Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.
Hi everyone. Welcome to the thoughtful counselor. My name is Mickey white. Today I'm here with Dr Kirsten Lucas Moe from clear life counseling and testing in coming Georgia. Kirsten, so glad to have you here with us.
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here,
so let's just go ahead and jump in. Tell me a little bit how you came to find yourself in the field of counseling. Walk us through your journey into becoming a counselor, being a doc student, being a professional, and now really owning your own practice.
Yeah, how much time we got? So I think probably, like most counselors, I have some familial experiences with mental health issues also, even with some narcissism running me in the family here and there, there's also been substance and use issues. So having witnessed and experienced what that's been like, it really especially as a kid, it made me think I might be able to do this a little bit better. I didn't feel like as a kid, I got the treatment that was helpful to me in any way, shape or form. It felt like a lot of the responsibility to be parentified was just put right back on me. And I didn't like that, and I thought that's not fair. That wasn't fair to me. It wasn't fair to my siblings, and frankly, I don't think it would be fair to other kids, and I work really hard not to allow those family dynamics to continue with children or families that I work with.
So it sounds like a lot of intentionality in wanting to break family cycles and disrupt family cycles, not only for yourself, but also to be an active part in helping challenge and disrupt those cycles for other families too, absolutely, and
I take pride in that kind of work, and it's still challenging for everybody. It's I know I challenge people around me constantly. I challenge myself, and sometimes it's exhausting, frankly, but then tomorrow's a new day, so you wake up and do it all over again.
So a lot of your experience and your current focus is serving survivors of interpersonal violence, particularly those who have experienced narcissistic abuse. Can you tell us a little bit about what constitutes narcissistic abuse and what should clinicians Be on the lookout for, so that we can recognize this, either in our clients or in the people our clients are around?
Yes. So abuse is abuse in general, right? But we can say that not all abusers are narcissists, but all narcissists are abusive, right? That doesn't that does mean that it can be in different variations across different relationships. One of the things about narcissistic abuse is that a lot of narcissists are so charming that they can portray really well another image to the rest of the world, and they can find themselves in incredibly successful positions of power, financially, successful, even religiously or spiritual. Spiritually, they will put themselves a lot of times in positions where they're looked up to, in various churches or temples or stuff like that, where it is a lot harder for a victim to prove, in my experience, narcissists true. Narcissists Not, not always, right? There's always an exception, but a lot of times, in my experience, the narcissists, their abuse, is so much more complex than just hitting somebody, the hitting is very cut and dry, right? There's a lot of coercion that happens, a lot of manipulation that. Happens they really the smarter they are, the more confusing and chaotic the home life can be. So that partner is often just emotionally and mentally beat down. And so that's that kind of touches on what you're looking for. As a clinician, you're listening for themes and patterns, right? It's always, all of our work is about the themes and patterns. These particular ones revolve around, like one, one thing I'm always listening for is, does my client, because, excuse me, like, especially and specifically, narcissists aren't usually the ones that come to my office. If they do, they last a session or two, they don't like me, they don't like feedback I have. They'll find any reason not to come back, right, especially if you catch on to what they're doing and try to address it in any way, shape or form, they're out right. They they want to protect themselves and what they're up to. So I'm typically sitting with someone who is a victim on their way to being a survivor, which I know we want to talk about that those terms as well. But one of the patterns definitely I'm listening for is around is there resolution to their arguments? A narcissist will never allow a resolution, and they may deflect incredibly to where one person might be saying, Hey, I don't feel like you respect me as a human being. I have a really hard time feeling valued, seen, heard, understood in any way, shape or form. And then the narcissist may retort with something so stupid, frankly and off the wall that's like, well, you don't dust, so I don't dust. So now I'm defensive about that, like I do everything else, right? And they, they throw the whole conversation off kilter constantly. So there's never resolution in any of the arguments or any of the attempts to try to get closer on the part of the person who's suffering the abuse, right? A narcissist. Another thing I'm looking for is like, how do they behave after a big argument or discussion? So I'll listen for like, and then what happened, right? And then what happened? And those are the clinical questions that I ask a lot of times, because I want to hear the full story around what did, how did my client respond? A lot of times they go to the room or somewhere private and they cry, pride themselves to sleep, while the narcissist is laughing, joking, like just complete switch of demeanor, instantly back to a state of homeostasis for them, right, while the other person is still completely dysregulated, confused, frustrated, sad, feels lonely, and the narcissist just moves on. So those that's one of the things that I really listen for. That is, to me, a hallmark of what could be narcissistic abuse.
So I'm hearing a lot of, like you mentioned, the themes and the patterns of a lot of manipulation, gas lighting, and then diverting, not only responsibility, but diverting the conversation entirely. And I imagine, from what I'm hearing, is there's, there's a normality for the narcissist and becoming very emotionally dysregulated and projecting different, different emotions, particularly, I imagine, probably anger or frustration, anger and contempt and being being very intentional about kind of throwing those out there, putting those out there, And then immediately switching, like you said, into their homeostasis, which it seems like this pattern is also part of that homeostasis for them, of that power and control. So
we call that supply right? When they're trying to get a reaction from somebody, they want a big reaction. They don't care what that reaction is, right? It can be very negative. It can be a lot of fuck yous and I hate you. I can't believe that you're treating me like this. It can be hugely negative. You can call that person names, and the the more I rate the victim or survivor becomes, the more calm the narcissist is, which is definitely another pattern we see, and I'm listening for constantly, is like, how are they responding to you when you're feeling so angry, because you'd expect some level of we both escalated until we realized we're doing too much, and then we tried to de escalate, or we took a break, or whatever, a narcissist, however, will try to continue to pick at the other party cons. Until they have exploded. They done lost their mind, right? They feel outside of themselves, and that's how they'll describe it, a lot of times, is like, I don't even recognize myself. I have never felt so angry. I have never talked to someone like that, or acted this way or thrown something at them. And when that person flips their lid, then the narcissist is content and more calm and happier they get that supply from people around them.
What purpose? What purpose does that serve like? Why do you think they they kind of experience that contentment and calm down once the other person has exploded?
Um, that's a really good question, and I don't know the science behind that. I know that it's abnormal, though, right? Like, we, we just, we normally. We have mirror neurons, right? And so if you're upset, I'm getting upset, even if I'm not feeling what you're feeling, right? Like, I'm I'm not in your fight. But when we have mirror neurons, we do start feeling more of like, that same emotion in the room, kind of like, read the room, figure things out, right, adjust accordingly. But a narcissist doesn't really do that, because narcissists are very they're different than just being selfish, right? It's not the same as, like, I'm hugging the covers every night, and like, get your own blanket. That's rude, right? We wouldn't like that. But that's not necessarily narcissistic abuse. The narcissistic abuse happens at every level for people who are victims of it, especially in interpersonal relationships, because they can be bosses and co workers and every, every other friends and all that, they can be all kinds of different relationships. But I've lost myself a little bit in that question.
I think, I think I was wondering if it, if it plays into that, if I can make somebody else explode, then regardless of what I've done, my behavior isn't the same degree. And so that's also a way to potentially escape accountability or avoid accountability.
I think that's definitely true, and the power and control in that and then watching somebody, there's a lot of the dynamic too, of like, watching somebody else flip out and lose their shit, right? And then be like, Huh? Look how you are, right? Look what you've done. You're the crazy one, and that person feels crazy like, maybe I am the crazy one, because I don't act like this. This is not my norm. I don't like to be like this. Why am I like this? And then now also, narcissists need that dis imbalance of their in their partnership. They need the partner to be dysregulated, because someone who's regulated can think clearly and can also think of escapes, like I am getting out of this. But when you're constantly dysregulated around your partner, when you're constantly thinking of and we're talking about people who have children, sometimes that makes everything more complicated, as far as willingness to leave and how you could navigate that, they also have the power and control dynamic and financial situations. A lot of times, for families, they'll take all the money and be the one responsible for it. Sometimes the partner won't even have access to the bank accounts. And it's not because they agreed to it necessarily, or they love that about it, but sometimes it's coercion. So I think that that big power play comes into effect there too, when someone is is experiencing that kind of fight or discussion in a relationship, and watching somebody else lose their mind brings them joy, because they're like, you're exactly I got you exactly where I want you I want you dysregulated. Because if we think about it, we're not flamingos, right? I always think of it this way, like if, if you and I are standing up and I have my feet firmly planted on the floor, and I used to do kickboxing, I know a good fighting stance, but then I make you stand on one leg and put your hands behind your back. How much easier is that for me to knock you around and do what I feel like I need to do way easier, right? And that's what a narcissist does, is like they start chopping you, your legs off at the knees, and making it so hard for you to like, how do I stand up for myself when I don't even know what we're talking about anymore? Like, I want to be closer to you. I want resolution in our relationship. I want this partnership or marriage or whatever to work and the other person is attacking constantly and constantly trying to make sure that the partner cannot be regulated. There's also lack of sleep that plays into that too, because narcissists will also use that and weaponize people who don't get enough sleep, and they'll keep them up all night to make. Sure, like there are lots of little tools in their tool belts that they use to really keep people dysregulated. And like I said, when people are dysregulated, we know scientifically, we're not able to think clearly. We don't have as much oxygen to our brains, and we don't have the right chemicals to access that left hemisphere to really think clearly and logically and use reason. And when we can't do that, we can't make escape plans. And that's what a narcissist really wants. Is there is no escape. You're going to stay here forever,
right? Again, continuing, continuing to hold that control and to to take opportunities and create opportunities to maintain power, maintain control. So you you mentioned we we come back around to it, and you're right. So when we're using language of survivor and language of victim, how do you differentiate those? What does that look like and what what is the importance of that language? Like I know the language is important. I'm sure our listeners know the language is important, but how does that importance of language show up with your work?
Yeah, so I think that's a great question, and I am generally quite intentional in choosing my words. Now, there's no right or wrong way. There's no hard and fast rule about using those terms and how to use them, but generally I use victim when I'm really talking about someone still in it, and they feel like a victim, and I don't, I personally don't think it's fair. Now, if a client calls themselves a survivor, I will call them a survivor, but I don't personally think it's fair to call them that because they don't feel like a survivor. They're in it. They're barely surviving. A lot of times there's so much secrecy going on, it doesn't feel like they're in a space just to claim that, if that makes sense, so I feel like that kind of does a disservice to the actual meeting someone where they're at like you're still being victimized actively by this person. It's not fair to be like, hey while you're in the middle of a shark attack, you're a survivor, though, right? It feels kind of trite to me, right? And it's not, I know I can see how some people might say, well, that's empowering them, and that's okay. Everyone can have their own thing. I don't make my clients follow one way or the other about how they refer to themselves, but that, in my mind, is how I differentiate when someone is a survivor, then I do think of them more as like they're getting they're getting their stability back, you know, getting back on both legs. They're not they're no longer with arms behind their back and one leg up. They they get both legs down and their arms are at least untied. Um, so that's, that's really kind of how I think about it, because that's truly empowering to be in that spot and to figure out next steps and next moves and like, get that mental clarity so that you could even have a chance to try to get out and survive and make a plan. And again, I'm thinking of, often people who have children to consider as well, which makes it so much more complicated, legally, to get out and financially, you can't just sleep on a couch when you have your children with you. You have to have actual housing. And a lot of parents really want that, right? Like, I want to move to a next stable thing, not to like, a shelter, if I can help it, or my friend's couch, it's not suitable for children, leaving one situation a lot of times. Like, that's not the long term solution, if you know what I'm
saying. So yeah, when? And it also is a very real experience, a differentiated experience, like you mentioned earlier, of physical abuse, is pretty cut and dry in terms of even just what even what resources are available to folks who experience physical abuse, but emotional financial like that, kind of abuse and control is harder to legally, quote, unquote, prove, and that also limits the resources that are available
for sure, even sexual coercion is harder to prove, and that happens all the time, right? And also in a lot of states and places, women are seen as legal property, right? And you can't be raped in your own marriage, although you certainly can be and so that's another point of humiliation for a lot of people. Is like, how do I even tell people what? What they're not going to believe me, this is so weird, but they're my husband, they're my wife, they're my whatever. That's a that's another power and control. Thing and a nebulous, difficult thing to legally prove. And if you're married legally to somebody, right, it's like, oh, well, we can see that that wasn't consensual, but that doesn't matter because you're married.
Yeah, and there, there have been some states, more states, up until this point that have changed some of those laws, but that's also something for clinicians and for folks to consider moving forward, is those laws not changing, or those laws being stripped or changed back, and knowing, I imagine, knowing what the laws where you're practicing are is one way that is or something that is necessary when you're working with these clients, it is,
and if you don't know and to have relationships with family law attorneys is important because we don't I also am really careful. I don't want to speak on behalf of the legal system, of what someone can do. So getting in your community and networking is incredibly important to try to at least meet somebody who you feel like you can have not only a referral relationship with, but also just that relationship professionally, where you're like, Hey, can I call you or text you sometime if I have questions, I don't want to leave my clients incorrectly and laws change, you know, and I wouldn't know that's not my job to keep on top of that, necessarily. So even having some kind of legal Resource Center or whatever through a domestic violence shelter might be really helpful to a clinician to be like, how do I refer this client for legal advice? Because I can't really give that right. The the worst case scenario is you tell them something wrong, and that's terrible, right? That would feel awful, right? And it can impact their their custody of their kids, or their future, or how they get things split in the divorce, if that's the case, right? Like there, there's so many things that, like, I'm not trying to get into that. I'm not trying to impact somebody that way. So I always look for a legal person. But you're right. It is important to generally know the laws in the states in which you live. It is also really important to understand, to know people who
do and and I hear both pieces of that, and I appreciate that also recommendation, and not only recommendation, but kind of a call to action of like, create these referral sources, create these community connections. You know counselors, it's very easy to become siloed in your own practice and not be connected to your community, and that's not what a lot of clients need. A lot of clients also need community connections. So I really appreciate that kind of emphasis on know the people that you can get support from, but also know the people that you can send your clients to.
Yes, I'm a big advocate of social justice and one of the best things I've done in my career is to get outside of counseling in the sense of broadening my network. I just had a client before this, and they were talking about something they needed a reference for, and I said, Hey, I have a referral for. And I said, Hey, I have, I have someone who does social security disability law, would you like their contact information? They were like, Dr Kirsten, you know everybody. You know somebody for everything. And I was like, that is the highest compliment I feel like I have received in a long time, because I'm like, that's what I'm here for. How can I advocate for you in social justice or anything else, and I don't know anybody. I don't have any referrals, you know? I don't have any sources. That's not a good book.
Yeah, get out into your community. Know, know those people for sure.
And I want to say this because I wish that someone had told me this as a young clinician, that that can there are so many networking groups in the world. I didn't know. I did not know, and so try to find them. Look for networking groups in your community. There's one that I am personally part of which I'm not advocating everyone should be part of it, but it's called BNI business networking International. I wasn't I joined it because I wasn't really even sure that I get referrals from it or anything. That's the idea of this particular networking group. But they teach you how to network. That's so much better. I never knew, right? I'm a very it's a skill. It is a skill, and people want that. When you meet them at a networking event, they're looking for connections. I don't know if other counselors could maybe relate, but I'm pretty sure they can. I always felt like, well, they don't really want me to call them. They don't really like that. Was very nice to meet them, but they're not going to remember me. And then stepping into who I am, was like, yeah, they will remember me, and if they don't, it's okay. I'll remind. Find them like I'm not that forgettable, and just owning that part of myself. And also, frankly, when I put my clients first in my mind about it, it changes the whole game for me. I'm like, this isn't a Kirsten thing. This is much bigger than me. This could potentially help hundreds of people I see, if not more. So I need to do this, and then it just like doors open, left and right. People want that kind of relationship. So I just want to encourage any younger counselors, or older counselors, anyone in any part of your career, start networking, if you haven't, get out of your own field and network with other professionals. That's my spiel on that, and that's important, I think, in any line of work, but especially when you're working with people who need resources, like people trying to flee from domestic violence or interpersonal violence, you don't have those resources. All you're doing is, you know, churning wheels and like, good luck to you. Now, this is your homework to find this is what I feel like, right? It's like now your homework is to find some of the resources for yourself, and that's also dangerous, because having materials and resources at their fingertips means the abuser can also see a lot of times, their social media stuff, what they're looking up, their search histories, any pamphlets in written documents that you might provide for a Client. If the client has it, then the abuser might too, and that's where it becomes very dangerous, because you don't want an abuser to know your plan when you're leaving, or to know that you even understand what's happening. So as a clinician, it's really important to protect your clients in that way and have those very open conversations that I know I'm giving you this resource. Are you writing it on a piece of paper? Like, what are we doing with that? Right? Because we do a lot of telehealth too, so we got to know, like, what is happening where? What are you going to do with that? Do you have a shredder after you call? Do they have access to your phone logs? Will they look through them? Our job is to be protective of somebody in ways that really help support them tangibly, no more nebulousness Right from us,
especially in a situation where everything feels and is intentionally kept so nebulous, having those concrete referrals, having those concrete skills, having these concrete things to be able to offer clients, sounds like a something that not only is necessary, but something that clinicians need to get more comfortable With.
I would totally agree.
So I'm I'm curious, talking about kind of the the helplessness that folks that are still in active abuse are feeling, and kind of feeling ungrounded or unmoored, and our job as clinicians is to hold space for our clients, and not just to hold space, but also to treatment plan and to move towards treatment goals and things like that. And I really appreciate how you've spoken to recognizing abusive patterns, kind of broaching that a little bit with clients, what you can provide clients and how you can support them. How can clinicians support themselves, especially when so many of us come into this field with our own wounds and our own experiences, that we want to do something better. We want to be able to offer something. How do we maintain that therapeutic care and concern, along with the therapeutic distance that also protects ourselves and not lose ourselves or become overly invested in something that is really, really difficult to work with.
Yeah, that that's such an easy question to answer, right? No problem. Yeah, I
figured it'll be a 32nd spiel, and then it'll all be, all be good, right?
So it's a great question, and it is probably similar to what others before me have said, right? It's, it is a lot of self awareness. I do some deep breathing when I start feeling like, Oh, I'm actually feeling your anxiety. I'm not just aware of it, right? I'm feeling your pain. I'm not just aware of it. Um, I do ground myself more in the session. I know you and I had worked with our therapy animals in the program when we were doc students and master student, and I still have a therapy animal now that helps with the vicarious trauma a little bit. Um. Yeah, and when I when I really feel like I'm taking on too much, I literally do those reminders of like I can't work harder than the client. Also, respecting the process is incredibly important in any kind of interpersonal violence. Work is to understand that this is a years long thing. Some people, I mean, it's sometimes it sounds shitty to say, but it's the truth. If there is physical violence, it's easier to prove and it's easier to say. This gets worse and worse. Now, a lot of times, the physical violence might start when someone's trying to leave a narcissist, or it may ramp up even for any regular abuser as well. So it's important to remember that this is a cycle and a process. The victim or survivor is the only person. They are the expert, ultimately, and they're the only person who can decide with any real hypothesis that could be accurate, like, when is the best, safest time for me to leave? We can talk about that in therapy, and we can, we, like, make guesses, and I wonder this, and I wonder that, and we can make a plan. Are there cameras in the house? Do we need to turn off the power do we need? Like, what do we need to do to make sure you safely get out? What would be in your way from that question to When they actually leave? Could be years, right? You might have a physical plan of like, you'll get your friends, you'll turn off the cameras, you'll do this, you'll do that. You'll execute Get What You Can GTFO right? However, they have to make sure that they are protecting their lives. A lot of times, the lives of their children or their family members might have been threatened at this point. There are lots of other factors going into this that we want to address and understand as a clinician, and that also helps a lot of times, I think a clinician maintain that distance of like this is not for me to push this client to change in this way. A lot of times, what we want to see when you're working with a narcissist, a person who's got experiencing narcissistic abuse, is insight. I want to teach you skills how to manage your life and get through your day a little bit easier. I want to teach you about gray rocking, which is where we just don't give any supply, keep our answers dry. You'll see and you'll notice specifically, you I'm talking about Mickey too, because you would notice, you know, that I'm more like loud and bubbly and whatever, right? And so if I'm around a narcissist, you'll see me deadpan. And so if I think someone's a narcissist, that's what you're going to see from me, and you're gonna be like, Oh, okay, but that's, that's what I want to teach my clients. I want to practice those skills with them, because the more they're able to do that, the more stability they have internally. So this is not a question you asked quite yet, but I think it is important to understand that the big dynamic we see with people who end up being victimized by narcissists is that they are generally completely empathetic people. They can be incredibly smart. They normally are. They are normally wonderful, empathetic, loving people, and that's why they get caught up with a narcissist, because they often end up making excuses and like, Oh, I understand you kind of exploded because of your childhood, and you're going to get better. I know that because I got better too, like, I used to get angry sometimes, and now I've learned these coping skills and things like that, right? They give them a lot of credit, a lot of the doubt, a lot of understanding, and that gets weaponized against them, right? There are things that we hear often from the mouth of a narcissist like you, of all people should understand, right? And that's just weaponizing your own strengths against you and cutting you down. But when you understand the complexities of narcissistic abuse and how enmeshed they get in someone's life and head and heart, then and bank account, right like there's so much more to to that whole story and process, to be able to, like, I'm going to have the patience here. This takes years to get out right, and that helps me create some more therapeutic distance between me and the client too. Is like, I my agenda is to keep you safe, and if safety right now means you stay with this person for another multiple years, then we're let's try to navigate how to keep you as safe as possible in that situation. Yeah, right, and that's the truth of it, because it's not, it's not something that's like, Just pack up and go. That's not real sick. And like I said before, that can have real and terrible consequences for someone as. Especially if we're considering custody at all of an animal, even remind just
children and it, it occurs to me, as you've been talking as well, that there's a potential for a parallel process that we don't want to recreate, where by trying to push or getting overly frustrated or overly investing, we are actually then infringing on the autonomy of our clients. Well true, and that it's actually a very therapeutically facilitative to return that autonomy and encourage that responsibility and autonomy with the clients for what they need, because they know themselves best, even even when they're struggling, like our clients, know themselves best. They just need support. Part of our job is helping them discern what that means for them,
right? And they will often come in hoping that you'll tell them what to do, because wouldn't that be easier, a little bit right? Like, that's like, I need help. I need you to think for me, why we go back to the brain? They're all in the right brain. They're dysregulated. They're not able to think clearly, because that's where the narcissist keeps them constantly. And I'm talking phone calls, the narcissists are incredibly invasive to people, and they don't allow you to have a moment to yourself, because then they start to lose that power and control. I find that it's most empowering to keep returning that responsibility. Right is like, I couldn't possibly tell you what to do. We can talk about plans and ideas, but the reality is, like, your ego has to be so small. I couldn't possibly know. I don't know the whole scenario. I can make guesses about the themes and patterns, but I couldn't possibly know, like, the intricacies of where are the kitchen knives? Are you safe if you have that conversation there? I don't know until we talk about it and you determine, no, I don't think this person would ever use a knife on me. I feel safe there. Okay, right? I couldn't have known that if I'm not having the conversation, or at least making sure that I am constantly giving, returning that, giving that back to them, and they don't even understand how much they know at that time, if that makes sense to you, because they're so dysregulated, yeah. And
you're almost, you're almost kind of prompting them to uncover their own like inner resources and that well of well of reserve and strengths, yes,
and that's what I want, right? Like a true right? It's like you already have it there. Let's dig deeper and get there. That does mean co regulating with you, but that does not mean me grabbing you by the hand. Right? Your hand. I'll come alongside you, but I'm not going to pull you with me anywhere.
Yeah, so I'm, I'm curious, as we're kind of wrapping up today, what, what else has come up for you and our conversation that you really want listeners to know?
Honestly, so so much. I think it's really important to have some kind of supervisor or colleague that you could talk to, if possible, or debrief about things at minimum, because you know, private practice can be very isolating at minimum to like, take a moment and really think about your client and conceptualize them to make sure that you are keeping yourself in check. But going back to the having a supervisor or a mentor or a colleague, it's not just to debrief. If you're not familiar with this, this kind of interpersonal violence, it is something that needs to be studied, because a lot of times I have seen people with very good intentions trying to help someone in a situation like this. But it can go very badly, very quickly, if you don't have the other knowledge about the timing and the timeline and the all the the variables in someone's life that make their movement make sense to you, right? Um, very much. Want to get a whole picture of this person in context, because, again, when they're saying, when they're poo, pooing, all your ideas about, well, what if this? What if that? What if we did this, what if you did that, and they're like, that won't work. That won't work. Don't get frustrated. You have to lean into that. Help me understand that. Why won't that work? You have to believe them, believe the abuse happened, and then believe the reasons. Why not? Why can't I leave yet? They don't have to be. Reasons you would leave or not leave, they have to be reasons they would leave or not leave, right? And it takes time, because they're the things that are most important to them have been weaponized against them by this narcissist for likely years. There are people who stay in those relationships for decades before they start to really realize what it is. So it's a very long process, generally speaking, and it does require additional training, if not training, at least additional skills practice and discussions and consultations with someone who's been doing this for a while. So that's definitely something I would want to leave on the table for any clinician who works with someone with interpersonal violence. If you're not well versed in it, you may do a lot more damage than good, even if you're I mean, unless you're doing only basic skills and reflecting things back and stuff like that. I mean, you can do a lot of damage by having someone try to take responsibility, for example, for the abuse, or focusing a lot on their reactive abuse, where, you know, right? Like, I said, this is not me. I threw something at their head and like, yeah, that's reactive abuse. You're reacting normally to an abnormal situation, right?
And it you mentioned, like, doing a lot more harm than good. And one thing I like, I want to kind of bring out and be kind of upfront about, in that, from what I'm hearing, and also just some of my own experience, clinically, of you can do a lot more harm than good that's physical or emotional or like safety related harm in that way. Yes, but you can also do a lot of harm where, if your client doesn't feel supported by you, or they don't feel like they're being heard, or they're experiencing a parallel cycle or a parallel process, where they're feeling gas lit by you and also feeling gas lit by their abuser, they may not come back and they may no longer trust therapy. It's
true, there's a lot of responsibility on someone's shoulders when they are providing therapy to someone who is a victim of interpersonal violence.
And it doesn't mean for for folks listening to run away from it, or to avoid it, or to to not go there, but also it's, it's something to be very intentional about, yeah,
just like everything else in our field, you can get good at it, right? There's nothing to run from. You just have to know what you're running into and what you're running alongside. It would be foolish to do anything with any degree of specialty without that kind of mindset of like, I can get good at this, I can do well at this. I just need to lean into it.
Well. Kirsten, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a wonderfully enlightening and I think, very helpful conversation. I
sure hope so. Thank you so much for having me.
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