What we're doing is unlocking value in projects and communicating that value. We see a little bit of a gap in the market of how architects could do that.
Hello, and welcome to the Business of Architecture UK. I'm your host, Ryan Willard. And today I had the great pleasure of visiting again, white red architects, this time in their new studio or not. So new studios down in Clerkenwell, you may remember back in 2018, Dickey Lewis and Joe hair, were one of the first ever guests that we actually had here on Business of Architecture UK. So it was brilliant to be visiting them again, four or five years later, and to see what they have created, because it's really, really quite exciting and extraordinary. So, Dickey co founded white red architects in 2014, unifying the large scale public experience of his fellow directors into an energetic practice in exciting projects in the UK and internationally. Joe is responsible for fostering the studio's design culture. And prior to co founding white red architects, Joe worked at Hawkins Brown, and a hm M, where he completed the A E LP fitness center, worked with Google on their offices in Kings Cross and deliver 20 fahrenden road for Derwent London. Dickie himself was previously at Foster and partners where he worked on a variety of projects from concept designs, such as the competition when of four to five Park Avenue office tower in New York, which actually remember when Rs, HP went up for that, and there was a lot of competition between the two offices, very good project, he worked on the competition wins of McLaren production center, right through to the delivery of the technical design stage for document airport in Panama. So this was a it was an absolute pleasure to be sitting down with Dickey and Joe, both of them are really, really switched on as those who was the third partner who wasn't interviewed this time. But was was there in the background and his influence as well in the business can't be understated. But to sit down with Dickey and Joe, so, so inspiring, we talk a lot about their tremendous success since the last interview, you know, how they've approached winning work and pipeline building, what sorts of activities have they been doing, it's really good to see how they've just really focused on the business aspects of their organization. And to grow from when I interviewed them, they were, they were three people, maybe with a few contractors, to now, the team of 20 or so that they have in their in their office. You know, we spoke a little bit about how they utilize mentors and advisors and consultants and experts to support their growth. And we look at how they have kind of taken a financial lens and made sure that they are monitoring those important numbers all the time in their business. So loads and loads of really great, informative stuff here, sit back, relax and enjoy white red architects. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how we might be able to help you please follow the link in the information. Joe Dickey Welcome back to The Business of Architecture. How are you both great. It's
great to be here five years.
I know amazing. It's mad. I can't I can't believe that. And it wasn't that long ago when Joe and I were sitting in the Hoxton. Yes, I was about to leave. Hmm, was 12
Yes, yeah, that was a very different time. So it's really
incredible what you guys have accomplished in the last five years since 2018. You're one of our early podcasts. And we're sitting here in your beautiful studio, stylish studio with a team of 20 strong here in the center of Shoreditch. And when we first spoke, I think it was just you too, and and, as always, and yeah, it's been what what a journey, I mean, this is difficult thing to do for for a practice to kind of go from the startup position and just move out of that kind of three person micro practice type of thing that can be a 20 year process. So I guess the first question is, you know, how did you do it? What have been some of the real key strategic moves or keys to success or opportunities, strokes of luck flukes?
So I think I mean, at that time, particularly when we recorded a podcast review, we were prioritizing business development and how we could attract clients, that was almost our first problem. And that was the beginning of our journey really of, of really taking that business development side of things really seriously, and trying to strategize. So we'd probably say, that's our key that helps us to sustain the level of growth combined, of of to matter of other things. But that's the fundamental.
We were talking about pipelines, I think we're watching that video back. And that was like a totally novel concept. Certainly, for me, we're just getting my head around. What does this even mean? And I mean, essentially, we were trying to systemize it. So we could focus on what we wanted to do, which is design buildings. And we realized how little we knew about running a business and how much we had to learn. What
was some of the key things that you know, well, the key challenges that you've overcome, or things that you had to learn and get grasp on pretty quick,
a meeting people is probably a massive one. I mean, your network is obviously, so important. And you don't realize how little your network is, when you're working on big jobs for another practice. You don't know. I mean, there's great people probably that you, you know, but you don't realize the value of potential or how you actually need that if you need to, if you're building a business. So just getting to meet people was probably the biggest thing and the right people
as well, we kind of ran around a bit, yeah, tested the waters by reading about this development really about prospecting and putting it into action, but a bit of a slapdash way. So that does come back to bite you because it doesn't align with your goals. And you learn quite quickly that potentially you're being pulled in a direction by your clients that you're bringing, well, this
is what often happens is that you're when a few projects or most practices startup, you're forced to do a bit of business development, because frightened about not making huge payment and kids, and all that kind of stuff. And there's a bit of activity where you go outside of your comfort zone when a few projects. Yeah, and then just live off kind of referrals. But yeah, been a perpetual state of frustration, because it's exactly just the same. Yes, that's coming back. So
it's unpredictable. Yeah, exactly. Depends on it. As soon as the other thing that anxiety or that fear or that constant discomfort, of not having predictable pipeline means you can't focus on making what you do better, you can't make a business that does good output, which is the architecture we're doing. So I have to make this more predictable, we have to make this better quality, as well as the quality opportunities. So we had to sort of focus on shoring up that part of the business first,
and strategizing. We took time, just to say, let's just pause a little bit and sit down together and do some homework of who is that we want to work with? And who do we want to start speaking to? Where do they network? Where do they speak to? Who are the other consultants that work with them, or speak to them and learn more about indirectly, and it was a really interesting process, because quite quickly, you start hearing the same names again, and and you can't believe that you didn't know who they were only a few months ago. But now you're you're kind of on the top of your list. And maybe you've been speaking to them. Yeah. So it was that strategy moment that was really useful for us and the more recent, what
was the process like that it actually kind of understanding the landscape that you wanted to operate in? How did what was what did it actually look like you guys sitting down at their school,
we did a lot of cold calling, right,
which was very uncomfortable.
We went to a lot of events, we went to a lot of events that we realized were probably a waste of time, we went to a lot of events that we realized, gosh, we should have found this earlier. And we realized regularity at these were really important. And we slowly built familiarity. And you would meet people and take a chance certainly when you didn't really understand what their role was in the process, take a chance and get to know how they worked in the industry and also how they saw what we did. That was a really important part of it was actually the mirror back to us. totally flipped our perspective on what we thought architecture was within the within that whole process of getting buildings built.
And then internally researching, so we had a system we set up on an app where we started collating the data. Yeah, we started looking into the projects we liked and then who is working on those who is the client who's the m&e engineer who's the pm mapping, mapping out those consultants or
reverse engineering Exactly. This is the sort of project you want to have who were the team players? Yeah, and
the reverse engineers exact word for it because it almost felt like this is a bit pointless because the ship has sailed have it on these. So why would you do that? But more often than not, these are the types of clients that have a repeat pipeline, studying
how the that game essentially unfolded.
Were there certain set Was that you put more emphasis on or that were you kind of like, you know, we definitely want to be resi or
scattergun to begin with, was totally scattergun. But what's been interesting is, he always had a lot of commercial experience, based on our previous experience. You said he started doing quite a bit of hospitality. Yeah,
hotels, hospitality was an avenue we started down and Joe, obviously, lots of commercial experience. But we were also picking up a lot of residential restaurants and
little, little restaurants.
Whereas that, that then led us to say, Okay, let's start working out what our sector is. And we realized that our strength was in the commercial field, with the element of hospitality, and they really worked well together. So it really helps us to focus that research and that
when you're approaching some of these clients, perhaps, who have kind of been working with other architects and who are kind of well established in themselves, and you were like, the the young guns, how do you negotiate a place at the table? And particularly if they've already got strong relationships with other practices? How do you kind of, you know, move your way up the list of people that they should be speaking with
your building, as many positive touch points with those people as possible. And it takes time. And you might get introduced and do a bit of free work to visibility, you might just give a different opinion, you might meet over six or seven times. And I remember reading that book recently about the seven touch points, and someone has to spend seven hours with you before they really commit to spending, what obviously fees architecture needs to be, you're building up time with those people. And as a result, you're building up trust, and they're getting to know you. And they're getting positive reinforcement from other people around, which is why it was so important studying those calling them games, but studying like that jobs happens, they work with these people. But we're starting to establish ourselves with those consultants as well. And then, therefore, the end client is supposed to the target is getting positive reinforcement. And so as a result, every day, it's more likely that you would be a viable option for them. So it's
one thing to like, kind of reach out to a new target client and say, Hi, we're down the road or when we're white, red architect, yeah. Like, you know, how do you what kind of what's the nature of the communication that you that you use to follow up and not being, you know, you're not going to lie or behest to being someone who's even leaving a person?
It's good question, well, maybe I don't know. I'm
sure there is an element of like, yeah,
we're very self conscious. But we also realize that it does take it doesn't, you got to be persistent to stand. And you've got to think you've got something to some value to give. And we're more confident in our products. And what we do every every day, I think you mentioned that mix between workspace in hospitality, I actually think we're quite uniquely placed to be deliver because what we also do occupy a lot of Occupy work with Virgin and with Google. So you're getting a really nice mix of voices that are all having a really positive effect on what office can be. That's got that hospitality, there's got that sort of forward thinking, staff retention, and stop attracting, we've got all of those ideas coming together. And we've got something of value to offer. And we should get that message out there. So it doesn't feel like you're bothering them, because you've got something to
give. Yeah, it's also less about us against them. And displaying solely and more about the actual project team, the wider project team and project managers, quantity surveyors, all of the different fields come together and you realize the project as a team. Yeah. And that, for example, a project manager needed good architects to be by their side as much as the client does. So it's less about the direct route of straight to the client boardroom of the client. To be honest, it's more about the community of consultants. Okay, which really helped us to chill out a bit without having to try and just feel stressed offline. Yeah,
it's not it's not my enduring in bringing the same client after a couple of weeks and saying going to work. Yeah,
know exactly.
Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, eventually, if you have a project manager and quantity, were both singing praises of good architects. Eventually, that client might also say, hey, this also speaks to them. And that's the preferable route, which really helped us and also helps us learn keep learning about who to work with, because yeah, that was the longest time as much as internal research we did. As soon as you go outside and start speaking to the people that got the boots on the ground and working with the clients, then it is a different story sometimes.
But how did you learn to qualify who was going to be right kind of for you versus not? And was that more? You know, there was a lot of trial and error and A lot of trial and error, we still are.
Yeah, but you spend time with people. And you also, because you're talking about things that matter to you and your experience and what you're trying to do, you're talking to people that you can see a more or less aligned, the more time you spend, the more you you know, and you do projects together, and you push those ideas forward. Where, you know, it's instinctively you find people that that are kind of aligned with what we're trying to do with the team. Yeah.
What about in terms of your own personal leadership? So going from working just the three of you, yeah, now to building up a team, and how working now you know, you've got as masterfeeds other people's mortgages to take off. And there's benefits and stuff that comes with a whole load of its own challenges and what worked last year for three people, it might have worked faster with three, four or five, and then all of a sudden, there's a breakdown of processes and systems that are effective. And now you've got a team of 20. Yeah, what's that process been like? Well, it's
why you know, the concept of the business is so important, and why building the business responsibly, is a really key part to producing creative work. And that's something that we have always been focused on is that entrepreneurial mindset of, I've actually also combining that with being an architect, so important. So a lot of it for us has been leaning on mentors, and people that have done it before, there's a lot of wealth of knowledge out there. And it's about learning as quickly as we can. And also, with our team being quite open and honest, that we are also still learning. And you know, why read is something that's in progress, it's a really exciting thing to be part of. It's not the complete package yet. But that's almost a really exciting attribute to. So there's, there's an element of that during our growth. And we think that's what makes it exciting. But obviously, it's all learning constantly, as
well. So I think it's sharing particularly more recently, sharing that responsibility a bit more within the team of We're building something. Yeah, and it isn't perfect. No practices ever, you know, no, businesses are perfect, but it's changing. And it's in flux. And it's for the three of us to input on, but it's for us all to input on and make it work and getting clear on what the core goals are obviously really important. But then saying, Oh, how do we make that work as a team, so getting the right support in managing the studio, getting the right support in managing the projects, managing the materials, managing the way that we talk to clients, all of that stuff we're working together on, which is nice, and it's shared. One
of the things that lots of architecture practices struggle with, and probably the biggest inhibitor to growth is never really relinquishing the cap of the architect. Yeah, I'm wearing the hat of the business owner. And the way that that often manifests itself is, you know, architects don't do marketing and prospecting. And they mean, the fact that use the word prospect is like puts you aside 90% of most architecture practices. And I hate to say that it's you know, and I was saying to you earlier, sometimes, if I'm advising on marketing, for architects to how to differentiate yourself, and one of the actual easiest things is just do some marketing. Some prospects, most contemporaries aren't, but there's a reason for that. I mean, there's kind of cultural reasons and business aversion. And there's also, most architecture firms and practice owners get really deeply embedded into project. Yeah, work and delivery, that they can never pull themselves out of that, in order to be able to go and do the high value work of marketing and sales. How have you been able to ride that tension? Yeah, how does it work? How do you always
we still have I mean, we have that I mean, I, we've, we're all guilty of getting too swallowed by? Yeah. But I would say we've got architecture is a fantastic thing you touched so many people, you that the process is, is incredibly complicated. But you can, you can do real good with it. And when you focus all of that energy on one project, you can have a great project that if you could focus that energy on a on apply the same processes to a business, Scott said, it's got the same, it's the same same working pieces, but you can have a far bigger impact. And if you feel like you've got good to give, then then try and focus on a bigger picture. And that's where I think we've probably said that the business is our most important creative projects.
And I think there's an element within architecture that the traditional way of an architect completing a project or clients come running because it's so beautiful. It's not relevant in today's industry. And the way we approach marketing is not in the traditional architecture sense where you wait to finish your project, take great photos of it, and just post about yourself. And we think that within the team framework have collaborators or project managers and the rest of the team. We add value in our way, and marketing is about how we communicate that communicating that value along the way, shining the spotlight Not just on ourselves on the project or on the problem. And so that's where it's a really interesting Outlook to use marketing, which is, you know, a dirty word in architecture. But all it is, is really communicating how we can add value genuinely. And, and that's really exciting. And then if you can get in that mindset, it's really, really interesting to build on. Do you work
with outside consultants, like marketing consultants and PR consultants to kind of help? Or are we have we,
and we're probably, you know, not briefing them, right. And it took us to do probably about a year and a half's worth worth of researching, which, you know, there's plenty of material out there in other industries of marketing and what other industries do. And, and we learn a lot about how we can incorporate that with an architecture and there's not many practices doing it. And so we're really excited. And it's also just beginning, we're at the moment, we still are in the kind of traditional business development prospecting mode. And we're trying to overlay that with also communicating what this great studio is the great people within it, and the value that we add to our projects. And that is the marketing that we're trying to get go on that do
you find yourself being this is a bit this is what you're describing is very kind of proactive approach to client acquisition. And you know, we're has so many issues in practice about clients will often develop a brief and have an idea of what they want the architect to fit into in terms of budget and what their role is. And then they kind of public go public of like, now we need an architect, yeah. And then you've got this problem of, well, now you're bidding against a whole load of people, when you've got to squeeze yourself into Whatever the ill defined hole is that they've created, usually with the help a lawyer and finance guy, who are probably not the best people to be, you know, strategizing all the time around this kind of things. Have you found then that you're getting involved in these higher level strategic conversations with clients that that then needs to work and you can bypass some of the competition routes? So you still take the traditional route of applying for? I think it's both
we are because you're all about prospecting and talking to people and getting to know each other. Yeah, they've got an idea of who we are, in a way, that's the direct marketing that we want to replace with the with the material and the content that we're producing. Yeah. But even when that lawyer inspired pitch comes through the door, we because of the way we're approaching marketing, and we do with thinking about that differently, and we actually present something back that might be slightly different, because you're, you're trying to analyze it from their perspective, what we're trying to do together as a team, what does this building really want to be? You said this, that actually, and we can give you this, but actually wouldn't be wouldn't be a really, really nice opportunity to do this, there's huge value here on this building can do this for you. And then you're actually, you're not critiquing the brief, you're trying to stand with them in the position when they wrote it. And that's been and then I think that sort of sets out the project really nicely. Because the pitch actually then changes from being a competition to a moment when we all of us a team get excited about an idea that we all have co authored. And then it can change over time. But we all start at the same point. And then use marketing throughout that to also challenging capture it.
Yeah, we also had a couple of recent opportunities where we didn't win the overall pitch. But that particular client said, Know what, you are actually perfect for this project and this opportunity. So it was quite useful for us to present ourselves genuinely and how our ethos is, and allow the rest of the team to try and help locate us on where we suit best. And that becomes a more successful relationship, that there are a lot of different varieties of different projects that we fit in better. So it's almost best that we didn't win the pitch we won before, because that might potentially wouldn't have been as good the coexistence Yeah,
so it's been we've had two recent examples of that. Where it's been really beneficial to everybody has been quite exciting really is to be more aligned with with the client. And for them to have that sort of loss has been interesting out that we didn't foresee and then they're coming with energy, then to the studio that we can apply what you were talking about on that project to this and and then they're coming into the studio, they're seeing things that we were talking about in the pitch, and they're like, that's exactly why we were here. And we've obviously by focusing on this marketing, we're saying more about ourselves more authentically. And I think it's got more of a payoff than we thought it would. As a result, there's all of these things that are happening. As a result, we started with one place, which is we need to improve our message we need to try and attract more work, but actually it's massively improving our day to day communication. You've got more eviction what you are saying? Yeah, because you've been rehearsing it, you understand the value.
We have you found that you've now you've you're kind of getting into a kind of size in practice, where you're, you're rubbing shoulders with, you know, other kind of much more well established practices. You've been in the game for, like 1520 years. How does that relationship work with other practices? Is it one of collaboration or competition? Or learning from each other?
I mean, it's actually an interesting question, because it's something we value a lot and reach out to a lot of other practices. And we've got a really great selection of mentors, that whether or not they like it or not, I was thinking about, I'm coming over coffee. Yeah. That guy, let's say it's like microdosing mentorship, just like, sneakily getting coffees in and then not realizing they're actually becoming a mentor, is I've been, you know, we've actually got some really great examples of directors of larger practices that we look up to and admire, and we've just spent the air have, and come away from it with a ton of value. And what's amazing is that most of the time, but actually all the time that people really like helping people, especially architects, we actually all do, like helping each other. And we should do and you look at some of the AJ comments, so you would think that all the design comments, but actually, keyboard warriors aren't the ones that are actually out and happy to meet you for coffee. The ones are the ones that understand relationships. It was actually I was on a panel in Dubai with David RJ. And got I got introduced as like the cool kid of upcoming architecture and David Lipton. And we had a really great discussion. And at the end, he said, Oh, let's let's grab a coffee in London, it took a little while to set up, but I resisted really, yeah, not bothering me.
All the voicemails on Instagram.
We had such a great chat at his office. And I was so surprised about how great he was thinking how great he was at thinking about his business. And it really inspired when I came back at us. Let's listen, you know, even David RJ is thinking like this. And sometimes you just assume things and it's not quite right. Yeah. You know, Joe's for boss Simon offered from Hmm, it's been great with us. Yeah. You know, since Joe Hunter, there's no student has been more than willing to have chats, in depth conversations about finances. Yeah, amazing, you know, all of those things, which every time we get grace with, you know, 1520 minutes, but with him, empowers us and inspires us,
you also think you're going to impress him with way because like, he is just, you see, yeah. But he always said actually, that that poor point of you're going to be you want to do good architecture, you've got to you've got to be in business. So it's, it's, it's fundamental. You've got to you've got to focus on that. How do you
conceptualize of your business, then? What are the major parts of it that you like? You look at all departments, or we've
got three? Yeah, yeah. So I mean, we've actually talked about external consultants, we've been working with business coach, right. So there's, there's been three directors, to help us understand ourselves, which has been really, really great. Because inevitably, you're three different people. And that's a good thing. And you need to harness that and embrace it. And, and then also, you're, you know, in theory in charge of leading forward the rest of the team and which is full of multiple different personalities, yeah. And experiences. So it's been that process for us has been about a nine month process of, firstly, US assessing ourselves, and then working with the team for us as a collective to understand where we want to go. And so it's been that's been transformational for us to understand it. And we've, we've drilled out three core elements, which we're focusing on which is our values which is itself the operational side, right, and then the brand. So they cross over together certain values can't happen that brand and brand part you know, that values and an operation is obviously tied to that so so clearly,
the operations is there kind of in the business administration
of it making systems around the process of producing the architecture as well as making sure that stuff right so you're
kind of workflow Yeah,
but even socializing what what do we do when do we do what's the summer policy. Like it all those things are important to everybody and all of us. And, and that's really amazing. That all sits under one umbrella. But that's so aligned to the values. Yeah. And then the brand is, is really a horrible word in a way I really resent using that. But it is the energy that people come in here and they get and you can't quite put your finger on what it is. But it's the combination of
kind of emotional response. Yeah,
I think she's a smell.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's the incense.
Around a lingering aroma? Yeah, we're posting companies. Yes.
I was gonna say that, the end of that. And they all three make each other work. But what's really interesting about the branding of the marketing, marketing, now going forward, is what Vicki said about all of the diverse voices and, and how that could be very complicated, or it could be an enormous advantage, which in its enormous advantage, is, is really celebrated and brought to life with marketing, because you get people talking, you get people sharing their view on things, you realize just how differently different people can view the same thing. But then you're tying that in sort of a direction all of this is part of that value. It's the values that we have. It's it's powerful, isn't it? Yeah.
So with the operations, then, and the thing that probably most architects struggle with the most is, you know, keeping projects profitable. Yeah. And that's, you know, we're dealing with complexity, you're dealing with other consultants who perhaps don't have the same level of visibility, they do too close to those decisions, indecisive clients, there's this all, you know, I've been a client suddenly changes what the brief is, and you've got enormous amount of scope creep. And if you're not tracking your time, then, you know, this is, and this is where architecture becomes a very complicated business to be operating, is just the kind of management of profit. And I mean, I would probably assert that most architects don't even think about profit as a as a margin, or it's not, how have you got? What's the kind of culture this is establishing the opposite spin, then what's the growth around that Ben, is,
I mean, it's been probably a year and a half long journey, right? From that realization that we don't harness this, we're almost creating a bigger flywheel each year, have a problem of catching up on resourcing, and not containing the fact that we're a business and have to be profitable. And so it's been a long journey of bringing in external consultants having internal health to switch software's to enable the team to attract time properly. And to really ask the questions of what is the profitability for our projects? What happens if we fall below that, then all those things is in progress, but it's on top of our agenda? It's a bet it's a huge that I think it's we thought it'd be simpler than it was it isn't, because of all of the stakeholders, all of the things that can happen on a project, we've invested in some, some proper software to actually track that. But again, running that software is one thing to invest in it and get set
up, which is a big undertaking the disciplines properly so you can rely on that information. And what are you measuring? You know, how can you make decisions? And how can you make decisions and changes after you've had a meeting, the infrastructure is enormous with setting it up. But we're also sort of developing our gut to work with that as well. But we're getting closer, and we are more clear now. And we do have much more accountability
with important thing. It's, it's highly up on our agenda. And that's, as we've been in the business, you can't do everything and you run around like crazy, but, you know, we're we've got so much give ourselves that, that we're on it. We're trying, whereas we weren't before, probably. And it's really exciting now to actually approach profitability as a target. How
do you how do you go about ensuring that you're getting the right fees in projects, it's kind of related to profitability? And when you're looking at projects in and do you have like a good grasp of what other people are charging in their fees. And when your competitors win
every time every so often you get glimpses of your competitors fees. And I think what does link in with profitability and it always feeds itself is what is our resource cost as a as a practice overheads and all of those costs, the cost of the business plus the team teams time, so that really is helpful, we can get confidence back to a fever zone, if you lose it because you're too expensive. You know, that you've
you would have lost money. I took it on that.
I can't buy work. And it's also back to the marketing which is the internal value of worth. If they're not valued, then it's fine. You know that there's someone else out there that might be able to do it cheaper, and they may be fit for that client. Yeah.
That's exactly, yeah.
In terms of building our team, what was some of the first team members that were essential for you to bring on? And how was and how is that maturing? Elise? Good question. Yeah,
we were doing everything obviously to begin with. And so you needed support, drawing, we needed support. We're planning applications and producing views. And so, technician, and part two joining, and we were the project architects, and we were taking those projects and doing all of that managing all of the communication, presentations, leading the process of producing the technical information, and then going on the site. And then slowly, we've architects have joined, and then more recently, we've had, like, hired more, far more senior people joined. So it's been a process of slowly building up the team from, I suppose the direct implementation up to the management.
One of the things that we'll often see with practices, that kind of again, another another pitfall, is typically as a small practice it makes on the surface of it, it makes sense to hire young and inexperienced. And then that comes with its own problems of yeah, now you've spent two years mentoring somebody, and now they leave this is that getting really competent at what it was that they're doing, because now that some of the practices, poach them, and then you start again, and then it's this continual, you know, and it's very difficult to make money out of when you're training people to get up to scrap, how did you
was actually Simon Orford was the one that said to us, you know, you guys are in the phase now where you have to deliver your reputation is your most important asset, right. And if you don't deliver, if you drop the ball, it will get around quickly. And, you know, it's almost nowhere to go. So it was really, really great piece of advice for us, because it is tempting to try and just be like, well, when maybe we just wing it and get it through. You know, it's the classic architect all nighters syndrome, we'll just watch out. And it's worked. You know, it started at university sometimes, but at the end of the day, excuses always find out later at the end. And, and it's the same for for us as the practice is, we're now getting to the stage where we're working on larger projects. And as you start entering to the stage for tender periods, it's then goes on to cite where all the problems start, you know, coming up. So that was a big investment for us realizing that actually, we needed the seniority and the experience within the team for ourselves as well, you know, we were started as young directors. So relatively, our experience in practice wasn't as as established as a lot of other assets out there. So we needed that support and experiences
may take that takes a lot actually kind of like getting your own ego out. To hire to hire senior people. You know, as well, it's a it's a serious investment. When
you look it is it is good is a good thing to invest in. Yeah, again, yeah. Clears clears your vision. I was gonna say also, you mentioned about training people up and they leave or we kind of, I suppose also realize that that's, that is massive risk doing. And you should be a wee, it's better for everybody, if you invest in our way of doing things. Yeah. And also defining roles really clearly. So that it's clarity is a bit more of a system, people understand where they are within it. And that's something we're working quite actively on at the moment. Which I think, yes, safeguards against that means you also going to have a
better quality. Have you guys experimented with different service typologies, in terms of, you know, non traditional architectural services or moving into your own developments or anything is like this on the table.
I mean, the the traditional role of an architect has changed. And I think a lot of architects are trying to fight against that, yeah, and almost just hark back to an era where architecture is well regarded. Architects are very well paid. And they lead projects. And actually, we are really comfortable with the fact that we're one part of a team. And the client is a big part of that and should get lots of the glory, too, isn't all the assets anymore. But there's also those elements of talking about marketing that we're excited about the fact that potentially, what we're doing is unlocking value in projects, and communicating that value. We see a little bit of a gap in the market of how architects could do that. So we're looking into different services, but it's the very, very beginning stages of it. And it's actually really exciting way of looking at architecture, seeing it as a variety of screams of adding value. With design. If you If you look at it is that likely, there's multiple streams than just the way that traditional architecture
is. You mentioned that a lot of architects go towards development studies of their own development, I would think I'd say that those aren't particularly compatible. If you think about, we're desperately trying to unlock design, it's that value is to communicate in that valley, it feels like a far more comfortable adjacency is to say, well, that branding of that building, what the way that that is presented, what's the value here, the market perspective, in terms of what the design should be? Focusing on?
Well, this is interesting. And I do kind of the architect developer model quickly becomes, you know, to develop a model where exactly and then you're going to be in because you're going to be in competition. Now. They're not gonna want to give you the architectural work. So yeah, what you're gonna have to make a choice at some point to go in that go down the route. Yeah, sustaining the architectural, like, more traditional architectural service becomes interesting. I'm saying, if you're being aware of how to either repackage or be innovative with the sorts of services that you're doing moving into the kind of world of experience and branding.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's almost pushing the boundaries a little bit more from from the, the way that we look at it is that architects are brilliant problem solvers. And we apply creative solutions to solving problems. And if you look at a project timeline, and what's involved with it, is usually something that needs to be solved. And an architect can help that to produce drawings and creating designs. That doesn't stop there. It can also move onwards to then how does that approach the market? How does that attract for an office, for example? So tenants? And then what happens when a tenant then moves and moves onwards? Is there is there a place for us to also be involved? Yeah. Further along that, how will the partnership how fluid
are you would you say, in your clients, business cases and business agendas is that something that's kind of spent a bit time, depending on
which client but often, often very, because you're trying to work out what to do with the building runs, they'll talk about how they're approaching it. And they'll talk about the viability of different models. And obviously, architecture is a massive part of that. And you're often part of that conversation. A bit depends, it's different pens on different clients.
It's a real tightrope, because you don't want to be on one hand, the classic diva that must insist on everything go their way. But you need an element of that, because that's also the creativity. But then, on the other end, if you if you do too, you know, too much down the commercial route, then you're losing that that deepness that is required to kind of think differently and make the budget.
I think it's very interesting, you know, we were talking about the kind of differentiator for an architecture practice in the marketing and just by doing marketing is like, number one, yeah. differentiates you. Yeah. But also, I found that people who, when they work with consultants, or you've got a real interest in the business and design a business, then well, that's automatically a great tool to be talking to another business owner, who most of most your client, you certainly more,
it's certainly easier for you to just yet understand because of the way you've had to approach your Yeah,
exactly. And you've started to think about your own problems. And now you can start to translate some of that understanding into the design service. And it makes some new as a much more richer, trusted adviser. Yeah.
Yeah. And that pain points of budgets and overruns, you get it? Yeah. It's not just an annoyance. Absolutely. It's ruining your brick choice.
So you guys have you've been diversifying in terms of typologies and sectors that you're working in? And you've also been working internationally? Yes. A little bit about that. Because, again, this is no easy thing to be engaging with. Yeah, there's a whole host of Yes,
definitely, I think it was something that, you know, I was previously Foster and partners, and I was always working on international projects. So it was something that I assumed. Yeah, exactly. And so we started white, red, with some opportunities in Mumbai, in India, and we wanted to, to embrace them. So so we so we built a team that helped us to deliver products over there, and and tried to build up more of a pipeline over in India and we had a team in Mumbai who a lot of people used to say So is it just an outsourcing procedure, but it was required because the planning conditions and everything was so different out there that the team were the experts in that field, and we were the ones that were coordinating designs to to work there. And and India and Mumbai, had a tricky COVID And it was almost the right time for us as well to think about it. We are doing international. Where do we where do we get to work in the world, and in London is such an incredible place for us to where we are. And there's a reason why we're here. So we're predominantly working in London. But we have got opportunities in the UAE, that have been coming up with projects in Finland, and also in Spain. So it is a case where we're applying our principles and values to architecture. We feel really fortunate that is a language that's translatable across the world, we recently got asked to be in a competition for Osaka and Japan. And, you know, we were bringing principles of British technology in construction to an amazing opportunity over in Japan, Osaka, we had to work within the context of it had to be well, well understood for people in Osaka. So we had to work with people over there. But it's just, it's something that we do want as part of our DNA. It's not wedded to any particular one place. But we do want to continue that journey, or
did you find that would say working in India, for example, is I remember seeing some of the images that came out. And it was like, I was just talking to those guys a few weeks. Max, how extraordinary was that quite, you know, as well, like the opportunities that present themselves in some days,
they're off the can be bigger. I think that's interesting time back to London is that the London brand, what London stands for, and the British design process and what the British have done in the past, and there's this huge value in that. And we're in a really interesting point on the map where we, where we are connecting point for so many different countries. So you do you do that that's quite powerful externally. But also, I think we've talked about this quite a bit. But post post globalism, we're in a far more connected world, we've got big problems ahead of us, we kind of feel we've got a bit of an obligation to share as much as possible to collaborate as widely as possible, because that's where those adjacencies actually change. Innovations actually make a difference. So Dickie mentioned a socket that actually has brought us into contact with and it was British technology. So we were working with a really amazing engineer called Andy coward, we had this amazing design for 3d printed beam that uses 28%, less concrete. Then he brought us into contact with Sarah tech, which is a company that does carbon negatives, and then it's amazing structural solution. And we design that to look a bit like Shakespeare's Globe, which has got this really nice story about the amount of validity because it was originally just over here in Shoreditch, it was taken down, taken across the river and rebuilt. So there's a really nice story about circularity, British design British ideas exported, but that can be done with contact consultants and contacts in the Middle East with other people we might be working with in Japan, Singapore, and opportunity has come up recently. And these are really interesting places, we've got different climates, different regulations, different issues, and different approaches that we we can we can add huge value to when we come together.
So this is very interesting, like just kind of to speculate a little bit here with you guys about for you, what is the future of architectural practice? We are, I mean, my perspective or kind of opinions, if you like that there's going to be quite big macro economic shifts and changes, you know, there's people in the US big investors who are speculating about changing world orders and want to get really kind of, you know, global about it. And but we're also on this precipice of intense interconnectedness, which is quite fantastic. Yeah. And opportunities. And the the kind of old guard of architectural practice is, has traditionally been quite static in mobile. For you, what is the kind of future of white and red, white Rand and yeah, what how you think is gonna be a powerful waiter is
quite exciting, really. I mean, we it's almost an honor to be within an industry that has such a big impact. And back to the international point, that allowed us to have a different perception of some of the macro problems that affects the whole world, which a lot of people discuss with a lot less time people discuss it within the context of quite a small account. And you know, it's particularly in London, I think we're quite, you know, to blame of that. Typically, the debate is or the moment last, that retrofit and retro first and all those things was really important for for London, and then a really big step for London. But that doesn't apply to emerging markets, and the changing global order. And it is, it isn't about one or the other. It's about not arguing whether it's one or the other. It's about how do we solve those larger problems as well as as retrofit retrofit. So it's a really our opinion is that If international projects allow us the opportunity to expand our horizons, and also apply some of our values to some of these larger issues. And that's, we feel it's really exciting thing to be. And that's where we're more optimistic about architecture as a fact of maybe it's diminished in our role, and it's been diversify too much. And the old architects, the era of it has gone, it's actually, this is really great. This is a great opportunity for us to have a massive contribution to some of these issues.
And I think also, technology, massively changing the landscape. And obviously, AI, but we're looking ahead at what that really means for for many industries, but particularly in architecture, it's focusing on why architecture even existed, it didn't exist so that we can do drawings. It it created, because we want to create spaces for people. So it's focusing on people. And that's why marketing is quite interesting, again, focusing on voices and people and their stories and the way they see the world and the way groups see things. That's far more interesting. This technology is allowing us to shift focus onto that, which is far more fulfilling, and hopefully leads to far better outcomes.
Well, I think that's where, again, that's very interested in the kind of the globalized outlook mind with a technological outlook as well as a very kind of positive. Yeah, you know, future. And it's very interesting to kind of speculate on, you know, perhaps here, there's a lot of concern, as always this concern, yeah, technology is applied is going to replace architects, it's a place that probably not going to add more tools to the belt and become, you know, more power on your directorial and editorial abilities. But also the approach of how these technologies get adapted in other countries. Yeah, we look at somewhere like India and China and and then the continent, African continent. And we see how fast and readily they adopted something like mobile technology, yeah, now how fast they're adopting AI technology. Whereas here, we're still like,
they want to shortcut the process, which we should all be wanting to do, actually, because we the whole point wasn't just to create work for ourselves went was to, was to improve. And we, we we got you end up very protectionist when you quite established and so you think that the point is progress, we need to work with this. And we need to have a very open and collaborative mind, mindset. Amazing,
what's got what's the rest of 2023 got installed for you
got some really exciting projects to come through very recently. And it's, it's taking us to a larger scale of projects within the UK and London. So the rest of the year, we'll be here keeping to what Simon often recommended to make sure we deliver well, and keep building a reputation. And, and yeah, and, you know, he'd mentioned marketing, it's it really is about trying to communicate what our values are. And doing it really, really a great way and as much as we can
be making videos we're going to start releasing
has no following. You're
brilliant. Well, no, well, thank you so much. That's a perfect place to conclude the conversation. It's been an absolute joy to speak with you again, it's so nice to be able to, you know, to visit a practice having had the privilege of seeing you guys and yes a sort of an operation and now being like a sophisticated 20 person strong team who's like still just at the beginning of what you're about. Yeah. So
thank you very much see in five years.
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