nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions, and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories all to create an impact uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabbit fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Becky, did I not tell you you're gonna have FOMO when we first met
Becky, I am so obsessed with our guest, I just want to adopt him and invite him to Thanksgiving dinner.
Like, oh my gosh, y'all, we're in for such a rich conversation. Like, it is such an honor to have Dr Kevin Sansbury with us. He is this behavioral scientist, he's an executive coach, he's a podcast host, casual he's a speaker. But listen, y'all, he is almost like our therapist in the first like 10 minutes, just getting to hang out before this conversation. Because there's a lot of conversations we've wanted to have about this sector, but we've wanted to do it in a way that sees people, that recognizes the different journeys that we're on, the different internal journeys that we're on, and how that all informs how we show up in our workplaces. And so to find somebody like Kevin that can come in and really walk us through something that such a difficult topic that we're trying to wrestle through, but do it with such humanity like y'all I am so buckled in for this. We were talking about retention. We're talking about navigating toxic workplaces, things that you know don't necessarily get the light of day, even though we're really trying to drive this conversation this year, specifically around retention. It's an inside job. We really believe it starts from within and how we show up. But let me tell you a little bit about Kevin, because this conversation is going to be too good. Um, so Okay, his work is really driven by the need for evidence based, inclusive and equitable approaches to urgently and proactively transform and coach leaders, eradicating toxic behaviors, threatening profitability, innovation and the overall well being. He is just this, an impactful coach. He has served in all sorts of different settings, such as professional sports. I can't even hang with you, my friend, sales and other big, complex organizations, and he's currently working on a lot of ventures to further connect the research and best practices to help organizations detoxify and help employees thrive. This is so much core to what we want to do that it was Kevin was one of our first phone of friends when we were putting together impact up. That's happening july 11. We're talking about power. We want to really take the veil off the power dynamics that are holding our sector back, that are holding a lot of people in our communities back, and really having some of these frank conversations. Kevin is coming with us to impact up on july 11. He is also a podcast host. I gotta plug your podcast before we say hello, my friend. The toxic leadership podcast is always on the top of the charts too, but he has these conversations where he goes there, but he also gives such actionable advice. Kevin, huge honor to have you with us, my friend. Welcome to the we are for good podcast. Hello,
hello. I'm so excited to have this conversation. Hey, and yeah, no, I'm excited like I was telling you before. I had a late flight and woke up at eight o'clock for a meeting. So I'm amped up even with like, four hours of sleep, because this is how I roll, because I am for good so happy to be here.
Oh my gosh, can we just play that clip forever in our lives? Well, Kevin, I mean, there's a lot of meaty topics we want to hop into with you, but we'd love to just get the context of your story. Would you take us back? I mean, tell us a little bit about your formative experiences growing up and what got
you into this work. Yeah, so I'll start. I mean, this is weird, but I'm going to start when I was born, because I don't remember it, but I'll just tell you my story. I was born early, premature, and I was born at 24 weeks of, I think, the gestation period, yeah. And so with that being being said, I was like, the size of, like, I fit in the palm of your hand. They, you know, the the notion that runs around my family was, like, you were big as, like, a can of Coke. Like, that's how, like, long you were as a kid. And so, you know, was in the NICU and all that kind of stuff, and my skin was transparent, all that kind of stuff. They had to manually breathe for me with this thing. But anyway, I say that to say I was meant to be here, because that is a survivor. Survivor rates, especially in the 80s and even now, are super low. But I was meant to be here, oldest of six, from Kansas City, Missouri, originally, kind of growing up, I was surrounded by a lot of great people in my family, a lot of great women in my family who, you know, instilled in me the importance of like relationships and the importance of family in itself. I wasn't receptive to it. Early on, I didn't get it, you know, I just I was like growing myself and learning the world myself. But as I look back now with more wisdom, I realized that, like a lot of the things that I grew up in were centered on how to build relationships, how to strengthen bonds. Uh. Um, even during times where, like, the external world is not necessarily positive, so meaning, like, even during, like, I grew up in, like, lower lower income, right? So even during times where, you know, money's not current, we don't know what's going on and stuff like that, having to move a lot, I always felt the love, always felt the family, always felt the bond. And so yeah, a lot of things I've learned as an adult, adult with kids of my own now that I'm like, Wow, I'm glad I had that or, wow, we weathered that storm, and I didn't even know it was a storm, like, jeez, you know, my you know. And so my mom had me when she was 16, you know. So I just, there was a lot of like, things I didn't know were hard, but I look back on her, like, Oh, that was hard, because I had my kids after 16, way after 16, and I'm sitting there not knowing what I'm doing, you know? So, so I just I grew up in a place of, I grew up in a standpoint of relationships, love and trust and stuff like that. And so that informs now how I approach work. My main goal as as we talk about, you know workplaces is, I want to ensure that, you know, humanity is centered in how we operate. And one of the things that I'm not good at is I'm blunt. I'm not a sugar coater. I like, I'm gonna tell you that's one thing I didn't learn. I didn't the same shooter. I'm a straight shooter. I didn't learn. I'm not a sugar coat so, like, I come into systems, and I will say some stuff to whomever, and I'm gonna agitate, and I'm going to irritate, if you take it that way, you know? And so, but my main goal is I am not a gaslighter, and I do not put my head in the sand. And so I am here for the experience. I'm gonna call things out. I'm open. My antennas are up, you know, I'm hoping to learn new things myself, but when I come into systems, my main goal is to drive change in a way that everyone can see the future and see that vision that we want. And so whether we're talking about attention, whether we're talking about, you know, especially nonprofits and power, you know, that needs to be called out, and I'm glad we're talking about that at the event. Um, but there are a lot of things, a lot of those elephants in the room, where I'm like, well, y'all, we don't need to be talking about elephants in the room. We need to just call it out. That's reality. So like, let's call it out, because it's not elephants for some people. Okay,
I'm fist pumping in the background. I want everyone to just fist pump with me, because I think what you're saying is like, really a clarion call to like, we need it's time to wake up and it's time to move forward. And I feel like there is such a beautiful metaphor in your life of survival and being a warrior and really being a champion for this work. And I'm so glad to just know your background and your lived experience, and I'm in honestly, we worked in a hospital, you know, foundation, for 10 years, and, you know, and Jon had four babies in the NICU. You know, I was the NICU major gift officer, and we know what it means to have a baby at 24 weeks. And it is so great to see you here in front of us, smiling, thriving, happy and pouring back into the work. But I really thank you for centering this conversation in the spirit of just saying, saying it as it is. And to me, we are standing in a time in our sector where we need your strength, we need your honesty. We need your courage, friends and so I want to get into this toxic workplace cultures concept. And I have to tell you, Kevin, this is a really personal topic for us. We put out a mental health survey in our community last October, and the number two most prevalent thing that is keeping our sector in sickness through what we saw in our survey was toxic work environment. So many of our respondents shared these experiences of being in these environments where they were governed by poor management, lack of support, you know, and it had a significant impact on their well being. It led them to leave their jobs, and they were people are seeking out more supportive work environments. And you talked about, humanity is centered. Needs to be centered in how we operate. And so I want to dive into this, because our number two trend of 2024 this year was retention is an inside game, and that really starts with having this frank conversation. So let's, let's get into it. How did toxic workplace cultures manifest like in nonprofit orgs? And talk to us about those consequences, not only for staff morale, but also productivity.
Yes. So first off, let me. Let me set the stage. Before I dive in, I'm gonna set the stage and preface with a few caveats here. Okay, definition. So when we talk about toxic workplaces, toxic leadership, all those kinds of things, I'm not necessarily pointing or labeling a person. We're labeling behaviors. And do know that these behaviors that I'm gonna be talking about occur on a set? Spectrum. And so it's not necessarily, you can just say this person's all toxic. There may be some behaviors that elicit, you know, destructive things that elicit burnout, that elicits, you know, there might be some things there. But so it's not labeling people as such, because everybody has the propensity to change. Systems have the propensity to change. And so I want to label that. My second label is I also want to on to know and note that something like micromanagement to one employee may look different to another employee, maybe feel different to another employee. So let's I'm not so when I when I say this, it might sound like generalizations. But do know that? I know it's not generalizable across, uh, from between people. Um. Third thing I'm going to say is, when we consider some of the concepts that I will talk about today, do note that I'm going to be laddering back up to, like, the grander why, and my grander Why is societal culture and so I'm going to be laddering up. So be prepared to kind of think big and small, right? So you know all that. So, okay, so first off, what? Why do we have, you know you're in your survey. You know you have toxic workplace. Comes up as a lot. You know it's prevalent. It sounds like why? Well, one of the things that harmed nonprofits, in my experience, is a lot of nonprofits have tried to to emulate a corporate work environment, and for the good and the bad, out of all industries who I would have thought would have centered the human experience would have did work differently. It would have been the nonprofit industry. I'm just being honest, like, if I would have, if I would have thought, like, what industry would be the one that's like, oh, let's, let's do four day work weeks first. Oh, let's do, I would have thought nonprofits would have did that in the 90s,
yeah, but, but
what happened was, a lot of nonprofits try to emulate the corporations and the individuals who give them money. You know, they fall into the same types of culture. And so what you get are nonprofits who try to play this thing where they they're different, and they bait and switch your employees. They basically, essentially say or espouse, you know, we want people who who have a passion for the work. We want people who are invested in our outcomes, in our in centering the needs of our communities that we serve and right, but yet you have them, and that's their differentiator. That's the differentiator between a Corporation, but yet you treat them just like the corporation treats them, and you're giving the same types of burnout. People aren't being heard and people aren't people aren't feeling valued. Burnout is the prevalent right, and you pay them less than corporate in my if I'm looking at this objectively, why don't I just go get a corporate job, then I'm gonna get paid more. Like, I'm gonna get paid more for the same types of stress that that heart on my sleeve, stuff, I'm sorry. I can just go volunteer, you know, like, I'm like, I don't, I don't need the nonprofit to fill that cup, right? And so I can find my fulfillment in corporate, get more, get more pay for the for the it's like hazard pay. Now I can get more pay, and I can go volunteer and feel my cup. And so my ask and wondering is the nonprofit value proposition of, you know, serving, you know, the cause, whatever the cause is, I think we're not hitting that mark because of all of the bureaucracy, the lack of formalized listening. You know, we don't have systems that actually listen. We do the thing of Dei. We do dei outside our company, but inside the company, we don't do any of that, you know. So it's like, on stage, we'll say the thing, but we didn't even clean up our side of the street. And it's amazing. That's like, such an amazing dichotomy. You you're on stage, and you say all this great stuff and all the great work you're doing, but yet, when you go back to your side of the street, you go back to your house, you didn't even clean your own house. And that's fascinating that we can sit with that. That's fascinating that that can be like, Oh, okay, that's normal. That's a norm, but that's that doesn't make it right. And so, yeah, that's the kind of stuff I like to call out. My
head goes here that I think this connects to so many conversations we've had. This is why values are so important, and because we are, if we're not actually modeling those, like, what does it matter? Like, I mean, if we're really subscribed to these bigger questions that we're solving for these issues, and we're not attacking the root and even just how we show up as people and how we connect, and how we lead, and how we all the things that happen inside a workplace. So I'm just curious, like, I mean, what's your what's your thoughts on that? I mean, as we think about like, some of the underlying factors, but I mean, get in there on values. Let's
dig it values. Values have been butchered for 20 years. Here's how every company has values. Most companies have values. Let me say it like that. Most companies have values, corporate values. And all that kind of stuff, but they're on the website, on the wall, and we don't have any mechanism to measure up to the values. How do I know you're innovative? How do I know you're you know, whatever your values are, respectful, you know. How do I how do we know that? How do we know that? And so we don't, we don't, first off, we don't like go back and say, Hey, as a leader, am I doing this value and how like put that in your performance appraisal, live up to your values. A, B, you create values, and we have value statements, but you failed as an organization system to create what's called behavioral specificity. Behavioral specificity is you'll have something like a value of innovation, and you'll probably have some bullet points under that, under the statement, pretty statement. What does that mean? What does that look like here? Then, by department, I'm a department leader. Now in my department, I'm also going to have behavioral specificity in philanthropy. Here's what innovation looks like for us, because humans operate under behavioral specificity. Otherwise you're going to have everybody operating under their own definition of the value. And then what happens is you have somebody say something like, oh, well, respect is you have to, you know, do everything. I say that's respect as the leader, and I'm the toxic leader, and I yell at work and I'm screaming at people and but you have to respect me. That's that's how I look at respect. But until we come to frame of behavioral specificity, yeah, that's what's going to happen. And then you say, you're an inclusive workplace. I'm sure you have people who come from different backgrounds. I'm sure you have people who come from different, um, different speak different languages and stuff like that as their first language. But yet, without behavioral specificity, we have defaulted to the American centric way of that thing, whatever it might be. And that's not cool either. And so when I talk about we're saying these things like inclusion, we're saying we have these values and stuff like that, and we did nothing to actually instill them into the culture, into our ways of working. You really just engage in something I call cultural theater. And that is the the act of showing you that we you know, we're doing organizational culture, cultural theater, that is cultural theater. And so I don't. I'm not. I'm not a fan of cultural theater. I talked about it in my TED Talk. But no, I don't. I don't engage in that. I engage in the real. And so until you have these things in place where you can, like, have accountability to upholding these values, you they're just they're just words, until you can have behavioral specificity where we can ensure that we're all marching under the same understanding of these values. It's just words you have to and finally, until we also have leadership accountability to upholding those values, because leaders are under the spotlight and they model and they foster and uphold the entire culture, they're just words. So you gotta, you have to be, you have to have these all formalized if we're truly saying these values are actually in place.
I'm so glad we're calling this out, because we're gonna have to embark on these systems of change, and it's gonna start with us. And so I want to switch just a little bit to power dynamics, because it's real, and I think there are a lot of people we hear in our community, Kevin, who are like, I want to be this change, but I am fighting against the man or the machine up above. And I want you to talk about how power dynamics within nonprofits really sort of exacerbate, or even mitigate toxic behavior among leaders. Can you dive into that?
I can so many, many people when we when we talk about the concept of power in the first place, power in itself, is an attractive thing, especially in a power based society that it sits in. Right? What happens is, you'll, you'll, might, you might have a leader who is, you know, talking and speaking out as necessary, but then they get into a position of power, and then they stop talking. And you don't see, you know, you you imagine it's weird. They, they, they have the power, but they seem less powerful now, you know, because they're not, they're not actually using it. They're not saying anything. What they're doing is upholding the current system and saying, Oh no, we can't do it that way. And here's why. And unfortunately, a lot of the behaviors that get upheld are the toxic ones. And so what we saw in the covid return to work, kind of stuff I've seen so many nonprofits do some pretty crappy things as it relates to how they did the the covid transition, return the work. And I'm like, Well, don't lie and say, you know, our value is, you know, collaboration, and we, 100% need to collaborate in the we collaborate better in the office, because y'all don't you stat, you have data that proves that you don't, you know, but, but if you really need to be in the office for a reason, why wouldn't you just tell the truth? Truth. Why? Why do you really want to be in the office like tell the truth? Right? And so a lot of times, what the spotlight of being a leader does is you're under spotlight, and so you don't want to show your flaws, you don't want to show your ego, you don't want any you don't want to show all the stuff, all the stuff that makes you human. What makes you human is not your perfection. That makes you robot, robotic. What makes you human is the mistakes you make and what you learn from that. What makes you human is the ego you have. What makes you human is the envy you have. What makes it human is the anxiety you have. That's human, that's all human stuff, that's all human stuff. And so with that being said, You hide all of that because you want to be this strong leader. And I'm just like, I get it in certain situations, I get it. But if you are really nervous about remote work because you don't know if y'all can be productive, say that have that conversation up front. If you are not Google remote work because you are not good remote work. Say that have that conversation. Like, why are we afraid to have that conversation? Don't say like, so instead of doing the truth, they say stuff like, Oh no, we work better in person. And then you get people in person who literally are like, well, where's everybody at? They're they're in meetings. I could have had this meeting online, like, everybody's in meetings, you know? And so I, I'm, I'm not a fan of the um, hiding your flaws, approach to leadership. I'm also not a fan, because what that does is that breeds the toxicity, because now it's jarring for people. You're saying one thing, and people are experiencing an entirely different thing, and you've created a culture where they can't tell you, because you're gonna get defensive. You're gonna get defensive, yada yada yada. And so my my thing about diminishing that, that leadership backlash is leaders, there needs to be. I think every person that it's in leadership needs to have a coach or a therapist to be honest or both. But I think that's important. And I also think a lot of leaders need to learn more about themselves and diminishing their ego, because they're allowing their ego to take the wheel. Because sometimes leaders are afraid to be wrong. Sometimes leaders are afraid to be vulnerable. And that's literally what the definition you know when we think about vulnerability, vulnerability does not mean you're crying. Vulnerability actually means you're a little exposed, and that's hard. I understand that's hard, but I think if people got to know you and what you are dealing with, they are going to follow you, because they follow you, not your position. And so I think I but that's a it's a lost art. It's okay. Maybe we, maybe we never had that art. Yes, it is, but I'm like, but that's how you be human to connect. That's how you be
human. Kevin, this one's going down in the archives, is like, such a incredible combo. But I think this connects to what you said in the beginning, like, shouldn't we be leading the way in that we exist to serve people, to wrap these wraparound services to people, and it's just not the case. So I gotta connect this to this. Okay, so we have a couple of community members of we are for good, Evan and Michelle. I gotta shout you out for doing this beautiful retention survey. They found 75% of folks serving in nonprofits are planning on leaving their job within the next two years, 18 months, something like that. Shocking, right? We feel like there is just this massive, shocking,
not shocking, yeah, painful, yes, yeah, yeah.
So let's connect this to, like, employee retention. I mean, like we see it now we have some informal data collection. That's like confirming that in our community. Like, sure. How can we start to shift this? I'm
gonna start at the top. So I'm gonna start at the top, the nonprofit infrastructure, the nonprofit brand, whatever the ethos of nonprofit, is kind of weird. I've had to have conversations with nonprofits who are saying we are not social justice organizations. We're nonprofits. And I'm like, Okay, what is that? I mean, I'm like, what does that mean? Because you are I'm like, what does that mean? So for me, let's let me, let me define how I'm looking at it. So the way I look at like a social justice in a standpoint, I look at human rights, you know, so providing everyone their basic human rights. So if your nonprofit does that, I would say you're a social justice organization. Social justice organization. Access, absolutely right. Okay, that's one. Number two, access. We are providing access to different groups, to essentials, without restrictions, yep, okay, if your nonprofit provides access to something resources, I'm thinking you're a social justice organization. Three, participation. We, we increase uh participation, ensure voices are heard from different communities. Well, if you do that, I think you're a social justice organization. And lastly, equity, you know, we, we take into account, you know, the different aspects of a system that perpetuates discrimination in different ways based on identity. If you do something like that. I think you're a social justice organization. So no matter how many millions and billions of dollars that we're gonna see on your 90s and stuff like that, you're a social justice organization. But what happened is you lost your soul, your organization lost its soul, and you became a. The non taxed corporate wing without and you're right. So, and I'm just saying, I'm just saying, and so I think in order for us to shift the the system, we got to look back at the soul, the ethos of this thing in the first place, and we have to look at, how do we walk backwards, and what does that look like? Because again, the industry that that I would have thought would have been the most innovative in workplace conditions, would have been the nonprofit, because they have the runway to do so. You already have the audacious mission that's connected to making the world a better place. Why wouldn't you have the audacious mission to make sure your workplace is the best place to it's parallel. It's parallel. And to be honest, if you were doing the fixing it, cleaning up your house first, I think your outcome would be that much better too, because can you imagine the massive knowledge transfer that occurs when people leave in two years like, That's ridiculous. And I know nonprofit, a lot of nonprofits don't have good knowledge management systems. So because I'm I'm seeing too many Excel spreadsheet processes, I'm gonna be honest. So, like, so with that being said, Your people are your your competitive advantage in a nonprofit, and yet we're talking about retention in 2024 It's wild. That's a problem. That's a problem. We could have been talking about leveraging AI to make ours work better. We could have been talking about how to be more inclusive globally. We could have been talking about, how are we looking at diversifying our funding sources? Because we want to make sure we're doing that for the long run. That's what we could have been talking about, we could have been talking about, uh, you know, what are our metrics of, what success have we made globally on these different, you know, we could have been, we could have been talking about, we could have been celebrating and praising, but we're not necessarily there yet, because our soul is missing, and I think we go back and there needs to be some retooling and re tweaking, I don't Want to say dismantling, because people get scared when I say that, so let me say retooling. Re tweaking. But I really think we need to look back at, like, the values of the nonprofit in itself, because if they're just the non tax corporate wing, why does it really need to exist? I'm sorry.
I have so much to say about this, and I'm going to talk about how I'm feeling and not what, because I don't know who's listening right now, but when you talk Kevin, I'm having all of this trauma come up for me, of how I just as one human being, and I know there's Got to be 1000s of people out there listening who feel this, who have felt the damage of these toxic work environments, of toxic leadership. I mean, I have spoken so openly about my nervous breakdown at the hands of nonprofit work, and it came because of some toxic leadership, and because I didn't have cover, and I was just absolutely steamrolled over by by a bureaucracy and a culture that was cultural theater. It was all theater. And so one, I want to validate every single human who's listening to this and saying, Yes, I have been hurt. I have been damaged. I mean, I've got the tears coming up in my eyes right now that we have been hurt by this culture. And what I want to say to you is we can change it, because, my gosh, not only are these missions worth it, but you as a human being are freaking worthy of working in this work and being healthy in it. So we are an activating community. And I want to get to the freaking hope. I want to get to what we can do. And I want to I want to ask you to break this down in two ways. For me, I want you to talk about how individuals and teams can not only build resilience to navigate these cultures, but overcome these toxic workplace environments. And I would absolutely love it if you could break it down for us as someone who is a leader and someone who is not, because we're talking about power in one and another where someone doesn't feel power. So talk to us about how we can get activated around this absolutely.
Yeah, there are, there are, it's, it sounds daunting, but nothing is hopeless, because we're sapiens, and we are here for reason too, you know, so, like the spirit of a human, you know, we got it so. And what I will say is we've survived as a species through collectivism. That is a fact. We did not survive as a species through individualism, but we've created an entirely individualistic culture, and we've created entirely individualistic organizations. And we're wondering, why, why do we feel so drained at work? Why doesn't work? Feel like it's like doing something positive? To me, we're. Not individualists. We're collective. We work together. We're humans, right? So, so with that being said, that's what's that's what it's going to take first. It's going to take connection first, on both parties leadership and non kind of leadership roles, what I will say is the path is different based off of your power in the system. I think for individuals in power, in formalized power, it is important for individuals in power to do more listening. It is important for for individuals in power to literally set up time for listening. What I mean by that is like, have a sequence of listening in your company. Don't just say you have an open door policy. You know, people are overworked and they're not going to come through the door. You know, people are not going to do it. When you say it, don't do that. Go to people. Create that, you know, don't like, like, like, you have the you have the power. So create the systems, but you take the lead in seeking out feedback as a leader. I think that is really important, and that flips the script on what I currently see. I see too many open door policies, open culture, well, you can tell me anything. No, they can't. They don't, I mean, they don't feel like psychological safety here, yeah, yeah. So I think leaders need to take the lead in that. I think another thing that is important for leaders to think about is, how often are leaders pausing and reflecting on the impact of their decisions. I think leadership teams need to create a formalized structure of reflection, because what leadership teams have done to their cultures, in a lot of cases, is they've trickled down something called hurry sickness. And what that is is essentially, everybody's rushed, everybody's hurried, everybody's trying to be perfect in front of you, and they're looking at the leadership team like, wow. Okay, well, you know what's the next ball shoot, it's gonna drop and all that. So I think leaders need to up in that hurry sickness, by leaders modeling, pausing and reflection and looking back. And there are processes that do that, called after action reviews and before action reviews, so you can know your planning. There are equity impact analysis processes you can do before you make a decision, you know. So there are, there are processes all over the place that you can try out. But I think make that a part of your structure, because once you make stuff a part of your structure, and you start practicing it, that's when stuff becomes normalized. Because if we're talking about shifting a system, you need a system to change a system. You can't just have Band Aid fixes to change a system. So when you need a new system, and so then I'm saying, then the new systems that need to be created need to be formalized, listening, formalized reflection, formalized pausing. That needs to be systematized, just like accounting, you know, and so you need a system to change a system. Now let's say I'm an individual, and I don't I'm at a leadership role. What can I do? I will say, it's difficult because you let's say, I'm gonna use this quote. Just because you, you are on your healing journey, doesn't mean everybody else around you is on your healing journey, right? And so what that's gonna mean is, in order for you as an individual, in a system that's toxic, per se, you may be trying to evoke change right now. You know, we want to be more equitable. We want to do these difference we want to pause. But yet you're getting pushed back with all these other norms. So what I will say is it will be important for individuals who may not have the formalized power to seek out individuals who do first of all, because that, you know, again, we go further together. And so I would look for individuals who have formalized power in the system. I'm also going to look for individuals who are who don't because I want to build my my tipping point. I want to build that like that critical mass. And some of the research doesn't even say you need a majority to have a critical mass. It looks about 26 to 40% of people. So I'm going to start building that coalition of like what we want to see, and I need to find what is the avenues that, what are the avenues that we have to communicate upwardly? And I'm going to utilize those avenues, because here's what I've seen in systems I've worked with systems, who the employees kind of did, the did a letter, or wrote some, you know, wrote a letter or something like that, and they were writing all their concerns and their complaints and stuff like that, and nothing really changed. It was all temporary. Yep, it was all Band Aid fix. They like, they a P, they appeased your letter. And I'm not saying, you know, that's a, that's a method. I'm not saying that, but I don't make that your only method look for like, be be creative, and you suggest process changes and and suggest them in your department. Because what I've seen scale, I've seen like the I'm gonna use an example. I've seen like the philanthropy, philanthropy department start testing out a reflection period. They do this with. Called a, OODA Loop, O, O, D, A, it's a, it's an acronym, but they do, they do like a continuous improvement process in their work. Well, another department was like, Hey, y'all, y'all do that. That's pretty cool. Can we join you in your next meet? So then it scale to another department, then it's scaled to another department. Then you have those, you have three VPS doing it. So now three VPS are bringing it to the rest of the VPS. So like, you can also start doing things in your department to make your department good. So here's what I call that. That is called a there's a difference between culture and climate. Organizational culture are the norms that feed the organizational climate. The organizational climate is what you feel, what you experience, what you see. That is climate culture are the norms that got that climate in the first place. So I'm going to be clear on my definitions here, right? What you can do in your department is create an organizational climate cocoon or bubble. And what that means is your culture might suck around you, but I'm going to create a localized climate bubble in my department, where my employees aren't looking to quit in two years, because here's what I've done in my climate bubble, to protect them, to cover them as much as I can and so that. So I think the strategy needs to start localized, because that's how you're gonna like. Culture takes years to change. I'm going to be honest, culture takes a long time to change, but we can make shifts in climate more rapidly, and so the individuals who are in departments need to look at what is our organizational climate bubble that we're going to create, while we look at changing the culture. Because the only way you're going to survive in culture change is if you have the climate bubble.
Kevin, Dr. Kevin Reginald Sansbury, I am shook by you. I am so shook in the greatest possible way. Jon emote, I can't, I just can't
I think you take something that it's easy for us, especially on a podcast, right? We can just have conversations forever. But, you know, the heart of even creating impact up is like, how do we move into activation, you know, like, how do you ever append these systems? How do you actually recreate, re engineer, whatever we're talking about? And you just broke that down in a way that all of this have agency in that place, like, we can all be that change. Even if you're absorbed in the biggest, most bureaucratic, giant organization, you can be that light, you know. And I just think that there's so much hope, there's so much opportunity. And I think of Lindsay Fuller of the teaching well, and we'll link up her episode, because y'all would be kindred spirits, just like, yeah, they would what a celebrity death bash moment of like, yes, you're so good. But Lindsay was like, you know, we need people also to, like, tin the soil, like those, not just flight, but like, let's, could we tin the soil at this place? Because there's something there that is worth preserving and saving and fighting for. And I just connect that of think a lot of people do have that passion, like Lucky, lucky. Our industry that that we have that piece, but we've got to fix the other pieces to protect our people and to and to thrive. You know, yeah,
and some of the, some of the, here's the, the biggest thing, I want to just make sure people understand your organizational culture is going to be there, whether you tend to it or not, the NOR. So like, the default norms of your organizational culture are typically, typically going to be the norms of the society in which that culture stands or sits. And so if you don't do anything about your organizational culture, what you're going to get is competition. What you're going to get are people with power power plays. What you're going to get are perfectionism. What you're going to get are some people being defensive. What you're going to get is micromanage. I mean, you're going to get the default, you're going to get the default, and so if you don't do something about it, you're going to relegate back to what the default is, because that's where people came from, and that's people are used to. That's That's people grew up in, right? And speaking of grow up in you're going to get people's childhood experiences too. I tell people all the time, I can go look at a playground and look at a workplace and see some of the same behaviors, you know, they might look a little different, but I can see the same behaviors, you know. I can see the bullies. I can see the loners, you know. I can see the people that are having fun, you know. I can see people who's walking in line, you know, late when the class already went to the cafeteria. You still outside. What you doing here? You know, you're late, you know. So I could, I could see the similar, some of the similar behaviors. And so if we don't do anything actively about it, we're going to relegate back to the default. And so there are plenty of organizations who have dei strategies, organizational strategies to get the work done better. Where's our culture strategy? Like, literally, where's our cultural culture strategy? Because that's at the foundation of every outcome that we have, is who we are as an organization. And it to go back to that Lindsay's tin, the soil, we need to continually look at that soil. It's the foundation. Foundation. It's the foundation, it's the roots. But yet, we kind of do a set it and forget it, and that's not the way you want to treat culture.
I'm telling you, I've been on the verge of tears this entire time, like happy tears, like processing tears. I just, I really do feel so seen. I feel so much hope in this moment. And I just, I thank you for coming in and just saying it. I know I'm gonna go back and listen to this podcast several times, because I need to just ruminate and and think about what what you're saying. But please come to our july 11 event, because Kevin is gonna get his own stage. Jon and I are gonna get the heck out of the way and just let Kevin do his thing, and we're going to go deeper into this. And Kevin, we just put the foundation of everything that we talk about around story. And I want to know, is there a story of kindness, of generosity, of philanthropy, of something in your life where you felt profoundly changed that you might share with our audience today,
sure, my story is around my own transformation as a leader, as a person, you know, that was in a traditional power role, role in 20, 2014 I was in this leadership development program, and I was had The benefit of going through some 360 you know, 360 kind of assessments with my staff and stuff like that, and you get to read what people think about you as a leader. That was my first time experiencing that, and it was profound, because I learned a lot of great things about me that I knew. I learned great things about me that I didn't know, but I also learned about not so great things about me of how I impacted people. And that was a point where I had to kind of have that philosophical reality question that I talked to y'all about before, of what is reality, who I think I am, or how I impact people, wow, and I will come to this realization now with wisdom that's 10 years ago. Um, it's both. But where do I want to put my eggs? I put my eggs in, how I impact people, how I show up. And so that experience changed me, because I could have read that and said, No, what do they know? I'm the leader, you know, like I need to be this way to do my job. No, no, I flipped the script on how I operate, because I basically made my result the relationships. I made my result the people. And it's kind of taken it back to like impact V intent. I really am focused on the impact. Now, I value my intent. I value and honor my intent, but I know my intent, and who we all think we are is based off of who you want to be, is based off of it's propped up by your biases. It's propped up by your mental models. It's propped up by your childhood I know that for a fact on everybody on this planet. And so with that being said, who you're trying to be is not necessarily the way. I really think we need to be looking at it from a different angle. And that is, how are we impacting people? And going from that angle, that's, for me, it's more human centric, and I think that that'll get you a lot further, if we center who we impact, Kevin. Are
you tired of us like reacting after each
Kevin at my Thanksgiving table? I want him at Christmas. I want him to like come have an Italian meal. I want more Kevin in my life. I know there are a lot of people nodding too.
Can I leave one last thought for folks to think about as we depart? Please. We
can call it a one good thing.
My I what I'm thinking about is, if we got on the table, the difference between nice and kind. Use the word kindness. And a lot of cultures are nice. They're not a lot of I don't I don't know a lot of kind cultures. I know a lot of nice cultures. The nice cultures are the ones that sound great in the job interview. They're nice. They're super nice. Everybody's nice and friendly to you when they that first week you get the red carpet rolled out. But then under stress, they're no longer Nice. Under stress, they're no longer nice. And if I break down and look at the etymology of the word nice, you know, it goes back to ignorant in Latin, Old French. It's
stupid, what? Yeah,
you know, not know in Latin too. But if I go back to kind, it goes back to Kin, you know, Kin, you know, like, like, connection, you know. And so to that standpoint, I'm tired of nice people. I'm honest. I'm tired of nice people. I don't want you to be nice to me, because I want you to be kind to me. My staff, when they did that three six, and they told me the goods and the bads and it wasn't even that bad, but they told me things I needed to work on that was so kind, that was kind. And I don't want to work in nice cultures. I don't want to be around nice people. I want to be around kind. People, because kind people become kin. And I'm not saying work is family. I'm saying we become connected. We become together. You know what I mean? Like we go further together. So be kind, build kind. Cultures lead kindly. Can
I? Can I talk about a kind friend in our world? Because Isla Malik knows you well and reaches out to us and is like, Y'all gotta talk, you know, and I think I knew there's a lot of things we needed to talk about, but the moment in time that you're coming into our world to inform these conversations and to take it to a different space is Kismet on every level. So I just really appreciate love, the person that you are, the way that you've shown up and you you know are uplifting humanity through your work. So I know people listening are going to be like, how can I get more Kevin in my life? Well, first download his podcast and all of this, he
can be in your ears every day, or this, I'm going over there. Please,
please. What are the other ways people can connect with you, Kevin and just work with you to all those yeses,
no, thank you. So I just, I have a new website, kevra consulting.com, I'll send you all the link so we can put in the show notes. New Website. It illustrates the culture and climate work. I mean, I actually measure so, so I have a, I have a methodology in which I actually measure your culture. I don't employee engagement is a outcome variable y'all. So if y'all are measuring employee engagement, you are too upstream. You are too downstream. You need to go upstream, measure why your employee engagements that way in the first place. So I measure, not only measure employee engagement, I measure your culture. We do that every five years. I measure your climate. We do that annually. And we can look at your outcomes like trust and engagement and all that kind of and burnout. That's outcome. But we all the, all the psychometrics that exist. A lot of them, they measure outcome variables. Why don't we go upstream and measure the reasons why the outcome variables are there in the first place? So my website, I can outline that I also do a lot of work in one on one with leaders. And so I'm Hogan certified. And so Hogan is the assessment that actually coined the dark sides of personality. And my CEO narcissism research is based in Hogan's research. And so I'm able to work with leaders and actually give you a complete profile of how you show up, both your light side and your bright side, or your bright side and your dark sides, um, and provide tips on how you know, I know a lot of well meaning people who want to be kind, and if you want to, like, systematize that for yourself, I'm all for that. And then, um, yeah, lots of things on there. And then, most importantly, um, all your listeners can reach out to me on my website, on my Contact Us page, I have a button you literally can click, and you can send me a voicemail anywhere in the world you are, and it will email me, and I will reply back to you and give you a voicemail back. And we can, like talk asynchronously. Now I'm your coach in your pocket, and so feel free to visit me for that service too@kevraconsulting.com,
I mean, I want to click it and yes, can, can I bring us back to the beginning, you have centered humanity in this conversation. You have centered humanity in every single response. This has been a hard conversation, and I have to say, I think it's been the best conversation. Dr, Kevin, Reginald Stansberry, I have to get your middle name at some point, so I'll quit calling you. Reginald. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts for his is an Isla Malik quote for the way you move in this world, the way you move through it, and thank you for coming into this community and just awakening our hearts and our minds to go and do more good. You're a treasure, truly.
