'Satirical strategies: exposing corruption with humour' | Global Journalism Seminar featuring Chip Tsao, journalist and satirist | Otter.ai

'Satirical strategies: exposing corruption with humour' | Global Journalism Seminar featuring Chip Tsao, journalist and satirist

Reuters Institute1h 7min

Caithlin Mercer

01:17

said we're unsure and 20% said no. Today we're joined by Hong Kong veteran chip sow, who has used his technical skills to tackle tough issues like government corruption. And corporate malfeasance for more than 30 years. His career has not been without controversy. His outspoken and often irreverent commentary has drawn criticism, and he has faced legal threats, censorship and even physical harassment for his writing. Chuck will talk to us about lessons from his career and the potential of satire as a journalistic show. That's the briefing let's begin.

Mitali Mukherjee

02:04

On this conversation Chip said we're going to be as politically correct as we can, so that sets the bar. There's another sort of note that I would like to make amongst friends and family. I am not known as the funny person. I know there have been a lot of social media posts with funny emojis. That one is not me. I'm setting the bar low so you can be very kind and laugh at any jokes I make. All the pressure is now on chip to be funny, witty, and make the point about satire, which is a great and comfortable way for me to kick off chip. Thank you for joining in. First of all, you were based in Hong Kong for the longest time who is now Oxford. Let's start with a little bit of the why around satire and why you chose to pick it and what drew you to it.

Chip Tsao

02:53

Well, I was brought I was born and brought up in Hong Kong, and I came to this country to further my studies in my with my A levels and then followed by a degree in English literature and more actor was in early 1980s. And subsequently I was fortunate enough to to be able to get a job from the BBC World Service for a an eight year long journalistic or professional or broadcasting career there. I would say an English degree helps very much for me to mold my character as I appear to be now with because English literature is such a treasure land of satires and humor and wits right and etc. Express well express in in Shakespeare's work from Shakespeare to Dr. Alexander Pope. George Orwell, you know, Oscar well, and you were Oscar Wilde and you name it. So, and I grew up, I went to the university and I I got into the BBC little service during the 1980s. That was a time when Britain was in his heyday of economic prosperity brought by what someone may remember, favorably or unfavorably said tourism. And it was a heyday of of creativity as well. And that time as far as the BBC or ITV is concerned, you had the split image right. And you had Mr. Bean. Well, Rowan Atkinson's blackadders You know, the comic comedy series. You had Benny Hill show. A bit of Austin power, the outrageous comedian. And, and I remember when that first came, I love to watch the series called Mind your language. It was stopped by a English teacher, Mary Evans, in a classroom teaching a crowd of English language students from all all over the world. There was an Indian and Pakistani, Italian, Greek, even Chinese or Japanese, you name it and reduce it in the script writer. They play with all sorts of politically incorrect. comical stunts so outrageously imperfectly, making fun of people's accent. And, and Richard all sorts of funny behavior or reaction to the teaching of English language. At that time, it was loud as everywhere and as a as a as an Asian as a student from Hong Kong. I mean, someone asked me what do what do I feel a bit? What do I feel about it? I'd say you Well, I mean, I wouldn't say it's an increase. I wouldn't say it's an realistically 100% accurate representation of the Hong Kong Chinese or, or foreigners, but it's good fun. Yes. So long as you do is good fun, so long as you don't take it seriously. So long as you're able to tell how human weaknesses and Follies sufficiently exposed in these comedies is good fun, and let's have good love and Britain as we all know, is the cradle of a sense of humor.

Mitali Mukherjee

06:39

You know, when you said people may or may not remember I thought you were referring to economic prosperity, but it seemed like you were talking about Thatcherism make clear about that one. Let me jump to the here and now we're in a recent article I read that you identified yourself as When asked who you would compare yourself as you said, well, probably Tucker Carlson or Piers Morgan and double check whether that was satire

Chip Tsao

07:06

cocktail of Tucker Carlson MPs. Morgan of making up about 60% but I rather have 40% of Andrew Ma. You know, and a bit of a Stephen Fry as well have a Cantonese version, you know, Carl's and Tucker somehow he is spilling a little bit too far. As far as his Enfield's is over enthusiastic passion for all the fake news created during the the previous American presidential election, you know, monitored by Donald Trump and his followers. They did go in a little bit too far. So I I'm glad to make a bit of revision of my cocktail composition of the cocktail composition of my soul quarter, Chip child brand of the Hong Kong Santa and Hillman.

Mitali Mukherjee

08:05

How has life changed for the chip Chow brand of humor in terms of the fact that you took a conscious decision to move out of Hong Kong? I imagine there will be political and other imperatives that make that Yes.

Chip Tsao

08:23

Yes. I spent all together 16 years in Britain. And I left this country nine in 1993 when John Major came into power, and at that time, I thought there was some exciting years lying ahead as Chris Patten took up the job of last governorship in Hong Kong. So there will be another five golden final alas five golden years of British colonialism in Hong Kong on that horizon if the curtain the final curtain was about to be to be drawn right so I was young enough to dare to go back to Hong Kong because at the time nobody knew what was lying ahead. Up to 1997 PATTON did a very brave job. However, you know, I know he was a bit of a controversial figure here at home. Still, I think he was he made himself a great politician, and also a great defender of the liberal values of liberty and, and democracy. They're both like good 25 years things were about Okay. Because right after 1997 or shortly before the handover, Deng Xiaoping died, and his protein shake from Shanghai Genzyme into power. And Jiang Wen Jiang them into power. China in Hong Kong enjoyed a good 20 years of of financial financial toppling prosperity, because John Zemin was a you know, was a fake communist. He believed in the crudest form of capitalism with nepotism, and he didn't mind the party corruption. And he did everything to make his friends and relatives rich, and he put up a great show to to mislead a few American presidents from Clinton to George Bush into admitting China into the WTO. You know, and then he created such a great Cinderella party for China and for the rest of the world for America, you know, so, at that time, we were under the impression when we were under the impression that the party would go on forever. And Jiang Zemin was born in 1926. He went to university in Shanghai in the late 1940s Before the Communists took over it was the Shanghai Jiaotong University funded by American missionaries where he studied physics engineering, and electrical engineering and he was a man of, of a limited letters he could recite the Gettysburg speech by Abraham Lincoln, and he could sing some broken pieces of Italian also a meal or that sort of things there. He made himself he put himself at the center of the stage of China's Chinese diplomacy shortly before and after the millennium year. At that time, we all thought I think the rest of the world did as well China, as a middle class was was developing with 3000 years confusion cultures, and would stand a good chance of merging into the mainstream of globalization, if not civilization. So gentleman died, and then we had this Chairman Jinping or President Xi and then the storage for storyline change a bit and the rest is history, or is current affairs now?

Mitali Mukherjee

12:24

What does it mean for the world of satire? Has it become a let me sort of add a few layers to that question? Do you feel it's become more blunt as a tool? There was a round of laughter amongst the audience when, you know, the poll showed that people think it's not as useful as it should, because it sort of draws attention towards fake news. Is that a problem? And I think, you know, the other part of this because you worked as so eloquently through what was happening across China. Is there a cultural context to it? Is it possible to do a Charlie Hebdo in in some countries and not in many others? Very

Chip Tsao

13:01

good and complicated question. I went back to Hong Kong shortly before 1997 And then I work for a newly found English newspaper called isn't Express. At the same time, I became a Hong Kong radio weekly, cultural pop show, and plus a few jobs from the TV stations there, you know, and as Hong Kong entered the 19 at the post 1997 Chinese rule, we sense the atmosphere despite despite the economic tolerance of junk German, we felt the tension in the air or in the atmosphere, getting a little bit harsh, harsher and harsher. Right. And the writing was already on the wall was always on the wall. That means the Chinese or Beijing would not tell you what you can say or what you can't. What you can do or what you can't, you know they are very clever in installing invisible blinds. You know, it's just like the kind of science fiction stunt you see in movies like Mission Impossible. You know, when Tom Cruise gets into the headquarters of of attenders headquarters, you know, trying to steal something, you know, they're invisible red lights everywhere, you know, so, you have to second guess, we all lived in, in in in a time of second guessing. Right. So some did not manage to survive to survive long because they criticize Hong Kong, the Chinese government, and Jiang Zemin and the Communist Party in the most blatant, straightforward way. And I saw my peers coming into stage and, and being told to shut up and some of them even arrested in China, and some of them recently censored into silence. So I was I think I was smart. Enough to remember my early English literature, education, the use of understatements the use of the subtle use of, of words and terminology to make you sound, apparently impartial and objective, without touching upon the vulnerable nerve of the CCP, as well as the very nationalistic and jingle is the Chinese people, which is now getting worse now. Right? So I go I drew myself some lines, but not out of self censorship, but out of the art of, of sarcasm, or the art of expression, expressing things in a wicked in a witty and humorous way, as a bit of a challenge. to myself and to see how I could survive in in oppose 1997 Beijing directly or indirectly ruled Hong Kong. And surprisingly, I was okay, I got away with many things. And some people from Beijing were willing, apparently to make friends with me. And they say, Oh, they read my columns. They wouldn't agree on everything I said, and they say, Oh, you do a little bit deliberately, or provocative funny, however, we still consider you a patriot. Not quite a compliment, you know. So I managed I just managed to survive. And as I read, I started reading many reports, reports and stories written by journalists and reporters from some third world countries, you know, and these reports kept ringing the alarm for me and I felt myself so fortunate, right because of my earlier I literally education to this country, and an English degree has molded me into a, a Cantonese first Cantonese version of, of a bit of mixture of George Orwell Oscar Wow. And again, you know, some familiar names.

Mitali Mukherjee

17:33

Back on one of the points you made a little bit where you said that you started sort of cutting and shaping the kind of commentary we're doing an audit to make sure it was always below that red. And it's not an experience unique to China. It's happening in many parts of the world. Satire wrists, stand up comic skate canceled for concert. There are more and more No, no go zones than they are goes zones. And in essence, satire is it is political. It's not it is meant to throw, you know, a very, very clear line at something that is wrong. It is meant to do that in a way that many other aspects of Art cannot do. Did you feel restricted by it? Do you think those restrictions are making it more and more difficult to actually practice the kind of satire we saw?

Chip Tsao

18:24

Well, it all depends on different cultures. And whether you're satire or or fun or or filmmaking or humor or humor, sense of humor for into sensible or understanding years. From time to time I make trouble you know, I like to share a very, not a very good piece of my surprise satirical column written in 2009 you know later with you, but satire as defined by the Cambridge Dictionary of English as a humorous way of criticizing people or ideas to show that they are wrong. Is an satire when applied to commentary. You know, is an entertaining form of social and political commentary. But satire what must come with one thing, I think, which is the magic of English humor, self mockery, you mustn't keep on making fun on other people. You got to look at the mirror by yourself. And you got to admit that you know, you are self a little bit silly, you know, in all aspects of life. So so long as you make fun of yourself first, from time to time, not a mess every time you're done, gray yourself a little bit, you know, and that is the condition for admission for you admission ticket for you to make fun of other people, so long athlete as this criticism, again based on facts, so of course there's also a sale Santa is the lowest class with you know, you don't always go for the opposite, right in in describing what you see what you see, you know, well, I mean, you don't call a black, someone black or white or white or black, you know, beautiful exchanger. adjectives like pretty an athlete so things so there are some universal rules of writing that would apply I think not only to English but to Chinese but all other foreign languages. Use short sentences go easy with your vocabulary. And when you write a commentary, try to avoid the use of adjectives as much as possible. Don't use so many adjectives. I mean, like a horrendous that academia is terrible, you know? Labeling you know all sorts of labeling. Oh, he's what a misogynist, sexist or racist as well as strong opinionated adjectives, right? So try to present your your views with facts and with as much objectivity as possible with a tight upper lip with an inscrutable stone face. You know, you make your point and make people laugh. Right. This is typical of Mr. Bean, Rowan Atkinson. And so many other great British comedians like Peter seller, Peter Ustinov, you name it, even Charlie Chaplin.

Mitali Mukherjee

21:44

In 2009, you wrote an article about the dispute. There's any lessons to draw from there any lessons to share to those who work in the area of satire.

Chip Tsao

21:58

I have been invited by the editor and American editor of the Hong Kong magazine which was weakly affiliated to the South China Morning Post later, because the stereotype is not many Chinese people are seen humorous, you know, when the rest of the world they tend to be they tend to look serious, solemn, you know, and, and, and straightforward. Right. So it was a bit of a challenge to me. So I thought, Well, why not? So at that time, you know, still now China and the Philippines have some territorial disputes over the Spratly Islands. And the Hong Kong is sandwiched between China and the Philippines in a way that so many Hong Kong housewives including myself, employers of Indonesian, Thai and Filipino domestic helpers, and that kind of political rouse between the two countries I always wondered what kind of implication what kind of implications do those Filipino domestic helpers have? There is some of them or even most of them are, were or are graduates from universities. They are not there just to do domestic and kitchen work. They have families in the Philippines. They have, they have their husband or some years, some of them even children, but they are more or less seen in a stereotype as domestic, domestic working machine in my eyes, you know, it's defective, modern slavery, not very fair. And some of the Human Rights up brutally or ruthlessly, ping that are taken off for example, if they get pregnant, you know, they get the sack and we never question A Single Woman Filipino domestic helper at the age of 28. You know, whether she's happy whether she's happy with a single life getting herself confined, in the servants room, in the tiny Serban room in our flats. working round the clock for years and years, Hong Kong employers and parents never bothered by that. Nope. So I didn't feel very comfortable. I was I was deeply sympathetic with with the plight of the domestic helpers. predicaments in Hong Kong, you know, but not many Hong Kong people of my age, or from my peers understand or wish to know and to to listen to or understand what I was trying to say because while Hong Kong was enjoying the the golden doubling years of China's GDP growth, you know, under gentlemen, so I've decided right that piece, assuming a presuming a scenario that I got myself into a kind of pulling that the situation by asking my Filipino domestic worker, whether she would accept that a part of her motherland, a part of her country, belongs to us. So it is, with hindsight, it was a silly, you know, it was the kind of crude satire with some Cantonese cultural characteristics, right in Cantonese, we do express our humor somehow in that way. And mind you Cantonese is a very cynical and he'll Marisa language, but somehow, you know, to graphically played, you know, different from English. So it was a bit of an experimental combination of Cantonese Hilmar and English satire. And when after it was published, I didn't know that there was a Filipino parliamentary election. There was going on right and wrong, I mean, open a can of worms right away. And the Filipino Domestic Workers Association in Hong Kong was very, very angry, and as well as the Consulate of the Philippines in Hong Kong. You know, at that time, the Chief Executive of Hong Kong, the governor Dondo Jiang, a personal friend of mine, he wouldn't even grab the phone and call me a chip was what the hell is going on? You know, what have you written? It was something new for the chief executive and the Hong Kong SAR government, they didn't know what to do. So I'd be there was about 6000 workers who took to the street in central holding banners, you know, calling me a racist or, or imperialist or whatever. So I went to the consulate and author my apology, and then it died down. A couple of weeks later, the Filipino government sent out Tourism Board official to Hong Kong privately and said, you know, well, we have let wrap your article with a sec to your apology. We believe that it was there was some cultural misunderstanding in Worf. Don't worry, you know, rumor has it that you'll have your You're banned from entering the Philippines. That is not true. We sincerely invite you for a fortnight long. Private tour to Manila and other parts of the Philippines to help you to understand our country. I did not. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your understanding. And for your great pardon, you know to convey my gratitude to your precedent, I would take a chance in the near future to go there by myself.

Mitali Mukherjee

28:19

Speaking of elections, I don't know if anyone's noticed what's coming up in this year, which is an election everywhere you look yes.

Chip Tsao

28:27

Because vulnerable because what you write could be exploited or made use of by other parties somewhere, you know, lurking invisibly in the world. You never know. We live in a globally well connected in a world of information, you know, so we are in a more vulnerable position then perhaps 20 years ago. Yes.

Mitali Mukherjee

28:51

The question I was going to ask was, can it be vulnerable but also powerful. We saw something like that and we are seeing something like that in the US where late night comedy has really taken on a role in itself. You know, many faces, they like Jon Stewart, etc, are probably causing more by way of change or impact or drawing attention to certain issues than journalists are. Yes. Is there power in satire, particularly in an election year or is it as you say something that can expose vulnerabilities? Can it be a tinderbox situation?

Chip Tsao

29:26

Yes, we live in, in the world of social media, Instagram, YouTube, or Tik Tok or even worse AI chat GDP because etc. Well before we are aware, one danger at one stage, and now the new danger has already arising and the world would get into a new stage. So as journalists or reporters I think we have to be quick to respond to such ever changing technological challenges. To be aware of the change of mindset of the audience or readers especially from the young generation. And we have to keep ourselves constantly informed of what's what what happens in the rest of the world, such as the reason a conflict between Israel and Gaza, right and how nationalism and hate or blind animosity was developed out of the cyber world. Especially, you know, if there is an invisible hand behind, manipulating and releasing fake news and whatever, you know, stirring up the already muddy water and making different peoples hate each other more. So there's always another war going on. And that war has begun and I don't see any chance of is going to stop have a stopping in the near future. Alright, so as far as journalism is concerned, I think we better get three levels that are very clear reporting, and analysis and commentary. As far as reporting is concerned. We stick to the old rules of presenting faithfully presenting facts and checking accurately, all the evidence and basic facts, basic truths like what when, who when, where how, you know, do the old rules in that arrangement and materials and narrative in the object in an objective way and, and avoid your own subjective comment or just stay invisible as a journalist. And the second level is analysis. Telling your reader the causes and the possible consequences of a news story, you know, from an objective angle with the knowledge of the journalism and it is from that level it things get a little bit dangerous, because you are not only reporting what happened, you are telling the readers why and how it happened. So your reporting or your worst could touch upon a few nerves of the authorities, or the dictatorships lurking somewhere, you know, you're refreshing readers memory and the Rosing readers further interest in the background, context and possible, further development of the new story or where it happened. So the third level is commentary. You know, it was just like, editorial in the guardian or the sun or mirror is the expression of the views of the journalists, his concerns and perhaps anxiety, framed in a vision of insight with a moral light telling what the journalists thinks is right and wrong. Now, when you get to the level, and if you become a so called celebrity, you're more or less on dangerous waters, because you'll become influential people will listen to you, you know, and you are so you are branded as so called an opinion leader. And now, you know, it's worse you know, that term, it makes me laugh from time to time. Kol key opinion leaders, once you're caught the key opinion leader in China, you know, it's not a very complimentary and a flattering title, because there's only one key opinion leader who resides in his Imperial Palace in Beijing, one man with his long voice and how come there is an alternative key opinion leaders somewhere in Hong Kong, whatever, whatever you know, so you're inviting troubles. So in this kind of under this sort of atmosphere, I have to take more precautions. I remember and a veteran a former friend of mine, also former boss Louis Cha, who was also a an honorary doctorate from St. Anthony's College of Oxford. He wanted me when he was alive. He was a great martial arts novelists as well as the proprietor of the only liberal newspaper in Hong Kong in power, right. He told me Look, Chip, survival is of prime importance for journalists. It doesn't serve you any good imputes if you dare speak up the truth and get yourself locked up for 15 years or even face the firing squad. You must survive, to see the end of a tiring day. So you've got to protect yourself. It's just like the weather. When it gets cold, where I feel more jumpers and jackets when it gets hot when time it turns to summer. Take off your jacket and wear T shirts. And you remain yourself all the time. You know, what you were changes, but you your heart and so and your principles and your bottom line, remain and change destiny to each other. And he later in got involved in Hong Kong politics. And he was attacked by some radical Democrats in Hong Kong of a betraying the interests of of Hong Kong and kowtow into China. Knowing him I know it isn't true, because his father was executed as a landlord in 1990. In 1950, by the by the Chinese Communist Party, and he had been bearing that grudge, resentment and he had been swallowing that pain throughout his life. So I mean, that's journalism, with all the challenges, opportunities and put fun today.

Mitali Mukherjee

36:22

I am going to pause there and it's a great segue because you're absolutely right. It's about satire in journalism, and also the public policy community. So let me turn to practicing journalists and get their thoughts in on how satire can sometimes be a very powerful weapon. But at some times, it might present the problem that you alluded to all guitar Karuk is part of the Reuters community. She's a former fellow from the Reuters Institute, and much of her work while she was with us focused on how satire was used in a very powerful fashion in the Russia Ukraine conflict or at least from Ukraine. What I'd love for you to share your observations first. Thank you.

Olga Tokariuk

37:03

Thank you for an excellent talk in so many insights Yes, my my project for the Reuters Institute focused on the use of humor by Ukraine to counter Russian disinformation, and also in strategic communications. And Ukraine's case is very particular in a way that the primary goal of Russian disinformation directed to Ukraine is to deny Ukraine's agency to somehow convince people in other countries that Ukraine is not real country that doesn't have a right to exist, that Ukrainian culture and Ukrainian language are somehow artificial constructs and therefore, need to be Ukrainians need to be re educated or Russian shouldn't be reinstated that and in this context, how Ukrainians used what they did to counter this disinformation they actually their main goal was to to stay the opposite. No, we do have agency we do have culture. We do have language. We do have our country's a sovereign country that has a right to exist, and they use humor heavily. Since the start of Russian full scale invasion, which might seem unlikely in the context of war. Why would you use humor? It might seem really absurd and logical, but it made sense because by using humor Ukrainians also showed their resilience and their resistance. So it helped. The why. Like what what the cranes use of humor did, it worked for the internal audience to foster unity and resilience when within an inside the country and also on the international arena, it helps to mobilize support for Ukraine and just to help people in other countries to discover Ukraine actually and to see it as a country and as people who do have agency who are different from Russia who are a separate nation with their own culture, language and their own willingness to define their their paths. And in the case of Ukraine, it's very interesting that the use of humor was decentralized. So both the government used it in its communication and it's very interesting also how on the level of diplomats and officials the humor was used, that in presence Lenski in many of his speeches, he used jokes. Well, obviously he's a former comedian, so nothing too surprising about that. But also remarkably, how many just ordinary users online use humor created means to demonstrate their resistance, their resilience and to just get the message across about Ukrainian calls to the wider audience. So what humor did in Ukraine's case it helped Ukraine to reach wider audience in even among people in other countries who didn't really know much about your craft didn't really care about Ukraine, but when they saw a funny meme, or they saw images of I don't know why Ukrainian and then the means that were created of Ukrainian tractor pulling the Russian tank in the very first, you know, weeks and days of the invasion and a lot of memes that it generated that helped people to relate somehow more to this country and to appreciate you know, well how these people are able under this situation of horror and Russian bombardment in the situation of an external aggression, they are still able to make jokes, they are still able to make memes they are still able to somehow withstand and survive. So it helped many people in other countries who maybe knew little about Ukraine, to discover Ukraine and to understand what Ukraine is and to discover also humor as a part of Ukrainian national character in a way and, and also in terms of disinformation, humor and satire. They really helped to expose the absurdity of Russian propaganda and disinformation because Ukrainians were somehow making this basically saying repeating what Russians were saying, but repeated it on steroids so that it would become obvious how ridiculous these claims were just how absurd they were. And in that sense, it really helped to combat this information much better than all debunking of fact, checking initiatives and of course humor is just one tool is not the only tool when it comes to this information. And as the same amount of people in your poll argue that it doesn't really help you because it might draw the attention to the information but in the case of Ukraine, instead, it is because both Russian disinformation and Ukrainian attempts to contract are about agency and that's why I think it worked in this case. Fantastic.

Mitali Mukherjee

41:26

Thank you for that Olga. satire and war was not a combination I think people had looked at and you know, you walked us through how that came to be. The other one I think people haven't looked at satire and investigation. John Allen Nemu is an outstanding investigative journalist. A lot of his work has been broadcast worldwide. Is that a combination that works John I mean, satire and corruption, Sacha satire and socio political situations all affect me understand can it be used in a powerful manner for investigative pieces? Well, for sure I

John-Allan Namu

41:59

think. And I mean, just to locate Kenya in this context, I think Kenya has a long history of the use of satire, both within the context of journalism but also just socially. In terms of investigative reporting. There's been a lot of use of satire, just just like, like Auguste mentioned, the public consuming investigative reporting and interning some of the conflict, some of the content from investigative reports into memes and what have you online. I think Kenya has a very, very strong sort of current history from on that. And I think most powerfully, aside from the demonstration of of, of agency, it's really become almost like a fourth language for for a lot of populations across the world, in terms of expressing either their discontent with the state of affairs or being able to speak to people who are in positions of power that they never be able to sit across from the way I'm sitting across from you. You know, in Kenya, there's there's an author named Ivana Warren she she authored this book called Dust and in it she says that Kenya has three official languages, English, Swahili and silence. And I'd say the fourth language is humor. And, and, and in humor, what you find, especially with this younger generation of Kenyans is bravery. That that you haven't really seen in the past, because it's now almost democratized, right? A bravery in addressing people directly, you know, they'll tag the president and you know, give him a nickname and not becomes popular. They'll tag leaders and give them nicknames or tag them on memes that's etc. And you see that transference into regular or legacy journalism via the kinds of lack the kind of language it's also used by journalists to be able to express or speak in the language of the public. So I think there's there's a lot of cross pollination there between what happens in in the field of humor with the public and what is expressed through journalism. I'd say the kind of owns like two sides of the of the same coin right? So where journalism is more harder, it's more it's more factual and, and you know, on the nose in a sense, a humor uses more indirect language and more indirect content, be able to express some of the same points that Pandora Papers was a great example of that President Uhuru Kenyatta and family members were named, you know, the hashtag on line wasn't who Kenyatta it was client 1373 which was, you know, the name that that he went by in the in the Guardian investigation and in other investigations around the Pandora Papers and not was then turned into SATA and turned into humor.

Mitali Mukherjee

45:06

Yeah. Can I ask you both briefly before I open up to questions for CHIP two? Would you say the biggest threat to satire remains governments for many cartoonists? The state of play at this point across the world is that they expect zero understanding from political community and only some support perhaps from the legal community in the courts. What a Volga the joke was on Ukrainian misgovernance would they be as much capacity to take it on the chin and say that was funny?

Olga Tokariuk

45:38

Well, definitely Ukraine is a democracy, you know, Ukraine, it does have its internal problems, but there is still freedom of speech. And the government is used to being criticized and the government has to react to the criticism in the media and satire is a form of that criticism. So actually, the main threat to journalism in Ukraine is Russian invasion.

Mitali Mukherjee

45:59

Geography in question two,

Speaker 1

46:00

I'd say that the main threat to you saying the main threat to satire, yes. So I'd say there's maybe one or two ways of looking at it. So the main threat to satire obviously is power that is expressed in a very unique and and, and ambitious and violent fashion. And that's the tradition but in context of freedom of speech and and the proliferation of the internet. I'd say another threat is political. Correctness itself, right. So because, you know, with the new sort of interactions that we're having with one another and redrawing of lines of who, who is who and identity, then people are trying to be able to establish themselves, their own identities, etc. And that becomes a sore spot. For communities who are trying to build their own, you know, their own identity, right and political correctness often demands that you kind of treat these new these new communities with with kid gloves in a sense and they are no and they they often take it they often take it very, fairly badly that they'd be a bit of a joke. Right? So I'd say it's those two things. But on the one hand, I agree that, you know, political correctness sometimes can stand in the way of having like a really honest and sometimes humorous conversation, but on the other hand, it can be taken too far. So it's, it's it's it's that I think it's it's the expression of power in a very naked way that then there's the the misuse of political correctness. And, and, yeah, I think it would be those two.

Mitali Mukherjee

47:38

Thank you both very much. I'm going to now open this up to the room. We're going old style, which is raise your hands and I will point out to you, hopefully they can get a mic to you and you can direct your question to chip. Shall we start with Omar and then we'll come to you. Is there a mic reaching Omarosa? Shall I just ask him to start? But people may not be able to hear us.

Speaker 2

48:09

Oh, thank you very much. So it's very interesting. I have one or two questions. And the first question is how is your strategy to avoid satire, fatigue, because when you repeat something like almost all the time, when it's new, everybody runs to it. Then when it's goes through the time, it becomes final, you know, people are developing kind of avoidance, how is your strategy to avoid that? And also, what do you say to people that think that using satire to tackle political issues is kind of dramatizing those political issues? And last questions, and it's live in the poorly educated country.

Mitali Mukherjee

49:01

And that's another questions. Anyone who was online and didn't hear that, let me just do a very quick run through one is around satire. Fatigue. The second question is about de dramatizing What are actually extremely serious political occurrences. And the third one is, is this ineffective for a poorly educated community in other words is satire in itself quite elite in nature, but you put your like,

Chip Tsao

49:29

Yeah, I mean, generally there are two types of set time. The first is what I would call raw and they could set time ticking the app to the App to caricature more than a decade ago, they deliberately or you know blatantly drew a caricature of Muhammad with the big towel turbine with a turbine with some explosive bomb in it, you know, and seen by the readers now these four very radical for Muslim people from the air from the Arab Arabic cultural background, would find it extremely, extremely provocative. And that I will say, that would put those respectable French artists in a very difficult situation. That is an example of law and it could sound because, and the other one is the most famous ending line of Animal Farm right? Those creature outside looked at each other, from men to pick from pig to men and for men to pick again, and it was impossible. It was, it was it became impossible to tell, which was which, now the juxtaposition of men and pic so blatantly with sound a little bit too straightforward and provocative. But these raw, this examples of raw or Nikka psychism would appeal to the mass and very forceful, very powerful, and you could use once or twice, you know, very I would say, you know daringly but depending on the change of political climate, is the employment of such examples of set, immediately incurred, very angry response from the social media or internet with an overwhelming volume, or amount of name calling or or hate, or even threat against your life, and then you will have tested the temperature and would refrain from using that again, for your own sake of safety for your own safety, not the other side to the other trendsetter is I would say, a more subtle kind or more sophisticated claim, without naming without, you know, using words like pigs and dogs or whatever, you know, for example, the Chinese people are now getting extremely nationalistic and jingoistic among themselves as for the hate against Japan. You know, there was an earthquake, there was an earthquake in Tokyo, followed by a few, you know, attacks, right in Japan, you know, and or the Chinese social media boiled up and applauding, you know, that those sufferings you know, by the Japanese people and think it was their karma, you know, so in an atmosphere like this, how would you how would you play with your satire, right. And I will use I will say something like this, you know, Chip Chow, right, as, you know, a journalist or columnist or broadcaster, whatever I've been working in journalism, in broadcasting and riding for years, but I feel no sense of achievement. My greatest achievement has always been, I am always mistaken as Japanese in Europe, or America or even in Japan. Now. So many things remain on the set. That means you are mistaken as Japanese rather than the Chinese. There are so many implications. That means you don't go noisy when you talk or speak to your friends in the public. You look elegant. You have the right dress code. You're always polite and quiet while checking into a hotel, you know, in Tokyo and Osaka, and somehow I deliberately I came back from, from Kyoto. You know, about two weeks ago when I was in Japan. It was hard being pretentious, have been, you know, really typical. I always took a an English book or somehow a French book with me walking into Japanese cafe and pull it down and read the manual. And just like something like this in luxery and I got very, you know, excessively friendly treatment from my Japanese surrounding so, so many things. Remain unsaid. But if it's random, it's provocative enough, is anti nationalistic, you know, I even whisk the prime of trees really, if enough people can read between the lines. But without underlining things without calling a spade a spade, so you employ different tactics of sanitized from time to time. Just be creative is good fun. I'm sure when George Orwell, George Orwell used to be journalists and sols writer and he also he was also a colonial police officer stationed in Burma. He has seen enough of the world he had been in touch with different cultures. Well, that's why he was such a prolific and such an interesting one of the greatest English writers of the 20th century. I'm

Mitali Mukherjee

55:26

going to try and move it along because I know there's more questions. The gentleman at the back first and then we'll come to you. Please go ahead. Yes, you

Speaker 3

55:38

Okay, thanks. My name is Duncan puits. I'm actually the chips I'm used to work for the BBC in China. So I was interested in John's point, that in Kenya, you've seen a sort of rise in the courage of people to use satire, I guess, online in particular. And we saw something very similar in China for about 1515 or more years. Until about 10 years ago, when you know, I think the current key opinion leader as Chip described him in Beijing, you know, very much is opposed to the humor of any kind and satire for sure. And so in what's happened in Hong Kong since 2020, when China introduced that very tough National Security Law. I mean, is satire dead in Hong Kong? And can people like you outside Hong Kong still keep it alive? Yes.

Mitali Mukherjee

56:36

So use that time to be shaping discussions as your opinion leader. I decide. I'm going to do that. Please. Go ahead. Yes,

Chip Tsao

56:44

it's more or less, you know, tie down. A friend of mine who's a caricature theologians, who has been working for Ming Powell for more than 30 years. He had been threatened by the police chief in Hong Kong. About his his daily power to you know, against, not against the police and against the the current Sal Hong Kong Government. Yeah. And he was threatened to be sued or taken to court by the so called a National Security Law. And he was he is a very brave man, I know him so well is a very talented caricature and cartoon this but his newspaper main power of got a little bit scared, and they asked him to, to terminate his daily cartoons. What made me angry is Gen Z. A good friend, a good friend of mine has so much so many artistic talents. He could be he could be hired or recruited as illustrators. For children's books, or for textbooks. There are many publishers in Hong Kong. They could easily offer him a job, but instead nobody would. But they sink in he was he's treated acid in touchable because of his name because of his familiar face because Hong Kong is such a small place so everyone seems to know each other. So it is censorship coupled with the kind of unnecessary fear and self censorship from the Hong Kong people and the Hong Kong and these publishing industry and media themselves. So it's, it's a boring place now. As you know, it's it's just like a general Salem, a 2000 years ago without Jesus and all the disciples. It was the omnipresent ruler of the Roman Empire by the Emperor type areas. But I'm not but I'm sure it's going to be short lived. Things would change is can't go on like this. We all live in the 21st century. Come on, you know, this is not the world is no longer at the time of the Ganga scan or, or Emperor Qin or political or curricula or whatever. So so long as you can weaponize your Hilmar and set time, creatively, and smartly. I think, more or less you can survive, and I hope so. I think well there I'm sure there's humor in all cultures. You know, I've heard some valid some really brilliant Russian jokes during the Soviet Union type games, Khrushchev and the Soviet Union Communist Party, great stops and also they're great humorous, and, and joke tellers, you know, in China, right there. punch lines. They keep coming out. Through the Chinese intellect, you know, they're brilliant works. So I hope one day you know, when the climate changes, or the naked emperor is no more, and these great works would be collected and could get into print and become some great documentation of a human history as a show to the future generations that some of us, you know, to fight that fight heart, for the sake of liberty and freedom.

Mitali Mukherjee

01:00:31

I think we can squeeze in one more question the gentleman in the brown jacket,

Speaker 4

01:00:35

not expecting something some humorous type of environment inside of the room who want to make fun while listening your legs and we want to understand the subject in a different way. Usually, we understand the subject matter. So in difficult taste, I would like to ask one one person, one person, how do you describe or eat corruption prevalence in the arm in satirical language? How do you describe

Mitali Mukherjee

01:01:13

how would you describe attacking corruption in South Africa?

Speaker 4

01:01:16

Define perhaps, prevalence in the world in satirical language, in the in the fourth language the zone has already been mentioned that this is

Chip Tsao

01:01:26

collected in the best case studies Animal Farm is all about a piece of satire is a man McIlrath piece of satire of political corruption when the two pigs one called Napoleon the others no book first. The first leaders speaking of from for the underprivileged of the animals, once they get the power become the ruling class. They abuse their power, right. So Animal Farm is a is a great piece against corruption. I mean there are different forms of corruption, Monday embezzlement, nepotism, you know installment of the President's sister or whoever you know, Kim Jong Un's, you know, showing off his 10 year old daughter of blatantly to to the whole world, you know, and telling his people that this 10 Euro girl is going to be the next queen of of North Korea and different types of corruption. Right. So, you can you may what you can do is to dramatize each case and, and knowing knowing the roles of these corrupt corrupt government officials, you know, who they are and where they have come from, and and what is the what is the case of the corruption, like, How much money does it evolve? Is the money now transferred to America or London? We've got a few luxury apartments in Hyde Park, right. So if that's the case, you get the piece of cartoon you have the luxury flat at Hyde Park, you know, with a view you know, with this man, you know, right, hugging his mistress or whatever, sipping a glass of champagne. I mean, this is typically you know, a stereotype things like, depending on different cases and tailor make and decide and construct your satirical piece.

Mitali Mukherjee

01:03:42

I'm afraid we're out of time. So we're going to hit pause here, but let me say a big thank you to chip for being so engaging and so honest about the flaws and the strengths of satire. Thank you to Olga. Thank you for John and always a pleasure hearing both of you. I hope you enjoyed watching this and listening to this. And of course, it's only the start of our global journalism seminar series that goes on through the next few months and will now be online, but it's been fantastic having you here. In person A big round of applause.

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