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Hi, my name is George Abraham and welcome to Eyeway Conversations. My guest today is Kiran Kaja, a techie who moved from Hyderabad to the UK and then to the US. Hi Kiran, welcome!
Hi George, thanks for having me.
Kiran, so you are working with Instagram. So what is your role at a place like Instagram? What is your brief as it were?
So my title is the Accessibility Program Lead for Instagram. And I lead the Accessibility Program which is basically aimed at making Instagram more useful for people with disabilities, that includes people who are blind or visually impaired, but also people who are deaf or hard of hearing, mobility impairments, or any other kind of disabilities. So I work with a team of cross functional designers, engineers, and product managers to build features into Instagram. But then I also work with the rest of the company and put in processes and bring about the culture change within the company so that we think about the needs of people with disabilities as we build these new features into Instagram. There are interesting ways in which we need to make media more accessible to blind people and people with disabilities and that's an interesting challenge. That's one reason I actually took up this role about six months ago.
Before you came into Instagram, you were in another exciting platform called Google and all of us use Google search. So what exactly were you doing at Google?
Yes, I joined Google in 2015 in the UK, and then in London when I was living in London, and I moved here to California in the Bay Area in the headquarters of Google. When I kind of joined Google in 2015-2016, they really were not looking at the accessibility of Google Search that much. So I had to start from scratch and build again a cross functional team of engineers, product managers, program managers, and designers to work on Google Search and make that more accessible. One of the things that screenreader users here may notice is changing the heading structure on the Google Search results page. That was one of the features that we worked on based on research, user research and feedback that we received from from users. I set up a team of nine folks- program managers, accessibility analysts, and then I also helped create a couple of engineering teams on Google Search and Google Assistant which is also the voice assistant that's available on Google Home devices, for example. And I also did some work on Google hardware products before I left in 2021. Yeah, so that was making sure that hundreds and hundreds of features that are on Google Search because Google Search most of us you know, I actually think we'll just search for something on Google but then also go to a third party website. But if you ask for cricket scores on Google, it actually shows you the scorecard right there on the homepage, or the Google search results page. Same goes for sports results or stock prices or any of that information that you would normally go to a different website to find. Google search is actually showing all of that these days. And we had to work with teams across the world. I used to have team members that I was managing in here in Mountain View, Bangalore and Tokyo at the time, as well as work with teams in Korea and other places. So that was an interesting mix of cultures, you know different engineering products.
You've been living overseas now in the UK and in the US for quite a few years now. So from a living independently point of view, from a home point of view, you know how has technology kind of eased your life at home, for example?
I probably rely a little bit too much on technology. It's an interesting example, I used to live in a home that I really customized. I had a door lock that is smart which means that I actually could open the door lock with my smartphone. And then there was a door doorbell camera that would recognize who's at the door. I had a microwave that can ask the Google Assistant to microwave for two minutes. I think the technology has definitely made life a lot easier, not just a smart home technology but you know, when we think about something like a white cane, to me that is a technology as well. Right so we've been using that technology successfully for over 100 years. But I think there are things that I use my smartphone to do that I wouldn't have been able to do things easily. For example, like looking up news, I'm a big news junkie. And then the first thing I do after I get up is pick up my phone and check what's happening around the world. I think living in the UK and US you tend to rely a lot more on public transport, and things like Google Maps and navigation. That's a big area where I use technology a lot, smartphone a lot. I just moved to a new apartment in Berkeley, in California. And then I'm not very familiar with all the streets around here. So I use the Google Maps app to find the post office because I needed to send something. And on the way I also use this app called BlindSquare on the iPhone which actually tells me what's around me when I'm walking around. I think even in the West in developed countries, there's a huge difference in accessibility. When I lived in London, I think that's probably for me the most accessible city there is. And you know, we met there George, once I remember, you were visiting and we met at the Victoria station. And it was very easy for me to navigate there from Reading which was actually like 50 miles or like 70-75 kilometers away even though I had to take a bus, a train and metro to get to meet you. So that way UK is a lot more convenient. When I moved to the US here in the Bay Area where all the Silicon Valley area is. It's not that the public transport system here is not that great. There is some public transport. But people rely a lot more on cars so I had to rely on rideshare like Uber. Without Uber and similar services, I don't know what we would be. I don't think I'll have the same level of independence that I have now. I think so even in the West, it depends which area you're on. I'm in Berkeley now, that's a lot more accessible part of the Bay Area. There's a lot of history about disability rights activism here in Berkeley. The Americans with Disabilities Act ADA was kind of actually born in UC Berkeley, University of California Berkeley. And so the city have accessible street crossings so if you press the button to cross the street, it will tell you which street you're crossing and also have a sound when the you know, pedestrian signal is green. When I used to live in India, I never was able to cross the road.
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You've been working with different corporates now and as a visually impaired or a blind professional when you get into the company, for example SAP labs, were they kind of prepared with an accessible ecosystem or did you have to kind of negotiate and push for some kind of support within the work environment? And what was the experience in the other companies that you worked for?
In 2006, probably that was when I joined SAP that was 2006. And they really didn't have, at least in India, SAP didn't have sort of, I think there as I said, they had an engineer who's my friend. But he moved from the US but they were open to asking me about what my requirements were and what I needed in terms of support. And what ended up happening at the time was if I needed say, things like visual support like what's going on, on my screen, it would be colleagues who would be helping. And I think at that time, when you're in a new company in a junior position, like in 2006 you end up relying on that kind of support, like from your colleagues but yet at the time, they were not really set up for that. But then they also had, so SAP is a German company and in Germany, they had blind employees and so I had to ask them about how things were done. And ironically, I was working on accessibility and then some of the internal systems are not very accessible in these companies, which is true even to this day. After what, 16 years in different companies, some of our internal systems that we have to use are not accessible. I think things have improved. So by the time I got to Google, if I needed visual support I actually had a visual support assistant. So I don't have to ask or rely on the goodwill of my colleagues. And also, like at the time I was managing people and there's confidential information that I don't want my team members to see and so on. So it's still a work in progress even in big companies, you still have to advocate for what you need which is unfortunate but I think there is a recognition that people with disabilities are an integral part of the workforce. There are you know, we need diversity amongst the employees. And given the right level of support you know, people with disabilities can be as effective or if not more effective than others. And there have been instances now where like, when I think about changing a job I actually have a conversation before the job, before I accept like these are the accommodations I need and this is the type of support I need, will you be able to provide this? And that's a factor in deciding whether I want to actually join that company or not. Again, as I said, it's still a work in progress, you kno, as I grew in my career and started taking on additional responsibilities, such as at Google, I was also doing a lot of external speaking and to create videos and also travel to all of these places I needed support. And initially, they were not set up to provide that but I worked with the HR to kind of figure out what's the support I need and you know, do a little bit of self advocacy. Hopefully, in the near future you know, we have enough information for these companies to implement policies and have a basic level of support already available for different disability types. But it's still a case where your self advocacy is required. And it's an interesting thing like you find a job, you think that you know, you shouldn't really ask your employer because it's like, oh I already have a job. And it's like, if I ask for accommodations or support, I might be treated as differently. But overall, I think it is best what I found over 16 years of working in corporate sector is being upfront and honest and reasonable with the accommodations you need, is actually best for everybody.
I just wanted to also ask you as a blind, professional working, you worked in the UK and now you're working in the US. How far can you aspire or dare to dream in terms of where you might reach in the corporate ladder?
Oh, I don't think there's a limit. UK almost had a prime minister who was blind.
Yeah. David Blunkett.
Exactly.
But in the corporate world where you know, technology and technological barriers are plenty these days. Now Satya Nadella went from India and he is now heading Microsoft Can a Kiran Kaja actually dream of heading a company?
I can definitely dream and I've seen CEOs of companies, large-ish companies who are blind. For a Kiran Kaja, I can definitely dream, whether I'll be able to do it, or do I want to is a different question. It seems like a lot of stress honestly. It's definitely doable, I think you should always aim big. As you grow, as I said you need to pick up skills and a support system around you and mentors. I think you need that passion and drive that like, I need to get to the top or wherever I need to go to. I think for me, I would be okay with, like CEO seems like a stressful job so I don't think I want to go that far. But somewhere where for me, it's like the work that I'm doing should be meaningful and should be useful for, you know for people with disabilities. Technology changed my life when I just finished high school and it just completely transformed my life. And I kind of want to make that a reality for everyone else.
So let me just ask you another thing which I just want to compare an Indian scenario with scenario in the UK or the US. A lot of young blind people growing up in India would prefer to go into the public sector, or government jobs simply because they seem to be more secure. Very few actually opt for the corporate world. What is the trend that you've noticed in the UK and the US?
For one thing, like the job security in the public sector is not the same in UK/US as it seems to be in India. So it's not the same level of like, same level of interest in the public sector employment as there is in India. What I see when I talk to young people here is and I tell them, it's pursue what is actually, like figure out what you like, pursue your interest. I see a lot of lawyers coming up again, people taking up law, the young people who actually go into like music, learn music and journalism is another area that I've seen. There's always people interested in technology, just because I guess like we grew up with this, like these days kids grow up with technology and they are much more familiar with it. HR roles are active. So I think it's a good mix, there's also public sector, of course but there's not that same level of like, public sector/bank that India seems to have. So it's a lot more mixed.
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Yeah. So, let me just move on, you know in India now there is something that blind people are very very active on. There is an internet or an email platform called Access India where there are close to 3000 to 4000, blind educated- computer technology users who actually engage. It's a platform where people discuss technology, share challenges, share news, and so on. And I believe you were responsible for the origins of this platform. What actually prompted you to think of this?
Oh yeah, that's an interesting one. It is like what now, 21 years since we had that platform. So this is when I discovered that computers can talk to me. And I started using the internet, over the 50s like a dial up modem. Does anyone remembers those days. And my friend at the time and one of my mentors, Raj Shekhar who works at EFLU in Hyderabad said there is actually a thriving community of people using computers in India and they're mostly in Delhi and Bombay. And he connected me with some of those folks. And at that time like, I also discovered on the internet that there are like, groups for blind people, blind computer users in other countries. And I basically wanted to connect with the rest of the blind computer users in India, we didn't have mobile phones or anything at the time. This is 1999-2000. And Raj Shekhar and I decided why don't we actually start a group for ourselves, for blind computer users in India? And so we went on freelists.org That was one of the first thing and started this group up and I had absolutely no clue. I didn't even think that it would grow to be such a huge thing. It's phenomenal that like even after 21 years, it's still active, I still can't believe it.
Yeah and a lot of people actually see it as a good platform to actually disseminate information. I do it all the time. And you know, people respond and there are lots of people who are active, of course you find that the people who are active keeps changing from time to time. But people are active and the group is quite vibrant. So that's great and that's a wonderful contribution that you've made to India and the blind people in India because it's a great platform to find solutions. Kiran, I was reading and in fact, I've read articles that you've written about your activities which are extra curricular in nature. You've done skydiving, you've played cricket. So tell us about your interests and how do you find the time, and what are the kinds of facilities that you've seen in India, in the UK and the US to pursue these passions.
So the skydiving one was I did not tell my family. I just sent them the pictures and they were not happy about that. So the skydiving was an interesting experience. Other blind people said they did it so I was like, I should probably try this too. So you know, I think you go through phases in life where you want to try everything so that was one of those phases. I tried scuba diving but I kind of found it a bit pointless because like all I could hear was my own breathing. And like, yeah you go inside water and like dive into the ocean but other than that. I have always been interested in cricket and growing up, I would watch cricket on TV because at the time I didn't really know that like radio commentary was much better. So when I moved to the UK and this is one of the interesting things about the UK is like local blindness organizations want blind people to be very active physically. So they organize, you know cricket teams or they actually organize tamdem cycling rides, they give you swimming lessons, and they organize like hikes and walking trips. And the Berkshire County Blind Society in the UK, in Reading where I was living actually had a cricket team in the development league. And I used to play. I played for three or four seasons quite actively. And I really miss having come up move to the US, I really miss playing cricket. I think that's one thing that I still miss from not being in the UK and India. I think now I actually have an another interesting hobby, I've always been interested in trains and traveling around the world. I was like traveling by train because of the blind discount we used to get in India, people would actually take me on the trip with them because 75% discount for me 75% discount for an escort that makes the other person gets the ticket for half the price. So I traveled a lot on trains in India. And then when I was in Japan, my friend and I actually walked into a trains, a model train shop, it's not toy trains, it's model trains that look smaller scale trains that actually look like real trains and I got hooked. So I'm actually building a rail model train layout, of a scene from the UK where the trail track actually goes on right next to the ocean. So I am learning things about woodworking and form and sculpting and stuff like that. So I think you need some kind of fashion/interest to kind of give some like from your regular routine. And those things keep changing. I tried playing the keyboard but you know, that is on temporary hold. So I keep changing my hobbies now and then but I think the train, the model railroad building, model train building is going to be a lifelong hobby at some point. And I'm trying to make it as tactile as possible, all the buildings and all of that. I also after the pandemic because we're mostly at home, I haven't been very active. I'm going to take up tandem cycling because here in the Bay Area, the cycling culture is very very popular. So I should be able to find volunteers to go with me on tandem bike rides.
So Kiran, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you very much for giving the time.
Thank you very much for having me. I really enjoy the work that you and Eyeway does and I also enjoy the conversations that you have with folks. And so thanks for the opportunity.
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