My name is Tim Vegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education and you are listening to think inclusive a show where with every conversation, we try to build bridges between families, educators, and disability justice advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education, and what inclusion looks like in the real world. You can learn more about who we are and what we do@mcie.org I'm here at the circle of friends coffee shop in Woodstock, Georgia, recording my intros and outros for the month of June so apologies for the background noise. Roll crowd housing has been working in the internet and media world for more than 15 years as a disability rights activist, and founder of the nonprofit, social Hilden, or social heroes. He's a communicator, a design thinker in the internet is his second home, where he Twitter's blogs and posts about things that are important to him, often humorous, and sometimes very serious or sharp tongued. He has best become known for his invention, we'll map a crowd sourced online world map for accessible places, as well as his undercover stay in a group home for people with disabilities and his protest against various German laws affecting people with disabilities. Here's what we cover in today's episode, if there is a difference in the mindset of Americans and Germans when it comes to inclusion and accessibility, a little bit about rule and how he got involved with the disability rights movement, and what inclusion means to him, and how he's been promoting inclusion in Germany. Before we get into today's interview, I want to tell you about our sponsor together letters, are you losing touch with people in your life, but you don't want to be on social media all the time. Together letters is a tool that can help. It's a group email newsletter that assets members for updates, and combines them into a single newsletter for everyone. All you need is email. We are using together letters. So think inclusive, patrons can keep in touch with each other groups of 10 or less are free and you can sign up at together letters.com. And now my interview with Raul Krauser. Roll crowd housing. Welcome to the thinking cusu podcast.
Thanks for the invitation. I feel very honored to join this podcast because I'm a big fan of your work.
I appreciate that i i always don't always know who is reading and listening. So that makes that makes me very happy.
I know your pain. Because in Germany, I'm running a lot of podcasts and writing newsletters and blog articles. And I don't know who is reading it or if anyone is reading it. But I feel I feel really, really, really glad that you invited me. And yeah, I was I was wondering, a few weeks ago, I was asking myself, How can we get a more international perspective on what can we learn from other countries in terms of inclusion, because I have a feeling that every country has his own struggles. And maybe we can learn from each other's?
That's a great point roll because I've talked to a few people. I just interviewed someone from Australia and talked to a number of people from Canada. And I think we all think that everyone else is doing better than we are Germans the same Yeah. Well, I'm trying to remember how I learned about euro I think we connected over Twitter. Yeah, make listen right. Yeah. But I don't know why.
Only twittering in German. I don't know how good your German is. Is a translator from from Twitter. Now, translation gets better and better. That's how sometimes I read your articles because I'm not so used to English. English words for professionals when we talk about education. But in general, I agree 100% When When you read something, and that's how I came to you, because I'm writing a newsletter since five years nearly about inclusion And I'm looking not only in Germany for for ideas and projects and use, but also in the United States. And so I can do your newsletter.
Well, I am I am 100% sure that your your English is much better than my German.
Yeah, I studied two years in English. But yeah, I never made a good good at school. It was just by doing
that amazing. Well, let's talk about inclusion role. It can mean different things to different people. So why don't you talk about what you mean, when you talk about inclusion, kind of see, if it's different than the inclusion I'm talking about.
I would say inclusion is a ride for everyone to take part in everything, which doesn't mean everyone can get an astronaut. But they can become an astronaut, because of course, you have demand for it. And maybe you need some physical skills, which not everyone has. But maybe to get as near as possible to become an astronaut. That should be everyone's right. And the only reason why it doesn't work should be your decision. Because you're experienced, and it's not possible because it's too hard for you, or whatever, are too hard. But not because someone else is telling you, it's not possible, you're not allowed to do it. And clueless, it's kind of derived for equality and equity. So there are people who have more privileges and other people, that we as society lead to find solutions. So we get equity in this so that people who will need more support that this will support like people who don't need support. You get, for example, it easier in their daily lives. And yeah, in German, I could expand it a bit better.
No, no, that's fine. I think that I think that what you're talking about is, a lot of a lot of it is access. So access to everything that everyone should be able to access. And your example of of becoming an astronaut, if you want to become an astronaut, you want to meet them, whatever it is you want. There shouldn't be barriers, because someone has a disability or, or a learning difference, or
Yeah, but I would add maybe one, one more thought. Because when we talk about inclusion in Germany, and sometimes the feeling that it's the kind of utopia we are talking about. And so because it's a utopia, we will never achieve inclusion. And that's why we are not starting. And that's a wrong decision. Because we should all for that. Right? We also should aim for equal rights for women, and men. I'm not not saying it's not possible. That's why we don't do it. And when we, when we talk about inclusion, it also means acceptance, acceptance of others. And not only excellence, because acceptance has also been, I might have a different view of that. But I have to accept that you have the same rights as me. And we like to argue or invent in our daily lives. But it doesn't give me the right to tell you you're not allowed. As long as we are accepting the loss, of course, we can also change loss when they are unjust.
I think that I I think what I agree with you that acceptance is a huge part of inclusion. I think that is I think that is something that is exceptionally difficult.
It doesn't mean that we all have to love each others. Yeah. So economic dragons. That's also inclusion. Right to tell me that I'm a big asshole. And I have to shut up when my character is bad, but not because I have disability.
Yeah, I think that's a that's a really good point because I think there's a misconception that inclusion means that all viewpoints are equally. That let me say this again, I think there's a misconception about inclusion, that it means that you have to accept everyone else's viewpoints, and that they're all valid. But that's not what you're saying.
And yeah, and it's not happy land. Inclusion will never be happy land, it will be a place where we can learn from each other's. And money is also hard for it sometimes, like when I learned that I had misconceptions and myths assumptions. In the past, I can learn to get better in this. And it affects everyone. I mean, people with disabilities can also learn a lot from undesirable people. And vice versa. Yeah.
But they're the hardest
part. The hardest part is to accept that I don't know everything. And there will be someone who might know it better. And to learn from that and to accept that.
Yeah, I think everyone needs to think I think everyone, I think everyone would benefit from that type of mindset. Yeah. Yeah. Or the from, from your perspective, when you when you observe or look at the, the cultural climate in the United States? Is it? Is it the international perspective, or maybe just from Germany that we are divided, like, politically and culturally?
Yes, that's a something Germans think about in the United States that the country is divided between two big parties, and a lot of radicals and a heat grab too much weapons, and your houses, way too much weapons. Again, Germany, we don't have so much weapons at home. And most of them don't have weapons, but we also have a lot of Neo Nazis and travel with them who have weapons. And that's a problem in Germany. And, but I am not only looking in a negative way on the United States, because in the United States, your answer will have forgot us big achievements made and the Nikes like the ADA, Americans with Disability acts, I think it's quiet, which got a lot of air more rights and for disabled people, then the Germans have here, now, so you can see everyone, which is not accessible, literally, in United States, not in Germany, we don't have enough for that. So if you if the McDonald's store is not accessible, I can't do anything in Germany. And except it's in a new building, but when the McDonald's stores in an old building, and you can't do anything, and so that's a problem because 90% of our, of our time, we, we we are living 90% of our time in private, private company houses and, and buildings. So it's not only about the school has to be accessible, or the public transport, which is more or less similar, or maybe a bit better than the United States in terms of accessibility. But when we can do the private sector, and there was a lot of really, really bad things happening here. Like, when you want to go to a shop or a store or get a cab and sit in a wheelchair, it's nearly impossible. And you can't get in wheelchair accessible. Tap a tap in real time. You have to order it three days in advance. And that's ridiculous, because that's not the concept of a taxi.
Yeah, that doesn't seem very.
On the other hand, I was I was visiting Canada a few years ago, and I met some people with disability fare, and they told me and that really shocked me that they had to pay for the electric wheelchairs with their own money. And in Germany, we have insurances for pet. So every Germany has health insurance. And if we need a wheelchair, this wholesome health insurance pays for it and Doesn't matter what kind of insurance you have. So, yeah, of course are better and that's a good thing health insurance is that everyone has a right for mobility to guys. And I was once watching the movie from home who was he the thunder off Bowling for Columbine. I forgot his name, though Michael Moore like him? Yeah. And he made a movie about the South Gate systems in Europe, compared to United States. And he came, he went to France, and told and asked people, I will your country, people existing who are fighting against health insurances? What is it socialist are not like the United States are thinking. And a French guy answered him. I don't know what the word might be in French, because everyone has health insurance? And of course, there's no word for that. Because it doesn't make sense. Fight against it. Yeah, that's right. That wasn't very fun.
I do. Yeah, I remember that. I remember some Michael Moore movies.
I went for that. And I don't know what to Google to tell them out.
Oh, we're talking a little bit about the differences between the United States and Germany with regard to inclusion. But I, I learned something about you. I hope that it's true. Is that your parents put you in one of Berlin's first inclusive schools. Is that correct?
Yeah. And I did it by accident. So I don't know what happened. Or what will happen? Because my parents were very young, when I can, when I when I came to it, what do you say when when I when you were born? When I appeared? Yeah, I was born. I was born. And so my mother was 20 years old. And so she didn't have a concept of inclusion into integration. Children with disabilities, of course not. And so she was so unsure what to do, that she met other parents was disabled children. And there was one family was in a wheelchair, two years older than me. And they just followed the steps. And so I am very thankful for this family, that they put their child in through one of the first integration and inclusive schools. And it started with a kindergarten when I was still two years old, I was add together with 15 other children with and without disabilities in kindergarten. And this group of 15 children went together to the Family School. And so as a group in the same class, so the only thing that changed were the was the building, and maybe the teachers. And in Germany, you make six on Berlin, you made six years primary school, and then you go to the back School, which is an analytic College. No, it's not college. That similarities.
Well, you said six, you said six years. Yeah. 6.06 grade two. Well, here we have, we have elementary school, kindergarten through fifth or sixth grade and afterwards and we have middle school,
middle school, okay, so I was in middle school, was the same concept that took the same class and put it in another building in another district, which was an also inclusive and at this middle school, I got the possibility to make my ABI tool which is kind of the highest degree you can get when you go to school. And to get the announced to go to university. In Germany, you go make 13 years school, all in all, well, you want to go to university. If you don't want to go to university, you only have 10 years at school.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, yeah. And I was all the time in an inclusive school and kindergarten, and when I left school, then I found out that this was normal. So that might have other children with disabilities, and to not have fights for their right to fight for the right to go to your regular school. Otherwise, they would have been put in special schools for people with disabilities, which are still existing. And, and that's how I rific, which are growing in Germany, realize Yang get we have a big issue in that, because by jority believe, believes that people with disabilities, leads, they're kind of safe spaces where everyone is caring for them. But nobody's watching, if it really is a safe place, or if it really is good for them. And be concerned, none of studies form a very big foundation in Germany, which every year comes out. And every year they say, exclusion is a problem. Because people went to special schools make and less good. degrees, then people with the same disabilities on regular schools. So yeah, that's a problem. And that leads to exclusion and people with disabilities, that special schools, sooner or later go to work in shelters. Now, what is the word for beginner conducted its flagship working workshops, no sheltered workshops, sheltered workshops, where they don't get the minimum, the minimum wage was worth a lot of time, and are nothing. And that's that discrimination. And United States with the UN Convention for the Rights of People with Disabilities regularly, say Germany that they are breaking laws or breaking laws. Yeah.
Yeah. So the so what I'm hearing you say is, people will go to work and shelter workshops, and they will, they will work for less than minimum wage. Yes. So it's still it's still there. There is. So in the United States, there are some states that have passed laws against sub minimum wage, but there are still some states that allow it.
Yeah, yep. In Germany, every, every state, has this shutdown work. And the minimum wage, Gabby, count or double the people who work there, don't get minimum wages, because they are not employees, that your reciprocal definition, because people are in worse. shape our workshops are kind of how to say, like prisoners, but that you're not allowed to say prisoners to them? Because that's not the same.
Right, right. They just it just feels like it. It feels
like it and they have less rights and do things and only numbers able people tell them to do. So. Like the CEOs of the sheltered workshops are never people with disabilities. So that's a problem. I mean, it's, it's, it's unjust, it's just unjust.
Absolutely. So you said you went to an inclusive school by accident? What? What about the school? Like, why did they include people with disabilities? If, if that isn't common practice, like what was different about them?
I love this question. They also did it by accident. Because I'm in Germany, weapons situation that every state has this and their own education laws. Of course, there are many BMT same degrees or diploma or whatever. But every state has different regulations. And we have big states and small states and Berlin is a small state. It's a city state. Only Berlin has their own nose. And when I went to school, Berlin was divided. There was a Berlin Wall. And there was was Berlin and East Berlin, and I went in West Berlin to school and West Berlin was the city, whereas the United States, France, and United Kingdom and at least we can Hungary wanted to tell the Russians that their mail is a perfect answer against communism, and sell their product and not have money in here. And there was a lot of very good social and caring certain systems and solutions, and small schools and high schools. And yeah, that that's one part of the story. And the other part of the story is that there was a lot that people with disabilities are not allowed to go to regular schools. That's a Director of School. Well, when did Lau that, so he, he just made it, and it worked. And then when it came out, that seems years, people with disabilities learn together with knowledgeable people, there was a big opera in Berlin. And there was, there was the danger that the pupil had to leave the school. But instead, they changed the law. Because there was no, now there's one missing word, that there could be proof, there was no proof that people with disabilities are mistreated in the school. And so I just had, like, in this situation, the magic at the school maybe also was that we had smaller classes like 15, pupils, and to teachers. And I think that 90% of it, including travel we have worldwide is that the classes are too big. And we have too few personnel to educate them and teach them. That's only it's, it's a drop of moderation. And you need good moderators and delete enough moderators. So everyone is see. And it doesn't matter if you have a disability or not. And it was obvious that I won't play soccer with them. But it was also appears that if I'm not good at math, I'm lazy. And so the teachers treated me in the same way, like the treat treated, the other non disabled people in math. But at sports, for example. They agree that it doesn't make sense for me to make sports. And so a lot of spare time.
Right. Right. That's really interesting that that it was by accident.
Yeah, so how and now in Germany, I don't know if you if you know, one of the most famous teachers in Germany for inclusion, she is called a Yoda Shula. And he's, she wrote a lot of books about this issue, and three on helped my primary school to be better and inclusion, and to really develop this concept. And in Germany, we have a name for its cards and Fleming modal and flooding wasn't was the name of the school. And so as I'm flattening modell out was quasi, it's similar to inclusion in education. So when you talk to teachers and talk about the planning model, this was the school
and you were in you, you went to the you went to a school with that called Fleming? Yeah. So that's a concern. Wow, I'm in school.
And we had five people, pupils with disabilities in our class, and the rest was without disability, which is a big quota, right? Like, they're 1/3. And we had different disabilities on the class. Like, we had someone with hearing aids, we had someone with learning disability, I was the only one was a physical disability or in a wheelchair. And I, to be honest, at the beginning, I didn't identify myself as disabled. Because in math and biology and German, and letters, I was good. And when I when I was only there when I got older, like when sports is more relevant, and when when you have clean party, and it's all about dating and so on. Of course, I realized that yeah, that'd be I'm not the first choice when it comes to dating. And it was really a hard time for me. And I started thinking about my position and as a society, and identified myself for the first time as disabled, of course, I knew I can't walk, of course, I knew that I'm sitting in a wheelchair, they need a wheelchair. But my friends never had proper tribunal problems since then. And he thought I started thinking about my role in this class and identified myself as disabled and learned a lot from other disabled people how they coped and situations. And there was one, one thing, which might be a bit a bit cheesy to tell, but it was really, really a very intense feeling for me, in the fifth grade. The girl was a learning disability, I'm sorry, said very intense and very loud, that now she also wants to learn to read and write. And everyone in our class said, you don't need to read and write, it's okay, when you're done, you can do it, you can learn to go to a grocery store and to buy something you can learn to, to deal with money and numbers. But it's really not necessary that you have to break. But she wanted to break. And she wanted to read because everyone else read and wrote in the class. And after one year, she was able to write her own name. And that really touched me so deep, because I learned from her that if you have to go and you want to reach this, it's more more as possible than you think. And it doesn't matter what the other say, if you really want to do it, try. And of course, you might not be the next literal Nobel Prize winner, that you can write your name, at least. And that's more than everyone else expected. And the only person who knows what you can do and what I want, and whatnot, is yourself and not a doctor, not your parents, not a teacher, and not your classmates. What guys mean? Every question everyone can achieve everything. That's wrong. That was the right support, you can achieve more than everyone else says,
Oh, thank you for sharing that. That was That was great. I'm thinking what put you on the path of what you're doing. Now, advocacy activism, did you know you wanted to go this route, after university.
I never wanted to become an activist in for inclusion rates for disabled people. Because I was thinking that's the same thing I can do for granted every time when I want. Like, if I don't get a job, and I don't know what to do, maybe I do something for disabled people. But I the word was so. So I opened for me and I really wanted to learn so much things, I wanted to go to a radio station and work there, I really add a lot of interest in media and commercials and advertising and communication. So I studied this. And while studying communication, science, and I realized that the conception of disabled people, and disability in Germany is so different from my own perspective, which I never felt represented in the media, I started to get angry. And now I knew how to work in an advertising agency. And so I founded my own one, which is not an advertising agency, but we are a nonprofit organization, working with communication on how can we change the perspective of disabled people in in Germany, and I was thinking since a few years that by by Teranga people that people with disabilities have the same rights, like non disabled people, I will change the world, or we could change the world. But now I realized a few years ago, that that was wrong. It's not about convincing someone else. It's not about telling people enough people that were absent same roads because that's obvious. That is not something I have to teach anyone anymore. If the bus driver nearby doesn't exist. that disabled people have the same rights to drive their bus in the bus, then maybe you should change the job. But it's not his his opinion, which counts. And what counts is less the best robot doesn't take me in his pants, I want to sue him, because I have the right. And so when when we look into the rights, the wearing wearing any rights written down, that are usable of clouds in the paper, in spirit be that group, you have to treat everyone else the same, and so on. Everyone's the same. But in the end, when the bus driver is allowed to say that his schedule might be late when he needs to put out the ramp. And if this ride is stronger than the right for me to get the best, then something is wrong. And daring amount of similarities and other rights, which I've run here. That's why we started to think about how can we change laws? How can we sue companies that to to have the right to sue a company will get the right to sue a company? The accuracy act in Germany a very big one. And since this year, we got this right. And next year, we're starting attacking everyone can get down
knives out? Yes. So is your organization? I don't know if I'm gonna say it right. Is this is social Hildon?
Yes. Under this organization, that's the umbrella. We make all our projects. And this organization I founded 17 years ago,
now. So tell me, there is a project that I looked up, I think it was called we'll map. Right? Is that a current project? Or is there something more current than you're working on?
We have a lot of projects and the world map is the biggest one and the first one at the online map for wheelchair accessible places. Where the idea was that in Europe that to sing in the United States, it's not a big issue anymore. But added everyone will use a wheelchair can share the information on which places nearby are accessible or not. And which started just with our own money, and still our own money. So it's very, very expensive, but still running it since 12 years. But the idea behind that is we want to convince everyone every map mapping producer by Google Maps, Apple Maps, Nokia, whatever you call it, and to use this information, or at least do the same. So we didn't want to work. You know, we're not just wanted to show how this could look like, well, people with disabilities want to know where to go, or where to drive. And now Google launched their own version of that, which is a bit hour ago and our victory. Cloud squeak we had years and years and years with discussions with them. And now they're implemented.
That's fantastic. Yeah, I believe I just heard something about that in the United States about Google. Having that accessibility,
not eBay. Not so we're working on eBay now.
Yeah. Yes, Apple, yes, we need that.
And can we have more projects, you have the project. And I this project built on each other in a way. And we have a project which is quite a broken lifts, where you can see in real time, which elevators are broken or net from public transport systems, and Berlin, especially. And we convinced German Ray and company to open their data about working and not working elevators and put in put those data under an open data standards. And with this data, now Google can work in their platforms. So when you make a route from A to B, the working elevator might be relevant information for that. And that's our strategy. We try to find the data where's the data, and where can it come from? How can we mainstream it and Whom have we to convince And from this project and I regret experts, and in a way for data for elevators for accessibility, and media, media companies from Germany approached us. And I wanted to make reports about me about our company, organization, strategy and so on. But they regularly failed on how to how to write or talk about disabled people. Really, every article started with this bad his disability roll standard, a nonprofit organization, working on inclusion, that it doesn't matter if I have a disability or not. And it's not despite its will, and so on. So tell the people in your article, what the project will map is, but not what my disability is. And we got so annoyed by this situation that journalists were able to, to write non discriminatory about people with disabilities, that we build up a platform that journalists on educate yourself, how to write about people with disabilities. And it worked really well because we started at the Paralympics 2012 in London, and just we just wrote eyespots journalists, Paralympics is your day, when you can do a lot of things wrong. Don't do things wrong, just educate yourself, like here, and can't really was a very good moment for starting. And that's now we are trying to give workshops in media companies on representation. How can we change the perspectives? Why don't we have disabled youth and television show? Yes, magazine. Why is still an inspirational story that has to be taught? When we talk about disability, and the United States in this is at least 20 years ahead? Like we have Peter Dinklage playing in Game of Thrones, and being a sex icon. And it doesn't matter if he has a disability or Matt. And Germany, we don't have this. Yeah. When you will see disabled people on television that talk about disability or sports, but not about caterer not about us. Not about economy, economics or education. Only about problems or sports?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a big problem. And so thank you for telling me about the the information you have about for journalists, because I think that that that is so useful. In I think, in the United States, things are getting a lot better with journalists and covering disability. But it's a it's a worldwide problem. For sure. Yeah.
Let's as the saying, yeah, and as you say, bound to a wheelchair. And in German, you say, and then watch will incessant, which is the same. So if you see someone who is bound on a wheelchair, quite the police, because nobody should be bound to a wheelchair. Because when I when I use a seatbelt, I do it voluntarily. Like when you drive a car, you should do it too.
Right? That's by the police. If you're bound to a wheelchair, I like it.
That educates police men and women on how to treat disabled people? Well.
Yes.
And the United States is a police. When when I see police in United States, I always think on military and military because they have so much weapons and so big cars, and they are look so, so dangerous. In Germany. We are not not there yet. But they're working on it.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm not an expert on on the history of police. But I believe that a lot of that comes from this. The military and police are so closely aligned with how they're run. That yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I guess I was at the at the museum and driving by and there wasn't police car, and there was one policeman sitting in. And it was a very, very, very smart police car. Like a smart, you know, smart, smart cars. And yeah, it was so small that it didn't frighten me any anyway, it was too smart to be frightening. One policeman, what what could he do if someone steals a monument at the museum was inspired? What can he do nothing. That was my top yesterday.
A lot of people that listen, are educators. So elementary, middle, secondary all, you know, from kindergarten up to right before college. And a lot of people listen that already believe that inclusion is the right thing to do, that students with and without disabilities should learn together. But as you're thinking about what you would want to tell them, is there anything that comes to mind? As someone who went through, you know, even if it was an accident, you went through school? An inclusive school, so So what, what would you want them to know,
I want them to know that every child or young person in the class can be also a good teacher for everyone. And I was the one who made the homework every day. Of course, there were a lot of other children who were copying, but when I when I met them, and of course, I can give something back. And disabled people are not the only person who take something or need something, but they also enrich a class in many ways whence, not only in by inspiration, which I don't like, by sharing homework, or by being funny, or by bringing empathy or not. They will people can also be assholes, of course, but not because of the disability. On the other way, there are a lot of money, several people and children will never thought about exclusion. And for the when you ask children do you have people with disability in the class? The answer now we have children. And when when you observe children, how they play, of course, at the beginning, they are curious, they want to know why don't you Why can't you walk, what happened? Doesn't hurt and so on. That's only for a few hours curious, afterwards, say meant and accepted. That that's routed. And now he has a name. And now we can play maybe cards but not soccer. And they invent a lot of games, on how things can work out with disability. When I don't know what is the English word for Hit, hit and run, hit and run, not hit casually run get around finding like like tears play. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, and my disability is a better bones like osteogenesis imperfecta. And, of course, when children are wild, it's a dangerous situation. And so, jagran agreed, and the whole class agreed that the layer of of me in the near of robbery. And there's no wild no one world. So if they want to get some kind of pause to refresh or drink something they can with a button to be because nobody was allowed to be wild in yummy. And but I was in the middle of again. Do you know what I mean? So it's a kind of indented idea of children. And it's not exclusion, I felt very, very included in this play. And when when I remember the primary square, we had four floors in the building and a very, very, very, very, very, very, very slow elevator, which was so slow that you can couldn't use it because the time between two hours of lesson and was to charge to use this Elena from the first to the fourth floor. So The children just carried through them, the stairs up with my wheelchair. And it didn't happen. Anything never ended since in just six years, and nothing happened. And no child fell down with me and I didn't grow, break black or an iron, or something worse. But now if you if I tell this, and everyone would say, but what what do we do when something happens? Yeah, but living life is dangerous life is dangerous. If you don't want something to happen build a better elevator.
Row. That's exactly yes, that's exactly what I was thinking is like,
and we have the misconception on disabled people with disability that they have to be cared for in a special way. Like, no, no overwhelming No, no, not too much pressure. And sometimes, of course, there might be reasons for this, there might be a situation where it's better for me not to be on a wired environment. But if you protect me from everything, I can't learn anything. And I need to know my borders, I need to know which are my real borders, or when I am just lazy. And every child tries to find out if laziness does also work out. So that matter what kind of visibility lasts. And if a child really fails, because he or she led his own border, then the education educators. responsibility is to help add to to overcome this. This feeling of loneliness of helplessness of really bad feelings come up when when you when you beat your borders, where you see everyone else running. And you'll realize for the first time that you will never run. But it doesn't help me to find me friends in a wheelchair. The only thing that really might help is to help you to accept this model.
Wow. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. So the elevator? Isn't. This might be I might be missing the translation here. But isn't your podcast called something about an elevator?
Yes, that tells you one is a stair lift. And the other one is the elevator. The elevator I went had at school was a stair lift, which was this really really slow things. And when you ask the architects, why is this insole slow? They tell you because of regulations. And cool notice regulations. And it's this person ever using this same idea. But I have a podcast which was covered in an elevator, which is a very random moment where everyone knows how it is to be in an elevator and to meet strangers. And to meet people. You can you can ignore. Because you are in a very small room for short amount of time that you have to deal with this situation. And that's the point where I start talking about, for example, inclusion. And everyone has the right to use an elevator. Con, everyone uses an elevator. And maybe the elevator is the only place on us where now it's not the only one. But it's a very good place on us where you can meet random people without having influence who enters the elevator or not. Yeah, wonderful, wonderful. It's like being in a park and have the person in the park you don't like the only possibility you have is to go on another place that you don't have the right to tell someone else to leave the park. And that's the same in an elevator. I love that. That's inclusion. Everyone has the right to ignore each other.
I'm going to remember that the next time in an elevator that I have the right to ignore the person next to me or Talk to them if they choose if they
I mean, I mean, I don't know, if you are in a partnership that I assume that people you were or are in partnership with, you met randomly in a place where you didn't expect to meet them. And when when you sit in the underground, most of the time you ignore each other. But there might be one situation where we fall in love with each other. And that's, that's the magic.
That is magic. So I met so I, I am in a partnership. I have a married, I have a wife, and we met at a we met at a rock club in Los Angeles.
And it was based on interest.
Yes, there. We were there. We actually, I don't think I've ever told this story on any podcast, actually. But so I used to play in in rock bands when I was in college, and my roommate was in a different rock band. And I went to go see my friend and play at this club in Los Angeles. And my roommates girlfriend brought her friends. Yeah. And then and so I met my wife at the at the club.
Awesome. Yeah, it's based on interest. Yes, that's a deficit thing. And you had the interest of going to a park, you had the urge or interest to to use an elevator? And that's another it's a different thing, then, oh, look there as someone that's in a wheelchair, why don't you meet each other and get a date? Because that's not based on interest?
Right, that's based on characteristics that you may or may not. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, is there is there anything roll that you wanted to make sure our audience knew like how to how to get in touch with you.
Yeah, Dad, we had met. And trying to find the right words for that. English. Vocabulary is not in a professional level. But I try. And I don't know how the situation in United States is, but in Germany, we are listening too much to people who don't have the expertise, or the knowledge or the power to decide things. And I don't care what my neighbor thinks about the rate of mobility of disabled people, or read for regular schools for pupils with disabilities. I don't care, because it's not my mission to educate my neighbor. But it's my mission to win my neighbor is against it, to to use my knowledge, that he never gets the right to decide against people with disabilities, in buses, public transport, or schools. And even if my neighbor is the President, I would fight for the right that everyone has the same route through to go to school, or more absent red or blue for mobility. And when we are listening too much to people who are not experts in this or don't have enough knowledge or not, don't have the power. We are really forgetting and missing out those who have just leaning back and weights. And when they really have to change something. Because when when the society is calculating with each other, if people will say you're going to get to the right or to education, yes or no, the politicians would never do anything, because we have never come up with with with an agreement or we will never come up with an agreement. And if we would do this based on on discussion in society, women still wouldn't have the right to vote because it's the people in power at this time when only men and so it's it's not a thing to convince my neighbor, it's a thing to convince the decision makers.
Absolutely. Hopefully we can get more decision makers the listen to this conversation and other conversations about inclusion, Inclusive Education and Disability Rights. Row.
Maybe when we talk about Not in my country, averaging is bad and other countries everything is better. And it depends on what kind of system you're looking on. In terms of education, maybe it might be better in terms of getting an electric wheelchair. Or maybe Germany is better. So we really have to distinguish and differentiate and generalize that in Canada. Everything's awesome. I'm pretty sure it's not that a Germany also
and the United States Yeah. Raul Crowl. Housing. Thank you so much for being on the thick inclusive podcast we appreciate your time.
Thanks for the invitation. It was an honor.
Think inclusive is written edited in sound designed by Tim Vegas in is a production of MCIE Original Music by miles credit, attention school leaders. Did you know that you can team up with the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education to promote inclusive practices in your school or district regardless of your location. MCIE has partners in Maryland, Illinois, Virginia, Arkansas, Oklahoma and more joining us in this work. Our goal is to expand partnerships in every state in the US and beyond. The first step is to start a conversation with us, visit our contact page at mcie.org/contact. And let us know that you want to transform your educational services to be inclusive of all learners. Also, please mention things inclusive in your message to let us know how you found out about MCIE We can't wait to hear from you. A special thanks to our patrons Melissa H joiner II, Pamela P. Mark C. Kathy B. Kathleen T. Jared T, Gabi M Aaron P, Paula W and Carol Q for their support of thinking cluesive Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works
