My name is Catherine car and this is season three of relatively, the podcast all about potentially the longest relationships of your life.
We want to say something again or different.. it's ok... It's going to be edited,
I'm so unused or anything like this.
I'll be bringing siblings together to talk about the connections they have as adults, as well as what it was like growing up together. This week, we're talking to the amazing sisters gene and Pat out trim.
I think JEAN has been very generous because I was wondering, rather bossy,
I could go on to ask her if I was worried about something if I didn't know how to cope, she would save me and get me out of trouble. Whatever. Jane is the most important person in my life now and vice versa.
And in a new twist, I'll be delving a little further back with the help of our sponsors find my past the family history experts.
Well, that does sound interesting, doesn't it? Jean? I don't think I did know that exactly. But we always, you know, thought they were a rather fascinating family to have.
Brothers and sisters are never straightforward. Gene and Pat Owtram are believed to be the only living sisters to have signed the Official Secrets Act. They both worked as codebreakers during World War Two and neither knew about the other's role until piece of broken out. Pat is now 98 years old, nearly 99 and Jean her little sister is 96. Born in Lancashire, they spent most of their childhood at Newland Hall the family home, before heading off to school just before war broke out. I went to Pat's home, which is in West London now for tea biscuits and a wonderful conversation about helping to crack Enigma about having fun in war times about flouting convention, and about being each other's most important person. This episode of relatively is especially precious recording as it does a little hesitantly at times. But with so much affection, a sisterly relationship, which is lasted almost 100 years. Jean began by talking about her role as little sister.
Oh, yes, I treated her with great respect, I hope. Of course, occasionally, I might try and make my own way. But usually I found was much better to get her to help me with any problems I had
what was Jean like as a little sister.
Jean was much more adventurous much braver than I was. She used to go off for walks by herself around the countryside. I think I was a bit boss here. Bouncer was quite young, because she was two years younger, I suppose. elder sisters all like that. But she was always the one I could talk to, and used to have sort of imaginative games called pretence. When we had each of us different character. I had Bonnie Prince Charlie or whoever. And so we spent a lot of time together, in the garden or in the house was wet. She was a very nice companion to have. And with just two years between us wasn't that much difference.
And when you were a lot younger, you didn't go to school. You had governesses and nannies. Is that right? Can you remember any of that? Jean?
Yes, sir. In fact, of us governance, I think the more models that governance, and we will perhaps brought up a little bit more old fashioned than some of our contemporaries that we did have to behave ourselves. We'll see quite straight. Well, you will do if you're doing something wrong, we say it was fairly clear that no, that's not a good idea.
What sorts of things were you taught what subjects
The governor says we're usually rather good on history, and English, and not very good on mouths? Probably didn't know much sounds at all. So we had rather one sided educations at home. But on the other hand, the house was full of books. And we were allowed to read pretty well, anything we liked. And we did.
And you'd grown up, you were born in 1923. Pat, so you grew up having a real sense of living through history in a way your parents had been involved in World War One, and you knew very well about that as children. Didn't that's true.
Yes, people were still talking a good deal about the wall. All our uncles and but more or less everybody had been involved in it. And I think Jim and I will really worried missed that the wouldn't be another great war like that in our lifetimes, because we all felt we'd miss the biggest event of the century. And it was all going to be rolled around climax.
That's funny because people listening might think that after the war, there was just relief, and that you'd never want it to happen again. But you felt like it might have been quite an adventure.
Yes, we felt Unity has been terribly important and dramatic. So we were just going to be coasting along and peacetime.
So the 30s, you were a little bit older, and you went away to school. And things started happening, the clouds started gathering over Europe. Really, before we talk about the lead up to the war gene, can you remember anything about boarding school?
Well, I was due to go to boarding school, what parents already had gone in 1939. And I was very much worried that something would stop me going to this boarding school, because the war had broken out. In fact, we went right, straight ahead. I felt somehow old. I was with the rest of the world wasn't I wasn't going to be left behind off trouble.
So you were worried that the war would start and you wouldn't get your chance to join deputy head pad at boarding school?
Yes. So you're worried about that? What does happen if a war starts to start, but it did.
And it's quite strange to think that war broke out in 1939. And yet, normal things seem to still be going on, like going to boarding school and making friends and playing sports and all of those things. That seems strange to me. Now,
I think it was rather strange that a good deal of normal life went on. It wasn't really quite normal for us because our father went back into the army having been on the reserve. Our mother became an ARP Warden, our raid precaution Warden, and used to do spells of evening duty and so on. So even on the lunch countryside, things changed a bit. But we did feel a bit on the sidelines, I think.
And what was your relationship at school? Like? Because Pat was a few years old, she was the deputy head girl when you started. Were you friendly at school? Did you spend time together?
Oh, yes, I think we were I was a bit at all, of course, because I was a junior at that stage. And I'd never been to a boarding school before, I'd never been away from him, I got a bit homesick. And when Pat was very good, helping me through it me a little wary of that people didn't think she was going to spoil one thing like that.
I think Gene has been very generous because I was running rather bossy. And I do remember that school that they didn't charge your parents for the first breakage. After that they did cheat managed somehow to pull over the curtain rail round the wash down and smash jugs and basins and everything else on it. But she was calling out first breakage first break. You know, I had to support her habits. Slight embarrassment. But she was rather more enterprising than me. So I was sometimes a little nervous about jeans, activities. But, you know, I was very fond of her and liked having her there.
Did it feel like a link with home when she was at school?
I suppose it was because I didn't enjoy school to be honest. I didn't go to boarding school till I was 14. And I'd sort of grown up quite a lot. I used to preside at a tea party as my mother was out and that kind of thing. And then boarding school, you just went back to being a pupil. I can't say I enjoyed it at all.
When I read your book, there seems to be this great sense of like you've just said a little bit sort of wanting to get on with real life and grow up and have a purpose and get on with it. And you both seem to have that you wanted to go to school and then you wanted to do your bit in the war effort and the same Pat, where do you think that enthusiasm for getting on with things comes from in your family?
Well, I think there's our parents are very good organisers and our father was in the Territorial Army. Our mother was an ARP Warden, but she also ran things in the village and so on. So I think we always had the feeling that you had has sort of responsible role in society and that you would be expected to take things on and run things and not just sort of retreat into a private life. It seemed to be something that you should expect.
Yeah. And when war broke out, you were on holiday in Scotland and your father cut the holiday short, because he felt he needed to be back with his regiment with his men. Can you tell me that story, please?
Yes, well, although we were really enjoying our holiday in the West of Scotland, used to go to a farmhouse listen to radio programmes. And it was clear that it was very likely that there would be a war. So we had to quickly pack up everything into the caravan. And they drove back to Lancashire and he rejoined his regiment.
What kind of man was your father Jean, what was his character like?
He was very responsible, was had to do the right thing, but can't be let off, because you didn't want him to wait or anything like that. He was surprisingly, understanding, I think for children, that he could see when you were having problems, or you're a bit worried about something, you felt you could talk to him about difficulties. He encouraged us so much, I would say,
to have a go things. So that our mother,
and having a go at things is a very tame way of describing what you girls did go on to do when you became young women. So after leaving school, where you a deputy head girl, you were sort of frantic to try and find purpose and a role packed?
Well, after school, I was too young to go into the services. And I did a secretarial training, had a secretarial job a few months at a London literary agency, which was interesting because you met authors and interesting people. But when I was 18, and I also had a few health problems, because in those days, children got to work Hello grammes from fresh cow's milk because it wasn't TT tested, as grandfather had a herd of pedigree short horn cows. And all our milk came straight from the farm. And sure enough, I got this two Bird Club plan problem. So I wasn't sure I would be able to get into the women's services. But we had an Austrian refugee cook. And I spent a lot of time talking to her. So I had flown conversational German, when I applied to the realms very helpful. And it was very helpful because I think they were looking for 18 year old girls who knew German, and that outweighed an effects of the Cosmelan. So I was duly called up to the Rennes and did the general training, and a special training in intercepting German radio communications.
So meanwhile, Jean is still at school when you're 19. And you must have been, Were you jealous that she was off joining the war effort? Were you desperate to join her?
Yes, I was very worried that I should miss out on all this. But to my relief, I got into the army before the war came to an end. And I did actually go overseas, and I was working in North Africa. So I didn't miss all things without being afraid of doing.
It was the Fannie's you were in, wasn't it? Yes, I
enjoyed the fairness. And I found that fascinating, and I enjoyed very much being away from home being independent, having something to be responsible for.
And the letter inviting you to join I think came on your 18th birthday has
social relief, much better than the birthday present or anything else.
So both of you, you're encouraged by your dad. And given opportunities to be educated at home and then educated at school. You must be naturally both pretty bright as well. You picked up German just by talking to somebody in the kitchen. And you both have kind of figured out interesting career paths. Do you see yourselves as brainy
don't think I feel specially brunette. I think I'll find learning languages easy. I think she As bilingual grandmother because she was a channel Islander, and they speak a lot of French, I think I had the idea that you could learn other languages quite easily, which indeed come in useful. You know, I'm reasonably bright because I got a good degree of Thor. But I think the family talked a lot. And I think perhaps that's a good thing for children that and Gina and I chatted away like anything.
And it wasn't a childhood where you were seen and not heard it sounds like it was a childhood where you were treated quite like little grownups really like taken into account.
In those days, ladies did calls on each other. And my mother used to take me with her to call on other households and so I did have a lot of grown up talk, I must say the highlight because if there is said, Would you like to see around the house, and I'd be up like a shot, you know, and particularly if she let you go into orchid in the wardrobe and see all her dresses, I think I was looking forward to being grown up. Rather than just enjoying my childhood rarely.
Oh, I was terrified that everything would finish before I got grown up enough to take part.
This season a relatively is sponsored by find my past the online home of the 1921 census. In 1921. In London, Wales were reeling from the Great War, and it shows in the sense of centuries of surviving soldiers, retired Army Officer Harold Samuel open apologise for typing his for explaining that he lost half his right hand in the late war, and cannot write properly. Another former servicemen simply wrote ruin by war in the section for occupation. How much do you know about your parents and grandparents lives in peacetime? Find out in the 1921 census exclusively available online at Find my past.co.uk? Both of you went into the war doing different things. But you both had to sign the Official Secrets Act. So you couldn't tell each other about all your exciting adventures while you were having them, which is the most extraordinary part of your story in some ways. Do you remember writing to Pat, during the war gene? And and what could you tell her about what you were doing?
The world? Lots of lessons very good lessons from North Africa neatly.
Yes, I suppose I just so much wanted to tell Pat what I was doing and share it with her because it was a grown up world I was living in would never have known about otherwise. That of course, we did have to keep this Official Secrets Act, that we couldn't tell each other everything that was going on.
And you really enjoyed travelling, didn't you?
Oh, it was a dream of my life to get out of a country go and explore this. North Africa had a very exciting and interesting all I thought.
Would you say you had an interesting and exciting war to Pat?
Well, I did. I mean, it wasn't as exciting from a travel point of view, because we could listen to German radio wavelengths, the German Navy's system of communicating from around the coast of England. So there's no point in my going abroad. But I would certainly say it was interesting because you were to watch his which was shifts in the listening stations that the Navy had set up along the case, you searched up and down the German fleets wavelengths. And you might come on nothing all night. Or you might happen on tour, usually a carrier wave. So there was this sort of warm up sound. And you knew this would be a radio transmitter. It could be very tense, and all you could do to keep up with traffic that was going on. And of course, you couldn't say a word about what you did your family, or friends or anybody.
In fact, the war seems, when I read your book, you're very close family. So you grew up in New Orleans together till you were teenagers. And then your father goes, and actually he ends up a prisoner of war in Japan, you don't know where he is for a long time. You girls are separate. You're on the coast of England and you're in Italy in North Africa, and your mom's still at home in Lancashire. All of a sudden your family is scattered. And you can't even find out what the other people are doing. So what were you imagining your sister was doing while you were twiddling the dials to try and intercept German ubos What did you think Jean was up to?
No, no, I mean, sort of Edrick head had guessed that it was working with our communications. Not the Germans, but I didn't know because genuis from German tools might have been might have been an Italian for all I knew.
And did you miss each other Jean during the ward? It was
like I was telling her about the things I was doing. And of course, I couldn't do anything like that. I have a few, we didn't manage a few suggestions which might be interpreted, or something like that. I think I was able to tell you when I went overseas was that
I certainly knew about you going overseas. But I didn't know exactly what you did know, it was years after the war. When I said, By the way, Jean, doing an essay on the wall? told me, I don't think I knew before this, you probably knew that
I'd gone overseas, Oh, yes.
In the letters that are published in your book, The things you could share freely with each other, still have that sense of some normal life going on. So there's still men who are interested in you. And there's still parties and clubs to go to and running away from King Farouk in Egypt. You know, there's fun and there's life and friendship.
Yes, I can remember if we had to have civilian clothes, which wasn't something that I expected. Mother made sure that I had proper places to go to parties and things like that, which seemed to be rather strange thing to do in a wall. But as we went out, in the ship, we changed in the evenings and put on civilian places and that sort of thing. If there's a central and then we went to Italy, and we were going to parties there as well.
There was interest from various gentleman as well. And in some of the letters you were telling each other Oh, you know, I've been out with this chap, but he's not, you know, yes,
I didn't want to get tied down by somebody else, or anything like that. So I was pretty Prim, about relationships with men. But on the other hand, I was all in favour of them taking me out for meals on getting exploring, but I did find that there were quite often older men who didn't want to have a different sort of relationship. But who were interested as I was, in the country, we were getting toward what they did that all restrict that was okay.
It was it was essential site to life. You know, there might be an army unit and seaside places where we were stationed, or we knew some of the naval officers in ships. And if they came into harbour, we could probably visit the ship and so on. And we did organise dances because I remember, I had my 21st birthday at a station called Abbott's cliff. Now, duva, I wasn't sure I would be able to have a party because it was the month of D Day. However, we did have one. I think we had a dance station, we suddenly invited our friends in the services. And so arrow says life was all the good actually.
And any romance for you or were you like Jean and not really wanting to get tied down, or like
just have a regular friend in the army. And he went over after the D Day landings and went across Europe. But I think we both felt we didn't want to get tied down. I was just 21. And I suppose he was much older. So although we kept in touch, I didn't expect that he would sort of stopped seeing other girls hidden think, I suppose that I would stop having a social life.
Where do you think the independent streak in you two as young women came from, because a lot of girls and young women around you were getting engaged falling in love going googly eyed over the local young pilots. And you too, not so much.
But I think I wanted to travel, most exciting thing in my life is to go into Europe and see other countries that was much more interested in the country. And then the boyfriends quite honestly.
I wanted to have a career of my own after the war. And I thought if I grew up tied down on the chemo wife, mother, it would be rather limiting. I also thought if those chance for university grant, I would like to take a degree, no woman on the family overhead. So Eros very keen on remaining independent really,
and for women of your gender. ration with some education or even those with less education. The war, tragic and awful that was for so many people was actually a huge opportunity for women. Because once you'd been this independent travelling career woman during the war was very hard to be stuffed back into a domestic role, wasn't it? So in a way, it was a golden ticket. It was
exactly that because some you'll know you had opportunities you would never have had. Normally we would have probably done or secretarial course, marriages, suitable young man and settled down in the country. Whereas some Well, I got out of the wrens to go to Norway, because the embassies were being opened up and Uncle Lawrence, who was the ambassador, needed staff for the Oslo embassy. So never having been abroad at all. Rather envision Jean for her travels, I did get a chance, actually to go broadens. sees that.
And Jean, you weren't interested either in settling down and just being a wife and mother, you were keen to take all of the opportunities, weren't you?
Yes, I do remember hearing that Fitzroy MacLean, who was now neighbour, but was a traveller and did all sorts of interesting things, was getting back to Europe. And I picked up the telephone and said when you're going and he said Tuesday or whatever. And I said, Write for time. And see you on the platform at Lancaster station. And we will go and you did and I did.
And you've been very gung ho like you were involved in setting up the University of Lancaster. That's right, the careers department there. You quite like a challenge, don't you?
I do. But I also like to protect people from being driven into doing things they don't want to do. So I spend quite a lot of my time interviewing students who are getting terribly bored or frightened or something like that and saying, Look what I did. You just go on and find what thing that you want to do and do it. And I found they were so relieved, because they thought they had to do the right thing
you don't. So you were giving young people permission to do what they wanted
is very important. Find out what's available.
I think that's amazing. Because even now, I think that almost seems revolutionary is an idea to do exactly what you want. And you were doing it a long time ago. Well, yes, it didn't
occur to be doing what you want to do. And they were all surprising. They very often did what I suggested.
Is it that that you admire about your sister, because she seems to be incredibly brave,
Pat? Yes. I mean, Julian was also very independent. She was definitely braver than me. And she was a bit of a loner when she was a child, she would go off for quite long walks around the countryside. And whereas I might be going on calls with my mother or something, Jean will be doing something much more independent. So I bought her sort of strength of character. At times, of course, she was unruly, younger sister, and I was probably rather bossy. We were very different. I was conventional and bided by the rules, and so on, rather, whereas I could see Jim was doing something quite different.
What do you admire about your sister? Well,
one thing she was an adult, I felt she was much more grown up than I was, which of course is probably true. She could deal with visitors coming to her house of among themselves and available or something like that. Whereas I'd probably disappear into the shrubbery. But I felt it was absolutely invaluable to have passed, I could get an Oscar if I was worried about something if I didn't know how to cope. I was a bit scared that I wouldn't go to pattern, she would save me and get me out of trouble, whatever.
Do you think that's still true? Expect to
though I don't think we get into quite so much trouble as we did when you're teenagers.
So after the war, you both did marry eventually, late. Ish. Did your relationship change once you found people to marry or did it sort of stay the same?
I wouldn't say changed at all. We did as it helped him get married the same year. It was very late in my case, fairly late in jeans case. I didn't want to have children because I was enjoying my Korean television production. To a lot of fun children, that incumbrance in a way, later on, I was rather sorry, because the last time I could have perhaps had a family all hours over 40. But we always kept in touch, and didn't make any difference. When we got married, we still did. Well, I
suppose it didn't change because I was travelling around abroad with my husband didn't have children. He had been married before. And so I had stepchildren to look after, because our mother had gone.
And you've always stayed in touch by writing and you still write to each other?
Well, our mother was great letter writer. And we will very much brought up to write to each other. And Gina and I've been writing letters to each other all our lives. I don't think we use emails, do we, we we write proper letters? Yes.
You're very funny letter writer, very observant.
Well, if you've got something that's amusing, you, you want to tell somebody else and you also see the office person you can talk to because, you know, they weren't, they will let all about you. You can tell I can tell Pat. And I think it was I think it's interesting or far more. I look forward to all nighters, because you'll get very vivid accounts of things. And I think I know that that will be interested, so that I can tell her things which might not interest anybody else. But you will know why I'm writing this one to her. So I think we have a pretty close relationship. We've actually be more in touch with each other than most sisters, I think, our age.
Do you have any other sisters your age? I don't
know. I know. We're getting on. I think I've probably gone by now.
Let's not cousins who are sisters, that we don't see a lot of them.
What does it mean to you to have somebody who's shared your whole life in the way that you two have shared each other's whole lives?
It's tremendously important rarely, I think Jean is the only one who I've known all my life, because we had a younger brother was he went abroad and he died. And we we had a very long childhood together. Even after we sort of separated some extent,
I knew I'd always got Pat. If I really was having problems. I was unhappy. I could go to her undid. So the important thing was that we would talk to each other and can say anything, if I was really upset about something it prepared her talk to.
And still, I think so
it will be we didn't seem to have as many problems as we get older.
I think we solved a lot of the problems that oh, now I think Jane is the most important person in my life, and vice versa, and had happy marriages. But in both cases that sadly ended. But gene was there all through and still is.
And my final question, what would you say to younger sisters? Who are not as old as you? And what would you say to them about looking after their relationship or how to think about their sisterly relationship?
Well, I think I'd say that you're you're very lucky if you have a sister or brother that you feel you can talk to about anything. We have never had a quarrel, I can think of keeping this happy relationship all your life you're very lucky and life would have been very much more lonely and different without Jean. Jean is the person I most look forward to being with and thank goodness we do have quite a bit of time together each year. But it's very important to have somebody that you can say anything to
you might not want to tell anybody else are we all feeling or something like that but I could bring pet up and say look upset about this or worried or frightened or something I would never say to somebody else. That is my other half.
The sponsors of this season of relatively fine my past or kid at UK had a complete field day with the outrun family tree as you can imagine. It turned out that the sisters are descended from the first barons tomorrow's from the Channel Islands. I linked up with them A little bit after our tea date in Chizik to tell them more about him. Hello, Catherine,
we can hear you now. And this is green,
I can hear.
He was awarded the Knight Grand Cross of the Order of Bath command a Grand Cross of the Order of the sword of Sweden, and the freedom of the City of London. All of those awards. Good heavens.
Well, that should be good for feel free holidays for us.
Yes, I've never thought games to the Channel Islands and following it up, but I rather wish I'd done it now. It's fiddly.
What's really wonderful is the researchers at Find my past have managed to find a picture by Edward Harding. From night at no one during the Second Battle of owl just Cirrus. I think it is, as he's getting ready to pursue the combined squadron of France and Spain.
Well, that sounds really interesting. I think come we probably could read up a bit more about what the summer is family were doing in the Napoleonic Wars.
It's you must. It's a very beautiful picture. It's got James Samaras standing with a beautifully elegant woman with an empire line dress and they're in the port, with all these people carrying barrels and things and then there's this fleet of huge beautiful boats with the Union Jack on in front of them in the water.
Well, we'd love to see that. Thank
you so much. But I would love to have a chance to see this if somebody could find me and put us together on the computer.
Well, that does sound interesting, doesn't it Jean?
Of course we did connect her and packed with a computer and they've since looked at all the certificates, articles, paintings, pictures, and more harvested from find my past.com A special thank you to Philippa from OG podcasts for going along and recording there and have that little conversation about their amazing family history. Thank you so much to pat and Jean and also to Simon for helping to make this episode happen. If you want to read their story, they co authored a book called codebreaking sisters our secret war, and it's full of all the letters that we talked about. It's a really, really good read.
As Jane was sometimes known as Genex was a child sometimes called her J and Roland Jean, just for variety.
I'd also like to say a huge thank you to our sponsors for this season a relatively fine my past for digging into their extraordinary records and uncovering surprising and often revelatory family stories, some of which you've heard today by my past is the only place online where you can access the 1921 census. So if you want to start your family tree or add colour to what you know already, then find my past or co.uk is the place to do it. You can see lots of brilliant pictures of Patton Jean in wartime day's relatively podcast.com where you can find all of our back catalogue as well. On relatively next week, Leroy Logan MBE former police superintendent and founding member of the Black Police Association, whose story of his life closing ranks my life as a cop was made into a film and Logan was played by John Boyega he joins me with his sister hyacinth who works as a nurse
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