Greetings. Cultivators worldwide. Jordan River here back with more grow cast right on time and very aromatic. Today we've got a brand new guest on the line. We have none other than Dr Riley Kirk from the bioactive podcast, and from Canada, chem. This is an incredible guest. I was just on the bioactive podcast, had a lovely time on there, and now we're speaking to Dr Riley Kirk on our show grow cast, to talk all about flavor compounds and terpenes and aromatics. It's a very good episode. I know you're gonna love it before we get into that, though. Shout out to AC infinity. That's right. AC infinity.com, code, grow cast, one five saves you 15% plus you can use grow cast 10 that's grow, cast one zero on Amazon for 10% off. AC Infinity has a whole bunch of stuff back in stock. You can go check it out now. They've got everything you need, complete. Grow Tent kits. If you want to upgrade, throw in another flower tent. Throw in another veg tent. It's all they're waiting for you. Tents, fans, lights, pots, scissors, trimming accessories, trimming bowls. There's so much stuff. It's all at AC infinity.com, ENCODE, growcast, one, five, saves you 15% plus free shipping on orders $99 or more. Go and check it out. It keeps the lights on around here. It helps you and your garden. AC infinity makes the best gear in the game, and plus, you accumulate AC infinity points. Don't sleep on these infinity points, guys, you can get free stuff sent right to your door. Just make sure you have an account at AC infinity.com, use code grow, cast one five for maximum savings and your infinity points rack up, earn free prizes. It's really cool. Go and check it out. Now that's grow. Cast one five at AC infinity.com, and growcast, one zero on Amazon, you can go and get those savings again. It helps us. It helps them. Most importantly, helps you and your garden. Thank you to AC infinity. All right, everyone, let's get into it with Dr Riley Kirk, thank you for listening and enjoy the show. Hello, podcast listeners, you are now listening to grow cast. I'm your host, Jordan River, and I want to thank you for tuning into the show again today. Before we get started, as always, I urge you to share this show. Turn a grow around to grow cast, or turn a smoke around to growing that's how you can help us on our mission of overgrow. Make sure you subscribe grow cast.com. Is the new website. There you'll find everything, all the episodes, membership, seeds classes, it's all waiting for you. Huge special. Thank you to the members for making all this possible. Oh, so excited for today's episode. We are back on growcast podcast here with a brand new guest, very, very excited. Like I said, Our guest today is a cannabis research scientist with a pH degree in pharmaceutical science, host of the bioactive podcast, available on all platforms as well as bioactive podcast.com and the creator of the network of applied pharmacognacy. Please welcome for the first time, everybody. Dr Riley Kirk, how's it going? Riley,
it's going so well. Thanks so much for having me on your show. I'm stoked to be here.
Absolutely. Listen, we've been following your work for a long time. I've been following your page, my community. A lot of the Grow cast members, there's a lot of crossover there. A lot of our people. Listen to your people. You've been doing some amazing work. So I want to thank you for taking the time to come on the show, and also thank you for being such a positive force in the cannabis
community. Oh, absolutely. I think we need as many people actually advocating for the plant as possible. Because Nothing drives me more insane than you go to like a cannabis conference, and almost every talk is all this fear mongering talk about, you know, all about microbials and pesticides and like that is stuff we need to be concerned about. But Is anybody for the plant anymore? Like, why are we not showing some more research that shows how amazing this plant is? So I'm happy to be here
really well. Said, you know, you go to a cannabis event now, and it's one of two things. You're either at an expo where it's like, no smoking, and it's in, like you said, it's like, the dangers of the industry, or it's like, everybody's slanging it, it's a trap event, and it's like, can we get something in the middle with a little bit of education, a little bit of education, a little bit of patient advocacy? I couldn't agree more, and you're out there doing the work, really you are. Dr Riley, I'm really impressed with all the stuff you're doing. As far as the research studies, the podcast is absolutely amazing. Can we start with a little background, though, for first time, listeners talk to me about your story, what sparked your passion for cannabis, pardon the pun, and what brought you into your current mission with the podcast and all to your research studies?
Oh, absolutely. So what started my passion with the plant, like most people, was using the plant. I started smoking weed when I was about 14 years old, and we had just talked about this, but I have had seizures in the past, I have a very hyper active brain. It's very like ADHD, like again, I've had seizures. It's just, you know, it never felt like really at ease, until I used cannabis and I felt this just like blanket over me, where I was like, whoa. I can focus on things. My brain feels great. And from that day, I really haven't stopped. Using cannabis, but I never really thought it would be a career for me. I thought it was going to be a scientist who loved weed and smoked weed on the side and did other science. When I went, I went to get my PhD in pharmaceutical sciences, which sounds like I just study like antidepressants, but my PhD is actually in a subject called natural product chemistry, or pharmacognacy, and this whole subject is learning how we can use natural medicine, so bacteria, fungi, plants, and the metabolites they make, and how we can discover new drugs or new uses of these plants for medicine. So that's what I studied during my PhD. And I absolutely fell in love with it. Loved it. I studied hundreds of different medicinal plants, traditional ones, contemporary ones. It was an amazing experience. But, you know, my brain still loved weed. I was still smoking weed every day, and I kind of just became known as this stoner within this PhD program, which, you know, you might be like, Oh, how'd that go? But it actually worked out well, because I was really known for loving this plant and for studying medicinal plants. And when the university first released a cannabis studies program, they were looking for somebody to help teach the course, a teaching assistant, and I didn't even need to apply for this. Everyone's like, oh, Riley,
there's only one choice. But for
real, because I was like, I was educated, just on my own time. I did so much research. I was always on top of publications coming out, and I was always telling other people about it. I'd bring it up in journal club and be like, Hey, you guys want to talk about this this week, because, like, new research just came out. So yeah, when this position came up, they essentially just put it in my lap and said, Hey, like you're the only one really qualified to talk about this. So part of that teaching position was creating videos for education and kind of supplementing the PowerPoints or the other stuff that was available for these courses. And the students really responded well to those videos, because I was bringing in this personality of a stoner, but also talking about cannabis science. So there's kind of like two different ends of it, whereas the professors would kind of be a little more sterile and not really have that, like lived experience aspect of it so true, yeah, oh, yeah. And it's so important, because most things relevant to cannabis are not in the literature. They're just not, they're just within our community, within spoken word, within, you know, these events that we're talking about, but they're not necessarily in the publications. And then eventually, you know, I was, I was helping teach this course, and I'm like, dang, they're charging $7,000 for this course. And like, I feel like every stoner should have access to this education. And then this, this new app came out called Tiktok, and I was like, You know what? Why not? So I hit the button, and I just started talking and started recording videos, and the community just loved it like nobody had ever explained cannabis science at a high level to them. And I think a lot of people think that stoners are stupid, and we're not. We're extremely creative, we're extremely smart, and we're just itching for this education. So when I started making those videos, you know, they did really, really well, because nobody had seen this type of education before, honestly, that's through my Tiktok channel. Is how I got my first job in the cannabis industry. And I've been creating videos ever since, just trying to make really approachable videos that are either talking about new research, talking about stoner science, talking about some of the research studies that we're doing, and eventually, as you mentioned, I did. CO found a nonprofit called the network of applied pharmacognosy. You can just call it nap nap. And essentially, what we do is we study the biochemistry of cannabis. We study cannabinoids and terpenes and these other compounds. We also study the endocannabinoid system and how the body reacts to cannabis. And we also study the community and how consumers and stoners, how the education that we hold within this community is so valuable, and we're trying to finally give voices to who we think are the experts in cannabis, which are the actual consumers of cannabis
really well. Said, I have talked about this on the show before, but I just want to highlight how important the work is that you do, and also that people at home do, these citizen scientists, all you growers listening right now, how important this work is. It's been a while since I've said this little riff, so I'd love to share it with you. Dr Riley, which is, I think there's a million things, a million items on the action list when it comes to the state of cannabis in our society today. There's literally 1000 things that I could list that we need to look into, from product safety to access patient access to all these things. If you were to rank them in importance, I think at the very top you've got the biggest injustices. There are people in jail right now over a plant. Yeah. Those people need out of jail. It's probably the number one, most important thing. Problem is Riley, I'm not a lawyer, so I can't really help those I can't serve with my skill set that most important cause, right? So what's next on the list? Probably keeping people like that out of jail, changing laws, right? Making it so that this plant doesn't take away your freedom just for growing a god dang medicinal plant. That's probably number two problem is, I'm not a politician. But number three, I think there's probably some ties here. Here are some here are some items. Growing your own is one of the most important things that you could do to de stigmatize, to spread the word, to increase patient access. Your work is some of the most important work you could do to study the plant, realize it's and document its medicinal effects, in order to, again, de stigmatize, push forward those laws, right in that more important cause, I think that it's so incredible what you're doing with your studies, and I want to again, to thank you and ask you more about like, what is your mission statement with these because, Like I said, I said, I know it pushes everything forward, but what are you approaching this from when you go out there to study the science of the effect of cannabis? Yeah,
I mean, part of it's exactly what you're talking about, and that's using our science as advocacy. Because we are also not lawyers and we're also not legislators, but we also realize that lawyers and legislators require peer reviewed science to make decisions, not
they're not farmers or scientists. That's such a good point.
Yeah, so for us, one of our big parts of our mission is getting the knowledge that we know is true, that we know is true within the community, into peer reviewed science, and that's through, you know, surveys, through this biochemical data, through a combination of both of those, and being able to, you know, use that science as advocacy, to give people something to cite, to give people something to talk about. Because right now, you know, word of mouth is really important and people's stories are really important, but people want something to reference to, and that's what we're trying to provide. But I guess the bigger picture is we are trying to connect three big players in cannabis science and advocacy, and that's the academic institutions who I mentioned. Don't always have that lived experience, but they have a lot of trust in like the government, right? The government looks at academia for for guidance on what to do for a lot of situations. Then there's the cannabis industry, the experts, the people who are actually like, formulating products and making decisions on dosing and all of that stuff. And then there's the consumer, again, stoners, experts, people who are actually consuming these products, people who can actually report on this product. Made me feel this way. I have this type of brain. This is my demographic, and I responded X, Y, Z to this product. So we're trying to connect all three of these major players, and we're trying to act as kind of the gray area, the middle man who kind of everybody trusts us, but we're trying to utilize the strengths of all of these different players to produce the most practical data that has ever existed in cannabis, because there's huge issues with each of those three things that we're talking about. Everybody has limitations, and we're trying to kind of create something that's never been done before, that is much needed in this space. I really
love that, and I feel like the more research there is to work with, I know it gets complicated, right? I was just telling you, I did a show called the coffee Health and Science Podcast, and a lot of that show was looking at the most studied food product on planet Earth, which is coffee. And guess what? You go and you ask doctors, hey, is coffee good for you or bad for you? Well, there's a huge debate, right? Even though there's a mountain of evidence, there's still a fair amount of debate. So I don't think it's going to make the debate go away, but the more you got to work with, the more clear the picture becomes, and that's what I want to bring us into today's topic. Because, you know, we live in a THC world. Riley, I don't know if you've heard this,
but we live
in a THC world, and we discovered that there's this compound that's in type a cannabis let's call it, and it's called THC and that's what gives you a lot of the engine to your psychoactive thrust into this cannabis experience. But as we're learning more and more, really the flavorant compounds, the aromatic compounds, the flavors and tastes and smell and mouth feel of cannabis is like a huge part of the cannabis experience. Aroma and getting high are intrinsically linked with cannabis, and as growers, we like to nerd out on things like terpenes, right? But I know it gets much more complex about that. How should we as growers be thinking about this flavor, aroma experience, instead of just relegating an entire like profile to just what are the Terps? You know what I mean? Oh,
yeah, and I love that you talk. Out, you know, THC, it is important, right? A lot of the medicinal benefits of cannabis come from THC. But anybody out there who's ever dabbed THC isolate, or THC diamonds, or just thga Diamonds, I should say, or just straight up THC, it's a fully different feeling. It's very hollow. It's very different. Whereas, if you're using the plant product, it's very expansive, it's very creative, it's very energizing, it's very you know, it's a completely different experience. So we know that these other compounds matter, but we still do take a reductionist approach when talking about them, but that's just because that's how our knowledge builds over time, right? Like we learned about cannabinoids, we knew THC was important. Then we said, oh, well, CBD is really important too. And then we said, oh, wait, there's all of these other ones that also play a role. So there's like an entourage effect in just cannabinoids, which we don't really talk about that much. But then there's also the expanded entourage effect when we have terpenes and these other flavors. So terpenes are in pretty much every plant. We are kind of well aware of that. We know that, like lavender, has little same thing with cannabis, and are these familiar smells. Those are kind of like the base of the aroma. They're still going to be the vast majority of the aromatic compounds are going to be the terpenes. You can think of that like by weight, by molecule. Terpenes are the main drivers of aroma, but any grower or any stoner enthusiast who smelled a bunch of flour before, sometimes you smell flour and you're like, Whoa that smells like coconut sunscreen, or like whoa, that one smells like like skunk or even like poop, right? People call these poopings. I think it's the funniest thing in the world. Yeah. So there's always these, like nuance of smells and aroma and flavor that you can't put onto a single terpene, or even a group of terpenes. It just it doesn't fit that terpene profile. And this is where these flavors come into play. So this is not my research. This was first published by abstracts tech. They're out of California, and essentially they're saying, Okay, there's all of these other smelly compounds. They're not terpenes, so let's call them something else. They're called flavors. They're many different types of molecules. Some of them are like indole some are fatty acids, some are esters, just a variety of different chemical scaffolds. But they're not terpenes, because terpenes, technically speaking, are built from isoprene units. We don't need to get into the chemistry there.
So yeah, something like hydrogen and carbon and they're all the same kind of destroy. These are totally molecular, molecularly different, but still playing into the overall aroma experience exactly.
So they're kind of like the other, the other smelly things that are not terpenes. So this is where you get that really exotic aroma that we're talking about, the ones that aren't necessarily just earthy or just citrusy, like the really, really in depth flavors come from these flavors and growers, cultivators have known about these forever. We just didn't have any words to describe them, right? So now I think it's going to get really interesting, because now cultivators are learning more about these, we're starting to develop the laboratory tools to actually look for them, to be able to detect them in the laboratory, and that's starting to link up with this cultivator nose that's been trained over decades and decades to pick these up, even though we didn't know that they were flavoring so that they're these unique chemical scaffolds. You know, the nose is way more sensitive than the machinery we have in a laboratory right now, so it's kind of an interesting paradigm that we're seeing with these two kind of sciences coming together that's really
fascinating. And I like how you said the terpenes are the major thing. Still, like, it seems like you already were willing to secede that, but I know what you mean, which is, when you have really, really well grown some really, really good genetics, and then really, well grown, homegrown flower. You get these layers of flavor. That's kind of like, it's kind of like, when you look at the EQ meter, the equalizer, when music is playing, and you watch those bars go up and down, it's almost like all the bars are there. You've got this low end, you've got this middle and you've got this high end treble, right? The low end are like the funkier, like pooping kind of ones that you were saying, and super funky and earthy. And then you get to, like, herbaceous, kind of gassy mid stuff. And then the really high end treble is, like, your bright, sweet floral,
like, make your nose tickle. Like, those really, really, yeah, just like,
you know, tickle your ears with the right frequency, right? And when flowers really good, in my opinion, it's when you keep going back because you can't pinpoint it, because the smell is so complex and so full spectrum and full full EQ, that like you keep going back and smelling it over and over again. And that's the type of flower that I think really knocks people's socks off. And maybe it has to attribute to a lot of these flavoring compounds. Oh,
yeah. And it's that uniqueness from people's. Male flower and be like, Whoa. I've never smelled something like this before, or even like when fino hunting. You know, people have been looking for this unique flavor for a long time, but again, didn't really have the words to play into and I also want to talk about, you know, we've been talking about how terpenes are kind of these, like they're the majority, but these flavors are the minority. But that doesn't necessarily mean, like, smell wise, that's the case. It's more just like weight you said, yeah, exactly because some of these flavoring compounds, it could be in like one part per billion, but your nose is so sensitive to that tiny, tiny, tiny bit, like the poop smell, like we've been trained as humans to pick up a poop smell, even in really, really, really small quantities. And here I'm talking about the compound scatol, and it's literally found in feces and as well, produced.
Shout out to, I think they're called paraphernalia social club.com they'll send you a terpene kit, and you got to pay for the like expanded one. And then they put it in the because they have the terpenes, and those are all labeled in blue. And then there's the ones that are labeled in red, and they put it as number two, which I know was a joke that's hilarious. You flip it on the bottom and it says, Yeah, scat How do you pronounce a scattle? Scatol? Yeah. And I mean, it smells like shit. It smells like dog shit. When you open it like it's bad, it is the nastiest smelling one in the kit. It's so funny that you bring that up. And there's other
nasty ones too. I mean, even like indole some of some of these other compounds smell like like mothballs. And again, when you smell them in a Terp kit, or if you're doing research on them, you're smelling them in pretty concentrated amounts, and they're alone. They're not with all of these other aromatic compounds. So even if scatol is present in flower, it's not like that. Nug smells like a giant pile of steaming dog poop. You know, there are other aromatic compounds that are adding to the nuance there to still give it kind of a plant floral smell, but you can still detect that little bit of poopy in there.
I think that people also associate it with the oncoming effect. I know people do this with poopings, but you mentioned mothballs? Yeah, I've had a couple of phenos come out of my garden that have that, like moldy, mildewy closet mothball smell, and it's not my favorite, most appealing smell in the world, but when I smoke those strains, those cultivars, tend to knock me on my ass and have me like dazed and relaxed heavily, which is what I'm going for. So yeah, I think it's about like the flavors you like, but then also the experiences you associate with them. You know what I mean?
Oh, yeah. And I have a theory too about some like vape carts there. So some of these flavors are also very chemy, very chemical smelling, where it almost smells like a solvent. And one of my theories is, like, some people are trying these in a vape or a DAB or somewhere where it's a little bit more concentrated, and they might think that there's like residual solvent, or that it's, you know, almost tastes like a laboratory in a way, but I think it's that Chem note, not necessarily like actual chemicals in the product. I think so.
I think so Riley and I'm worried for the next generation, because some, some people have only experienced cannabis in the form of a dab pen with added cotton candy terpenes. That's been some people's only cannabis experience. And I'm not the type of person to be like, Oh, what's wrong with the world? No, we gotta take personal responsibility. I think Brandon Russ said it well on Instagram the other day. He's like, that's up to the old heads. You gotta teach these people what's going on. And I think that's true. So it makes me sad that some people have only had that experience. You
know well, and of course, it's like a sad experience for flavor, like, we don't want weed to taste like cotton candy bubble gum, or maybe some people do. I don't, nobody I know.
I think some young people do, and they just need to learn different,
yeah, but also just the amount of added terpenes that we're adding into these vape pens and this sauce and this all the stuff that we're adding egregious amounts. I think, personally, this is where we're starting to see some of the adverse effects come up, not necessarily just because, you know, quote, weed is stronger. I think it's because we're turning weed away from weed. And you know, when we're thinking about terpenes, when we're talking about flavors, cannabinoids, all this stuff, something I preach about a lot is the natural ratio, which is, what is that plant producing? And at what ratio? Because the plant only has so much energy to put towards THC or to put towards terpenes, so it's never going to produce an amount that's just so egregious that it's not going to mesh well with our body. But in the laboratory, we're adding 13, up to 30% terpenes. And that, you know, terpenes are also pesticides in nature. Terpenes are also, you know, yes, they have medicinal benefits. But to assert. And threshold, and when we keep increasing and increasing, because, yeah, terpenes are popular, but, like, we're not researching the safety of adding that much Terps into a product. You know, that's where I think the industry needs to chill a little bit, because a lot of people just want the weed experience. And unfortunately, maybe people are shopping for the wrong thing and causing the market to go a certain way, but I think if we stick towards the natural ratio, whether that is smoking flour or rosin or something like that, I think that's how we can get a healthier high and a more sustainable experience with the plant.
I could not agree more that's so well said, and I think that the industry is splitting in two different directions, which is, one is the natural ratio route, like you said, home growing and specifically solventless extract. After all this fancy deep dives into BHO and propane and CO two and all this fun stuff, what ended up being the number one choice for the headiest of heady, most connoisseur of connoisseur, heat and pressure. Yeah, heat and pressure. And so I think that, I think that that's one end, and the other end is, like you said, added botanical terpenes spray packs and and rainbow packs with coloring all over the different buds. And it's insane. So
I just don't understand. I what? Why are we infusing every paper? I mean, a research paper just came out that showed that some of the Rolling Papers used that were like rainbow colored or blue colored or purple, or any of these, like dyed colors, had extremely elevated levels of heavy metals of like copper, you know, present in the actual paper, because, again, it's more about marketing and less about a wellness product and health and safety. And you know, every key player needs to do their due diligence with the product that they're responsible for. Paper companies need to be doing the research and understanding what's going into their paper, all the all the pressures put on the cultivators. But like, everybody's playing a role here, and we need to understand that that's
so true. There's so many, like, left turns and deep dives. I want to take Riley maybe sometime, if you could come on the member show, I'd love to talk to you about, is weed stronger? Because I have a really strong opinion on that. I mean, yes, obviously, but like, I don't agree with this statement that, just like, weed is super powered now. So maybe we can set another date and, like, go down that road.
Cool. I love your free tangents. Yeah, always
the fourth annual grow cast, cultivators cup 2025 is going down. That's right, April 12. That's Saturday. April 12, from 4pm to 9pm at Emerald acres in Virgil, Illinois. This is the greatest competition in the history of growcast? No, really, this is gonna be one of the best events we ever put on. Emerald acres is a beautiful hemp farm and wedding venue. We went all out renting this place for the day, and it's gonna be absolutely incredible. We've got Tennessee Terp farmer coming and giving out free dabs. We've got Nick from rootedly flying all the way out to do a presentation Team growcast is presenting. We've got open consumption, smoke, table food trucks on site with food for purchase, craft vendors. Rise of rich is going to be there. We're all going to be hanging out, smoking, sharing, flower trading, cuts. It's going to be an absolute blast. Plus, we have raffles, giveaways, prizes, games. It's all waiting there. April 12. It's Saturday. April 12 at Emerald acres in virtual Illinois. Go to grow cast.com/events, right now, grab your tickets. You don't want to miss this one. They're going to sell out quick, so grab them. We're just a couple weeks away. Grow cast.com/events and of course, members getting $21 off. Make sure you join membership. Guys. Grow cast.com/membership, there's so much good stuff there, so don't miss this. It's the cultivators cup. You do not have to enter to come down. You get a goodie bag that's worth more than the price of admission. And if you want to enter the competition and achieve grower glory, we have three different categories you can enter some or none of them. That's flower concentrate and edible. Find out more at growcast.com/events, I'll see you there. Don't miss it. It's going to be a blast. Grow cast.com/events. You events. I do want to ask you this, because you talk about these other flavor and compounds, two huge questions about these. First of all, can we talk about some of like what what they are specifically and what those different molecular compositions you said were, but also where they reside? Because you were telling me off air, and this fascinated me tremendously, going back to the flour and rosin thing, you said that some of these flavor compounds exist in the leaf tissue. Do I have that? Right? Some
in the leaf, but also many in the trichomes too, like cannabinoids and terpenes.
So what are some of these compounds? Can you highlight a few and talk to us about them? Yeah, I think some
of the ones that we can relate to. So, you know, obviously we've talked about like scatol and indole, but many of them are these can of sulfur compounds. So many of them contain sulfur which add to that depth of smell and flavor, but also differentiate them from terpenes. Some of these that we talk about are very citrusy. I mentioned like, almost like a sunscreen aroma. Those. Come from can of sulfurs. But also the skunk aroma that everybody knows is attributed to cannabis. That is a flavor, and that's not a terpene. There's no terpene that smells like skunk. There is these can of sulfurs that contribute to that. And then I think another one that we can really relate to is the really sweet, sweet, sweet, fruity, almost candy flavor that you get from some strains that, again, is not terpenes. That's going to be your esters, the group of compounds esters they they are partially responsible for that sweet smell of fruits when you peel open a fruit and you smell that just sweetness in your mouth and on your nose. That's from these Ester compounds. And a lot of these esters are also present in grapes and melons and fruits or in citrus, and they're also present in cannabis, and that's what's giving it that really sweet, sweet fruity aroma. I think that's
why it's so important to study other agricultural sectors, because if esters are part of what make grapes taste sweet and delicious. Certainly, some of the farming practices that grape growers have developed could apply to cannabis. Oh so
true. That's such a good point, especially for like, you know, really pushing towards, like, one of these esters, or making it even sweeter. And then I will mention one more, and that's the cheesy aroma. Like, I love cheesy weed. Some people hate cheesy weed, but that cheesy, cheesy, rich aroma is coming from these long fatty acids, octanoic acid, decanoic acid. There's actually a whole suite of these fatty acids that contribute to that cheesy smell. And these compounds are also present in Parmesan cheese and in goat cheese, and they're also responsible for that cheesy aroma of those actual cheeses as well. And as you're talking about, we wouldn't know this unless there was a bunch of cheese research done right, which there was, and we were able to compare and say, Oh, interesting. These super cheesy strains of cannabis have overlapping compounds with actual cheese.
Okay, so I love the cheese strains, first of all, again, related to their effects. Do you love, let me ask you this, do you love real cheese?
Oh my gosh, I'm obsessed with real cheese.
And you also love cheese strains for the taste. Oh
yeah, but I'm the same as you like, I I'm not somebody who, like, buys, you know, an ounce of something and only smokes one thing, like, for a long time, or grows just one thing. And I'm like, Okay, this is all I'm gonna smoke for like, the next couple of months. I like to use mine as, like, tools in my toolbox. So again, back to migraines and seizures and stuff like that. When I'm going towards a migraine, I'm going to really gravitate towards either cheesy strains or really, like GMO, like kind of really rich, like, those types of strains. But that's not typically what I would like for, like, starting my day, that's going to be more of my, like, citrusy, terpene, rich varieties, is what my you know, classic sativas is what I would go towards just on like a normal morning. But if my brain feels weird, I know I need to go towards the GMO. Settle
down, those neurons firing. I know exactly what you mean, and the advice that I tend to give people. And I should have said this when I appeared on your show, my goodness, forgot to say this is follow your nose, because I feel like everybody's so different. I know you probably understand better than anybody when it comes to somebody saying, hey, what strain is good for this? I want to manage pain. I want to sleep better. Like, how do you approach that situation? Have you cracked a lot of that code? Or is it more of like a follow your nose type thing? You
know, it's something where you're trying to collect a lot of data on right now, I have not cracked it. I'd say I've cracked my code pretty well, right? But, you know, I haven't cracked the code in general, but for me, like I absolutely have to smell weed before I smoke it. And I don't know if you know Tina Gordon over at moon, made farms I have not sounds like a future guest maybe, oh, she's absolutely amazing. And I remember we were at the Emerald Cup one time, and she would blindfold you, and she'd have all these strains, and she'd be like, okay, like Riley, which one do you want to smoke? And she'll blindfold you and have you smell a bunch of them. You know, you can't look at the nugs. You can't, you know, look at any other things. And she's just going by straight smell. And it's so interesting that everybody was choosing something different. You know, it's not like everyone was like, Oh yeah, that one's the most fire. It was like, I'm choosing a very like uplifting turpinoline variety, where someone else is choosing one that's more like, almost cherry, like, a lot richer in smell. So there are a lot of, again, I think growers that gravitate towards the nose, nose. And I think consumers are starting to but you kind of need to grow, because if you don't, like most dispensaries don't let you just stick your nose into everything. I think they should, but it's not the case, and it's not the reality for most people that you can, you can just smell a bunch of things. Until you choose one that vibes they
just don't care about the patient. Is the thing Riley, they're only selecting eight week strains. Boom. That cuts out a huge portion of the gene pool and possibly some really unique profiles that could be super beneficial for people. And then let's say you do find a good strain for what your ailment is, and a good grower who grows it well at the dispensary, good luck holding them, holding on to that for 10 years, and the business staying in business for 10 years, and the dispensary not switching out the strain. You know what I mean? You don't have access to it forever. You gotta get a cut, and you gotta grow it yourself.
Gotta grow it 100% but I don't need to tell you that you're a grower. You grow every year, right? I do, yeah, and we talked about this on my podcast, but one of my favorite things is like smelling throughout the Grow season, but also, you know, your plant smell is completely different in the morning versus at night, like it's just learning from the plant of when it's starting to produce these terpenes, when it's kind of off gassing these terpenes, how that might relate to like, what the plants doing within that ecosystem, and who that plants trying to talk to the insects, you know, all the microbes. I think that's one of my favorite parts of growing. Is like, I love the smell for the smoking experience, but I just love learning from this plant, and I learn something new every single grow season. You're a
sun grown grower, aren't you?
Plants? I'm way too spiritual at those things.
It's funny, you say that I've gotten so much more spiritual in my garden over the years. And I think a lot of people are, you know, whether or not they know it or whether they define it that way personally. But yeah, that's that's interesting. And, yeah, we got to send you some seeds or something. I'd love that. Where were we? This is a great conversation. When I feel like scroll back and see which questions we were on, that means that we're really ripping and rolling. I love it. Riley, well, talk to me about this. I want to talk about ancillary cannabinoids. You brought this up a little bit. I think that cannabinoid ratios could be obviously better documented. I think a lot of these things we don't even really understand right and then more focused on when it comes to the breeding side. Talk to me about CBD ratios, or varons, THC, V and stuff like that, and what your thoughts are on them. Oh
yeah, I do think, well, there's actually somebody out there that's trying to profile indica, sativa and the spectrum based on cannabinoid ratios alone, not even looking at terpenes. I don't agree with that, but somebody's trying to do that. Still interesting? Yeah, I do think it's really interesting, because they are presenting some really interesting data along with it, but I do think ratios matter a lot, and not to keep bashing on dispensaries, but again, like you here, you walk into a dispensary, and you're looking at a menu that's rotating on a screen, and the only information you have is your THC percentage and the price. How on earth are we supposed to get people to not care about that if that's the only information we're giving people kidding? You know, it drives me nuts, but yes, so I think the ratios are the big thing here. And personally, like I love growing strains that have both THC and CBD present. I think it makes a more resilient plant, and I think it makes us more resilient as well with having that balance. But there's also all of these other cannabinoids that we don't talk about a lot. I think CBG, it's not even a minor compound. It's quite major in a lot of varieties. And again, if you like those uplifting varieties, CBG is a great compound to target. You can also harvest a little bit early and get more CBG, same as harvesting a little bit later and getting more CBN cannabinol. That's a degradation product of THC. So part of this is, yes, what the plant's producing, and part of it is just kind of understanding the flow that the plant goes through and these biochemical pathways it's going to go CBG to THC to CBN, so understanding harvest times and how that plays into the ratio of cannabinoids that you're going to get in that final product. But then, of course, there's these, these true minor compounds, right? I think the variants are part of that. So thc v, cbdv, there's a variety of them, and there is just some fascinating research coming out about these compounds. We'll focus on thc v, because I think the most research has been done there, but I think it's really well known as an appetite suppressant, so people who really struggle with either an eating disorder or just getting the munchies really hard after you're consuming targeting thc v varieties may be beneficial for that. There's also really interesting data that it may help with anxiety. And if you think of strains like your durbins, they're typically pretty high in thc v, and although they're uplifting, they often don't give people anxiety. And that might be kind of at play. There is this, this ratio going on there with THC and THCV. But. It's acting in different ways on the brain. But then there's also kind of other ancillary research, with thcb potentially being helpful for people with Lyme disease and combating Lyme disease. So there's also these additional medicinal benefits that we're just starting to research with these cannabinoids, which I think are going to add to this personalized medicine, targeted medicine, and saying, Okay, you have this condition, you should really look for something that at least contains these compounds, because it might help you.
I want to dig into this. Can I ask you some advanced questions on some of the subjects you just said, Sure, anything I know I'm so the idea of this pathway, right? I've heard about this when it comes to the development of the cannabinoids within the Trichome head while you're growing the plant. For growers who haven't heard this before, this is, like, my lay person's understanding is that CBG is like a precursor to THC. Is that fair to say
it's actually the precursor to all Yeah, it's known as, like the mother of all cannabinoids, because essentially what the plant does is it's producing a lot of CBG, cannabigerol, and I don't need to, like, hold up a molecule here, but it's a long molecule, like, kind of a long, stringy molecule, whereas THC is more blocky and condensed. Same thing with, like, CBD. So essentially it produces a lot of the CBG, and then it's essentially introduced to different enzymes. So this would be something like THC A synthase, meaning it's synthesizing THCA from CBGa, or CBDa synthase, meaning that enzyme is producing CBDa from cpga. So essentially, these enzymes are, they're kind of catalyzing this reaction from CBGa to all of these other cannabinoids, depending on the genetics of that plant. But it's always going to be the starting material before it actually produces all these other things. That
cleared up my understanding. My question then, is, why don't, or do, some people harvest their plant at week five? And just if I was, let's say I was growing for CBG extract, in just a hypothetical scenario, wouldn't I just bring my plants to four or five weeks and then harvest them?
You definitely could. But there's also CBG dominant varieties that you can just grow like any normal plant, and it just lacks these other enzymes that converts it to other things. So my advice would be to not to listen to the genetics a little bit here. And you know, if you're after THC, THC, a, grow those plants if you're after CBG, CBGa, grow plants that are dominant in that so that they're not going to convert to other compounds anyway, and you don't need to, because you're going to get a lower yield anyway, compared to if you had the right genetics for just producing more of it. I
guess it only applies to like if you were doing CBG isolate, because, like you said, you lose the rest of the entourage effect. You don't give your plant time to mature, you don't get the yield. You don't get the THC to develop. But I've always thought like, if somebody, because I've seen like CBG for medicinal purposes, and why doesn't someone just, you know, harvest right in the middle of bulk, but on the flip side of that? Okay, so CBG precursor to all cannabinoids. Let's talk about the ones that go to THC and then to CBN. This this sleepy cannabinoid, right? I'm told it's the sleepy cannabinoid. Is this an oxidation process? It's partially oxidation.
It's really due to oxidation or photo degradation, so light, oxygen, excessive heat, any of these can cause this conversion. And essentially, it's just kind of gaining more aromaticity. So it's, you're getting another aromatic ring out of that compound as it degrades. Interesting.
Do all strains do this? Yeah, because I've seen a lot of home growers, you know, take strains really, really far, and they do seem to get sleepier. But I'm wondering on a test, would they just all test higher for CBN because they took their nine weaker to 11 and a
half. Yeah, and maybe that is different, like the actual thickness of that trichome head, the thickness of the cuticle plays a role in this, because it's playing a role in how much sun is actually being exposed to that THC, which is causing that degradation. Same thing with like, your flavonoid content in your flower. Flavonoids, which are really well known as the purple color and purple nugs, are also like sunscreens for that plant. So the more that you have there, the more that that sun rays can be absorbed into other compounds and not necessarily degrade just straight THC into CBN. So there's a lot of factors at play, which is, it makes total sense to me why different strains would show different ratios of THC to CBN, but in general, like it is going to the main breakdown product of THC as it's, you know, as it's sitting in the sun, or as even if you're drying and curing and doing that. In the sun. Some people like to do that, not me personally, but, um, that would also cause additional CBN, yeah,
I've been, I was in Jamaica, and that's just how they do it. That's how they do it. Yeah, that's the way they want it. Wow. So the photo degradation part is interesting to me too, because when you think about an indoor grower, which the majority of my listeners are, you take a look at those lower buds, like, we never do a good enough job lower pruning our plants. We're never as vicious as we should be. And then there's always, you know, a bud that's a little hidden under fan leaf, and they mature differently and they smoke differently. Still comes out good, but the stuff at the top that was really saturated with light, you're right, the colors come out. It's usually like, more dense, like super rock, hard, dense, covered in trichomes. Well,
light is the big, big producer of THC. The more light, the more THC that's produced, like in general. And this day, this research was done, like in the mountains of I forget, I forget where it was done, but it was really interesting data just showing like the more light that's exposed to that nug, the more THC that's being produced. And I just mentioned that, you know, flavonoids play a role as a sunscreen for the plant. Same thing with cannabinoids, specifically acidic cannabinoids, thta, CBDa, in that version, they're also acting as a sun protectant for that plant. So if you have way more sun rays or light rays, if you're going in a tent, you know, if you have way more of those reaching a nug, then that nug is being incentivized to produce more and more of these Sun protecting compounds.
I didn't know they were acidic. You need the the low pH for the sunscreen, I guess.
Well, it's really, actually, again, not to, like, nerd out with chemistry here. But please,
please, this is what you hear for Riley. You're killing it in the
acidic version, you have an additional carboxylic acid group, but you also have more double bonds, so you have more conjugation in that molecule. And what works as a sunscreen is a network of double bonds, so you have a larger network of double bonds when you have these esthetic compounds versus the decarboxylated compounds,
almost like a shield. Am I trying to break it down into layperson? Yeah, no. Kind
of like a shield, and kind of, kind of like a mirror that almost like reflects, like protects the plant, and kind of just reflects things back up instead of being absorbed within it. Ah, yes,
that's why they shine so nicely. That's fantastic. So sparkly, yeah? And then they catch my eye, and the Botany of Desire has been triggered. And next thing you know, you send in seeds to Amsterdam and back,
and now we're all obsessed. Yeah, I love that process. But I also wanted to mention with with minor compounds, specifically minor cannabinoids. A lot of them are produced during the smoking process. So not necessarily in the plant, you might have the same starting compounds, but the second you light that on fire, you're producing a whole new suite of cannabinoids that are now going to be introduced to your body that the plant didn't necessarily make, but THC is going to break down into like 20 different compounds. CBD, same thing, all of them. And if you think of some of these compounds like, I think of CBT cannabis, Citron or cannabitre all there's kind of two of those. CBE cannabis, one, these are only produced through high heat, which means you have to smoke them in order to produce them. And they have unique benefits. One more is CBl, and that's actually converted from CBC. So not to like, only use acronyms here, but essentially, each of these cannabinoids is kind of being changed in a way when the high heat is introduced to them to produce, you know, a lot of people think of this in a negative way, being like, oh, byproducts, nasty things, but some of them are therapeutic and some of them are only produced during the smoking process. So some of our data shows that 80% of medical consumers prefer smoking over any other consumption method, and we believe it's because these unique compounds are being produced and they have unique medicinal benefits. Oh, my
God, that makes so much sense to me, right, that the plant probably evolved alongside this need and was cultivated to this need of the ones that probably burned on the campfires better. We're going to take a look at Herodotus when he wrote about the Scythians using it same idea that is so fascinating, that combustion plays such a critical role in this whole process. And that makes so much sense to me. Riley, everybody, like you said, most people prefer to smoke it, lots of edible users and stuff, right? But most people prefer to smoke it. And everybody has their own method, and they swear by this method Exactly. There's something going on there, even down to the lighter you use. I'm a nerd like you, but I can't even sit at the smoke sesh, without, like, seeing somebody use a torch lighter, and I'm thinking they're getting a different experience from like, igniting that at a higher temperature than a Bic that's almost out of gas. Oh,
and. You know, smoking, another thing that makes it so unique is you are smoking. You're technically dry herb vaping, because when you pull through, you're producing a oxygen deficient environment. So you're actually vaping the rest of the weed and the joint while you're smoking the end of the weed in the joint, so true. And then towards the very end of the join wind is getting towards the roach. You have concentrate there, because we've all had res lips. We've all seen, like, all of that resin build up. Wow. So you're you have three consumption methods in one, and smoking is like a really, really unique catalyst for this.
That's incredible. Really, really well put How do you consume? What is your normal go to consumption?
Yeah. So I'd say most the time I prefer smoking, but that's also because I prefer rolling. I like, I cannot gage quality unless I roll it. I can't join, yeah, into a joint. Oh, Team joint. Yeah, Team joint. But I will also say I am somebody who consumes every single way. Because to me in understanding what I call the expanded entourage effect, and understanding that what I was just talking about with smoking, yeah, you're producing all of these other compounds. Well, even with dry herb vaping, you're producing a different entourage effect. With edibles, it's going to be metabolized in your liver, so you're going to produce a different entourage effect. So if you're really kind of in touch with your body, you start to learn that each of these methods makes you feel a little bit different and might have a different use at a different time, whether that's if you're sick, if you're going to a social situation, if you're going for a walk in nature. Like, to me, I like to use them all as, like, tools in my toolbox, but I'm I'd say smoking joints is my number one, and then dryer vaping is my number two. Oh yeah,
some really good vape products coming out recently. I saw a few new ones in the market, and Farmer John just picked up one that people are loving to get that, like, big cloud vape experience with none of the combustion and smoke.
Yeah. I'm also, like, a huge fan of the volcano. Oh yeah. I love my volcano
is classic, yeah. And for me, I always do joints because I can't have nice things, like, I can't if I get, if I get nice glass, I'm just gonna break it. It's some sort of weird clumsiness curse. I
was gonna say, do you have cats, or are you yourself?
I just knock stuff over, and the studio has concrete, and it just never works out. So I get cheap glass, and then the cheap glass lasts forever, of course, but no one of the things I like to do is combust rosin, like I have an E rig for rosin, but sometimes I'll find myself just, you know, a hash hole or a rosin snake in the middle of a joint. And I see a lot of people using this method medicinally. It's not the most efficient, like cost effective, yeah, but what do you think about combusting rosin? Or do you think it's a waste?
I don't think it's a waste. I'm all about it. I think especially if it's from the same strain or cultivar, I think that's when it's, like, really special. When you have, like, a rosin and flour that's both the same cultivar, I think it adds so much flavor, it burns a lot slower, typically, so you get to enjoy it for longer. And especially great for sharing with people, like, there's nothing I love more than sharing a hash hole with a bunch of people? Yeah,
absolutely. Cultivators, cup April 12. Come on down, everybody. I want to make sure we give you plenty of time for plugs and everything. But first, what's next on the horizon? What are you working on next? With your podcast, with your research, what can you tease here on growcast?
Oh, man, we always have a billion things going on. But what I will tease is we have the nonprofit where we do a lot of research, but we're also starting kind of a new venture in Massachusetts where we we are opening an additional laboratory to do additional research that people who are cultivating cannabis can actually get a lot more information on their grow, as far as medicinal benefits, whether that's at a receptor specific level, whether that's antioxidant potential. So that's going to be our next big laboratory venture, is being able to give a few more answers to cultivators, whether it's a small cultivator or a huge cultivator, and actually put, kind of the biochemical rigor of pharmaceutical industry into the cannabis industry so we can get a few more answers, especially for the people who are seeking them. So that's one of our big things. And then just keep I'm planning on, just keep doing the podcast. I love it. I think it's a great way for me to learn from other people and kind of facilitate these conversations, rather than just hitting them up on LinkedIn, I can actually be like, Hey, do you want to talk about stuff? Because I think that's really fun to get that personal aspect. And we'll also continue the research through the nonprofit until we open this additional lab, and then they'll kind of be working in synergy together.
I really look forward to see what you end up doing with with all of your work in the lab and beyond. Where can people find the podcast? When is it released? And we'll send everybody over to subscribe. Cool,
yeah, the podcast is called bioactive. You can find it on all streaming platforms, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, if you're more of a visual learner, and it's every other week, and I called it bioactive, because it's mainly cannabis that we talk about, because that's what I'm obsessed with. But I'm also a natural product chemist, and I also really like to talk about other bio active things in the body. So sometimes we talk about pharmaceuticals. We're gonna have an episode on like ozempic soon. But also, you know, other natural products like monarchs and milkweed and psychedelics and all of these other things that are really interesting. So that's what the podcast is all about. You can also follow on Instagram, bioactive podcast. And then all my socials are cannabis, C, A, N, N, A, B, I, C, H, E M, and I produce a lot of just short form educational content. So you can find that on Tick, tock, Instagram, YouTube. And I think that's it
fantastic. If you liked this episode, which I know you did, listener, go and give a subscribe. That's CANNA Bucha, m, c, a, n, n, a, b, I, C, H, E M on Instagram and shoot Riley message say you heard her on grow cast and that you loved it. This was a tremendous episode. Riley, you're welcome back anytime. Best of luck in all your work and everything going on in life and beyond. And thank you for taking the time today to speak to the Grow cast universe.
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me on. This was a great conversation. Love nerding out with you
awesome and I love nerding out with you too, dear listeners, so make sure you subscribe for more content coming soon. That's all for today, though. This is Dr Riley Kirk and Jordan River, signing off. Wishing you an awesome day out there. Everybody be safe and never grow alone. Bye, bye.
Mad. Love. All
right, everyone, that's our show. Thank you so much for tuning in. That's all for now. I am hard at work on the cultivators cup. That's Saturday, April 12. Come on down. You can get tickets at growcast.com/events, and of course, jump into membership, get all the bonus content, direct access to team grow cast, discounts, resources, mini videos, live streams. It's all at growcast.com/membership, what are you waiting for? I'll see you on the inside. That's it, everybody. I am off to the cup now. I am. I'm gonna go do a bunch of work on the cult cup. Big fun event coming up, and then we will continue our regularly scheduled programming. Be safe out there, everybody, and I'll see you around bye, bye,
you can still detect that little bit of poopy in there at low levels. You.
