Sex on Set with Intimacy Coordiantor Katherine O’Keefe
2:40AM Feb 22, 2022
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Hi, I'm Alisha Rai.
And I'm Sarah Wendell. Welcome to love struck daily where we deliver a love story every single day straight to your headphones. Today, we're gonna talk about sex. Oh, sex in movies and TV. How does it work? What is the actual intimacy to make a really hot moment look sexy what is going on behind the scenes we are going to find out today I'm in love with the I'm in love with you. So I I must ask Do you like sex scenes? Or do you fast forward?
No, I I watched them so long as they are, you know, important and pivotal to the story. I really, I love a good sex scene when it conveys something that the characters are going through, or it, you know, is really needed for the plot. And I think I honestly think that's just a holdover from being a romance writer where that's, you know, one of the romance writing one on ones make it a part of the arc make it a part of the story.
I did an interview with Lisa Kleypas. And she said that a good sex scene both start something and causes a problem. Oh, it should create it should create a problem as much as it solves a problem. So if it's solving the tension between two characters, that should also create another problem.
Do you have a favorite sex scene in a movie or TV show?
Thank you. What is it? Okay, in the movie, Romancing the Stone. Oh, yeah. Okay. It's fine.
So if you if you go into a crowd of romance readers and authors and you say Romancing the Stone,
do that. So that's the noise. You get the noise you get the grip
that movie continues to have on us. Oh day.
Yep. And the scene in particular that I love is there, the covers are down to their waist, there is sideboob Mm hmm. And I think Michael Douglas is lying on top of Kathleen Turner, and they are kissing in the bed, and the camera pans down to the floor. And he's been trying to get this map from her. And you see his hand reach in between the mattresses where he has hidden the map because he has already stolen it from her. And he very awkwardly tries to shove it back into the bag to give it back to her so that she will not know that he stole it. I mean, there was a lot of sexual tension that was being addressed in the sex scene. But also, it showed that he was going to change the dynamic of their relationship and change how he was going to treat her and I just love that scene so much.
Yeah, I remember it very well. It's one of those things where it's like, you know, changes something seared in your brain solves a problem and creates a problem all at the same time. I love it. Now we have a very
cool guest today. I'm so excited to be so excited to tell us exactly how these scenes get made. Please welcome intimacy coordinator Catherine O'Keefe, Catherine has worked on top Hollywood shows like Grey's Anatomy, and the L word. And has just finished up work on the brand new Hulu show. Pam and Tommy please welcome Catherine
welcome Catherine, thank you so much for joining us. I am so excited to talk to you. I am so excited to be here. I can't wait. So we got a copy of your resume. And I have to start off with this question. Most people hear the initials IPA and think beer. But you have a whole different set of initials. What is the IPA that is not the beer,
Id stands intimacy Professionals Association. It is one of the major organizations that is geared around intimacy coordinators. It's sort of the more West Coast la based one, please
tell me everything just start from the moment you were born and get us to this moment. I'm kidding. What I'm sure you get this question all the time, and I appreciate your patience with me. What is an intimacy coordinator? And how did you get started in the IPA? That is not a beer?
Yeah, for sure. Um, so an intimacy coordinator is someone whose job it is to make sure that scenes with simulated sex and nudity are being filmed in a safe and appropriate way. And sort of like as a side note, supinated sex is kind of a like not really the way it sounds as like a layman term. It's anything that is more than a passionate kiss. So anything with hands involves we kind of class under simulated set Oh, which I know like is not actually like what the word sounds like it means but that's just how we handle the sort of like dividing line about whether the scene needs a contract and needs a closed set or kind of like all those union regulations shit into the scene or not.
So anything anything past first base, you're on board.
Yeah, pretty. Wow. Okay.
So how did you get started in intimacy coordinating this is this is very cool, because you hear a lot of horror stories about production and you're here to Make it all safe and choreographed in a way that is respectful. And this is so cool, tell me everything.
I had that sort of very Hollywood of experience. And I got into this because I was standing exactly at the right place at exactly the right time. So I this was right after the meeting movement. So it was about I would probably say about eight months after that, and I was working on a show that I don't think this is on my resume. So I think it can be kind of honest about it, it was a bit of a difficult show, it had a bit of a difficult culture, whatever that was, they ended up hiring like one of if not the first intimacy coordinator who was working in LA. And literally, I got into it because I was putting out bagels at a meet, you know, working a completely different job. And no one else would talk to this intimacy coordinator. So we just struck up a conversation. This woman, Amanda Blumenthal, who was the head of IPA, was interested in starting a training program. And she invented the streaming program for like, five months. And then I was certified and I started working.
Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah. So what are some of the things that you do to make a person or actors feel comfortable and sexy on set, like what kinds of communication happen in the intimate moments that you're creating?
Generally, what I do is I talk to the director first, and I get their vision for the scene that's kind of like as full as possible for what they have. And then I talked to the actors one on one, and that's kind of a broader conversation. Like, it's kind of a conversation about, like, if they've done these scenes before, like, if they had like, what kind of experiences they've had, you know, if they haven't, like, kind of, like, walk them through what it's gonna look like. And then we get a little bit more in sort of, like the specifics of like, what their boundaries are. So we talk about the director's vision. And like, I try to be somewhat specific, because I think, you know, if I just walked out to interview, probably people have thought about boundaries a bit and are just like, hey, what's your boundaries for a sex scene? Like that? Like, who can answer that? Like, that's, like, not actually very specific at all. But like, you can have a little bit more if you have a plan for the scene, and then you're talking about, okay, this is going to be a scene where, like, you know, you guys are making out in some kind of head disappears down your body at a frame, then it can be a conversation about like, you know, are you okay, having a haircut touched? You know, your neck kissed? You know, sometimes people have like, how on a very practical level, like shoulder pain, like, is there anything we should like avoid to make sure like we're going to be filming this, probably for a couple of hours, at least, I would say a pretty common one is a lot of people are very comfortable having someone kind of kiss down their chest but don't actually want someone to necessarily like kiss their breasts. Like getting that's when that pops up every so often. So one thing that is kind of interesting if you want to get into the nitty gritty is a nudity is very segmented on what you're allowing to be seen. So you can choose between like, above the waist topless, which is your breasts, if you're a person who has breast or you can do side, which is like even see the side breast but absolutely no nipple, and then you can do the same for the rear. So it's a you can be really quite segmented about what you're allowing to be seen. Um, you can also say like, I'll do topless nudity with like, a shear bra. But like, I wouldn't take the bra off. Like that counts as nudity, because it's sheer. So like, there's a whole bunch of like, very kind of specific conversations to be had about, like, what is on screen. And it just takes a lot of work because like you couldn't have to, like the director has to know what they're asking for. And then the actor has to know like, what they're okay with within that, and then you then find sort of like the alchemy of all those things to create this scene. Wow. I have a question. Yeah,
so I know that actors have to wear like the the sock. Yes. The little covery part. Yeah. Do you have to get those in in in like lots of different skin tones to match the actors skin? Or are they like green screened? What
uh, what are like logistical Good question.
gets into some funny union stuff. So technically, I do not provide modesty garments.
Thank you. That's what they're called. I just said the sock.
Gently. There's different ones for different people. Technically, it is actually the costume department that provides those but yes, generally they are there to they are they try to match them to the actor skintone often it's not. It's not an exact science. Like they don't like hand diet, but they're sort of like, you know, a spectrum.
We shall make you into a Kendall stem stuff.
But actually, that's a kind of a fun thing that so I know that the the government I believe like in kind of a famous case, there's that Supreme Court Justice who said like you can't define porn, but like, I know what it is when I say it. Yeah, yeah. So that is he was a member of sag. Technically, there is like a very clear line about when something is simulated sex versus when it veers into pornography, and that is that you cannot ever have an actor's genitals touch another person's skin ever. So even if it's a non sexual scene, so this came up on a scene I worked on a while ago where it was like a stunt. It was like a man running like fully nude and getting tackled. So we still had to make sure that there was a way by the time he got tackled that he was wearing modesty garments be so that like you know there wasn't like nothing like kind of rolled, or like, accidentally, there wasn't any accidental touching
There was no shifting. Wow. So cool. Oh, yeah. A little peek behind peek behind the movie magic. Do you have a favorite scene that you've coordinated by any chance? Or like a favorite? You know, show you worked on asking you to pick between your children or anything but
Oh, yeah. So I think a scene that I just thought ended up looking really, really beautiful. What's in the second season of the elder generation queue? A little bit of a spoiler if you haven't seen it, but between bed and PIPA in the art gallery, I really liked how that one turned out. I thought it was so gorgeous. I think Jennifer Beals is someone who is very, very talented at these kinds of scenes. And I think more like I think the thing that actually after working with her I always tell actors is that like desire is like what sells a scene like the way you look at another actor kind of matters much more than like, skin or even what your hands are doing. Like it's all about how you look at that other person's
smoldering. Yes. Yeah,
that's fantastic. Yeah, that's how you kind of get them. So to speak in the mood like you. Oh, yeah. You want them like oh, how do you feel sexy? It's yeah, I like that. It's like using your senses.
Many of fanfic has been born on two characters looking at each other for point five seconds on screen who never touch. Now, what do you do if actors are feeling uncomfortable? And I realized that a lot of your work is preparation so that that doesn't happen? But how do you help someone feel in the moment and express that desire with looks and physicality when it is something that is also just part of the job they are doing that day?
Yeah, for sure. I think there's also like, different layers to uncomfortable. So it's I do feel unsafe. Yeah. Yeah. Feel like a true just like, if I feel a little like off or like, do you just feel like oof, like, this is awkward. And like, this hurts my back? Like, slightly different answers, like one and c feels like and Where's that coming from? It's, you know, can be very different things. And people are when it comes to like, how they feel about sex and their bodies. You can never make any assumptions about where anyone is with that, ever. No,
it's you're so right.
So like, on a practical level, are there things I can do to make people more comfortable to like, you know, make sure people have water, make sure people have mints like there are a lot of rules on set that are around actor comfort that you can just make sure people are being enforced. Like one of them is like, crew members aren't supposed to go in and reset stuff until like actors are roped up, right? You know, like, there's like little practical things you can really do, you can make sure that people know what to say if they need to stop filming. So they're not just like frozen in the moment. And then you can kind of keep an eye on and see if anyone looks a little off and just check in on them. Obviously, that's a huge part of it was like those are sort of like practical, uncomfortable things. I do think for a lot of people, these scenes are awkward. You know, like, you're just awkward and you do feel nervous, like you feel vulnerable. I think that's a thing that is a little hard to get rid of completely.
Is there a scene you've worked on? Where the chemistry was just like, completely off the charts? Yes, definitely. But can you tell us about it? Or is this
if you can say we understand.
It is one of those things like when I work with actors, like the detail me a lot of private things I do try to err on the side of the code. But I will say there is there's one scene where I've worked on like 25 shows, I don't think anyone will be able to figure this out. Where I truly thought the couple like was actively dating and that I found out later, but people like No, no, they're just like best friends. And I was like, I don't think so like dating. I never got any confirmation. So maybe they were just really you know, their Steam character. They're going method. Wow, good
actors they were then dating.
So are there any other touches or gestures or things that have happened in a scene that come across on screen is very intimate, but that might not be in real life?
Oh, that's such a great question. Okay, so we're going to give you guys a little secret, as long as this like doesn't, I hope this isn't random sex scenes for anyone. People argue about this. To my mind. There's four types of sex scenes. There's romantic, there's horny, there's affectionate and there's dominant. And generally romantic sex scenes, you actually don't do a ton of touching of like what we think of as like erotic areas. It tends to be like a lot of really like long slow touches like a finger running down an arm running down a back like you tend to it's like very, like sort of almost like extensive long movements to get across. This is sort of like a very like, like scene about people that are like falling in love. And then if you're working on a scene where like the predominant feeling is like horniness, then you want it to be much faster paced, you want it to be a lot grabby or you want it to be like a lot often, like vertical like, you're standing up. You're putting someone on a counter. There's like an urgency to it.
Yes, right here right now. I don't care if the bad guys are chasing us. We must do it in the stairwell.
Exactly. And then if you're doing like affectionate is often like kind of somewhere in the middle where like people who know each other and kind of that urgent whoring that's in that urgent romance is gone, but there's a lot more laughter There's often like maybe something goes a little wrong like that kind of feeling of like these people know each other. And then like dominant obviously you're playing with like power dynamics. But yeah, I would say especially like, if you watch scenes that like the that what they're trying To hit on his romance is often they're not actually touching erotic zones very much at all.
I never thought about classifying them that way now, like everything makes more sense to me in terms of movie scenes,
what has being an intimacy coordinator taught you about real life relationships? And do you have advice for people about intimacy and communication? Yes, I would say
from working on these kinds of scenes that I think communication is really hard, like, I do think it is. And I think one of the things that I tell directors that I tell actors, and I would really advise for filmer life, is that actually like, the more specific you are, the more useful that conversation is going to be, like, if you are, you know, like, maybe if you want to talk about sex with someone that you don't know, well, or has been your, you know, spouse of, like, 20 years, just sort of being like, oh, like, what, what are you interested in sometimes isn't like a specific enough answer. Like, if you have something in mind, I have found even if a person doesn't want to do that at all, it like sparks a conversation like, Yeah, so one of the things that happens all the time is directors will tell me like, oh, it just has to be a sex scene. But like, whatever the actors are comfortable with, I don't care. Like just like, leave it to them, like in their boundaries, you know, I just want them to be comfortable. And I totally understand that impulse. I think it comes from a great place. But actually, I don't think it's always very useful for actors. Because just being like, Okay, go ahead, just do whatever you're comfortable with kind of leaves people frozen. Well, sometimes if you have more of a specific idea for a scene, even if the actor is it's truly like a place where everyone feel safe. And like there's like a creative place to like, you know, working, then if you're like, Okay, why don't we do this, this and this, How's everyone feeling about that? You know, what do you guys think, right? That then leaves you owe them something to bounce off of something to be like, actually, let's not do this. Like, what about this? I think this makes more sense. And you can find something creative and interesting. Why you think it is much harder for most people to be like, okay, just do whatever makes you feel good. Go.
Yeah. And then you're like, What are you then you're relying on an external definition of what you've seen in a sex scene, or what you've seen this intimacy, and you don't get to define it for yourself, which is part of what all the communication does, it helps you define it for yourself.
Yeah. So like, I think if you're a person in a in a relationship, and you are interested in talking about, like, actual sex, I think one of the things that can be really helpful, even if it feels scary, is to talk about specific things in a smaller way to be like, oh, like did that thing work like into give like feedback in a smaller wave into like, actually talk about like specific things in a way. Hopefully, that doesn't feel too loaded? You know, that I think that specificity, and just treating it as like, a little bit smaller, instead of sort of like a big referendum on like, sex in your relationship. I think that can be really helpful. Hopefully.
That's amazing.
That's great advice.
So when you're when you're watching movies and television, do you find yourself examining the scenes from a professional perspective? Is this like an occupational hazard?
Absolutely. So because in the world of it, I can usually pinpoint what training program, the intimacy coordinator came from, from watching a sex scene and I have not been wrong. Yeah. Wow. That's so cool. It is I am sure I'm super obnoxious, because I'll watch like any scene with sex or nudity. And I'll just, like, annoy probably my poor girlfriend to death, because I'll just be like, That's what was like their nudity writer. Like, that's what was going on. Okay, I
went to watch lots of movies. But I just want you to know, I
would love to get like a play by play breakdown of like, some kind of, maybe next time you can come and we'll do that.
Thank you so much for talking with us. I could seriously talk to you for like an hour. This is just fascinating. Yeah. And I really, I really mean it. Thank you for doing what you do. Because it makes me know that there is, you know, ethical care going on for the people who make the entertainment that we consume. So thank you.
Thank you for having me. It's been so lovely.
Yeah, we'd love to have you come back. I'm telling you next time, we'll we'll do a live watch along
top sexy and top sex scenes that we love. Yeah. Oh, I would love that. I learned so much during this conversation. And before we go off with our day, let's grab some love to go. What is your takeaway from our conversation today, Alicia?
I think my takeaway is just that you got to talk. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Intimacy requires communication. So you gotta you gotta just talk to each other. And it's the best way to resolve any problems and to stop any problems from cropping up.
And if you want to deepen the intimacy that you have, talking is a really good way to do that. Yep. We want to know what your favorite love scenesse Seriously, you need to tell us because I mean, we could just watch Supercuts on YouTube all day long. You can email us at law Stark daily at Frohlich dot media if you have a love story or a love scene that you want to tell us about. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at lovestruck daily where they don't block us we'll share some love scenes that we love on our social media. You can leave a review subscribe spread the word we want more love for everybody.
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