And so now we have generations of people, believers and non believers being raised in a culture where, you know, this notion of beauty is only in the eyes of the beholder. Which you know that stain is also very powerful because of the statement of authority. You know what I mean? To say that beauty is only in the eyes of the beholder, it means that I define what beauty is, right I hold the power of definition and define beauty and that the candles Genesis one no God define what beauty is, from the beginning of the cosmos when he's forming it. He's creating an easy clearing what is beautiful? Yeah, he's already defined it. But to say that beauty is only the eyes of the beholder means that I've now taken that authority in my own individuals.
Yes, I am now God.
Hi, Friends, Welcome to Ideas have consequences, the podcasts of the disciple nations Alliance, where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of our mission. And today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
Well, welcome again to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen, I'm the host for the podcast and the president of the DNA. And today I'm joined by my colleagues and friends, Darrow Miller, Dwight Vogt, Luke Allen, and we have a really special guest today, Brian s. Chan, is with us today. We met Brian through a previous guest on the podcast, Jessica Shikhar, who had talked to us previously about art and beauty. She was a makeup artist in Hollywood and really fascinating person. And Brian, likewise, incredibly fascinating. Brian, I was I was just looking over your some of your bio, and I was just like, wow, this is so interesting. Here's a couple of things that jumped out at me and I'll I'll kind of get the ball rolling, but we'd love to have you just kind of fill in. More on your really fascinating journey. Brian grew up in San Francisco, and he grew up in a Buddhist family. He's a first generation Chinese American and was raised in Hong Kong. Is that correct? Brian? You're I was raised here. Are you raised here? Okay. Okay. So your parents are from Hong Kong? Yes, correct. I gotcha. Okay, we love Hong Kong, and I happen to be absolutely passionate for Chinese noodles. So anyways, Brian was pastor in Hollywood taught at Biola University, and also was a doctoral student of philosophy at Talbot seminary. And so we we have also a real love for bile and connections to Biola. Dwight was a graduate of Biola. And my, my daughter, Kayla, graduated recently from Biola, the tori program there and just we really love that school. So it's great to have that connection there with you. Brian is a professional artist. He's a painter, I believe. And he's also an author. And his most recent book, I believe, is titled The purple curtain living out beauty in faith and culture, from a biblical perspective. So that just gives you a little flavor of who this man is. Brian, it's so great to have you with us today. Thanks for joining.
Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Darrow light and Scott. Just an honor and pleasure to be here with you, gentlemen.
Yeah, well, it's it's the honor is all ours. And this is a subject as, as we mentioned, you as we were talking before the podcast, just that we have a real passion for its we have a passion for God's kingdom. And God's Kingdom has the hallmarks of the kingdom of God are truth, goodness, and beauty. And I feel like in the evangelical world, we talk a lot about truth, which is great. And we talk a lot about goodness, yeah, righteousness, holiness, but beauty doesn't get as much attention. And so we were trying to trying to catch up on that. So
yeah, well, I'm excited for this.
Yeah, I thought, Brian, why don't you just fill us in? What are you doing right now? And then we'll jump into a couple of questions.
Well, right now I'm in a transition phase as I in between we just sold our house in Burbank and taught my last class session at Biola. And I, my last pastoral position was last May of last year. That's when I that was my final month. And so it's just been a big transition phase as I get ready to move out of Burbank and start at Dallas Theological Seminary on July 1, I'll be the new assistant professor of Media Arts and worship there. And but it's a big, big turn of events because I graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary 20 years ago, moved out of Dallas 18 years ago and have been, was teaching at Biola for 17 years. So this is a big shift for me.
Right? What was what did you teach at Biola? Well, I
taught, I started teaching art in the Bible. And then I, my main staple class that I taught there was called Beauty and spirituality. So as basically theology of beauty, and how it relates to spiritual life and engagement with culture. I also taught theology of heroes and villains, which was my, my dissertation focus for my demon, when I studied Christian philosophy, and my final class there, I taught a co taught called faith and film. So applying a theological perspective to understand film and philosophy and film.
Wow, I wish I have taken your classes.
Sounds great.
Well, I'm curious, don't Brian, you, you have a focus on beauty and everything you've done so far? Where does that come from? And why? Why looking at the, why are you looking at the theology of beauty? Well,
on a personal level, it began with me being an artist. So I've been an artist for quite a while and, and when I was a teenage gem, student, my I was historical theology major. And I started to discover the richness of aesthetics with faith in the heritage of our faith, in the heritage of Christianity. And so I dove deeper into it, and end up doing my dissertation on a Biblical Exposition of the beauty of God, and how art relates and worship. And when I got my opportunity to teach at Biola eventually led me free to class on the theology of beauty. And so that's how it just kept that the path just kept going that direction, and I realized I needed a textbook from my class, and the research for this subject hasn't stopped, you know, it just continues to, to mush. Minos interesting, um, Scott, when you add, in your introduction of me, mentioned the purple curtain, I wrote this book over well over over 10 years ago. And it's something that's still so relevant, and it's keeps resurfacing. So it's a very rich and full topic for me.
Well, I really enjoyed reading it. And I, you know, Darrell pitch in and Scott, but I had some questions coming out of the book, and I just wanted to throw those out, you start at the very beginning, you basically say, to understand reality, you, we have to understand beauty. And you say, to understand beauty, we have to go to back to the beginning. What do you mean?
Yeah, so what I, so much of how we interpret reality, the ontology of reality, relates to our view of beauty. So on a very basic level, you know, if there's a perception that there is no such thing as objective truth, or objective reality, and everything's relative, then the same person will not perceive objective beauty as well either. And then that has all kinds of practical ramifications because of its objective beauty. Beauty is not just something to be created or invented, but to be discovered. Anything objective is it has a pose. Its reality is reality to be discovered, right? It's be reality to be uncovered. And there begins the journey, a very wonderful journey. But if beauty is only subjective, and relative, then well, it's the, it's very small, it's whatever we invent it to be or society constructed to be. But if it's reality is far bigger than us. And so I've noticed that in history as predominant philosophies of reality, changes in Morse views of beauty also morphs along with it, you know, so at a time when there was a belief that prevalent, predominantly, there's a an objective sense of truth and reality, an objective sense of morality and virtue, there was also a cannon for beauty. But as things became more relativized, and the way we perceive reality and morals, beauty also became more relativized as well to largely and so I say, we have to go back to the beginning because everything we know of what reality is starts with what God made. Right? So Genesis one and two is just rich, so rich with how we can understand reality the universe, what it means to be human self identity. And there's there's also so much packed into Genesis one and two in the language and dramatic portrayal. Yeah. So so there's there's a lot that can be picked apart in there, both from a dramatic poetic artistic perspective. And, and then that, you know, I think you're going to refer to someone The other questions that I would probably address to which is even the climax of creating human beings, you know?
Yeah, was the highlight
is the highlight. Yeah, right.
Yeah, talking about how you got there. I mean, that's an interesting concept. The idea is,
well, I think when you read from verses one through 25, there is a progression of a dramatic display of God creating, starting from the very vague and broad, right light, and then not even defining what light is, it's not Sun and Moon, it's just light, and then dividing into thirds. So you have expanses dividing the thirds, and you divide into compositions, land and seas, very broad scope down into the details of filling you fill in with vegetation animals. And then there's this constant progression as a viewer to it's this painting brush visual picture, is as if you were to make a video of this, you know, this thing is just continuously morphing into this rich and very lustrous place. And then at the height of that this is the first time you find poetry. At the creation of man, right? There's a three polar line stanza here with the creation of man and there's a metering in verse 27. So God created man in His own image and the image of God he created and male and female, He created them. The metering is through the repetition of the word created the Hebrew word borrow, but even in our English translation, you can hear it as metering is rhythm. And it's almost as if God breaks out of the song at the very height of creation, He saves the best for last. And then when he says, I'm going to make man in my own image, well, this whole word image, well, what image is that? Well, we just saw it from verses one through 25, we got the clear image of God creating it, you're watching an artist in his studio, you know, sculpting a massive statues as if you were watching Michelangelo, paint the Sistine Chapel, you just saw the image of what he is like. And then he says, I'm gonna make man and woman in my own image, how rich that is. And so there's no like, you know, there's no treaties or this explanatory thing of here's what it means we made in God's own image. It's explained poetic, visual dramatically. We just saw it, you know, and so that so it crescendos that point, and it doesn't give it to us any sooner, nor that any later. The rhythm, the pacing of it is right on there.
Well, I didn't know the pacing and the the rhythm that you're talking about, what I what I had seen, as I explored, this was at each stage of the creation, there was more order, as it were put on the canvas. And, you know, you you move from the inanimate, to plants, and then that is good. And then from that, you go to animals, a higher order. And then finally, you come to the crescendo, and the creation of man, and the glory of being made in the image of God. To be creative. Yeah, so this just resonates with me what you've said on the you're, you're filling some gaps in for me, Brian, it's really exciting.
Yeah, thank you for that, Darrell. And certainly, and you know, very rarely do I think, in this this one chapter, can you have something so artistically displayed? And at the same time, scientifically, sensible, you know, it's a whole thing there were you have both the aesthetic quality of it, and that the practical, functional quality of it. You know, I mean, if you were to think of when you put animals that need to breathe air, well, you're going to create things that need to provide the atmosphere first. So the vegetation comes, the waters is there first, you know, so you don't put them before that. Otherwise they suffocate. So there's both on the scientific level and on the aesthetic level paired together, Genesis one is just rich with that is brilliant.
And they're paired together. But people for generations have struggled. You have science on one hand, and art on the other. How do these come together? Yeah, but in a biblical frame, where you have God the Creator. Yeah, that question really doesn't exist, right? Because he creates but he's also the mathematician, the scientist. In his been, yeah. So. Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I listen to this, and I'm thinking when I read Genesis, you know, I think I'm so progressive, because I can see the science. And I think God is so wise, he's so brilliant. I think of all the complexity that he's creating as he moves towards, you know, the fulfillment of that all and yet, here we are talking God is an artist. And I'm going oh my goodness, I never saw that. I never saw that Canvas. I just saw the engineer work anyway, but to be made in His image is to be an engineer and an artist and
have those capabilities. Yeah. Yeah. Brian, connect Flores beauty to God Himself. Yeah. Obviously, that's where objective beauty comes from the standard for beauty, but explain that a little more for us.
Yeah, I think the first thing I usually like to delineate is the notion that God creates Beauty and the notion that God is beautiful. Two things very related, intricately related, but two separate things as well too. Because what we see in creation, what he has made, maybe a reflection of who he is, but its creation itself is not who he is. And what it means for God to be beautiful, has to do with his nature, his character is works and His Word. And, and there's, what you find in God is, is in complete harmony in his character, the equilibrium of apparent opposites. But it's what creates wholeness and balance. And that's how we've come to understand beauty historically, the when it comes to this idea of a canon of beauty, we even artists, today, we talked about symmetry, we talked about balance, we talk about proportion of you know, when you look at a painting and artists in the art Association's I'm with, we caught me, you know, where I'm among those who don't believe in Jesus necessarily. But we still talk about symmetry and balance, and in its symmetry and balance portrayed for us a sense of harmony and wholeness. And what you find in God has a sense of perfection that he is truly, in every aspect. So you you can't uphold God's love and grace without also upholding His righteousness and justice, you know, is the two tethered together, that actually creates this equilibrium of him? And so when people ask me, How can God be so loving, and also yet, you know, judge was because he's also equally as righteous and holy, as he is loving, merciful and gracious, you know, and that's where I find that, you know, he lacks nothing, the Trinity, you know, completely one and yet completely communal. You know, he lacks nothing. So it says, wholeness of God on one hand that portrays his beauty on the other, and he exhibits that beauty in his glory, glory that has a visual sense of radiance, but also as a kind of aesthetic sense of weight, you know, of heaviness that comes from the Hebrew word, right? And so this idea of glory, this idea of splendor, is used in the scriptures to describe his beauty as well, too. But then also, on the other hand, his beauty is described like that of a lily, you know, it's soft, as gentle as magnificent supply. Yeah. Right. So here's the complete fullness of what we would think of as beauty. And that's why he's the most desirable being, you know, that we would we would long after, and you know, that that sense of, of God shaped hole in our heart, you know, that sense there was because, as fallen people were yearning for beauty because we were made in the image of God. And then, and I, you know, that's one of the things I find so fascinating, which is, you know, God didn't choose any other image other than himself. He didn't choose a higher angel, he didn't choose the most, you know, a beast of the field, you know, a lion or anything, it was himself, you know, and so there's a sense that we resonate with beauty. Because we're made in His image. He is a God, who is beautiful, and also creates beauty and uses the very standard of beauty as one of the standards for creation. You know, so okay, I'm rambling a bit. No, it's
It's great.
We're glad you're rambling.
Ray. Part of what I heard you use the word harmony earlier. And God is the Define harmony. He everything is harmonious, coming together and who he is and what he has done. Yes. And then is the breaking of the harmony as it were.
That's Yep, I'm right there with you. Dara centers are breaking up that harmony creates the imbalance. And I think that's just the plight of the human plight now is this yearning for wholeness? And yet finding all kinds of alternative means other than Jesus to try to achieve wholeness you know, we're trying to fill gaps is all we're trying to, you know, trying to do outside of Christ but, but we will never truly find it and yet you know, who God is He portrays the the exact qualities of what we're yearning to get back to you and what he intended for humans to have.
You speak of a cannon of beauty And and you talk about objective beauty and yet it's not a boundary for people if it's, and yet it feels like it should be. And to have a Canon means there's rules.
I was gonna I was gonna ask questions around that too, Brian explained when you say Canada beauty what what do you have in your mind for that Brian.
So a canon of Beauty means there's, there is a specific definition for what true beauty is, is not just left up to the sentiments or social constructions and whatever we subjectively make of it. So a canon of Beauty means that there are actually definable qualities of what true beauty is, and, and on one hand, you know, you can think of rules as something confining, or you can think of something like a cannon as a definition that becomes a seed that that's fertile for inspiration or creativity. Right. It's almost like we mentioned that I think, Darrow you mentioned that earlier. And historically, beauty for early theologians, medieval theologians understood beauty through mathematics, right? So let's use an example. The number Pi, number Pi is objective, it's real, because they're right, we use it to understand the universe, we also understand use it to for architecture, engineering, to make things to create the wheel and to create rotational motions and movement. Right, pi 3.14. And yet pi is not limited. Right? To understand pi is to discover certain vastness depths of the universe, and to be able to be inventive, and creative and productive. And pi, like beauty goes on forever. Right? Have you ever tried to write the number pi, as far as you can, you know, as a teenager?
I never have actually, but
But it's passing there's an eternal infinite element to it. And yet, it is objective. I don't know if anyone would think, well, pi is very limiting, you know, limits my creativity. I don't you know, it's it's like a beauty is like a cannon abuse like it's a seedbed. Its or for its fertile for inspiration for creativity. When I
when I think of cannon, I think of I think of literature, you know, the, you know, I think of like the Western canon and the great well, you know, I mentioned kala went to Tori, you know, when there was a kind of a canon of Western literature that you read. And, but when I think of art or beauty, I mean, it's not limited culturally, you come from Asia, you come from, you know, your roots are from China, from Hong Kong, I lived for a while in Japan, and I was always just astounded by the aesthetic of, of the Japanese arts, you know, I just thought it was some of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. So we're not talking about a Western thing here, right? When we talk about the canon of beauty,
right? That's correct. It's not about style, nor even potentially genre. I can I can use this one example. Something that Madeline L'Engle wrote in her book, walk on water, and one canon of beauty that she repeats and has been known historically, which is that God creates Cosmos out of chaos is not the other way around. Right? God does not. His end goal is not to produce chaos, his end goal is always produce cosmos. So what you find in Genesis one and two, and it's the same language and salvation and redemption, that we are new creation is a new self, there will be eventually a new earth and new Heaven, right in the creative creative in the sense that there's greater Cosmos, and it's not destruction is not to tear down. Now, Google says that, you know, creating greater Cosmos, out of chaos is both Christian and art. She says then, but when art is trying to create greater chaos is neither Christian nor is it as a principle, one principle in the canon of what beauty is, doesn't produce greater Cosmos because the end result is human flourishing. The end result is is wholeness, the end result is glorious. That does that.
And what I liked what you're saying is that, you know, transcends culture to that. Yes, right.
Yeah. So play some music, poetry, literature, stories that we tell, you find some similar writings of this in, in Plato's Republic, where another pan that has been subscribed to is the truth, the beauty, if it's defined by truth, it will promote truth. But if there's an object of creativity that promotes lies, well Plato says that we have to censor those things out. And what he was referring to are stories, stories, epics, prose and poetry. Stories that tell lies about humanity, about self about the nature of gods and in the universe, and that, you know, God's being, you know, from his perspective, the theology part of it. So, Truth is another aspect of the canon of beauty.
I'm assuming you've read to do Bay, Thomas Dubay the evidential power of beauty. Yes. That's probably the best book I've read on the subject. And probably until I read your
book, purple curtain I can't afford to do Bay,
do you? Okay. But up until I read to Bay, I believe there was objective truth and objective, we lived in a moral universe that was objective. But I had assumed because I had believed the lie, that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. So that that was my background until I read Dube. And he just shocked the heck out of me. What he said that beauty was objective. But his argument was so powerful. I, you know, I learned and I had to confess my ignorance.
Well, it's not just ignorance here. I think we are all you know, I mean, we've been Christians for all of our adult lives. And yet, we're still so deeply shaped by this kind of postmodern culture that swirls around us. Right, you know, so yeah,
I did a conference a few years ago, before COVID, in Colombia, and we had, I think, 120, maybe 150 young Christians, who were pursuing art, from 12 different Latin countries. And I kept talking about objective beauty. And finally, one of the young artists in the group put their hands up and said, You keep talking about objective beauty and beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. So I stopped, you know, and I said, Okay, let's talk about that for a while. And we had an interesting discussion with these young Christian artists from all over Latin America. And most of them were saying, Yeah, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. So that was a, you know, what do you call it? A point of inflection in a series of lectures where, oh, we need to really talk about this, because they don't understand that and was a fascinating discussion.
You know, I get the same response Darrow at, in my classifiable. Yeah, my Biola students will come into my class. And that's the first assumption, they have an assumption that they don't question until you teach them that there is an there's a different way of thinking about this, theologically. And I think it has something to do culturally too, with, historically, the church abandoning the concept of beauty, and this integration of faith and beauty, the integration of faith and the aesthetics. There's, I think we left it, you know, for some time, and saw it as irrelevant. And then it became superficial lies. And so now we have generations of people, believers and non believers being raised in a culture where, you know, this notion of beauty is only in the eyes of the beholder. Which you know, that stain is also very powerful because of the statement of authority. You know what I mean? To say that beauty is only in the eyes of the beholder, it means that I define what beauty is, I hold the power of definition of define beauty. And that kind of Genesis one, no, God defined what beauty is, from the beginning of the cosmos when he's forming it, and he's creating, and He's declaring what is beautiful? Yeah, he's already defined it. But to say that beauty is only the eyes of the beholder means that I've now taken that authority in my own individuals.
Yes, I am now God. Yes, sir. Yes,
I'm no good. And I can determine what is attractive. And the beauty in society is seen as an ideal, right? I mean, we see that on the surface level, whatever society people perceive as beautiful, is perceived also, as an ideal that you want to pursue laughter. When you can control the definition, you're controlling the ideal and what people pursue after you combine it with commercialism? Well, that's very powerful that now there's a powerful engine that at work here, you know, those who have the money to sell a product to create a need and to portray back to society what is beautiful, and therefore the ideal, and then generating movement towards that, you know, and this could be so far off far away and discounting a theological perspective, what God has already defined is beautiful, and that's why they can in the end, I think is so important.
Why do we pursue ugliness? I mean, I it makes sense that the truth level it's like what you wouldn't want to pursue untruth that people do all the time or lie we do but but but I know we do. But why? Why do we go to ugly with beauty? I mean, that isn't that isn't that intrinsic to the human being? Didn't God build beauty into our hearts kind of like our conscious on truth? I don't know. No.
I, I'll give my thoughts but I wanted to hear yours I use the word hideous. Not ugly, okay? Because hideous, has both. What would you call it a visual thing, and a moral thing. And truth, beauty and goodness, we can talk about them separately, but we cannot ever separate them. Because beauty is true. Good is beautiful. Truth is beautiful. And when you when you say something is ugly, you're and it's connected, beauty is connected to good to the good, then there has to be a moral part of your statement. And that would be hideous.
Yeah, I'm totally with you there, Darrow those three things cannot be separated. And I think one of the struggles that we are going through in our society is something that's epistemological. You know, is there truly a standard? Is there? Is there absolute truth or not? And, you know, when you remove a cannon of something, well, how do you understand its opposite? Does that make sense? You know, if there was no true beauty or objective beauty, what is its opposite? Because the understanding of ugliness is that it negates what true beauty is what objective beauty is, there's no longer any agreement of what objective beauty is, or or not even any agreement. Let me rephrase that. If there's an assumption that it doesn't exist, well, what do you determine as ugliness, but at the same time, do what you're right and that there's something primordial within our souls that we kind of we understand, Umberto Eco wrote this in his book called on ugliness, he says, deepened down deep down inside, we do know, on a base level, what ugliness is things that don't promote human flourishing, but things that create further and further destruction, you know, on a broad level, but I think Romans chapter one, it's very revealing about understanding agonist verses 18 to 32, I believe. 32. Yeah. Yeah, the first verse where it says, from the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, how is truth, the understanding of truth, suppressed, morally, more immoral? It's, there's a this the sin part that Darrow brought up earlier, you know, it goes back to the sin nature, when you choose a morality, because it feels good. Well, you can suppress truth and understanding of truth and theological truth in that way. So you may choose ugliness. And then the rest of the passage goes on talking about how people have exchanged true beauty or ugliness exchanged the glory of God for idols, exchange, truth or lies. And it's part of the tragedy of fallen man. You know, that's a, a wrong definition of beauty, reinvents brokenness, because we can only choose what we deem to be a genuine beauty. So we're so people are in their fall, and it's because they're choosing sin that suppresses truth and now they're repeatedly choosing ugliness, and sacrifice and surrender. What true beauty is thinking the ugliness is what actually is the the alternative, you know, substitute for what we really need, but it's advice. I think Paul and Peter make this contrast as well to and identifying that ugliness is what corrupts, I use that word corrupt, you know, it goes back to the decaying, you know, the destructive part, you know, certain desires we have. So going back to the whites question, why do we want ugliness? Well, Ephesians 422, or 23 says that he calls it deceitful desires, Paul calls it deceitful desires that corrupt at the end, it's about truth, we're deceived, we're deceiving the wanting things, but things that actually corrupt, they don't actually build up it doesn't lead to flourishing, is not greater Cosmos within our selves, even more wholeness within ourselves is just greater destruction. But there's a payoff in there somewhere that feeds us in nature that tells you it's good. It's just deceitful desires. And then there's another verse, Let me I'll just do this one more out there. This is great. I think it's Philippians 113, I believe, where it says that God works in us to will and to work for his pleasure to will and to work to want and to produce his pleasure. Right if you can change a man's desire Wow, that is a powerful spiritual transformation to change what I'm what I find beautiful what I find attractive, you can change that and me, boy, you know, no longer is it just about me restraining from doing the things I know, intellectually, I shouldn't do. But now I have it in my heart to actually strike I for the godly things, because I'm infatuated, I'm enamored by those guys. It's beautiful to me. And I want that, you know, so God who works in this to will and to, to work for His good pleasure. Now that will have the work that desire and the effort now is aligned back to his delight, which is goes back to Genesis one because he says it is good, it is good. It is good, though people are told, literally means delightful or pleasing to God. There's a consistency in Scripture, that's so wonderful. You know, it's almost it's like a painting ever watch a painting, see a painter, or, more likely a TV show where you find like, that scene didn't fit, that character didn't fit, that line didn't fit. You know, that's the artistry in it. Right? When you have a master at work, everything fits all the strokes, the colors, that the comps they all fit. You know, there's that consistency in scripture where everything just fit so beautifully and wonderfully. You don't have a line in the poem that doesn't belong there. Everything just so wonderful.
That's really powerful. Well, and
what I'm hearing you say, on the largest level is we're either individually culturally moving towards chaos, or to cosmos.
Me Man, I wish I had all day, you guys. Yes. Right. When Paul says, put off the old self put on the new self, the old self has been corrupted, you know, the best sound. Peter? Second, Peter, once is that old, you've been you've been free from the corruption of the world. It's that corruption that's that's tied to the old self is tied to death. Right? And Paul says, put off the old self, but on the new self, you know, theater in Second Peter, verse, chapter one, he says that if, if you don't grow in these ways, it's as if you've forgotten that you have been forgiven of your former sins. You noticed, so you can and he calls it a blind believer. He says you're blind in Second Peter chapter one. And so you can if you're a Christian concept, put it on the old self is as if you've forgotten about the mercy and grace of God has washed away your sins, right? And that word to put on in the Greek it relates to actors putting on costumes. So
in the fencers take off a costume,
they take off a cost, and what do you do when you put on a costume? I'm a big geek. So I go to every comic convention, just about Santa WonderCon la Comic Con, you know, I've been to all of them in the past year, and you see people cosplay. And when you want to, you know, when they're walking around, there's like hundreds of them. They're not acting as themselves. They're acting as whoever they are cosplaying as the costume and the makeup is because the idea is when you put on, you embody a new character. And Paul is calling us to Ephesians four. He's calling us to live consistently with who Christ is made us to be second Corinthians 517 are a new creation. So but it's a it's a spiritual discipline, to take off the old self that's ugly, because it's corrupt and decaying, its associated debt, put on a new self and a new self. In Ephesians 424. It's after the image of God is after the image of Christ Second Corinthians 318, where were our glories increasing step by step to match the image of Our Lord. Right. So while on one hand we were made in, in the very beginning, an image of God and redemption were being recreated into the image of Christ. Right and
formed, formed again, in the image of Christ.
Yep. And our part in it is this is couched in this sort of artistic language, our partner is k daily, we have to put on the new self put on Christ, Christ, right in the way that we think in the way that we want desire. And embody that new self. Because that's progressing towards in our sanctification process is progressing towards Cosmos, where the old self is progressing towards kids. And
it's more than sorry, Darrell, go ahead. And it's more than putting on embodying because it's it's actually real, what we are embodying. I mean, I go back to you alluded to this about a couple of minutes ago, where you're actually what what if you could actually change your desires? What if you could actually be reoriented towards beauty instead of towards chaos and ugliness? And I think of Ezekiel 37, where he says, Son of man, can these dry bones live? And a few verses later, he says, Yes, here's how they're going to live, I am going to give you a new heart. And I will settle you and your land, I will, I will put you where you belong, and you will start moving towards beauty and order. So I mean, there's a there's something that God also does besides us just putting on you know, there's a discipline that we have, and then there's the miracle that God does. Absolutely.
It was fought Vaclav Havel, who talks about it I'm walking in truth, living in truth. And what we're saying here is that we are to live in beauty. We're to live in goodness, we're to live in truth. This is the place where we are to walk in this cultural Trinity because it reflects, absolutely reflects the character of God.
Yeah, yeah, I think to, to take from what Dwight and Darrow, you just said, Ephesians 210 begins with four we are God's
workmanship. Yep. We are the poems of God. That's right, blows me away.
That's that's the, that's the foundation For we are God's way, my God's craftsmanship, God's poem, God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus, created in Christ Jesus, and that we're creating the Greek as the equivalent of a borrower, other than the Hebrew, for creating Christ Jesus to do good works to produce good works, which he has prepared in advance for us to do. So I mean, that verse alone unites it all, where it is found at first and foremost on the creative work of God, through Christ, and in Christ, we're being reformed, and reform so that we have now the capacity and the basis, the identity, to draw from to do good works, which were, were called repurposed to do on this earth. And I think this is why I'm going back to what you just said, Darrell, where Matthew 516 matters so much. In that same pasture are called to be salt and, and light in the earth. You know, and Jesus says, Let your good deeds be so evident before men that they would praise your father in heaven. You know, your light, you know, and light that's, that's a lamp that's you don't put a bowl over it. It's it lights up a dark room, you're sitting on the hill. So your your light, your beauty, through your work your virtues and your deeds and manifestation of, of the Christ likeness in you and the Holy Spirit and His roots in you mean, that is, that should be refreshing, and life giving to the world where people are inspired to worship and praise God, to give thanks to God. That's what beauty can do. Beauty can have a profound effect. It can offend some people, but it also can inspire people in the right direction right way. Well, and
beauty grows within the canon. You can't throw out the cannon without ugliness growing. Yeah, chaos growing. It's the framework of the canon that allows beauty to grow in all its manifestations and creates a bigger universe than we normally have to walk in. Yeah.
Brian, I'd like to touch back on something you said earlier about history in the church. He said, You know, the Church lost kind of this understanding of beauty. Could you talk to that a little bit more? What happened? And what what do you mean by the church? You're talking about the evangelical church? You know, we're kind of subculture or what, explain that a little bit more, because I definitely understand what you're saying at one level, because this is all new thinking for me, and I'm a product of that culture. But but I'd love to hear your kind of take on what happened historically.
Yeah. Maybe let me start with a positive example where after seminar, I went to Italy, and I got to stay a couple of nights with some monks. Yeah, it was a 13th century monastery on the top of this mountain, on Asciano. And in art was so integrated with fate, that when we sang Gregorian chants, and when we prayed, when we're in the chapel, praying, art was just constant integrated with faith, because art was a way of enriching the spirit. And Thomas Aquinas would say, you know, it's not that art necessarily changes anything, but it intensifies. You know, the spirit intensifies the worship, and it manifests the theological truths in some sort of visceral way. And so there's that part of it and where we left I believe in it, it's anything in history. It's a progression, you know, when changes happen, it's a long progression. I think on one hand, it had to do with the reaction against iconography. So you had in the Protestant, iconic class, and what they're reacting to really it's in the actual subject, which is corruption is reacting against corruption and misuse of power. And, you know, but but even when you read John Calvin's writing, see he's not completely against art, you know, he refers to, to art and but then You get the 1800s. And then new movements begin movements and modern art that the church became afraid of, I think didn't know really what to do with it. And the more that we removed ourselves and drew a dichotomous line between this is the church and this is the secular world, or more, we removed our spiritual influence and our theology from it, and then eventually affected the church is not that we try to, it's a protective state, that's what it comes down to, we enter into self protective mode, versus integrative mode,
creating a bubble and living in the bubble, living in a bubble, right, which,
you know, it's we were never called to be that even in the Old Testament, you find Israel's meant to be a light among the nations. You know, Israel is such a small nation, if God really wanted them to be separatists, he would have he was stuck on an island, why stick Israel right in the center of everybody else. So if the northern people and want to do trade with with Egypt, they have to cross paths, you know, Israel, it was always God's intention for his people, to be integrated so that through his people, truth would also disseminate into the world, you know, and so but the more we culturally remove ourselves and create a protective bubble, thinking we're trying to preserve our fate that way, but the more we abandon than that, what's in the secular world, and at the same time, then we we surrender the value of the aesthetics of the arts and beauty within our own deductible.
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, it was a reaction, it was reaction against the secularization of the culture, and the secularization of art. And rather than recovering kind of our own heritage in history and biblical foundation for this, we just kind of separated ourselves from art and beauty and said those are kind of Souza, evil, secular things, or whatever it is, yeah.
And an overreaction to the corruption that the Protestant movement became, you know, an overreaction of what we don't need the stained glass, we don't need the right.
No, you're you're exactly right. I remember being in tree or Germany, and I was, you know, I was seeing I was walking in some of these early Protestant churches. And, you know, right across the streets, the Catholic Cathedral, and you know, it's just incredibly full of light and stained glass, and, you know, like this architecture, the architecture, and then you walked in that early Protestant church, it's just this, you know, rectangular box with a, you know, with a, with a, with a pulpit and a big Bible, right, you know, for sure, but it was just striking. You're, you're you're right about
a theology of utility is what I say in exactly even Jellicle church, not a theology of beauty.
Well, and it's very well, the question is, you know, we were against the corruption of art, we were against the secularism, the chaos of art, or bringing chaos into the canon of artists that others would do. But we never what happened to our theology? Did we not have a theology? Did we lose a theology? Seems like if I was never
fundamental level
thinking, the fundamental, I'm a basic, I'm assuming we didn't have a theology of art there because it wasn't lost. It's never there.
Well, I mean, you you can find that theology of our beauty and aesthetics in many of the early Christian writers. Evening, you find it in Augustine and Aquinas, bona Ventura, even as late as Ultras are, you know, you find a lot of the those writings that are still there, Rob Walker, was probably very avant garde in the way he wrote about art and faith in response to modern art culture. And, you know, it's, but in church culture practice, that's where somewhere along the line there, there was a, there was a split, you know, so you have certain Catholic branch continues on, you know, using the arts and beauty. And one of the key practices of that had to do with the fact that when you walked into a cathedral, you're already inundated with theological notions, much like the tabernacle, right? The tabernacle was not, right, those it was not this sort of the pedagogy was through its heart is through the texture of the furniture and the colors and in the control of lighting and the architectural design. You know, you create an emotive effect with the tabernacle,
you create a space. Yeah.
And I ut I heard recently that the the tabernacle in the Old Testament, you know, was modeled after Eden, you know, before the fall, it was kind of that idea that, you know, it's a place a pre fall in place here where we can experience God, you know, so, I heard that I think it was from the Bible project, guys. I thought that was very powerful, though.
Do you write about this in your book?
I do. Talk about the tabernacle, I think in chapter five.
No, I mean about the, the decline in a theology of beauty.
No, I don't. I don't address So much in the purple curtain. Yeah.
This is another book then Right? Anabaptist?
Yeah, I think it probably has to be. Yeah, that's an oxymoron.
Do you feel like, we're kind of turning a corner, though, you know, right now on that subject of recovering kind of this?
There were two things that I don't know if concern is too strong of a word. It might be that there's two main foci. But I have with this subject. On one hand, to answer your question, I think we've learned our lessons, so to speak, because you can't abandon beauty in the arts, because there's a craving now to get back to it. When you find a contemporary church, they're trying to rediscover what that means to make art relevant again. So the two things that I find, which is one, I think, relevance is is, on one hand, what we are trying to do and is appropriate. But relevance as an end goal is too weak. You know, trying to find theological relevance between art and the scriptures is too weak. I think we need a theological framework for building the arts. So that actually the inspiration for the arts is not that we're just trying to figure out how did the arts relate back to Scripture is that the scripture is the inspiration for? Yes. So it's, yeah, and I think the whole like, that is a buzz term relevant, we want to be relevant won't be relevant, right. It's a reaction to trying to recover something that we lost. And it's too weak, you know,
well, to be relevant means how do we, how do we do art that fits in the correct with the culture? Yeah, instead of not only begin with the glory of God, and a theology of beauty, and create from that, something that will impact the culture?
Yeah, yeah. And that relevance was both in relevance and inspiration, you know, are both and, and even a tabernacle was culturally relevant to its time? You know, in the three, the basic architecture of the three chambers, you know, it was mirrored, like a Philistine temple, you know, so that any average person walking by can tell that's a temple. The Tabernacle is a temple devoted to the Lord, you know, but there was something very avant garde about the tabernacle, because it was driven by its theology. And so it's a both and in that the wise artists is always trying to communicate into its current context. So we want to be relevant, yes. But relevance is the only drive and standard is too weak. Because you short change the the inspiration that comes from the theological premise, you know, what you get from scripture, that drives what you create, you know, that can be so much more than simply trying to match what's relevant. Right? So it's a bolt fan in there.
So there's an artist listening to us today. And they want to develop a theology of art. What do they do?
Well, that's a big question. You know, read my book me DeRose book as a start.
No, I agree. That's, that's a good start. I want to answer the
question. I mean, talks like this, we need to have these conversations, because we're, it's resurfacing, things that hadn't even weren't even a conversation before, you know. And that's why you you have a lot of Christian churches that are just big warehouses. Because this is not even the conversation. It's assumed to not even be applicable or relevant. Exactly. Yeah. So this is wonderful. And I think, you know, I think reading scripture as an artist, don't I think that's one of the downfalls of church culture, in postmodern modern times, is artists have generally been marginalized in a lot of church culture. And that meet that makes the artists feel like well, how do I enact or relate to my church? How do I be useful in my church? And they're not no longer applying and artistic thinking in their faith? You know what I mean? But what if you as a writer, you read the Bible as script. What have you as a painter, you see the word pictures. Descriptive, right? What have you as a, as a poet, you pick up on the poetry, the metering the cadence? And let's see, this is incarnational because integrates art and faith in you first, and you recognize one God was an artist to begin with. He's a scientist and an artists ready we just found out that an hour ago, that he is a scientist and an artist, Dennis is one. What have you sought that lens again, and you begin there and like art It's hard to tell anybody. Here are the five steps you want to do you know, any art, you can't tell artists, here's a five step you have to do. It has to be incarnational. And when is incarnation you start to see differently, not only the world, but first and foremost, use, you have another lens to see scripture differently as Aquinas says, you know, you can see the same truth. But when you sing a song to that truth, sing the Scripture, you know, take a passage and use it a script and act out that passage, and you begin to experience it far differently. Yeah, or when you even read things I put, you know, put off and put on, what have you what to think of as, what does that relate to how's that feel? When I'm trying to put on a certain attire in order to portray or, or embody something, you know, I mean, we we all feel that when you know, when you when you put on certain things, that just doesn't feel right. You know, it's not you doesn't reflect and you put on things where, okay, this is who I'm trying to, to present myself to be? We feel that right. It's aesthetic. And what have you apply that understanding the Scripture because the language is there in Scripture? Yes. Right. The language is there. You just have to
be open to discover it. Yes. It's like you said, we don't create beauty as it were. beauty exists, because it exists in God. And he made a universe that was beautiful. We get to discover the beauty, we get to discover the canon of beauty.
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes I think one of the first steps is working through your own presumptions. Our church culture may have dealt to us. And I asked my students, what is the book of Exodus about? You know, my students will say, well, it's about the those 10 plays part in the Red Sea. That's the first 15 chapters 40 chapters, the latter 1/3 is all the tabernacle, no one ever says the tabernacle. Right? Because how often do we actually spend time look at all the details of the tabernacle, tabernacle? Embroidery, right, the the cutting of stones, and the wood and the type of wood and ufer the textile is a multifaceted discipline of artistry used in the construction of the tabernacle. But do we read the Bible with that lens of as an artist, I could probably pick up on this. And I can visually see myself in a traveling through the tabernacle. And what the effect of that would be like, do you pay attention to the lighting? Noticing that you start with open air in the in the outer court? And then then there's no windows? Once you go into the first the first the second chamber, right, all you have is the seven lamp candle lamp stand? And what would the light be? Like? What would the the, the the incense smell like in such an enclosed space? You know, and then the see a stack of bread off to the side? And for the shewbread? What would that be like? I mean, it's appealing to all of your senses in there in order to communicate something theologically to you. But as an artist, if you put on your artists lens, there's a richness in there that to be picked up on. And I would say begin there if you want to develop a theology arts and and you can pick up a couple of books to read and but go back to Scripture, use your artists lens and read. As an artist, don't be afraid to do that. You know? And if it's not there, it's not there. You have to be true to Scripture, right? You're not making it up. But the language is there, the visual imagery is there that saw the meeting, the cadence is there, the poetry is there. Don't be afraid to read to see that with your artists lens.
I've been talking to you if you've taken a thought that I've been teaching for years and taking it to a new level. So I am so blessed by this conversation. But I've been talking for years about the need to develop a biblical theology of vocation. What is your vocation? Start reading the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, through the lens of business through the lens of art through the lens of law, because the Bible is the owner's manual, God has given us the owner's manual. And there's principles there. If we had the eyes to see and the perseverance to read from Genesis to Revelation, keep notes on what we're finding, we would be able to develop a theology for whatever a vocation is. And you've you've said that but you've gone deeper. And you said, if you're a poet, read it as a poet. If you're a painter, read it for the images. Yeah. And I mean, yes, I hope the artists that are listening to us today will begin to start reading the Scripture the way you've described, Brian. It'll turn their life upside down.
Yeah, definitely. One thing that. I mean, for the artists, though, the rubber does meet the road when it comes to vocation. I was talking with a friend recently who's a very, very talented guitar player. And I was actually overhearing this discussion. And he was talking to another guy saying, you know, I love guitar, I'm passionate about it. But one of these days, I'm really going to have to give it up because I need to start preparing for family and being responsible and having less fun. And I overheard it, so I didn't have a chance to respond. But I really broke my heart, hearing him say that. And he's an artist who, like a lot of artists thinks, you know, if I want to pursue this, I'm not going to make money, I probably won't be able to support my family. What would you say to an artist like that? Brian?
Well, that is a question or a struggle for both Christians and non Christians. Right? It's a, it's always that old, kind of understand that No parent wants to hear their child wants, say they want to be an artist. Life of struggle, I come back to calling, you know, if God's called you to it, you got to do it. You know, and that's between you and the Lord. And one of the things I teach my students, especially those trying to work in the film industry is you have to develop a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit. I was just rereading this morning, about in, in Second Peter one about how Peter, Peter says, you know, the Holy Spirit is or Christ is revealed to get on my end is coming. Well, how does he know that x 20. Paul says, I'm just constrained by the Holy Spirit to go back to Jerusalem, I don't know what awaits there. But the Holy Spirit continues to warn that I'm going to face trouble. And every city I go to mean, these gentlemen, these men had just as deep sensitivity to Holy Spirit, and they went with the Holy Spirit lead them, and then they didn't go where the Holy Spirit didn't want them to go, right. Or they couldn't go to the Tonya or my Sia, you know, so they couldn't go to those places. But his deep sensitivity to the Holy Spirit is so key, you know, in order to understand your calling, and if your call, you got to do it, you know, then that's, that's the infirm for me, I think that's been the journey of my life is wherever God calls, we take that journey, we take the path, and we go on the adventure.
And, and he's calling he's gonna, you know, he's gonna make a way for you in that, you know,
I would also suggest a twin of that. The church needs to have a theology of beauty.
Exactly. The church should be backing up these people called called into the art Exactly.
And if she had a theology of beauty, instead of divorcing beauty from not having a theology of beauty and separating beauty from the church, if she had a theology of beauty, how do you support the arts? How do you support the arts in the architecture of your church? How do you support artists who are in your church? How do you create a space for them to grow in their work? I have a friend in Lisbon, Portugal, who was the poet laureate a few years ago, in Portugal, he's a pastor. And he has his doctorate like you and philosophy. So he's a pastor, a philosopher, and an artist. And twice a year, he turns his church, the building into a place to celebrate the arts in his city. And, of course, being a pastor who is an artist, he emphasizes beauty in the arts. But now the church is sponsoring a place where the arts are celebrated in the community. Yeah, and he has a theology of beauty. So he understands what the church how the church can use beauty, to engage the culture and engage the community.
Yeah, I love that you brought this up era. I mean, there's that there's a response to that from a macro level, you know, the macro level of what if, but, historically, the church was a epicenter,
or as a font for beauty,
or beauty for the arts. You know, the reason why the David statue was created the reason why, you know, the Sistine Chapel was was created, you know, the Last Supper, you know, that the church was the epicenter that developed the arts, science, right, science was prompted because of the church. Yeah, of God creating this incredible, wonderful world. We want to study it. You know, what if the church took up that mantle again and create that complex? We're now artists don't feel like they're displaced. But there is a fertile ground from which they work from within the church and they have that support. They have that discipleship. I think that's key is artists being discipled and artists being given opportunity to create Mmm. And there's a different kind of empowering that takes place there. There's something else that you mentioned too, which I think is very important, which is this theology of the arts and, and I do believe I agree that many Christian artists, I think, don't see the full value of them being artists and whether it's visual arts, acting, writing music, music, because there isn't a theological understanding that provides a theological value for the arts. Right.
Yeah. And part of that is, the church today doesn't begin reading scripture with Genesis one shapeE greened begins reading scripture with Genesis three, and the fall, because the fall sets up the cross. Genesis one sets up, God is the first artist, he is the creator. And he has made, as you have said, in His image, to co create, to create, be human beings to be creative, to create music, to create art, to create dance poetry. That's why we're here. But when we start with Genesis three, we miss all that. And so we really need to call pastors and the church back to Genesis one, to begin to build that framework of a theology of beauty and a theology of art, then these things will flow from that theology.
Yeah, I think it's I think Darrow is correct. You know, the, starting with sin, you know, the story of redemption of salvation, that also becomes very narrow, you know, I'm saved, to go to heaven, as opposed to I'm saved to kind of recover what was there in Genesis chapter one, and I'm saved to be an artist, I'm saved to be an artist, exactly. To really fill this world with beauty, that people evangelicals don't tend to think that way. Brett Brown, we need to wrap up. This has been such a rich conversation. We love to have you back on and continue it. i i Well, Darrow has got something he wants to say before
you do this. Yeah. Two things. I'd like to invite you. We're doing a webinar every six weeks or so for a small community of Balladeers that we're trying to get going artists, for artists, young artists, who are Christians who are struggling with, what does it mean to be an artist in the world today? What does it mean to be an artist in the church today? Where do I fit, and we're trying to create a place to encourage them. And we do a webinar every six weeks or so where we invite an artist in and just have the conversation we're having today. And I would love to be able to invite you to a webinar sometime this summer after you've gotten to Dallas and have unpacked your stuff. to have you join us for a webinar. This what happened today is beautiful, Brian. And I just wish the people that are part of this little group could have heard that it's a different group than our podcast, but
they can listen to the podcast
promote this podcast. And the second thing, send me your address, if you would I want to send you a copy of a call for Balladeers. Sure, yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah, the subtitle is pursuing beauty, pursuing art and beauty for the discipling of nations. I love that. And I wish I'd read your book before I wrote it, because it would have been a better book, it would have been a much better book. So if you'd send us your address, we're not where you are now, but where you will be in a month or so I'd like to send you a copy.
Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. Yeah, that sounds lovely.
I was just going to ask Brian as we wrap up just a kind of a practical question. Because I think a lot of people that are listening, they probably are resonating with what we're saying, but they're not quite sure what to do with it in their daily lives. And how do I bring this into my daily life or my discipleship? Maybe of a new believer, you know, what, what does this aspect look like? Kind of very practically in day in daily life? What are your thoughts on that?
Are you saying either my mind is trying to focus in here or would you be asking more like a personal level like spiritually or vocational kind of steps?
Yeah, just first, personally, I'm thinking I'm thinking for example of again, good goodness, truth and beauty. And I think we we tend to know I'm thinking to have discipling let's say discipling a new believer, you know, they need to I need to I needed to teach them the importance of truth and honesty, we need to be honest people, we need to be have integrity. Everyone, all Christians understand that. And even kind of holiness or goodness, you know that, you know, that we need to be, there needs to be a level of honesty, integrity, righteousness. But beauty, I think is something that we don't intentionally kind of bring into the discipleship of new believers. Or even into our daily lives. I'm so I'm just trying to get practical with with that, like, what does that mean, you know, for for Christians, just everyday Christians? How do we boy, this
is such a great question. And it's, again, I wish I had all day with the gentleman.
Well, maybe we can we can start here and make that could be the focus of our next conversation. This
could be another book for you. Yeah. Well, I have
so many layers to answer this question. But maybe I think I'll go back to the very core answer, I think, to this question, which relates all the way back to the very beginning when we first started this podcast podcasts. And it made you know, to me it's very practical, but it's practical to an artists to maybe to maybe it's still too vague. But the idea of beauty when you know, what is the goal of beauty, it's the fulfill the first and greatest commandment, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. So I'd say the practical thing. Discover I think a lot of people may know God as a counselor, best friend, maybe knows God as someone who practically provides, you know, opens doors, answers prayers, but set those things just table them. And no, God has been beautiful. That's Jonathan, in his book, religious affections. That's his challenge to Christians, is can you discover the excellency the wholeness to perfection the sheer beauty of God for one effect, which is to inspire in you, a love for him? A deep sheer love for him? And why is this practical because our whatever our genuine core greatest love, is, or loves our it's it orients everything else in our lives, what we will sacrifice for what we spend resources on what we want to become like how we will shape who we are, and what choices we make is all steered by our greatest love. If discovering the beauty of God in a progressive level, day by day through our discipleship and our spiritual formation, guided by the Holy Spirit model for us by the resurrected Jesus, and those who will walk alongside of us that God provides to cyclers accountability partners, helps us to discover the beauty of God. So that inflames in us this deep ship passion that love for God, while other things start to find its place in life, because I love become central to us. And other things will find its proper place and choices become a lot clearer what we should do in any given situation. What values we ought to develop. But as Jonathan Edwards says, The Greatest drive in life is love. So let that be a love for God fueled and inspired by your encounter with God's sheer beauty.
Wow, that's a good place to end it. Brian today. Yeah, you know, I'm just so touched by the depth, I can tell you're a great professor. And I would love to take care of classes. So thanks for letting us sit in a little bit on your class today and just just experience the, you know, just great depth of insight that you've got here. So, listen, we will be praying for you as you make your move to Dallas and pray that that goes really well and look forward to bringing you back on again at some point. So
thank you guys. Appreciate it. Yeah,
and thank you all for listening to another episode of ideas have consequences, the podcast of the discipled nations.
Thank you all so much for listening to this discussion with Dr. Brian Cham. I hope all of you enjoyed it as much as I did. Again, to find out more about Brian's book, the purple curtain, living out beauty and faith and culture from a biblical perspective. Or Darrow Miller his newest book, a call for Balladeers, pursuing art and beauty for the discipling of nations. Just head over to this episode's landing page, which you will see linked in the description. And if that landing page isn't up to date, we will get it out tomorrow. And of course, you can also find those books on Amazon or wherever you get books, as image bearers of God, we are all artists. But if you are specifically called into the arts, and you have not already joined us for one of the call for Balladeers webinars, don't miss the next opportunity which will be on June 6 hosted by Darrow and Tim Williams, with this month's special guest professional animated artist, Samuel Felix. To learn more about that just head over to a call for balladeers.com Lastly, I wanted to give our friend Jessica Shakira from beautiful minds Academy a shout out for connecting us with today's wonderful guest during our discussion with her on episode 55. If any of you also have a recommendation of a guest that you would like to hear come on the show. Just let us know by sending us a message on social media or commenting on the episode landing page. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry you You can find us on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube or on our website which is disciple nations.org. Thanks again for listening and I hope you're able to join us next Tuesday here on ideas have consequences.
