The emotional toll of investigative journalism | Global Journalism Seminar with John-Allan Namu, Investigative journalist & CEO, Africa Uncensored | Otter.ai

The emotional toll of investigative journalism | Global Journalism Seminar with John-Allan Namu, Investigative journalist & CEO, Africa Uncensored

Reuters Institute42min

Speaker 1

00:00

Bucha journalism series. Welcome to the Reuters Institute and a very warm welcome to all our fellows, of course to our wider audiences. Well, this is a continuing conversation that we have to the course of our fellowship program, where we try and reach out to stories and journalists who really made a difference in the area that they work in and perhaps something for everyone who's listening to take away from those conversations. Today I'm joined by a very special guests John Elana mu. Welcome to you. Quick context for those who may have heard of his work or not heard of his work. He's been an investigative journalist for many decades now started off as a TV reporter, and now has a startup of his own. Perhaps I shouldn't use the word startup because it's been around for a while Africa uncensored. A lot of his work has been investigated in nature, and I reckon it hasn't been easy. It has often put him in the line of fire, it's often put him in some extremely uncomfortable situations as perhaps his extended family as well. There's a broader conversation to have in the context of where journalism is headed across the world on what one should expect as an investigative journalist. What comes with the dose, and what kind of collateral damage and emotional damage journalists might have to often deal with while working in that arena. John, a very warm welcome to you. Thank you for making time to speak with us. I know you've got a busy schedule over there. Let me let me launch into a little bit of context for us because I know you've been this scrappy TV journalist for many years now, the one who didn't want to go down the television anchor mold, the one who wanted to do a lot of deep dive stories. Tell me how the birth of your organization happened and why you chose to move away from what is often the glitzy a part of journalism, which is within a TV newsroom.

Speaker 2

01:52

Thanks a lot. Metallian. And thank you for joining us everybody who's on this call, and I'm really grateful that people have chosen to speak with to hear me speak for a couple of minutes. So to your question, why did I start African sense that I felt well, I mean, a personal ambition, so I always wanted to be kinda like the master of my own fate. In a sense, journalistically speaking choose the stories that I want to do a think are important. Try and raise the banner a little bit in terms of public interest journalism in our country and in our region. And also for more, you know, interest industry, you know, having observed certain industry wide trends. The business model was starting to feel a little bit at around the time that we made the decision to jump. Also, we had been owned by we beam myself and two of my co founders, who we work together with, had been at the at the sharp end of attempts to sense our work, tends to manage to editorialize our work, and we felt that Kenya and I say this with due respect to everybody else in the region, Kenya is too important a country, journalistically speaking, to not fight back or to not have some sort of response against that kind of censorship, which we saw starting to creep in, especially from the security state. At the time we were fighting Kenya, Kenya was in a very serious phase of its war against terrorists, the Shabaab. And we, fortunately, or unfortunately, what the journalists who are questioning a lot about some of the moves that were being made at that time, and so those are some of the motivations that led us to start African sensor.

Speaker 1

03:56

Interesting. Important it to the topic that we're talking about, because it's not an easy context in which journalism it's certainly not easy in the life and times that we live in at this point in time. How would you try both emotional tools investigative journalism, does that mean to you?

Speaker 2

04:17

That's a really big question. And big because I think when investigative journalists journalism especially in our region is characterized, and I guess in other places, as well as characterized by this specific kind of, you know, stereotype, it's hard access. It's dodging bullets, it's threats and all sorts of things. And to large extent that's true. But I think what seeps in more deeply. Some of the experiences that you have, you know, into to people who themselves have been at the sharp end, um, themselves are facing all sorts of challenges in their own lives. And as well as the toll that it takes on you as as a person having to kind of live through relive or listen to this, these traumatic experiences and live through them, you know, vicarious those are the things that kind of seep into your bones and, and for me, the emotional toll is one that that has built over a long, long period of time. And you have to find certain ways of creating pressure valves within yourself to try and release. It is the toll that also comes from just the mental labor that comes with any sort of endeavor journalism, that the long hours that the time away from, from family, the guilt, about that time away from family and friends, when it's no longer a badge of honor, because you know, early in your career when you say I'm busy, I need to work kinda is a badge of honor that you kind of wear proudly because you've got the job, you've got the opportunity. You're you're starting out in your life, but as you as you settle down and make a family as you try and reconnect with your own roots and your past and certain people that you might have left behind, you also find that they've kind of moved on without you. And so dealing with just sometimes being everywhere, and not being rooted. You know, in one place, can can take a bit of a toll on me. And I think this is something that a lot of generalists experience. We speak to lots of people on a daily basis, but it is so little time to create or to develop deep connections. And so your circle of friends is very, very small your circle of friends is really, you know, tight and and there's only so many people who kind of understand what it is that you go through on a daily basis and then many times they go through the same things themselves. So long answer but but I hope I've I've given me something that kind of makes sense. You have

Speaker 1

07:10

indeed, you know, perhaps let me flip that question just to sort of analyze this another way because for people looking from the outside, it's often something that comes with it, you know, annual trainings. For example, the famous investigative reporter who exposed corruption in very large sporting bodies often said, you know, the cue for an investigative reporter is when everyone's going in one direction, you go in the opposite direction, is that thing that, you know, comes with a badge, or do you think that's overstating the point that if you're an investigative journalist, there's going to be emotional collateral damage, there's going to be a life that's quite different from how other journalists even function?

Speaker 2

07:50

Well, to a large extent, it's true because you see, everything that or a large part of an investigative journalists career is spent either on their own or on their own physically or on their own method, where they are contending with certain very heavy facts and heavy, heavy sets of information that perhaps not everybody else knows. And that's the requirement that you be the person to dig you'll be the person to do the unpopular things. You'll be the person who has to figure out a way of of, you know, of asking the tough questions repeatedly and developing a reputation for, for being for not being liked in some quarters. And and for people to be very mistrustful of you. Even in everyday things, you know, everyday exchanges. Like, and I'm certain this is other people's experience. I'll go to a restaurant or I'll go shopping or something. And, and, and someone comes and says hello, hi, how are you? And we get into a bit of a deep conversation and they want to tell me something and they're like, oh, no, but Don't record me. You know, don't, you know, don't don't report this and, and they always think that you're on the clock. So So in a sense, you kind of have to develop a certain kind of not, I wouldn't say cavalier attitude towards some of the responses that people have to you as a person, but to understand that there's a certain perception that people have of you. And it's developed mainly because of the kind of lifestyle we've chosen and the kind of career that you've chosen. So there's a balance, you kind of have to try and understand that yes, this solitary, many times solitary life and career that you've chosen, does have consequences does have things that, you know, that will be difficult for you to be able to establish. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker

09:53

we've put you in a slightly scratchy line, and I hope everyone can hear

Speaker 2

09:56

me. I'm sorry. So it's really windy here. So I'll try and move less noisy location in a second. But as you're as you're asking your question, yeah, so just for a second

Speaker 1

10:10

when we get to the more personal aspect of things that you have experienced yourself and your family has drawn to the course of your investigative reporting. Let me ask you what you think has changed over the last decade or so because the observation for many journalists, particularly those doing work that may be uncharitable to you know, ruling administrations is the fact that it's far more legitimized. Now, there is state sponsored pushback or large organization based based pushback, and that can be quite difficult for an individual journalist or an individual news room to fight against. Is that a change that you've observed as well in the last couple of years, that this is far bigger and far more organized now when you're when they try to take on the journalist for his or her work?

Speaker 2

10:58

Well, certainly, and I think there's certain trends globally and locally that that that have have announced this kind of shift. Does there's a there's a, there's a there's a professional colleague of mine, a friend, Nigel and Ebola, who always tries to remind people that even as people who are engaged in journalism in civil and civil society, work etc. are trying to organize to be able to, you know, build on our democracy to be able to open up means for accountability etc. There are people who, whose job it is on a daily basis is to claw back these kinds of these kinds of advances. To be able to create systems, governments even that revolve around you know, concepts like negative nationalism and sub nationalism, and, and portray the world in a very, very different very, very, you know, essentially the antithesis of what it is that people are doing. And I think with the aid of technology, they've been able to find their villager, the to be able to find their community, I should say, and and empower them by sort of legitimizing the fact that if you have numbers, if you have people who are who believe in it in what it is that you believe, it doesn't really matter whether that what your beliefs are unethical or, or might cause strife but that they are totally legitimate and deserve their place in the sun to an extent in a marketplace of ideas. That is true. But when it becomes something that overrules every every other idea that starts to victimize and to target specific groups, then you know that that's, that's wrong. And unfortunately nation states are learning this from one another.

Speaker 1

12:57

You've had your own traumatic experience. On the Pandora Papers you took on the Kenyan president. Share with us what those what those months look like and God is really a period

Speaker 2

13:10

I think I think the trauma for me and actually this on on a thread in advance of this conversation. I think the trauma for me was was a lot of them. It was deeply personal and you know, a bit of a debate with myself in my mind. And so what happened was, of course, with the story on the Pandora Papers, we were taking on the most powerful family, not just the president but the most powerful family in the country at the time and exposing things about them that they may not have wanted exposed for some people felt and quite legitimately, that it wouldn't be a good idea for my family and I to kind of hang around and see what the responses to the story would be and asked us to go and lay low for a bit to get pull the kids off to school. You know, staying in a ratty apartment somewhere for about a month and that's fine. That's okay. Because, again, I don't want to try and wear this as some sort of badge that or some sort of burden that I've carried alone. This has been the experience and much worse for a lot of investigative journalists around the world. But why I say that the battle was more one of our mental one was because at that point in time with the kinds of reactions or no reactions, little reactions that the story elicited with the kind of misinformation that came up around the story. It really forced me to think about why it was I was putting my family through this, you know, and, and you see, whereas I've developed those shock absorbers for these kinds of stories over time. My kids haven't, you know, and they are now at the age where they can truly question my, my work and the things that I do. And those were some hard conversations to have. And people don't realize this about journalists or you know, the it's not just one person behind the byline. You know, there's a family there's, you know, there's there's a community of people who are impacted by anything that happens to that journalist. And I'm in for a long spell there while we were away, I guess maybe because I had the time to think about it. I really did think about just, you know, hanging up my boots and then moving on to something a little easier, a little less threatening a little, you know, something that that doesn't give get me you know, awkward stares or, or silly questions. Like are you recording me or, or make me the ire of politicians and elite and people in the elite that I haven't met? We've done stories about, you know, those kinds of things kind of started to percolate. And I just wondered whether in my own desire and ambition to want to continue doing investigative journalism, whether it was offering my children and my wife a normal life. And that's a heavy thing to ask yourself because this isn't a normal life. And is it fair for me to impose this on them simply because I have that permission? It certainly did. Change the matrix of why it is that I do what I do. And I think in the long term, it will inform or give me a bit of a richer understanding of what it is and why it is I do what I do. And why it is that I I am still in this profession. Ultimately, and again, I don't want to seem like some sort of martyr or sacrificial lamb or something like that. But ultimately, there have to be those those of us who naively choose to be naive in our belief that that journalism does change things. And that the work that we do, though insignificant as one piece, or as two pieces over time, builds a body of work that can talk to the better angels in our society, and that can expose wrongdoing over time that can speak to systems and, and it you have to kind of try and explain that over time to the people who love you.

Speaker 2

17:46

Yeah, so I mean, if I'm honest, and you can see I'm still thinking about this as we go along. It's not a complete answer. It's, it's kind of like a living document of responses to to to the kinds of things that people face. But at this point in time, yeah, I'm choosing to be naive about what what the impact of our profession can be. And no matter what happens, hopefully, hopefully what I'm seeing will be borne out by time, you know, time is our friend after and maybe it'll be proven right

Speaker 1

18:27

now it's in motion. You know, it's, what you say is, is unique to you and yet not unique in the sense that this is something so many journalists all over the world are struggling with John, I think particularly in more intimate conversations, they pointed out that they feel less vulnerable, especially if they didn't have children. We are not looking over your shoulder to wonder about what their future or their prospects look like because of the road that you have chosen to go down. You know, in that moment when you were really hunkering down what were the two or three things that convinced you that you would like to stay with the path that you've chosen and I don't mean this on a very broad base, philosophically, manner. I genuinely you know, want to know the thoughts that came to your mind because I think that's probably what journalists in very tough circumstances, do question and I'm wondering what has worked for you and might also work for someone else listening to them.

Speaker 2

19:25

Particularly, more specifically to the Pandora Papers was that I was part of, of, of such a big sea change in the way journalism is starting to be practiced that that we are not lone wolves, but we are a community of practice, who are willing to collaborate for the greater good in a sense, that was really, really reassuring. Also, that at that point in time, and as much as my family and I were in this situation, but I wasn't alone. That also helped. But third, was I think just knowing that inasmuch as as perhaps the work that we did, didn't quite have the impact that we had thought it might that it's out there, you know, and, and it can't be taken back. You know, people can attempt to bury it, people can attempt to do all sorts of things, but it can't be taken back. The genie's out of the bottle as you know, so to speak on various previously unknown aspects of offshore finance, etc. And being a part of that, you know, that part of the community of journalists who worked on on the Pandora Papers was it was a, you know, and I think about a highlight in my career. So, so those are the things that kind of kept me going and of course on a more personal level. My wife, constantly telling me that, you know, we've been through us and she's been quite, you know, a pillar for me. And I guess maybe in terms of advice is to find your pillars the people who are your pillars of strength that you can draw from in those specific situations when you just feel like your well is empty, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 1

21:28

One Pillar I imagine can and should be your editor. It could be your network and your fellow journalists and perhaps even the larger community. What is your own experience? And what do you bring to the newsroom in your own organization as best practices for an editor or a group of fellow journalists or a community of journalists to support someone who's trying to do work? That is essentially dangerous in nature?

Speaker 2

21:55

I think what we've established that Africans answered, perhaps because it was small, and we still asked more, and didn't have much of the same resources as a bigger newsroom might have was that everybody pitched into the work and was allowed to pitch into the work at whatever point be it because we built into our, our gatekeeping processes, a group preview of our documentaries, and adding that kind of commentary and seeing that it's being taken the you know, adding your comments and seeing that they're being taken seriously. The second thing is, is we've taken quite seriously the toll that that mental trauma has on journalists, and we're constantly leaving our doors wide open for people to have these kinds of discussions in open for, but also more closed circumstances through professional help. Those those two things I'd say are the things that uniquely are part of our practice at work. That I'd say are really important to just let people know that it's okay to have, you know, down days or even down weeks or months, okay, in a sense that everybody does go through these things, and to figure out where we can get the resources to support journalists, journalists who are going through this kind of stuff. I think that's been an important part of, of an perhaps a difference between us and in the newsrooms that have worked in in the past. That those resources are available and more than that, the openness and the attitude towards misuse of mental health is not one that it's always a disease or this person has a problem but no, this person deserves our our attention or help or support, both within the storytelling. And the product. That is journalism, but as an individual who's going through something and possibly might not be able to talk about it quite often.

Speaker 1

24:10

You know, this is sort of parallel to the idea of the emotional toll of journalism, but I think it's important because of the practices that you have talked about. In some of your previous interviews, I noticed that you talked about not trying to be a hero not trying to get that shot at the risk of your own life. Paid. Reporters and producers in mail. chose not to investigate report after dark is that something that is a process in your for you to share that with people listening?

Speaker 2

24:40

Yeah, so like more practical, things, like especially for dangerous stories is having risk assessments, figuring out what the risks are and the lay of the land before you go into it. But but also, just recognizing that if a story is too dangerous, just pull away and it will be okay. Right? We'll figure out other ways of being able to tell the story. It's, it's it's in those things that we put into our editorial policy and our practice that have allowed for us to be you know, to have survived as long as we have for the seven years. And and I think one other thing that see one other thing that like that we do when it comes to stories that are dangerous is also trying to limit the people who access information even within the even within the organization, allowing for there to be sort of like silos when it comes to the protection of certain kinds of information, but also explaining more broadly to the organization that people who are in organization that there are certain things that are happening. And finally, it would be training. So ensuring that journalists have as part of daily practice certain kinds of hygiene around how they treat their information, certain kinds of knowledge about how to counter surveillance, which is something that we're trying to build now and over time, and certain, you know, protocols when it comes to being in dangerous or hostile environments. I think those are the things that are that that we're trying to continually inculcate as as practice at organization that have been helpful.

Speaker 1

26:32

What can the larger community of journalists region in order to support their fellows who are doing investigative journalism? You know, in environments where increasingly there is anti bail jurisprudence, for example, there is a general tendency for governments to push back and to create more stringent measures in the guise of government stability or political stability. It's not my beat. I'm a Political reporter or a business reporter, but what can I do want to support someone who is doing investigative journalism?

Speaker 2

27:04

The first thing is a build build relationships with people in the region. I'm actively always trying to seek out new friendships within within the profession. From people who are not in Kenya. And I know for selfish and unselfish reasons, I know one day I will need to call on some of these people in case the legal the legal environment in Kenya changes and veers more towards a security state as we're seeing in our region, but also because I know that they're going through certain kinds of restrictions or are part of or reporting in particularly different difficult climates that I may not understand but, but need at least at the level of being a journalist and wanting people's stories to come out to support. So I'll give you an example from from the 2021 example, elections in Uganda. There was an internet shutdown there. There was a journalist who was really really like a very good investigative journalist who I respect who reached out to me to manage his Twitter account, and when you know, content, or new breaking news came out for me to tweet on his behalf. And it's, it's things like that that seems small but have practical, measurable ways that you can assist someone being able to do their work. But also when it comes to times in which journalists are in danger, or are facing certain kinds of strains and stresses from the work to speak up on their behalf, because sometimes they just don't have the bandwidth to be able to do so. both as individuals or even within the environment that they're operating. It's really important to be to be those kinds of again, again, pillars of support for people within the region.

Speaker 1

29:02

Since we have pivoted to politics, you had perhaps the presidential election in August this year. Well, expectations are high I mean from other regions as well in terms of what Kenya could move to eyes are very keenly on your independent institutions and work pay me to code what is just and right as a journalist who's working on the precarious end of the bar. Have you noticed any changes do you see cause for hope, for instance, in terms of how journalists are treated or how organizations that try to do investigative work are treated?

Speaker 2

29:39

I think right now it's too early to say I think it's, it's still really early in the new in the new regimes, you know, rulership for us to be able to establish what kind of presidency what kind of rulership this will be. Certainly one thing that concerns me is the religiosity. That leadership has been approached with in this specific regime. Because what then it denotes is that if you are sort of like, propping up one religion, then it means people have contrary beliefs, etc, might not have the same space or bandwidth to be able to express themselves. But again, it's too early. I'd say that what what certainly is is is reassuring, is that at least at certain levels, and especially senior levels, the the government appreciates the challenge that is up, we're up against, you know, from from, from an economic point of view, it is it is a difficult time it's a difficult challenge and and I think we appreciate that which is quite reassuring.

Speaker 1

30:59

I have many questions for you as well, but I am conscious of time and as is form and practice. I would like to open the floor first to journalism fellows. There's a whole bunch of questions. Perhaps I'll just go in the order that they've been streaming game leader from Zambia has a question later, we'd love to hear what you'd like to ask John.

Speaker 3

31:20

Thanks for making time to speak with us. You mentioned that investigative journalists have timed you mentally on your own and you've also making some things that your family has had to go through and also making that sometimes you've been to a very small circle back then that cycle has gone through similar trauma. So do you think collective healing for both investigative journalists and their families can be considered as an option.

Unknown Speaker

31:52

Collectively for investigative journalists,

Speaker 3

31:55

collective healing for investigative journalists and also their families, do you think that can be considered as an option?

Speaker 2

32:04

Oh yeah, certainly. I think I think it's important to think of the journalist and the work as something that doesn't just impact them. So it's really important to try and figure out what the the ecosystem for support is not just for the journalist but even for you know, even peak for people who work behind the scenes, producers, etc. But also for family members. How do you support these these these kinds of people at points in time that they're there, you know, matriarch or patriarch or family member is in need how do you ensure that the family can be strong enough to be able to support metallic Can Can I just ask that I switch off my my camera there's a little movement around and I'd like to continue the conversation but it might be a bit distracting if my cameras on I also like to move to a quieter location.

Speaker 1

33:00

Absolutely. What we'll do is queue up the next question for you while you resettle yourself. It's truly a journalist on the move pun intended. Let me switch over to Eugene from the Philippines regime. Go ahead with your question.

Speaker 4

33:14

Hi, Uriah, thanks. for taking the time off the chat with us. I'm from the Philippines and I want to ask how you handle with sources who might be difficult, particularly not just sources for politicians or people in power, who might have felt slighted by the investigative work, but sometimes there are also other types of sources, maybe in communities or people who want to seek the help but who are not satisfied with how the overall

Speaker 2

33:48

I'm sorry, you're breaking up Connect. I can't hear your question. Once you settled, I can just repeat the question again.

Unknown Speaker

33:56

Are you settled now, John?

Speaker 2

33:59

I am I caught part of that question. And I think, yeah, it was about difficult sources.

Speaker 1

34:06

Yes. Because sources and perhaps I can just sort of transcribe the word regime. It was about what happens when sources turn a bit hostile when the story goes, you know, larger than they had expected or when they are nervous for their own consequences of having participated in that story.

Speaker 2

34:27

I think, interestingly, I was asked the same question at a training that I was moderating today. And the first thing to do is in the situation where perhaps the source is trying to confront you, when you're doing like a right to response interview is to pull away immediately to recognize that sometimes it's better to lose the story than losing light. But secondly, when you start to recognize that sources of being that sources of being aggressive, or hostile, I think it's to raise it with with your organization, make sure that there are certain protocols in place, because you will have known how sensitive your story is, in advance of doing it is to have certain protocols in place to ensure that if if the journalist themselves is not available to carry on with the story, and it's it can be taken up by the organization, that the role of the journalist at least in terms of perception can be minimized for that for that particular story. So by lines withheld, etc. But finally, I think it's to just ensure that there is as loud as possible. A criticism and pushback against this kind of stuff.

Unknown Speaker

35:49

Fredo has a question

Speaker 5

35:52

for the same team as Eugene but my question is, I'm Freda sorry, from Sweden. And my question is about the push back, which I figure you know, will come harder in my soon. But how do you prepare your team around the complicated the article that ended with a report on how to handle the push back emotionally and among the facts? You have to defend maybe

Speaker 2

36:25

that's, that's a tough one. Because in as much as we can do risk assessments, we can prepare them for the push back at the end of the day. There's no accounting for especially and I'll speak to this one specifically, especially for what happens online and the kind of trolling etc. And the impact that it can have on you know, on an individual you try to be as, you know, you try to be as supportive as possible, but there are certain kinds of things that you can not prepare a journalist for. I think what you just need to do is be available to them as, as a leader, editorially, and show that that not only not just show you know, in person when you're with them, but in public that you support the work that they do that you stand by. One of my my former editors told me that an editor's job is two things, guidance, so to guide a journalist when they are going wrong, and protection. And what protection means is literally that that you must protect them when they are under attack, especially unfairly.

Speaker 1

37:36

I think this is also a good segue and I would love for you to share with our fellows and the audience as well John a story where for you as well, it was a tough spot when you were covering a story around Felicien Kabuga and there was around it. You know that that point out on that story? Tell us what happened because I was struck most by your observation that you were afraid this would then threw a bad light on all the other work you had done.

Speaker 2

38:06

Yeah, the Kapooka story was a doozy. So just for context, Felicien Kabuga the time that we were reporting was a generosity. From the Rwanda genocide he had been missing for 2418 years and no photograph. had been taking care of him for 18 years. And so when when one of our sources came up with one, you know, we shared it with auditors. We previewed the story multiple times, and then we ran the story only for it to have been proven to be a false photograph. I can tell you that. I won't speak too much about my own, sort of like, personal feelings about that. But the fact that we had those protocols in place where the story was, was previewed and previewed and preview, but also because I had a supportive editor. Also, because I had a supportive editor. Mike was able to retain my job and that's speaking to exactly what I was talking about, hardly not stood up for me, had they not protected me. We wouldn't even be having this conversation today. And it was really instructive. And really motivated me to know what my job would be. If ever it came down to protecting a journalist who made perhaps a well intentioned but bad mistake. Mitali I'm sorry. I think I only have time for one more question I have. I do apologize to everybody because we're supposed to be on for about an hour. But I am being called away now.

Speaker 1

39:44

I understand. And if that is the case, may I sort of take over the reins here and request Ronson to place his question for contexts. Jon Ronson is our fellow from Hong Kong who has faced not dissimilar circumstances as your son has been reporting as well. Against quite a bit of pushback ransom.

Speaker 6

40:02

Yeah. My question is simple with that with your your match about your story. I'm just concerned that

Speaker 7

40:10

was in the cannula that was getting your investigative report. Do you have any ways to protect the investigative reporters for example, some legal aid or assistance for you guys?

Speaker 2

40:28

If there's been assistance that come our way in terms of legal aid? That's what you asked me?

Speaker 1

40:34

Yeah. Volunteer Legal Aid or some kind of assistance? Reporters who are Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2

40:38

Yeah, yeah. There's various organizations that have been very helpful to us, the Committee to Protect Journalists, for instance, the East Africa chapter has always been supportive. There have been various nongovernmental organizations whose job it is to protect civil rights defenders that have looked at journalists as civil rights defenders that have stepped in and stood in the gap for us. There is a growing understanding that what journalism does is often at the nexus between perhaps private practice and public interest. And our journalists jobs are being seen increasingly as important to the democracy of our nation in our region. So that support is definitely there.

Speaker 1

41:25

You Yeah. John, we appreciate your time. Thank you for joining in. We have such a long list of questions. So we are on a screen for it to see you go. But I understand that you've got a packed schedule and it's been very, very good chatting with you.

Unknown Speaker

41:39

I'm so sorry. Yeah.

Speaker 1

41:41

I hope there's nothing for investigative journalists across. Most importantly, I think the importance of community something we try to really thank you again for your time.

Speaker 2

41:53

Thank you very much. Thank you to all of you guys. All of you fellows. I think you guys have a brilliant program. And please continue with encouraging these kinds of conversations. I think it's it's important that we stop and reflect many times as journalists, as Anthony and have a great, great day ahead. Bye.

Speaker 1

42:09

Thank you, John. And thank you, everyone who's logged on. I hope there's something to take away from this conversation. We will be back of course. Next Wednesday with another chat on our local journalism series.

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