Welcome to front and center, from the political battlefields to cooperative playing fields. Today is our first show. And I'm a rookie at this and you'll see see it as we go. But I'm Michael Maxsenti. And before I introduce our first guest, Charles Eisenstein, I wanted to have my partner Steve Bhaerman. Tell us how you first met Charles.
Thanks, Michael. And hi, Charles, I think goes back to maybe 2009. It was after the ascent of humanity book. And I think I met you at Georgia Kelly's Praxis peace conference in Sonoma, in 2009. And then in 2012, I interviewed you for a series that we called involuntary simplicity. It was right after sacred economics. So I've been following your work. You've been on our radar since that time, so it's really great to have you on the show.
Yeah, great to connect again.
Well, I first was introduced to Charles back in 2011, by my co founder of rebellious truce, when one of the first things he gave me when we started working together was a copy of sacred economics. And he said, I really would like you to read this. And that, what started me following Charles and then we invited Charles to be a guest and be interviewed for our show for rebellious truce for our YouTubed. And we went up to San Francisco and spent most of the day with Charles, up at the view room, above the top of the Marriot there by Moscone Center, and Charles and was interviewed by Chris, my co founder for about four hours. And when we got on the airplane to come back to Orange County, the film crew, and Chris were so excited, talking about what a great interview and all of these amazing concepts that you had brought forth, Charles, and I listened to them the whole way back. And just before we touchdown, I looked at him and I said, guys, keep it in the can. And they looked at me, what do you mean? And I said, we're not gonna edit this, we could give me this was just this greatest interview. This guy's amazing. And I said, it's way too far advanced for our audience at this time. We're not even going to edit it, keep it there. And at some point, these concepts and the timing will be right. And they were just disappointed. I'll get out the next day, did I reconsider and said, Nope. But now fast forward. To more books later, 10 years go by? Now the timing is absolutely in my opinion, correct. And Charles, you, I think, are now at the right time for your message. And I've been telling people ever since I met you that Charles holds a lantern for humanity to navigate towards through the fog. And I truly believe that you help us with that new story. And that is the foundation of our show is the book that you wrote, the more beautiful world our hearts know as possible. Charles? Oh, before, before I turn it over to you and ask you to respond to that though. Let me just say that Charles has four sons. He's living with his wife and youngest child in Rhode Island. He's an essayist. He's a speaker. And most importantly, he's a wonderful human being. And I consider him a great visionary. Charles, tell us about what you see. As the more beautiful world our hearts know as possible.
Yeah, well, thank you for that introduction. I'd forgotten about that interview. Yeah, we would have like I sometimes I give these long interviews and then, you know, for a documentary or something like three minutes get used or five minutes, and I always wonder what happens to those things.
This never even got published.
I'm glad at least one person heard it though.
There were five of us.
So yeah. And as for a wonderful human being part I'm not you know, have you ever seen that bumper sticker don't meet the author. Enough said
We'll give you the benefit of the doubt there, Charles. Okay. Thanks. That's, that's being a human being. We work we all qualify for that.
Yeah. Now I could maybe even segue that though to the more beautiful world our hearts know as possible because it is based on a different view of human nature than the one that runs our society. And it might even provide another lens to look at, oh, who do we consider a wonderful human being, and who is just a horrible human being, as if that were some innate quality of them, rather than a product of their situation, a product of their circumstances. And because I don't know, if you've ever had this realization, when you really understand where someone is coming from, then you think, yeah, you know, if I were in their shoes, I might have done what they did. If I were in that subculture, if I had received that trauma, if I had those, those surroundings, those physical limitations, etc, etc, maybe I would do is they do. So part of the surroundings, or the circumstances that we are in we, meaning most human beings on this planet, at least to the extent that they have received a modern education, that they use money to participate in a market economy, etc, etc, it's a pretty broad we, we are immersed in what I call the story of separation, that tells us, it's a mythology. Basically, it tells us who we are, what's real, how to be a man how to be a woman, what's important how to live life, what the purpose of a human being is, tells us the nature of change how change happens, it, it narrates our political reality, our social reality, and even maybe our material reality. And my basic premise of all of my work, is that this story that has carried civilization for hundreds, if not 1000s, of years, and intensified in our time, is breaking down, leaving us with a crisis of meaning, a crisis of identity, a uncertainty, a panic, even, but also a sense of a possibility, a possibility of transcending the age old circumstances that we've called human, the human condition. And that's why I call it the more beautiful world our hearts know as possible. Because that feeling often goes against what the rational mind, which is steeped in the old story believes to be possible. But the heart knows that yeah, the world is supposed to be and can be so much more beautiful, authentic, joyful, harmonious and alive, then what we're accustomed to. So that's that's the basic premise of it. And I'll pause there to see if you want to. Yeah.
Steve, you want to jump in with a question?
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just I'm very curious as to you, you did the book on the ascent of humanity, which I read many years ago, sacred economics, which is a very powerful book as well. How did you come to this third book? And in that, in that trilogy, how did how did that idea emerge for you, and why that phrase, the more beautiful world,
I actually in the dedication line of the ascent of humanity, which I must have written in 2006. It says, dedicated to the more beautiful world, our hearts tell us is possible. So that phrase has been with me for a long time. And it it carries a kind of a poetic resonance, that honors maybe sub linguistic level delivers some of the thesis of the book. That's why I chose the title.
You think over this period of time, it's been quite a, what is it? 10 years, perhaps since you wrote that book? Eight years eight
since it was published. But yeah, the writing process was nine years ago.
What is there anything that that surprised you in the feedback that you got on this book that you went? Wow, I didn't think about that. Is there anything that that came out yet after the book came out? That created a sense of my Wow, that's, I didn't expect that or oh, this is new for me. Anything like that?
Well, I guess a book like that That speaks very deeply to people can trigger all kinds of emotions, positive and negative projections. So I was not prepared for that level of projection. Not I mean, the book was did not actually reach that wide audience. You know, maybe over the years sold 100,000 copies or so not a lot more, I don't I don't think. So it's not like, you know, it's not like I became a celebrity, but because of the powerful effects that the book has on people. I, you know, had to get used to people thinking automatically that I'm a wonderful human being, and therefore, you know, must meet an extremely high standard that is, in line with the lofty visions that the book describes. And then they're very disappointed when I don't meet that standard sometimes. Or they're like, their people could see the thing is when you when you behold, a possibility that is so different from our current reality. It can be also very, very upsetting, it can be challenging, because it puts the question to you, Well, why am I living not only in this old story, but but as this old story, because the stories inhabit us, just as we inhabit them. So it's like the same thing that that youthful idealism triggers in all people like us. There's a kind of a hostility, kind of want to bring them down. So some people react to the book with with hostility, like like, what kind of crap is this, you know, it's namby pamby airy, Fairy, New Age, nonsense, and so forth. Even though, I kind of anticipated that I did my best to defuse that kind of dismissal. And this is actually a kind of a bad habit of using sometimes, like, overly academic language, you know, just to say, but but I'm smart. So don't dismiss me, just because I'm articulating something very idealistic and seemingly unrealistic. Because part of my point is that even our idea of what is realistic or practical, depends on a theory of change that is obsolete. So I actually can't say what I am called to say and stay practical, credible, responsible.
Charles, one of the things for many people, would we talk about story? Can you elaborate on the importance and power of story? And how, and how you talk about mythology, your work to change that story?
Yeah. Most of what we consider to be real, is actually a story. Now, I could take this to a metaphysical level, and talk about quantum information and, and observation and so forth. But let's, you know, for now, we can limit it to the political, financial, economic, legal dimensions, the social dimensions. So for example, when someone says, Okay, let's be realistic here, very often what they're talking about is money. Money is if nothing is more, if nothing embodies practicality, and realism more than money, I don't know what it is. Yet, money is a set of agreements among human beings. The same thing with law. It's the same thing with property. All of these things exist only in the realm of human agreement. And what brings us into agreement is the way that we organize reality into concepts and a narrative. This is what tells us who we are and what's real. So the power of these stories is it reaches every aspect of us as social beings. Now this is being this is quite well understood among political operatives, who are always about especially these days, like they're always asking, anytime some information arises, okay? Does it serve our narrative or not? And if it doesn't, regardless of whether it's true, then it needs to be suppressed. Because it's so they have this consciousness of the way that story creates reality. What I'm talking about, I mean, sometimes I do touch on the more superficial political stories. Traditionally, conservatives have been much better storytellers, than liberals. Although I believe that I would like to say that, well, I was gonna say that that's changed or maybe reversed in the last five years. But I'm not even sure who's liberal and who's conservative anymore. Because anyway, that's, that's a whole other topic. But just to say that, that mostly what I'm talking about are deeper stories, such as, What is a self. The old story, the story of separation says that a self is a discrete, separate individual, in a world of other world that operates by the application of force, a world that is a gigantic melee, of forces and masses. And that our progress as human beings, is to exert control over a world that is random, to impose intelligence onto a world that has none. So once you accept this basic mythology, then very much of our agricultural practices, medical practices, political ideologies, they all make sense. They all draw from that basic paradigm. So if the notion of progress is a key pillar of this edifice of our civilization, so that's the kind of thing that that I am overturning, or trying to overturn, and replace with another story. And then I look at how exactly our society is built on that story. For example, how money embodies a story of separation, how it, how it creates a situation, and environment in which we do experience ourselves as separate competing individuals. So it so money is one of the ways that a ideology and ideology or story becomes true in our experience, and brings out a certain aspect of human nature that we then take as elemental, you know, we take that as, oh, that's human nature. So we mistake a fact for cause I hope that was coherent.
I want to follow up with, can you elaborate on the power of intentions, because to me, story, writing our new store together, which is the subtitle to the show, the importance of our intentions, and the power of those intentions.
Yeah. See, this is the puzzle. Here we have right now. A society full of people with good intentions. I think one of the main errors of perception that we commit in our time, is that we ascribe evil intentions to our opponents, when they don't actually have evil intentions. They're just acting from a different set of information and experiences. When we ascribe evil intentions to them, then they think we're crazy. Because they know very well. I'm a good person. You know, I'm not trying to enslave humanity. I'm not trying to, to call the population and like all these stories that we make about the other side, and the other side reads, and they seem ridiculous. So this is the puzzle. How is it that we have now maybe there are some human beings who have very evil, selfish intentions, not saying there's no such thing as a predator or a psychopath? However, most people, I believe, and this is just my experience of them are well intentioned. How is it that the sum total of all of these good intentions is the dystopia that we have been moving toward for my whole lifetime? Why, why does that happen? How is that happening? That's the question. I don't think that good intentions are any guarantee of good good results.
Yeah, clearly that the clear that's true. And I'm just wondering since you wrote the the more beautiful World Book, do you do you see us closer to achieving that further away? Does it seem more abstract or more real or not because I wrote a book on your spontaneous evolution, the posit our positive future and a way to get there from here. And, you know, at the time to Bruce Lipton and I wrote that it was, you know, that really seemed like, we can do that. And then that was 12 years ago. So now, looking back on the past eight or 10 or 12 years, is there something that you you didn't know, now that you know, then it's just something that makes you feel more encouraged or less encouraged?
I like that question. It's something I don't know, now that I knew, then.
You know, that's even better. I was so much older than I'm younger than that now. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, you know, in those days, it looked like, we were starting to get it, you know, looks like control based high tech medicine was kind of on the way out, and people were awakening to the microbiome and to holistic medicine. And there was this massive movement toward alternative therapies, and, and toward organic agriculture, and permaculture and restorative justice practices and like things looked like they were on the right track. Yeah, sure. There were still some dinosaurs in positions of power, but it looked like the mass consciousness was really accelerating in a good direction. And then COVID came along. And wow, everybody defaulted back to quite a narrow orthodoxy. So and, and, you know, at the same time, fascistic or totalitarian trends have dramatically intensified. And the control of centralized big tech has intensified, and the whole ideology of progress that I described before as an increasing ability to control the world, for example, in the form of tracking, surveilling, labeling microchipping, everything, and everyone like, that seems to be ascending as well. So in a way, it looks like we're moving away from a new story, and doubling down on the old story. But I wonder still, if this isn't kind of the last gasp of a dying ideology, that if, because where does like what is the process by which a human being or a society emerges? From an old self, an old story and old identity into a new one, it inevitably involves a process of breakdown, in which you are every effort to maintain life as it was the comfortable, familiar life, and to maintain yourself as who you were, finally fails. And you're left in what I call in the book, the space between stories left in the space between stories, where you just give up on knowing who you are, and what's real anymore. And I think that that's happening to a lot of people, even the proliferation of conspiracy theories, is evidence of this breakdown, where the, the meaning that everybody agreed on, or almost everybody, it was a, a general agreement about who we were and what the world was that encompass most of society. For most of my lifetime, that is disintegrating. And so people in their existential panic, they reached for a replacement story of everything. We had a story of everything like to take us as Americans, for example. You know, there was a whole part of the mythology was, what America was and democracy and freedom and bringing it to the world. And, and yeah, that was racism. But we're working on that. Yeah, poverty, we're working on that better and better upward and onward. Like that whole mythology that that was most intense, maybe the United States, but it includes pretty much the whole industrialized world like that. It was robust, but it's breaking down now. Like we were supposed to have perfect health by the impossibly futuristic year of 2020. The common cold is supposed to have been eliminated. 20 years ago. I mean, you're, you're my age or older, right? You remember? Yeah, like science fiction in the 60s in the 70s. I mean, come on. We're gonna live in paradise. And, and as that vision fails, people get desperate. So they're reaching for these alternatives. Stories of everything, theory of everything. Oh, it's evil Illuminati, and their alien overlords who are harvesting psychic energy by, you know, through human trafficking and etc, etc. Like, and I'm not saying, okay, when I call something a myth, by the way, I don't mean that as a slander.
It doesn't mean that I'm saying it's just a myth. What I'm saying is that it is a myth and our current ideology, the entire corpus of science, that that is a myth, as well, doesn't mean that it's not useful, and not in some sense, true. No. So anyway, I'm not passing a judgement here on some of these conspiracy theories or alternate mythologies. Obviously, they can't all be true, because they all contradict each other. Like, Steve, do you believe in the flat earth or the hollow Earth? You know, okay, so
lt's flat on top, we know that.
It looks flat to me, anyway, but what I'm saying is like, like, true or false, okay, these alternative stories of everything, they are a symptom of the breakdown in sense and meaning and identity. And they are kind of like a last last gasp, but like, like, like, grasping at another straw before the phase of true surrender, of true uncertainty of, of being willing to not know, that's the empty space of space between stories in into which something truly new can arise. Yeah.
we know, this is a really good segue, Michael, for for us to look at what what's recently happened to you. You ventured into, into the domain of current events. Oh, while back a month or two ago, and you wrote this, this piece on the mob morality and the unvaccinated and, you know, I could I could feel the reverberations all the way over on this coast, from the way that people responded to that. So tell us a little bit about what prompted you to write that. And in sort of a before math in the aftermath of that, of that article, and in post.
Yeah, so i Alright, so for one thing, I'm half Jewish. And I have kind of a lineage of, of, you know, some of my ancestors escaped pogroms and and I've always had this heightened sensitivity to mob dynamics, to scapegoating to, to this, this social phenomenon that goes back for millennia. That was described very clearly by the philosopher, Rene Girard, which is essentially you have social tension of some kind, the original social social tension, and the biggest threat to society in archaic times, was cycles of vengeance. blood feuds that would rip societies apart before they even really had a chance to get going. And the solution to these to these boiling tensions in a society was to find a sacrificial victim, or a class of victims and unite in violence, murder them. And problem solved. Because the the bloodlust and the desire for vengeance, and the desire to set matters, right. That was satiated by the killing. So then, these killings became integrated into myths, and legends and morals. And basically, the logic was that if killing this scapegoat brought peace to society, then they must have been responsible for the conflict to begin with. So this pattern is imprinted indelibly into human beings, we are we instinctively respond to social turmoil, with this reflex, to find the scapegoat to find the culprit to find the person responsible. So, fascist totalitarians, power hungry demagogues, they can hijack this energy directed toward a victim of choice or a victim class of choice and use that to gain power. So I embarked on a series of essays attempting to defuse that by bringing it into greater awareness. And one of the examples that I used in the third part of, of this essay series called mob morality in the advanced. I was like, Yeah, this, these scapegoating dynamics are being directed at the unvaccinated who are being like one of the classic patterns is that the sacrificial subclass is dehumanized, and seen as a source of contagion. So that like, even if you associate with them, then you're suspect like in the Salem witch hunts, or in the European witch hunts, if you even were associated with obey, which then you'd be accused of witchcraft to. And the only way to protect yourself would be to accuse them to accuse somebody. So when when the mob takes form, all it needs is a few ring leaders who are who are pointing at the victims. And then maybe a good portion of the mob agrees with them. It's like, Yeah, let's go get them. And but maybe there's a silent majority, that's like, oh, boy, I better not raise my voice, where I'm going to get scapegoated to. So you don't even need a majority. Anyway, so I described these mob dynamics that are taking shape against the unvaccinated that, regardless of the science, I didn't go that much into the science, I'm saying whether or not there is a scientific justification for the ostracism, and maybe forced vaccination of these people. What is happening here is not science. To make that argument, I briefly argued that the science is not, at the very least is not as certain, as we are officially told. And that part really got people upset. So, you know, and this is like, kind of like, a temperature of our time. I've been on writing alternative health stuff. I mean, even in the sense of humanity, I think I referred to there's a chapter called The War on germs. Right? You know, I talked about how the pattern of finding a bad guy and going to war against the bad guy infiltrates medicine. And, and the idea that well, being comes through control takes shape in Okay, let's find the thing to kill. Like, I've been writing about this for a long time. And it never got me cancelled and denounced, you know, but now, the realm of acceptable unorthodox opinion has has shrunk to the point where a lot of what I'm saying now is getting me like I got, you know, denounced by my publisher, I got cancelled from these events and stuff accused of being an anti Semite.
You're only half an anti Semite, obviously.
Right? Yeah. So So yeah, it's, um, I don't know what else you want me to say about it? That's the background anyway.
Were you surprised? I mean, you can see that there was this building? I mean, because you were reading about it. Were you surprised at the reactions and how strong those reactions were? And how, in a certain regard, irrational.
I shouldn't have been surprised. It was, I was I was shocked. Like, on a physical level, I felt a certain amount of shock. But also kind of be amusement, because the response to the essay was such a perfect illustration of the thesis of the of the essay. Because all of a sudden, I became unclean. And people like, you know, canceled me from events, even if they agreed with the essay. They still didn't want me on the event, because my name did become radioactive. Hmm. So yeah, that's, that's a perfect illustration of mob dynamics.
Michael, you have a question coming in? Yeah, I
Yes, I was. Charles, I want to ask you, do you think that the attacks and this polarization is purposeful? By by some, and I know we're going into some touchy territory about that.
Yeah. I can put on the lens of conspiracy, and say that there's some level in which, like I can, I can look at the world that way. This was all planned. The events around COVID-19 are perfectly organized. treated to, you know, suppress natural and alternative therapies to make the make the vaccine the only solution to the to vaccine passports to be to the totalitarian control of everybody like that lens illuminates a lot. And it helps predict what the next step is going to be. And so I can use that lens. Am I sure that that's true? No. There there. There are certainly things that are hard to explain in any other way. Especially if you go down the rabbit hole of Kennedy assassinations, you know, 911 and all that stuff. However, I don't spend much effort arguing for or against that way of seeing things, because, for me, the question is, okay, even if there are these diabolical conspirators, who infest the halls of power, or even are pulling the strings, what gives them that power? They don't have like, superpowers, it'll have bigger muscles, or, like, what gives them that power? It's the power of in the end, it's because people are agreeing to conform to their plans. So I'm much more interested in what make people what makes people susceptible to the dynamics of the mob, which then get hijacked by totalitarians? What makes people susceptible to propaganda? What keeps us apart from each other? So I look at, for example, to take the vaccine issue, I mean, although maybe I shouldn't even say that word because the AI is going to pick it up and suppressor. You can bleep that out if you want to take the injectable substance that shall shall not be named as an example. On both sides, actually, yeah, there is a lot of dehumanization of the other side. So the vaccine skeptics, the oops, said the word again. The skeptics and the resistors. They assume sometimes that virologists and medical researchers are just clueless, corrupt, incompetent, you know, they just overlook this obvious thing. And that, and maybe there's, I mean, I think that there there is institutional bias and paradigm protection and so forth. But come on, like, do you actually talk to a mainstream scientist, and really understand the world from her point of view? Not that often. And then on the mainstream side, I was just the other day looking at on Instagram and Tiktok. Looking at people's reports, these are self reports of vaccine damage. Oops, set it again, of being damaged by you know what? And, you know, the comments, like, it seemed like really sincere people and they're describing, like being paralyzed from the waist down, you know, and like tremors that lasts for weeks and like, like, horrifying stories, and, and my doctor said it was coincidence. And, you know, and then like, the comment sections, you know, like nutjob liar, like that hospital room, that's not a hospital room, that's a hotel room that you've decked out to look like a hospital room, you're just trying to get attention, how much money you making from this, I'm going to call CPS and take your kids away, like, like, an misogynistic slurs, you know, and like, I'm like, Okay.
I don't know for sure that this woman is telling the truth. And, and like, oh, and like these screenshots of all of the videos that get removed, you know, violating community guidelines and stuff and false information. She's like, but this is my story. Okay, I don't know for sure that she's telling the truth. But one thing I know for sure, is that if she is telling the truth, none of these named colors would know it. And so take that and write it large. If the other side is right, how would you ever know it? When you do human them to begin with, not to mention all the suppression of information and, and all the censorship and all that kind of stuff. If they're telling the truth, if there were another way to put it on a systemic level, if reports of damage are being suppressed, if alternative therapies are being suppressed, even into the medical literature, how would you know that? So this is one of the ways in which our way of seeing each other actually impedes our ability to make sense of the world. Because we're not actually communicating. It is, in fact, a billion crisis, a crisis of communication a crisis of our of our word, we're not that that's, that's the biggest crisis for humanity for the world right now. It's not climate change. It's not vaccines, it's not COVID. It's not anything but a crisis in communication. All of our problems will be easy to solve. If we could become coherent, and see each other as fully, divinely human.
This goes back to your original, the original statement that you made about the the dehumanization, that's been that's been going on, and the illusion of separation. And perhaps this is like in the apocalyptic times, the veils are being lifted on all of these things that have been invisible until now. And this chaotic mess, is what it looks like.
Yeah. You know, for me, I've always considered myself politically left in a large part, because of my, my care and concern for those who have been left out of the you know, not only my caring concern for those who have been left out, but it's also my care and concern for the winners, who basically get a booby prize of the wonderful life, they're hoping to get through their success, they get a false substitute for what they really want, which is, you know, to feel fully alive and to belong and to be at home in the world, anyway, but my concern for the marginalized, for the oppressed, for the third world, for ecosystems that are being destroyed like this is always maybe identify as a leftist. And now, that same impulse, like let's listen to those who are being shut out, let's listen to those whose interests and experiences run counter to corporate profit. And the and the power of the oligarchy. Let's listen to these people now that is, including the people who are marginalized by our reigning medical regime. And I don't feel like I've changed, you know, I, all of a sudden now people think I'm a right winger, because through a chain of associations that leads to Donald Trump. I don't know, I'm now speechless.
We call that Trump in lumpen where anything that seems to reflect that point of view gets lumped in with Donald Trump. So it can be dismissed trumping lumping. Michael.
Well, so much to go into. But one of the things Charles, I wanted to ask you is, what is the appropriate next evolution of the ways that we collectively make decisions? Because if we're so polarized, and you and how do we come into a state of reunion? And how can how can we do that? What how can we inhibit a new story of reunion and collaboration? And then how can that lead us into a form of governance that will bring in those voices that have been left out?
I do not know.
Well, that's a very appropriate answer, because one of the things you said about science, is scientific method should in should in bold in people's curiosity, and yet it's used the opposite. It used to shut down curiosity. And it's
Yeah, flip flopped. I don't know the how I can see the possibility. And I can describe the vision and the story that will generate the how that will attune us to the right next step. But I'm not the guy with the answers. He says, Oh, here's the democratic system of the future. It's direct democracy. sociocracy, it's this and that, and we use this. Here's the plan, guys, I don't have a plan. But I can give it you know, pieces, I can describe pieces that point to where we're going, and that people can recognize that make them come alive. And then what to do becomes clearer in whatever arena you're operating in, which could be very local, could be in the family. It could be political. It could be corporate, you know. So I could talk about that. But But yeah, I don't have like a
no, that's perfect. I don't want yeah, you just say yeah, here's the path. But those those markers, those that you could elaborate on?
Yeah. So so like, so this gets into what I call the story of interbeing. Using a word that I'm told, is coined by tech, not Han. It's used in Buddhism. And it means essentially, that being itself is a relational thing, that, that we're not just interdependent, practically, for example, on the rainforest, or on the algae or on the soil, but that they are part of us. And we are a part of them. Which means that, that what happens to the world in some way happens to us. It means that if we visit violence, say, on other countries, that no matter how, how tall a wall we build, or how comprehensive a surveillance system that we have, that the violence is going to come in anyway, into our experience, maybe taking the form of domestic violence, or civil violence. That's a principle of interbeing. It says that our own health is inseparable from the health of the world, from the health of other human beings, from the health of the soil from the health of the biosphere, because we're not separate, that when we understand that principle, then we start to see clearly the way out of our current set of crises. So for example, when we see health of the soil, as part of our own health, we adopt agricultural practices that rebuild soil. And it's not calculated, oh, and we're going to be better off this way. But the result is that we're better off. Maybe more micronutrients come into our diet. Maybe the practices that build soil involve having our hands in the soil, and make us feel more connected. Like have you heard of garden therapy, for example. So there are many ways or even just aesthetically like biodiversity comes back. And And do you know how a human being suffers when they are deprived of the sounds of birds and insects. So these are, these are just and then not to mention the way that healthy soil anchors, climate health, like, and forests, like a lot of the this is why I wrote a book on climate change. And one of the arguments is that a lot of what we blame on co2 induced global warming is actually caused by deforestation, and soil destruction and draining of wetlands. Because these are the organs of a living being Gaia, earth, that we are part of too. So basically, and you can apply to socially to what happens to the other is going to happen to me too, and what heals, and, and, and serves, the other is going to come back to me as well. This is the operating principle, or one of the operating principles that I describe as part of a news story. And then there's maybe two or three others that could go into but I'll pause there.
One of the things that I really like how you described it and you talked about were the total the totality of our experiences. And you touched on it earlier when you're saying if I had to totality of somebody else's experience, I might have done the same thing. And when people reflect on how we're we are connected in and all of these things experiences all these people that have come into our lives. Many of them have touched us in a way that's changed us. And that's made us who we are. And and that's where I was kind of going with this idea where actually the question about intentions. Yeah, good intentions are the road to hell is paved through good intentions, you know, that's one way to do it. But on the other hand, if we put forth the intentions of a more beautiful world, there are Hearthstone as possible that with love, compassion, beauty, these things, and we did, it helps us make decisions that will move us there. And then our interactions with other people, when we treat them with that love and compassion and understanding, helps change them. And that's how we change each other. And we can choose a path to a more beautiful world our hearts know as possible, or continue on this path that we've been on for centuries of separation. Versus as you call it, and I like the way you phrase it, the time of reunion, of coming back together. That is where, to me the solutions will be found is when the people willing to come back together. That's the path that I think that you hold that lantern for, to give us a vision of where we can and should go and want to go and if we have a strong enough desire to go to a place of beauty and love that that will help move us there.
Yeah, it's about it is about touching that. That desire. And, and, and the gratitude for having been touched with that possibility. Like, okay, maybe I am a wonderful person, if I am,
I'm sorry, I ever said that. Although I do. Think that of you.
If I am, it wasn't because of my hard efforts. Yeah, it was because of how much my grandmother loved me. It was because of all of the love that was poured into me and all of the blessings that were poured into me, that give me knowledge firsthand of what the world could be. And that and and that have healed me of the traumas that I've also received. So we are not alone here. What I call the more beautiful world, our hearts know as possible is, is a being. I understand that as being this future that reaches into the present with these tendrils that that awaken recognition of what's possible, the tendrils being things like experiences of forgiveness, or generosity, you know, kindness, healing, and you have that experience. And there's a recognition, a feeling of recognition, a feeling of a promise of home, and therefore hope, authentic hope, which is a premonition of a possibility. Those are precious treasures, that not only do we receive by grace, without earning them or deserving them, but that we can also pass on to others. Because, you know, you have these these visions. And then part of your mind is like, Am I crazy? Did I really see that? Dare I hope, dare I believe, and then someone else says, oh, yeah, I saw that too. Let me tell you what my experience was. And that's how we uplift each other. This is another aspect of interbeing that that our excuse anyway, for this airplane to pass. Yeah, another is another aspect of interbeing that our ascension into a new story is a collective effort and a collective experience. Because, I mean, I don't know about you, but in the last year and a half, I've definitely had times of pretty profound despair. And what brought me out of that, again, it was not my hard efforts. I was brought out of it. So anytime that I feel like condemning somebody for lolling in, in despair for wallowing in depression not doing anything and what's wrong with you? I'm doing something about it. Why aren't you? And in time, I remember that. And I notice myself doing that being in condemnation. I remember when I was in that state, was it condemnation that brought me out? Usually not. So this becomes a very practical question. If we want to serve a more beautiful world, it's not going to be by the kind of psychological force shaming that is currently used to manipulate people into doing things that go against their heart. It comes from another place.
If we are going to talk about the more beautiful world our hearts know as possible, and clearly, the heart has to be a key guide. And a know in in in these in these times of chaos and confusion, and despair. We do see a lot of people in despair, we felt it. What are some of the small ways forward, that that help us build the bridge from there to here or here to there, think maybe more like there to here?
Yeah. Any act of service or devotion is the way forward service to another being or devotion to beauty. So it includes like musicians, artists, anybody who does something more beautifully than it needs to be done in the Judeo Christian vocabulary that's called glorifying God. Which is not about you know, singing praises to the Father in heaven. It's through participating in the creation of that, which is good. Anytime you do that, even in the tiniest way, irrationally, you'll feel the despair lift a little bit.
Adding on to that, I asked you to comment, you made it an analogy of the shares. And I'm sure mispronounce that they're the Indian tribe, and their impact of non violence and that they were willing to die for cause. Can you go back? And do you recall that story that you gave, because it was so powerful about how to inhibit a new story through through your
Yeah, willingness that was a that was a story of the Amazonian tribe, the Shuar, I believe it's a bit of a there's no easy segue to that from what I was talking about now. But it's an example of what is possible when you care about something more than yourself. When you're devoted to something when when you bow into service to a possibility, and even your own life is less important than the manifestation of that possibility. That's the level of commitment that we are being called upon. To that we are being called to exercise today. And really like what other life is worth living, then to care about something beyond yourself, it's a paradox. To be fully alive. You have to care about something more than being then staying alive.
That's what our times are called for now, we're in this transformation. Are we going to let what I refer to as the Hunger Games society elites, take us down this path that was articulated in those books and movies? Or are we going to take humanity it take the reins of control out of their hands and put it into the hands of humanity so that we can serve a greater good to me that's the precipice that we're on. And those famed the why I like to use that analogy of The Hunger Games society elites is because they famous wonderful compassion and love for all of these tributes and those people out in the districts that were nothing more than slaves to serve their their needs. And that's where I see us at this precipice. And that's why the story of a more beautiful world hopefully will drive the the desire of people to want to make decisions that will move us towards that rather than allow us to stay on this current path that we're on. And so off on my own tangent here. But
is there anything else, Charles that's present for you right now that that belongs in this conversation that you want to add, you want to add in?
Yes, one more thing, which came to me as I looked at your smiling face, Steve. And, you know, remember, remember some of the work you've done in the past, it's humor. When all else fails, there's one gateway left to solidarity. And that's humor, where all of the dramas, all of the stories that you've taken so seriously, and that have pitted one person against another, you step back from those and you laugh at it. And you realize that these perspectives that we are wedded to, are not the truth, we can stand outside of them, we can stand outside of the rules that we've identified with, and the realities that we've identified with and we can laugh together. And in laughing together, we are together, there's something that it's a stepping outside of reality, in a way, same as a festival, like a joke is like a mini mini festival. And I just would like to say that, as you know, to expand the scope of our changemaking, beyond, like, the serious crusading stuff, like, you know, I, I earlier spoke of, including art and music in it. And I would just also like to add humor, and thank the comedians for reminding us of what is and is not real.
When I was, when I was rereading a book, that you wrote hearts, no more beautiful world of Hearthstone, it's possible. It came across me when I read it the first time, what, eight years or whatever it was published to go, I read it within a month or so after it came out. I didn't dawn on me when you quoted Swami here, and then I'm going to read from you this little passage that you wrote, We are the same beam. Look, looking at the world through different eyes. And these eyes, these vantage points are each unique. As the comedian Swami beyond Ananda puts it, quote, you are a totally unique being, just like everybody else. I won't say more about the nature of the war than that. And that's what I read that again, I said, there's there's my partner, Steve here being quoted, you know?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was a good way.
And, you know, we were in a point where, because of all the contradictions, paradox is very appropriate, you know, to be able to hold to ideas that seem to be contradictory. And if you do it in a delightful way, you make people laugh, and then their structure dissolves for a moment. Yeah. When we we have the mental structure that we that we think is reality, automatically just dissolves and we're in our hearts. And there's that unifying space, that for that moment feels the dilution of separation. So perhaps, that's one of the ways forward. I appreciate that.
Yeah.
Well, in Steve being with his humor and his wit, I hope it helps offset my word that I struggle with is to control my passion to find the language that others can hear and others can feel. And it's like, there's Steve brings in this great humor. So that's why I enjoy our relationship and our partnership here.
Yeah.
Well, thank you, Charles, for being our first guest. And thank you for being a beacon to help other people navigate. There were a lot of gems in this in this conversation that went a lot of different places. You know, and again, it's it's updating what you've written in your life's work to apply it in this in this very challenging moment. So thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you, Michael and Steve. Yeah, appreciate it and best of luck on your, on this enterprise.
Thank you, Charles. And for those watching. Thank you from front and center. We hope you come back and join us again. From the political battlefields to the cooperative playing fields, let us go there together. With that, thank you again, Charles. Thank you, everybody. Bye bye
