Stahl, I haven't checked the weather yet, but I know it is the perfect day to chat about adult Jewish literature. I'm Sheryl Stahl. Thanks for joining me here at Nice Jewish Books. Hello Today, I am so happy to be welcoming Saul Golubcow, the author of the Cost of Living, which is a couple of long short stories, and Who Killed the Rabbi's Wife. Welcome Saul.
Thank you. I'm glad to be here for a conversation.
So would you please tell me about your books? I'm doing them together, since they're all the same characters. Yes,
Yes, I'd be glad to ... perhaps a little background also would help understand my books. They were decades really, in waiting to be written. I I was born in a DP (displaced persons) camp in Germany after the war. My parents were Holocaust survivors, and they lost, well, they lost, they lost everything except really their lives and their desire to go on living Jewish lives and going into the future, you know, as Jews. I lived in a poultry farm in South Jersey called Vineland, and went to Rutgers University, our State University, where I majored in history at that time, and while I was there, I wrote short stories for the college literary magazine, and a professor took notice and encouraged me to become a writer. He wanted me to tend bar in New York, because he said, that's the best way to learn about people. And it was shock, shocking to me, that that ... so because one, I didn't know anything about bartending. I didn't frequent bars very much, but even more so, I kept thinking, if my parents find out, if my parents find out? What are they going to say? It's a Shonda, you know? What if our friends saw you in the bar? So besides the fact that it was the Vietnam War time, and instead of tending bar in New York, I went into VISTA Volunteers in Service to America, the stateside equivalent of the Peace Corps. And I served in the South Bronx, and learned a lot about people, you know, as as I served, I went to, then to graduate school at State University of New York at Stony Brook, and got a doctorate in English literature. My dissertation was Baseball as Metaphor and American fiction and at that time, I decided I wanted to write Jewish stories featuring Holocaust survivors. I put notes down on various characters, and because I had my dissertation, I had my teaching load as a graduate assistant. I'm one of those people that probably abused you Sheryl, in English composition than anyone else. If you remember your English Composition teachers.[Sheryl laughs] I taught English com for three years. I was there at Stony Brook, and I made notes to myself and one of my characters I was going to write about was a Holocaust survivor who was a professor in Europe, who comes to the United States after the war and becomes a detective. And I put the notes for that character and others in a drawer, and then life happened. That desk drawer got carried around to various parts of the country. I taught English literature for a while. I left because my wife is also an academic. And mortgage happened and children happened, and the decades went by until I retired about 10 years ago, and I said, you know, it's odd when, when a desk talks to you and says, Take Me Out of Here. Take me out of here. And the notes were talking to me, and I took them out, looked at him and said, Okay, it's really time, after all these decades, for me to, you know, get to the writing that I wanted to do so many years ago in the Cost of Living and other mysteries, and Who killed the Rabbi's Wife. My detective, my hero. Detective is Frank Wolf, who is based in terms of appearance and background on my father in law, a very elegant Old World gentleman who came over. He wasn't a professor, but he was educated at Vienna University. He had a doctorate degree. He studied for the Rabbinate, and he was a very wise man, and I tried to infuse the character of Frank Wolf with his wisdom, also the wisdom of my father and also the teachers that I've had through the years in terms of Western civilization and Jewish wisdom that had been imparted to me. So the narrator of the stories is Joel Gordon, his grandson, who is when the first story starts he is a law school student. He is a young whippersnapper who matures. I really I think I have, Sheryl, two heroes in my books, one Frank Wolf and the other, the first person narrator, Joel Gordon, who I'm trying to also do a coming of age story with Joel. You know that he has a lot to learn. He has a lot to learn from his grandfather. He has a lot to learn from life, and later on, he has a lot to learn from his wife, Aliya. And my stories, I really wanted to write Jewish stories. Now, that's nice. One would say you want to write Jewish stories. What do you mean by that? Well, that has been discussed and debated for a long time is, for instance, a book written in Yiddish or Hebrew on chemical reactions of lemon on seafood, a Jewish Book, right? Or go the other way. What about a book written in English when the chemical reaction of lemon or gefilte fish [Sheryl laughs] is that a Jewish Book? So I had my own standards, and I wanted to infuse, and I'll only talk about, I've written about other characters, but I only talk about Frank Wolf, and I wanted to write a Jewish detective story, and I'll let everyone know. What do I mean by that? It may not make sense to everyone, but it's only fair that I share what do I mean by a Jewish Book, by Jewish detective story, and to have to present memorable Jewish characters in a classic detective story, classic meaning like like Christie, like PD James. You know my heroes in in detective stories that the central events take place in a Jewish setting. All of my stories, the three novellas in the Cost of Living and other mysteries, Who Killed the Rabbi's Wife, and my latest novel come out later in the year, Were Angels Wrong. All take place in a Jewish setting. And while I want to make my book a page turner, I never want to lose that focus on a Jewish setting. Now Frank Wolf says that if he had to solve a mystery in an Amish setting, an Amish, let's say, a murder took place in an Amish setting in eastern Pennsylvania, he probably wouldn't have the skills. And he says the New York Police Department is a fine department. It's not, you know, I don't try to knock any police department, but that there is special knowledge of Judaism, Jewish culture, Jewish religion, Jewish community, that one needs, that one needs a Frank Wolf to help solve the mysteries, the cost of living involves the anchor book, The anchor story. Danker novella, is about the murder of a Jewish butcher in Borough Park. A little boy is missing. Is about the disappearance of a Hasidic eight year old in Williamsburg and the dorm murder. I'm sorry for our listeners who don't know New York, Williamsburg, Brooklyn. New York and the Dorm murder takes place in Washington Heights. New York. Frank Wolf is located in Brooklyn and involves the murder of a high school student.
Where do you come up with the ideas for your stories?
For instance, who killed the Rabbi's wife? Well, the idea came in New Jersey, about 20 years ago. There was a rabbi who hired, and I'll put that in quotes, hired two people to kill his wife having an affair with with someone, and he wanted the way Thomas A Beckett and Henry the second. Would someone rid me of this meddlesome priest? Would someone rid me of this meddlesome life? And I thought, Well, how would that work in the 1970s in a Jewish community with Frank Wolf solving the mystery. The cost of living is out of full cloth. I just imagined what kind of mystery would Frank Wolf based on my father in law, what type of detective story would work with him? A little boy is missing is based on the murder of a in 2012 of a ultra orthodox little boy in Borough Park Brooklyn, and the dorm murder is also based on a murder of high school student in a Jewish dormitory.
So it's hard talking about mysteries, because you don't want to give away the endings. But luckily, you have some really fantastic characters to talk about and to focus on. And you mentioned the inspiration for these stories. One thing I've noticed, though, is that none of them really have the evil intent that a lot of contemporary mysteries have. And now I don't know what I can say without it being too, without giving much away, but was that intentional on your part?
Yes, particularly, particularly in the three novellas that comprise the cost of living and other mysteries. It's sort of in the mode of Anne Cleves. I don't know if you know the Vera series, the Shetland series that she did over in England. But they are, if we can call anything motiveless, they are motiveless crimes. There is a convergence. There's a ... Frank Wolf talks about a darkness that lurks that, you know, in people, that has to be controlled by the person, by society. And in, at least in the first three novellas in the cost of living and other mysteries, the characters, three characters come together at a certain time in the Cost of living, and a butcher is murdered. As you notice, Sheryl, I'm trying not to give away names in case you know, so amazing. And in a little boy is missing, just as with the murder right real life murder, a little boy takes a wrong turn and meets up with a kidnapper it. You know, the kidnapper was not planning it. There's background to it, in terms of what the impulse is in the dorm, murder also three kids. And I don't care if I'm giving away the possible murders, but three kids come together at a certain moment in a dormitory, and one is killed. So yes, that is a very good insight, and who killed the Rabbi's wife? I'm also interested in complicity. It's okay. And as I progress with my writing of the stories, first, I really cared that not until really the end, that any of my readers know who the culprit is or why the murder occurred, I stopped caring about that as much as I kept writing the stories so that even three quarters, 80% of the way in, if a reader gets who the murderer is, guesses who the murderer is. There's more to it. There's the message that I also that I want to write in in my stories, for instance, and who killed the Rabbi's wife, there is a murderer, and there are others who are complicit. What does how does complicity figure into a crime? And again, I can explain better if I gave away plot Sheryl, but
Now we got to leave ... gotta leave something for the readers. So you mentioned that Agatha Christie was one of your inspirations. And I really felt that as I was reading this again, a lot of mysteries today are more in the Sherlock Holmes milieu. I don't know where it's like, oh, I super observers. I see this. I see that. I see that. Clue, clue, clue, put it all together. And you know, in this case, Frank Wolf is more of a Miss Marple type who sits and listens very carefully and puts together what people are saying, how people are saying, with his understanding of human nature, and, you know, weaves that into the answer. And I also love that he sits and thinks that he'll do the interviews. Or, you know, Joel will do, his grandson will do something, report back to him, and then he says, Okay, I'm gonna sit and rest and think. It's just such a novel approach these days. You know, in, you know, as, again, it's sort of all this fast clue, clue, clue, clue, clue, clue, put it together, right? That he just absorbs it and lets all the pieces kind of float around until they make sense.
Yes, and what he calls it his critical analysis. With the critical analysis approach to solving a crime, and Joel, of course, is more impulsive. He's, he's, he wants things done quickly. You know what's going on here? Let's figure this out, especially, you know, in the earlier stories. And so, you know, he's learning, and his grandfather is trying to tell them to patience, patience. You know. Let's, you know crimes are, there's a web, you know, to each crime that people figure in a web. Let's examine each and it doesn't take, it's not as if it weeks and months go by, you know, until he solves the crimes. But he does want to do analysis on the facts and also take out your prejudices, you know, your biases in terms of what you think of the person, or jump to conclusions of why it must be that person. It's not that I put out red herrings that you know, that are grossly placedd. You know, the I try for more, whether I succeed or not, subtlety in terms of dropping clues, and also, to your point, Sheryl, a lot of what he has to understand is embedded in, in Judaism, in the Jewish community, in Jew in, you know, in Jewish language, you know, in Jewish ritual. And so that's something that although Joel does have a a Jewish Day School Education, he is lacking, you know, the maturity and the experience and the greater learning to understand that Frank has and uses to solve the crimes in the Jewish community.
Yes. I thought that your depiction of Frank Wolf was really one of the best descriptions of an older man as a main character that I've seen, that a lot of times I've seen kind of extremes of "age is nothing." And I can go running and dashing and do everything I could do when I was young. Or else, on the other extreme, someone's old and decrepit and slow, and, you know, starting to lose their mind. And you could see someone whose mind is still very sharp, but who does need to physically slow down sometimes, and to, you know, not only sit to think, but to sit to rest. And so I just thought that was a really beautiful, realistic portrait of someone who was old and starting to feel age, but still very vital.
And and he is, you know, he is a Holocaust survivor. And so he has, you know, suffered some enduring pain, physical pain too, but it's an outward representation of slow down. I have to slow down for, you know, for my physical sense, but it also slow. Let's slow down Joel, for the sense of solving this, this mystery, you know, let's not rush to anything. And and, you know, of humor, I've gotten three communications from women. They're widows, and they ask, well, is, is Frank Wolf based on a currently living, real character? So I wouldn't mind meeting him?
Oh, that's wonderful And, of course, what a great compliment to your writing skills.
Oh, I do! I not only laughed, no, I took it really to heart, you know, those. And I also take to heart people who say, Well, you cost me a night's sleep because I kept reading, reading. And you know, we writers are vain, each and in our own way. And you know that really appealed to my vanity.
Yes, that was the case with me too. You kept me up past my bedtime.
Oh, thank you. Thank you.
So that that's one of the informal criteria I use about whether I'm going to invite an author. It's like, could I put the book down, or did I really want to know what happened next? So you know, with yours,
I Mine too. Mine too.
Really wanted to do that. Yeah, in terms of the Jewish content, you really dive into that from the absolute beginning. The there's an insurance company who wants to hire Frank to investigate this murder so that they can settle this claim. And he says, Oh yes, I can get started right away. And they're like, Oh good. So we'll hear from you in a day or two. And he's like, Oh no, you know, not until after the Shiva. You know, I'm not going to bother the family, you know, after the seven days of mourning, which they're very taken aback by. But it, you know, it just goes to to show that the Jewish practice and Jewish and respect for the mourner, even with this urgent issue that they the mourner takes priority.
That's right, and there was no point besides the widowed and family deserves that respect. There's no point to it. He knows that, and it's only a few days. And of course, with that, that's, of course, writers play various games. The cost of living, of course, is a metaphor. And the first expression is, is the money you know, the insurance company wants, you know, to is got a policy that they want to see. Maybe we don't have to pay it, you know, or how, what's a man's life worth? And, you know, that's, that's really the what is life worth? And, you know, how do we fight for, for justice, for for solving crimes, you know, for our integrity, it's all part of cost of living that I try to convey in my writing.
One thing I loved also were the relationships, so between the grandfather, between Frank and his grandson, and then, well, Frank's daughter, Malka. So they're basically very a small family. Frank's wife had not survived the Holocaust and so and Malka's husband had died ... husband had died of cancer, so it was just her and her father raising Joel together, and just the closeness and respect that they had for each other and the joy that they had in just each other's company was really lovely. And then the way that they welcomed AliyaJoel's girlfriend and then wife into the family, you know, was also beautiful with all the stereotypes of the horrible in laws, you know, they absolutely welcomed her and, you know, showed she was family, she was not just the daughter in law.
Yes, I belong to a writer's group, so we show each we meet every couple of weeks, and we show each other our drafts, and in my depiction of the Frank Wolf and family, one of the things that some people in the group say, When are they going to have a blowout and just start screaming at each other? And I said, Never, not every family has to have a blowout. Yes, there's tensions, but it's a family that cares deeply for each other, and especially through Frank Wolf, who is not a screamer blowout type of person in the way he handles he gets angry with Joel and the cost of living, but it's, it's more in terms of teaching him, you know, how to deal with certain situations, teaching him about pouts and where do pouts get you, as opposed to screaming at him and that, yes, that's what I'm trying to do. This family is not going to have a not talking for the next, you know, three weeks. You know, that sort of and may I say, show just a word about how Aliya came along into the family. Yes, please do after the cost of living in other mysteries was published, I did a a blog interview with a Paula Benson, she's a detective, mystery blogger, and she was complimentary. And at the end, she said, You know, I like your characters, but you don't do much with women. And my first reaction was going, you know, I felt my defensiveness going up, you know, I felt. My back, you know, going up and, you know, I was going to go into defensive posture. But then I quickly thought about it, and I knew she was right, because I was more comfortable writing about men. I come out of the locker room, you know, from 50 years ago. And I said, You're right, Paula, I'm going to have to do something about it. And so in who killed the Rabbi's wife, she has, you know, he marries a woman who, in the 1970s is dealing with the situation women were in in the 1970s and you know, the sexism, the the striving for independence while still trying to be traditional, is what Lee is about. And another, if you will, a tutor for for she loves Joel, and there's things that she chastised them, something she compliments. And that's how Aliya got introduced into the into the family. I really did have to do better. You know about writing about women, and Malka has a more of a role, and I hope to continue that
she also, Malka works, yes, outside the home to help support the family, right?
She is this he supported a family after her husband dies, yes,
yeah, Frank does bring in some money, but yes, it appears pretty sporadic
very, very sparse. Yes,
yeah, the relationship between Joel and Aaliyah is you can see, as you said, the love, but also they're both trying to deal with the changing roles and expectations. And yes, and he was raised in one way, and, you know, sees one example around him and has to learn that there are other, other ways to do things with Aliya there to nudge him along.
Yes, and, and, of course, I had a great model for that in my wife who nudged me along when we were first married, and I greatly appreciated love her for that.
So did you have any research that you had to do for the books?
That's an interesting question. So the stories take place in the 1970s why? I think there's two, one obvious reason, and one less than obvious. If it was the 1980s Frank would be too old. If it was the 1960s Joel would be too old.
too young,
I'm sorry. So I considered that the 70s, you know, where he's in his early 20s, and Frank is still vital, you know, in his in his 70s, would be the time, you know, to stage the the stories. The other is, if it's a com ... also coming of age story, Joel is not only Poirot's Hastings or Holmes' Watson. He, you know, he is more of a young man coming of age. And of course, that's me in the 70s. So I go. So a lot of it is memories, of sights, emotions, you know, that go back and and some research in terms, okay, so I remember Brooklyn a certain way in the 1970s Sheryl, right? Well, am I correct? That's a long time ago, right? Do I remember what trains? You know, I rode those trains, but do I remember exactly, right? So Mr. Google does help, but I've been in Los Angeles, say, four or five times, and if I really put myself to it, I probably could create a story that takes place in Los Angeles in the 1970s but it would be mechanical. I think I'm not sure how much heart and soul I would have, you know, in doing it. For instance, when it comes to Brooklyn, let me just read you, if I may, a short passage that I couldn't write about, about Los Angeles. So Joel, they're talking about, they're walking to synagogue on Saturday because they're to the synagogue of the rabbi who's accused, you know, of the affair of his wife is killed. And that's all I'm going to say again about that. But so I wrote young kids had already taken over the elm and Norway maple line streets with games of stoop ball, double dutch, free stack and on the street punch ball. Cars crawled, brakes screeching. Part of me wanted to stop enjoying the kids, especially. You were right before Avenue o Richie Colavito, my stoop ball partner when I was a kid, stopped his lawn mowing and clasped his brick laying hands around me. Richie married at 18, and he his wife and three children took over one of the duplex units in which he grew up. This was Brooklyn Flatbush neighborhood in the 1970s the neighborhood I remember that that's part of my heart and soul, that that memory. And I don't think I could have written that about Los Angeles. I think I would have to have grown up there to have, you know, the heart and soul memories,
right? Yeah, that makes sense. So you mentioned that you have another book in the works. Is that also about Frank Wolf.
Oh yes, yes, yes, it is. It's called Were Angel's wrong, and you'll have to it should come out. It's in pre publication review now. It should come out in the mid fall, and the plot is a Holocaust survivor is murdered in his Brooklyn apartment. Another holocaust survivor is accused of the murder and arrested for the murder, and Frank Wolf is brought in to resolve if that is right. The person accused of the murder is Malka Frank, (or Molly) Frank's daughter's, new first, really, since, since the death of her husband. She's, as they said in the 1960s and 70s, she's keeping company with this, with this man, and so it's also family personal. It's very personal to Joel, you know, who is dealing with his "my mom has a boyfriend." You know, my dad only died 10 years ago for heaven's sakes. So it's and Aliya trying. You know, I won't go Aliya is involved, but not as much for a certain reason. And I, I would have to tell you more about the plot. But you know, you have to understand the Jewish community, also the Jewish community of South Jersey, the poultry community after World War Two, where some, some of the action takes place. So I can't give away the full plot, but that's the basis. And there is not family conflict, but Frank is challenged spirit, not spiritually as much. But am I doing the right thing? Because it's so in my investigation, because it is so personal, is his daughter, and it's Joel's Mother, and that's another level, you know, of we've that I try to put in, into the book, into the book, into the plot that contributes to making it more difficult, You know, to solve.
Well, I look forward to reading that when it comes out.
I'll let you know. Sheryl, thank you.
So is there anything you'd like to answer about your books or the characters that I haven't thought to ask?
I talked about why it's in the 1970s and so I find especially with younger readers and books at this point, so many have to be younger readers. I'm not a up and coming writer, but I'm a baby boomer writer who still has the vigor as Frank does, to write, and God willing, it'll continue. I talked about, you know, my heroes. I talked about Aliyah [about] place, as I said, it's, it's part of my heart and soul going back, you know, with with those memories, and making it a really Jewish Book, I mean, Harry kenmelman, you know, from the Friday the rabbi slept.Do you know those books when?
Yes, I remember that.
Now. I read one after another, when they when they came out, and I loved them. But the the the mysteries are not solved so much by Rabbi Small as they are by Sheriff. Or is it detective Lanigan? Rabbi Small, of course, his wisdom, His knowledge of the community, Jewish community, helps him. I wanted to make any fully more fully so in terms of a Jewish detective, solved. Involving crimes in a in a Jewish environment in in the 1970s in the 1970s
so I like to give everyone an opportunity to put out a call for tikkun olam, for repairing the world. So what would you like to to see happen in the world.
Wow, this complicated for me. These days, writ large, tikkun olam, writ large, I believe, is the Jewish experience. In other words, light to Nate to other nations. That the Jewish experience fully and not only fully engenders tikkun olam, but if we, if we look at museums, go into Museum and we see this hall, you know, by a grant from this Jewish family and that hall. And if we go to universities and look at buildings, we see a lot of the benefactors, you know, we're Jewish as part of their drive towards Tikkun Olam. And maybe I'm channeling Frank Wolf when I'm thinking that tikkun olam, like charity, perhaps starts at home. And for me now, the the work to identify and fight against anti semitism so that Jews can continue our work in building a better world. Is, I think, today, for me, my most important activist type of activity that unfortunately, sadly, I think Jews in the United States, other parts of the world are under attack, and if we can join in with a lot of great Jewish organizations, American Jewish Congress, center, ADL, is now strongly, you know, mobilizing resources to to fight anti semitism, I think for me, that is my focus now to build a better world by Jews being safe and confident in this country and throughout the world.
Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. So if someone would like to contact you, what is the best way?
I love getting emails. I mean, you have my email and that could be published. Is that? All right? Sheryl,
yeah, of course, whatever you want.
I just like getting it's not so much fan mail, you know, sometimes it's, why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? And it's important, you know, I can learn from that. I should learn from from that, and I welcome it. Thank you for asking.
Okay, I'll put that in the in the show notes. Great. All right. Well, Saul Golubcow, thank you so much for speaking with me today about the Cost of Living and Who killed the Rabbi's wife. So collectively, The Adventures of Frank Wolf, our Holocaust survivor, former philosophy professor and Detective,
yes. Thank you so much for the conversation. I appreciate it.
Thank you so much for being here. If you are interested in any of the books we discussed today, you can find them at your favorite Board and brick or online bookstore, or at your local library, thanks to deanki for use of his Freilich, which definitely makes me happy. This podcast is a project of the Association of Jewish libraries, and you can find more about it at www.jewishlibraries.org/nice
Jewish books. I would like to thank AJL and my podcast mentor Heidi Rabinowitz, Keep listening for the promo for her latest episode. You
Adam, hi. This is Adam Gidwitz, author of Max and the land of lies. I'll be joining you soon on the Book of Life podcast. I'd like to dedicate my episode to the hand in hand school network in Israel, where they are doing the incredibly hard, vanishingly rare work of bringing Jewish and non Jewish Israelis together, and where I learned the concept of resilient listening. We need much more resilient listening in our world, rather than shouting down or deporting those with whom we disagree.
The Book of Life is the sister podcast of nice Jewish books. I'm your host. Heidi Rabinowitz and I podcast about Jewish kidlit. Join me to hear my conversation with Adam Gidwitz, author of Max in the land. Of lies@bookoflifepodcast.com you.
