145. How to ditch traditional marketing in favor of relationship building w/ Tristan Katz

8:31PM Sep 20, 2022

Speakers:

Brooke Monaghan

Tristan Katz

Keywords:

people

marketing

work

tristan

instagram

conversation

feel

listening

talk

relationship

posting

podcast

person

happening

business

money

speak

hear

dm

workshop

Just this morning, I was listening to this brilliant podcast episode. And the person who was being interviewed asked this amazing question. And I thought I need to stop what I'm doing right now and write down my responses to this question and implement it in my business. But of course I didn't, because that's how it goes, when you're listening to podcasts, you're doing something else, you hear these great ideas, you think, Oh, I'm gonna do that. And then you just forget to do it. This is why I keep talking about my free self guided workshop, the pathway to building a sustainable values aligned, impactful business, you can find it at bit.li/no business rules, it's going to give you a notion template so that you can actually sit down and identify where you are on this pathway, and then answer a very specific reflection questions for that specific part of the journey, which will help you uncover things that you can actually start to implement in your business. So if you've been listening to this show, you've been thinking, Oh, my gosh, this is great. I need to do some of these things. But you need a container to actually sit down and work through some of it and figure out what is relevant for you head to a bit.li/no business rules take the free self guided workshop. You're listening to transcend your dichotomy, the podcast where we break the rules that say we have to leave ourselves behind in pursuit of success. I'm Brooke Monaghan and I created the show for purpose driven business owners. Together, we'll talk about how to go for your goals have an impact, all while honoring yourself, your desires and your values.

Today, we are continuing our conversation about marketing and specifically how you can do marketing differently. I asked my great friend friend of the podcast to bet on before Tristan cats to come on to talk to us about this because I think that they are a incredible example of someone who first of all, is an expert in marketing and teaches marketing. Second of all, does not themselves use the or teach the traditional marketing tactics. And third has shown that you can build a successful business without doing those things. So often with people that I work with one of the thing that's causing them the most resistance is that they don't want to use those quote unquote, traditional marketing tactics. But it's almost like they have a hard time even believing that there is another way. Tristan, I think is just an incredible example of somebody who is really like walking the walk in prioritizing relationships and just telling the truth and showing that we can do this and you can do this and still build a successful business. Tristan Katz, whose pronouns are they in them is a writer, digital strategist and an equity inclusion facilitator who specializes in education and consulting centered around queer identity and trans awareness and with an anti oppression and intersectional lens, along with Justice focused marketing programs for yoga and wellness professionals, Tristan was named one of yoga Journal's 2021 game changers. So, so excited to have them on the show again, and they were awarded the reclamation ventures grant in spring of 2021, to expand their offerings and dedicate time to writing their first book, titled forthcoming, yay, we need this book, through their podcast articles, digital resources, and workshops, trusted in support those who seek to grow their work while staying aligned with the practices of equity, justice, and inclusivity. You're going to hear kinda like a friend chat today. But in this conversation, we're going to talk about how you can prioritize relationships and why you don't need to be out there constantly focusing on sales in order to make money. This is a true transcend your dichotomy conversation, because I think the whole thrust of this conversation is you don't have to choose between being in alignment with your values or marketing in a way that feels good and or having a successful business. Tristan breaks down why that is, but also shares things that I think are a really great example of how they're actually doing things differently in their business. So I hope that you enjoyed this episode. And if you do, make sure to go and find Tristan, I am linking to a couple of things in the show notes for how you can work with them. And there are two things that you're going to find there. One is their their yoga, social justice and marketing group mentorship program, it's a six month learning space to support folks and growing their work while staying committed to social change, justice and equity. You don't have to just be a yoga teacher. The program has always evolving and shifting and as we mentioned in this episode, if you're finding that you keep hearing things like this, like you keep hearing, oh, I can show up in alignment with my values and speak my mind and take a stand and I don't have to always be focusing on sales, but there's like a disconnect with the actual implementation. I think that there's going to be some deep ass work happening in this mentorship program. And it might be just the space for you. The other one is Tristan is program equity and action, which I highly recommend. I took a similar program with Tristan, not that long ago. And it was really impactful for me and really impactful for my family and just my confidence and being able to show up for this work. So the equity in action is a long form training, and it is there to support space holders and embodying queer competency and trans inclusion. So if you feel like that's an area that you could use some support in, you know, feeling really solid and confident in your ability to hold space for others across lines of difference, then I highly recommend that both of the programs are linked in the show notes, go and find them. And let's get into this conversation with Tristan. Tristan, my friend, I'm so happy to see your face. Hi.

Hi. Likewise, it's nice to be back on on the podcast. Pod. We're just gonna call it that from now on. This is the podcast.

Well, I feel like in our text exchanges, it's always like, either you and Lauren are talking about my podcast, or I'm talking about your podcast. And so we can just say the podcast and then through context clues, we know which one we're talking about. Plus,

I put all the fucking episodes on my feed you put three on your feet. So it's like it's just one one pod party.

It is one pod party. Yeah, I'm happy to be back with the pod party.

Yes, we're continuing a conversation about marketing. We've had a few episodes about marketing. And as I was, this wasn't really planned. It was just like, I recorded an episode on marketing. And then I realized, oh, I have two interviews with guests about marketing. Okay, we're doing marketing, Tristan, marketing.

I'm happy to be here to talk marketing. And I listened to the first one you did, which was just you. And I was like, I almost sent us a series of text messages and held myself back like no, just listen to the whole episode. Like I wanted to know who you were talking about. But anyways, I'm really glad to be continuing the marketing conversation with you. Yes. Yeah, relational marketing. Okay, so here are my thoughts about that. And I always say like, I feel like dominant marketing conversation comes from a very different lens, and one that is really rooted in transaction. And we see that through like incessant sales pitches and calls to action, the narrative that's like, you gotta be posting every day and creating content all the time. And then like some of the things you talked about on the previous conversation, or the previous episode you did on your own, which was like, having the countdown timer that like, isn't actually true to anything, or, like claiming things that are absolutely false and manipulative. And it's all rooted in getting people's money or getting people in the quote doors. And I really have found that marketing can actually be approached from a very different perspective, which is more in line with an anti capitalist anti oppression lens, which is about focusing on relationship building over transaction. And when we focus on the relationship building part, I feel it often feels better. First of all, I have found and witness that it often feels better, it feels less, less phony, less disingenuous. And these are some of the things I hear from people all the time, which is like, I don't know how to grow my work, because it inherently feels icky. It inherently feels narcissistic, it feels like I'm performing, it feels like I'm being fake. And I don't think we need to be fake in our marketing. I don't think we need to dial it in, I don't need, I don't think we need to lie. I don't think we need to be dishonest about where we're at. In fact, I think when we approach it from a genuine, authentic place and get honest about where we're at when like, maybe our capacity shifts, and we have to cancel something and refund people's money. Like that's a beautiful thing to normalize, especially at this point in time, you know, three years into the pandemic and this huge, like, collective shift that we're in around like the climate and the planet and social justice, it's like, can we just get honest, that we're all kind of struggling in different ways, given lots of different factors, including socio economic considerations and our identities. So I think that when we get real about those things, and approach marketing through that lens and the relationship lens and being true to ourselves in where we're at lens, it not only feels better, but I think it's more impactful. And I think I'll just pause there

Yeah, cuz I have like 45 things to say so let's do it. I'm trying to write them down before they leave my brain. Um, yeah, I am listening to you talk about like just being honest and when What immediately is coming up for me is that when I am working with clients who are feeling like they need to say things that just the right way or convince people, what we inevitably uncover is they're being dishonest in two ways. One is the dishonesty about like trying to so I'll get I'll use myself as an example, there was a period of time when I first started coaching, where I felt like I needed to be the coach who focused on helping people make money, right. And eventually, I realized, I don't actually need to continue to tie this, I don't need to keep justifying why the work that I do later down the line leads to more money, I don't actually need to do that, what I instead need to do is stop focusing on the thing that I think I need to like contort myself, or like put myself into a box to fit and be dishonest about that, and instead, tell the truth about the power of the work that I do do. And so if you're being, at least in my experience, and I would love to know, if you see this come up to it's almost like, with clients that I've seen this scene kind of fall into this, they're also not being honest about how fucking impactful the things that they do really, really well. how impactful it is, like, it's almost like they're holding back on what they really want to say, and then saying the thing that they think they're supposed to say, and it's like, no, no, don't be dishonest about that thing. Instead, be dead honest about how powerful you are, when you like, stay squarely in the realm of what you do really well.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, absolutely. I love that you framed it that way. Because I think that's really important for us to understand. And I talk about this a lot, like, bring what you're already doing what in your work naturally into your marketing, like just say the things teach it, teach it in your marketing. And people say to me, Well, if I teach it in on Instagram, for example, in a series of posts or whatever, then I'm quote, giving my whatever away for free the service, the labor, the thing that people should be paying for? And I'm, I'm always like, no, no, you're giving people a taste of the thing that you do. But when they start entering actual space with you, and relationship with you, through coaching, for example, they're gonna get a whole other experience that's so much more powerful and rich and nuanced and impactful than just consuming your content on Instagram. Like, there's always more to give when you show up in that, like actual coaching relationship, for example. And I think this really goes back to like, this performance thing, and this perfection thing that we're kind of that's kind of underlying all of this, which I think is so it's so toxic, and it's so like predatory and it's so dominant, in most what I see to be mainstream marketing conversations, like, say the right thing, figure out the pain points, and then make sure you put that pain point language into your sales copy. And I just think it's all like garbage. And I think this whole paradigm that's like, sell more reach six figures like how to boost your following in 30 days, all of that sets us up to feel really disconnected from the gifts that we naturally have to offer. And I think that when we instead shift to this other lens that like, I'm just gonna say the thing that's on my mind right now, or I'm gonna say the thing that's lighting me up, or I'm gonna say the thing that landed with the client, or I'm gonna say the thing that's pissing me off, that feels way more true to who we are. And then we're representing ourselves again, in a genuine way. So folks actually know what they're going to, or more of what they're going to get when they enter into a relationship with us. But if we're just constantly running the hamster wheel of trying to get the thing, right, or trying to say the thing that's going to, you know, whatever, get people in the doors, I just, I think that cuts us off from from, like, our gifts as you're talking about, like as you're referring to, and I think we all have strengths and skills and gifts and magic to offer people and there's something going on in our brains do to you know, list all the things like childhood trauma, you know, systemic and social, political, cultural injustice, privilege, and oppression and marginalization and like the list just goes on capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy, colonialism, like all of these things that are living in our culture that lead us to feel that we don't have gifts, that we can't trust ourselves that we can't trust that we have value to share in the work that we do. And obviously this is a different conversation for like, let's just say like if you're a white sis hat, man who's able bodied and middle to upper class like maybe they don't have as much as that self doubt stuff, right and Like the whole conversation that, that that group of people typically apply for jobs, even if they're not totally qualified for them, right? Okay, so we're seeing a pattern here that like a lot of us feel deep mistrust of our gifts. Yep. And so then we feel and I'm generalizing the we right now. So I understand if like, folks don't identify with this, but a lot of us might then feel that we have to play some sort of game in order to show that we have value. And I think too, what comes up for me is then the fear that when I get somebody into a meeting, like let's say, they do hire me to consult them or something, and we get into a one on one meeting, then I have to prove, quote, unquote, I have to, quote, deliver, I have to, quote, give them their money's worth, and not just trust that maybe that conversation is going to be meaningful, even if I don't try so hard to make it. Like clearly meaningful, there's just there's so much garbage to sort through that I see coming into our marketing in ways that cuts us off from actually just getting our work out into the world and saying what we do and saying that we have something to offer and saying it more than once in a way that's effective, you know? Yeah,

yeah. I mean, and for anybody who's listening who's like, like, I want to be very clear that like, what Tristan is saying is not, don't grow your audience, don't try to get all of the clients into your program, don't try to close sales, don't try to do that instead, do this thing, because like, Tristan has lots of people buying their stuff, showing up for their programs coming to anything that they run, like hiring them, listening to their podcast, following them on Instagram, if that's what you care about. Tristan actually has, like, kind of a lot of Instagram followers, like, it's, it's not Yeah, like, it's, it's not like you have to choose very in line with the theme of the show. Like, we're not saying choose between money and success, or this other thing, it's actually that you don't need to be that or do that, in order to have these things, there's many different ways to get to the same outcome. And also, I would say that if you try to do it, the DIS the more dishonest way, if you try to do it, the quote unquote, right way, say the right thing, I don't actually think you're gonna get the outcome that you want, I think you're gonna find yourself in a situation where you feel like you have to prove even more, I think you find yourself in situations where people come through the door to work with you, and they don't get what they thought they were gonna get. Because you were not fully transparent about who you are, versus when people can see who you actually are. And they are very clear on what you do and don't do. Generally, I have found they stick around like, an and it works out pretty well. Yeah,

I agree. I agree. And I think, you know, this is not what I was taught. And I've talked about this a little bit in another episode, I think that we did together on this podcast on the podcast. But I feel like I was taught like, don't say certain things, right. And this came through really quickly, when I first started my Instagram account, to create my business, or to market my business. One of the first things I posted within the first few months was something about white supremacy. And my father who's also, you know, a mentor, and a boss, and someone that I learned a lot from and with for for more than a decade was like, you're talking about white supremacy on your professional Instagram page, like, you know, and, you know, he was he's of a different generation. And he's, I think he that he's worried about self, he's worried about his own safety, which makes sense. And I'm of a different generation. And while I am worried about my own safety, I'm also worried about the state of our world, and don't want to remain quiet in order to, quote keep things safe or and or comfortable in a way that is like actually a false narrative in the first place. Because like, remaining quiet doesn't actually keep things safe or comfortable. It's perpetuating part of the problem, right? And so I, you know, anyways, all of that to say that I was taught, stay quiet about things that are uncomfortable for people to hear. Stay quiet about certain parts of yourself and your identity and your experience, because you don't want to make quote people uncomfortable because you don't want to make yourself vulnerable to like violent attacks or abuse or trolls or whatever. And I don't a feel like I have that luxury given certain parts of my identities. Like as a trans person, I'm coming out as a trans person all the time. Like, end of story, like so what am I going to not talk about my Jewish identity or white supremacy or the I mean, just the list goes on, right like and so I don't feel like I have the luxury to stay silent. I also feel like that time is over. Like we can't be silent about things that are we're passionate about or that we're struggling with, or that we're that are harmful to other people. Oh, and I also think, you know, this goes back to like, to me, the conversation about branding is another one that's like really frickin garbage. And like most people think that branding is like, gotta get the quote, right logo and the quote, perfect color palette and the quote, perfect font, and then everything will work. And I can launch my fill in the blank into the world and create my marketing content. And I think that's garbage. Like I think our brand is actually like our values and our voice and our personality and what we care about, and how we show up in our work and then the world. And if we're not sharing that, then we're again, like, where's the relationship building, right? And it's more like the transactional manipulative thing, like I can get the right colors, the right font, the right logo, the right business name, and then I'll be perfect. And then people will buy what I'm selling. And I think that that is just so harmful. And I think that we I would like us to be having a conversation about this relationship focused marketing and branding, so that we can actually show up and get the thing done in a way that feels good. Instead of feeling like we're trying to just get people's money, like, who wants to run their business that way? Like, Can't we do something different? That's what you talk about on this podcast. And that's

why there's so much fucking cognitive dissonance, yes. Because if you are, like, not motivated by just the money, if you think that money, if you see all of the issues in the world that are being like, perpetuated by people with a shitload of money, then don't be surprised when you are bumping up against major shit in your business, when the way that you're running your business is do the right things to make the money. It's not what motivates you. So it's not going to be sustainable long term. And at some point, you're going to have to cut that shit out. Like it's not, it's not going to last it is going to like, stop you in your tracks. At least that's what I see happen all the time, people who are, who see no issue with the way that our financial systems work and stuff, don't have an issue, running their business that way, and making all of the money, it's always people who see the problems with it, and yet, are still trying to do it the way that they were taught by like the the, you know, dominant, like marketing, you know, conversation, who are now in a situation where it's like, well, yeah, no wonder why you don't know where to go from here. Because you kind of painted yourself into a corner where you now in order to make money, have to ditch your values. And that's gonna fuck you over every day of the week.

Yeah, I think the thing that's coming up for me is the, as I'm hearing you share what you just shared. In a similar vein, like, I hear some folks that you got to be posting every day. Or like, You got to send out an email a week to your newsletters, or you got to have like an email newsletter or funnel lead magnet situation like, and I just think, especially with creating content on a regular basis, I understand that part of the perspective. And the argument is exercising that content creation, muscle and learning wit and like the more we do it, the more easy it becomes. But at the same time, when we're constantly shutting ourselves shutting ourselves. And we're like I should be posting every day should be sending out a newsletter every week. How are we like, we can't be expected to be constantly creating content, because we're inherently going to fail and feel like fuck ups in the process, because we're not getting it done because we're exhausted and overextending ourselves. We're not sure what to say anymore. And like, I just think that that is one of the things I've tried to do in my own work with my business is like take in the information like okay, marketing, quote, experts say, these are the steps. These are the shoulds what actually do I have the capacity for? Yes, or what actually do I want to do? I remember somebody saying to me, you should put a lead magnet so that your newsletter subscribers get a free fill in the blank. And I was like, I don't want to like I just want people to subscribe because they want to hear from me and like I don't want to have to tell them that once they subscribe, they'll get something for free. I'm not saying that's not a valuable marketing approach. I know it works for a lot of people I just didn't want to do it like and I just think we I would like to have the conversation in the marketing world about what feels good, like what actually feels right for us to do or offer or create like maybe Instagram is not your jam as you talk about all the time. And if you're struggling with that, then I just feel like that's the conversation I want to be having like what else can we do apart from Instagram? Why do we have to quote? Why do we quote have to be on Instagram or quote have to play the algorithm game. If we're obsessed with playing the algorithm game, then like, are we actually feeling good about what we're doing, and I want to feel good about the work I put out into the world, whether it's marketing content, or anything else, I want to feel good. I want to feel proud. I want to feel like it's being a value and service to people. I want to feel like people are getting something out of it, whether they come into the workshop or the program or not, like, I want to make a difference. And with my voice and my platform, and my presence, and to me, that's good marketing. And it has nothing to do with like, getting people's money like that comes later as like a byproduct. That's not my main goal. Yeah, I don't I don't know. But yes, I do need. I do need people to pay me for my work and my labor. So that's part of it. But I also want people to just like, hear what I'm saying, when I'm speaking out about something that matters to me, whether they pay me or not. So

yeah, and I think that what you're saying saying is, actually, there's one way of looking at it, which is, well, I need to make money. So I can't do that Tristan, right. That's not what Tristan saying, because that needs money, too. There's another way to look at it. Which is to say, the thing that motivates me most in the work that I do is not the money. Yes, I need the money. But I trust that if I focus on these other things that really motivate me and are really important to me, I know the money will come. Yeah, that's really fucking hard. And also, you're investing a whole bunch of time and energy and other things in your business. It's also really fucking hard to build a high converting funnel. But that's not stopping anyone. So

totally, totally. And like that trust thing is ongoing. Like, it's not like, Great, now I'm at a place of trust. I'm good, like, everything is gonna be fine. No, I think that's a practice that's like, and I'm not great at it. I mean, I wake up, I just had this experience this morning, where I was like, I'm not getting to my desk until 11am. I'm, quote, losing money. That's what my brain said, my brain said, literally, if I want to pay for therapy, and health, like support in the coming months, I have to be working more. That's what my brain said this morning. And my brain said that sleeping in and taking care of myself and being in my joy is going to interfere with my ability to pay for my therapy. And I'm like, wait, I mean, yes. And is that true? Or is that scarcity, mindset and fear and trauma and trauma? That's like, Maybe mine but also like, other generations, that's carrying on into my body? And, and also Yeah, it's hard to be alive right now. Let's see, it's capitalism is fucking scary. And like, rent prices are ridiculous. And like, I don't know how we're supposed to live in this. So yeah, it's all of it.

Yeah, I saw like a meme or something the other day, and it was like, what life feels like in 2022. And it was like a cartoon of someone just like sitting in the grass. And then the next frame was a bird flies up and just goes, that'll be $30.

It was, like, that's exactly what it feels like. I

mean, I actually recently needed to go through and then I'm actually going to get to all of the things that I've been writing down that I want to actually talk to you about, but but I had to go through recently, I had I have my numbers in bed, I'm always looking at in my business and okay, this is what I need to get to, in order to make ends meet versus this is what I need to get to, to kind of have a little bit more of a cushion and to have, you know, to do these things and to give back in these ways. I had to go through and redo them the other day, because I realized the amount of money that I needed three years ago has changed. Yeah, I need like inflation is real. Um, yeah. Yeah. So it is scary. But yeah, I was when I was listening to you talk about you know, I you take in the marketing information and then you think like, Okay, what do I have the capacity for right now, the other thing that I was thinking that I am always trying to do, and that I think you're a really great example of is hearing like people's arguments for why you quote unquote, should do certain things in your business. And then kind of like, I kind of listened to the line of reasoning and then I tried to get creative about how can I get there a different way. So the I think a really good example of this is like this whole know like and trust thing that anyone who's taken any sort of marketing anything has I'm sure heard, you need to make people know like, and trust you people are not going to buy from you unless they know like and trust you to which I say yeah, probably true. And also, I don't know why you think that the easiest way to do that is to write good copy.

It seems like a much easier way to make people know like and trust He was to have a relationship with them. And literally, like I said, You just did this email earlier to be like, This is what I want to talk about is like, let's talk about know, like and trust. Because I think it's so like so many people know, like, and trust trust and cats has nothing to do. I copy, maybe your copy, but like not because you're sitting down being like, how do I make people know, like, me?

What do I have to say to make it just seem so much easier to just be like, they're gonna know, like, and trust you if you have a real human conversation with them, if you show some interest in supporting them before you ask them to support you, if you actually check in with them. And it's not just a I'm gonna like, if it's an actual fucking relationship. That's what I'm describing here.

Yes, yes. And I'm so glad that you listed that in the bullet points for today's conversation, because it is like the know like and trust thing is something I feel like I'm a, I don't know, I guess I'm an anti know, like, and trust person, because like, I bring it into the work that I teach on marketing, I'm constantly like, if you listen to people out there who are, quote, marketing experts, you will hear them tell you to build the know, like and trust factor. And I think, again, like a lot of those conversations are really phony and manipulative leaning. And I'd much rather build the quote, know, like, and trust factor from a genuine place from a non attachment non striving place. And to me, that looks like showing up and talking about things that I care about, rather than what I think people want to hear. Or like, maybe it's showing up and talking about things that I see landing with my my clients and students, rather than trying to tell people what they should care about, or what they should want to hear, right. Um, I think it's about again, like it just comes back to paying attention and checking in. And I feel like half the time when I put out, quote, marketing content, like a lot of the time, I'm not putting any sales pitches there. I'm not like Lincoln bio call to action. Sometimes I'm just like, saying a thing that I need to say. And I was saying this the other day to a group mentorship program that I run, where I was like, sometimes I think I'm using my Instagram as a place to discharge and maybe that's not altogether healthy. But I do it with boundaries. So like, Isn't it fine, like, I'm not like discharging on Instagram, what I meant sharing in my therapy that week, there was a very different, like conversation happening with my therapist, you know. But when I see something that's pissing me off, or when I see in particular, like, one of the things that like, you know, bothers me to no end is when I feel like trans people aren't being seen or represented, or when especially non binary people are being invisible alized or misrepresented or unrepresented? Or whatever it might be. And I just like, How can I insert my voice into the conversation? Like, that's always my question is like, is there a conversation happening collectively, that's missing something that I can speak to based on my own lived experience, and it doesn't have to be related to a workshop, it doesn't have to be related to a program or an offering, or a Lincoln bio Call to Action situation. Sometimes it's just me sharing my perspective. And then people get a sense of who I am and what I care about. And that leads to the relationship and the quote, know, like, and trust factor, but the know like, and trust factor isn't my main motivation.

Again, it's a byproduct. Yes, yeah. It's just like gonna happen. Yes, if you're in,

if you care about what you're doing, and you show that care to people through how you take up space, right?

Yeah. And also, like, I don't know, I'm just gonna say this. And we can cut it if you want me to cut it. But I'll say it to you, because we're here talking about it. And if we leave it, then anybody who listened to my podcast episode, which at this point will be like three episodes ago, which we referenced at the top of this, like stop marketing to the assholes of your industry, I

think I called it.

I think that there's also a difference in the way that you whether you call it discharging or whatever, in your marketing, because of the fact that you are here, in many cases to help people do better. Do you know what I mean?

I do. I think I'm, I'm just trying to take that in. Because I know that you're right, I know that it's true. Sometimes it feels a little savory, or like, like, I know, so I can help like, I can save X, Y and Z. And I just want to check myself on that because I know that that can be really problematic, but I do feel like I think the other thing that people are reflecting back to me that I'm also trying to receive is that I'm, I'm humble. And like I say when I don't know something, which is also not something that our dominant culture teaches us to do. I'd say when I don't know something, I asked other people for their opinions and perspectives before I assumed to know like the truth with a capital T. Like, I'm open to feedback, I'm open to somebody telling me I'm wrong, or that I'm missing something. And I feel like, then yes, like I want I mean, again, this goes back to like, I, do I want to make money. Yes, I have to, I have to pay my bills. And I just want to make a difference. And like, I'm wanting to make a difference since I was a kid. And I kind of think we, most of us do, like, even if we're doing different types of work, like, aren't we doing it because we want to improve or better or contribute meaningfully or, or help people in some way. And I just feel like, if I'm coming from that lens, to the marketing, landscape and creation process, then I can show up and teach through my marketing, Be of service through my marketing, create conversations, be a part of conversations, create relationships, through my marketing, and again, like the know, like and trust factor thing will come as a byproduct that financial stability, I hope will come as a byproduct like the gigs will come. But the purpose isn't get people's money, get people in the door. The purpose for me is, can we work together to make change?

Yeah. And I think that in your instance, also, like people need to hear you. Like people need to hear you, even if it's just your experience of a thing. It's important. And also, you get to do whatever the fuck you want. So that's the other piece like, and that goes for any like, that goes for all of us. Right? And so like, Yeah, I mean, I hope it was obvious. But like, you get to like, take your, whatever your platform is, on the internet, and use it the way you want. So way you want to use it.

Yeah, and it doesn't have to be Lincoln bio all the time. Like, I think that that's another like, I am almost like, Oh, this is a, this is a book or this is a workshop, or this is a PDF, I don't know. But it's like, the top 10 things that you don't need to do.

link in your bio to an opt in. And opt in is just why you don't need a link in your bio, and then they get automatically unsubscribe from your email list. Just getting

we know it's like, all these things that we're told we quote need to do, it's like, I don't think we need to do any of those things. I think we need to find balance, and we need to find ease. And we need to center like time away from screens and like those things. And you talk about this a lot, which is made a huge impact on me. But like, the more you show up to create space for yourself, the more the creativity, and the lightbulb moments and the like, oh, I want to do this next will come but if we're not making that space for ourselves, whether it's like working out walking to the beach, sitting outside in the grass for $30. Like, whatever it is, like how are we supposed to be in the generative creative alive, present moment flow of being entrepreneurs or solopreneurs or being in enjoying our work? And I was just talking to my partner yesterday about this about, like, Sure, here we are following this non traditional entrepreneurship path, like, like neither one of us have had linear trajectories, and you know, and and, and we, neither one of us, like, got the degree and then got the career and now we're in the career and I feel like a lot of people in our generation are having this non linear experience that is much more expansive and winding and full of like, weird segways that, like, don't directly inform what we're doing but indirectly inform what we're doing. And to me if we're not, like, are we Kelly, Nicole Palmer is someone I want to bring in right now because I think I've heard her say, if we're not like are we working to live or are we living to work? Yeah, no, and that's something I think about a lot and something that was not modeled for me what was modeled for me was work to live rather Yeah, wait work to live on like, Oh, no. Be I want to I want to not and this is something you and I have been talking about in our text thread with Lauren is like, I feel like since COVID started especially but even before COVID Because I was so scared of being on my own professionally and economically financially. I feel like I became obsessed with work and my whole life was work and my life part was secondary to my work. apart. And I feel like in the last six to eight months, in part because I've fallen in love. I'm like, oh shit, like work has to be second to life like I don't like I don't it's not even a choice right now because of this love joy thing that's happening for me. But it's also like I'm constantly burnt out. I'm constantly exhausted and have been for years, like, how do I interrupt that cycle? Well, I have to go back to living and working second, and it's not easy. But I have to keep doing it because I'm tired. And because my life is calling me to be in a different place now. Yeah.

I was just smiling so big as you're talking about falling in love, but I'm not going to derail the conference. Personal life Tristan. So people who are listening, I already know that people are asking themselves this question because I have the privilege of having people who trust me enough to ask me this question. And no one ever wants to ask it because they feel like it's dumb. And it's not POB? Like, what do you mean, like build relationships? Like how how. And I think that on the one hand, I just want to say it's if you are thinking that you're probably overthinking it, it's probably way more simple than you're giving yourself credit for. And also, it probably looks very different, depending on the type of relationship that you're trying to build like, or like the type of relationship that you're trying to build, or just like, sometimes your there's just going to be relationships there because you're just living your fucking life, doing things that you care about being involved in a community. And it just happens. And it's not something that you even really need to like, be super intentional about. I'm curious if you have thoughts on that. And like, what it looks like for you to like, build relationships on like, like with maybe an organization versus like individuals versus like, I think that you have a relationship where there's no way, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no way that you're like, DMing back and forth with all like, I don't know, like how many Instagram followers you have, like 8000 Instagram followers or something like that. Right. But like you still have a relationship with them, because of just the way that you approach the work that you do.

Right? Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. And it is funny, because sometimes I will watch who like the number of people that are watching my Instagram stories. And I'll be like, literally out loud, are all these people. Like, I do not have a relationship with everybody on Instagram, I and a few things coming to mind around this topic. One, I'm not just posting explicit marketing content, like I don't just post about my workshops, my trainings, my classes, my programs, I don't just post calls to action. I don't just post sales pitches. And I think that's one of the things that I get most upset about is when I see people just posting sales pitches, like it feels gross to me. And I feel again, like they're just trying to sell me and that it's transactional. And when I think about relationship focused marketing, I go back to like, I want to share things that light me up, I want to share parts of my life that like, again, with boundaries, but I do think vulnerability is a part of any relationship. And I am constantly in constant inquiry about what it looks like, and what it means in this messy world of social media to be vulnerable and have boundaries, right? Like people on Instagram who are following me don't know the nitty gritty of all aspects of my life. But I am comfortable sharing little snippets bits and pieces when it feels relevant when it feels meaningful to me when it feels true. And I think, you know, the other thing I want to say is this other like marketing happens in so many different ways. This conversation is pretty focused on Instagram and social media because that is where I take up most of my marketing space and the thing that lights me up the most I actually quite enjoy being on Instagram.

But also like I think that you a lot of your business. I think correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah comes from like, people like you're connecting with those people on Instagram, but it's not like that's the primary connector.

I don't know. I mean, I don't know. QUESTION But I see you're

just very like You're like involved in a lot of like organizations and giving like doing workshops and like you're in rooms with people and like people are finding you through and you are also in like zoom calls like just catching up with people like it's impossible. It's not like so like while it might sound like or we keep coming back to Instagram. I want to highlight for anybody who's listening, that what Tristan is doing goes whoo way beyond just the

Instagram. Yes, yes. And this is exactly what I was about to say, which is the thing that has blown my mind the most is that marketing happens, like, whenever we're, like all the time, like, what I mean by that is I remember pre COVID, I went to a couple of in person workshops with my teacher, colleague, friend, Michelle, Cassandra Johnson. And we were like chit chatting in small groups, and people were introducing themselves to one another. And there was like, what do you do? What line of work are you in, you know, and I shared a little bit where people were coming up to me, like, oh, I follow you on Instagram, or whatever. And I was like, oh, so because I'm showing up at this thing that I care about that I want to be a part of that I'm where I'm learning something. I'm also building relationships and networking. And that's that networking piece. Again, I feel like it's something that we forget about when it comes to Instagram, because Instagram has become or has been this like passive consumption lurking thing. And people feel uncomfortable reaching out to people that they quote, don't know. But I always think of Instagram is like a conference where everybody's just like, I'm doing this, I'm doing this and like, at a conference, you don't just I would say I don't go to a conference, nothing has been the one in forever, but like, I wouldn't go to one and sit in the back of the room and not talk to anybody, like I know. And I'd, if I were this kind of person, I would bring my fancy business cards, and I'd shake people's hands. And, you know, like, I would try to make connections and actually network with people so that I left the conference feeling like relationships were built. And I do feel like anytime I show up at a training, a webinar or a panel conversation, and I'm like a, I'm just like a student, like I want to be studying all the time, forever and ever. And so I go to a lot of stuff just to learn. And anytime I'm there, there are people there who are like sending me a DM, like Good to see you. I follow you on Instagram or, you know, Tristan, like, there's friends there. There's community there, oftentimes, and I haven't been altogether good at this. But I've had several people who have reached out to me after seeing me in a workshop or training where I'm on the receiving end, I'm on the student end. And just in the way that I spoke or shared or asked a question, like, they DM me on Instagram, and they're like, I want to know you. And I'm not saying that to be like, I'm so fancy. People want to know me. Like people want to build relationships. We're all hungry for friendship and community, especially this year, especially in 2022, or even the last few years. And I just feel like that community building part, I'm not saying like every single one of these people who I've met in workshops or in panels, like, they're all my students now. But then we have this community where we're like sharing each other's work and supporting each other and link stuff comes up and I have people I can turn to because I've I have networked, I've built these relationships with people that I trust. And it's not just about selling them on something and not everybody wants to build online community. And I get that and it does sometimes feel weird to have friends all over the world who I've never met in person. But I also frickin love it and like that, to me that's it's all it all interweaves with with my work becomes a place where again, my work doesn't feel like I'm having to, like just sludge trudge, you know, whatever the word is through stuff, because I actually enjoy showing up for the things that I quote, have to do in order to keep the wheel turning of income, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Okay, a couple of things that I want to like point to, in the words of Lauren Kay Roberts highlight of what you said, the first thing is, and he wrote this down. And I only want to say this, because I know for a fact that there's going to be people listening, who I just want to clarify this for, right. And you can disagree with me on this idea of like, just posting sales pitches. I would encourage you if you're listening, not to fixate on just what you post on Instagram, and we have this conversation and instead look at your marketing as a whole. I don't think Tristan that what you're saying is, if Instagram is not your primary way of marketing, and you have all these other things that you're doing and then once a month you post about something that you're doing on there and it always happens to have a sales pitch in it that like it will gross. But I do think if you look at your marketing as a whole and it's like, every single thing that you do is an ask. And there's never a contribution. There's never an offer of support. Right there's never anything else other than Ah, then that's where there's going to be an issue. Yes, I

completely agree. Thank you for like going back to this and clarifying or adding this thought I completely agree. I think the thing that I am really trying to stress is that I want to be of service in my marketing. Yeah. And I think that when we orient towards being of service, whatever that means, for us individually, it will feel better, it will feel more real and genuine and aligned for us. And it will feel more real, genuine and aligned for the people who are receiving it.

And by the way, it fucking works. Yes. Like, it's not like, you're not going to get anything back from it. And one of the things that I've started because I am not a natural relationship person, I'm actually a independent to the point that it hurts me. Like I hate. I'm very like, I'm on my own. I'm always the person who wants to act like I don't need anybody so that nobody can reject me. This was a life lesson for me. Yeah. And something that I've tried to really work on over the past year is like, the getting over that, because first of all, it's going to make my life better. Because things are a lot fucking easier when you don't think that you need to do everything on your own. But also realizing that like these people who I admire from a distance, who have no idea who I am, they're not going to be like, Ill who's this person that's trying to help me? Why would you send me a message out of nowhere thinking that you get to be supportive to me like, and I specifically, I'm thinking of a couple of instances where there are people who, for years, I have been like, Oh, my God, that person is just like, untouchable, like, just at the pinnacle of what I do. And I just looked like, oh my gosh, if they ever noticed me and the thought that I had. And this year, I've just started, like, I get the Help a Reporter Out emails, I don't know if you're familiar with those, but it's like, you can sign up and it's just like, they send you like three emails a day. And it's like, these are all of the presses that are looking for content contributions. If I see one that so for example, there's this like very big, big deal podcast out there. And they did in a podcast episode on quiet quitting. And I saw in the harrow email one day contributions on quiet quitting, I stopped, found that person on Instagram, and I DM to them and I said, Hey, I saw this from this big publication. And I know you just did a podcast on this, it would be so easy for you to repurpose, maybe you have no interest in it, but I thought of you. And it was just like, I'm not, I'm not doing this because I'm like, and then I can ask them for something. I'm doing it because I'm like, I'm not going to pretend that you're at a different tier than me, and I am not your peer. And then like, for lack of better terms like boohoo about it, right. I'm just gonna, like, offer to help. And like, then I get to be in community with people that I really admire. And we all rise, like, that's the way that I think about it, you know? So

yeah, I think part of what I'm hearing is, like the competition mindset and and like overcoming that, which is, you know, another it's like scarcity competition. Like, we could just put it all together in a little fucking dumpster fire. And like, I just think, again, it's like, all such garbage, like, like, what if instead of competition, we build each other up, yes, send each other the DM like, hey, I really admire what you're doing. I saw this and thought of you like, why would that be wrong? Like, I literally just said this week to a group of people. I was like, my partner and I are colleagues, we literally do the same exact work. I'm not like, Oh, we're in competition, like, I want to see them thrive. Like, we don't have to compete for the same clients. Like we can both be in thriving. There, there isn't a limited amount of opportunities, a finite amount of opportunities, there isn't a finite amount of people to be in relationship with or to be in service of like, I just think this and I also hear part of what I hear you saying to is the like pedestal lysing like people, platforms, businesses, whatever, which I have such a hard time with, especially on social media. I'm like, I I'm constantly like, No, I can't DM them don't ever respond like, you know, because they're so and so. And like, I don't like where does that come from? Like, um, yeah, the likelihood is they probably won't respond, but,

like forever I got an I got a response to a DM from Do you know who Maya Shankar is? Who does the podcast a slight change of plans? Great podcast. She's really cool love her work ID and her like, I got a DM from her. Like, last week, and I was like, How the fuck? Is she in my DMs right now what is happening like freaked out was like that Kermit GIF where he's just like, slightly, arms are going. And I looked at her like, oh, because you DM her a year ago, and it took her a year to get back to you, but she fucking got back.

It's amazing. And I just think the internet, you know, and I'm not Instagram is a mess. And the Internet is a mess. And, and,

and also, also,

like, look at all the magic that can happen and look at the people we can connect with. Like, I just think it can be so beautiful. And it doesn't have to be urgent and it doesn't have to be rooted in trying to compete with one another. And I, I think that it's so special when we do take a moment to just be like, I want to reach out to this person, maybe they'll receive it, maybe they won't maybe I'll never hear from them. But like, I want to say this thing,

I did it because it's important to me. And I'm not going to not do it because I might not get an outcome. Yes, I'm just gonna do it. Like that's the person I want to be in the world. You know, it and and it comes back. Yeah, one way or another and it might not be through that person. And it might not be a specific act like, but if you let go of the need for the outcome, that's when it comes back.

It's so funny sometimes talking to you, because I'm like, you're more yogic than you realize. I'm just like listening to you. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's this teaching around non attachment. Like that's his teaching around, like being committed to the to the labor, even if the fruits aren't what you expect them to be. I'm also hearing you talk about like karma on some level. Like, this is why we're friends.

Okay, Tristan, there's one more thing I want to ask you. And I want to be respectful of your time. Okay. But I think we need to talk about it. Great. Where do you think, such a big question, what am I trying to ask you here because I could take the lid off of this. And it could be a whole podcast episode in itself. But there's a difference between speaking, speaking up and not being silent on issues that matter to you and stating your values versus when something happens feeling like I don't want to say that people are intentionally using it as a marketing opportunity. But we see it happen, it becomes used as a marketing opportunity, where it's like, I think the example that I always think of is like, in 2020, when people started branding, Black Lives Matter. Yeah, like, here's Black Lives Matter in my logo in my font and colors. So like, because I know that you teach about, like, how we can challenge systems of oppression and also grow our work. And I know that for you, there's like huge overlap and intersection between marketing and speaking up on these issues. I don't even know what my question is, but go? Yeah, great.

Sure. Um, this is what I think. I'm not sure where to begin.

Do we just say like, you actually have to give a shit? And like, I'm,

yes, I think that might be step one. Like you actually have to care about people other than yourself. Um, and you know, in step two is also I think, understanding that, and maybe this isn't step two, and maybe the steps aren't in line and hierarchical or anything, but like, Yeah, but like, you don't, we don't have to know everything about every topic, right? We're not going to, and we don't have to speak out every time something happens. Like, I think the 2020 moment in particular, and the BLM uprising, and the like black squares, and like everybody posting the Black Lives Matter hashtag, like some of that was actually quite harmful. And we don't need to get into that right now. But from what I hear from the actual BLM community, and like the people who are on the ground, that some of that shit was really harmful and performative. And like, where are those people now, when in 2020, everybody was posting about it, right? So I kind of feel like yes, you do have to actually care. You don't have to speak up about every single thing. How could we possibly do that? I'm not even saying that. Like, we have to be attuned to like what's happening in I mean, I do think we should care about like, for example, what's happening in the UK right? With the queen or, like, what was happening in Pakistan and is probably still happening with the floods. Like I think we shouldn't care about what's happening around the world. I don't think we need to speak about every single thing. I think we should be sensitive, though, to like, how people are being impacted by this shit when stuff goes down. And you and I've talked about this to off air as it were around like, I don't think we should be posting marketing content when stuff is going down. Like I don't think that's what our nervous systems need. I think it can do harm. Like, I think it's more self serving when we just keep going on the hamster wheel. Like, I've got to get this out now because the program is launching on such and such a date, even though another black person has been murdered by the cops like i That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about understanding our roles and responsibilities and our lanes, like, what do I have the right to speak out about, like, I have the right to speak out about my own white privilege, I have the right to interrupt when I when I can write whiteness, white supremacy, racism, etc. I have the right to speak up about trans identity and lived experience and it calls to action. And I would argue that when we hold privilege in these areas, we we do have an obligation to speak up and interrupt like that's part of what I'm highlighting is, and at the same time, if you're not ready to say the thing, get ready, yeah, find a way to get ready. And it doesn't have to be in your frickin marketing or on social media. But like maybe it's a value statement on your website, which you have put together and beautifully, you know, like maybe

Abdullah Bala, author and education student, have you

like it? Or maybe it's something else like interrupting something at the dinner table with your family? Yeah. But I do think I think that there's something to be said about sharing other people's voices, if you don't have your own to share. Or if you're still in a place of learning. I think there's something to be shared about, like, here's where I'm learning, right, and then supporting the people that you're learning from and in relationship with. And I do think there's something to be said about, like when you have an aha moment, or a direct connection to something, sharing something about that direct connection as a way to call other people into the conversation. And again, understanding our roles, responsibilities and our points of privilege so that we can be sensitive to not perpetuating harm or perpetuating, like replicating the systems that we're trying to challenge. And that is an ongoing process. Like how do I interrupt whiteness and dissenter my own whiteness, while also being a white person? Like, I don't know what the fuck that looks like, I'm learning in real time and, and making mistakes as I go. But I I feel like the time for us the time in which people separated political beliefs, values, like don't talk about your, your, you know, how you vote or whatever or what you support, like that's done. Like, we need to say, what what matters to us, because we're at a moment where shit is scary. And it's been scary for a while, but people have been shoving it under the rug and turning their face away and not not thinking about it. And I want people to understand that those days need to be over. And that we can bring this form of fill in the blank activism, solidarity, action, whatever, into our marketing. And I think that when we do, it feels again, like it goes back to like all the beginning of this conversation like it can feel better, it will be more aligned, it will be more genuine, it will be authentic, even if it's like, I'm not sure about this thing. I'm studying this thing, and I'm an inquiry about this thing. And here are the questions I'm sitting with, like an and also on I don't know, I just I could keep rambling about this. And it's such a it's such a big conversation and something that I don't have all the answers to ports. It's something I'm constantly trying to live into is like, how do I not stay silent? Yeah. How do I not stay silent? What am I missing? Like, what am I not seeing? Because of my own identities and lived experience? What am I not seeing because of the ways that I've been harmed by systems of oppression? You know, when I was growing up, the conversation was not seeing color, right? Like for decades, and that did so much harm, and and is deep in my brain. I'm still unlearning that thread in my brain. So how do I keep on learning? How do I keep like showing up for the hard conversations? How do I do it in a way that feels boundaried? Aligned less harmful on social media or in my marketing? And then how do I do it in my day to day life? Because both have to be happening simultaneously, right? It can't just be on Instagram. Please don't let it just be on Instagram. Like the revolution is not going to be on social

media. If it is, I have news for you. People are going to be able to tell. That's exactly and

you're gonna hear about it. So don't do it. It's not gonna go the way you think it's gonna go.

Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's such a, I don't have the answers. I want to be in the conversation, I'm in the conversation. And I'm figuring it out. And I'm making mistakes too. Like, I totally feel like I make mistakes on social media when it comes to speaking out about these things. And I make mistakes and conversations all the time. But I'm trying because I care and I want I want people to live better, not just people who look like me, right, like, and I want to live better. So, and we're all interconnected. So yeah, I'll pause there.

Tristan,

I know you have an upcoming cohort of your marketing mentorship. Well, you know, yeah, it's, I'm just gonna let you talk about what it is because I just had marketing mentorship, and I'm like, it is so much more than a marketing mentorship. Marketing is like a piece of it. Do you want to share with people about that so that they can go and find you and your and your work? If they're interested?

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I have a program. It's called Yoga, social justice, and marketing. To Brookes point, it's like way more than just marketing. I feel like marketing is a component that is woven in throughout the entire course or program. But it is much more focused on a lot of what we've been talking about in this conversation, I will say, and like the themes that inform this conversation that I some of which I can't speak to given my own identities and experience in the world. But it is a six month program, it starts in November. It's usually a pretty small group. And there's a lot of conversation time for questions and like group, like real time, like thinking processes. And, you know, we do talk about what it means to grow our work in the world, and how that relates to social justice considerations. It is somewhat focused on people who are in the yoga realm, but I gotta say, I feel like that's becoming like less and less of a focal point, and then anybody is welcome. And it's shifting, like, it's just in this place where I'm like, I don't know where it's going to go, I know this is the last time I'm going to be offering it in its current, shape and form. And I just think I want to see it go in a new direction. And I'm not quite sure what that looks like. But I do think the marketing component might be more robust, and the social justice ponent component might be more robust. And the yoga component might be a little bit less, but Yoga will be implied somehow, because I think yoga and social justice go hand in hand in my experience and understanding of yoga. So anyways, all of that to say, it's a six month program, it starts in November, this is the last time I'm offering it in its current shape and form. And if you enjoyed this conversation, please check it out. And let me know if you have any questions. I I'm clearly if it's not, well, if it's not clear, I love this stuff. Like I love this conversation. I love talking to Brooke about anything, but I love this stuff lights me up. And I feel like the people who have been in the program so far have gotten a lot out of it kind of been lit up to in all kinds of different ways. And if you're at all interested in the things we've talked about, then, you know, check out the program and, and stay tuned to see where it goes. Because I have no idea when it's gonna happen. But I'm going to shift it is shifting in some way. Yeah, I'm excited

to see. So I'm gonna link to that in the show notes. Also, if you are on my email list already, then you will have gotten an email when this went live with a link. So check your inbox, because it's probably already there. You can also find Tristan on Instagram as we established. So there's plenty of ways to find trust. And what I would say to as like a takeaway is if you were listening to this conversation, and you're still feeling like okay, I kind of get it but like I kind of don't get it and like I've heard these things before, but how do I actually apply it in my marketing is probably because there's some work that maybe isn't going on outside of your business and marketing. And I think that a lot of that would be stuff that would be addressed in this program. So this might actually make a lot of things click for you in a way that has maybe felt a little bit out of reach. I think

I think you're right. Yeah, thank you for saying that. I think that's true. Yeah.

Is there anything else that you want to share before we go trust them?

No, I just love being with you and talking about these things. I feel like such a nerd sometimes. But I'm like, I'm this was great. Thank you for having me. And

coming on again. I know that you are like you know you have important trip going on. And so I'm honestly just so honored. But you are always up for chatting with

me always. So do I really? Yeah. Thank you, Brooke.

Thank you. If you're not yet following Tristan and engaging with their work, you're welcome. for introducing you go and find them on Instagram, get some examples of different marketing around you so you have something else being reflected back to you. Head to the links in the show notes. You can find all of their programs that we talked about. I hope you love this episode and I'll talk to you next week. Transcend your dichotomy is production of passion and process collaborative LLC. This show is produced by me Brooke Monaghan with production and marketing support from Alex Henderson. If you want to support me in the show, the best way to do that is to leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts and share the show with someone who you know needs to hear it for free trainings my weekly newsletter or to join us in the Rule Breakers crew. Go to Brooke dash monaghan.com. That's mon a Ghan. Love you. I'll see you next week.