the New Year. I don't know how to properly express my thoughts. With the images, I think a lot of it was very intuitive, but I love just how free the text was. I could really just imagine scenes, and it gave me a lot of freedom. And it was just so nice. And I could apply these like extra visual levels to the text. There's just so much I can draw from. I don't know, it's hard to hard to answer. It's, I feel like sometimes it's a little too intuitive. Maybe I should try find ways to talk about my creative process.
Lynn, you mentioned paper cutting and I wanted to ask you about that because I think there is a paper cutting tradition in Judaism and in Chinese culture, maybe broadly Asian culture. I'm not sure.
I was actually very lucky. My previous book, Friends Are Friends Forever written by Dane Liu. That whole book is about paper cutting snowflakes. So I had to cut a ton of snowflakes. But I had so much fun with it. And I was like oh my god, I should just keep on doing paper cutouts. So I actually started my own just personal practice incorporating cutouts and I was like researching cutouts, just how were people doing it, like different styles. And then when I got the opportunity for this book, I was like oh my god, this is just melding everything together, and I went full out with the paper cutouts, like it was the greatest part of the drawing for the book.
Yeah, it's beautiful how the paper cutting sort of contains the paintings.
Yeah, I love them as like borders. It's such a, like a lovely visual element, just decorative borders. And then you have this image within.
When I saw the initial sketches, it included a lot of those borders. Breathtaking. I gasped the first time I saw it, I was like, this is amazing, this is gonna look so great. And I was familiar with that book. I love Friends Are Friends Forever. But I knew that style that you have. And I was so happy that you brought that over because it fits so well thematically and visually with what we're doing.
So beyond paper cutting, what is your illustration technique?
So I'm a mixed media illustrator, I do a lot of my stuff traditionally. And then I bring it into Photoshop and kind of digitally collage everything together. I do all my lines digitally now just because it's easier, it's faster. And then I will paint everything. So I'll do my lines digitally, I'll print them out. I've got my light pad and I have my watercolors and inks. And then I'll just paint the colors, I won't draw new lines, I'll just paint the colors. And then I'll scan those in, then I layer everything together. And I have a whole bunch of like old textures, paint swatches, and I will add those into the images, you get that tactile feeling of traditional media. But I can also make some pretty major edits, if for whatever reason, things have to be edited. So it's a little bit of a wacky process. My files are huge. If any illustrators are listening, it's like hundreds of layers, a little nuts, but it's very easy to edit, which is nice.
So rather than a plot driven story, this book helps us see all the ways in which the Jewish and Lunar New Years are similar. And I did want to note that the book refers to Lunar New Year rather than Chinese New Year because it's celebrated in a variety of Asian countries. So can you tell us about some of the interesting parallels between the two new years?
Yeah, so as you mentioned, it's not really plot driven. This is different from a lot of my other books. The way that I structured this one was I literally made a list of the parallels that I noticed right off the bat, and I sort of built everything out from there. So the one thing that I had to reconcile at the very beginning was the fact that the two new years don't happen at the same time of year. So the Lunar New Year, it's called Spring Festival, the name translates to Spring Festival from the Chinese. It usually takes place in January or February. So it's a little bit confusing. It's not actually in the spring, it's more like late winter. Rosh Hashanah is during the fall. So those two different time periods, I struggled a little bit because I didn't want it to be confusing. We have extensive backmatter in this book that explains the different calendars. And so we figured, okay, that should be okay. Beyond that, I think that the themes of renewal and prosperity, and getting together with family, those are things that are universal across almost every culture that celebrates the New Year. Specifically, there are so many interesting parallels with Rosh Hashanah and Lunar New Year. One of the things that right away caught my attention was this idea in Judaism of the simanim, the foods that we eat on the first night of Rosh Hashanah. And this idea that the foods, whether by their name, or by their nature, reflect the wishes that we have for the upcoming year, that's almost exactly what happens in Chinese culture as well. So this idea that the tangerine is such a common decoration in Chinese homes during the Lunar New Year, it's because tangerine, the name for it in Chinese phonetically sounds like the word for prosperity. So this idea of words doing like double meanings or wordplay is common in both cultures. And that to me was fascinating. So I wanted to do something about that. Then the foods themselves, I mean, like I, the food illustrations of Lynn, just incredible. And this is something that goes back to the other book, Friends Are Friends Forever, the spreads with all of the Chinese dishes are just like mouth watering. I knew that there's gonna be tons of spreads in this book that show off the different foods for Rosh Hashanah and for Lunar New Year. So the symbolism within foods is also very interesting. There's the idea of round foods. So the round challahs for Rosh Hashanah, and also like the dumplings and the various types of foods for Lunar New Year, both symbolizes unity, and also this idea that we want things to continue in a cycle. So there's a lot of these similar themes across both cultures that kept popping up. Also, this idea of getting together with family. The dedication for the book is actually with both my in laws and my parents, because with both holidays, you find that people, even kids who are grown up and move away from home, they all come back, they all come back to their parents or their grandparents. Like there's this huge family gathering for both holidays and that to me is just such a warm and lovely sentiment. To celebrate the start of a new year, we want to get together with those that we love and have family time and so those were things that I also want to include in the book.
Beautiful. I noticed that nowhere in the story or the back matter, does it say Shana Tova or a Chinese New Year phrase. Why did you decide to leave out that vocabulary?
It's interesting, it wasn't a conscious choice to leave that out. We were conscious of not having too much language in here that needed to be translated, to keep it as accessible as possible to not only Jews and Chinese readers, but for anybody that has this blending of cultures from their own backgrounds. We wanted to educate about terms from both cultures, but also not like overdo it. So that's one of the things that I guess was left on the cutting room floor. You know, we didn't have the traditional greetings for Lunar New Year and Rosh Hashanah. Certainly, there are a lot of things that we couldn't fit in just because like there's so much, it's such a rich topic that we couldn't fit everything in. So it's unfortunately one of the things that we didn't have room for.
So as you mentioned, there are wonderfully detailed notes at the back of the book going into depth about the traditions that are mentioned in the briefer, more poetic text of the story itself. And I was particularly intrigued by something that was in the notes, but it was not in the story. And tell me if I'm pronouncing this right. NEE-yin, Nee-YAN?
Yes, it's Nian, yeah, whenever you have these Chinese terms that are phoneticized in English, the pronunciation is never going to be exactly authentic. So yeah, Nian is perfectly fine.
Okay, so Nian, a monster from Chinese mythology that arrives every New Year's Eve to search for food and attack villages!
Yeah.
So can you tell us more about Nian?
Yeah. So that's one of those things that there's so many stories that Chinese kids grow up hearing. And a lot of the folklore and mythology of Chinese culture is not just known within the Chinese world, I feel like a lot of these are also in broader pop culture, have been adapted for movies and television shows and things like that. So this one, like so many of the practices that we find today, like firecrackers and dragon dances and things like that, come from this myth of the monster that comes and is looking for food. And the villagers come out with firecrackers and scare away. To me all of that mythology is fascinating, but didn't really fit within the structure of the main text, because like the main text is all about how we celebrate today. And all of these things have fascinating origins. Some of them are mythological, some of them are more just purely cultural. But I guess that's one of the things that thankfully, we were able to keep it in the back matter, we weren't able to have that in the main text, because it didn't really fit the flavor of the rest of the things that we're doing the main text.
But it sounds like a really intriguing story, I'd love to see you do a book about Nian.
Yeah, there's been a couple of books actually, I think Andrea Wang did one a couple of years ago, specifically about The Nian Monster. I would love to do it, I'd have to do a little more research into it. It's one of those things where I'm familiar with the story just from childhood. But I'd really want to delve into the origins and the the various versions that have comes out over the years before trying to do any sort of adaptation.
In May 2022, I blogged about books that include Jewish and Asian characters, and in some cases, characters who have a combined Jewish Asian identity. So thank you for adding to this list now! Did you see representation like this, when you yourself were a child reader?
I did not see this. When I was a kid, I don't think I was hyper aware of representation or lack of representation. I was born in New York, and I grew up in the suburbs of New York in predominantly a white neighborhood. So like, I wasn't even so aware of my own minority status, because I just sort of fit in with everybody else. The community that we were in wasn't super diverse. But it also wasn't discriminatory in any way. So like, I never felt like I was singled out or left out for being Asian. The media that I consumed, I just sort of consumed it from the white perspective. So I wasn't as aware as I probably should have been that there aren't that many characters out there in the books that I was reading that looked like me, it wasn't until I was an adult that I really noticed that gaping hole. And so as I was looking at the corpus of kids books out there, and realizing that there really was a lack of that representation, I sort of took it upon myself to see if there's anything that I can do about that. But it's got to be done in a natural way. Like it can't just be Oh, I'm going to do this because there are no books about Chinese Jews, so therefore, let's try to do something. I mean, like there needs to be a natural story that is good on its own beyond the presentation piece. That being said, these days, there's plenty of stories with Asian representation. And there's plenty of stories with Jewish representation, but the combination of the two is something that's much more rare.
Yeah. And Lynn, tell us about your experience with seeing this kind of representation.
Yeah, so funny, you're telling me about your upbringing. Richard, I feel very similar. Like I never really questioned when I was young, representation. I also grew up in a very predominantly white middle class suburb. There was probably light ribbing on the fact that I was Asian, but I never felt super othered for it either. I did know that being half was different. And I do give this to my parents, they were so good about teaching us that being half is great. And I think I'm one of the one of those people that I'm like, Yeah, I'm half and I'm super proud, whatever. You know, I'm, like, really thankful for that. But I never really questioned representation. And partially because I knew that just wasn't a lot of half kids when I was growing up. And it's kind of strange now being an adult and seeing like, all these mixed race families and being like, whoa, all those kids are half, and there's so many of you now, I was rare before. But um, yeah, I remember actually, when I was doing kidlit research, I was looking at books and think-- I could be misremembering this-- but I think Isabelle Arsenault illustrated a book about a spoon and a fork, making a spork. And that was the first time I was like, Whoa, half representation, this is wild! I was an adult too, and it's kind of wild to be like, oh, there aren't really a lot of books, even now, about having kids with mixed race. I do feel very honored to be able to contribute a book that feels very much like, I could really think of my brother and me growing up and like, what makes you half and like having two different looking parents, but you're a whole family. And it's, it's very special. I'm glad now that there's some representation happening. Even if I missed out on it, it's okay, I can be a part of it, which is pretty cool.
So beyond this book, and any other intersectional books that you might create, are there any other Asian Jewish intersectional titles that you would like to shout out?
I have to leave this to Richard. Partially because I don't read that much anymore. I'm just, like, drawing.
It's certainly not in the picture book space. There's probably more in like middle grade and YA, but I don't read as widely in those formats. So I did struggle to come up with books that I would want to shout out. I would love to shout out as many as possible, but there just aren't that many out there.
Are there any Asian and or Jewish books that you would like to shout out until such time as we get enough Asian and Jewish intersectional books to create a good list?
Absolutely. So yeah, I had mentioned Friends Are Friends Forever is a personal favorite in our household, specifically because of the Lunar New Year representation. And just the idea of Chinese kids coming to this country and having to adjust to the language and the culture really resonated. Even though I'm first generation, I was born here, I'm very keenly aware of my parents' experience, when they came over as newlyweds, they were coming to a new country. And all of the awkwardness and tension and struggle that they had to go through is something that I saw in the pages of that book. I'm gonna shout out one more book on the Jewish side, Joshua Levy just released The Jake Show, which is a middle grade novel about a Jewish kid who is going off to summer camp, but it's coming from a background of divorced parents, and they're each different on the scale of religious observance. It speaks to me in a lot of ways about Jewish identity and how you identify and how you relate to your own Judaism. So that to me is a book that I can't wait to give to my own kids when they're old enough to read it, because it speaks a lot to potentially what their experience will be like, or at least like facets of their experience.
I love it that you mentioned The Jake Sow because Jake, because Josh not Jake, Josh, was a guest on The Book of Life podcast just recently to talk about that. Excellent.
Awesome, that's synergy.
So yes, we're all fans of The Jake Show!
Yes.
It's tikkun olam time. What action would each of you like to call listeners to take to help heal the world?
Lynn? Would you like to go first?
Sure. I guess mine might be more targeted specifically for half kids. I guess what I would like to say is, I hope you feel enough. Like, don't ever feel like you're not enough of either part of you. It's beautiful that you're two different things, making one person and even if you don't feel enough, from one side or the other side, there's so much time in your life, you can always go and learn more. Talk to people, learn about your heritage, or your culture or your religion, like don't ever feel like you're not enough, you're perfect the way you are and there's always time to learn and become even more you can be even more so.
That's beautiful.
I love that. One of the things that I think a lot about during Rosh Hashanah time, you know, Rosh Hashanah is the start of the Yomim Noraim, the Days of Awe or the High Holy Days. So this time during the Jewish calendar, it's it's very intense and Rosh Hashanah leads into Yom Kippur. And there's a lot of the themes of forgiveness. And teshuvah is traditionally translated as repentance but a more accurate translation is actually return. So this idea that we're renewing ourselves in a way, we're looking back on our past deeds and reflecting and also resolving to do better. So this idea of forgiveness, especially with Yom Kippur, there is a tradition that before we go and ask forgiveness of God, we have to ask forgiveness of our fellow humans. And I love that idea. But I want to extend that, it's not just about asking for forgiveness from others, but it's also providing grace and forgiveness for yourself. I wish that everybody would, not just this time of the year, but in general, just be kind to ourselves and be kind to others. And in that way, I think tikkun olam like that would go a long way towards fixing a lot of the things that are wrong in the world.
I love that both of your tikkun olam suggestions are very internal, which I think is really appropriate for this time of year, for the new year, to be working on yourself.
Absolutely.
What are each of you working on next?
I have a couple of Jewish themed books that are coming out over the next year or two. The next one I have coming out is going to be next spring. It's called A Taste of Home. It's basically about a group of children on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. They're sent by their mothers to bring back a taste of home. So the idea is there's all these ethnic neighborhoods embedded within the lower East Side. So you've got all these different cultures that are living next to each other, and how wonderful it would be if the kids all became friends and went looking for food together and shared their cultures' foods together. And then later on next year, I've got a Hanukkah book coming out, Golem, Golem, Golem, and it's basically a spin on the dreidel, dreidel, dreidel song. A Jewish kid is so bored with making dreidels out of clay that he takes this lump of clay and makes a golem instead. Hijinks ensue.
That sounds hilarious. I was looking at your website, and a non-Jewish Book that just personally I found interesting was a book about the painter Bob Ross.
Yes!
Who I just adore. It's the most relaxing thing to watch. Bob Ross Joy of Painting. I even have a board game called The Art of Chill.
I've seen all of the various types of merchandise around Bob Ross. He is amazing.
I have Bob Ross socks! I'm a fan.
So I am also a fan. I'm mildly obsessed with him. And the fact that that came together, which is a dream come true. I grew up watching him on PBS. And as you say, it is so relaxing that sometimes if I have trouble sleeping at night, I'll just put on an episode of Bob Ross...
Me too!
...and I'm out like a light, within like fifteen minutes. I can't make it through a whole episode, it's just too relaxing.
Lynn, tell us what else you're working on.
I have a book that just came out. It's called Flight. It's only in the UK for now though, so that's frustrating, but it's about eight birds and their migratory paths. And it's like kind of an epic, it's 64 pages fully illustrated I'm hoping it'll come over to North America sometime soon, fingers crossed. But then I also have a book coming out next year called Quest for a Tangram Dragon. Tangrams are... I think it's seven shapes. Oh man, I should know this off by heart. I've been drawing them so much. But I think it's seven shapes. There's like two big triangles, a medium triangle, two small triangles, a square and a parallelogram. All together, they make one square. And basically what you do is that you can use all these different shapes to make other shapes. You can make like an ostrich or you can make a house or you can make a rocket and it's all really using your imagination and how the shapes can make other things. So in Chinese mythology, dragons bring rain and in this world, there's a drought and Little Triangle has their own little garden but everything is like so dry. So they're looking for a dragon to bring rain and bring the crops back to life. So Little Triangle meets all their friends. They build things together. It's a pretty fun story, I'm really excited for it.
That sounds adorable.
Thank you!
Who's the author of that book?
Oh, Christine Liu-Perkins.
Are tangrams actually Asian in origin?
They are! Yeah, supposedly they were from China. So pretty cool.
Yeah. All right. And who's the author of Flight?
Mya-Rose Craig. She is like a very accomplished birder. I think she's the youngest person to see the most birds in the world. She's very knowledgeable about birds. I'm like happy that I could try and capture a little bit of her knowledge in my pictures. I had to brush up on birds quite a bit.
Yeah, I'm also a birder, so I'm excited about that book. I really hope it'll come out in the US.
Oh my gosh. Heidi, I wish I could give you my copy so you could look at it because it's pretty cool.
I can't wait to see it. Did you have to do a lot of research to accurately portray the birds?
Yes, that one was like super research heavy. I spent a lot of time on iNaturalist looking at everyone's uploaded photos to get like a proper angle. And I was like online looking for 3D models of places and like historical buildings so I could get the right angle and lots of documentaries. We did one whole section on the Spoon-billed Sandpiper, which is a very endangered bird, the more endangered ones have the best research. Because like it's a lot of preservation going on and --pretty cool.
Where can listeners learn more about each of you and your work?
I am on Twitter. My handle is @Richkarho, R I C H K A R H O. And that's also my Instagram handle. I am on Facebook, although not very frequently. I also have a website, RichardHoBooks.com.
And you can find me on my website. Ly nnScurfield.com. L Y N N S C U R F I E L D. com. I've been very quiet on social media, but I've been trying to upload more on Instagram. So you can follow me at @LynnDoodle. And I am on Twitter but I don't post a lot my own stuff on Twitter but I'm @LynnDoodles, Lynn Doodles with an S.
So one with an S and one without?
Yes. A little confusing.
Okay. Is there anything else that either of you want to talk about that I haven't thought to ask you?
I did want to mention, my background is Orthodox Judaism. So when it came time to talk about the illustrations, first with Feather and then later on with Naomi Kirsten, who was the editor who took over after Feather left, trying to walk that line between, we want this book to be as accessible across the entire Jewish spectrum as possible, but also be true to my family's experience. So I wasn't sure like how much to push when it came to details, like having the mother's hair covered, the girls wearing skirts and things like that. And Feather and Naomi, both were really supportive in making sure that we did add details like that. I was very hesitant at the beginning to bring up notes like that when I was seeing the sketches. The sketches were so amazing, and I loved everything about it. But then they were like, you know, if you feel like this is more authentic to your experience, say it, say something and then we'll pass it along to Lynn and we'll see what happens. And the end result is just so incredible. I got comments on social media about how like seeing a Jewish woman with a tichel on, on the cover, was amazing. They had never experienced that before. That representation, you know, from a religious perspective, is also so important. And I'm just so happy that Lynn was open to it and did the research. Like she nailed it when it came to details about Orthodox Jewish life throughout this book, and I'm just so happy about that. I wanted to mention that.
Oh, man, I'm so glad that you feel like I did a good job because my family is Reform egalitarian. So we're not like Orthodox, and I don't have any Orthodox people in my life. So I was like, oh, man, I always want to respect the author's wishes. That's half the job of being an illustrator is like, like it is me drawing, but I'm also here as a service to make the book, right? It's the author's book, too. So when I got those notes back, I was like, Okay, let's do this. I'm just, I just got to research it. You know, like, if this is what Richard wants, this is his family. I'm going to make it happen. I just hope it's like, authentic and like, people feel I did a good job.
You did an amazing job. Yes, thank you so much for all of that. Even details like in the synagogue scene with the separation of the men of the women and the mechitza in the middle, like just amazing. A lot of people won't know the difference, and that's fine. But for the people that do know the difference, I think it's important to have that. And what you're saying about the author and the illustrator, like I never view it as the illustrator is there to please the author. To me, it's an equal partnership. So there's always room for that back and forth for the sake of the book. And if it serves the book better to have something depart from the author's vision, I'm totally open to that. In this case, it just worked out that everything was just amazing. And I'm very lucky.
Same, honestly. And actually, I do want to ask you a question, because I think while I was reading the text... Do you have two boys? Because I think I changed it to be a boy and a girl.
We have four boys actually.
Oh my gosh. Okay!
So I knew from the very beginning that like it wasn't going to be an exact analog of our family and I think it's better to have the boy and a girl. it's just more of like a universal family, right, the nuclear family. I didn't even have any thought about the father character looking like me but he really looks like me! I kind of love that. I'm thinking about making him my avatar on social media.
Oh my god, please do!
That's a great idea!
Like I mean, going back to like, you know, giving and taking, I guess making changes. I have a younger brother so it was so nice to like, put myself in there. I became the kid, I was like the older sister and I put my younger brother in, that was like really fun. I could inject some of my own family in there too.
That's awesome.
Well, that makes me want to ask you, are there any hidden afikomens in the book that you can reveal to us beyond what you just said about it representing yourself and your brother?
I almost put my parents in, but it was a little weird. And I was like, I can't do that. I thought about it though. I think other than that, when I do illustrations a lot of it is like, when I was drawing the house I was like oh it would be so nice to have a house with stained glass, so I put some stained glass in the house. And even like I had a money plant in the house, because I was like, oh, you know, I have a money plant now and it's just, it's such like a nice little plant to have. So I think the biggest easter egg personally is having like my brother, kind of sort of in there, not looking like him. But he's in there. Everything else is just a little like, oh, you know, a tablecloth? What if I had a tablecloth? What would it look like?
So it's you kind of making a wish list?
Yeah, a little bit. What do I want the characters to wear? What do I think is fun? And I go like searching for clothing.
Do either of you have any questions for each other?
So many questions, just about like craft and the creation of the art. Like I'm always fascinated to talk to illustrators, and find out how they do what they do. Do you ever go out into nature with a canvas and like paint and just like paint that way, like the traditional way?
Richard! I used to in school, that's the thing, like we had homework where you had to do that. And I love to do plein air painting. But I guess it's a problem of being a full time illustrator is that I get so caught up in my work that by the time the day is done, I'm like, do I want to draw anything else? I don't know, I'm tired. I haven't done it in forever. It's actually funny because I've been a little bit on my own solo artist's journey of like, I need to go back and do some of these things I used to do in school that really fulfilled me creatively. And I'll like look outside and I'll be like, Wow, that's sunset's beautiful, maybe I should paint it. Long answer. I don't, but I wish I did. I kind of like want to get back into it. Because there's a lot of fundamentals even in just plein air painting, like practicing mixing colors, and how do you like look at tones, and capture something really quickly? It's all good practice for image making.
Yeah, I hear you that you have to take a vacation from your day job to go into more of your day job. That doesn't really work.
I know. It's, it's like you almost have to do it. It kinda sucks but you kind of have to do it too.
A working vacation.
Yes. Oh, no. Everything's for work. Oh, man. I guess maybe a question for me just generally is how is it raising kids who are half? Okay, maybe this is a more structured question. I've always been like, I wish my mom taught me how to speak Chinese. I don't know anything. I rib her on it quite often. Are you teaching your kids, both Yiddish and also, I'm assuming it's Mandarin. Or maybe it's Cantonese?
Cantonese for us. Yeah. So my parents speak Cantonese. And I grew up speaking Cantonese in the house, I have a very similar situation, you know, growing up in the US. I wasn't in a Chinese community so I didn't go to Chinese school. You know, I went to American public school. So what I got was from my parents at home, and they did a decent job of making sure that I knew how to speak, they also tried to teach me how to read and write and I just wasn't having it. I didn't have the attention span for it. You know, I was too busy watching Sesame Street and and going out with friends and stuff like that. So, so I regret not doing more of the language acquisition when I had a chance. So for my kids, they're even further removed, two generations removed. You know, my parents try to give them as much as they can when they come to visit, but they're not living with them. So it's not the kind of thing where they can immerse in the language. And I'm not as proficient as my parents. So whatever language I pass on to them, it's going to be imperfect. We're trying because I don't want them to lose it. The worst thing in the world would be to completely lose that strand. But it's hard when they're not in an environment that sort of cultivates it. But yeah, they're in Jewish schools, and they're learning Hebrew and religious studies and things like that. So they're getting a lot from two different sides. I am conscious of not overwhelming them with too much on either side. But at the same time, they have a unique opportunity to learn Cantonese and to learn Hebrew. We take advantage as much as we can. Yeah, it's fascinating because wasn't my experience growing up. I'm fully Chinese; to be half is such a cool in-between, you've got a foot in both worlds, you're taking the best of everything. I envy them in a lot of ways. I kind of wish I had that experience growing up.
Oh, man. I mean, I'm envious of you and your family, that your family actually spoke to you in Cantonese. I'm like, Mom, why?
I know. It's... and at a certain point, it's too late. You know, like, you have to learn it as a very little kid with Cantonese or with Mandarin. Like the inflections are so nuanced that as an adult, you can never accurately replicate it.
It's true. I'm like, Mom, even if you just taught me how to like pronounce, I would be okay. But now I started with nothing.
Yeah, you're still ahead of most people. But like, yeah, it's, it's hard. It's hard. I feel like I'm losing it too. I go to Chinatown and I can get by but like I used to be a lot better.
Well, that just made me think to ask you, when you mentioned going to Chinatown. I don't even know where I'm speaking to you from. So, Richard, where are you located?
So I'm in Passaic, New Jersey. It's North Jersey. It's only about half an hour to 45 minutes outside of Manhattan. So this will be the Chinatown in New York City. And I grew up in Westchester, which is also very close to the city. And so I would say, once a week or once every two weeks, our family would go down to Chinatown to do shopping, or I would get my hair cut in Chinatown. Like I was very familiar with that area. So a lot of ways I did have a lot of exposure to Chinese culture growing up.
And Lynn, where are you?
I'm in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. And I actually grew up like 30 minutes away from the city. It's very similar, honestly, in a nice suburb. Toronto's cool. We've got a Chinatown too, go there every once in a while. Yeah.
All right. Richard Ho and Lynn Scurfield, Shana Tova --and what's the greeting for Lunar New Year?
There's two actually, the two main ones are gong hei fat choy and then there's sun nin fai lok. They're kind of interchangeable. They mean similar things, but you'll find both of those in use.
Okay. Excellent. Well, Happy New Year. And thank you so much for speaking with me!
Thank you so much for having us.
Yeah, thank you so much. This has been super fun!
[MUSIC, DEDICATION] Hi, this is E Train. I'm a literacy advocate, author interviewer and kidlit book lover. I'll be joining you soon on The Book of Life podcast and I'd like to dedicate my episode to my mom and dad. My mom helps out a lot when it comes to script writing. And my dad is always behind the scenes and editing all my interviews and book reviews. So, I love you two, and I'm so excited for you to listen to this podcast.
[MUSIC, OUTRO] Say hi to Heidi at 561-206-2473 or bookoflifepodcast@gmail.com Check out our Book of Life podcast Facebook page, or our Facebook discussion group Jewish Kidlit Mavens. We are occasionally on Twitter too @bookoflifepod. Want to read the books featured on the show? Buy them through Bookshop.org/shop/bookoflife to support the podcast and independent bookstores at the same time. You can also help us out by becoming a monthly supporter through Patreon. Additional support comes from the Association of Jewish Libraries, which also sponsors our sister podcast, Nice Jewish Books, a show about Jewish fiction for adults. You'll find links for all of that and more at BookofLifepodcast.com Our background music is provided by the Freilachmakers Klezmer String Band. Thanks for listening and happy reading!
[MUSIC, PROMO] During World War II, Japanese citizens were rounded up and sent to internment camps. When they were finally released, the vast majority had lost their homes and businesses. In the upcoming episode of Nice Jewish Books, I speak with Josh Tuininga about one of the rare exceptions to this appalling situation. Josh focuses on the Sephardic Jewish community in Seattle, Washington, where the friendship between Marco Calvo and members of the Japanese community ripple through the generations. I'm Sheryl Stahl. Join me for a conversation with author artist Josh Tuininga about his latest work, We Are Not Strangers. Find us at JewishLibraries.org/NiceJewishBooks.
