I'm recording from my living room in beautiful Marietta, Georgia. You're listening to the thick inclusive podcast episode nine, brought to you by Brooks publishing company. I'm your host Tim Vegas. Today I'll be speaking with rescue will the CEO of digital scribbler founder of Hope Technology Group, which started hope technology school, a nationally recognized full inclusion school and founder of EA soccer, an all volunteer inclusive soccer program. I had the pleasure of visiting with him one evening in November of last year, Russ and I discussed the beginnings of EA soccer, and how for all intensive purposes, it happened by accident. We also talked about how sports programs can become more inclusive when everyone has the right attitude and gets training on how to be proactive instead of reactive. Russ even makes me blush near the end of the interview, so make sure to listen to the entire podcast. So without further ado, let's get to the conclusive podcast. Thanks for listening. Joining us today on the thinking cluesive podcast is rescue will the CEO of digital scribbler, which is the creator of communication app quick talk AAC. He's also the founder of hook technology group which started hope technology school a nationally recognized full inclusion school. And also he's the founder of EA soccer an all volunteer inclusive soccer program dedicated to empowering both typical and special needs children of all abilities. Ross, thanks so much for taking some time to speak with us. I'm
excited to be here. It's it's a privilege to be on your podcast and all the think inclusive work that you do inspires me.
Well, thanks, ress you are a man of many hats. That is for sure.
Yeah. I don't know how it happens to me yet.
And so I just read that description. It seems like did you set out to, to start something like this? Or how did how did this happen? Exactly? Well,
you know, I know I did. I didn't set up any of these things. And, you know, my wife probably deserves the bulk of the credit. She's the Executive Director for technology school, she's a real person who put it together old technology group, which I worked with just pretty much, you know, raised the money and, and continues to support the work financially and then in regard to technology. But basically, as a parent of a special needs kid for two who have special needs. I was looking for a way with my sons, my two boys, we have one typical child, I was looking for a way to do something a father son kind of experience with them. This is the mid 90s, mid to late 90s. And I joined some special needs sports, and they were enjoyable, and, and, and my son and I liked them. But having grown up is an athlete and experiencing all the levels of athletics. I didn't realize until I became a parent that a big part of it is it's a family experience the athletics and it's a community experience to do athletics. So what I realized that, especially sports I was involved in, we were off to a different side of the field or the court while everyone else was in a in another place with a typical children. And I that was very different obviously than how I grew up. And I wanted my kids to experience what I experienced which is the complete total community which really now you and I both call inclusion for me is just life and because I was a difficult developing kid and so I came home one day it's it I remember it well and i i I told my wife I said I just don't know how much longer I can do this because you know I'm sitting there and I'm looking and I'm drilling I want my son to be to be with his friends who are in the typical program so his friend to be with him all week long and then they were leaving the time sports and I was like I gotta do sample but I didn't you know what, what was I going to do there was there was either belongs a special need for clean or you tried to be any regular programmer. There's no way you know, he could sustain In the speed, they're moving and all that. And so, long story short, and I'll come back to this, but I reached out to my friends who are all from neurotypical families and with neurotypical kids and Xelement. And I happen to I didn't really realize it, but I happen to have it about six friends who were all high level soccer player for soccer players. And I have been reading and studying because I do that a lot. That's how I tried to figure out what to do next. Because today, as you will know, there's a lot of information for parents with special needs kid. But in the 90s 80s and 70s, even before we came along, and this experience, there wasn't as much, so you had to figure it out. And so I read that East that soccer was more pocketed worldwide. And many reasons it is because I thought soccer was totally boring, you know, you only scored like one to zero. I play basketball. And so I read it. And it said, There's whatever reasons is one, it's not expensive to canvass fifth, eye coordination can factor in hand eye coordination. And I thought about my own kids and how they were and I thought, you know, this could be true. And so we launched them to what eventually became the soccer now, the answer your question is too long winded there. But what happened is, I just got my friends together and said, You know, I really want my kids to experience this on the everybody else's PC. But I had some friends that friends with kids rented out kids, and ended up across the street from our house, or the middle school, getting about 16 of us out there without, you know, you know, XYZ, like 20 of us out there with about six to eight kids. And we just started doing little drills with soccer. And my big vision was, anybody who volunteers with a teenager, a middle schooler, will help them to become really good at soccer. So they can play at a high school level at Lehigh. We want to help the critical care unit special needs kids to develop fine motor, gross motor, whatever we can up with the new development and give them friendships. And as a parent, you get to hang out on the sidelines, like a lot of parents do, and get to know other people and enjoy what really is community experience. So I did that. And it started snowing, and I was happy, my kids were happy. And we had a nice, small group. I think it capped out at 25. And everybody could be there on a Saturday. And then one mother came by and she was like, Hey, can I be a part of this program? And I was not really a program. You know, we don't really have people joining me think about it. I went over to my wife about how many one had people we got it now. I'm not trying to start anything. And she said to me, are you really going to leave this, you know, poor mom all by herself with a kid no help. And I felt so terrible that I said, Okay, I'll let her in. That led to hundreds of more people joining over time for everything I've done the E soccer, the software development, all these things have not been on purpose they've been on. They came by, by necessity by chance. And then I thought it was helping people. So that's sort of the answer that sorry.
No, no, that, that's, that's really interesting. Because like you said, you know, part of what inclusion is, is that community, right? And it really is, it really is best when it's kind of this organic thing that just happens. Because you're not trying to you're not trying to force or, you know, recreate this situation where, you know, typical kids and, and, you know, kids have special needs or you know, put together and just it's supposed to magically happen and it's it was much more organic out of like you said necessity so I think I think in that sense, you know, it was easy to see that as being an authentic, inclusive experience and really not even, like really trying to do inclusion, you just wanted your kids to experience what everyone else is experiencing. You know. So now how Where did it go from there as far as the soccer goes and the E in soccer stands for everyone is that correct?
If not equal as an ad of their own things, but expanded for it stands for and said for the time exceptional. And, and, and in for us it was you know, that was a phrase word at the time that was used a lot for kids programs and and now that he tends to stand for what the person who's attending thinks that we start being stand for Super exceptional. And, and, and and that was because what we were trying to say is this program is different than all the other programs. We can take anybody and we can help anybody have the experience of what we call inclusion Today, what happened is we started at a park. And we started at the middle school across from my house. So many people started joining. And we had to move to a park. It was fairly big. So many of you have coming, that we never need to largest park in a city called Foster City, California where I lived. While we lived while we were working there, we ended up maxing out I think at about 100 225 kids. And these kids were coming from all areas of the bay, some people were driving an hour to an hour and a half to get there on a Saturday because they said there was nothing like it. One of the unique things that happened to me at that time, and we would not have won 25 Was that a couple came walking by and stopped. And they kind of were inclined that he was in charge which nobody really was in charge. But I was sort of the one who got things rolling with as many coaches, you know, into a team effort. But then they were sent to me and they said, Hey, we just wanted to say we really love your program. I said, Are you do you have kids, here's whether or not we have any kids at all. I said, Oh, he was fine with that. They said, Well, we were driving by we were looking for houses, and we kept driving through the various communities. And we kept coming here. And every time we came here on the weekend, we would see you out there. And we thought this is the kind of community we want to be. We want to be in a community that has kids together, especially civil service. So we ended up buying a house right across the street because we loved your program so much. And the city of LA City was great. They didn't even charge us for the field. We became sort of, and we're still there to this day, we sort of became a part of the community. And then suddenly, we're coming from other parts of the bay, we were forced to start other ones just because we felt terrible. We were drafting an hour and a half. Right. So now it's probably closer to about four to 500 kids, every Saturday come to these various programs. We've had college students in a newspaper extensively state word about the program, because the kids who began with me in 1996, seven, those kids are now all college age are nearing graduation, or just graduated. And so they have they launched clubs on the campuses, they went to different ones with the plow. So if they, and a lot of the students in these places targeted versions of the soccer there. So it really is Ben Stein. And along the way, I think one way that the state of California, sort of, and I guess, nationally, they sort of paid attention and a sense of encouragement to the program and hoping it would spread. I was lucky enough to get the Jefferson Award, which was started by Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, and several have sort of read the Kennedy group in an award for community service and work them to effect positive change in the community. And then a couple with that Congressman Lantos in California, the late congressman, he, I thought it was a joke, when I first got the call that he his office tracking hours, I want you to come on in, we want to give you a congressional citation. And I was like, I didn't even know what that was all about. And the guy who called in my office, I was on the road. He said, Hey, Congressman meadows, in his office, they decided to give you a congressional citation. And I thought he was playing a joke on I go, I don't believe this, I mean, not going to get me and it turned out to be true. So I had to, I had to seek a capital. Why did we? Why did you pay attention to me? I mean, what I mean, I'm just that little program here that he said, because these are the kinds of things that make our community better, and what we want it to be. And it only comes from people doing things in the community. I thought that was very telling. And it's a lot like what I've seen you do in your work, which is, is the same thing. The government can only do so much. And money, honestly, isn't it so much people can do a lot. And so it's been thrilling, it's fine to Now there's different ones in Africa, the one in Las Vegas, the first time they held there, they have 400 people come the first day. So that one was outstanding. And we have a number of other cities that are beginning to launch them and wanting to launch them. And the good news is they're all different kinds. You know, the television opportunities had to be on TV and spread around and the web has helped a lot of parents and families decide to launch their own versions. And so that's injuries really rewarding. I've learned a lot. And the biggest thing I've learned is there's something incredible about parents of typical children that sometimes Parents especially siblings don't always know. And that is we, we have so many parents who are typical children who say we want to be a part of that. Because we want our kids to grow up in an environment and a world that's diverse, and where they need to give back and not just always think about taking. And I've had kids as executives that are very high ranking in Silicon Valley, their parents bring them, they say, I got one reason I bring in my kids, because I don't want them to only know this world that we're in, I want them to know, a world of serving and giving. And so it's been very encouraging and rewarding to see all the ways that it's spread, and change locks.
That's fabulous. I want to know about if there's any sort of restrictions on who can participate, I know that that would be kind of interesting, with an inclusive soccer program. But, you know, if there's kids who want to participate that, hey, Noah has some, you know, real significant challenges, whether they are, you know, either physical, whether they're, you know, in wheelchairs, or, you know, or if they have some significant behavioral challenges. Is that something that you work with? Or is that is that planned? Out? How does? How does that work?
That's a really great question. We answered it, I'll answer it, try to give you a little sort of background and how we, how we get our peers how we train it. But, you know, in any all these years, and it's a little bit out of my control, that happens everywhere. So I can't speak for every single program that's called the soccer but the ones we do enter the Bay Area. We've never had anybody that we turn away. And we probably get, you know, fewer people who have a physical disability that is significant. We don't get a lot of kids like that. But we do get some and our attitudes, if I started off with the program, that training, I wouldn't, I was a lot more rigid than the guys are today, in probably that's good. But I wouldn't let anybody get on the field to work with a kid until they train for five weeks. So you had to be on your fine line, watch and learn for five weeks. And then I had physical therapists, occupational therapists and special education teachers who were part of helping to train our coaches, our coaches, August train still, they do it over a weekend now, instead of over a five week period, which is, but in that time, we sort of show them, how do you work with kids who have behavioral challenges. So when a parent, many kinds of parents have behavioral challenge that they assume they're going to be rejected that they're going to try. And we don't do that we we have, usually, of every, let's say, 10 coaches, there's three to four, who are who are experienced and work with kids who have different challenges that they we try to ask the parents to do is let us work with the kid on to the field, and let the parents step back a little bit. Some parents are insecure, uncertain about that. But but our group's gotten to be pretty good. Because one of the most important things I think, when kids come, who may have something in their minutes, that make it appear as though they'll be difficult to work with. A lot of times very difficult to be working with has to do with the attitude of people receiving. And that's what we teach all of our coaches, that if you if you address or approach of the Aikido as naval challenges, assuming he's going to be something jumping in on when he does something that seems wrong, then you're going to you're going to automatic instead of on. So we spend a lot of planning sensory issues direct our folks, a lot of times, getting them to take responsibility, like I do this with my kids, or if he just gave, if a kid has trouble. I try to first question myself, that I approach too quickly, that I not, you know, not know the kid well enough. And I got advice from the parents. And then we'll do things where like we've had place where the kid comes in for the first three weeks, he comes, he sits on the sideline was cheering and work. Then the fourth week, he walks out on the field five or six steps. Then this week, he walks out on the field 12 snaps and kicks the ball. And sometimes it'll take us about three months. And the miracle is and you'll come on that third month and he's out there playing with other kids. So that's kind of how we have a vote channel.
That's wonderful how you are a able to, I guess, convey that to the people that you work with, and that take the time to do that. Give that a, you know, not only in, you know, quote unquote, special programs or, you know, programs where we're students with disabilities, children with disabilities are involved. But in schools, you know, I wish people would take the time to talk with teachers or paraprofessionals, about how to deal with challenging behavior, because, you know, I hear stories, and I read stories, and I see things with my own eyes, that if only we had that background knowledge, you know, we, you know, we would be able to handle those situations a little bit better. And I'd like to kind of transition us from talking about EA soccer, to hope technology school, which you had a hand in, in, in founding or creating as well, is that correct?
Yeah, yeah. I think it was a team effort. And, and my wife, you know, Silicon Valley was booming in the 90s. And we happen to be living here, a number of our friends from all different walks of life. Meaning we're having great success. And I lived to a graduation of a private school. In Los Angeles for free. The miner's daughter was graduating. And it's a very, it's a very exclusive school meeting, extremely well known. And so I was invited, not supposed to fantasize that, hey, you know, I should go and come in. And we sat with family and friends and the speaker in this beautiful campus, high school, school, this beautiful campus is sunny day. I think Leonard Nimoy was there. The number of actors and actresses, Disney executives are walking around, you know, I'm looking, I'm like, I know that dapper magazine, you know. And it's one of those situations where you wander out of here, but I'm sitting there, and then you commencement speaker gets up on stage. And he begins to talk about the school. And he says, you know, when I looked at the school, we didn't have all these beautiful buildings. It was a set of trailers up there on the hill, and everything else was mud. Everything else was mud. And, and it was, you know, being developed to being built. And he said, and that's where the school began. And that's where I learned and he's speaking to all these kids, of course, didn't go through that period, I turned to one of my friends, and I said, you can start a school. I mean, if that's all it takes is five or six straight. And if you can start a school, it never occurred to me before. I came home, and I was talking to my friends, and I go, you know, it's amazing how you can actually start a school if you want to, it can be done. And I started talking to my wife was like, you know, yeah, we had to do that. And of course, the first question you asked us how you pay for anything. It's intimidating because that, you know, I grew up in public education. My kids were in public school. And I was like, How in the world do you do that? Because you see all the infrastructure and you think it's impossible. But then the teacher, by the way, she was one of my first goals. And I said, Hey, Mom, you know, can you start a school? It's not that hard. I said, I know, I can teach kids ABCs. And, and she goes, No, you can do it. And so the game pretty clear that the friends we had, they're like, Hey, let's do it. We'll offer the gym. And we'll be able to raise the money. It's it's doable. We won't people, unit people, let's just talk about it. And we were able to put the money together. And once we did that, my wife, she took the reins and in and developed recruiting the teachers. And she started off with one class that was experimental over the summer, to see how it would go could take an even number of typical special needs kids. And there was a there was an element of elementary school in the bay, that their student population dropped from like that. 32 buildings. And somebody we knew found out about that. contract with them. She recruited I think two or three classes started with three classes, I think, after that summer, and from there, it grew to I think it's K through eight now. And I mean, she's got a set of educators. I mean, I don't have anything to do with the running of the school. But she's got it set up there educators and teachers that big after accreditation there. California accreditation, have recently finished it. And they marveled at what has taken place in health technology school, because they said they refer to as your pair educators are rockstars, because they've got more than a few pair educators who have master's degrees. And they were just son. And so yeah, it's inclusive, that I forget the percentage, I think it may be 6040 50%, typically, especially, it's, it's got, you know, speech therapists, occupational therapists, physical therapists on campus, that work there. Great administration, great parent group. And it's inspired me not really about private education. That currently you've been, you've been talking about today, and what you've talked about a lot about what's possible, when, when teachers and parents get on the same page and work together, and the parents respect what the teachers know, learn from them and the parents and that teachers call from the parents what they know, it's been extraordinary to watch. And I think it's a vision of where education will go in the future in public.
Yeah, I agree the potential that is there, when teachers and parents are on the same page, and that there's, and there's trust that is built, I think that is a big key to what is missing in, you know, when we have when we have IEPs that are, you know, five or six hours long, and, you know, and advocates and lawyers and all this stuff? You know, I've written about that before, you know, that. It's, it's a trust issue, I think. Because if we did trust each other, and if we did have open communication, and we did we were on the same page, then we could go a lot farther. Which sounds to me, like what you're trying to do with hope technology school, you know, and, and also, you starting so small, you know, I think with public education, it's so hard because it's it's such a big system, you know, not just not just district wide or not even just school wide, do you get your district and then you have the state, and then you have the federal components, and no one seems to be talking to each other.
Well, you know, it's interesting, because, you know, the public education system takes a beating sometimes from different places, having grown up in a family with a mother who worked in public school. My dad was an educator, my mom was, I was, I was taught before I got to school. And my view as educators and teachers is pretty, I have a high degree of respect to the Washington lawn, you know, work all day, come home, and take care of us, and then go back and work all day and I went to a suburban school that was going to be part of the community was, you know, it was great. And she didn't, she wasn't going to see what I'm teaching my school. Because she felt he wanted to help African American kids in the inner city community needed to help people out where I was in school didn't really help. And when I when I learned that, and believe now is, you know, when you when you, you get the teacher empowered in the classroom, be able to do the kind of work I know a lot of teachers can do. And they have the support of the administration, in this case, their hope, their life lesson, supported the administration, and on their ideas, and, and then they also have the supportive parents, and everybody has input. It's shown because they are some teachers at the school, you know, they were in the public schools. But it shows me why I saw a study recently where it said that a number of teachers in private education aren't actually making as much money are teachers and public education. And I think one of the reasons for that is, you know, you give a little little bit less money but a lot more freedom and and your life is easier and smoother and you get to see the success of your students. That's attractive I think teachers but I look forward to what happens in the in the classroom. But yeah, when you're talking about three levels when I equated to Apple computer where you got to right here, right? You know, living the shadow that One of the big talk about errors is when you walked in, if you had to make a decision to make great happen, it used to be at a company that that five studies and all kinds of red tape procedure have to walk in and go, let's do it. Let's start now. And in smaller environments, in certain private school environments, if you can just do so much more quickly, because the students that the teachers have the ability to say, hey, I want to do this in my class. And then it is done. They came to me one of the teacher standards and said, Hey, you guys are doing digital Scribbler? Can we get the software in here, and we do that? We talked to people in Apple, and can people volunteer to go from iPads. And I think within, you know, like, seven days at the onset, this is a while back, talk, where they're up and running, things like that, when they can happen, I'm looking forward to that one day in education system, where a teacher can make the call of what he needs to do for students. And he doesn't have to be at the seminary, different layers and different forms. I know, I'm probably idealistic and dreaming, but, you know, it's my hope.
Well, you know, we can all be, we can all be that way, I suppose, you know, I definitely have my lofty dreams, about education, and, in particular, about public education, you know, there is a there is a place for public education, it's unfortunate that we have to work so hard at, you know, getting the things that we want. And it does take a long time, you know, just, you know, we're talking about technology, you know, just as just a little example, but I have a particular software that I use, I'm not going to, you know, promote it or anything, but, you know, I didn't have the updates for the software. It's not like, I can just go and download the updates, you know, I have to have someone else do that for me, you know? Yeah, and, you know, and also, everything is blocked, you know, we don't have this free internet, free rein on the internet, everything is blocked and filtered. So, things in websites that would be of good use, that I can use, I cannot use or informational websites, you know, I can send to my colleagues, you know, they can't see that or read that at school, they have to do it at home. So that gets a little frustrating. So, you know, we just have to do the best with what we have, unfortunately. And
it's complicated, obviously. So I think, you know, the truth is, everybody faces some challenge. But that's part of the reason we wanted to start the different programs we started, it's not as much as a, like, I was happy in the public school system for myself, my wife went to public school for my kids while they were there. But at some point, you want to innovate. And sometimes I think the best way to get things started is have some examples. Some examples of it. Because when you have those small, shining examples, hopefully, they'll eventually have an impact. And that's why I like, you know, I wanted to just, you know, take a moment say, Well, I like what you're doing. And a lot of teachers who are on the ground making a difference. I like what they're doing. Because there's nothing like for someone like me, we develop software, I depend on the great teachers, in both the physical classrooms, in the special education classrooms, the inclusive classrooms, to tell me what they need, I wish I had more time to make more of what I hear is needed. But I think probably, you know, one of the reasons I want to be on your podcasts because of all the work I see you do, and I get inspired when I look at it, because I think you know, we can get in the hands of teachers like yourself and others, the tools they need, and give them the freedom. I think a lot of things to take care of in the education system. I think the hard part is you said is when as long as it's big, it's hard for that to happen. But I use a you may sometimes be plowing away as you write articles and mobilize people like me and parents to contribute and collaborate. You may wonder if it's making a difference than I talk about you. At least, you know, every two or three weeks here with somebody about you something I've read on your site, or you've ended up interacting with someone I know. And, and also with regard to how hard I think you work. And I know you know, that reminds me of work at school. She was she was she was spending my microwave money on her classroom. And I knew it. I was like my mom I'm sure he insisted that if you said to me today, my classroom is going to be the best classroom as far as design and, and inspiration and energy and things that kid's life, if I have to pay for it myself, and then sometimes we didn't get what we wanted, because she said, Hey, I had to get, I had to get closer to my classroom, you have to wait. And, and that's how I learned about public school teacher. So I just wanted to say, well, I want to hear that thank you for what you do. And for all you write, and the way you mobilize, some days, when I'm doing all the different things I'm doing, I think, I can't write another word, I can't do another thing. And I'll see you posting something new we're getting from the writer and that's how I think change happens. I don't, I don't think anybody's gonna watch I listened to four and a half years of work there. And honestly, you guys gonna walk in the door, the White House and change things overnight, it's going to be people on the ground, who are who are in the classrooms, and there are a few people I admire more than teachers. And that are in the classroom interacting. I've encouraged a lot of people to become teachers, because I tell him that I remember, I can name you, my teachers, Mrs. Sherman, in fourth grade, you know, Mr. Wood in fifth grade, I can make profound teachers, Mrs. Young in ninth grade, it changed my life. And, and, and I there's nothing as you're really a hometown driver. And that means I've always been impacted by how much it means to them that I that I've done something useful with my life. So I wanted to say that your thinking piece of work is is is a reason that I wanted to get on here and talk, because I admire what you've done. And all the effort you make the creativity is outstanding. And I'm not sure you get to hear that enough. But I've been feeling that a long time to having read your email. So I thought your podcast would be a good place for me to just interject and say my thoughts nice that I really think what you're doing is even more amazing to you're actually in the classroom, on the front line. And I'm developing software, it's not it's not challenging is teaching kids and negotiating that environment. So thank you for all you do, I want to make sure I said that, thank
you very much. For us, it means a lot coming from you definitely have a have a mutual respect for you, as well. And the work you do with digital scribbler, and also the quick talk AC which actually I have, I have that on my iPad, we I wish I used it more, it's just not something that I'm able to see right now. But I have shown it other people. So it's good, you know, and I like I said, you know, I appreciate those words. Very, very, very much. Yeah, sometimes it's hard to know, a gauge, you know, what kind of impact you're having. When you're a blogger, so but, you know, it's, it's good that I have this kind of cognitive dissonance every time I go to work, because, you know, I'm in this, I'm in a self contained environment. And I have been since they, you know, since my first day being a teacher, but I've always had this inclusion mindset with my kids and even when I taught in, in Pasadena, California, I taught for years in a self contained autism class. So, I would, I would, you know, take my kiddos and we'd go into fourth grade gen ed for a math segment or, you know, we would go and you know, that when I first got there, they wanted to have us go into the separate the, into the preschool playground to play and I'm like, nanananana now we need to be out with everybody else, you know, we need to mingle and you know, we can't, we can't be invisible, you know, and it was a it was a different it was a just a different mindset, you know, and I tried to really, you know, buck the system as far as that goes, and I I continued to do it. And sometimes, you get the feeling like you're you're being annoying
This is the historical truth, anytime changes, is rarely been comfortable for the status quo. And I think that as the world becomes more globalized, we experiences living in a very globalized city and a or set of things by the bay, you have people from all different walks of life, getting out all different languages, you sit in a coffee shop here, you could be anywhere in Europe and Latin America, in Africa, just because you're hearing that in English reminds me that the world is is increasingly getting diverse and those who think that people with special needs or disabilities or any kind of seeing them are not going to be part of that inclusion, I think that can just stay on moral ground. And it just isn't the way to build a healthy society. But it's also a mistake on on sort of creative breakthrough aways. I think if it hadn't been first day, especially its kids. There's a lot of the technologies that are beginning to explode a little bit, that that that people would not have the passion to drive to build, I bet to talk to developers, engineers at HP, at Apple at Google. And I've yet to meet one who didn't become more impassioned about what they were building. Because they found out a child without language, a child was more isolated, was able to make contact with people emotionally, I was able to be included with people socially, because of their technology. HP TouchSmart, I sat in a room with all the engineers who developed and built and designed it. And they were stunned when they found out what we were doing with both political constructions in the classroom using it. So I say all that to say that, when you're on the playground, and you're doing those things for those kids, we need to just do it. Because we're not going to have fewer people that have unique needs or disabilities have work. I know every time I go to the hospital for a checkup, or, or whatever, and I'm walking through the clinic, there's typically in a hospital, there are sick people are pretty sick. And you realize that it's something that everyone is going to need to be included. At. And if we develop a society that completely fit, we have no weaknesses, then eventually, everything is going to be outside of it. So I think when you when I see you out there, you know, pushing to make sure your kids are accepted. I think it's pushing society to say, you know, we can't just say it's only for people who can survive, because they're the fittest, it's got to be for everybody. And there's something we all gain from it. And that's one of the reasons I stay driven is I just think it's not going to work. I was that kind of kid growing up to be honest, I, I have my academics, my sports, my grades, my scores and test, you know, what schools I wanted to go to when I had all that, and I kind of ignored, everybody got to college. And I realized when I was in college that I went from a small town to the city of Boston, I realized, wow, the world is bigger than my small bubble. And that was a process of change. At the time, I had kids with special needs. I had already pretty much bought into you don't just build your exclusive little world, the ones I kicked with special needs. I said, Look, this whole issue of if you have talent, you're great. If you don't run out, that's out the window. I got erased my whole my whole frame and start all over. And I'm glad I did. So when I hear what you're talking about, though, just keep you know, keep that out. Every teacher is guaranteed sad, because society is being influenced every day.
Yeah, well, thank you. I definitely think that you know, speaking from speaking with different people so far in the podcast and other, you know, just conversations. I think that the changing kind of your heart and mind about what inclusion is, is really going to be the thing that's going to change people. Because although research is really great, and in research can be useful, especially in the school system, because they make everything they pretty much make all decisions based on research, you know, but the teachers that are in the classroom that are working with the kids, if, if there's a way if there's a video I can show them, or if there's an you know, an article by a self advocate, I can show them or if there's an example I can give them about how you can include a student with significant disabilities in a typical Classroom, I think those are where the those are where the really big aha moments come. And then, you know, it was the same thing that happened with me when I went into my teacher training. I thought there's no way I could, you know, include a student with severe autism in a general education room, there's no way why why would that ever work? You know, it wasn't until my professors and my, you know, educators that were telling me, actually you can, and this is how you can do it. And, you know, these are the steps. And then once I saw it, I was like, Oh, well, that's not at all what I thought it was going to be, or, you know, or I totally understand that, you know, and, in fact, I remember when I first when I first got into my, my education program, and I was picking like, my classes, and I had, you know, my advisor, she had had mentioned, inclusion, especially for students with significant disabilities. And I was completely against it. I said, No, no, that, you know, they need, they need specialized instruction, they need to be in a safe environment. And I'm just saying all the things that I hear, you know, when I, you know, when I bring up the conversation, and she's like, actually, no, you should, you know, check this out, read this, you know, look at this, and, and slowly, but surely, my eyes were open, and, and now, there's no way I can go back to where, where I was, because I've, I've seen with my own eyes, that it can work. You know, it doesn't mean that there isn't challenges or that, you know, there's certain environments that aren't ready, you know, for our kids, you know, and that's, that's real, that's a real discussion. But, you know, to say that it doesn't work or to say that, you know, it'll never happen, or whatever, that's just, you know, because we haven't seen it yet. So Well, this has been a really great discussion, I want to kind of wrap things up and give me a chance to maybe plug some of your stuff. Like I know EA soccer is moving to other kinds of sports. I didn't know if you wanted to talk a little bit about that. Or if you want to talk about quick talk AC you know, I'm happy to plug that yeah,
you know what I if people want to check it out, they can search for the athletics or, or they can go to my digital scribbler WW, that digital scribbler.com checking it out. But I actually came on just to be able to have a great talk with you have enjoyed the podcast and I want to I No need to, to, you know, advocate for those things. I'm, I'm excited to encourage people to listen to your work and read your work and follow you more often. So that's why I wanted to be on.
Well, thanks a lot, Ross. I appreciate it. If, if anyone is interested, they can check out digital scribbler.com, I believe and then you also tweet at at Digital scribbler, or is it underscore digital Scribbler? I can't remember. Yeah. And then and then you also can Google EA soccer. There's a lot of really great information about that. So thanks again rest for being on the program.
Thank you very much.
That concludes this edition of The think inclusive podcast. For more information about rescue and E soccer you can visit his website, digital scribbler.com or on Twitter at D underscore Scribbler. Remember, you can always find us on Twitter at faked underscore inclusive or on the web at think inclusive.us Visit our sponsor at Brooks publishing.com and receive 25% off your order using promo code TIMB de 25. Today's show was produced by myself talking into USB headphones, a MacBook Pro GarageBand and a Skype account. Bumper music by Jose Galvez with the song press. You can find it on iTunes. You can also subscribe to the nucleus of podcasts via the iTunes Music Store for podomatic.com the largest community of independent podcasters on the planet for Marietta, Georgia. Please join us again on the think inclusive podcast. Thanks for your time and attention You
