You might have seen it growing wild along a roadside ditch or in a few areas of Kansas as row crops. But there are significant challenges to making industrial hemp, not the pot that gets people high on THC, a staple of Kansas agriculture. But the Kansas reflected podcast and dig into the issue is Kelly ripple, co founder of Kansans for him, and founding president of planted association of Kansas. Welcome.
Thank you so much for having me, Tim, this is this is very, it's an important time to do this. So I appreciate it.
Great, we're gonna get into this issue. But let's start with a little bit of background for people who aren't really familiar with him for marijuana or any any of those arms of this plant. Let's distinguish between industrial hemp and the marijuana that people might buy in other states for the purpose of getting loaded.
Okay, so cannabis is its own distinct species. But I like to use the analogy of dogs. So you have canine as the overall you know, species, but you have German shepherds or poodles, they are both canines. They're both dogs, but they're genetically different. And hemp and marijuana, what people like to use as a term, they are separate and genetically they produce floral material that is high in cannabinoid content. And it has a psychoactive component, as well as medicinal but there is also the fiber and fiber and grain species that grows to produce around 50,000 Plus products.
So that's a good point. So there's they're very different. The result is they might look similar, similar not exactly. But But this hemp, which used to be grown routinely in United States many years decades ago. What kind of products are you talking about there?
These products can span anything that can be used with plastics, hemp is now being used in bio composites. Any type of textile fiber for clothing, the shirt that I'm wearing right now is made of hemp all the way to hemp insulation for construction material that has been approved at the international level. And it's being used for a number of other replacement products for things like fiberglass, and others. So we're talking about around nine to 10, different sectors, different industries that hemp can contribute to.
And there's there's other countries, I'm thinking China, maybe even Canada that have really dove into hemp in terms of a real market crop that can be used for a lot of purposes, other countries are ahead of it.
Absolutely. And that's been the case for a long time. I mean, hemp was used in ancient China, it's been used in Europe for generations. And these other countries are they have well established industries and markets for hemp. The United States is young to this relatively, we did use to grow it back in the war years for World War Two. And even prior to that, when when it was colonized in the 1700s. But it has been recently outlawed in the last 80 years. So we are reintroducing this emerging industry
that was a victim and part of the war on drugs and thus you don't have quite the access to hemp rope used to correct so what about the history of Kansas, any particular history, Kansas as a crop growing him,
there is some interesting history that I'm I was able to uncover because of a personal connection. And in 2017 2021, I discovered that Kansas was the first state in America to implement a state sanctioned hemp eradication program, and that was under the Nixon administration. And it was also under the guise that it was marijuana and come to find out during these studies, they uncovered the fact that it was a fiber type that was growing throughout Kansas wild and not the drug type.
So they went after something that might be liable to give you a headache, as opposed to get you high.
And there was also a myth at that time, due to prejudice and bias that immigrants were going to come in and set up a marijuana plot within your Henfield. And so that would that would cause issues. And obviously, over time, we figured that that has not come to pass. Now that sounds
bizarre. So, you know, the To be honest, if you think about this politically, there's been angst in Kansas about marijuana generally. And while other states have passed medicinal marijuana or recreational marijuana laws, Kansas has not either of those. And so they that has made them later to the game in terms of hemp production, correct?
That is correct. Kansas has we've been slow. And we've all we've all known that. You know, as far as an overly conservative state like ours, we will take baby steps to reintroduce an industry especially like this that is federally regulated, you know by the Drug Enforcement Agency because As they do still have jurisdiction over this as well as USDA, so we are operating within a federal regulation, you know, regulatory guidelines. But overall, Kansas has been slow because of the fact that we have a number of kind of competing commodities, we have all the row crops corn, soybean, wheat, these all compete for acreage, and no one really wants to let go of any acreage, even if it's for a rotation crop. However, hemp does provide a value add for farmers that they can't get with other crops, especially that are experiencing volatile markets. There might even be
advantages to growing hemp, you know, in terms of its water consumption, and absolutely things like
we've seen, actually, this year, I've seen some very healthy hemp fields in central and western Kansas. And
just to remind everybody, we are in a drought condition and much of the state. So let's talk about the hemp market in Kansas. It's it's been a handful of years that the Kansas legislature kind of pushed the green light for this. I think there was robust interest, certainly initially, so where are we at? You know, what's the trend line?
Yeah, so originally in 2019, when the legislature legalized industrial hemp for farmers, they could they could become licensed to grow. There was a lot of interest, mainly driven by the National hype for CBD and cannabidiol. Whereas, you know, you could grow a hemp plant, extract the flower for biomass and create CBD products. CBD is that is one cannabinoid in the hemp plant that appears versus other cannabinoids, including THC, which gets you hot. And Ryan, which hemp plants, that initial
interest was about CBD, not necessarily THC.
Exactly. Now, CBD plants are labor intensive, and they need more care throughout the growing cycle. Whereas if you are to grow a fiber or grain variety, that's more along the lines of a row crop that is similar to what Kansas farmers are used to. And so we've known for many years, that long term, the long term sustainable economic development that will come through the fiber and grain variety. So we unfortunately needed to go through this process where people had people saw dollar signs, and they said, Oh, if we grow CBD varieties, we'll get money, you know, sooner or faster. But the reality is they needed to have established the genetics that they were going to use for fiber and grain because that's really where we're going now. And kind of what we're experiencing both at the state level and national level is a shrinking before an expansion where farmers do understand what they what they need at their operation to grow and contract with processors to then create that supply chain. And we're seeing some pretty big expansion right now. And just
to clarify, when you were, if you're growing us as a row crop, what are you pulling out of the field that you're going to make use of seed and the plant itself, the leaves,
mainly this the grain, the seed, okay, that could be taken off the top with a header on a combine. And then depending what variety you're growing, if you have a dual crop, you have that entire stock left, and you can cut that down, read it in, it's called a reading process in the field, you can then bale up that fiber and sell that to a processor as a bale and
to make some sort of product out of it. I know there's some interest in having this as a feed out of what element of the plant would that be? Again, the seed,
it would be the seed, yes. And they refer to grain but at the national level AFTCO, the animal feed regulatory body, it is expected that they will include hemp seed as an ingredient. And once that happens, the Kansas Department of Agriculture will adhere to that and adopt that as well.
Okay. All right. Now, let's take this go back just a few months to the 2023 Kansas legislative session. There were some hearings on some proposed reforms in Kansas to try to help advance this industry. Let's let's try to take these as parts. And, you know, once you talk about the contents of the bill, and we'll just work our way through that the what it is and why it is.
So the bill that had been proposed that was a result of industry stakeholder conversations that we had had, and it was House Bill 2168. And we had proposed that we include animal feed in it it was it was included in livestock, even though we know that it may make more sense for companion animals right now. On laying hens is the next provision that Africa will approve. And so we had discussed around, you know, including hemp seed as livestock companion animals. And we also wanted to eliminate the barriers for entry for farmers. And
before we get to that, let's talk about the the feed and the seed. In terms of foods, there was opposition from the Department of Agriculture and other there was maybe other seed producers know there
was opposition from the from the Department of Agriculture, given that they have federal guidelines that they operate under. So they're
worried about getting cross with the feds, and so they were reluctant to dive in themselves. But once once the federal government, if indeed it does, approves this, then then there would be there's indications that the Kansas Department of Agriculture might be more amenable to it correct.
However, Kansas is one of 11 states that would have looked at and reevaluated hemp standing in their feed laws. There are 10 states right now that have approved this at the state level they have went ahead, yes. And so it was said to the group, that Kansas will not be a leader, we're not going to stick our neck out and tried to push the envelope on some of this because of the fact that we have livestock and all of these other industries that do not want to be interfered with, before we
skip back to the other barriers to entry. Do you think other states that have either medicinal marijuana or recreational marijuana are more amenable to to having hemp as a product and grown in their states?
Absolutely. Once you regulate and allow the access, you protect the industry of cannabis in general, the myths and bias that had kept prohibition in place for so long, they kind of just they go away. And there's more of an embracing of the fact that, hey, this actually does provide benefit to our communities, even people who do not participate with the plant itself. There are a lot of ancillary benefits that communities have and economic development. So if there is a lot better adoption, and I guess thorough social acceptance in other legal states and
anxiety level drops, okay, I interrupted you, let's go back to other barriers of entry for people who might farmers who might be interested in producing him.
The barriers of entry right now include pretty high license fees, and these are state license fees, state license fees that fund the program itself, they need the funding to administer the program itself. And so
this test the seed Test, test these plans to make sure they're not packed with THC, the wrong kind of marijuana plant, correct?
Right. That is correct. And one of the provisions that was in the bill. And we then talked later at the stakeholder meeting was a new performance based testing methodology.
Explain what that is, that would be
a, this is approved at the USDA level, and it is a representative sample method that you would test for a crop. And based on this at the state level, they can create their own methodology to say, Okay, if you test this variety, this many times for this number of acres, that can that will represent a fully representative sample, and then we will, we will accept that. And the Department of Ag is concerned that it could increase the number of tests overall. But I think we kind of need to work through the methodology process to be able to really know for sure if that is the case, and so they are willing to develop a methodology for performance based testing, which is very positive, that's that's a great step and they are willing to submit it to USDA and get it approved.
Okay. And so maybe that would reduce the fees that people pay. Explain what a bit about the fees. They're not, they're not this these fees are not cheap.
They're not cheap. It is it's $1,200 ultimately to get involved. And when when we're talking about other row crops, we corn soybeans, there are no licenses for that are above and beyond your no
seeds to growing tomatoes in your garden or 10,000 acres of corn.
Nope. So other states have lowered their license fees as a an incentive to because we want to encourage people to participate in this, we don't really want to discourage it, especially since this is a value add to farmers, they could be getting ahead as opposed to just getting by on crop insurance year by year. So the barrier of entry will be helped. Once the US the I'm sorry, the Department of Agriculture in Kansas lowers their fees. And they did agree that they are willing to try lowering some fees for a couple years and see what that does to the overall number of licenses.
And some of this can some of this, perhaps the Department of Agriculture in Kansas can do administratively. But some of them maybe require legislative approval. Correct? Correct.
I think it definitely depends. Moving forward, what it is specifically that they're wanting to change with the program, because, yeah, the Department of Ag has said they there are multiple things they can change at the at the agency level without statute, basically
entrance fees, licensing fees, maybe they're called there's crop testing costs. And we have a prohibition at the moment on using it as a grain in terms of livestock or companion animals. What were there other elements of the bill,
the for for human consumption? I think that's we're going to be looking at that here pretty soon as well. Like I read where there's
some people said, maybe not enough testing, but there's been a lot of tests,
there's tons of testing, then K State has some really robust testing as as do other states and countries. Now, kind of the ironic piece of all this is you can go to a store right now and buy hemp seed on the shelf.
That's right, I have I put it in yogurt.
I just had an insanely great eye on it. Yeah, I had hemp seed last night on my waffles. It was delicious. Okay. Okay, but But what we've created ultimately is out of state out of country, exporters, we've imported all of those hemp products here. We're not allowing our own farmers to participate in the industry. And that's what needs to change.
Now, there's another element of the 2168 to House Bill. Are processors fingerprinted? Like is are there requirements, like background checks? Yes. They don't do that for other crops.
They do not? Yeah, it's it's kind of fun to you. You don't have to get a license or fingerprint to grow corn even though that can be made into alcohol, of course. But you do need to for a grain that has no psychoactive component at all. And that was one of the things that came out in 2022.
Bill might have done away with the proposal
it would have Yes, but But the reality is that at the DEA level at the federal level, they have designated anything that is related to cannabis that is below a point. 3% THC level is hemp. So it's not it's exempt from the controlled substance. So point,
point three or less hemp. And keep in mind, THC content of marijuana, you can get into dispensary across the state line in Missouri, that can be up to 30%. Right, just very powerful. You mentioned a stakeholder meeting that you had that was coordinated, I believe with a couple of legislators, correct the House Ag chairman and vice chair, and you said that there was an indication that there was a good vibe that came out of that you want to explain your cert shareholder meeting and really what that point of it was that was recently
it was it was recently it was June 15. It was an extremely productive meeting and that we had a very direct, unbiased conversation that dealt with crucial topics about all of the hemp program and people there were there were views expressed from both the agency side from the lawmaker side from the the industry stakeholders side that I don't think had ever been really just talked plainly about. And that's really what we need. We just need to have the crucial conversation to say, look, this isn't working. These are the things maybe we could try and why can we not do that? All of that. And so it was a very collaborative, forward momentum meeting and I came away from it, thinking that we've got a different trajectory now in the state.
Let's sort of a grassroots conversation that that is, I think, useful when the our part time citizen legislature comes together and tries to grapple with about 50,000 difficult issues. If you have more expertise and more understanding and kind of a coalition that develops here among all these various interests, then maybe a heck of a lot easier to get something done in the Capitol,
and we've tried this over the years. Since this became legal in 2019, but I feel that maybe some of the, I guess representation of of other sectors are allowing this to move forward.
You mentioned the Farm Bill, I think there's potential that the ongoing federal discussions of the reauthorization of the farm bill that includes all these farm programs, and subsidies and so forth for all sorts of crops. Nationwide, there might be elements of the farm bill that could be helpful in Kansas and turning the hemp industry, what might that be?
Yes, so there are a couple of different things. But the main one, there is a provision that is being proposed that will exempt fiber and grain from perhaps either being tested at the same level as other types of hemp plants. And then I think the performance based testing is kind of part of that. But the just the exemption of fiber and grain to say maybe these folks don't need to be fingerprinted, like we had discussed and have some of the other restrictions that other other row crops do not have.
So let's think about the other challenges that really the hemp industry is faced in Kansas and maybe other states. You know, there's, if you're thinking about it from the framework of a hemp farmer, there are no federal subsidies tied to him.
There is a hemp program within insurance. Okay, so federal crop insurance, federally subsidized crop insurance, yes, it does include hemp now it doesn't have protection yet. For new farmers, you have to have had grown the hemp successfully. And I think the past two years, maybe it was just one. Okay. But um, so there are basic levels. And I think there are some other restrictions on that, like it's you can't submit for prevent plant, you can't submit a Prevent Plant claim for hemp, but that the that program is going to expand and I think perhaps in the 2023 farm bill there, there could be some changes with with that as well. But what we're seeing is the more farmers talk to their agents about crop insurance for him to see the interest in it, though the FSA office, the USDA offices, they will change that program as more interest is out there. And there's more demand for it. When you
see this hemp plants in the fields, are they you know, sometimes people plant crop plant through a cover crop that's in on the ground to preserve and retain moisture in the plant right through it with another crop, soybeans or something, whatever. Do you see any of that going on in Kansas with?
Yeah, so hemp in general grows really well with cover crops. And that is because it's considered a regenerative crop. It doesn't require the same amount of inputs as other crops, including herbicides, insecticides.
So it's not the quantity that you would put on corn per se,
correct. It may require some levels of nitrogen so that it can emerge. But overall when hemp peaks at canopy, it shows it is a natural weed suppression it That's right looks out
wildly, there's no there's no, there's no weeds down there on the ground. It's like a forest.
Right, right. And so cover crops do grow well, underneath. And like you said, they retain the soil, they can fix the nitrogen there are a lot of benefits to growing cover crops just in general. But hemp has been shown to to grow well with that type of practice.
So what is it like being an advocate for him? Do people think you're a pothead? I mean, your your grandparents wonder how you lost your way?
That's funny. No, I I can't speak for others. But I have tried my best to incorporate data and science into all of this because that's ultimately how we got here was the lack of data and science. And so I, having been an alum of Emporia State, I was shown that data is very important. Not that not only to tell story, but to understand how we got to this point. And so yeah, I've just I don't I don't know I've in my careers. I feel like I've tried to maintain a level of professionalism that others can, can notice. I guess. I was
just joking. I'm sure your grandparents very proud of you. I don't know. But before we close out here we have a trivia question for you. What would it be In the country that is the biggest producer of him?
That's a great question. I think it depends on what sector of hemp, you're talking about whether you have styles, or in grain, the
questioner has been stumped by the question. I don't know.
Overall, China,
there you go. Ding, ding, ding, ding, dang, Canada, these. Yeah, those are the two, the two countries that I see as leaders of it. There's no reason the United States can't be big competitors with those countries, right?
Absolutely. Not when we're, I mean, just as a rotation crop, we would we would far surpass a lot of other countries acreage,
for sure. You're going to try to do some work in the 2024 legislative session, revisit some of these issues, perhaps
I think we will. We're going to revisit after the potential approval from aapko. At the at the national level for for seed. Once the 2023 farm bill goes through, we can kind of come back to the table and say what what we can do at the agency level or what needs to be changed in statute.
There's kind of a little bit of a pause here to wait and see what happens at the federal level. Before Kansas takes another step forward, but you're you're viewing this as with an optimistic
lens. Absolutely, yes, definitely. Okay.
We're gonna leave it there. Kelly ripple co founder of the Kansans for Hampton, founding president of planners Association, Kansas. Thank you very much for joining us. This is fascinating.
