Okay, now we're very happy to be joined by guests today. It's Ken go the long time tracking field beat reporter who retired on November 6 off to 43 years at the Oregonian. Ken wrote about a variety of sports, but notably college football, but to us he was best known as one of the few remaining track and field beat report is in a major newspaper in the United States. He covered NCAA championships, US championships, Olympic trials, Olympic Games, and anything arm game related. So the duck Spellman track club and the Oregon project rip, you name it. So Ken, thanks so much for joining us and tell us yeah, how's retirement treating you?
Yeah, so far, so good. My wife and I just got back from three days at the Oregon coast where the weather was not Oregon, like it was sunny was warm, what the wind wasn't blowing. So it was a delightful three days and it's sort of a good springboard into this next chapter.
Oh, that's awesome. I mean, it's funny, whenever I go out to Oregon, it's always like May or June, it's usually pretty nice. So it's kind of weird that you know, the rest of the year, it's more or rainy. So I'm glad you guys had that good weather. Yeah, thank you. You've been covering track and field for as long as I've been following the sport as long as you know, as long as I've been involved in the sport. But you know, how long have you been covering the sport? When did you first start reporting on track and field? How'd you get your start?
Well begin life at the Oregonian, as a high school writer, a preps writer, so I did cover High School track, then that was my first exposure to it, I was not a track participant in high school, or college, I didn't particularly relate to the sport, I was more of a baseball guy. So it was all brand new to me a lot of trial and error, which you can get away with at the high school level. But when they had me started covering the ducks, in the late 80s, my lack of knowledge was really exposed. And I was constantly embarrassed by what I wrote. But But over time, and in that was sort of hit or miss because the Oregon program went into a period there in the, from the late 80s, through the early 2000s, where it wasn't very relevant locally, maybe a little more nationally, I think, you know, a lot of cases, they still competed well, nationally, but they didn't know host home meats. And so for the most part, so there was no real reason to cover them locally. So we sort of paid attention to them, but it wasn't intense beat coverage. And, and a lot of that was done by one of my colleagues anyway. So it really wasn't until they went out and brought vinland Anna in to sort of try to reawaken tracktown, USA that, excuse me, the Oregonian, got interested in it again, and made me a beat writer. So that's, that's really when I became an intensely track writer from usually from somewhere in the indoor season, I didn't always start with the start of the indoor season, because there's no indoor track here. There are indoor track teams, but there isn't a facility. And through the spring and sometimes into the summer, when there was an Olympics game, so Olympic Games. So
that's how what did you did you enjoy covering track from the first time you start covering? Or did it take you a while to actually, you know, enjoy and appreciate the sport?
No, it's scary. If you're a mainstream sports writer you come in, there's so much specialized knowledge that you have to have to really write about it knowledgeably and a lot of things that are counterintuitive to a sports writer that covers ball games, you know, football, basketball, baseball, and I had to learn, and I had to learn a lot of times by making mistakes. And a lot of times it was really embarrassing. And that's, you know, when I when I picked this board up again in 2005, that's when I discovered Let's run and and to be honest, you guys helped a lot because we would cover the same thing. And then I would look at what you guys wrote and I called God I missed this. I missed this. I missed this. And so it, it sort of helped me gain a knowledge of the sport from a technical standpoint
was Can I think you're giving us too much credit because I was trying to do the math in my head when Michael van that's kind of when we started. And I just remember going to meet an Oregon and like meeting you and seeing you and I'm like oh this guy knows what he's doing. Maybe you helped us with the Oregon scene. And I don't know I just Well first of all, I wanted to kind of jump in and thank you for all you've done for the years and you were you were a good guy like you were helpful to us anything we needed with Oregon and that sort of stuff. So I'm glad our articles could help in some way with you because it's interesting to hear you talk a go I really messed up and I'm like what now this guy knows track and field like Ken's a track and field guy. So it's interesting to hear that transformation.
What I most appealed to me about the sport were the people the actual events. You know when it when it was a close race or you know a close competition in the shot or the long jump or the pole Whatever that that was fun, but the actual technical parts of how you throw the shot or how you train to be a good intermediate runner that didn't resonate with me as much as the people and I found track and field athletes and coaches, fascinating people, they were tend to be very articulate, very knowledgeable about what they do and why they do it. And very easy to interview, I don't maybe football players are jaded, they get interviewed so much that it doesn't ever come across as fresh and interesting. And I really rarely had that problem with the track athlete. I love talking to track athletes. People like Nick Simmons. Very generous with his time. Very interesting what he said that I always had to make sure my recorder was going though, because I had no chance of keeping up with Nick Simmons in full flow with notes. I mean, it's just his. It was he was so articulate, and he spoke so rapidly. And it all made so much sense that Yeah, Don recorder better be working.
Yeah, Nick, it was definitely great to cover and I got to cover him towards the very end of his career. But is there anyone else that really stands out any personalities you really enjoy talking to or any stories that stand out?
Well, it'd be more, there'd be more that they don't. Dan Steele, who was a longtime assistant track coach at Oregon, and later went on, he was fun to talk to he was a great interview. English gardener, who was sprinter at Oregon, went on, I believe, is still running professionally, and maybe getting towards near the end of her career, but still competitive at the international level. God, it just there's so many I hate to start throwing them out there because I'll miss somebody that it's easier to say that they were almost all
good. Hmm. And you think it's just, you know, they're not maybe it's just they're not covered as much as football players that they eager for the spotlight? Is that why you think we have more articulate or more interesting people than maybe football or basketball or something like that?
I think, you know, there's I don't want to just to come across wrong because there are smart football players. But I think on the average track and field athletes are more reflective. And they're, they're probably intellectually more successful at college and tend to be more articulate. Now, I don't know why that is. I mean, you guys were both track athletes. Oh, maybe you have a better understanding of why that is. In part, maybe, in college, very few track athletes are on full scholarship. So they have to be serious students or that they don't get to compete. And that might be part of it. I don't know, I guess maybe distance runners are spending a lot of time out there putting in the miles, you got to think about something, right? So maybe you think about why you're doing what you're doing and how to explain it. I don't really know. But that's just my experience. It's all anecdotal. I haven't gone out and done IQ tests on people. But it just in my experience, track and field athletes were much more interesting to talk to over a longer period of time.
Yeah, remember, Alan Abramson, who's an Olympic writer covered other Olympic sports. He's kind of said the same thing about track athletes. And I can only speak for distance runners, but you're saying applies to shop owners and everybody else? So I don't know, I think for distance running. And maybe this applies to other sports and track and field. distance running, you're just out there. It's such a grind. You're probably constantly questioning like, why am I doing this? Whereas like football, there's a team element. There's camaraderie, there's probably parts in practice, they're just a lot more fun. And distance running. And maybe there's fun in practice, you're essentially, you know, running next to someone for an hour, hour and a half on an easy run. That's easy. So you're going to talk about that. So then you're thinking, but I don't know, I haven't figured it out. I always wonder like, why do we run and why are we doing this? And but that probably comes out because anyone who's in track and field first didn't get into it for that, like fame and glory. They might have been good at it. But at some point, it's kind of off the beaten path.
Yeah, I think that's true. Absolutely. And, you know, it's not just this is Adam Nelson was a great interview, Chuck Witter. He was phenomenal to talk to and, and phenomenal to watch. I mean, he put on a show. I think some track fans don't pay a lot of attention to the shot but he he commanded attention when he was out there.
Probably Dartmouth's greatest ever track and field athlete I think he was also president of his fraternity at Dartmouth he was a you know, like all around very fascinating fellow. But I'm interested like you know, you mentioned you really love the people but I'm sure you also covered a lot of great meats you know it you know, the Olympics or it at Heywood field us championships trials, what races really stand out to you sort of favorite ones, you've got to witness the
favorite thing I ever covered in my entire career, not just track, but also Sports was the 2008 Olympic Trials final in the 800 meters which I still go back and watch that NBC replay of that and get chills. With the way Simmons came out of the back and weeding behind him. And at the time, I did not notice Christian Smith coming up the inside. I didn't even see him dive at the finish line. And I was just sort of mesmerized by the way that Simmons and waiting had come out of the back and and the way they challenged down the home straight and in one and the crowd reaction which I don't know that I've at any sporting event I've ever been at have I heard a crowd that loud? And then I think I was sitting next to Doug Bender, who now is the editor for dice debt. And he elbowed me. I think Christian Smith got third place. And then they showed the the the results up there on the scoreboard in damned if he didn't. And as an Oregon writer, that probably resonated with me more because all three guys were either from Oregon or represented Oregon. Christian Smith was not from an Oregon college, but he ran for OTC elite. And semmens my gosh, he was Division Three athlete at Willamette and he, everybody thought he had a chance to make the team. I don't know how many people thought he was going to win. And weding was still running for Oregon. And everybody thought, you know, he, he's a good athlete, and, you know, his sometime in the future, he might make it on the international level. I don't know if anybody thought he was going to make the Olympic team. So that was amazing. And then another one, when Ashton Heaton set the world record at the Olympic Trials again, what a moment. And again, that the crowd response was incredible. And then the way the athletes, the other athletes on the track sort of helped him along, which I think is another part that's really cool about track. It's hard as some of those athletes compete against each other. It's an individual sport, and they can they find a way to separate their own attempt to do their best. And still appreciate those around them who were also doing that and may do it a little bit better. On that day in the decathlon, I think all the other decathletes were pulling for actually needing to break the world record. And he did was it was crazy.
Yeah, I mean, those two were crazy races. I remember Curtis beach who was like he was a better middle distance runner than Ashton, but he sort of pulled aside and let Eaton break the tape to get the world record. And it just feels like every, every Olympic trials, there's like that one race that really stands out that one moment it was that in 2012, it was the you know, the 802,008 I think in 2016, it was probably that men's five k with Bernard Lagat winning and that wasn't you know, I don't think it was quite as historically significant as those other two but that is that's just like the the best meat to go to, I think as a fan in the United States as the Olympic trials and really special. I agree. I'm curious, though, what is your press box to meet it? Because I know when I'm watching those races from maybe the top of Haywood field, I can't help I don't root for athletes, but I can't help and yell like, if I see legato steaming down on the outside with 200 ago, I'll just be like, Oh my God, look at that guy. Or if he holds him off, I'm like, Oh my god, that was crazy. I'll be I'll be yelling not for any one person, but just sort of the race. Do you? Do you ever get like that? Are you more chill? What's your demeanor in the press books?
I'm usually trying to make sure that I see what's going on and then I can adequately describe later So yeah, I don't recall ever yelling. But, but just want to make sure I get it. Right. You know, when I when I write about it, I want to correctly describe what happened. And, And to me, that's not just what's happening on the track. It's what's the crowds doing, especially at Hayward field, because the fans that are tend to be really engaged in the competition. So yeah, there's too much going on in my mind to maybe do what the the more natural thing, which is to just appreciate what's happening. I'm too focused on what's happening. And can I describe it correctly later?
There's one thing I'm curious about, like, I got into sports journalism. I think many people most people who do this because we love sports, and I'm always curious, like, if I cover this for 40 years, am I gonna get jaded? Am I not gonna appreciate that? Do you ever feel like that happened to you in your career? Do you feel like you like it love sports just as much as when you started covering them? No, in some ways, I
think I did get jaded. My wife doesn't she's a sports fan. She doesn't like watching sporting events with me because I tend to think why did this happen? What what's the next step is just thinking about logically what's happening in the game and, and not being a fan. Not like, it's hard for me to stand up and cheer. So she took a look at that. Look at that great pass. It's a touchdown and I think well how Did the receiver get free on that play? So it's like I'm looking at it in a real different way. And I, as you mentioned in your opening, I do have covered a lot of college football that was I was into that actually before track I first started covering the the Oregon Ducks in 1984 in at various times covered Oregon State and was the Oregonians roving what was then the PAC 10 writer where I was, we didn't really have a national writer like maybe the New York Times, or the Los Angeles Times or The Washington Post us but I was a regional writer, I went up and down the coast to the PAC 10 games at the time that the top games every week. But I have become jaded about college football a lot. I mean, I still like the players and I can enjoy the games at the skill level that people play at. But the stuff around the sport, I find very distasteful the amount of money that's spent on college football and the fact that a lot of these guys, I think are being used for their ability by the schools that are at at the at the major college level, and then just sort of discarded after it's over. I mean, to me that the fans and the boosters, their allegiances, essentially do the uniform, not to that individual. And when the individual is gone. They care about him, if he goes on in the NFL and has a great career. They like to take credit for that and root for him. But, but if the guy doesn't make the NFL he's forgotten. And he's that guy went out there and put his body on the line on the gridiron for four plus years and might have come out of it with some sort of disabling injury. And so what there's a new new team new new players new reasons to be excited. So yeah, that that part is jaded me. Well, I'm less jaded about the the track athletes but it's, it's stuff around the sport, you know, the way it's governed. I find what USA track and field does sometimes just incomprehensible. Like that, they're not that interested in, in making the sport better, it seems to me I'm I might be missing something, but they're just caught up in in the governance of it. and and, and and you know, sort of maximizing the revenue that they can get out of it. But but the athletes sort of get left out. And that bothers me.
Yeah, I think one of the criticisms I've heard, you know, during this pandemic is just us ATF they they did hold like a road mile championships in I think, July or August or something, but really haven't. They didn't seem interested in having a national championship. So I get that it's tough. But like you look at the other major sports well, major sports a finding a way to hold these meats, and USA TF, whether it's a money issue, or a lack of interest, really hasn't. And most of the coaches like, well, we don't expect them to anyway, but I think it's a bummer for the athletes. Not fun. It was the first time since like, almost Civil War, I think that it wasn't a national championships and track and field.
Yeah, you know, I get it on one level because the pandemic serious. And the track, you're bringing people in from all over the country at to a single place and to make it financially feasible, you want to have fans, right, I mean, that they're not making enough money on it on TV contracts to to make it pay off that way. So but I mean, on a local level, I think they people did stage track means we had some here that the Big Friendly track meets, there were some in Southern California, I think I'm in Georgia, I'm in Michigan, where they found ways to make it safe. And it would have been interesting to see if on a national level, US ATF or somebody could have found a way to to use those same principles and guidelines that they used to make them safe at the regional level and do something.
Because I mean, you look Europe, you're okay. I think during the summer, they were probably handling the pandemic better than the United States was, but they most of the countries in Europe seem like they found a way to hold national championships, and they're not coming from as far apart as United States. But, you know, you would think they might be able to figure it out somehow. And it just it didn't even seem like they're interested in doing that. To me. That's what I got out of it. But I want to go back you mentioned football, you know, you've covered football for a long time as well. And the differences between the athletes. What were the other differences you found in covering the two sports like was it just in terms of media or was it just they were more people covering football or anything else that really stands out to you?
Yeah, over time, access to college football players has become more and more difficult. college coaches have really limit how much I guess access is the right word they you can have two individual players. And for me sports has always been about that people participate paying more than the competition's anyway, and the stories of which I'm most proud that I've done have generally been profile stories where you get to know somebody and, and sort of explain about them in a way that makes them resonate with readers. And I think in football, it's maybe even more important because the public doesn't see those guys. I mean, they they're all padded up with helmets and, and pads. And sometimes when they take off their helmets, and you engage them in that way, they become a lot more interesting, at least to me. There was a running back at Oregon several years ago when I was covering the team name. Well, Michael James, who was he was a finalist for the Heisman and a fairly guarded with the media lots of times, but but I had a chance to meet him and it's hard to get past that. And he's a fascinating guy and khanjan Barner. I don't know if he's still in the league. But he was up until last year for sure. Also another just fascinating person. Once you got past the, the how, you know, how did you see the whole war rethinking? When you pass the line of scrimmage? What did that pass look like? What was it well, from you get all the pro forma questions and really get into to their lives. And you know, what makes them tick? To me, that's interesting.
So I want to ask about a track and field personality, who I'd say is was generally got it with most members of the public. This is Alberto Salazar. Now you're one of the few media members, you know, maybe the only one that he would talk to on a semi regular basis, what what was it like covering him?
I went into it pretty guarded, actually. Because I had read a lot of what other people have said about him. And when I first started covering him, john cook had just split with the Oregon project, and it was pretty acrimonious split. And I was hearing a lot from john cook about why he didn't like Alberto and how unethical he thought he was. And I arranged that do an interview a one on one with Alberto at the Nike campus. And he started disarming because he dealt with all those questions head on, in a way that seemed open. And so I wrote a story, a profile of, of Alberto, and he liked the story, he thought I was fair to him. And that probably gave me some credit with him, then. He has at times thanked me for having an open mind about him. I I don't think a lot of people in the sport do have an open mind about him. I think they have made up their mind from the start that this guy's up to no good. And there, there is some circumstantial evidence that might lead you to believe that. But I think most of the evidence, I've seen that the evidence of which I'm aware is circumstantial. I know he he's been banned. And I know, water. nailed him on several things. I never saw any of those things as particularly genius. They indicated to me a guy that was trying to stay within the rules while getting as close to the line as he could, which is that sort of Alberto. And in a couple cases, it looks like he he maybe got over the line. A little bit, but I never saw it as Ben Johnson or Marion Jones type cheating. I think the the emails he exchanged with SATA. During that period show he was trying very carefully to stay within the rules. So I think he he liked the fact that I had an open mind about it. And then I hadn't made up my mind that he was guilty.
Well, it's it's interesting, because there are some people like so we just read this book when it'll cost by Matt ha, I'm not sure if you've read it yet. But one of the lines in May he mentioned you and he said you know that you had historically contorted his objectivity. Those are his words and effort to stay in the Nike men's good graces. I think that sometimes comes up on message boards too, so and say, Oh, you can go he's too soft on how Bodo you know, he's the only one he talks to. Do you think that criticism is fat?
Well, I want to separate two things to start with. I want to separate Nike and Alberto. I think a lot of the criticisms Alberto takes are actually criticism from Nike and the way that Nike conducts business which I think is unfair. Nike is a very difficult organization to cover there. For instance, Phil Knight has never consented to an interview request with me. Dealing with Nike PR is an exercise in futility often because no matter what you ask, they say no. So I reject the criticism that I'm soft on Nike, I don't think you'd have a hard time finding anything that I've written that would indicate that I was the question of Alberto, I think gets down to how you evaluate the evidence. And, to me, I've seen very little persuasive evidence that he was a systematic cheater. Now, maybe you can say, Well, it depends on how you define cheating. And that might be a fair point. And maybe people are saying, when they criticize me for, for being soft, and Alberto that he was, I'm not, I'm not being critical enough of him for being in a gray area, or violating the spirit of the rules. I've never understood the spirit of the rule thing anyway. To me, that's a subjective opinion. I mean, who's gonna, who's who's defining what the spirit of the rule is that there is a rule, and it's the rule is black and white, and you either have broken that rule, or you haven't. And the spirit of the rule thing gets gets really iffy. And, and maybe that's partly from covering other sports. Like, if you cover baseball, and there's a runner on second base, he's trying to pick off the catcher signs and relay him to the batter. And that's considered part of the game. I know, the Astros this last year, sort of stepped over that by using high tech equipment, and that's where we're baseball seems to have drawn the line about what's the spirit of the rules, but but science dealing itself is considered part of the fabric of the game. Track seems to be much more strict in its defining what's the spirit of the rules, but again, it's it's an individual interpretation of what that is. And I still am yet to be persuaded that Alberto Salazar did anything other than be a really tough coach who did his utmost to get his athletes to win? And yeah, he probably stepped into a gray area sometimes and maybe got too close to the line but again, not genius, not Marion Jones, not not, you know, any of the the rampant cheaters that that were clearly caught doing something wrong. I haven't seen it.
So that's interesting, because one of the Matt Hart criticism I thought was unfair, because I would see this criticism on Let's run sometimes, with people saying that Oh, Ken's too soft on Nike, too soft and Alberto and I thought that was an interesting distinction you made. And I'm like, well, one kins talking to Alberto. He's talking to Galen Rob, you're gonna present their side of the story,
I get the fact that people think I was too soft Alberto. And I tend to view that as more I have an open mind and present me with the evidence that he was a black art and a cheater. And also a Okay, I agree. I'll criticize him too. I have not seen that evidence. I've seen a lot of smoke. I've seen very little fire. I will say the stuff with Mary Kane was disturbing. I remember Mary Kane when she first burst onto the scene and How delightful a young athlete was and how full of promise and life and joy she seemed to be in her her joy in the sport was was infectious. I used to like to watch her post race interviews because she was just such a happy person and and and she just was so enthusiastic about what she was doing. And whatever happened here with the Oregon project clearly took that away from her. Now, where I I'm not sure is how much of that can be pin strictly on Alberto. I think he probably wishes he had a now in retrospect that he had a woman assistant coach who could have maybe helped him deal with with things that are are specific to women runners that especially young women runners that in he had not had young women runners, but he had older ones, but but never a young woman and, and, you know, I think maybe if the canes were to look at this in retrospect to they would question their decision to decide to send Mary out here at that age. I'm not defending anything that that happened between Alberto and Mary Kane. I'm just, you know, the whole thing was disturbing and I feel really bad that that that happened to her and that she lost that joy and enthusiasm for for the sport.
Yeah, I think The one you know, bodos critics, I think they would also say, Well, it wasn't just married because Amy yota Begley has come out saying she was fat shamed, and, you know, car gaucha I mean, the car guy should they got along really well. And then that ended badly, obviously, as well. But I'm curious like about the Salazar and rough. I mean, those two had such a close relationship for so many years. You know, he's been coaching Galen, since he was in high school. And then suddenly, in the middle of World Championships last year, Alberta was banned, and he's not allowed to coach him at all. And he basically, Connie, you know, you can maybe say, Hey, I can't coach him anymore. What do you think their relationship is like? Let now do you think it's totally severed? Do you think they still talk as friends like, and how do you think it's been on both of them just not being able to have this coach Ashley athlete relationship that they had for almost two decades?
Y'all want to start by saying I don't really know. I mean, I haven't talked to Alberto since the ban. So he, I think, on the advice of his lawyers, he's really limiting who he talks to and what he says. So I don't know if they talk. But I, I think they were moving a little apart. Anyway, even before this happened. I think. As Galen matured and got older, he had his own ideas about what he wanted to do early in his career. Alberto, basically, control everything. And I don't think Galen saw reason not to have it that way because he was successful. But I think as Galen matured, and became went from a high school, athlete to a man, I think he started to have his own ideas about what he wanted to do. And he didn't want to be controlled that way anymore. So I think, and I and to Alberto's credit, I think he, he understood that too, and let up on the reins a little bit. And Galen began having more of a say in what he did and how he did it. So when the break came, I don't think it was as shocking as it might have been otherwise. And I think that's clear that, you know, Galen was ready to go his own way. He He could have joined p Julian's training group, which was the word a lot of the origin project runners went after the split. Had, he wanted to continue with Alberto's philosophy. Now, I'm not saying pizza carbon copy of Alberto because he's clearly not he's his own man. And he, he trains people his own way. But if Galen had wanted to, to stay connected, whatever that however you define that to, to where he had been in the past, that would have been the natural move, instead, he went outside. And I think that's just because he has more confidence in himself, and more of an understanding of what he wants outside of Alberto, so, I think that was gonna happen anyway. To some extent.
That's, that's really interesting. I mean, that because Alberto is currently he's appealing his ban to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. They're supposed to hear it in March. Like, if they overturn it, do you? Do you think a llama go back to a bowtie? Or do you think it would stick with Mike Smith?
I don't know. That's a good question. I suspect they would, they would get together to an extent. But I, I also think Alberto had had led up a little bit on on, like I say, on how he was coaching, Galen and Galen had much more of a say in how he did things towards the end of his time with Alberto than he had at the beginning. So even if they got back together, it wouldn't be. Alberto, just in total control of Galen, it would be Galen would would be the primary person in charge of Galen, and he would accept coaching. me maybe from Smith, maybe from Alberta, I don't know. They're pretty as you say, they were pretty close. And Gail and dad even said he saw Alberta was sort of a second father to Galen. And part of that isn't running part of that's their religion. They're both conservative Catholics, and they have a very similar religious philosophy and orientation. I think that will continue until one of them dies, I mean, that that part of their relationship will always be close. But I think Alberto is being very careful not to violate the terms of his probation, or his ban. Because as you say, he has an appeal coming up. And I think he wants to win that appeal. And he doesn't want to do anything that would jeopardize that.
Well, it's interesting that you said Galen was starting to separate a little bit from Alberto just get a little more independence, because I didn't notice that, you know, from afar, but I think it was happening, and it just shows sort of the insight you get there from being closer to them. Because now I see gay when doing interviews and stuff, and it's like, wait, this is what you should do. Like the press isn't your enemy. But if you never speak to them, like you'd probably know this better than us. Reporters want quotes, they want access and you don't get it. We're human beings, right. Like you still try to be fair, but it's like well, are they trying to hide something? What's going on? So it's good to see Galen get sat outside of his shell.
Yeah. And I think that's a good point. And I think Galen is a pretty good guy. Really. I also think he's shy and reserved. And I think when he limited when he spoke to most reporters to sessions in the mix zone, that that tended, he tended to get a certain sort of question, right? I mean, if that's the only time people can talk to him, then that's when they're gonna ask their tough questions, which maybe isn't the best time for either the reporter or the athlete, and it made it made him get more guarded still. And I, I think it is good that he's opening up and you get to see, this guy is smart, you know, he, he is a four point plus student in Oregon in business. He's got a wife, and he's got a family. He's, he's, he cares about other people. I mean, he's he's not this Ottoman that I think he often got portrayed. And partly because of the way he and Alberto handled that period, when everybody was, so everybody at the Oregon project was so suspicious of most of the running media.
Yeah, I mean, just I, in my interactions with him. I've interviewed Galen probably a dozen times to this point. And I think everything single time, it just seems like he's had the walls up. And I don't think I've ever gotten to know the real Galen Rupp, because just when he's talking to me, it's in a mixed zone, or it's a press conference. And you know, he's not going to open up to me that way.
Well, you know, that's To be honest, I think that's a point where your message boards get in the way too, because a lot of I would always defend you guys. Would people would comment to me back when, for a long time, the Oregonian allowed comments in our stories, and I used to like to interact with the readers in those comments. Because I think he could disarm some of the ones that were really vitriolic. If you just engage with them, and you could see that you were a person and they were a person. And yeah, you may not agree with everything. But both of you are Kim about how you believe honestly. But your comments sections can be very brutal to the origin project to Alberto and to Galen. And I always draw a line there. I mean, I I don't see Let's run is the worst of the comment section. To me, let's run is Jonathan golf analysis of race or, or what the week that was, which I always that's one of my favorite things to read every week. Because it's a great synopsis and of the week in a sport. And and most of the comments are really well taken. And it's a really nice survey. To me, that's less wrong. But I stay off the message boards, because the things you see there, whether they're about me, or they're about somebody else, or just a lot of times poisonous. And to me that, like there's too much going on in my life. And there's too many other stresses to get into that. So
yeah, no, I mean, I think that Suddenly, like a fair criticism with some of the stuff towards Galen, especially when he was young, like, you know, late High School, early college is, and Weldon could probably speak more to this, but I think we admit, you know, he, he got some rough treatment on there. I don't think it was fair for any teenager to experience it.
And not just him all sorts of runners. Even people that are the nicest people in the world, and people who are open with the press there, for whatever reason there. There exists in the cyber world, these people that just like to throw darts at other people. And we had them in the Oregonian message boards do which is why the Oregonian did away with them.
It can you're touching on a few things. I mean, John's not responsible for the message board comments, and that falls on me more so and just a couple interesting things want to comment on first. Yeah, Galen used to just, I mean people talk about, it's interesting, cuz you also mentioned Mary Kane earlier, Galen probably got it just as bad as Mary Kane, but there's this whole sex angle on top of it. He's a man. People comment on his body. I mean, Galen will rob if you're listening right now, like owe you an apology. I mean, I had Alberto and then banana both take me aside of the 2008 NCAA championships and rip into me like you have to do a better job. And I'm like, it's a public forum. And like, we went in that night and put in filters like you couldn't post RUP in the word gay at the same time, because people make this homophobic slur. And I'm like, What? So essentially, you can talk about Tyson gay and Galen Rupp at the same time anymore, just because they had a point like you got to stop this. But some of the, you know, we'll get these nasty. We'll get an email, someone will fire off an email, just like cussing us out. And like you said in the comments, you comment back like, Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that. Right? Oh, I didn't mean it. Like you're a real person. Like, we lose our humanity on some of these forums and the sort of stuff and I love forums in general, but the bad side of them are, you know, we're constantly trying to improve it
but Yeah, I don't want to say not every comment or does that obviously it's but those are the ones you remember. Right? Yeah, for sure. And because the more comments, but the one that's saying can go is a kiss ass to Alberto Salazar. That's the one I remember.
Yeah, Shame on those people. But I think it's also interesting because, like in the comments, or people have a view, Alberto, in general, they want it to be black and white, like, terrible, or great. But, I mean, Alberto probably knows this and his outlook on the world, like, you know, he's a Christian guy, like, we're all sinners. We're all Fudd, maybe not to the same extent. And I that's where I come back to this mad heart sort of criticism, or this can go kissed up the Nike, like one, you said, there's a distinction between Nike and Alberto. And if you're having access to those guys, you're going to present their story, their quotes, so some people may not want to hear that to begin with, like, it's part of doing your job. I always found you to be fair. I'm like what sees? And we still don't know, like, Alberto, in some ways is my arch nemesis. After all these years. I have no proof that he doped any athletes, none. You know, I'm more, for sure. more suspicious, probably someone like Mary Slaney. Maybe she was doing that on her own. If but my best bet is that he rubs some testosterone cream on Galen secretly, you know, because that I think he should be banned from the sport. I think he broke the rules. I don't know if you'd agree with that, like the testosterone experiment, I think technically violates the sada rules. But we still don't know what happened at the end of the day.
Yeah, I mean, the point of the Assad rules seem to me to be to, to keep athletes from cheating, right. I mean, that's, that's the goal. You want to punish cheaters. And as you say, there's no evidence that's been presented that any of his athletes cheated, and rubbing a little bit of testosterone cream on cream on. Alex Salazar is not doping an athlete. I mean, I know Alex was a pretty good High School athlete, I believe he played football a little bit at Oregon too. But when that happened, he was not a competitive athlete. And when Steve Magnus did that test in it, and again, it gets into what's a competitive athlete, I guess he was still running wreck, road races or whatever, but he wasn't doping an athlete. And so we get into what what was his motivation for doing these things? And then that's subjective, right? Well, he was doing this because he wanted to cheat or he was doing this because he was running independent to whatever whatever motivation he had for doing it. Um, it wasn't doping an athlete. And my view of what USADA did was they, like many others in the running community are convinced he's been cheating systematically for years and getting away with it. So they, and I've written this, it was sort of like Al Capone, right? They knew Al Capone was breaking laws, but what did they nailing for was tax evasion. Right? It wasn't killing other people or bootlegging, or running a numbers racket on the Chicago Southside or whatever it was, it was for for tax evasion. And, and here USADA got Alberto for something. But it certainly wasn't what we were led to believe that they were investigating for or any of the sensational allegations that were made against him. Yeah,
I think for a lot of people, it's a it's a, some people will just either be banned or not. And that's all I need. But for myself, it's like, it's not the best ending.
It's like, Robert, I mean, any time robots on the podcast, he's always like, like, he was clamoring for him to be banned for years. And then he actually comes out. He's like, I'm not satisfied with this outcome. So now he complains that he is banned. And
well, I thought you guys were very fair in what you wrote about the band two, I forget exactly what you said it, but I think it's along the lines of what I said about him operating in the gray area too much, and you get too close to the line. Sometimes you step over it. And again, that's how I view what happened. But I agree, I don't see anything. Genius in terms of doping, dealing up to the gills or having him high on EPO or whatever. And then when he won races that they're to me, there's no evidence to that.
Yeah, I would be shocked if Alberta was supplying them, EPO, or anything like that. But I do think look, I mean, he didn't just break one rule, he broke three. And you can argue whether he stepped over the line by law or just a little to me, I don't have a lot of sympathy for him. But CES is going to make that decision. They're going to reevaluate the whole thing. So anyway, enough on Alberto, we talked plenty about him. I'm curious about like, the future track and field journalists. I mean, the Oregonian. That's one of the few papers nationwide that actually employs a track and field correspondent and granted you didn't cover the sport the whole year round and probably wouldn't make sense for newspaper to have that but because you know, you had college football, there's other sports, but is someone going to be replacing you at the Oregonian. Will they still have a track and field correspondent moving forward? No, I
don't suspect they will. One of the problems with newspaper journalism is dwindling staff sizes and dwindling resources? When I started doing this, our staff was probably twice the size, maybe even more than twice the size it is now. It makes less and less sense for us to, to cover the sport on a regular basis. For several reasons, one, like I say the resources can probably be spent better in other ways. And in terms of the readership we get, at least locally, I, I think what I was able to do is expand beyond local readership. So I think people based on emails I was getting, were reading my track coverage around the country and in some cases around the world. But I don't know how that pencils out economically for the Oregonian, really. So I, I would suspect they won't, I think for a while, hopefully through 2022 they will continue to use me on a freelance basis for when the big events come and in the period leading up to that. But you know, that the University of Oregon itself is become more difficult to cover. I think when vinland Anna came in, he saw a real need and and a reason for them to be cooperative with the local media and he basically through the doors open to, to me and to Curtis Anderson, who was at that time that registered guards beat writer. And we had pretty good unfettered access, which was great. And the other thing he did was he had home meet, he saw a big believer in trying to reestablish Eugene is tracktown USA. And they, they would have as many as five home meets during the College Track season. I don't know of any other. There might be some but I'm not aware of other track programs that have that many home meets at least ones who are at Oregon's level. So there was a lot to write about it, it's become more difficult now. Robert Johnson, not the Robert Johnson from Let's run, but Oregon's track coach is, I think a very good coach. But he sees less need for the media. They under his direction. They've taken a very defensible decision to send their athletes to where they'll get the best competition, which means often not as many home meets. And he's he's much more he runs his program much more like a lot of college football coaches now major college football coaches where the the media access is restricted. It's it's he hasn't done away with it. We can still talk to athletes, but it's much more difficult than it was when Liliana was the coach. So there's probably less reason for us to to cover track on a day in day out basis the
way I did. Well, you mentioned then, and we hadn't mentioned on the podcast, but being an Oregon sort of then Alberto Phil Knight, I think those are probably three of the biggest people in tracking to feel but there's this relationship, I assume between then and Phil, I don't know if you've any insight on that. But then and from an outsider's, 30,000 foot perspective is sort of the one guy getting things done and track and field in America, or at least he was. Do you think like, obviously he needed Nikes resources? Like do you know, give me insight into his relationship with Phil and what's been driving that and Phil was on board with it, or it's a mutual thing you think and now that Vince gone? Do you think he can continue these things outside and in Virginia? Or if they're between Nike? I mean, I have no idea. I'm just sort of spitballing here.
Yeah, you know, when Vin first came in, he was Nikes. guy. I mean, a, they wanted to resurrect the University of Oregon as a track and field power, and also a team that drew fans, that to me that that was very important. They wanted the University of Oregon to also be a distance program. Under Martin Smith, the previous coach, he was technically a very good coach. distances that not been as emphasized as Nike, like I actually think Alberto Salazar was a pretty key guy in this too. And I think Phil and Alberto engineered Martin Smith dismissal. They found a good place for him to land at Oklahoma and sort of got him out of the way. And then went out and tried to find somebody they thought could do all these things, bring back the distances, bring back that the track program at Oregon in a way that energize the home crowd and host big meats and they targeted learning. I think Lana was very happy where he was he was an administrator at Oberlin. He was tired of at that point in his life of the day to day grind of coaching. He wanted to get into administration. And so he found a good landing spot and they went out and got him I remember it was clear they were targeting from him from the start and they refused to say this And so I went out and deliberately tried to find other track coaches that met those lists of qualifications, which had clearly been tailored just for linnaean. And I remember, if you if you read the letter of the qualifications, Brooks Johnson fit that those qualifications. So I started throwing out names of other people, like Brooks Johnson, who would fit those qualifications just to force them to, to deal with that. And on top of that, Oregon has a law here that requires college head coaches, a college head coach and searches to at least interview one minority candidate. So they had to interview somebody like Brooks Johnson, so I maybe I, maybe I helped them by by locating him and saying he met the criteria. But it was clear they were gonna hire from the start. And it's, it's also clear in retrospect, he was the right guy, because he had the vision to provide what Nike wanted. Now. It's expensive, what he did, and Nike was putting up the money still is putting up the money or if not Nike, Phil Knight from from his personal funds. And that's an important distinction. Sometimes I think people conflate the two, nice been retired from day to day running of Nike for a while now. And he has an immense personal fortune, which he uses as he sees fit, he loves track and field and he loves Hayward field. So he chooses to spend his money there. But um, what then did took money, it took resources. And I think sometimes he might have over promised what he could deliver in, in a return. And I, I think that might have been most the case with the 2016 world Indoor Championships, which lantana landed for Portland at the Oregon Convention Center, you guys were there. And I thought they pulled it off really well. But I wasn't the guy count the bottom line. And I think those cost of those World Championships cost a lot of money. And in the end, I think they were left with a big shortfall much bigger than they had expected. And there's only one person that could make up for that. And that was Phil Knight. And I think he did. I mean, they paid their bills and all that. But I think that's when there maybe was a beginning of a little bit of a less enthusiastic support and in Beaverton for Vin Lananna. And so I think, going forward, Phil Knight, as evidenced by the fact he's built this palace of a track Stadium, and Eugene still wants to invest in track. But I also think he wants somebody who's maybe going to be more realistic about what, what something's going to cost and what the return will be.
And that's interesting, because I think some of the numbers yet didn't line up like they thought they would, but then still needed to get the outdoor world at that point. Right. So they still kind of probably had to work together. And they were still building this amazing. New Hayward field. So have you seen the new Hayward field? How excited should we be? I'm under the assumption there will be track gates next year. I guess even if there aren't fans, the media will be there. But hopefully fans as well, but like what can we look forward to? Assuming you've seen it?
I'm not seeing the inside only the outside. To my knowledge. The only people who have seen the inside are the University of Oregon track athletes, coaches, support people within the track program and selected VIP alumni. I don't think anybody else has, if anybody else has I don't know about it.
Well,
I'm looking forward to going I hope, you know, preclassic or Olympic trials, I guess NCAA is there next year as well. It's
going to be supposed to be no big question. What do you guys think? I, I'm very suspicious that these meats are gonna come off.
I, I can't I'm kind of optimistic. I think it's gonna happen. And I don't think they they might not be fans. But I think the Olympics are going to happen, because there's a lot of money involved there. And I think the therefore the Olympic trials, I mean, the US I think the US will probably try to send a team. I think they'll like if you're going to send a team, they got to pick it so I think they'll have a trials. We might not have fans there. NCR blaze i think is gonna happen because we've got a cross country schedule a cross country championship on the schedule, we've got an Indoor Championships on the schedule, I think maybe you see indoors get canceled, but I think outdoors, it's a little bit more easy to distance. I think that'll happen. preclassic I don't know about that. It's I guess it's not gonna be that much. It's like end of May and then the trials of middle of June. So they have the trials, they'll probably have pre in some form. I do. Yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic. We might not have fans but I do think I think we'll have a track season next year because we had it in Europe and assuming that Coronavirus I mean, I don't know what its gonna look like three weeks from now, let alone like, you know, six months from now, but assuming the US can get on control a little bit, I think they can stage meats in the same way that we had meats in Europe this summer.
Yeah, maybe. I know. The first time I took Coronavirus seriously for what it could do to the sports seasons in America was win last March when the I believe the teams were already in Albuquerque for the NCAA Indoor Championships. There were conference, basketball tournaments being played. And the Ivy League pulled the plug was the Ivy League. Because I was following the track thing. Closer maybe then the basketball but everybody had Oregon and the org within the Oregon TIF I just done a feature on one of the Oregon athletes, they thought they were going to compete, they went there to compete and even the two days before the meet thought they were going to compete. It was when the Ivy League pulled out that that that world changed and did an Ivy League just canceled the winter sports.
They did and yeah, I think well I that's why I'm I've been doing this feature this week about the NCAA indoor meat and the NCAA cross country championships, the schedule for the same weekend are they going to happen? And I've taught the Arkansas coaches Chris Buck nemat, lots harder, they're very much of the opinion, we are going to have an SEC championships at the very minimum. And they're also hosting NCAA is like we're gonna host it, we plant we're moving forward, it's gonna happen. But if you get conferences, saying we're gonna cancel into a sports and I think the Ivy League will not be the first sorry, will not be the last to make that announcement. At some point, you will have so many conferences have canceled that the meets the NCAA indoors is going to be canceled. And I wouldn't be surprised if we get to that point.
Yeah, I mean, they're trying to play college football now. Right. And it's just been a chaotic mess. I mean, the PAC 12 was the one that was supposedly had done it right. They they waited till the very end, they got all their testing protocols lined up, they were gonna test every day it was it was gonna be safe. They haven't they couldn't get through the first week. And I you know, if there's not a vaccine, and if that vaccine is not widely available, I don't know how you pull any of this stuff off.
Yeah, it's gonna be interesting. And the Ivy League ankles interesting, because like you said, They were the first to cancel. they canceled their conference basketball tournament first. And I was livid. I actually wrote the Yale assistant athletic director only because I couldn't find the athletic directors email. I was like, This is ridiculous. We're gonna have an NCAA Tournament next week, you guys will drag leads. I believe leaders think the very smart like if you guys know something more than like, this isn't consistent. But if you know something more, and we need to cancel everything, you need to get that out there. So I think they were ahead of the game.
So it was your fault, right? Because you wrote that then ideally, got it all out there.
I didn't think about that I'm responsible for everything been canceled. So I think they were right there. But actually, I think for the fall sports, they were actually wrong because they canceled our fall sports and it looks like now is we're getting later in the fall. Maybe not. But like, I would say, Oh, we've had football up until now. It's the schools that are starting right now. If you're starting football right now, it's we're having more issues now. Right? Like, the cross country season could pretty much almost be done right now. You could have had whatever soccer, most of the seasons would pretty much be done by November. They don't go that late in the season. So they blew the good window. And then they're like, Oh, no, we're gonna have indoor sports. And all along. I'm like, we're gonna have indoor sports with the flu and covid Good luck on that one. So who knows what's gonna happen indoors? But like, john, I'm pretty confident having Olympic trials. I'm pretty sure conference 11 Olympics. The fans and that stuff? I have no idea. Indoor Track. No idea. I'm, I'm generally very optimistic about this stuff. But like, what that means during COVID is constantly shifting.
Yeah, that's for sure.
Yeah. All right. Well, Ken, it's been a pleasure recapping your career, you know, thanks for making time for us today. And, you know, I'm glad to hear that you're hopefully going to be continuing in some respect, you know, freelancing with the ongoing I think it would be great to have you need to be at the Olympic trials. And World Championships in Eugene. I mean, it wouldn't be the same without can go there. So I appreciate that. Hopefully, we'll see that, but appreciate the time today.
And I stopped reading Let's run so I'm still gonna be a fan.
Or that you said you you stopped reading Yeah.
Wait, are you stopping? No,
I'm not I have not stopped.
Okay. Okay, good.
I refusing to commit to read the message boards though. I but I am going to read your front page.
Retirement like what's on tap? I think beforehand before the show you said just got back from the coast. Right. But like that was beautiful. What are you doing a week from today? I mean, are you figured out every day,
I subscribe to The New York Times. And one of the great pleasures is being able to sit and read it without thinking, God, I need to get going on work. And now I don't have that problem. Like I read the whole thing today. It was awesome. You know, before I would skim here, skim there, but there'd be a bunch of stuff that I couldn't get to. Maybe that maybe I'll get tired of that after a while, but not so far.
That's great. more time to read the New York Times and more time to read. Let's run calm. You heard it here.
