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Hi, my name is George Abraham and welcome to this edition of Eyeway Conversations. Today I have a very interesting guest on the show, Madhubala Sharma, who is a professional with a multinational company. She's a family woman. She's a highly educated person and a very interesting conversationalist. Welcome Madhu to the show.
Thank you so much, George, thank you for those words of introduction. I think that's a little too much means especially the highly educated one.
You know, many years ago, I think it was in the early 90s. I remember my wife coming home, she used to work, did some assignment with the school called Faith Academy. And she came back and told me that she had seen two young girls who are blind. And she was marveling at the independence and the energy of those two young girls. And over time, I realized that one of them was you.
Oh wow.
So, so let's start from there, you know, your days at faith Academy. And later on, I believe you went to Delhi public school. So how is it like to be in a mainstream school? And what was your experience like?
Firstly, it was, it was fantastic to be in a mainstream school, I can't imagine my life otherwise. Second, that other girl that your wife would have met and seen was my elder sister. So we are two sisters and one brother. I have a younger brother and the elder sister and my sister and I, Monica and I, Didi and I, both of us have the visual disability. And Faith Academy, So our resource school was National Association for the Blind. And we were one of our first kinds, who went to first Faith Academy, then DPS, and then of course, paved way for many others, to many others with blindness. But it was, it was interesting, because, you know, we got to learn a lot. I got to learn that level of independence, that level of, you know, problem solving. And because back in those days, George, you would remember that we didn't really have a lot of, you know, ebooks. We did not have so much, you know, easy access to the computer as well. And so getting our books used to be a task, recording our lectures or, you know, classes, and making notes in Braille used to be a little difficult. We used to write our exams using the scribe, in early grades we used to give our exams using, appearing for our exams using orally as well. Yeah, I remember those days as well. But the kind of independence and learning it gave us, I remember, I wouldn't hesitate to go up to the teacher and talk to her and tell her that Ma'am, I need this help. But I also remember that I wasn't a very, you know, well spoken person. I didn't really know how to speak in English. Day one in you know, in a convent school, it's usually people speak in English, and they used to be a fine if you wouldn't talk in English. So day one, I would talk only in Hindi. And I remember I told my teacher 'ma'am ji hamari diary kab milegi?' And then the teacher was a South Indian and she in a South Indian accent I don't remember whether it was Tamil or you know, keralite. But in the South Indian accent, she said something in English, which I don't remember till date. And then she another period went by and again I asked 'Maam ji hamari diary kab milegi'? So from there to now that journey has been possible, because I got that kind of mainstream exposure. I got to be with friends, you know who are sighted. I got to play with them. I got to learn with them, learn from them, seek their help and teachers and NAB's support. So that's what happened in my mainstream School and everything else as well. Making, you know having relationships making boyfriends, bunking classes, having fun, enjoying life getting scolded, did writing on behind teachers backs. Did everything like any other regular child.
Yeah, so Madhu you know, getting to school and going home every day, one of the things my wife said, the two of you would very happily get into the bus and then go, so tell me a little bit about, you know, those journeys. Were your parents kind of very positive about letting you travel on your own two blind girls in the in the buses of Delhi, or did they have to kind of train you to get do this.
So it was a journey, George.It was. So when we were little, we used to travel by the school bus. And my parents would drop us to the bus stop and ensure that we board the bus. And in the afternoon, when they would, when we would come back from school, somebody or my mom definitely would be there to pick us up. That continued even when we went to DPS. And when we went to DPS (Delhi Public School), it used to be like a 13 hour long day for us. My mom would put us on the school bus. In the morning, we would get picked by the NAB (National Association for the Blind) van, we would go to NAB and study their, complete our homework. And in the evening, our dad would pick us up and take us back home in his chartered bus. But then gradually, you know that, to my mind, I thought that this cannot continue forever. I remember very vividly this time when I was in grade 10. And I told my father, that this cannot continue forever. And you know, we have to be independent. This was during summer vacation. We were learning computers at National Association for the Blind. So my dad would leave his chartered bus or you know, deboard the bus, drop us to NAB, take another Delhi bus and that bus service used to be very, very poor, and then go back to his office to Nehru place. So from Mayapuri,west Delhi to RK Puram and then finally to Nehru Place and then that drill continued in the evening as well. So that's when I told him that, you know, you observe us, we will go independently, we will use our white cane. And let us go walk, you know, on our own. Let let's work with it. And let's reach NAB on our own. And I asked him to observe us for a couple of days. And one instruction that I clearly told him was that do not help us. Because if he would come to help us and others won't, and we wouldn't be able to find our ways well, so I just told him to observe silently, his hesitations were definitely justified. My mom's and his I mean, imagine two girls that too pretty girls going independently on the road, and blind and pretty girl so that was the case. But finally he agreed to what I said and he let us be, he observed us for a couple of days. He got that confidence. And since then, there hasn't been any looking back. Really. We've traveled independently in on buses we've traveled, you know, I've traveled abroad. I've traveled within the country for work, personally as well. And all independently.
Yeah, so after you finished with school, you joined Lady Shriram college. Two questions here, one, was it difficult for you as a blind young woman to get admission to a college? Two, did you get the subject of your choice?.
Um, getting admission to a college wasn't difficult, but thankfully, I had the marks to you know, get the subject that I really wanted to get. That's a separate story that I didn't get what I wanted to get, but admission in college for sure I did. And I remember you know to your part on being independent also.I filled out the forms for my colleges also independently. I went on the DTC, the Delhi buses to various colleges in North Delhi and LSR because I didn't want my dad to struggle or didn't want my mom to struggle. So I did all of that independently. And then there was this point when I have wanted to pursue psychology. I've been a people's person and I've been very keen to understand human behavior and you know, learn about emotional intelligence and various other things. And this was since since my school days, because in grade 11 and 12, I studied psychology and my didi, my sister also went to LSR. So I had gone to LSR when I was in grade 11, to attend a class on emotional intelligence. So from there my interest to study psychology grew. But when I filled up the form, and I said I want to pursue psychology, there came an inhibition, and a limitation from the college management and college staff, the principal, everybody else there, they said that I couldn't pursue psychology, that's a perception. Nowadays, people have been studying psychology, people have been, you know, building careers also in that field. But back then, they said that you won't be able to do psychology because of the visual disability, there are so many practicals that you need to take, you wouldn't be able to do this, you wont be able to do that. So on and so forth. So finally, I thought that, if that's the case, then I settled with English literature. So I studied English. And I wasn't a very, very good student, like, you know, like you said, I am highly educated. I am a simple graduate. But I studied, I just barely managed to pass. I used to spend a lot of my time in the back lawns of the college, gossiping with friends, having fun. And then also, of course, completing my assignments because they had to be done.
Well, they say, or some wise man says that life is an ongoing University. So you're being educated all the time. And in that context, I think you're pretty well.
You're right, you're right, you know, and there's one more blessing that I had George, adding to what you just said that I wanted to pursue Psychology. But I learned psychology, I learned human behavior through my career, through my job. And I learned so much that trust me, no degree could ever teach me as much as I learned in these sixteen, seventeen years of my professional journey, being a learning and development professional.
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Yeah, that brings me to my next curiosity, which is normally a visually impaired person or a blind person finds it difficult to get a job. Tell me your story.
I've been blessed. And I did a couple of roles and finally settled in the role that I love the most. When I was a child, George, I had heard that people with blindness may find this difficult. They can either become musicians, or you see them, you know, begging or you see them being music teachers. And that's about it. And nothing against music. But I'm not a good singer. I have never tried my hand in singing and I don't know somehow that wasn't what I wanted to do. And in my mind, I would think that possibly I wouldn't get a job. I would mimic teaching. I would walk in my mom's sandals. And you know, drape around her dupatta like a sari and just play that make believe teachers game. But in my mind somewhere, I would think I wouldn't be able to do anything else. Maybe I will just you know clean utensils somewhere. Because that was something that I did very well at home. But finally through National Association for the Blind, when I was in college, you like I said in college, I didn't study a lot. I started working. So one. when I was in final year, I got an opportunity through NAB to work with GE Capital and National Services. They were trying their hand at bringing in people with blindness to interview people, and assess them on their voice and accent skills for hiring them. So a lot of people were interviewed, two were selected and then two of us underwent extensive training. And finally I cleared the training and I scored the highest marks in the batch with sighted colleagues. I did that for about 10 months as a part timer. Then I went on to test Jaws, the screen reading software, I did that for about 13 months. And then Anubhuti Mittal is the lady who, you know, got me to GE. And then finally she got me to another company that I'm currently working with. I've been working with them for 16 years, first as a voice and accent trainer, and then for the good 15 years, I've been a human minds Engineer. My husband is a Software Engineer, I'm a human minds engineer, as a part of behavioral learning and development and corporate training.
Yeah.
So now that you've talked about behavioral mind engineer,would you like to kind of quickly tell us what this is? And, and why is it important?
So, we are all human beings, and we are all bundles of joy. And we're all bundles of emotions as well. And like you rightly said, we all constantly need to learn and grow. So within our organization, I spend time in grooming people on their people management skills, their leadership skills, their communication skills, their team building skills, and a lot, you know, a lot, many other skills as well. So we do that level of hand holding. And I do content development as well. Like I said, you know, that I learned a lot. So I got myself certified. I got the opportunity to certify myself on personality profiling tools as well. I'm a certified practitioner for whole brain thinking. I teach emotional intelligence concepts like that, workshops on Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Dr. Stephen R. Covey. And then also, I'm an NLP practitioner, neuro linguistic programming. So I work with people to, you know, help them, program their language, linguistic skills as well. Right, I can put it that way.
So that's interesting. So before we go forward, you know, you seem to be a people's person, you seem to have a lot of friends, a lot of relationships. As a visually impaired person, I've noticed that in many places, in colleges and schools, even socially you know, visually impaired people tend to stick together and connect with the outside world is only when they need help. What are your views on this? Meaning how have you kind of been able to beat this stereotype? And what do you think is the secret behind what you managed? Is it all about laughing and smiling? Or is there more to it?
That's definitely one very, very important thing. Because if you smile that brings a smile on the other person's face as well. But definitely, there's more to it in the sense that you see, we say that put the person first, disabilities second, and only when we can truly start practicing this ourselves, can we help the world also to see us. you know, like that. If in our minds, constantly, we keep thinking that, Oh, I'm blind, I need to be and you know, I just need to reach out to the world just for heLP, then I have, I'm enabling and, you know, I'm thriving, and I'm, I'm only building on that, that notion further, that, you know, hey, there's is a different world. Ours is a different world. There is no different world. We live in one universe, one world. And so, the one thing that I have in my mind since childhood, and possibly that is because I've grown with sighted children. I've worked with a lot of, you know, non disabled peers, mostly non disabled peers. So that has helped me, but one thing that people tell me is that when they talk to me, they feel at ease and they don't even realize that I have a disability. And if one is able to reach that level, that you given them that comfort, and you build that interdependent, you know, existence.
Yes.
That you help me, I help you. And there are so many other things that I can help people with as well. And I do help people with as well. It could be, say ordering something online. Or it could be you know, writing something for someone. Or it could be anything.
Yeah.
So when we have that level of equation, I think that helps me in going a long way. Plus, I've tested a lot of things. I've been a salesperson since childhood. I've sold bookmarks as a grade one, grade two child. I was in class two and I remember, and I wouldn't literally go door to door selling things, I would just keep things in my hand. I new strategy since I think childhood. I would just keep the bookmarks and calendars in my hand and you know, Auntie's or somebody would ask me better, what is this? I would just then at that point in time, I'll say, Do you read books? This is a bookmar, you can use this. And then there my sale was done.
Right!
And then yeah, later, I went on to sell cosmetics as well in college. You know, I remember people used to call me sabun tel wali as well, because I sold oriflame cosmetics. People would think how can a visually impaired person sell lipsticks? What sense would they have of colors? But I did that. And it's not about my choice. It's about people's choice. My work was just to show them the testers, the colors, the array of colors that was available. And it was for them for to choose, to decide. And my sale was done. I have done that.
So you didn't have any problems with currency notes and stuff at that time?
I wouldn't hesitate in asking. And then I used to organize them. Yeah, these days, currency notes is difficult. I use technology. I use a money recognize, the seeing AI app, and you know, other apps to organize my money. Back then, it was a little easier because the note sizes were different.
Yeah, I remember that.
Yeah. So one to confirm, I used to check. And second, I used to be very, very organized in keeping my money separately. And at times, you know, if I miss out on something, then for being independent, one is willing to pay some cost.
Yeah.
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You're also a family person, you've been married for a while, you have a son, tell me a little bit about your experience of being a family person. What's it like?
It's, it's fun. And it's challenging at the same time. Of course, it can, it can get stressful given these days that children are sitting at home now, not much to do because of the pandemic. But otherwise, so 2005 was like a turning point in my life in the sense that I got my stable job in that year. And I got my partner also, in that year. I've been married to Dinesh Kaushal since 2005. And Dinesh, you know Dinesh. He's also visually impaired and techie. And our son Namish, he's 13 and a half now. He will turn 14 in August. He does not have the disability.We've been raising him independently in the sense that it's just the three of us in the house specially since 2014 you know, ever since my in laws passed on. We play a lot together. And we are like any other couple. We have fights, a lot of times, not because of us, but because of Namish, our son, because sometimes he has one way, Dinesh has one way of you know, of dealing with a situation, I have another way of dealing with the situation. So like any other regular parent, and regular couple, that's what we go through. But one thing that we've constantly worked upon and ensured is that we raise him like any other child, and we don't let our disability get to him. So a lot of times people say and this is really, really important. People tell him that you are the one who has to take care of your parents and you have to grow up and you have to hold their hand and you have to do this and that. And we consciously tune him out of all of that, we consciously program him to understand that, you know, your parents are independent and your parents are doing. Let him live the life of a child. Let him live his childhood is what we ensure. we teach him, we take tuition support, because in his initial years, developing his writing skills was a challenge. So we don't hesitate in taking help wherever required. We manage his screen time as well, like any other parent, we apply parental controls.
Right
We, we all of us, we go out for holidays together, like anybody else. And we watch movies together. We watch TV series together, we eat out, dine out together, we do sports together. So that's us.
Excellent. Very interesting. So I just also have one more question, which is, you know, I have come to your office, I've come to your office a couple of years ago for attending an event where you were anchoring the event.
And the spotlight was on you.
Anyway. The impression I got was your workplace is an extremely crowded place. It was like me, you move left, you bump into somebody, you move right, you bumped into somebody, it was like being in Chandni Chowk. So, and not from the point of view of the noise and the unruliness. But from the point of view of crowd, yes. So how, how does that impact your presence in the organization? Does it affect you in any way?
Um, first of all, yes, we are a big organization and spread across many, many states as well. And our office is the largest office, because the main office, is the head office, it becomes very challenging. With 100% blindness, I, do have that hesitation. I'm not the, I don't have the best of mobilities. I wouldn't hesitate and shy away from saying that. Plus, I do have this inhibition in my head as well that, I don't want to bump into people. Maybe being a woman and a woman with blindness, I don't want to bump into people, I don't want to fall down, I don't want to get you know, mess my feet, my hands into something. So I do seek help. I get help very often. But it is, it definitely has been challenging. And I found my ways to be independent in the sense that some areas where I could explore on my own. I did that. I've been a trainer. So facilitating in a room has been easy. I ask my colleagues to orient me to the space, and then I get a hang of the space. And then, you know, it's just like being at home, that becomes easy. But maneuvering in cafeterias and common areas definitely has been a challenge. And I've been working from home since the pandemic hit us. I used to work from home earlier as well on you know, in some of the days when I had to do content development and things like that, but now work from home has become much more acceptable. So, you know, it's it's easy for me, and I'm much more comfortable, much more confident. And I am able to, I don't have that stress on my mind of constantly asking for help to move around with the common areas. So that's my honest perspective.
So a number of young visually impaired people, young parents who might have relatives or children who are visually impaired, could be listening to this podcast.So what are some of the key learnings as a visually impaired person you've had in life or from life that you might think is important for other people? You know, as principles of life, you know, you talked about the principles of leadership of Stephen Covey. Yes. So what are the principles of life, you as a visually impaired person would like to kind of promote or kind of share?
Definitely few of them that I try to live by.And of course, everybody falters. If I say something does not mean that I'm 100% expert in it, but one thing for sure, put yourself first not the disability, that's important. And even for parents and relatives and siblings treating a person with visual disability or any disability like a person first becomes very important and for the holistic development, letting us do whatever we want to do, and we can do, we may make mistakes, we may, and everybody makes mistakes. But you see, what happens is if accidentally, if I happen to cut my finger, the huːhɑː will be much higher than anybody else, any non disabled, you know, cutting their finger while working in the kitchen, because then our disability is seen as a highlight. So do not see the disability first, invest in making the person as independent as possible. Once that is achieved, I think a lot of problems get solved automatically. Second, technology is a big, big enabler, work on technology, get your hands on technology, and learn to use it this especially for you know, people with blindness, learn to use it, do not hesitate and think that, oh, I, I don't think I will be able to do this, do not have that sense of entitlement. That because I have the disability, I deserve to get this. That sense of enti entitlement creates a rift between the disabled and the non disabled, and that wide, or that rift has to be minimized and we need to be that one world. So that's my second mantra or second suggestion. Also, be happy, live life, love life and be yourself. Mix yourself with the regular world as much as you can not not single out yourself as a disabled person. Those are the key points George I thought I would share.
Thank you very much ,Madhu for speaking to me and being on the show. It has been a pleasure. and wish you the very best.
Thank you so much.
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