Arizona Christian Univ. v. Washington School District with Len and Tracy Munsil

5:29AM May 2, 2023

Speakers:

Scott

John Bottimore

Luke Allen

Len Munsil

Tracy Munsil

Keywords:

biblical worldview

culture

acu

people

tracy

students

worldview

arizona

christian

teachers

university

god

work

shift

christians

church

pandemic

faith

world

research

Where to engage as long as we're here? Where do we engage with God's truth? There's nowhere in Scripture where we're called to go hide in a bunker and hope that the, the culture doesn't hurt us. And maybe it'll turn back if we just pull out. I mean, I don't see how that works, but

you know, we're called to engage

Hi Friends, Welcome to Ideas have consequences, the podcasts of the disciple nations Alliance, where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations. But our mission also includes to transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of our mission. And today, most Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as we rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Well, welcome again, everybody to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. And I'm Scott Allen with my teammates here, Dwight Vogt, John Baltimore, Luke Allen. And we have a couple of really special guests today that I'm excited to introduce to everybody and to get into some conversation with Len and Tracy Munsell how you guys welcome to the podcast.

Well, thank you morning. appreciate the chance to be with you. Appreciate the work of disciple nations.

It's such an honor. And just for those of you who don't know, Len and Tracy, I will just give a quick introduction. And you guys can certainly feel free to add to this. This whole. There's a lot I could say. But Dr. Len Munsell is the sixth president of Arizona Christian University, a third generation Arizona, and he has a common accomplished record as an attorney, a public public policy expert, a conservative entrepreneur, journalist, and educator. Len is a published author of a book titled transforming culture with truth, I love that title Lin. And in 2006, he ran for the governor of Arizona won the Republican primary and gave a good run for the money to the Democrat who eventually prevailed in that race. He's earned his Juris Doctor degree from Arizona State University, Sandra Day O'Connor college of law. And as I was reviewing you guys's bio this morning, this is the part that I got the most excited about, quite frankly, that both of you have eight adult children and 18 grandchildren. And you are a homeschool family, which I love. And we certainly share that in common. And Dr. Tracy Munsell is the executive director of the cultural research center at Arizona Christian University, and she is the editor of the ACU press. She is associate professor of political science at Arizona Christian University. And if I could just mention that my daughter Jenna went through that program and studied under Tracy and I was amazed, Tracy at the quality of that program. I kept saying to Jenna, you need to get as much out of this as you can. I think this is the best political science program for Christians in the United States. And I say that, not that I know all these programs, but it was just such an incredible education that you gave her. So anyway,

and I would just say the privilege was all mine. Jenna is a terrific student. And we see so many students like her who are really called to have influence for the kingdom in our culture, a gentleman's obviously delightful and great to have in class. And thanks for the shout out and the kind words about the program.

You know, Jenna, if she's teaching today, you know, she's a teacher now, but I know she would love to be on this podcast. And so she's gonna I'm gonna hear about that later. But anyways, just a little bit more about Tracy. She is also the chairman of the board of directors of voices for the voiceless. And we just had Josiah on two weeks ago, I think on the podcast and so we're huge supporters of Josiah that work as well. Tracy So thank you for your service on Yeah,

just update that a little bit. Um, I have just stepped down from the board as of this year in my replacement is the interim chairman of the Political Science program here Dr. Tom Campbell. And so he's going to be taking the the voices of the voiceless into the next phase of its growth and influence. So it was it was a great opportunity to to work with him. Next Generation of pro life leaders?

No, that's great. You know, it's amazing to watch that organization grow and just expand its influence. So Lynn, I just want to congratulate you on your leadership at Arizona Christian University. Maybe you could just tell us a little bit about it, it seems like things are going really well. God's hand has really been blessing the school right now. And it's growing. And I think more than grow just physical growth, you guys have really had to navigate a tricky time for all Christian universities, just because the pressure of the culture to you know to shift into to, to adapt, or whatever it is to conform, you guys have really stayed strong. And I just Well, thank you for that. So Well, I

appreciate that. And, you know, absolutely, it's a, there's a ton of headwinds right now against, you know, small colleges, generally, but especially Christian colleges. And by God's grace, we have managed to grow substantially through that. And we're actually percentage wise, the eighth fastest growing university in the country right now.

No kidding.

We started fairly small, but we've seen incredible growth. And especially since we had the the miracle of a campus exchange, where we ended up acquiring a campus, that's three and a half times the size of where we were before, three and a half times the educational, you know, classroom space, the parking the residence hall space, etc. So, and then through COVID, I mean, it's, it's been, it's certainly been an interesting season. And I said, a lot of the trends and trajectories in higher ed, there's very few small colleges of any stripe, that have grown as we have grown. And, you know, we believe that's a god's grace be, but we also believe it's because of our mission, that we're committed to speaking the truth to our students, and basically not going along with the lies of the culture right now. And, you know, we all know the areas of you guys have certainly been speaking into as it relates to, you know, a biblical view of sexuality, which is as somehow increasingly controversial today, and in a biblical view of of it individual rights, I guess I'd say, a biblical view of personhood, and relationships and race that you know, that is, is not aligned with the direction that the culture is going with, with things like critical race theory and Marxist philosophies that have inundated even the church. And so we're kind of out here as a as an outpost in Arizona, but uh, you know, drawing students from 41 states and 33 countries. And just as we've heard with your daughter, Jenna and Josiah and some of the other people that were turning out of ACU over the last few years, as we've shifted our, our direction from being kind of a, you know, sort of a typical, you know, Bible college, into a Christian liberal arts university with a clear vision, to transform culture with biblical truth, and to do that by preparing leaders, from the body of Christ to serve in all of the areas, the spheres of influence in our culture. So it's sort of a unique mission, we're really the only Christian college that views things in exactly that way. And we have a core curriculum that uniquely combines a study of the classics of Western civilization with full biblical integration, to prepare students that will have the ability to think and to speak and to write with a strong biblical worldview in a way that they can become leaders, whether it's in business or government or education, or the media, or ministry. That's what we're trying to do at ACU is to turn out leaders from the body of Christ for the broader culture, not insulated, not, you know, bubble wrapped inside a, you know, a bunker as the culture gets worse and worse, but but leaders that actually have the ability and the courage to take a biblical worldview into a hostile culture and to do it with excellence. And so that's that's really what we're trying to do here at ACU and, and it is kind of unique and I believe that's one of the reasons that we're we're that we're growing right now.

Well, thank you for your leadership. Lana and Tracy, both of you guys. It's been really terrific to watch and to see your your deep commitment to the Lord and just the way that you've steered that organization to remain truly committed to the truth and to a biblical worldview and to bringing that into the culture. ACU is made to headline news is now nationally and even internationally recently, you guys. How about that? Yeah, you guys are, we're catching you to an incredibly busy time. And so for that reason alone, thank you for being with us. There was a prominent is a prominent North Phoenix school district that recently said that it would no longer hire teachers from Arizona Christian University. Why did they make that decision? Can you tell us a little bit more about that? And Tracy?

Yeah, I mean, fundamentally, it's actually I encourage anyone, there's a lot of places online, you can find it now. It's the Washington Elementary School District. And there's, there's a video of the board meeting. Where, unbeknownst to us, they took a what had been in place as an 11 year agreement for our student teachers to teach and to shadow and to do student teaching and, and cooperated in other ways with the district. And they pulled it off the consent agenda so that they could specifically discuss it, and specifically decide to terminate the arrangement and it will no longer go forward with with the contract with our students. Now, keep in mind that of the 33 elementary schools, all of the principals of this school signed a letter urging the board to reverse this to not do this. So our student teachers are desired. In fact, all we've ever heard is we want more ACU student teachers, they're amazing. They love our students, they're wonderful, they're respectful, they're, they're great teachers, we need more of them. But recently, there was, you know, an election for the school board where some folks got on with a pretty clear ideological agenda. And, you know, for me, as a constitutional attorney, I haven't I have never seen such a clear, a clear and such an egregious constitutional violation, they did not even pretend to base this decision on anything other than the fact that they didn't like the religious faith of our students, and in the end of our university, and so they said things like, they weren't sure that now keep in mind, they're elementary school. So this is, you know, K through sixth grade, that these school children might not be safe around our student teachers, because our student teachers, believe what the Bible teaches about human sexuality, and that marriage is between a man and a woman. And so it was extraordinary. I mean, it is, and I think that's why it caught national attention. Because it was such a blatant example of religious bigotry. And, and in that, you know, that immediately got the attention of people at the national level. Of course, I started hearing from my colleagues all around the country. And basically, all of whom have similar student teacher agreements in their states. And in all of them have, you know, not all of them, but the ones I was hearing from have similar statements of faith that are required. You know, that, again, you know, I've been trying to explain to people too, that the First Amendment does two really important thing is, you know, is it like I said, is my, in my experience as a constitutional attorney, it does two things that allows us to form churches and schools and universities, according to our conscience and our religious faith and our religious beliefs that allows us to teach and to live and to hire, and to admit students according to our, our faith, which is what we do at Arizona Christian University. And at the same time, it protects us from government discrimination because of that faith. And that's exactly what you have here you have a university that stands for certain biblical truths and teaches them and lives according to them and sending student teachers out and then you have a big a public body, the school board, which represents the government which is required by our First Amendment to be neutral when it comes to the religious faith of its employees and who had contracts with and and very clearly saying because of your religion, you can no longer aren't your students are no longer welcome to the Student teachers here. And ultimately, it's a loss for the children of that district and really, for the district, if the if it was allowed to stand. And so like I said, I've heard from people all over the country saying you can't let this go. Okay. So tell us it's gonna affect all of us.

So So you are being encouraged to respond by challenging and it's Yeah, tell us about you know, how you respond to this and kind of where it stands now.

What was initially because we heard from almost every religious liberty, you know, organization in the country offering to help and, of course, right here in Arizona we have Alliance Defending Freedom Yes, which is the largest of these organizations. And so ATF attorneys are representing us in federal court in a challenge. And where we're at at this point is that we, we filed a motion for preliminary injunction, they filed a motion to dismiss, and the judge has consolidated everything into a trial that he's already scheduled for May 24, and 25th. Next month, and so a very short timeframe. And, you know, there's all kinds of possibilities of things that could happen before then. But, you know, we, it's really clear that you can't allow a government body to essentially pick and choose, you know, faith of the people that would work, they're the people that would be associated with it. And so, so, we have no no way of knowing whether this will be resolved quickly, or whether this will be a multi year event activity. But we we intend to fight to vindicate the rights of our students to not be discriminated against because of their religion.

And, and I would just say, just on the ground, I'm not involved in the in the case, specifically, but I do interact with a lot of students, and they're watching closely to see and are embolden and get encouraged by the stand that they're seeing the university take. And so that's been interesting to me, that's kind of my perspective. And so so not only are there the national stakes, and, and all of those things, but just our student body is watching and really encouraged. And I know they're, they're praying through it and, and they're trying to navigate the same world that we are, and we're just a little bit further down the road than they are in terms of our walk and our experience. So from that perspective, it's really important. Well.

Hi, friends, thank you so much for joining us today. If you're new to the show, welcome. We are so happy you are joining us. If you'd like to learn more about ideas have consequences, the best way to do that is by tapping on the link in the description below this episode, which will take you to the episode landing page on our website. You can also find this show by searching ideas have consequences on pretty much every major podcast streaming service out there. If you're like me, and you're curious about the legal proceedings between Arizona Christian University and the Washington Elementary School District, we have included videos from multiple news stations reporting on the case, and articles from our friends at Alliance Defending Freedom and World Magazine in the episode landing page. On that page, you can also find a link to join ACU and prayer for the school board members, the ACU student teachers for the lawsuit itself. And for our country as this will most likely just be the first of many disagreements between Christian convictions and our culture as it's becoming increasingly post Christian culture. before resuming the episode, if you could do me a favor and hop on the podcast app that you are currently listening on, and leave the show a rating and review and share this episode with your friends. That would be a huge help as we try to reach more people with the show. Thanks, again for joining us, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode.

Yeah, we really we were talking before the podcast about kind of what we'd like to talk with you folks about and obviously to the details of the case. But that's the very issue, you know, how do we as Christians navigate in these times? And I'd really love to kind of hear more of your thoughts on that. You know, you talked about religious neutrality land and how it's in our Constitution, but we've seen just so many shifts in the culture, you know, over the last, you know, 2050 years. And those things are under so much attack right now, you know, some people would say, We're gonna post constitutional era right now, you know, we've lost ground on so many of those things. Yeah, I was, yeah, I was talking to some folks on the elder board at my church about your situation. And I was using that framework. I don't know if you've heard of Aaron Wren and his framework of the positive, the neutral and the negative world. Have you heard? Have you heard that? Yes. A little bit. Yeah. And I thought, you know, it's such a, you know, this is such a clear example of kind of negative world, right, you know, in positive world. And for those listeners who maybe haven't heard this, Aaron Wren said that you can kind of trace three different phases of what it means to be a Christian in the United States or in the West, largely, you know, in the course of, let's say, my lifetime, prior to somewhere in the 80s. It was what he called positive world. In other words, to be a Christian and the culture was seen as a very positive thing. These are honest, hardworking people, moral people, etc. And then from the 1980s to somewhere around 2010 we entered this kind of phase of neutral world where the positive kind of side of it wasn't some He emphasized but it was just, you know, kind of, as we moved into kind of postmodern thinking, hey, you believe what you believe, I believe what I believe, and it's okay, we can kind of tolerate each other. So it was kind of neutral. But then starting around 2010, somewhere in that frame, it kind of shifted again, it became negative and, and, you know, the negative, I think came about because this neutral world, of course, isn't really tenable. A new religion kind of has kind of taken ground, you know, embedded itself, if you will captured is the phrase a lot of people use captured a lot of our institutions, including institutions of education, and it's not neutral, it's not religiously neutral. It's, it is openly hostile to hostile Yeah, hostile to Christians. And so that's kind of the world that we're living in. I just think it's such a clear example of that. Whereas, you know, in the earlier times, people would love your teachers, and then it was like, we'd like your teachers in the neutral world, you know, sure. We can take them we can take other teachers too. But now, we don't want your teachers right, you know, so

Well, this is the school board members actually, you know, describe, first of all, they they read from, you know, our mission, you know, that we're we're here to glorify Jesus Christ, and to serve Him, ego and all things. And I thought that was great, because God's word never returns void. So it was nice to have that read out loud. And then, and then amplified through all of the national media coverage that we got, yes. We started getting inquiries from students and donors all over America, because they didn't know about us. And then they they heard what we stood for, and said, Oh, wow, that sounds like a kind of university we be interested in. So. So that was positive. But But yeah, they I mean, they, you know, they, they then went on to say that because we hold the beliefs that we do, were a bigoted institution that they didn't want to be associated with. So I mean, it's pretty, I mean, they weren't beating around the bush, like I said, they didn't, they didn't try to even come up with, you know, other reasons to terminate the agreement. They basically said, No, it's based on their religion, we don't like their we don't like what they believe if they were Christians that were embracing of the LGBTQ community, then we then they'd be okay, that that kind of faith would be okay.

Now, that's, that's they're speaking very clearly from their worldview, you know, this, this kind of worldview of Cultural Marxism, which sees Christianity or let's say, the Christian sexual ethic as oppressive, and it's, it's impressive, it's impressive. It's injust. It's, you know, it's it's evil, right? In their worldview, because it's oppressive to, you know, the transgender community, gays, lesbians, etc.

Well, and that, that brings out an important point in this from our perspective, which is we call for our community, to pray for the school board members, you know, for their safety, for their protection, for their wisdom, they're not the enemy. And I actually shared this in chapel last week, that according to their worldview, their what they're doing is right, they believe that what they're doing to discriminate against us is right, because we're, we're the evil people. Because we hold to this biblical ethic, on human sexuality. And so so we've, we've got our community praying for them, we, you know, we, obviously, we're, we're going to, you know, as, as Paul did, in asserting his rights as a Roman citizen, we're going to assert the rights that we have, but we want to do it, you know, in love in, you know, the goal is that our, the rights of our students would be protected. But then ultimately, you know, even that we would see a shift in the way that, you know, the school board members would view Arizona Christian University, and what our students, you know, who they are and what they do. And again, it really is just the school board. It's not the district itself. It's not the teachers. It's not the principals in the district, it really is just this board. But we're, you know, our, we'd like to see their hearts and minds changed. And we certainly have kept them in prayer since the beginning.

Yeah, I was so encouraged to hear that unanimity of the 33 principles that you said, which just not only demonstrates the fact that you're on great legal ground, but the preparation you do for the students and how well they perform as student teachers and how well they perform as teachers and how much they're loved and appreciated in the schools. Is, is fantastic. And that, again, is comes from the excellence that the roots of their faith, call them to, in whatever sphere of life they go and serve. So it's a wonderful demonstration of that. And I know God will use this in positive ways.

Yeah, thank you. And you know, it was interesting. There was a story in the Arizona Republic this week about another a school district that is now working with ACU to get our student teachers in there. And the quote from the superintendent was, I don't remember what he exactly what he said, it's in the Arizona Republic article, but it was along the lines of, you know, when other school districts, you know, loss is our game. And, and, you know, and so, if you don't have an animus or a bias against the Bible believing Christians, you're gonna see, you know, the excellence of our students. Dr. linea lighting has been doing some of the media on this. And she's, you know, a teacher who has family members that have, you know, that have taught in that district for many years. And she's just a great spokesperson for she leads, she's the dean of our Shelly Roden School of Education at ACU and does a phenomenal job, and that our education program is highly respected in the community and in the state. So like I said, this was a bit of a bit of a shock, and then sort of an an outlier. That came from a handful of board members, as opposed to, you know, the, the the teachers in the district and the principals in the district wanted more AC students not not to end the contract,

step and talk a little bit about the Dwight, you probably want to get this in place. I do you know, how did those board members get get into that position? We were reading a little bit about this, because you're right, it doesn't seem like it's a grassroots movement of support for putting people like this on that school district, it seems like there's a lot of top down, work on strategic work to put them there. Go ahead to

the families of Washington School District elected them. So what is that telling us about the culture? Or what do you what do you How does that Yeah, well, I would say a couple of things. You know, the classic is that nobody votes in school board elections, because they you know, and so what that means is that a small, active constituency can make a big difference. And so whether that's Christians, on the one hand, as we've seen, in many school districts, when Christians and conservatives get engaged and say, Hey, we're, this is crazy stuff happening at the school board level, let's elect our people that that a lot of times is successful. In the same way, in this case, you have three of the five members that openly identify as part of the LGBTQ community. And it's pretty clear that they targeted this district and said, We want to run here and we want to get a majority. And then, you know, from our standpoint, it's like they were searching out, you know, ways to be provocative on behalf of their ideology. And so, you know, the we have had nothing to do with any of the responses. You know, we've, we've responded as we've responded, but we have not, we haven't organized any protests, we haven't organized the letter writing campaigns. And yet the subsequent board, that school district meetings have been inundated with parents, and teachers in the district who are outraged at the decision. And none of that was ginned up by ACU. I mean, we, we literally have, you know, we did what we did, by going to federal court, but we've not been a part of the political movement that has arisen just from outrage families in the district, and parents, and in some cases, teachers and administrators within the district who've expressed their you know, frustration, disappointment, anger, in some cases, with the, with the decision that was made, and I suspect that the next election will be a lot more competitive. Yeah.

Go ahead, Tracy. Yeah, and I think you do see a similar kind of wake up, wake up call going out to parents generally nationally, that they better be paying attention to what's going on in their their kids schools, I think the pandemic, with with bringing the schools and the education into the home opened the eyes of a lot of parents. And so you're seeing shifting in K through 12, you're seeing lines waiting lists at Christian K through 12 schools and parents looking for alternatives. So you know, it's kind of like the beginning of a wave of parents really recognizing what's going on and and, and paying attention to these places where the other side with with it with a different worldview different than agenda as seeing these seasons, easy pickings. And, and parents are wise to that now, certainly the parents in this school district, and then anybody who's watching, you know, how this case is, is unfolding. So that that's actually in some ways. The parents are paying attention now that's really encouraging in terms of what may happen in the future in K through 12. education in America.

Yeah, I feel like you're it's, it's this instance here is kind of it's, it's, it's, it's, it's like what's happening in some ways in the culture at large, you've got this very committed group of people that are advocates of this, you know, far left woke ideology that they've been active for a long time, quite strategic, you know, there's a lot of money behind it, to put people into positions of power and influence in all sorts of places in the culture, especially educational, including school school boards. And meanwhile, the rest of us have not been paying much attention to it. And now it's just kind of breaking into public awareness like, whoa, what's happened here while we weren't paying attention, but I feel like it's kind of it to me, the hope in that is that this is, again, this isn't being these changes in the culture aren't being aren't being driven by kind of the popular voice of the people. It's being driven by a very committed, I would say, very strategic and very heavily funded group of activists that have really gotten, you know, they've had some success and putting people in positions of power across the culture. But seems like the majority of Americans really aren't with them, you know. And so that's, that's the positive thing, I guess, the hopeful thing. I would love to hear a little bit of your thoughts on how, you know, I can imagine that there was a variety of ways you could think about responding to a situation like this. One way I can imagine would be, you know, hey, the schools in the United States that public schools are kind of too far gone, they're already captured by this ideology. Our teachers are no longer wanted, our Christian teachers are seen as the problem in that kind of school system. Let's let's just not even try to fight this. Let's focus on preparing our teachers at Arizona Christian University to teach in Christian schools or alternative schools that are that are open that are wanting, you know, what, you know, who we are. So I could see that being, you know, one approach. And then there's obviously the approach that you took, which is, hey, you know, we're going to we're going to fight this, you know, we want to continue to put our teachers into these public schools. You know, how did you guys wrestle? I'm thinking of a lot of Christians in the culture that are wrestling with how do you respond, you know, this negative world? How did you guys wrestle with that and come up, come to your, it sounds like you are getting a lot of encouragement from friends and colleagues, but just personally, how did you wrestle with that?

Yeah, I think I think you're right. That is that is part of the conversation that Christians are having to think through today. This was, like I said, you know, as a constitutional attorney, this was a no brainer for me, there is a constitution, we have rights under that constitution. And you need to think for a moment about the broader implications of of, and this is certainly what we were doing the broader implications of basically, the, what was the basis of their decision, the basis of their decision, was that, essentially, we don't want student teachers that are part of a university that holds to this view of marriage as being between a man and a woman. If you boil down and set aside all the rhetoric, at the end of the day, from from a legal standpoint, that's the decision that was made. And think about the implications for that we have I think, 17 current ACU alumni, who work in the district full time. They're sitting there going, Well, I graduated from that university, a B, I may be a member of a Bible believing church right now, that teaches that marriage is between a man and a woman, does that mean that my school board thinks that I'm unsafe to be in the classroom, and that they could terminate me because of that at any moment, and then apply that nationally, and think about the implications of that perspective. So, so number one, you know, we felt like we were obligated to stand up for the rights not just of our current students, and future students, but also our graduates. And also, frankly, you know, it could be it could be a member of a mosque, or a synagogue, any form of, you know, Christian denomination that holds to a, a, essentially, biblical understanding of marriage is between a man and a woman, that basically the school board was saying, if you hold that belief, or you're part of a group that holds that belief, you're not safe to work with our kids in a in a public setting, and this is a government body. So so we felt strongly that, that this was this had to be something that we that we took on in court in an attempt to vindicate these basic constitutional rights. I would also say just from the standpoint of us as a as a university, we have many students in our education program who feel called as followers of Christ to be light in the public school system, and many not just the ones in the Washington School District. But you know, one of the one of the students that I heard from You know, by text when this all happened, who was so upset, is a, a young man who, who serves, you know, he's a, he's the head of the FCA group. And he's a math teacher and a local high school. In a public school, he felt called by God to go into the public schools, as a young African American Education graduate of our school, and a follower of Jesus to be a light in that setting. And he's so proud that we are standing in the way that we're standing and that we're trying to vindicate the rights of people like him, who feel called by God to go into that world. And you know, the love of Christ shines through and in the, the excellence that you pursue your teaching, and in the way that you love the students. And you know, and then there's opportunities, obviously, with groups like FCA outside of the traditional class structure, but in the public school system to be open about your faith in Christ. And he's one of many of our graduates that felt called into that into that world. And, and the thinking behind the decision that they made, although it only applied to future relationships with ACU student teachers, the mindset behind it would have very broad application, that would be clearly discriminatory from a First Amendment standpoint.

Well, I just really applaud you guys for the decisions you made, all of that makes complete sense to me land and you know, the decision that, you know, went through to support you know, not just future teachers, but existing teachers in those places. And, and then obviously, you're just clear passion to see the gospel ministers, the mission statement of Arizona Christian University to see the gospel, the truth of the biblical worldview, change the culture, you know, we have to be in the culture. Have you gotten any pushback from certain parts of the church that, you know, I know, there's, there's an element of the evangelical church that kind of doesn't like any talk of engagement and culture, they feel like it's kind of a waste of time, and that, you know, this world's going to hell. And it's, you know, let's, you know, our job is to simply preach the gospel, get people into the churches and into heaven. And have you have you ever heard anything from from that crowd?

Periodically, but honestly, that's one that we take head on, just in our mission as a university, and, you know, with with scripture, and, you know, we're called to be salt and light, we're called to seek the welfare of the city. We know from Scripture that when the righteous are in authority that people rejoice. And when a wicked man rules, the people groan. So all of that calls us as followers of Christ to engage. And, you know, there is a, there's a mindset among that setting in among people of, you know, our generation and older. That, you know, we've been, and this is I know, we want to talk about George Barna, and his work at ACU through the cultural research center with Tracy, but, you know, he's been chronicling this decline over decades is basically our entire lifetime, we've only gone backwards in terms of, you know, Christ and at the at the center of culture. And our perspective is very much that we're to engage as long as we're here, where do we engage with God's truth, there's nowhere in Scripture where we're called to go hide in a bunker, and hope that the, the culture doesn't hurt us. And maybe it'll turn back if we just pull out. I mean, I don't see how that works. But, you know, we're called to engage. And with respect to, you know, if you've all you've ever seen as it get worse, it's easy to think that that's, inevitably we're headed down. And that's just not true. It's not true, biblically, it's not true historically. You know, biblically, you have the example in the Old Testament of Israel, the people of Israel, were constantly being reminded of who God was, he was doing miracles, and it was all great. And then as soon as any hardship came along, they would turn away. And you know, next thing, you know, they're, you know, having orgies and worshipping, you know, golden cows and everything. And, and, and so then what happens, you know, God brings judgment, and the and they repent, and they come back and there's the public reading of Scripture and and that happened over and over again. So they're the cycles that we see that occur. And so we see that biblically, but we also see it historically. And and, you know, in the history of Western civilization, multiple times where, you know, there's a falling away from since Christ Cain, we've seen examples of this, where there's a falling away from biblical truth, and then are returned to it. And we saw one of those I love to give the example of Great Britain, Great Britain in 1700 300 looked worse morally than the United States does today. Yes, it just did. I mean, if you go back and look at what was happening at that time, churches were empty. You know, gambling, drunkenness, addictions were high in morale. When he was prominent in the, you know, not not just in people's personal lives where you know, nobody was getting married people just live together. But in the in the popular media of the day was was all body and offensive and into that God sent an awakening. And it started as I share with our students, it started with a few students on a small Christian College starting to pray. And then they began, began to go out into do evangelism and the highways and the byways of Great Britain. And then that spilled over and some of them even came over to the colonies of America. And that led to the biblical foundations at the beginning of our country, all that to say that when you looked at Great Britain 70 or 80 years later, then we get into the Victorian era, where gets made fun of now because they were so prudish, sexually, you know, from from in terms of, but they turned back to a biblical view, they abolished slavery, they begin to recognize the dignity and worth of every human being, the whole culture changed. And so how do we know that God doesn't have that, in fact, I believe he does have that for us, as a nation, and but it doesn't really matter whether that happens or not. We're called as followers of Jesus to continue to be solved in line to seek the welfare of the city to seek positions of influence in our culture. And that's what Arizona Christian University is here for.

I so love that you brought that example up, we use that a lot in our ministry here at disciple nations alliance to we, in fact, on our website, there's a monograph that's called England before and after Wesley. And I would encourage everyone listening to go to the DNase website, and just well, you could just Google that England before and after Westley because it is such a powerful example of how God can bring about a change in a culture and see a culture transformed with truth. And, you know, it's, it's, it's really important that we keep that perspective and that hope I think, alive, not like you say, not that we know what's going to happen, but that it can happen. And our job is to be faithful Tracy, we're gonna say something.

Yeah, and I would say, obviously, that's on on an institutional level, but as as a, as a, as a believer in this culture, there's a lot at stake in terms of whether you're going to hunker down and do nothing, or whether you're going to stand up for truth. And, you know, we're in the grandparent generation, and we look at our kids and our grandkids, and I'm sure a lot of your, your listeners are in that place. And you're like, really, we're just going to stop, we're just going to turn it over. And so from a very practical level, you know, I just did or gone off, remember, he was, you know, standing up against the Nazi regime. And he wrote very clearly that our obligation is to leave the world better for those who come after us, no matter what that looks like. And so, from a personal I, you know, I know, it's, it's discouraging, it's, um, it's frightening, it's that some levels, it's overwhelming when you watch what's going on in the culture. Um, but, you know, God is bigger. And, and we can do our part. You know, not everybody's called to run a university, but everybody has people that they can interact with and strengthen with the hope of price and the truth. And so there are a lot of ministry opportunities, no matter where what God does in the future. I mean, I, you know, that's, to me, I hear a lot of the discouragement and so the story about what happened in, you know, in, in Great Britain, what happened in the Great Awakenings here, and it's the same God. And so, you know, to kind of help people just to see the bigger picture. And keep in mind, the stakes and it's put it this way, I think we'll all regret if we if we hold up and don't do anything. I think that that's really not where where we want to be.

Yeah, I hear I hear a grandmother's heart. They're looking at those 18 grandchildren. And I listen, I'm a brand new grandfather to Yes, just had his first son. Yes. And I had those. It's pretty, it's pretty powerful. And you get to that point, because you sit there and you look into those eyes and you go, what kind of world is this one gonna grow up in and, and it does kind of radicalize you in a new way.

You know, you know, in the, there's a pastor that talked about, you know, hey, as Americans, you know, we were used to be in the home team and you got the proud for you. Calls are going your way and everybody's rooting for you. That's kind of what you described, the positive view of Christianity. And now we just got to get used to being the road team, you know, where the calls are going our way. The referees aren't really fair and the crowds booing us, and I'm thinking, I want my kids and grandkids to grow up. As the home team, you know, where Christ is at the center of culture because as we know, that's better for everyone. It's better when you know when when you have virtue. You In business, when you have leaders that are trying to serve and not, you know, enrich themselves when you have, and you know, all when you have media and Hollywood and arts and entertainment that is glorifying God and lifting the human spirit rather than tearing it down, it's better for everyone. And I want to, you know, that's what we're in it for is we want to see the next great awakening. Because we want for our grandkids, that's the world we want them to be raised in not not a world of, you know, dystopian, nightmarish, you know, scenarios where they're, you know, running for their lives, you know, as Christians. I mean, we've, you know, in the history of Christianity, we, you know, we've experienced all of that. And, you know, what, even as a nation, what we should be doing is trying to help these other nations where Christians are still, you know, subject to death for believing in Christ, we should be trying to set them free, not becoming like that here. And so that's, you know, there's a battle and we're, we're in it. So,

so tell us how the cultural research center is going to do this. Great segue Well, what you know, what is the tell us what that is? And sure, sure, hope to have. Yeah, absolutely. And, and cultural research center is the think tank, the biblical worldview, Think Tank. For Arizona Christian University, we started in 2019. So we're, we're in our fourth year, the CRC was founded by Len and myself and Dr. George Barna, and his wife, Nancy. Um, it's kind of a unexpected, I kind of reconnection with them. Back in the summer, early summer of 2019, we had a university event in California. And Len, and I had known George and Nancy since the 1990s. In fact, we used his materials when we were home, SAV, educating our children. That's where I first developed a heart passion for biblical worldview and really understood kind of the place of biblical worldview thinking not just biblical integration, which is, which is part of it really starting with a biblical worldview for understanding the world. And so that's we were connected to Georgia, Nancy, back then he came and spoke at one of the Center for Arizona, Center for Arizona Policy events and got to know him and then became friends and then kind of just drifted away, they were doing their thing, we were doing ours. And that turned out at this event that George was the keynote, one of the keynote speakers for this event in California. And over the course of that weekend, we met with George and Nancy, and we're talking about what ACU is doing and kind of his vision for, you know, biblical worldview and his research and from there, that just led us to start the cultural research center at the time was perfect. And so that's that's where it started from just a reconnection kind of, we call it full circle, friend of our friendship, where God connected us and then brought us back together for this particular time, in the body, in the nation. Because all of these things that we're talking about, really go back to the loss of biblical worldview, or whether it's, you know, the issue of marriage, the sanctity of life, understanding the economy, how the Constitution works, all of those things. Go back to the the issue of thinking through a biblical lens or from a biblical worldview perspective. And so we think that to your question, what is you know what CRC is role in this, it's really to give a nuts and bolts understanding of the faith landscape, the worldview landscape in America, and then use that research to equip like minded ministries and organizations and churches and individuals who share this vision of returning biblical worldview to the center of American culture, to give them really good data, and then help develop resources to do that. So that's, that's who we are and where we started.

Tracy, tell us a little bit I've been reading some of the research that George has been doing through the cultural research center of Arizona Christian University. I know some just recently came out. And I was just looking over the survey of that, but what is surprised you, Tracy and Len, both from from the research that you've seen so far, come out of of the work that's been done there, that you're doing there? Well, I

definitely want to touch in a minute on the research that we just released. Dr. Barna has been doing this social science research for over 40 years, but specifically in the area of biblical worldview. For more than three decades, he really is the one who first measured it and studied at so he, he, he's the leading researcher in the nation, if not the world in terms of understanding biblical worldview. And so your question, kind of, you know, when you've done it for that long, whenever anything surprises, Dr. Varna or George, you know that it's surprising. And so we are, one of our main studies that we do every year is called the American worldview inventory. And we started that in 2020. And I'll just give you a couple of surprises, kind of over the last few years that we've been doing it for surprise. It's not really a surprise, I think, intuitively, we all knew as we were watching what was going on, in the faith landscape in our country, is that something was wrong. The foundation was was shifting and shaking, there wasn't what it was. And so the first kind of surprising, aha was in that 2020 survey where he looked at the worldview of American adults biblical worldview, and found that only 6% of Americans have a biblical worldview. And, you know, you look at and go, Well, we know it's low. But that gave us a really good kind of baseline. And it is surprising and how low it is. People still say How low is it? And so that was the first surprise the next study was okay American worldview and before Tori 2021 If not the biblical worldview than what is the dominant worldview of American adults and I know disciple nations alliances and other people who have studied worldview and are and understand kind of the science and the study of worldview. We have the isms kind of the competing worldviews secular humanism, or naturalism, nihilism, Marxism, moralistic therapy is post modernism. We started all those ago, okay, we'll look at those and figure out which of those is the top worldview, if not a biblical worldview, there must be one of those. And so probably the biggest aha moment came when we found out that the dominant worldview of American adults is not any of those. It's something called syncretism. Which means that people pick and choose from all these competing worldviews just a little bit here a little bit there, and kind of cobbling together into this, you know, hyper individualized, personalized view of the world. Some of these ideas can be in conflict, they complete completely at odds with one another, but it doesn't seem to matter. It's a, it's a hybrid, cobbling together of all these different pieces, to help people make sense of the world. And so I think, when we were talking through the study's results, 88% of Americans, that's their worldview, um, and so they're not thinking in a systematic way, they're not putting things together saying, this makes sense for my life, it's really subjective. Maybe they take something from a movie that they like, or something that they've heard little bits of marks. The analogy I like to use when I talk about syncretism is imagining going into a room with seven tables. And each table has a brand new puzzle that's been dumped on the table, each of these tables and people walk around, and pick a handful here, another few here, come up with this bunch of puzzle pieces from all these different worldviews and then try to put them into a hole. But there's, there's no coherent picture that arises, there's no guide for it. And that's how they're living their lives. And so I would say that that was one of the big aha moments. And when you look at syncretism, it makes sense, when you look at the fragmentation of our culture. So if the biblical worldview doesn't hold, which it did back in the 50s 60s, if if that doesn't hold if there's no basic sense of truth, then what feels good what works in the moment, what you know what, what might be pragmatic or practical. So they're taking those ideas and cobbling them all together into this kind of personal life philosophy and I think is you're interacting with, with people who don't have a biblical worldview. You see that very clearly in terms of you hear a little bit of everything. in how they view the world, I'm so not surprising when you put it in the context of our culture 24/7 media, all these media messages, and nothing coherent to, to discern through it and compare it to, like a true system. You can imagine how difficult that would be a counter that 270 was my next question like, Well, how do

you yeah, that's, that's one of the things I think that came out that George talks about is it's you know, if, if half if the half the country had shifted to Marxism, we would know how to combat that, if they'd shifted the secular humanism, we know how to combat that. But because it's it every, every blend is somewhat unique. It's very difficult. And then I think the thing that's hardest for me is kind of a modern thinker, not a postmodern is to is to hold. You see people holding views that are incompatible with each other. And it doesn't seem to bother them. It's like, and basic logic, it's like, wait, you if you say, A, you can't say B, but they do they say A and B, and C, and none of them connect with each other. They don't make sense if you try to they ran into each other. But you see that happening, more and more. And, and today's, you know, the most people seem to be comfortable living in a world where they have views on things that collide with each other. In essence, I think

it's, I think, in some ways, it is kind of a coherent worldview. What gives it coherence is that it puts the person the individual at the center, there, they are the ground of reality. And somebody explained it to me this way, it helped me a lot. They, they were kind of talking in the shift of Western civilization over the course of a couple 100 years. And they framed it pre modern, modern postmodern, in the pre modern world, the Bible, right had authority God, God existed in His Word had authority. In the modern world, God was seen as a fairy tale, right, it's kind of a holdover of the Dark Ages. And now, science kind of replaced God as the as the grounding of authority. That was the thing that held things together. And you still see kind of echoes of that with Dr. Fauci saying, I am the science, right? And but now in, in this shift to post modernism, it's not, you know, God or the Bible, or it's not even science. It's what rod Dreher calls the sovereign, autonomous individual. Right. That's, that's, that's the grounding of reality. And yeah, they'll pick and choose, but they're, they're at the center of it, you know, so.

Right. Right. And it's from a ministry perspective, you know, just from a Christian perspective, it doesn't hold, it doesn't worry. Oh, right. Yes. And so. So that would be the pressure point, or the Fisher point, when you're interacting or engaging with with people, which is most people around you, you know, in terms of when it when it doesn't work, where you can't just pull something from culture, and try to paste it over, you know, a major life problem. And so

it's one of the it's one of the reasons, it's one of the reasons that I think that we, that we put truth at the center of our mission and vision at Arizona Christian University, is because ultimately, you've got to draw people back to that there is a truth that is applicable to all people at all times, in, in that it comes from God in the Bible in was, you know, turned into a person in Jesus, we've got to draw people back to that, because, you know, it's very difficult to get them, you know, otherwise it sort of becomes transactional, you know, you if your can your faith helped me, you know, does it help me, you know, feel better about myself, then I'll look at it, you know, but this part of your faith doesn't look good to me. And so I want to dismiss that. So we've got to get back to a place where we draw people toward that there is a truth and and make the case for that ultimately,

amen. No, I totally agree with that. And Tracy are saying it doesn't work individually, because it's just so incoherent. I would also argue it doesn't work kind of socially, well, relation or culturally. In other words, not everyone can define reality for the culture, there's going to be some belief system that's going to undergird a culture or some belief system that's going to undergird institutions, whether they're educational or governmental. I mean, you can't have every buddy's so it's not sustainable. It's going to shift towards something, you know, and then it's just a power game. Like who's got the power to? Yeah, to to put their belief system in place. Yeah. So yeah.

And I would say the, you're starting now, it's only one study, but um, Scott, you already mentioned it the research that we released just last week. That was the first national study of worldview since the pandemic so what did the pandemic do? To the worldview of American adults, and there, you saw some probably, again, a surprise in over a dozen. So there were 40 different beliefs and behaviors that were measured. And then over a dozen of them, there were statistically significant shifting in religious beliefs and behaviors. And this is highly unusual, rare in terms of adults, changing their views in about a three year period beliefs and behaviors. In the area of religion. Religion is a hallmark of constancy in an adult's view of the world worldview, constantly, you know, consistently, you know, right, or true in the case of a believer, but religious values and beliefs don't change that rapidly. And so that was a big surprise in terms of seeing that the effect that the pandemic had on American adults religious beliefs and behaviors on both for the Bible, or biblical worldview thinking, and, unfortunately, away from the biblical worldview, among born again believers. So a lot of challenges. There a lot of opportunities, for example, movement toward biblical worldview and beliefs. There's a significant drop in the number of Americans who reject the idea of absolute truth, from 1/3, down to 46, up to 46%, say, rejected the the idea that there's no absolute truth, on similar shift and those who reject the belief that salvation can be earned through good works. From 45, to 35%. A rise in the number of adults who believe that the purpose of life is to know love and serve God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, number of American adults in about a three year period, statistically significant increase, and also in behaviors. And this was interesting, significant growth increase in adults who believe sexual intercourse outside of marriage is morally wrong. So among Americans, just in that three year period, since the pandemic that was up 11 percentage points, and another positive shift in that area, a six point increase among those who say, lying to protect your self interest is morally wrong. So shifts toward kind of biblical thinking, that will who worldview beliefs and behaviors, the question is, is that going to hold was that just because of the pandemic? Or is it an opportunity, which I think we should see it as such, to begin and to move into those places and culture and start, you know, expanding the case, and, and, and pointing to why those things are true, not just that they instinctively have shifted a little.

If I had mentioned a couple of things, there's no word about out of time. First of all, if you want to see that data, I would direct people to the cultural Research website, which is cultural research center.org. Or you can also find it at the ACU website, which is Arizona christian.edu. And then the other thing is, Tracy highlighted some of the positive changes, I think some of the most significant, some of the biggest negative movement was in the area of behavior of people who identify as Christians, their level of commitment to their faith drops by like 38 points or so you've got the data in front

of 3530.

But very significant job and then just participation in attending church, post pandemic, about 15 million Americans have have stopped going to church post pandemic. And so those are some significant declines that, you know, there really like as George said, you know, adults don't change their religious beliefs that that much unless there's trauma, and so clearly, the pandemic was in the lockdowns, and all of that created a high degree of trauma among many American adults, and it affected their views on things and it affected their behavior.

So we've gone through, oh, go ahead. Yeah, we've gone through a pretty shocking three years, or arguably maybe that first year and a half of 20 and happened to 2021. No doubt. So it'll be interesting to see what happens over a slightly longer period. But what does that say about us? What does that say about the church as believers? Were Yes, it's been a hard period, but we're not going through the kind of suffering and persecution it many, many believers are going through and have gone through for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. What does that say about the church and our ability to endure suffering and persecution? And and what what might we learn from the global church? That is doing that? I mean, that's where we get to the DNA because we have such a wide network around the world and what can we learn from them? I have a thought on

the trace that you may have the same Yeah, you can go

Yeah, I My thought is the the foundation was is fairly shaky to begin with, if you can peel. And these are born again believers defined, not self described, but believe that they're there they have salvation only through the death of Jesus Christ on the on the cross so so they're born again believers, but they're, they're shaken in their idea of whether or not they have a God given calling unique to them. Their commitment to practicing their faith, so, you know, hit a little bump in the road. Obviously, the pandemic was was unprecedented in terms in terms of church closures and things like that. But what you're seeing is really kind of a shakiness. In the biblical worldview, generally when I was talking about syncretism, just as one example of kind of a data point that shows the shakiness of the foundation in the church, syncretism has invaded even the pastorate. We did a study of parents and pastors last year, and 62%. In a sample of Christian pastors. Their dominant worldview is syncretism, not the biblical worldview. And so you're seeing in the church. And this obviously, is not all pastors, but our research from last year is is interesting in terms of understanding the spiritual health of church pastors, and, and so a lot of areas, opportunities and challenges that can be addressed through biblical worldview training and teaching and discipleship. When we define biblical worldview, it's basically thinking and living like Jesus thinking and acting like Jesus, having a biblical worldview is being a disciple of Jesus. And so those things, it's, it's a guide to us or a wake up call for us to put those things in place to begin discipling. And I think we see that probably in the international church. That emphasis, I'm not you guys could speak to that. But I think that's one of the things that's missing is discipleship.

Well, I would say to Tracy's point, I think what the data, if you if you peek into it, I think what it's showing is that is there's there's a remnant, there's a remnant and a core, but there may be a lot of people that were comfortable identifying as Christians and maybe even shared some of the theological beliefs. But as soon as they got punched in the face a little bit by what's happening in our culture, and with the pandemic, and everything, also, they weren't so sure that they really believed it, or, you know, if they're really going to, you know, live out their faith, or whether their faith really had answers. I think that's I mean, you know, we know that anecdotally, with people that we've known through our lifetimes that in our, in our own lives, frankly, when when you get unexpectedly faced with a real challenge, or a loss or a disease or something, where there's a moment where you really have to think about do I really believe this? And how will that affect my attitude and my response to whatever thing is coming my way right now. And I think, you know, a lot of Christians in America have never really had to grapple with that the way that Christians in other nations have had to. And as a result, you know, I'm not sure we held up so well.

You know, the one that jumped out to me as I was skimming that last night was the I think, I think it was the biggest Delta was the idea that God has a purpose, a unique purpose and calling on my life, I have something to do in this world, that God is God given this kind of area of missions and purpose. There was a huge shift, I thought it was the biggest shift right from people believing in that to people no longer believing in that, that that one just really stunned me. And I thought, you know, already even before the pandemic, I thought the church largely was doing a really poor job of teaching, especially our young people that that yeah, they you know, they are they're saved for a reason they've got a purpose right to be a part of God. It's big redemptive plan in this world, just like you guys are talking about. In your mission statement at Arizona Christian University, you've got a role to play. It's a unique role. I just feel like we've already been doing such a poor job of that kind of narrowing down the Christian message to salvation and escape, as opposed to kind of mission and purpose. And now I'm like, Oh, my gosh, we really

Yeah. And just to layer one more statistic on that, and we did a study of millennials, and just to have a new book coming out, called Helping Millennials thrive, but 75% of millennials, so the next generation of parents, um, in, you know, in the workplace, so they're out of college. But 75% of them say they lack meaning and purpose in their lives. So it's endemic in our, in our culture, in terms of, you know, what, why am I here? What's my meaning? What's my purpose? And, again, challenge but a great opportunity to be sharing that.

Absolutely. And there's nothing there's nothing richer than than the Bible for answers to that question, that fundamental question in life. And I would say, that question of meaning and purpose is almost as fundamental as food and water. I mean, you just need that to live. And you can't get any richer answer to that question than you can get from the Bible. But we're just there's a gap. We're not teaching it, you know, and so people don't know. Yes, you know, so,

Tracy and Lana, in, in a glimpse of hope, similar to some of the other statistics that you said were, were up it was, it was interesting to see in a previous release on the seven cornerstones that the Gen Zers were actually better than the millennials. And in all, in some cases, they had more of the worldview cornerstones than the slightly older people in their 30s 40s and 50s. So, you know, God, God speaking, and God can use these things to really transform that was a surprise for me to see that we're not necessarily in an automatic downward trend.

Yeah, and I would say, this wasn't a surprising thing that came out of the research. But it was the thing that's most helpful is over four years of doing the American worldview inventory. Through CRC, that's what came out was, if you have the seven cornerstones in place, you're much more likely to have a biblical world. And if you don't, if you don't have that in place, you're it's almost impossible to have a biblical worldview. And we have these on our website, I just wanted to correct where cultural research center.com. But we're, we're working on resources that will go with those seven cornerstones. And if you have a biblical worldview, you look at him and go, you know, there. It's not rocket science, it's basic theology, if you look at him, close on, but we're looking at that, as you know, what's a good starting point for parents grandparents, taking a biblical worldview starting to shape that in the next generation, or anybody that you work with. And for example, the first one is just having a biblically orthodox understanding of God's existence in nature. And there are six more that are very similar in terms of this basic cornerstones of the biblical worldview. So that was a really exciting thing that was confirmed in the last four years of research. So we're excited

to get to John, to your point. I think every generation reacts in some way to the generations that are ahead of it. And so when we just came out with a major book, on millennials, based on all the research that George did on on Millennials last year, that's available on the website through Arizona Christian University Press. And, you know, when if you're a generation Z or younger person, and you're looking at millennials and gone, well, gee, more than 50% of them have mental health issues of anxiety and fear and depression, and 75% of them don't have any sense of meaning or purpose. How's that working out for you? That's, that's not great. And we don't really want to we don't want to replicate that. And so the Gen Z, maybe they're looking for something more substantive, more real. And I think that's where, you know, again, that's where the opportunity is for an awakening. awakenings always start with young people, and then spill out into the broader culture. And I think they're seeing the emptiness of their, you know, older siblings, in some cases, even parents. And that it's that whatever the worldview, the syncretistic worldview that's predominant, is not leading to a happy, fulfilled, productive life in and that's the opportunity that's always the opportunity for the gospel is when when people are hopeless. Yeah, anxious and lost. The gospel has fertile ground.

Yeah, well, thanks on that positive note, land, I think maybe we should begin to wrap it up. This has been such a rich discussion, I think we could probably talk for hours, you know, it would just be easy to continue to talk. I just want to thank you guys both for the work that you are doing, and just the passion and the clarity that you have for the calling that God has given you at Arizona Christian University. And at the cultural research center at ACU. How can people support you, especially given the action that you're undertaking in the courts? I'm sure there's needs that you have, what can we do to kind of rally around you and ACU at this time? Lynne?

Well, I appreciate that very much. And just even the prompt, forgiving, I mean, you know, the reality is small colleges are struggling, and that the tuition and fees we collect, don't cover everything. So we have to raise money. And especially in order to grow, like I said, we're growing really rapidly, and we want to get, we want to make college as affordable as we can for our students. Our main website, Arizona, christian.edu, there's a gift page, we actually have a half million dollar matching gift going now until the end of the fiscal year, June 30. So that's one of the huge ways people can help us. And obviously, just to pray, and not just for Arizona Christian University, I have a vision for a much broader ability to influence with more and more, one of the good things about our growth is that we're causing other Christian colleges to look at what we're doing and and to look at the the core, conservative biblical convictions that we're holding on to and not compromising on. And so we'd like to see not just about Arizona Christian university, but we'd like to see many Christian universities return to their biblical foundations, and others to rise up. That could be difference makers, because we need universities like ours, all over the country and all over the world.

Yes, yes. Okay, well, I would encourage all of you who are listening to go to the website of Arizona Christian University, and make a donation on that challenge, Grant, and let's really rally behind these guys with prayer and support right now. Guys, thank you so much again, for your generous time with us today. And just keep up the great work and look forward to exploring ways we can work together.

That's awesome. Thanks for all you guys are doing. Yeah, yep,

take care. Thank you all for listening to another episode of ideas have consequences, the podcast.

Hi, friends. Thank you so much for listening to this episode with Len and Tracy Munsell. As you just heard, you can find out more about them at Arizona christian.edu. And to learn more about Tracey's work at the cultural Research Center, you can see a link to the CRC right there at the top of ECUs website. Also, we're planning on inviting the founder of the research center George Barna on the podcast later this year. So stay tuned for that I'm sure that will be a really fun discussion. As always, you can find all of the resources that we mentioned in this episode, as well as the discussion transcript, shareable social media posts, and more on this episode's landing page, which you'll see linked in the description below. Ideas have consequences is a podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry you can find us on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube or on our website which is disciple nations.org. Thanks again for listening and have a great rest of your day.