Hey y'all. It's Tim, the co host of the trailer park podcast. On this show, we bring you podcast trailers, so that you can discover your next favorite show. Or if you're a creator, we want to help you get your show into the ears of your ideal listener. We are still in between seasons, and Errol and I have been working hard on bringing you some bonus content. This time around, we are sharing something a little different. A deep dive interview with Grant Hill, the creator of serum, one of the trailers we featured in season one. Serum is a narrative podcast, and narrative pods are typically scripted and meticulously put together and take a long time to produce but I've always found them mysterious and a little out of reach for the DIY podcaster. Grant and I discuss the misconceptions and lessons learned of creating narrative podcasts and some tips on how to start this journey into narrative. Before we go any further, let's make sure we're all on the same page. If you missed it during season one of TPP be featured the trailer for serum. Take a second to go listen to that if you haven't already. If you have awesome, here's a refresher for everyone. Reporter Grant Hill stumbles into a cab after a long night out. A Conversation with the driver leads to a startling revelation. The driver claims to be a Hollywood insider who helped the doctor develop a potential cure for AIDS in the 90s. His Hollywood claims turned out to be true. But what about this cure for AIDS? A search turns up a black physician named Gary Davis from Tulsa, Oklahoma who had a big dream to use goat antibodies to develop a serum that would free the world from HIV and AIDS. What happened to the dream? And why did so many fear for the doctor's life? I was absolutely gripped by the trailer. So without further ado, here's my interview with Grant Hill.
Grant Hill, welcome to the trailer park podcast.
Thanks so much for having me on. I appreciate it. So
I was introduced to serum because we selected your trailer as one of the ones we featured on trailer park. And it's just a testament to what trailers can do to pique someone's interest. I personally am invested in learning about narrative podcasts. It's one of my favorite genres of podcasts. But I think there might be some misconceptions about what they are and what it takes to create them. So from your perspective, what do you think is a common misconception about narrative podcasts?
In my experience, we were able to do CRM with less resources than one might expect.
And I think
what I really like about narrative podcasts is probably one of its biggest misconceptions with which, which is that like, it takes a lot of
money to Purdue.
I mean, I mean, it does, and it should, I mean, you could do a lot more with more money, you know what I mean, but I think we were able to make secure with, I used the same recorder, the same microphone, like everywhere I went, because that's all I had at that time. So it definitely would have been easier with more resources. But I think being really resourceful and using what you have is a is infinitely more valuable than like the best Mike. I will say if I had more resources would have been able to travel more like a lot of that stuff I had to do on my own at first before this became like a bigger production.
So it certainly can cost a lot, you know, depending on the equipment, depending on the travel. And then just the the hours like the work hours it takes to put together. But with making serum it sounds like what you're saying is it didn't cost as much as you would think
I got into podcasting I think because video to me seemed so there seems so many barriers to entry when it came to video. And with podcasts, it's just it's fundamentally at the start, at least it's you with a microphone. From there. Yeah, I mean, bringing in really talented people to help you edit it, you know, to help you mix it really nicely to put it all together. That does take money and that takes resources. But what I mean is the barrier to entry to do this initially, is relatively low. Obviously you need the time Time, and you need to have, you know, some equipment and some kind of access to those bare minimums. But I think anyone who has found a really good story, and has the kind of the the time to dig into it could essentially make one of these things, which is what I love about the medium. And what I love about narrative podcasts is that it's such a good launching off point to tell stories that maybe, you know, would be a great movie or something, but you just wouldn't even know how to approach that is, especially if you're not like within that industry. And I think that's just, that's just really is what captures my imagination about podcasts. It's because it's like anything is possible, because all I need really is my microphone, my computer and like a plane ticket. Now that that's where that's where the money comes, right? Yeah.
Now, were you trained specifically in narrative podcasts? Or did because, like, I've never taken a podcasting class in my life. I just did it. You know. So what about you like, how did you get into this podcasting in general?
Sure. So in undergrad, I studied journalism, I majored in journalism, but I at the time, they didn't have a podcasting class. But what happened was actually my, the chief of police for my hometown, my small hometown, in New Jersey, he became the first American police officer in over a decade to be charged with a hate crime. And so that was right before my last year of undergrad. And I was really, it was it was out of nowhere. For me, I think others in the community weren't surprised at all. But for me, it was like, Wow, this, this is so random. And I started digging into the story a little bit what like local news coverage. And you know, at the same time, this was when papers as they still are, you know, they were paring back on, on, on local news coverage on they were laying off reporters. So I just wanted to know more about this. And as I as I started to learn more about it, I was like, this might be a good podcast, and I had never made one before. But I did have experience with music, working with dolls and everything like that. So I thought it was something that I could at least have the technical ability to start. I didn't know about finish at that point. And I still don't know about a lot of help. So that was kind of my first foray. So I ended up spending, like eight months or so with a terrible recorder with a microphone in my dorm room. And creating this five part pop, investigative podcast just all about the case. I was truly like, whatever less than a cub reporter was, like, you know, just with a microphone and a dream, trying to tell this story, but, and like going back now I cringe at how it sounds now. But, you know, it was I was really proud of it. At the time, it felt like the first time I did something within journalism that I was like, really, really proud of. And then from there, you know, I started to work I did a couple internships in podcasting, because I just loved I love the I love the form, I love the medium. And then when this story came up, I was like, oh my god, well, here it is, I gotta you know, really use this one. for all it's worth. It's so
fun. The first idea or even deception of serum. And I would assume that would be when you met your friend in the cab, or Uber, whatever it was, from that point to when it was finally launched in September of 2022. Like how long that process
was. So we were still kind of really in the thick of as I'm sure anybody who's made need this kind of stuff before, like you're in the thick of it until it's over. We were very much working on the last episode, until the day before the last episode launched, if I remember correctly, so that process was a little over three years. From the moment I got in the cabin till when the last episode we see at
least. Wow. When you were publishing the episodes, and I think there was like seven. Right? There were nine now. So you publish them every week? Yes, yep. So this is something I've always wondered about series, because let's say you have episode one, you know, it's ready, you're, you're gonna launch it. Do you have all of the other episodes already done? And then you tweak it as you go along? As like the weeks are? There's probably not a like a rule to that. But how did that work out for you?
I worked really closely with with Mike and Scott who's the host of the pollster. Why, why and she really shepherded me through this whole process. So what she was doing an entire other show, while she while we were putting this together, which how she did that I have no idea. I do not understand it, I still don't understand it. But so we were both kind of doing this wasn't like our full time thing. We were kind of it was mine, but I had no idea what I was doing. So it was much more of a burden for her. But she while she was working on that show, we were actively still writing and producing to get these episodes together. I mean, it was crazy. It was absurd. We had the first half of the season. We knew we had that basically recorded and pre produced and then we would tweak it as we got closer. So the first four to five episodes, we had pretty much in the Can we just needed to make some tweaks. And then once the first episode was produced, I think we were working on. Or once that the first episode was released, we were still working on six through nine. And then so that just became this strange process of tweaking before the the week before the release, while also working on scripts and fact checking and, and working what seemed what we're going to need to produce the next, or the last three episodes. So we were under the gun almost every week, it felt like a sprint, at the same time a marathon. So it was very bizarre. I don't think this is normally how it goes. But this is it was in that trough in serum could have been produced no other way. Because it was like me, it literally me with my microphone, doing two jobs at once. And it was held together with like glue had duct tape. And then at the end, it just came out. And you know, we were proud of it. But we were like I don't know how we were able to do this. It was a miracle that we were glued to it.
Yeah, so it sounds like you have this plan. Where you're sketching out episodes, you're writing this script. You're tweaking and producing. And then as you go along, you're like, Oh, well, we really need to do something about, you know, what's going to happen in episode eight or episode nine. And then it's you and your producers kind of just working together to make it all happen. Is that right?
Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the most interesting things that that, you know, are issues that we had to deal with was opening loops in the first episode, where we're like, oh, we'll close that in later episodes. And it's, now you have this, you're writing out the structure for you know, in Episode Seven or eight, and you're like, where do I close that? Like, I gotta close the loop? How do I close it? Where do I close it? And so that was that kind of problem solving, I think was was one of the most challenging things for us. But miraculously, I think we were able to find ways in each to close each loop. And hopefully, if hopefully, it felt like that.
Yeah. Two questions. Do you think you could have done this by yourself?
Absolutely not. No? Yeah. I mean, no, no way. I think the reporting, the reporting was mostly me, but I submitted the we sat down for an edit. It was me making it to other producers or reporters for the pulse for the first episode. And, man, my intro was just it was, I thought about it way too much, you know, that it's the, it's the intro to the whole series you like have all this time to over intellectualize everything, and I got in there. And they were just like, what, what the hell is this? And I was like, No, this is how it needs to be. And, and I just dank my lucky stars that everybody was in that room to say, you've got to, you've got to change your outlook on this. And you've got to change. You know, how you're writing this what you're thinking about, because it just it just wasn't working without making and without, without the help from our engineer Charlie, and the two reporters that helped that at this, this would never have taken shame.
It's such a pleasure to speak with you because I consume a lot of narrative podcasts. And I've always wanted to be able to talk with someone who produced one and asked these questions. So this is not only helpful for me, but for our listeners. So let's talk about tools. And specifically equipment, you said that you were using pretty much the same kind of recorder throughout the whole series. So what are you using?
I mean it a zoom, h6. And I don't know what
this mic is if you had the shotgun mic on the h6
Well, at times I did I bought that shotgun for my trip to Tulsa because like I'm going to need something that's going to be able to withstand the wind I actually don't think I actually didn't have the shotgun mic for tools I had. Whatever the stereo, you know, mic that comes with it. So at times I would do that. And then at times I would use this audio technica. And I don't even know what condenser mic Okay, yeah. And then I prefer the Audio Technica. And I just hold it using my hand because that's all I don't have a fancy microphone holder. And, and it seems to do the job. I mean, sometimes you would hear like, my, like, rustling of my hand moving or whatever, but, and I and at times, like, it was very windy, which I loved when I heard it back. But But yeah, I mean, I'm not like a gearhead type of guy. So I probably could have got so much better sound that I consulted someone before all this, but for me, I'm just, Hey, I got this equipment, I'm gonna make the most of it. And I think it worked out and I feel this way with, I have a pet peeve with, with tape sinks, like when people use tape sinks for in audio in narrative podcasts when the host is on, like a call with a source or whatever. It should sound like a phone call? In my mind. Yeah. Because it just breaks. It breaks the wall of yours, but you're not really there within it. For me, that takes me out of the thing. If something doesn't sound as as good as it? Could I tend to be a little more forgiving of that. Because I don't know, I think it shows you a little bit about the show and who's making it and what, what resources they have. And brings you more to that story. So maybe that's just how I justified the bad sound to myself. So I don't know,
I think there's an argument to be made either way, you know, but I like I like that. Just
Thanks. I appreciate. I turn and go on with.
All right. So what about we, at the beginning, or, you know, we talked about a misconception that narrative podcasts cost a lot of money, but it does cost money. So what were your major funding sources? Yes. So
originally, for the first year and a half, I didn't have any. So I was just paying for this out of my pocket. It was the pandemic, so I didn't really I had a lot of time on my hands. Obviously, at first, I didn't have anything. And then when I when I went to Tulsa, that's when Mike and reached out and was like, Hey, we could we could probably get a grant or something like this. So I was able to secure a grant from why why that was a modest, very modest. Grant, I think, which I don't have a problem with an unproven person with the Krazy, eight secure story. So you know, I understand. But, but that helped a lot that helped for travel. And I've mostly spend it on travel. Yeah. So I mean, I haven't made any money from this. And I think what's more remarkable is the fact that Mike in and, and Charlie at hy, why Charlie's or engineer, they both did the second job during the time when they were doing their normal job. And then so when I say it doesn't cost a lot of money. I mean, personally, I was able to do this with that small that modest grant that just paid for travel, but I didn't pay myself. And they weren't being paid. You know, as far as I know, more than what their you know, everyday salary is. So that costs money. And it should cost money to pay people for doing this type of work. I don't mean to say like people shouldn't get paid, I just mean to say, you can still create a product with a small travel budget that I think that can carry a story through nine episodes,
and you gotta have people believe in what you're doing. But yeah, if you just counted up all the hours that you put in, and anyone that that helped you and paid their, quote, unquote, wage, it would cost a lot
as it should. It's It's hard work. But I just think this was a story that just kind of captured our imagination. And it's something that we felt like we had to work on. You know, whether at least I felt I had to work on whether I was getting paid or not. So maybe that was a terrible career move. And from now on, no one will pay me but
I don't know. So what are the things that you would have done differently or maybe some just general lessons learned? Well, although
it helps to be under the gun a little bit with timing to get stuff done, and to force the creative juices to flow rather than wait for them to come. You know, come flowing. I I do wish we had less time under the gun. I wish that there was a little less of a time crunch at the end to you know, while we were tweaking episodes for that, or that week, also writing episodes for in, that would come out in the next two weeks, which we would have to produce, while we tweaked the episodes before that. So it just became very chaotic in that way, it would have been nice to, to
schedule that out
a little bit better. But I think that it was like a do or die type thing where we we had to set a date to get it out, or else we would have never gotten it, we would have just kept tweaking and kept tweaking. So yeah, it's a little bit of a double, double sided thing there.
Well, you know, another thing is, so at the end of the series, I'm not going to be able to describe this the way that I want to, but at the end of the series, it was like, you know, you're kind of like, oh, my gosh, I have more ideas about what is happening here, what is happening with the Doctor, what is happening, potential cover up, and, and you start like, you get your recorder out. And you are just unloading into your recorder, all of these different ideas. And that's how you end the series. And I was just like, oh, my gosh. But I guess that was the point, right? It's like, you could just keep on going keep on going forever. With the different theories and the different rabbit holes that you go down. Yeah, and
it was important for us to feel like there was, there were elements of closure throughout the series, like we did find out more about, you know, the doctors, most famous patient, we got a more fuller story, we did find out who might still have versions of this treatment out there and who might still be providing it to people and more about those people. So it was very important for me to not like completely do the typical narrative podcast thing of, you know, there's no answer gets the lesson along the way type of thing, which is, I get it because it's it's so many for so many stories, there's not going to be closure, there's not going to be this feeling of an end. But I don't know, I guess that that you can do that with anything. And the point of that ended to me was like, it's the really compelling thing about rumors and and conspiracy theories, or, like folklore, or whatever. It's like, you can go on and on and on and drive yourself mad. And I think a lot of people, especially with this case, who were involved with it, who believed in it, or who didn't believe that it who wanted to prove it wrong. It's just, it's just one of those stories where you can you can just go insane, just thinking about the possibilities? And I certainly did. I got lowered into this loop. And it made me understand more, the people who wouldn't talk to me, because, you know, they, at some point, they just decided to let it go. And, you know, that's probably the wise thing to do with a lot of things.
But I don't know, when the series is published, did you get any sort of negative feedback from anyone like you shouldn't be telling this story or anything like that?
A lot less than, than I thought we would, I was really prepared for that type of reaction, which I understand the hesitation I mean, it is the AIDS crisis is an obviously extremely serious thing. And people lived through it and are still kind of traumatized by by what they went through during that time. And to kind of tell that story. With that in mind, I knew it was gonna be a little bit of a high wire act, to not go too far to completely alienate folks who, you know, are offended by by the idea that there are things that we weren't told about the crisis or that, you know, the potential for someone to take this story and extrapolate from it and potentially do something detrimental to their own health, because they believe in something that isn't proven. I totally get that. But I think we went in to tell the story when we went in with that in mind. And while while we did get a few, you know, tweets about, you know, that this is ridiculous, why would you tell the story? And I understand that opinion. But I think the story is more than just about the alleged cure or the treatment. It's about how people react crisis. It's about how it's about this complicated dynamic of, you know, a black physician who, at least, it appears wasn't treated fairly by white establishment medical establishment figures. And it's about it's about this trust in the government and that kind of medical establishment, which I think we all can understand, unfortunately, now going through the pandemic and everything. So I take that criticism very, very seriously. And I don't want to make light of it. But ultimately, I think it was an important story. And I think we trusted that an audience would get what we were doing. Rather than sow doubt, we were trying to, I think shed light on this corner of the world and this corner of this perspective, rather. And I think many of the people that we talked to, for this story got that, and I think, and I hopefully that comes through in the podcast, but, you know, actually, the feedback has been relatively positive. So I'm really grateful for that.
As someone who is not a conspiracy theorist at all, listening to you, CRM, I was definitely more open to know maybe there is something to this, you know, and I shared, I shared that I was listening to this series with a friend of mine, who definitely is on the other side of that spectrum. And he's, what do you mean, Anthony Fauci and the NIH are, you know, up to no good and they're corrupt? Like, of course they are.
Yeah. Which is, which is funny, because before I did this, like, I felt like I was almost going into I will started the project, almost like trying to debunk what I was told him the cat. Oh, what if I could debunk it? Which is such? I mean, that there's a lot of problems with that Sure. perspective, for sure. And I think I learned a lot and my perspective changed throughout the reporting process, which maybe comes through in the podcast, but I think going through that journey from being on the one side of that, no, like, conspiracy theories are all, you know, Bs, like it's all a coping mechanism or something like that. Or it's all wild to like, what what does that journey like to then teeter on the edge of the other side and see that other side and maybe, if you're on the other side, pull yourself in a little bit towards not everything is a conspiracy theory is sometimes you know, there are other issues that are going on that aren't like the most wild kind of explanation. So I really wanted to try to bring both of those sides a little bit closer to one another to create some sort of understanding. I don't know if it works, but that's just definitely what I was experiencing. As I was reporting on the project.
Let's pivot to the trailer. We are, this is the trailer park podcast. So how important was it to have a compelling trailer for the series?
Not always everything. Because we were just kind of coming out of nowhere, we had no history as a podcast. I mean, it was nice to lean on, whi wise kind of credibility, and they're, they're amazing journalism. And as well as the polls, they've been doing this for, I think, 10 years now. So which, and now I'm now a reporter at the polls. So I guess I should say we, but I just joined. So I don't, I'm still gonna say that. But we could lean on that credibility. But it was very important for us to come up really from the get go. Try to promise a lot in this series. I mean, that's why I listened to the episode features here. I'm obviously and yeah, one of you guys said, Yeah, we're not going to tell you the length of the trailer because we can dissuade you, right? Which I totally get. And, and it was a long trailer. But I really wanted to try to hit on each element. So that each child by that I mean, each corner of the story like the FBI, the CIA, the, you know, Anthony Fauci the, the different kinds of things that make up my skepticism at the beginning, we really wanted to try to promise all those dynamic little, little, I guess, appetizers, so that you're here with the sound collage of questions that you needed to go to the series just to understand what the series was about, you know what I mean? I felt like we wanted to go so broad with it, where you were like, I don't get what this Why don't get what this is, but in a in a positive way. Which I guess is maybe not the ideal form of a trailer where you're supposed to explain what it is so that it entices people. We kind of wanted to invert it, I guess and just be like, just leave leave the listener with more questions than answers. So it was important, I don't know if it was successful, but But I certainly we certainly thought about it a lot. Even as we were writing the scripts, we were like, We got to put this in the trailer. We got to put that element in the trailer and making notes of what what sound bites might work because we knew that a lot was riding on it for listenership because we just didn't have any prior history.
So a question came to mind about Just metrics in general, you know how well the series as far as I think I should I, I don't know if I looked this up on charitable or not, but our downloads how we're like that stuff, if you don't want to talk about that, that's fine. But I just thought I'd ask, I don't have a
problem talking about it. I don't know if the station has a problem with it. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna be more conservative churches search for the answers that I give, just because I don't know what the,
you know, protocol is there.
But I will say, you know, as far as I'm aware, I think we are the station's most successful limited run series, which is, which I'm really proud of. And we have, we have gotten more downloads than I think a lot of people expected us to, especially because we didn't put any, as far as I'm aware, any money in advertising the thing? So because of that, I'm really proud of of the amount of downloads that we got. Do, I think we could have had more, you can always have more. Right, exactly. But I think, as far as I'm aware, it's been successful, relatively successful. So you know, we created cereal, or whatever, but it's been relatively successful.
Fantastic. I want to ask you two more questions. So one about any tips for podcasters? Who want to break into narrative podcast space? And then the next question is about music. I totally forgot to add music in here. Because you created some of the music. You wrote some of the music, right? Yeah, yeah. So
a few songs, I worked with a buddy of mine, Brandon's homie, he's a really talented musician. And then, as any person who makes podcasts, you always need more music than you think you're gonna need. So when we were kind of, in the middle of producing a lot of this stuff, we just realized we need a lot more music and a variety of it. So I basically just use logic and, and my, my keyboard to come up with stuff on the fly as we were, as we were making it, which I actually really enjoyed that part of the process, I think, to be able to, like, make music specifically for a scene, or specifically for a vibe like that you can tweak in real time, was so fun, it was one of the most enjoyable parts of making the podcast was being able to kind of, you know, craft that that vibe in real time. So that, yeah, I love that
as a musician, I appreciated the music, and the themes that went along throughout the whole series. I thought it was brilliant. And especially that the music in the trailer really grabs. And you know, it is it is the central theme throughout all the episodes. But well done. Well done.
Thanks so much. I appreciate that. I was really hoping that people would like the music because I spent way too much time thinking about it to everyone else on the projects. You know, I guess, detriment. So I'm sorry to them. But yeah, I appreciate I appreciate the kind words,
yeah, no problem. All right. So any tips for podcasters? Who, you know, want to break into narrative and maybe just feel like, oh, no, they can't. Any words of wisdom, I
think it just comes down to the story. I got really lucky with this story, which, which is that? From the get go, I had no idea what the story was about. And I still don't know what the fundamental kind of I don't know the fundamental answer to the answer to the questions presented in the story, which you would say, Oh, well, that, you know, maybe that's, maybe that's a flaw. Maybe it is at the beginning of many podcasts. The hosts will say, this is a story about and then they give you like, three themes of what the story is going to be about. And I just think, don't you want the listener to, like in a movie, you wouldn't hear somebody directly to the camera, say to the camera, you know, this movie is about love and hardship or whatever it's, you know, part of the fun of going of listening to a story is figuring out what it's about yourself and what it means to you. And so, I think for anybody who wants to break into narrative podcast, it's really fundamentally about the store, you can have the best equipment in the world, but if you know what the story is about five minutes after you start, become really interested in it. I don't know if it could have carry the amount of episodes that you're going to want to produce. And so I think that's just what I've learned is like, because I've had other ideas before first stories and then after doing this, I realized man, I'm so glad I didn't make that because it would have just, it's just not enough. You know, there's just not enough there to not enough mystery if you You're just going to need a big story to carry all the episodes, I think. And the other tip is just, I don't know, don't be scared to do it, like dipping your toe into into like water, the end you've never swam before. Like, you get in and you get a little more comfortable. And then you get in a little bit and like, each time you talk to somebody new about this, whatever the thing you're doing, the podcast is about, you start to really think to yourself, oh, I'm actually really doing this. I'm actually making this podcast, I guess. And then you talk to the number amount, you talk to them out like 10 people and you're like, Well, I guess I have to make it now. Because 10 People know that, like, I've talked to 10 people, they now expect me to make something out of this. So kind of lock yourself in, you know? Right, right. And then and then you have no choice but to make it and that's yeah, you know, mostly a good thing. I don't know if that's a helpful tip or not. But
no, that's great. That's great. Grant Hill, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate you and your work on CRM.
Thanks so much Tim and a big fan of the trailer park podcast. So thank you so much for having me on.
Thanks for spending some time at the park. I hope that this episode demystified the concept of narrative, deeply investigative podcast for you just a bit. We'd love to know your takeaways. Ariel and I will be back in your feed before you know it. Love this episode or TPP in general, and want to get in touch. Email us at Hello at trailer park pod.com Are you a creator? Submit your trailer by going to Trailer Park podcast.crd.co. Ariel and I are going through trailers right now for season two, and we may just pick yours. Find us on Instagram and tag us in your favorite trailers. We're at trailer park underscore pod. Happy Trails