Oh one extreme, that's a new one. What does that mean live streaming is live streamed always right, the live stream actually dictates it for us. Okay, cool.
All righty. So, hey everybody. I was just coming on board because I wanted to introduce Ed to Elisa who's helping us out with some of these zoom events is last time I did the introduction or actually I did the non introduction with with her and Geoffrey. But where I just wanted to just reiterate with everybody how fortunate we are to have Dr O'Malley with us is, he was just sharing with me. How wonderfully busy he is with his research his clients his work and so the fact that he takes time out of his busy schedule to hang with us is no small thing, we're tremendously appreciative. So, as usual, I think he's probably got some initial opening statements. And then the bulk of what we do is going to be participatory with all you guys coming in and, and asking him questions challenging him, Ed loves to be challenged.
Most of the time. Depends on how made it is,
But without any further ado, my dear friend Jake are away and Greek as you're listening with your ears. Okay,
thank you Andrew and Alisa you'll do what you know how to do well and so you just keep me posted, keep me on, on task. Welcome everyone, good to see you all. Even Barry who's out of space right now. Great pick Berry. Yeah, and hopefully Eric's here I'm going to get to talk about the whoop today, at some point, but I thought I'd start off with yeah he's a great you know, yep, there it is. You were right, it is a wearable and resting and all that stuff so I'll talk about it. But, and sort of in conjunction with that and there'll be a lie, a nice segue to it. I wanted to talk today about the difference between a sleep blog and a sleep diary, and why they are important, I mean I mentioned it, you know, we hear about it but it's one of the best ways and easiest ways to determine whether or not there's an issue you need to bring beyond yourself. Do you need to bring here even or bring to your sleep doc or, or your primary care doc or when it's time to do something about. Okay, so, um, can I share my screen. Do we lose. No, she's there, Alyssa, Lisa something that still here, you should be able to. Not yet. Let me see. You have the power in the control. Let's see. And of course, anyone's coming up with questions and things you want to talk about please put it in the. Thank you. I got it now put it in the whoops, that work. There we go. Yeah, but I didn't want the email we're missing again let me just, Okay hold on let me do that again. And. Okay, so here's a pic of a sleep blog. And it's interesting, because I have a sleep diary which has a lot more information that's being requested. But I thought I'd also pare down one that just calls it the sleep log. The diary has has everything kind of like a diary of your day and night. This is more about, you know, when are you sleeping, actually, and that's all. And I found you know for some people, this is the easiest thing to do without worrying about trying to figure out everything else. And no matter how I how I create these, they can be difficult. I mean I get people even with this simple log, you know, they'll put an arrow down here sideways, I don't know what that means, or an arrow, you know, both arrows going up or both arrows going down. So, what this is really about is finding a way to get a sense of what your perception of sleep is. Now, generally, and on the other diary I have. Don't look at the clock because that's generally for people
who are in, in some kind of treatment program with me. And one of the first things I will tell people, if you're having sleep difficulties is do not look at the clock. The clock is not your friend, you've heard me say this before, I'll say it again. And many times, the clock really serves to activate the brain once we look at the clock and we're not sleeping then we start calculating how many hours we have left, how many hours we've slept. What's the big thing we have on tomorrow which is probably why we're not sleeping tonight and now it's going to be even more difficult to get sleep because we'll start worrying about that. And if not, that something else. Okay, so, but in general when I'm just trying to get a sense of what people are sleeping and this is something people can use for themselves at any time, is to just in the morning, you want to fill out this form so this person went to sleep on to seven so I have an example here that I finally added with some detail. So what I want you to do is fill out in the morning so the date. Today's date would be the morning of the prior night that you just woke up from or had at least some sleep from. And then you want to put an arrow down when you're trying to fall asleep. And the reason I say it that way is because some people will climb into bed if I say go to bed. They may climb into bed and read for a while, they may watch TV for a while they may listen to a couple of guided meditations, play with the dog or the cat. All kinds of things, but when you turn out that light when you're really effectively trying to sleep. We're trying to allow sleep. That's where the arrow goes. And then there's a up arrow in the morning when you're up for the day, not when you first woke up, not during the middle of the night, if you got up to go to the bathroom, but only in the morning when you were up for the day. So for me, this comprises your attempt to sleep at night. Okay. And I scribbled in here you know you can block it in I get some real artistic designs that people give me back really well, you know like hash marks that are perfectly aligned and all that but the idea is that you want to be able to get a sense of when you think you're asleep. And some people when they first do this they're going to look at the clock anyway so that's why I'm the log, I kind of want people to do whatever they've been doing. So if they are looking at the clock and the way I usually know that is, it's precisely marked each day, oil, just ask him about that and that's important to know because again I'm going to say stop looking at the clock, but then you want to then shade the boxes when you think you were sleeping. Okay. And if you awake during the night I usually say for more than a half an hour or half an hour or more, you want to leave that area unshaded. Okay. And then if you sleep for any time during the day, more than half an hour, kind of like a nap, you would shade in that time as well. So when I'm going to look at the total hours of sleep per 24 I will get these hours and add up all of this so I get one hour 23456 maybe seven and a half, for this particular night. Okay. But of course there's so much more information this person has some difficulty falling asleep, has some difficulty maintaining sleep. So I not only can see the number of hours, but I can see what's happening, what kind of sleep efficiency we have. I can also wonder about whether this nap is supplementing sleep, or maybe robbing from the sleep on this night maybe that's why it's taking them a little bit longer to fall asleep at night. And so I have this explained here that, on this night. On the day night the person took an hour nap, went to bed at 10 took about an hour to fall asleep. That's why this is unshaded, and then they were awake for about half an hour, and again they woke up, and then they lollygag in bed for a while and finally got up seven. Okay, so that's kind of how I would get the log. Now, and sometimes this works so I'm just going to stop this year and then share again, And then look at the diary because the diary is definitely more involved. Okay, so there are a lot of words on this diary.
And here peered absolutely says, Do not watch the clock. In fact, place the clock out Have you just estimate your sleep time or time awake. Okay. And I tell people that, because look, I don't need to know the exact amount of sleep you're getting I need to know what your perception of sleep is because if that doesn't change. I haven't really helped you. If you don't feel like you're sleeping more that then, not, not adequate management of your insomnia or whatever else is going on. So I want to make sure you're feeling like you're, you're sleeping because you know there are things like on the story of sleep. And so, you know, if you're showing me logs with blocks and blocks of sleep that you think you're sleeping and you're still sleepy, we have a problem we need to investigate further. And also, if it's pure insomnia, then we need to get the clock out of the picture because again, as I said, it just serves to activate your brain. And so this basically just adds more information. I want to know for instance, Under the rested calm so here I have two additional columns besides hours I want to know how rested you were after you're asleep. Okay, so this particular example, you know, similar to the one I was just showing you on the blog. They got up had a cup of coffee, they figured they slept a total of about six hours, and they were rested on a scale of one to seven only a four. So somewhere in the middle so they're not really feeling fully rested, although they feel like to get some sleep. Okay. And then in the alert column in this alert Tom I want to know how was your day. Okay, sometimes people are trying to get a lot more sleep than they think. Okay, they think they need eight hours a night you'll see it all over the place you'll, you'll hear me talk about that, but that's a population average. And the people with insomnia, you may have heard me say this before the people with insomnia almost always need less than eight. So let me say that again. If you've been struggling with insomnia, particularly if you've had it for years, you most likely need less than eight hours of sleep, almost everyone who has is unable to get eight hours generally falls in the six to seven, maybe seven and a half hour I usually see people six, Six and a half, and they feel semi rested, but during the day, they are fully alert, day in and day out, it's not that they can't take a nap, most of them can anyway, but they don't need to take a nap they function just fine if you're just fine. They do everything that needs to be done. And they do that for days on end. So in my book, they're meeting their sleep need their sleep need is less than a, if they're trying to get eight then that's going to be shooting themselves in the foot on the other end. But I also want to know what's going on with caffeine. Okay, so now I'm getting into some real details. So this guy had a couple of cups of coffee at four had some chocolate at six maybe with dinner right after dinner, had a glass of wine after dinner, took his medications, and then tried to sleep. So maybe this caffeine is over. What if he's you know 6570 That caffeine that comes from the coffee late afternoon and the chocolate may actually be why he's having trouble falling asleep, and it may also contribute to why he's waking up during the night. So, this gives me much more detail what medications are we taking Oh, melatonin okay that can be helpful. Taking a pretty early and Ambien, right at 10 An Ambien isn't apparently working because he's taking an hour to fall asleep so here's a lot more information. Okay and this is what I need when I'm working with clients who have insomnia and we're trying to figure out what's going on. Okay, so and then of course, I have a lot more days, we're gonna monitor this for a while. So, the segue to the devices is that
it's, if you're wearing a device, or you're like me and you're wearing three devices. Now, I have my own ring anybody who's been on knows I have the ring. I also have my Fitbit, this is now a charge for. And I have thanks to Eric, I have the hoop. I don't know how they pronounce it, I think it's hoop. Anyway, it's. They didn't make it a wrist wearable. And that's fairly recent. It wasn't available probably six months ago so it's fairly recent. But unlike the aura ring, and unlike why I really liked your ring is that the, they have not validated against the sleep study, the NPS G nocturnal polysomnogram, it has not been validated by what we would consider the gold standard of sleep monitoring, and that is an NPS G. So, so that does two things one is you know always makes the data a little more questionable. and to anything they say about sleep stages, I would have to, you know, I'd have to definitely say question it with a big grain of salt. Okay. And I clearly have, you know I have data from last night for instance, which is really interesting like it tells me I have, I had two and a half hours of REM sleep, and my earring gave me an hour, you know, like, really big differences, total sleep time they underestimate total sleep time which is interesting. But, you know, they're not that far off in terms of sleep time they put they can be off, but they're generally pretty good overall. And when I do like about them is what they offer, they talk about this meeting your they somehow, they have their own algorithm that calculates sleep need based on all your other variables if they do do heart rate variability they do do heart rate, so they get a sense of what your body is, let's say, what what your body's drain is during the day and calculate how much sleep you need at night. And so in the morning they match those two numbers and say hey, you know, have you met that sleep need or not. And presumably, the more you meet that sleep need the better off you're going to be. Now, the problem with not having the sleep stages is that you can get a little can get a little, a little off, and so at some point I'd like to see them come back on, and I've clearly, you know, the other thing they don't have is a histogram. And I've shown you guys histograms before right they show you, you're awake and it drops down when you go to sleep and it shows you deep sleep down here and if you go up to REM sleep a little below awake and so you can look cross tonight. I can't find it, I don't know Eric if you found it on their, in their software, I don't see it anywhere and I'm just, I'm annoyed because that is really the measure of a night's sleep. And I thought maybe they didn't put it in because they wouldn't report. Light sleep deep sleep and REM but they do report numbers for that so I don't know what the story is there. Okay, Andrew. So, I'll, uh
I'll make that segue a little broader and say, the first thing, if you are sleep device, if your thing, your wearable is telling you you're not sleeping well, or the reason you don't think you feel well is because you're not sleeping well. Take a sleep log, take a sleep diary, start at least with the Lord. And Lord, you're asleep before you look at your data log your perception of sleep before you look at your data, because it won't take long before you're going, Oh look I slept really well let's see I put down, you know, you want to really get a sense of what it's saying. And your perception of what you're what you're feeling and how they match up. So if there's, if there's a complete mismatch. That's not helpful, if it's saying you're getting seven hours and you feel like you're getting six, not too bad, it might be close, close enough and then on the night that you feel like you got seven, and it says a call, now you're getting pretty close, you understand it's overestimating how much sleep you feel like you're getting. Okay, and so you want to have a sense of what that is. Maybe it's going to take you to get up to nine hours on your device. To know that you're feeling like you're getting eight. Okay, but if you're going to use if you're worrying about whether you're getting enough sleep or not, certainly this is the place to start would be the logs, and if you have a device, go ahead and make sure your perception counts more, because again, if what you're doing doesn't change your perception of your sleep if you're not feeling like you're sleeping more better, more restoratively or your days aren't doing as well as the device is saying, that's what you want to know, okay, the device is great for a sleep wake and approximating, what you do, how that can change. Yeah, that's where it's useful so it's very relative which is not absolute, it's not absolutely accurate. And again, the closest one is the is the ring. And
I'm not sure if I showed you guys this before I have, this is one and this is a headband, the dream headband that I talk a lot about because I've looked at this data and this data is indistinguishable from a sleep study in a sleep lab. Okay. And, you know, it's pretty easy to wear, you put it on like so, and you go to sleep. Well I hit the button and all that, but essentially it's fairly comfortable, and you'll get an accurate, you'll get enough data that you could actually take to your sleep doc or your primary care doc, and if that saying you're not getting enough sleep, that I would believe, okay, but it's always the best idea to get what your perception of your sleep is down first. All right. Um, and I don't think I said this but I do need to leave at 530 today. Okay, just so you guys are all aware. So if you have questions start getting them out there. I'm ready.
Um, Tim actually has a question. He said, Hi Dr. Ed, I get up to use the bathroom two to three times tonight. I'm urinate, almost every night, is that within average drained or too much.
Also,
well before you go further, okay so at that depends on age. The older we get, the more that can be considered normal. Okay so above 5560 That would be reasonable. As long as you're returning to sleep but let's see okay the rest. Go ahead.
Okay, it says, also I usually wake up after about three hours or so, and stay up for a couple of hours, and, excuse me, and go back to sleep. I do seem to average seven to eight hours a night and feel pretty good overall. Do you think this schedule is okay or should I try to modify it.
I'll stop right there. Great. Absolutely. If it's, if you can have that many hours to sweep and you could be up a couple hours during the night and you know you still get in your day's work or whatever you need to do, and you feel pretty good all day and you're getting close to seven and a half day seven day. Absolutely, absolutely fine. You know I talked a little bit about it, there are a couple of books on. What's the term for it.
That when you sleep into bouts like you're describing okay back in the day before the electric light. A lot of people did this candles were really expensive. So they would essentially go to sleep soon after sundown, they'd have a couple of cycles of sleep and wake up, socialize, talk Have a cigar sit with friends read for a good cycles worth or two, and then return to sleep and get up with the dawn. So that was a fairly normal pattern at least in Western societies, and it's certainly in the literature and that's why they wrote these books about them. And you can be quite, you know you could be you could use that time to meditate, you can use that time creatively I do know a few people who do that who purposely do that. So we're really designed to wake up in the middle of the night, check the environment make sure we're safe and go back to sleep. And so if you wake up then and you want to stay up, absolutely fine. Okay, thanks, Elisa. Of course,
he also asked what your opinion was of galantamine Galantamine Andrew had mentioned it as a supplement to enhance streaming.
Yeah, um, it's a ko nergic agonist, which means it supports acetylcholine how it works in the brain. It's, it's something they developed for Alzheimer's. And that's because that same neurotransmitter is decreased, it decreases with aging it, and it's not clear whether it's normal aging or abnormal aging, but it decreases with aging and it's certainly contributing to memory loss. So it's kind of, it activates the frontal lobes and the basal forebrain which are areas that we need for both memory and cognition, and they give it a much higher doses where they have given it much higher doses like I think up to 24 milligrams a day for Alzheimer's treatment, but it has potential, a lot of potential side effects. Now, the one that Angela's mentioned it's mostly you're talking, and I think it's four milligrams and eight milligrams. So four milligrams, they usually come in Formula gram tablets you again this is all off label and this is your on your own but it is, it is sold as a supplement, people do use it in the anti aging field. So it's not unheard of and it doesn't seem to have any particular major side effects. It's just that it can have some so you need to pay attention to how you feel once you do take it, but if you do take it at night. I would start with four milligrams and then maybe go up to eight. You can find it helps. What it does is it kind of brings that alertness that cognitive awareness into sleep. And so it can support lucid dreaming. It has supported lucid dreaming, and I can actually even speak from personal. Let's just say I try most everything that's out there that people want to try for sleep just as long as it's safe for my brain. Well no one in over 20 years. But for the time being. Yeah, it seems pretty safe. It seems to be seems to do what it's supposed to do. Now, having said that, there are people in which it has no effect. So, you know, you can try it and see what it does for you.
Okay, let's see. Eric said, he also has definitely noticed that his work seems to say that he's sleeping less than he feels like sort of thinks he is.
Yeah, yeah. Okay so there we go there's you know more evidence yeah it's just, Eric, do you have a Fitbit too we're just using the whoop. No, okay. Yeah, yeah, and in fact by both by both measures that I have. And I've switched arms and switched hands, you know. And clearly, the devices are, they're pretty consistent with what they do but yeah it's, it's good to know that, so you can actually use that information. Have you tried sleep log Eric Carell, I can unmute him see Yeah. There we go.
Sometimes I'll try to record my awakenings during the night, I'm not I'm not super disciplined about it but not not really not to that extent of the law that you showed,
okay. Yeah, so it would be good to, to know if it matches your perception, I mean that's what I'd want to know before I started using it for anything else. Yeah, worthwhile, checking that out. Thanks Tim. Eric Rata. Yeah, Tim Yeah, back to the wakeup bathroom wakeups absolutely perfectly normal. Yeah. Barry asks I see now I can see the chat. I pulled it up. Thanks. What was that headband. Yeah, sorry, it's the. Yeah, I probably shouldn't have showed it okay I'm taking it away now. I recommended it, it was almost like my giving it the the kill of death on it. When I mentioned things that people should get it was back when we were discussing what was the best thing we could do to record sleep. The Muse headband has not been validated at all I had been waiting for that for a while. And this is the only other thing out there, and at the time it was a consumer device, you could buy it and use it. And then we, we had set up to do a research study looking at some sound and light device that seems to improve sleep and from the time we first set it up to the time we needed to order more headbands, the company decided to pull all the consumer ones off, and this was sort of secondary to COVID. Excuse me. Second.
Okay, thanks.
And so what they did was because there was such a, you know people having a hard time getting sleep studies with COVID and having to bring people in, they were getting there was a great demand for these headbands to record sleep because they were so good, So the sleep doctor knew this and they started ordering him and buying them and ordering them for the sleep labs and find the company said we're going to pull out the consumer devices and we're not going to, we're only going to sell to research and sleep labs now clinical sleep labs. So unfortunately they're not available as a consumer product. I'm hoping they once. If ever COVID Decides to Die back and we're back on chart back in charge and we can do what we used to do, to some extent before they're going to release it to as a consumer device but I don't know. So, sorry, Barry. I'm more questions. Anybody want to raise their hand and talk. So I can talk less.
Okay are you folks with your videos off Are you asleep. That's one way to get Karen's up. Karen, I think we heard you saw no you muted that wasn't you snoring I guess you weren't there you want to speak to yeah yeah Kevin lamium Okay, we'll have a discussion now,
here we go. Actually, I just want to confirm that there was a modem for my internet close to where he asleep in the hallway and it had a little light on it so it was like a little nightlight, and had to get to another location around the corner, so my room is totally dark now. And I actually slept better or more solidly. Make the room dark, but it acts. And so I woke up to pee in the first time it wasn't there and it went, Oh,
yeah, no, that's a great observation. those LEDs are powerful, right. Once you have all the lights out you really notice the level of light that they put out. Yeah, this tiny little green light, but yep yep no I do the same thing I had to put socks over my over my powerbar which I have not close to the bed. But in, you know, on that side further down, and just the light from the switch that tells me it's on. Like illuminating the place so I had to, you know cover that and
so okay so I have another short talk some more about as you fall asleep and then as you wake up it's hip to guide to hip No.
Yeah,
I love that time in the morning because I take my dream journal and I kind of write the discursive thoughts I have here the reflection, or the little what happened and it's cool like funny little things get associated with whatever the dream was. I love that time. Yeah, that was a dreaming or anything it's just,
well, I'm probably not but I mean hypnopompic and hypnagogic they're, you know hypnagogic is when you're going into sleep hypnopompic is the term for when you're coming out of sleep. But what they are is you are you are kind of like in lucid dreaming but you're not dreaming, you're fully awake, but you're not fully awake. So So it's that in between states. So could there be, could there be some lucidity around that and there certainly can be. There certainly can be. And maybe you're demonstrating a little bit of that by your ability to journal, you know what's happening in Newton these little things are kind of slipping in. Yeah, so I would I would cultivate that you know and if you are if you're still a little sleepy. You might write a few things put it down and lay your head back down and see if you can create a awake Induced Lucid Dream because it's easier from either of those two states, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, I get little captions Latimore I get like a voiceover. That said, Oh, try for the middle way. Don't get too tight or too loose. Nice advice from from wherever it is, from
Nick maybe Angela is in over our heads. Well, that's probably. Yeah, that's probably you somewhere. You know,
cool some kind of like capital SL for some kind of little wisdom thing that gives me these little bit tidbits.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would definitely get them down. Yeah, get them down, they're worth gold. Great, great at the
other end, I fall asleep so fast I never, Nothing happens at that end.
Okay, okay. Well there are a lot of elderly people who would who would value that ability so to fall asleep quickly counts as of right now, it counts as elder. Okay. Greg you. Sure. Thank you. Right. Barry's got his hand up, let's see what he has. Okeydoke.
I would, I would take that, that would Karen's thing I would, I'm a kid 74 But I would still like to fall asleep as quickly as you do care. So you could pass that along. I'd appreciate it.
Hey there,
I have a question I'm in a Dream Theory group with people with PTSD, mostly veterans. And one of the veterans brought up a thing called the Emotion Code I don't know if you're familiar with that. It's called the Emotion Code. And it has a lot to do with the fear that the body picks up all these things that happen to us and sometimes the body holds on to these emotions and certain parts of the body. actually a good, a good thing to learn to do is to release those. One of the ways in the book that he mentions doing it is using magnets, and I wonder if you have any feeling or experience with that. And I guess if you don't know the book I can put that reference in the chat, but do you have any experience with using magnets for things like healing or or issues
or not personally, but I know of using magnets, there are a magnet mats in which people sleep on, at least for pain arthritic pain, joint pain that kind of thing works wonders. So, you know how it works out, it's a really good question. I'm curious what the what the thinking is around that and no I don't know of the Emotion Code, but I do know. You may have come across, I'm sure you've come across the trauma guy Bessel van Nichol, he's a international trauma specialist. Psychiatrists doing a lot of trauma research, and he wrote a book called The Body Keeps the Score, because it does it stores traumas in the body. He likes Neurofeedback a lot for pulling out some of this, but I hadn't, you know, had heard of using magnets for pulling it out of the different aspects of the body, he's, he's a big proponent of movement of yoga of also the utricle movement, you know acting out creative movement, the arts as a way to unwind, some of the traumas. So, interesting, interesting yeah send send the link that would be great. Thank you.
Alright, looks like you put that link in the chat for everybody. Let me unmute, Eric. Okay.
Yeah, that's right, I had a question that came to mind when Karen was talking if, and it's kind of related to what you're saying with like the, the PI phasic sleep or the polyphasic sleep if someone was if I were to wake up in the middle of the night after like a 90 minute cycle. And then stay awake for say 30 minutes or 60 minutes, and then go back to sleep. Why would I go back into the same stage that I left off, sleeping at or would it go in just as if I had been sleeping it or is it some mix of that as
well, that well, that's a really good question, and it depends, it's one of those answers that depends. So if you're within the cycles of sleep roughly 90 minutes cycles. Okay, so remember on the histogram, you drop into lighter sleep, non REM sleep first. You go into deeper REM non REM sleep, and then as you come out you reverse that you go into lighter non rem and then into maybe a little period of REM sleep, and that's what makes your brain and makes you more likely to awaken, after a full cycle of sleep because your, your brain is cognitive, it's up near close near the awake state anyway, and any little thing can bring you to full wakefulness. And so, if you allow yourself to awaken spontaneously, then I would say when you go back to sleep, you're going to just repeat that process, okay you know so slight non REM into deeper non REM, and depending on the time of the night, so if it's in the middle of the night, you'll mostly go into light non rem and probably not into very deep, non rabbit up into more likely longer periods of room. If you're awakened or you set your alarm to awaken you. Then you need to assess what state you're in, to really know what you're going to go back in, if you were in really deep sleep and that means when you wake up with the alarm you're like groggy, let's go and oh that's right I remembered setting my alarm I don't know what the hell I was thinking, then you drift back to sleep. You'll more likely go right into deep non REM, because you haven't gotten it, and your brain prefers to finish where it started, particularly when it's, when it's about deep sleep. Same with REM know if you awaken in the middle of a dream, you know that's where those processes work right, you can go right back into it you can carry yourself back into it because wherever you were, you're more likely to go back into that. Okay, unless you've completed full cycles.
Yeah, that makes sense, but what if what if you what if that awakening period is longer, what would it go do would it be the same. Well,
we pick up a little more pneumatically yeah yeah that's a good, good point. Um, there is a thing known as the ultradian rhythm, and the old trading rhythm is a 90 minute cycle that runs throughout the 24 hour periods. It just, it ran is linked to that and in fact in narcolepsy. Okay narcolepsy is not only a disorder of Wake SLEEP DISORDER grim. The narcoleptic falls asleep during the day on one of those 90 minute cycles, right into REM sleep, and that's part of the problem that's why some of the side effects that they have hypnagogic hallucinations, they have body weakness with emotion, that's like the body going into RAM and getting paralyzed. So, so that 90 minute cycle is something that's biological, physiological throughout our 24 hour period. So, if you're awake during the night and you're kind of in between those cycles, and it depends on when you fall back asleep where you may go. So that is to there is that possibility. But you're, if you're doing it in a sense, physiologically supportive, then you will make your wakeups within cycles, you know, or approximately cycle length, okay 90 minutes 45 minutes but not in between. Got it. Yeah, super helpful. Thank you. Sure, sure. And if you're doing that, I want you to report back what's going on what happens. What happens with your dreaming, do you get more do you more lucid going back in, you know, because one of the things we do with awake induce lucid dreaming is to be awake, and to be during the night, once we've gotten a couple of cycles of sleep out of the way, then it's much easier to go right into a REM period because your brain, you're you're still active, you can kind of carry that happening. And also, not to go so deep again because you've had a couple of cycles already, so it's easier to be more aware and get into teams. For sure, yeah, I'll report back definitely. Great, thanks. Hey, let me get Rachel unmuted here. Okay, thank you.
Okay. Hi, I'm Rachel. I have a quick question. I'm working on remembering my dreams. And there was one time when I started lucid dreaming I was able to do lucid dreaming just one time only but then after that I just lost it. And so if I'm still trying to work on remembering my dreams. Is it too early to try to do to wake up in my dream or they're fairly independent.
Oh, good question. Good question, and congratulations on getting that, at least one lucidity. When you use the dream, you know, any of Andrew stuff right we'll also talk about what you're doing in the daytime, right so you want to make sure you're doing your meditations you're clearing out that stuff during the day to support what happens at night. But what I would do is I mean are you getting good at recording your dreams are you getting details down or are you remembering every night at remembering multiple dreams. Um, um,
I haven't written down my dreams yet. Some nights they do better than others, but when I do wake up if I don't have a lot of details I do remember the, the, the approximate storylines, but I don't have a lot of details.
Yeah. Well, so, so that's one of the things you can be working on even if you're not ready, I mean, if you write them down, it's generally easier you begin remembering more details, the more you write them down, but it's not absolutely necessary. And if you are noticing, by just working on this whole thing of lucid dreaming, you're remembering more dreams, even if they're vague, you're just getting more, or you're remembering just a few more details as you go, you're on the right track. Right, so I wouldn't not try to be lucid, you know, you could try holding that acidity like the Wake Induced Lucid Dreaming trying to drift into awareness when you wake up during the night shift back into a dream, holding your awareness, see where it takes you. Yeah, you know, I think that's fine, and, yeah, again, report back. What's going
on right and well so work on both processes so just, you know, Whatever I can do so, try to stay awake if I can't if I don't do wake Induced Lucid dreaming, at least when I wake up. Yeah. Okay, great.
Let's see. Does anybody else have any questions,
something in it. There we go.
Kathy Are you waving, or are you, you, would you like to talk.
Let me meet me.
I think she wants to talk, which
I have started with hanging around with Andrew I have started recording dreams, and I wouldn't, I would, it's more liminal. And I'm. It's pretty stunning. The stuff that's coming up. My most active time in I'm doing really well, recording I got one of those pins it's with the red light on the end and I'm like, oh, boy, there's stuff coming up that I don't really want to know about and I know that I want to know about it, and I'm, you know, looking at it. But, my friends, the last couple years have been telling me that I'm snoring which I never did before, and that when I'm waking up I'm gasping, so I'm actually in the end of October, God, I'm scheduled to go in for, to talk with the sleep doc. So, um, what I mean, I know when I go, I prep when I go into see Docs because I want to see who the doc is I'm basically interviewing them to see if I want to work with them. If it fits my idea of what's the most progressive stuff going on right now, and I don't want stuff assess that is not worth being assessed. Is there anything that you could tell me about the what I should have sort of of my context going in.
So, so, how are you, functioning in the daytime, is my first question.
Um, well I'm retired. I'm 70, um, you know things aren't what they used to be, but I'm getting, I get a lot done. You know I take, I take, I could take a two hour nap. But as per Anders instructions I max it at a half hour.
I missed that last bit I'm sorry you're at a half hour nap, you're maxing out a half hour.
Yeah, I'd get up every morning I'm up, I'm swimming laps for a minimum 40 minutes every morning. So I'm getting good exercise I'm outside of my I don't drink, I don't do drugs, I get generally about eight hours sleep. Generally,
when you awaken in the morning.
I not a real happy camper. Been on my most, most of my images and whiffs of thoughts and most of my activity related to dreaming right now is in that last two hours.
Yeah, which is perfectly normal. Awakening,
anxiety, there's a lot of anxiety in it, in the dreams. Yeah, yeah, a lot of frustration, anxiety, which makes sense to relationships and stuff that's going on in my life, but yeah. And I'm recording all of that.
Yeah, so. So the big thing about whether or not you want to know what you do want to know whether or not you have apnea because of course that's what it sounds like. But it sounds like you're also a very active 70 year old, you're keeping yourself busy, but if you weren't, you could fall asleep and you could fall asleep for two hours, and you're sleeping eight hours. So if you're sleeping eight hours, it can still nap during the day, most likely you're having non restorative sleep or disturbed sleep in some way something is, it's probably apnea, that'd be my first concern. So you need to you need to realistically assess your daytime function, you can say you know when he asked you, are you busy during the day are you able to do all this stuff do you nap during days you know only half an hour and yeah I'm swimming laps. He's not gonna ask further probably I mean he might, depending. But you say, but I used to take two hour naps, even though I've been sleeping all night. That's the one thing,
right, although the my, I'm aware that I, my nighttime is not, I mean it can be disrupted. Like last night, I listened wanting to talk to you said don't have a clock nearby. I'm hiding my, my clock now. And so I have no clue how long I was really awake last night, and I woke up and being pretty grouchy, feeling like that. That wasn't fun.
So the other thing is how is it changing, are you saying now, not only are you snoring and you didn't used to, but you're waking up and you're waking up for longer periods and night. Yeah,
yeah, I tried to, I try to stay in bed, I mean there's some times I'm just up like keeping all the lights off, but just sort of walk.
Are you keeping a log.
I'm keeping a log, and I've been, I've got more details now from the log you presented today. I'm going to I'm going to reconstruct Yeah,
that could be the most helpful thing you bring into the dark okay. And when you look at it yourself, you can look at it yourself, look at it over a week, and say, How much sleep in my averaging at night, perception wise even you know like, yeah, okay, you know. And then, and then if you were still sweepy, even though it's closed seven and a half to eight and you're still sleepy, then that's a sign that sleep isn't doing what it's supposed to. And the second part though, you know, this could be a medical reason to get the full Monty, and that is if you have hypertension or uncontrolled hypertension, if you have new onset hypertension. Any cardiovascular symptoms that you didn't have before. Almost any other medical issues that seem to be cropping up and that are almost, almost happening at the same time as the snoring began or give or take, you know, a few months even because these things take time. Because apnea can contribute to all these different systems right it increases the possibility of diabetes. All kinds of cardiovascular events. Just nothing good. So, if
I'm supposed to see the cardiologist next week, so I'll have that appointment before we just did full workup blood workups. Okay, good to have that information before I see the sleep doc.
Yeah, yeah. Okay so carry all that in because, you know, sleep can be underlying, a lot of whatever's happening in the daytime, both physically, mentally and physiologically. Okay, great. Thank you. Good questions. One last question anyone have
one last one. Is there a way that we, they can access the log that you shared earlier,
I can. Elisa Can I send those to you, and you can put them up somewhere. I'd be happy to do that.
Yeah, shoot me an email, I can. I assume probably put them in the nightclub community. But I will find out for sure.
Yeah, or how I don't know if you can link it to this we'll put it in, I don't know yeah I don't know you figure that out, but that's what we'll be okay. I won't get to have another webinar right after this too. But tomorrow, most likely, hosted under the recording. Okay. All right, we'll figure it out. All right, everybody. Thank you. Absolutely, thank you so much for being with us today. Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure always good questions and no forget to report back let me know how things are going okay.