Episode 181 - Complete

Vinny Welsby1h 3min

Vinny Welsby

00:00

You're listening to the best value podcast episode 181 Fat liberation gone too far. misconceptions and mistakes. I'm your host Vinny Welsby. Let's do it

Vinny Welsby

00:27

Hello, welcome to this episode so nice to see ya. How's life? What's the crack? What's going on? Are you okay? I'm okay. Hey, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for last episode as be behaving as my therapists. Guess what? I feel so much better. So much better about this whole situation. Like there's this the shame that was just there just lingering like a bad smell. And a lot of it has been lifted. Just by sharing the story with you. So that's just what a life lesson What a life lesson. I know that probably most of you don't have a podcast that you can share your, your problems with. But perhaps if you are burdened by shame about something, perhaps if it feels good for you, or safe for you, sharing that with someone can be helpful. Shame cannot survive the light, remember? And yeah, also if you're like worried about me, or my mental health, I'm good. I'm fine. I'm good. I'm, you know, in a totally different situation. I live it back in Vancouver now, which is my happy place and have access to my friends. We're not in lockdown. And quarantine we I have my therapist that I talked to every three weeks like I have Dougie the dog. So don't you worry about me. Okay. Everything's good in my life. And obviously, I was sharing some shit times. But you know, we'll go through shit time. So, yeah. Okay, well, this episode I have been saving up because I've been collecting collecting things that I see on the internet. When people are criticizing fat liberation, the things that they are saying. And I've been collecting them to make an episode. And so these some of these episodes, it really takes it takes a take some some research and time to get because you know, you'll have an idea and you're like, Okay, well I need to collect, you know, I need to do the research or find the evidence or, or, you know, let's see what's what's going on in the world. And so yeah, I've collected I've done an episode kind of similar to this. I googled fat liberation. And I went on to YouTube, or YouTube is a worst for fat. Hey, honestly, YouTube is like, if you look at Fat liberation, or fat positive on YouTube, like 97% of the stuff that you see is all just absolute dogshit horrible, awful. I did an episode of what some of these people were saying in in their videos. And it was just non sensical. It was one of the one of the one of the videos was this guy saying, oh, people who subscribe to fat liberation, want to sleep with their clothes off in bed and want to do that with children and want to do that with children. They don't know. And it's like, What the fuck? Whites? What? Oh, no, because I'd seen one article about someone saying something somewhere. And they're just like, oh, wow, you know, fat liberationists sexual deviance and perverts. I mean, we, we are probably but you know, not in that way. Yeah. So so this is more kind of understanding what people believe about fat people fatness, and therefore, why they might have certain beliefs that are a little bit more kind of on the cusp. So these are the beliefs where you know someone might be well meaning and you know, say if you say to your your friend or whatever, your mum or whatever, oh, you know, I'm getting into fat liberation or anti diet or whatever. And they say, or doesn't that mean that you're encouraging people to glorify Oh word or something? And so kind of lows here. sort of the aggressively ridiculous out there notions, because it's easy for us to dismiss them. You know, like, I've known you know, since fat liberation, you know, first was documented in the 1960s. I have not yet seen anywhere that says, if you're fat liberationist Union muscles sleep naked and with your children and invite it's just not happened yet. I mean, yeah, who knows you can't say that. Maybe there is a document that I've yet to discover that says that, but I'm going to err on highly unlikely because that is not what fat liberation is. Okay, so let's talk about, by the way, I had COVID I had COVID. So that's why we're kind of little less, less on the podcast. bit of time on the podcast. But does my voice sound a little bit deeper and sexier? Thanks, COVID. No, it's probably not COVID. But it was okay. It was the first time I had COVID. And obviously, I didn't die. So Whoa, gay for me. Anyway, today, I want to tell you that just another idea. Hey, COVID. feel sorry for me. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about the core tenants of anti fat beliefs. Okay, so the core kind of the cornerstones of when someone is anti fat, the things that they are likely to believe and pray or believe the stuff that we do have have in the past belief, maybe still do believe maybe there's some kind of like, remnants in our brains where you're like, No, yeah, I do think that. So, and we're gonna talk about kind of, why, why this is me. This is me theorizing, right? And obviously, as a former former, the hardcore fat hater, I can remember like, what I was thinking, Okay, so first one is being fat is unhealthy. being unhealthy is bad, therefore, fat people are bad. So that idea that, you know, being fat is unhealthy is just stupid. Seems like, that's the kind of the biggest thing, right? And then underneath that, well, then unhealth means non health is bad, morally bad. And so fat people are bad because they are choosing to be unhealthy. So. So because of that our humanity is in question because by existing, we are bad. Therefore, what we say or the beliefs that we have, or the things that we support, or what we do in our life, all of that also must be bad. It's a shortcut to discount anything a fat person says because they have the ultimate ultimate quote, unquote, gotcha. And the gotcha is, but you're fat. So it doesn't count what you're saying, or you're feeling, you know, any joy, oh, goodness, doesn't count because you're fat, right? And I know that I felt like that about myself too. Like, it doesn't matter if I'm good at my job, or if I'm a nice person or whatever, because I'm fat. And you know, that kind of erases everything, right? Fat haters really kind of, well, you're fat. So it doesn't matter about who you are what you say. You have this fatal character flaw, and it's a character flaw, right? It's not a body type is a character flaw. According to many people, okay, next is fat people choose to be unhealthy. So, because of the portrayal of fatness in our society, we learn things about fat people. And one of those things is the idea that fat people have their fingers in their ears saying while a straw is in their mouth, I don't know how they're saying Lala while a straw is in the mouth too. But imagine stories and mouth sucking up or liquidated cheeseburger. You know, it's almost like that. Do you know that meme? You know, that meme is a cartoon, and it's a guy a cut, like it looks like a superhero or a captain or something. And he's wiping his sweaty brow as he tries to decide which button to press. Like, you know, you can imagine that one butter button is you know, launch the missiles and the other one is don't so that meme and it's it's almost like this is how I feel that fat hate is picture us that there are two buttons in front of us and we're the fat and sweaty person. And we're not sure which one to pick and the two buttons one says good health and the other says in bad health, plus a Twinkie, and we breathlessly slam the Twinkie one, because we're so uninterested in health and so desperate for a Twinkie, that we would forego choosing good health in order to embrace bad health and get a Twinkie.

Vinny Welsby

10:24

That's how I imagine that he is thinking about fat people. And so, you know, if you imagine that scenario, what you would think about that person is just like, disgust. You know, confusion is why they can't make the right decision. Like you'd worry want to, if you saw this play out, and you're watching it on the telly, you probably want to shout at the telly being like, don't hit the other one, hit that button, and then the person doesn't and you're like, oh, for fuck sake. And so that's how I feel that P that those who hate fat people or fatness our viewing fat people like just like, oh, for fuck sake, why did they do that? Why did they choose that? Why can't they control themselves. But the thing is, people have and should have body autonomy, right? And when the rest of society, other people, not fat people, when the rest of society who are not fat, exercise is body autonomy, autonomy, autonomy, often people don't have shit to say. And obviously, there's lots of examples where they do have shit to say. But most of the time, if people are exercising body autonomy, and it means that they could have worse health outcomes. Most of the time, if it lines with what we say is good and bad in society, people don't say shit, because they don't care about health, right? So say if someone drives a car, people are not saying, Oh, they're choosing to be unhealthy, because they're sick, because they could have a car accident, and they could be hurt and die, you're so unhealthy for driving a car, or if someone engages in sports. You know, people are not like, Oh, you're choosing to be unhealthy. You know, say if someone is going for a nice swim in the lake, they could drown. Oh, you're choosing to engage in bad, bad health. We only care about people's body autonomy, when we don't think they should be allowed to make decisions for themselves. And why shouldn't fat people have body autonomy? Because apparently, we always make the wrong decision. And we have no self control, we are unintelligent and incapable. And if that's what someone believes about fat folks, and it's easy to believe that we choose to be unhealthy, right? It's like a kind of like, a puzzle pieces fit together. If fat people are ignorant, and in denial, that it makes sense that we choose to be unhealthy. Fat, people will come fat and stay fat because they eat too much food and don't exercise or don't exercise enough. So something that is really comforting for me and for a lot of people is is certainty, right? is engaging in black and white thinking is knowing that if I do A, B, C, I'll be a good person. If I follow these rules, then I will achieve this result. If there's this input, then there will be this output. But the world is a lot more complicated than that. And that desire and that continuing to buy into black and white thinking is a manifestation of white supremacy culture. If you want to learn more about white supremacy, culture and how it manifests just Google white supremacy culture and you'll see the list of different things that we all engage in which are, which is not helpful, because the reality is that hardly anything in life is actually black and white. And that is true as well for human bodies. Even basic machines are more complicated than put this in and this thing will come out. There's so many different variables at play, and something as complicated as a human body. It's just not the reality for most people. And even if every single fat person was fat because they ate too much, quote, too much food and never exercised. That would still be our right as we should have body autonomy. But the thing is, that concept is a trope. It's a stereotype. We know that fatness is just a normal way to have a body and we have almost 100 years of data showing that eating less and exercising more doesn't make people thin in any reliable way. And we think about like most fat people in society do we think that most fat people in society, society would choose to stay fat, if they could just eat less and exercise more, and then permanently become a thin person, or temporarily become a vain person. Most people, as we know, engage in eating less and exercising more to try and attempt to become a thin person. Because living in societies of that person can be very, very difficult. For me, if I had the choice if someone said he can, you know, become a thin person or say a fat person, I'd stay a fat person. And there are many fat people who do choose to become fat, or to become fatter. They're probably the outliers. Not probably they are. If you think about, I would love to have the data of like, how many fat people have attempted to become thin? Not just how many people? Because we all know that many, most, most, especially women have attempted diets. But what percentage of fat people have have attempted diets? I'm sure that that info is somewhere, if you know, let me know. But because I think that the number is really high. So if it was a simple case of eat less exercise, more than most people in the world would be thin. Because other people know how egregious ly awful we treat fat people in society as fat people know, right, depending on what side you are, and depending on if you have other marginalized identities and, you know, right. Okay, so another belief that they have is that on rare occasions, very rare occasion, some fat people deserve pity, because they have an eating disorder, or other health condition that made them fat, but they are still disgusting, and should still lose weight. Right. So I don't know if you've ever, ever seen this or engaged in this yourself is that idea of being a good, Fatty, bad, fatty. And when you're deep in hating yourself, you will try to do display more good fatty characteristics, or behaviors. And sometimes you will do it to keep yourself safe because being a bad fatty in our society is not safe for for many people. And so what that might look like is saying, Oh, I'm fat, but I'm trying to lose weight, or I'm fat, but I only eat salads or I'm fat. But I you know, I'm an a marathon runner. And none of those things are bad, per se. But it's the idea of of a fat person being more palatable if they engage in good fatty behaviors. And so another trope is no fault fatty, of the good, Fatty, you know, so if you're a no fault, Fatty, then you're quote better than a fat person who has no quote, excuse for being fat. And this is definitely something that I have believed in the past. I remember sitting in the car with my then boyfriend and saying to him, You know what, I've worked it out. I've worked it out, sir. All fat people have eating disorders. I remember telling him all fat people have eating disorders. And he was like, Ah, I didn't know about that. And I was like, No, think about it. The reason that I'm fat is because, and I was saying that I ate too much food. I was not. I was restricting all of my life. I was restricting food. Anyway, so but I really had a skewed perspective of how much food I should eat. Also, it wouldn't make sense in my mind that I would see fat people in my life eating what I would deem as a normal amount of food. And because in my mind, fat people obviously eat so much food. That Okay, well, they must be eating food in private, therefore, they must have an eating disorder. Literally, I was just like, I know it. I know it. I know. All of these fat people are fat because they are secretly eating lots of food. Which is totally just No, wrong. Wrong. Because could it possibly be it be at the time that fat people just eat food the same way that street size people eat food? Yes. Yes. But I couldn't. I couldn't reconcile that in my brain. Like it just didn't make sense. It couldn't possibly be that fat people were just like the rest of us, you know, and me I was fat at the time too. And even if fatness was an eating disorder, or all fat people do have eating disorders As someone living with an eating disorder or illness deserve our love and care. Yeah.

Vinny Welsby

20:10

Yeah. But are there times that we should be withholding love and care? And in what, what are those circumstances? Who Who gets to decide who gets to decide that? You know, if you have something that that quote causes you to be fat, or that, you know, this is all like, we don't really know, a lot of times what comes first and what causes what an you know? So, you know, I'm saying causes in quotation marks. Even if you have something that causes fatness. Does that mean that you're okay, but then what if someone else says, I don't believe it does cause fatness? Well, then are you not okay? Like is like who gets his side? Right? Are we going to have a questionnaire when someone comes into the hospital, where we ask them every choice that they have ever made in life, and the choices that we personally don't like, according to our politics, I mean that they go to the bad patient Ward, and are denied or delayed treatment. Because that's totalitarianism or fascism or authoritarianism. And, you know, I'm saying that like, go to the bad patient Ward, we're kind of doing that a lot of times, because when we're looking at people, we're making a judgement, right? We all do it, right? We make judgments about who they are. And when people are accessing care, healthcare providers are humans, and they also will be making judgments. And that's why things like when black folks have babies, their mortality rate is sky high compared to white people who deliver babies. That's why when we had bird flu, h one n one, and fat people were dying at a higher rates. And people were saying what's because they're fat. And then afterwards, they looked at the actual what was going on, and it turned out that fat people were getting treatment provided to them later when they were in hospital. And that delay meant that they had worse outcomes. And so that bias that the healthcare providers had, well, fat people have worse outcomes. So should we be giving them the treatment and therefore delaying treatment, therefore, they have bad outcomes, therefore, we were right, that people have worse outcomes. So all of this is just you know, who gets to decide if someone is is worthy? Do we want to have a society that has this pity meter where someone that deserves pity? It will be doled out to them and someone who doesn't then they did you know, they're they're rejected from society because we don't like that they have made a choice, that means that they are less healthy. Okay, next fat people deny any claims that fatness is linked with poor health outcomes. So this is this is just not accurate, right. So, in fact, liberationist have pointed out that we have a correlation with fatness and certain conditions, and therefore, let's explore what the cause could be. So we asked for more inquiry. So, for example, historically, women have been more likely to die in car crashes. Now, is that because women are inherently unhealthy and weak? Or can we investigate a little bit more and find out that it's because crash test dummies were made it as the size and weight and a dimension of men, and that seat belts were designed for men's bodies? Right So currently, where we're at with science around fatness is that fat people may have worse outcomes in certain areas. We don't know why. Therefore, we're just going to blame the fatness. So it's like any other you know, example say with this example of the women are more likely to die in a car crash. Imagine if they stopped there and said, it's because they're women. Women, women just you know, they're bad drivers. That's why they're dying more in car crashes. They're just their bodies are not meant to be traveling in boxes at 70 miles per hour. You know, it's like those uh, remember when it was a bicycles came about and it was like women shouldn't be going on there because they're going to have orgasms and you know, have fun and stuff and women's bodies can't travel that speed because of that, you know, they're there. It ovaries would fly out through their eyeballs or something. Right? And so so we can, you know, have more inquiry and discoveries, and let's see what could be going on. And so, where most people are out is that there's a correlation, therefore, it means that fatness is the cause. But fat liberation has says there's a correlation. And let's continue exploring what the cause could be. Of any from the future here. Just wanted to add in here, when I say let's continue to explore what the cause could be. I'm referring to the idea that it's actually fat shaming, it's actually Fat people not being getting not getting evidence based care. It's the fact that fat folks are more likely to have dieted, which causes poor health outcomes. Not let's continue to belabor the point, that fat people might have different outcomes. And it's due to having fat tissue when we don't have that evidence. Kind of like, you know, the, you know, the whole story about vaccines and autism, and how it's one dodgy British doctor who made up a study, it's watch documentary, if you haven't seen it before, go watch a documentary on it. There's loads of things on YouTube. And so because of that, there was the whole big movement of anti Vax movement. And so then because of that, there had to be many, many, many, many, many, many studies to debunk. This guy's claims. He lost his license, by the way, so that's satisfying. He ended up marrying Elle Macpherson. Remember to remember I think that's huge to be married. Married model anyway. He lives in America now. Anyway. sidetrack. So, you know, so much time was time was wasted in so many people die because they were exploring, like, Do vaccines cause autism? When autism? It like? Would you rather have a dead child or a child with autism? I mean, to most of us, it's pretty simple question, right? And that position of autism is this absolutely horrific thing. This just, you know, thing that you got, you know, please, I'd rather just have a child that's not vaccinated. And this the same with this, like fatness, that this is it's this awful thing. And so we must keep studying fatness to understand how we can eradicate it, versus studying the bias around it, and the mistruths around it. And that type of stuff. So when I was yeah, when I was really listening to this section, I was like, I kind of sounds like I'm saying, we need to keep studying, like how terrible fatness is, but in we've literally got a bajillion studies. About that, and so it's probably time to move on. And as well, because there's no you know, I I've said, I've said many times, there's correlation with fat bodies and poor health outcomes. But there's also so much so much that shows us that there are so many protective benefits of fatness and fat people having better outcomes, and fat people living longer. I feel like I might have belaboured the point that yeah, we know that fat people can be sick for the fat haters so that they know that I know that fat people can be sick. I think I believe we did a little bit too much in this episode. So that people can be sick and they can be healthy, and they can be anywhere in between. And also, all of that doesn't mean that the fat person is is morally better or worse, because of their health status. So anyway, editing Vini out. Fat people get sick and die just like thin people. Fat people are at a higher risk for certain conditions. But we also know that fat people are protected from other conditions. And studies show that fat people can live longer than quote normal weight people. It's almost like human bodies are more complex and have different outcomes. And we can't just rely on BMI weird that right weird. So

Vinny Welsby

29:35

do we know want to be more curious to help understand how to better support health in all populations? Do we only want to offer health to people who are already healthy? Okay, so next one is fat people need to become thin people in order to be healthy and gain any amount of respect. So no, no one needs to change their bodies in order to gain respect. We can pursue health at our current size, and there's no rely have a way to make fat bodies into thin bodies. You know, it's a classic. Oh, there's a bully on the playground that says that, you know, so and so is ugly because they have ginger hair. Would you say to that child Whoa, bet you better fucking dye your hair go and dye your hair to blonde or something or Bill Brown or whatever, so that the bully can chill the fuck out. No, you educate the person to say you educate the bully but like hey, stop being a fucking dick. So why should have fat people have to become thin people in order to help people stop treating us like shit. We shouldn't. Okay, shaming fat people will help them become thin, or make them rightly embarrassed and contrite, which is good. Fat people must be ashamed of their fatness. Right, so, so people who don't like fat, fat nose or fat folks, they're like, Well, fine. If you must stay fat, you better be sorry about it, you better be embarrassed, you better be apologetic. So it's kind of the thought of if we can't control your body, we will try and control your mind and how you view yourself. And the way that we internalize that is if we can't be small in our bodies, we must keep our spirits small. We must be apologetic that we cannot or will not attempt to become a good thin person. If we quote choose this body, then we must apologize to society by having good behavior and a good attitude. Because accepting our bodies as they are may encourage other fat people to rise up and not like shaped shame take a hold of them and we can't have that. That is a scary concept like for people who are are historically marginalized. Not letting shame take a hold of them is scary because we like our fat people subservient and penitence. If fat people claim power, that means in the mind of a fat hater, they will want to take the fat haters power. And they will feel like I don't want to cede my power, as I know how badly society treats those with less power. And again, that's white supremacy, thinking of power as a finite thing, not marginalizing someone else doesn't mean then that they have to marginalize you in order for them to be equal to you. It just doesn't work like that. Right? But if you've had if you have power, the idea that someone could rise up and say, I'm not listening to your bullshit I'm going to take power for myself would be scary, right? And you'd be like, I don't want that to happen. So I'm going to do everything I can to continue with the narrative that those people are bad. All right, next is hating fatness is not about discrimination, but about concern for public health. So imagine, I'm a fat hater, I might say, if I deny that I have bias it means and I'm a good person. If I care about health, I am a good person. Admitting I may have bias shakes me to the core of my being, and is not something I could admit to because I believe bias means that I'm less worthy. I struggle with believing my worth. So let's not consider that I have bias. Because I'm doing good in the world by hating fatness and encouraging health and my view of health as a body size is backed by almost everyone I know. It's good to be cruel to be kind. And I'm thinking about the people who are who are liberal and who are fat haters, who really identify as being a good person. And the thing is, having bias doesn't make us a bad person, it just makes us have a makes us makes it it just means that we've grown up in a society. And we have a human brain. And our brain has developed shortcuts to help us make quick decisions and survive in society. And some of those things are helpful. And some of those things are not so helpful, right? It doesn't mean anything about you if you have bias and decide, just fucking love being biased. And I'm not going to change that than me. And maybe that's not so great. But the thing is most of our biases absolutely unconscious. And if we are working to be better members of society, and there's a huge area where we have really egregious bias that could be very unsettling for people to realize that. You'd probably just be like, No, it's not. It's not bias. It's about health. And caring about health is a good thing, right? It's what people might believe. Okay, finally, fat people are delusional complainers, and a joke Because I deny the humanity of fat people, anything they say is not evidence based or to be listened to. Their cries for equality are a joke when there are, quote, better, or more worthy causes. And anyway, all this could be easily solved if they become smaller. Fat discrimination isn't real people who, who people just don't like fat people because they are lazy, greedy. That's not bias or discrimination. That's just the truth. So that's for someone who is that would be someone who is a little bit more kind of on the right wing of political beliefs of denying the humanity of fat people and just laughing at Fat struggles. And or not believing them. This, you know, it's there's a name of the of one argument, I can't remember what it is, which is you shouldn't focus on this thing that interests you. Because there's there's better things to focus on. Like, you shouldn't focus it focus on fat liberation, because there are hungry children in Africa. That was how many times were we told that as as children? And did that help us? Did that was that was that helpful? No. And so shaming people for the thing that interests them and gets them excited, and is something that they're passionate about, it's not helpful. So something that I've been thinking about, I've been doing this course called calling in talking about canceled culture and, and you know how to be better at calling in or calling out or whatever, by law, Loretta J. Ross, it's really good. And something that she teaches is she says, what we teach about that in this class, you can share, but the stories that people share about their personal stuff, don't share. So one of these concepts I'm gonna share is spheres of influence. And so the my ability to influence people who were listening to the show is probably quite high, because you you're probably interested in, in fat liberation, you're probably already on the journey. You might like me, and so we share a lot of the same beliefs and political ideologies and stuff. And so my sphere of influence with maybe you, or maybe my friends, or maybe my family, or other people that love me, would be great. And so it's that idea of preaching to the choir. So if I want to make an impact in the world, it's great that we talk to the people around us. But if we think about, you know, expanding out into a circle, what about those people who are kind of, you know, maybe they share 80% of the same beliefs that we do, or 50%? And how much influence can we have over them? So say, maybe a family member would be in the 50%, right? Because maybe they say, Well, I love you, but I don't agree about the whole fat thing. That sphere of influence that you have, you still have influence and so you can still maybe influence them to into being kinder to fat people. Or maybe not. But the thing is, when someone is like 95%, out of you know, they've only got 5%, we only share 5% of similar beliefs. Trying to get them to admit the fact people are okay, or should be alive or should exist, like basic things. They're just like, Nah, I don't think so. We might be wasting our time at trying to get those people to come along on the journey with us. So the stuff in here is thinking about, you know, trying to understand the people that maybe only share a tiny amount of our beliefs up to people who are we're sharing a lot of the same beliefs, but maybe they're on the fence. Right? And so these are the people who could go either way and be like, fat liberation is bullshit, because they heard they heard a video about something and they're like, Well, I heard XYZ. So let's, let's quickly go over those those things. So that you can if you want to, don't have to, if you're having a conversation with someone that and they say, oh XYZ you can say

Vinny Welsby

39:36

not so much. Okay, so first thing, fat liberation. we demonize people seeking health. Wrong, wrong, in fact, in fact, we want access to health for more people, fat people, right. And so if people are seeking health Good For You love it. If you're not seeking house, good for you, whatever works for you, right? So it's just just incorrect. Okay, any thought of weight loss, or any focus on weight loss is disordered. By the way, these are direct accusations from people on the internet. I'm not gonna tell you. But their critiques of fat liberation. And so any thought of weight loss or any focus on weight loss is disordered. If you've listened to the show for a while, you realize what if even in this episode I mentioned, the most people have or do or currently attempting to become thinner. In fact, I think it's weird if people don't have that experience that like these were unicorns not weird as in, it's bad, but it's just so different. And it's so normal to think I want to be thinner. And guess what doesn't mean you're a bad person just means that you have a brain, and your brain is trying to do the best in the world, and help you feel safe, and help you be safe. And so if someone told me that they were attempting to lose weight, or they would like to be smaller. Yeah. That sounds pretty normal. That sounds like a lot of people. And that doesn't sound to me that I wouldn't say my brain wouldn't go to Oh, you have a disorder? Oh, there's something wrong with you. It to me, it just makes sense. You know, it's like saying, you know, I'm walking out in in the rain and snow, and I reach and put on a waterproof jacket. Yeah. Obviously. Does that mean that you're bad? Because you don't want to feel the rain in the snow? No, it means that you're a human being, okay? Fat people can never be unhealthy. No, wrong. We don't think that fat people are these superhuman can never be unhealthy. And never get sick, can never die. We just want people to treat that people less like pieces of shit. It's just so outrageous. Pursuing weight loss makes you a bad person, no nip NIRP that we engage in black and white thinking, listen, every mute movement is made up of people, right? And people, ah, this is going to be weird. We're all different, right? And so there are absolutely people in the fat liberation movement that would engage in black and white thinking. Because we're people and people are on everyone's on a different place in their journey and doing different things to you know, and we all have different mental health and we all have different life stories and, and so there are absolutely people in the fat liberation community that engage in black and white thinking, if that doesn't feel good for you, for me, it doesn't feel good. I don't like that kind of, you know, this good, this bad type of thing. That's not something that I would engage in. In every movement, there's going to be people who have more maybe stern beliefs or, or the way their style of communication is maybe a little bit more passionate, or a way that we wouldn't necessarily communicate or a way that doesn't feel good for us. And that's okay. Just because someone is in a certain movement, if you don't like them, you don't like their style of communicating, that's fine. You don't know You don't have to follow them or whatever. But the thing is, there's people in all different types of movement and there's dickheads in all types of movement and there's good people in all types of movement movements. Wow, not all types of movement is a good people. I don't know. I am getting in black and white thinking. I'm thinking the most extreme different types of movements anyway. There's gonna be decades everywhere as one from the same. So next, we all believe the same things and if you don't think the same, then you're a bad person. So because I don't want to engage in black and white thinking, for me, this isn't true. There of course are more people in there of course, are some people in the fat liberation community that are more authoritarian and they're more kind of like, you have to do this. I don't engage with that because I'm it's doesn't feel good for me. Something that Loretta J Ross said, which is our course that I'm taking, is when people think the same and move in the same direction. That's a cult. When people think many different ideas and move in one direction that's a movement. So if we're saying if you have if you want to belong to fat liberation, you Have to do ABC. And if you don't, then you are going to be, you know, you're going to be dead to me. And if you don't speak this way, and if you don't support these people, if you don't donate to this charity, if you don't do this, that's not the way the we're gonna get people to be excited to come along, in any movement with us. My way of doing things, is hoping that kindness and, and, and joy and, and love will bring people along. And I you know, I didn't come up with that, right? Like, some people have been doing that for forever. And unlearning the idea that we have to bully and shame people to come along on this journey. So, as with every movement, there's gonna be people, people who say you don't believe the same as me, then you're dead to me. Do you want to fuck with those people? I don't know. Maybe that feels good to you. Maybe not whatever. But I mean, I don't find it helpful. So for example, I got I put on a post on Facebook and it was an old post. And in that post, I use the word fat phobia. I generally don't tend to use fat fiber anymore. I tend to use anti fat bias. But someone put into the comments. You're not allowed to use fat phobia anymore. Because your fat friend, your fat friend has a podcast and it's famous fat liberationist. Your fat friend said you're not allowed to use fat phobia anymore. And it was a thin person. It was just like every other and some fat liberation is say, hey, let's use anti fatness. Because fat phobia is ablest. Because phobia assumes that there is a mental health condition there and fat people just anti fat people just hate fat people. But in my mind, yes, absolutely. And also, a lot of people use the word fat phobia. And so these are people who are on our side, right? These are people who are on our side. So do we want to crucify someone because they use a word, which is, you know, that was maybe tweaked in, you know, recently? And be like, well, actually, Oh, do we want to it's like preaching to the choir? Or do we want to make spend more of our efforts? On those people who have? Who are, you know, in our spheres of influence, maybe a little less, maybe they're using the O word. And you can say, hey, maybe that's a little bit more harmful? Yeah. So anyway, anyway, and so imagine if it was like, That person said, oh, you should use fat phobia. And then they're like, you're a terrible person. They didn't say this. But you know, kind of, you're a terrible person. And because you don't use that word. If you don't use anti fat bias, then you don't know anything. And you've got kind of contributed anything to the movement. And you need to be counseled and whatever. And, you know, that's how some people will perceive a comment like that. They'll perceive it as you're not welcome. But again, everyone, in fact, liberation, we're all different. Okay, next, if you you should only eat unhealthy food, quote, unhealthy food, and you shouldn't eat, quote, healthy food, even if you like it. So that we tell people that if they a salad, they're a bad fat person, because they should only be eating things that we perceive as unhealthy. That's not true. At all. We want to force people to fuck us or force people to be fat themselves. That's not true. I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't like fat people. Are you kidding? I don't care if other people have fat or not. You write whatever. It's called to have different types of bodies in the world. The goal of fat liberation is to make everyone fat. No. It's just not using fat lib as an excuse to be greedy or lazy. No. And you know, if we think about everything that we talked about before, about what people think about fat fat folks and how all that is based on stereotypes, you know, the whole idea of greedy or lazy that we hate another one is that we hate straight size people. No,

Vinny Welsby

49:28

I'm sure there are fat people that hate thin people. But you know, probably like a handful of them. Because I mean shit. There's so many dumb people in the world we love in vivo, right? We are sex are thin people, then people are everywhere. Then people thin people haven't necessarily harmed or harmed us. It's society. And maybe thin people have been the ones to perpetuate it but you know, it's just this is just not accurate that we hate thin people. that exercise is bad. No. If you want to engage in exercise great, if you don't scrape we would love it that we can all engage in exercise if we choose to. Next toxic positivity, that we have to love every aspect of being fat to be fat positive. Because there are there some aspects of being fat there are not super fun. Just like there are things about thin being thin that are not super fun or great or uncomfortable. So it's okay to be not blissed out on every single aspect of fatness and still enjoy your fat body. So yeah, a lot of this is just like black and white thinking. Right. Right, right, right. Right. So in case you like what Okay, well, you said a lot of like, what it is and what it's not. What actually is fat liberation. I have a post on my Instagram that just knocks us out in a few words. A fat liberation is a social justice movement created to increase the acceptance of fat bodies and seeks to ensure fat people have equal rights and access a straight size people. So nefarious, so nefarious. Yeah, I made that post because someone, someone sent me an email. They watched a video of me saying that I liked being fat. And they emailed me saying How dare you say small bodies are not attractive? Because I was like, Oh, I love you know that. I like saying the word. The phrase waves and honey, I like the waves and honey. And I was like, Well, I didn't I did not say that thin bodies are unattractive. Like unless, unless I was unconscious. And like, I know, there's no way that I would say that, because I don't believe that. But what they heard was something totally different that they drew conclusions. If I like my fatness, then therefore I must hate thin people. Therefore I must be, you know, desire thin people to become fat or desire, the well be rid of thin people. No, now, and so a lot of people will say, Well, this whole thing has just gone too far. body positivity or whatever fat liberation, I won't say that. They'll say body positivity is gone too far. We're just letting fat people be fat. And, and, you know, it's the idea of fat liberation should only be for the very smallest fat people should be only for white fat people, non disabled fat people, fat people in normative bodies, basically, fat liberation is for the most marginalized people. And we're going to bring along or everyone else along to write. And so what what makes people say that is because they see very fat people living in society. And they say those people don't deserve acceptance or kindness, because they've taken it too far. So I'm wondering your message is this is a good message, you know, not not trying to be rude message. But I know this is something that a lot of people have thought and have have tried to ask, but they like, they just maybe don't use the best words. So I thought that this was this was good, because I think a lot of people might be thinking this and you might have people in your life who might say this to you. So, hi, Vinny, I was wondering what your thoughts are on, everybody is beautiful. You can be healthy at any size, etc. which I do agree with. But then I questioned myself with my thoughts on that when I see people on TV that are so large, they can't get out of bed, or wipe their own bum, etc. So my question, and this is genuine curiosity. If I should word it differently, please tell me how is where does body positivity end and just plain poor health? Begin? what point are you quote too large or past the point of body positivity on my own on my own self love journey, and have been raised with some gnarly diet, culture, and fat shaming in my family. I'm just trying to see what this side of the world is all about. Thanks. So I reply, hello, name. Thanks for your message. So I don't prescribe to body positivity community as it stands at the moment which said It has young, thin, white women and says love your roles. What I subscribe to is fat liberation. Fat liberation says health should be accessible to everyone. Not that everyone can be healthy. Health is not possible for many folks, for many reasons. That's what people get wrong about Health at Every Size. So Health at Every Size doesn't mean people can be healthy at Every Size. It means that health should be accessible to people at any size. At every size, it's not denying that fat people can be unhealthy. It's saying no matter your size, you should be able to access treatment and engage in health promoting behaviors, or engage in the world. One thing about one thing to know about the depictions of super fat folks on TV is that it deeply that it's deeply dehumanizing. Making their lives seem like a freak show and stripping them of their humanity. If someone is super fat, do they not also deserve access to care? Of course, the answer is yes. So that means there is no one quote too large or past the point of body positivity. I meant to say fat liberation. I think to learn is stripping away health from worth, and unlearning the awful things we have been taught about people who are just quote too fat. So the question is, who is too fat to be cared for? To be a part of our society to be loved? And the answer is no one in the person responded, oh, I absolutely love that answer. That totally clears things up in my head. Thanks so much. Yeah, cuz I think I feel like people think that, you know, there's a point where should we people feel like there's a point should we quote, encourage someone to accept their body? At what weight? Should we should we switch from? Helping them accept their body to shaming their body? And what weight? Is that? Right? Again, black and white thinking, what weights do we go from? You go girl to, you need to get surgery and lose weight. And there's a there's a cut off. For many people, there's a cut off, saying, Well, you know, someone who's size 1820. Like, they're thinking what they think in their head is, well, they might not be unhealthy. That's what it is, is okay, well, maybe they can lose weight if they tried. You know, they're on the cusp of being acceptable to me. But someone who is very fat, and someone who is disabled. Well, they're just too quite quote, too far gone. They're just so committed to being unhealthy. This is how people view it. This is not the truth, right? And when we have those beliefs, and then we watch shows, like my 600 pound life, which are horrendous, please, if you're watching those shows, I know that stuff is entertaining. But if you do want to unlearn anti fatness, then stopping watching those shows would probably be helpful for you get again, you might love that love that show, you know, but really, it's only showing fat people in a very one dimensional way that they're, they're sad. They're losers. They're greedy, they're, they're subhuman. They're pathetic. They're disgusting. They're unhealthy. They're about to die. So no matter and so no wonder you, you we society would have a cut off point of when it's gone too far. Because is it right to extend kindness to people of all sizes? And in many people's view, up to a point, and then after the point, that same value that we have of being kind switches to cruelty, because we think the cruelty is going to work? I don't know. I don't know.

Vinny Welsby

59:21

Because clearly cruelty is, quote, worked to make these people thin and make anyone thin. Maybe it's worked for some people temporarily. Will has, you know, a lot of people have engaged in dieting and then obviously diets don't work. But it's kind of interesting, isn't it? And you know, it's like asking yourself like, Who do we think that we should have body autonomy? Hopefully you feel like that people that fat folks should have body autonomy, right. And who, who should we extend kind In this too, and who should have access to the world. So hopefully the next time you see a headline like, fat liberation has gone too far. You can read between the lines and decide that you are deciding to if you want to extend, extend grace and empathy to everyone, if that feels okay for you, and not say that there's a cut off, where someone loses their humanity, because that's what a lot of these these these posts and and content is saying, right? They go in with a ton of frickin stereotypes, and just just eye rolling misconceptions. And then make a point about how, like this one article that I was looking at from The Guardian was saying that fat pride is wrong, because we're making people fat. And so like, listen to this episode, and you can like, well, that's not true. That's not true. That's not true. And also, even if it was, you know, even if it was that fat people are people happen to be fatter? Can we really trace it to the fat liberation movement? And also, people having bigger bodies? Is that necessarily a bad thing? Considering we're living the longest we've ever lived? Yeah, so I'm gonna make a post with the with the things and so if there's any of this, like, if you want to round up, then go check out Instagram, there'll be a post up within the week or something. And next episode, I'm thinking because it's the all it's I see all day season is many, many religious and cultural holidays between November and January. And therefore many of us will be spending time with other humans. And because of that, I was going to do another episode on how to deal with family or people at the holidays. And then it will come out beginning of December, or whatever, sometime in December. Sound good? Sound good. All right, well, then, well, I'll see you in the next episode. If you enjoyed today's episode, and you would like to support more content, then go to KO fi, it'll be in the confi I'm gonna call it kofi, Ko fi. And you can for $5 Get the size diversity Resource Guide. There's other tiers of membership that if you'd like you can do a one off donation. Or you can do a monthly donation. If we get to a certain amount of donations, and we'll be able to get more episodes out. Currently we have enough donations for one to two episodes a month. I would love to be able to do four episodes a month like I was previously doing, but we would need your support to be able to do that. So if you appreciate the work that we're doing here at first fatty then consider going to Kofi KOF i.com. Forward slash first fatty or go to the shownotes to find that link. And thank you for being here on I'll see you in the next episode. Stay FERS fatty See you in a while I'm again Tiger bone

Unknown Speaker

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perfect

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