Career Paths in LGBTQ Psychology & the Evolving Field of Counseling

1:50PM Jul 26, 2023

Speakers:

Kimberly Balsam, PhD

Chloe Corcoran, M.Ed

Clark Ausloos, PhD

Keywords:

lgbtq

work

research

identities

psychology

people

clients

balsam

trans

counseling

populations

affirming

students

queer

clark

folks

training

person

field

clinicians

Hello and thank you so much for joining Palo Alto University and the Division of Continuing and Professional Studies for our podcast episode regarding the psychology of sexual orientation and gender identity. My name is Chloe Corcoran and I'm the Director of Alumni Relations for PAU. I'm very fortunate to be joined today by our two experts, Dr. Clark Ausloos and Dr. Kimberly Balsam. Thank you both for being here for this important conversation. Now, since I just refer to both as experts, I think it's important to share a bit of your background with everybody as well. So we'll start with Dr. Balsam. Dr. Kimberly F. Balsam she they is a professor in the Psychology Department at Palo Alto University. And she also serves as the Director of the Center for LGBTQ Evidence-based Applied Research CLEAR and of the LGBTQ area of emphasis in the clinical psychology PhD program. She received her MS in counseling psychology from the University of Oregon in 1994, in her PhD in Clinical Psychology from the University of Vermont in 2003. She has a 20 year history of clinical practice in a range of settings, including community mental health and private practice, and has worked extensively with LGBTQ plus clients across the lifespan. She has been conducting and publishing innovative research on LGBTQ plus psychology since the 1990s on topics including trauma, minority stress, mental health, and LGBTQ plus families and intimate relationships. She has led and collaborated on numerous projects to develop and test culturally relevant assessment tools for LGBTQ plus specific constructs. Dr. Balsam has also been active in LGBTQ plus psychology within the American Psychological Association, and is past president of APA Division 44, the Society for the Psychology of Sexual Orientation and Gender Diversity. She is currently the project director and principal investigator for the LGBTQ plus Clinical Academy, which is a partnership with the Santa Clara County in which her team developed, implemented and evaluated evidence based intensive 40 hour cultural competence training for behavioral health providers in the public sector. Dr. Clark D. Ausloos, he him his earned a Bachelor's of Fine Arts in musical theater and dance from the University of Wisconsin Stevens Point in 2008. He traveled across the US performing teaching and educating and it was then he realized his passion for working with people in a deeper way through counseling. Dr. Ausloos earned his MA in counseling with both school and clinical counseling foci in 2017, and later, his PhD in counselor education from the University of Toledo in 2020. A licensed school and clinical counselor, as well as a national certified counselor, Dr. Ausloos has worked in elementary, intermediate and junior high school settings, private practice and in Higher Education. Dr. Ausloos has worked with students at the College of William and Mary as well as at Palo Alto University, and is now serving as Clinical Assistant Professor in the School Counseling at Denver program. Dr. Ausloos continues to work towards making classrooms safe and accessible for students, especially marginalized non dominant populations, like queer and trans youth. And Dr. Ausloos has authored several published peer reviewed manuscripts, has several book chapters in encyclopedia terms in press, and is highly active in research around the world. Through intentional research, Dr. Ausloos aims to empower and promote ethical affirming training and professional practices within the counselor education programs, and within clinical and school settings. So I am thinking we're in good hands here. And at this point, I know I've heard way too much of me, you've probably heard way too much of me. So let's get right into the discussion. So diversity and sexual orientation and gender identity have always been present throughout history and across cultures. In the US, the 21st century has been a time of dramatic strides in LGBTQ plus rights and visibility, as well as a strong backlash currently aimed more specifically at the trans community. So let's rewind a little bit from that moment and talk about what got you both into psychology and counseling and what led you to consider LGBTQ plus populations as an area area of focus, and Dr. Balsam? I'll start with you please.

Great, thanks, Chloe. Um, so my career path has really been a long and winding road with many twists and turns. And I'd like to talk about that in all of its fullness because I think sometimes people have this idea that they're supposed to know what they want to do when they grow up. Like from day one, you know, and I think increasingly there's, there's pressure on young folks. And that really wasn't my experience, like, I really didn't have any idea what I wanted to do. And so I like to share that just, you know, to kind of role model and demonstrate that everybody's career journey is really different. And especially, there are a lot of different things that lead people to psychology and to working with LGBTQ populations. So, you know, starting out as a, as a girl in the 1980s, who had an aptitude for math and science, I was really steered into, you know, a hard sciences engineering type of track. And I started college thinking that that's what I was going to do. But I think in part due to just, you know, the sexism in those fields, and you know, that, like 90%, you know, cisgender heterosexual men in the classes, or at least presumed to be so I just, I didn't, I didn't see myself there. And I also felt like I was much more interested in people than what I was getting there. So then I took a hard turn into the humanities and was studying history, it took some literature classes, but I just really wasn't sure I still didn't really see what the future career path was for me. And I ended up taking some time off from undergraduate, the way I ended up in psychology was really, you know, the way a lot of things have happened in my life that I've just sort of seen an opportunity, and it sparked something in me. So I was literally walking down the street, and I saw an advertisement to volunteer at a domestic violence shelter with women and children, and they were having a big volunteer training, and they needed volunteers. And I thought, well, that looks interesting. So I went, and I started volunteering, and I had shifts where I stayed overnight in the shelter. And I really got an understanding of, of trauma and all the ways it affects people of resilience, of, you know, really, like stigma and discrimination in society. And, and also, I think, I realized that going into psychology, which capitalized on one of the things, I think was my biggest strength, which is talking and listening with people, you know, I'm just like, inherently interested in people. And I found even prior to that, that a lot of friends would come to me, you know, wanting to talk through their problems. And that was just sort of a natural role for me. So I decided to go back and finish my undergrad in psychology and then pretty quickly went on for a master's degree in counseling psych. And I had the idea that I was going to be a full time therapist, I had an idea, I was always interested in diversity and social justice, I did a lot of activism around anti apartheid when I was in college in the 80s. And so I figured I would work with marginalized populations and and then after I got my master's degree, I went into community mental health. So it was really working with people who just had a lot of adversity, you know, extreme poverty, a lot of violence in their lives, a lot of discrimination, homelessness, incarceration in and out of psychiatric hospitals. And I learned so much from that work about myself about, you know, starting to look at some of my own areas of privilege and oppression, I'm particularly really starting to understand what it meant to have White privilege, what it meant to have class privilege, and that people really look at the world through different lenses in a way that I think hadn't really sunk in prior to that time. But the big turn in my career at that point, is that, you know, I was in my late 20s, and I finally came out. And so that was, you know, kind of an earth shattering thing and transition for me coming out as an LGBTQ person. And you know, the exact letters under the alphabet that I personally identify with have evolved over time as society. And as those labels have changed, and awareness of different labels have changed. And I think like, that's a beautiful thing, too. We don't have to figure that out from day one out of the gates. But I think at that point, pretty quickly, I started to become identified at the agency, the community mental health center where I worked. And also I started a small private practice. And so people in the LGBTQ community started coming to me for therapy. And I think you know, that that's something that happens, especially back then when there are way fewer people that were out. And I just was infinitely interested in the life stories of my LGBTQ clients. And, you know, I wanted to read and learn everything I could about how to best help them how to best affirm how to best really take into account their sexual orientation and gender identity as a therapist, and there's very little to read, there's very little research, I hadn't had any training in graduate school. None of my supervisors or colleagues had like there was really a dearth of information out there. And I also just got really interested in a lot of research questions, you know, particularly around trauma, like what does it mean to you know, experience, intimate partner violence, you know, sexual trauma, you trauma from being in the military. and also to be living on a day to day basis with, you know, at the time I didn't even have the language of microaggressions. But just the daily things that happen as an LGBTQ person. And you know what I also got interested in like, what makes LGBTQ mental health different? How is it different or similar? You know, how should therapy look different or similar. And I just couldn't find very much about this. And I really like started to get interested in going on for a PhD and going into academia, I think I'm sort of a big picture, person. And I felt like I wanted to do something in the field on a scale that was bigger than one client at a time, even though I deeply valued that work. So in the late 90s, I was applying to grad school, I was looking for mentors to do LGBTQ research with in clinical psych, there were very, very few. And also, I got a lot of mentoring and people discouraging me from focusing on that, you know, you'll never get a job, this is going to kill your career, you should have a second line of research and have that be kind of your side thing. People aren't going to think that's important. I mean, these are all things that were said to me. But I am personally kind of a rebel at heart. So I just did not listen to any of that. And I'm really glad that I didn't. And I think that's maybe a piece of advice that is translatable to the present day, I found it incredibly rewarding to be on the cutting edge of a field and do something where there was very little and you know, if I had just gone into graduate school and studied trauma, generally in general populations, I would just be like one of 1000s of researchers, but doing my dissertation work, looking at what you know, interpersonal victimization, looks like and how it affects and my dissertation focus just on sexual minority, lesbian, gay and bisexual folks, there was a parallel project that focused on trans folks, gender non conforming folks. But that, like, you know, the article that came out of my dissertation has been cited. So many times I had people contacting me from other countries, because it was really the first in, you know, a reputable peer reviewed journal that really looked at that. And so that's just been a thrill. I also got really lucky, you know, I want to say it's not, you know, it's not all me like I happen to get into work with one of a handful of our LGBTQ mentors in my field, Dr. Esther Rothblum at University of Vermont, and she's really a pioneer, she started doing this stuff in the 1980s, you know, LGBTQ stuff, and feminist work in a field that wasn't really supportive of that. And so I think her persistence and her leadership, I really learned a lot about, you know, not necessarily taking no for an answer, not taking rejection as something personal, being able to weather the storm of getting really oppressive, discriminatory, often ignorant feedback from reviewers and peer reviewed journals, or grant reviewers or whatnot. And that's really a foundation that I built my career on. So I got my PhD and moved back to the West Coast. And at that point, in the early 2000s, there was really like a tidal wave of opportunities for funding for LGBTQ research. And I think, you know, like, the research world was starting to catch up particularly at National Institutes of Health. So there, I really think I, you know, was in the right place at the right time. And I was able to get an individual postdoctoral fellowship that I did at University of Washington and did a lot of my work on minority stress and measurement, development of minority stress and multiple minority stress, looking at intersectional minority stress of LGBTQ and racial and ethnic identities.

And then I went on and I got a K award. And I stayed on as a research faculty at University of Washington, but then sort of another societal change that affected my career was the economic crash in 2008. The NIH funding really dried up at that point. And so having a career as a research faculty, where really the bulk of my salary was dependent on getting big research grants just started to seem maybe not like the best idea. So, you know, I started to look around a little bit for a tenure track job, I really wanted to stay on the West Coast, it's really important to me to be in an LGBTQ affirming area. And I also became a parent at that time. And, you know, being a queer parent, it was really important to me to live in a place. You know, at the time, that was also a much more rare thing and just to live in a place where my kids would have other families like theirs. And so then end of 2010, happened to see a job ad for faculty at Palo Alto University. And I always joke that that was the only ad I ever saw looking for a faculty member that did LGBTQ research, and I applied for it and I got it. And so I've been with PAU since 2011. And also, again, gratitude to Dr. Peter Goldbloom, who really did pioneering work in our PhD program to set up The sexual and gender identities clinic, the LGBTQ area of emphasis and the CLEAR research center, were all of which were, you know, highly unique at that time and really pioneering. So I've since become the director of the area of emphasis and the clear center, which really, you know, even when I look back on my postdoctoral fellowship application, what do you want to do, I want to have an LGBTQ Research Center someday. So I just feel so lucky that I like I actually get to do that. And so I think, you know, like to sum it all up, I really believe that focusing on LGBTQ psychology has been just one of the best decisions in my entire career and work life. I'm just so glad I didn't listen to the detractors, I guess the haters they'd be called now. And I think it's just made my work so much more personally meaningful to me than a lot of other things that I could have done. And it's just been a thrill to be on the cutting edge. And to also I would say, the community like to be a part of a small, now it's really growing, I wouldn't even call it small anymore, but just a national community of scholars, researchers and clinicians, that are focused on this work. And I think, you know, looking back, I'm just glad that I got to be myself in my career that I get to bring myself to work and all of my identities and my own evolving sexual and gender identities. And I just love being able to be authentic in my work and to keep growing personally in my work. And I have to say, now, I'm 56. And proud of it. And I think like, what's really amazing is all of the early career, you know, now maybe even mid career students, you know, hopeful students that I've had the chance to contribute in some way big or small to their education and just know that what I've done is going to live on like through them and all the amazing things they're going to do so.

Well, we are thank you. And we are also glad that you didn't listen to the haters and that you saw the ad and got the position. It's very good to have you here. And you touched on a lot of things that we're going to probably circle back to but Dr. Ausloos, I'd love to hear a little bit about your journey as well please.

Thank you, Chloe. Yeah, haters gonna hate Dr. Balsam, that's what I'm that's how I'm gonna say. So it's hard to follow that I appreciate that I'm in such great company. So I'm so honored to be here, I'll share just just briefly kind of what brought me to this place that I'm in currently in the space I hold. I am more of a new professional in this area. And so I was actually working in a New Jersey for a performing art studio. And as we mentioned before my bio, I was teaching music and theater and dance. And as I was working with students, my experience is much more kind of relationally informed in a sense where I was working with these students and teaching them and we had several students who we found ourselves conversing and having deeper conversations that were not related to what notes you're singing, or the right scale, but more so about how are you doing? How are things at home. And I remember a student, a student saying something like, you know, it feels like you're like my counselor, and I laughed. Of course, I wasn't, you know, providing counseling services at all or working in that way. But I thought, you know, some spark inside me said something that that made sense to me that I didn't, I didn't, I forgot that was an opportunity for me. So coming from a music and theater background. And I really, really valued that comment. And the more that I worked with students, the more I realized I wanted to do deeper work, in psychotherapy, and in counseling. So that led me to many years later where I started school counseling journey. So I decided that that was the way I was going to enter kind of the counseling field. And I really enjoy school counseling. I work with school counselors in training currently in the school counseling at Denver program. And at the same time, I also was curious about working with students, as we know, school counselors have a limited amount of time with students. And sometimes they're doing limited individual counseling moments with students. And I still had a curiosity for working more deeply with with with youth and with queer and trans clients. So looking at deeper work, and I decided to continue and look at the Clinical Mental Health Counseling track as well. So I was licensed and licensed in that and I decided that the combination of those things made me really, really excited for what was to come. And I didn't know what was to come, but I knew I wanted to go somewhere else move on grow in some way, which led me to the PhD program particularly interested in educating future counselors in in an affirming way, as well as as well as doing research. So something that I didn't even think that I could do. I didn't think I was a researcher and I was once told you know, do you have questions about life that you'd like answers to. And I said yes. And from there kind of took the leap. And so, you know, long story short led me down this path where I was able to now work with youth, particularly in a way that was in a clinical setting or in a school setting, where it was really, particularly working with queer and trans youth. And in my location that I that I was in, I am in a rural area. So I work remotely and I live in a rural area of Ohio, where there are not a lot of services, there's not a lot of resources, there's not a lot of support. So that even further motivated me to kind of continue work in this way so that I could work both clinically, and in schools with folks so they could receive better care, but also, as a kind of consultant in the area for folks who may not have a lot of experience, who are locationally, you know, challenged may not have the access to get to services may need some help. And so that's kind of where my role developed within the community as well. So started to be embedded in the community. And I also was very fortunate to receive a fellowship after after my graduation as well, with the National Board for Certified Counselors minority fellowship program where I was afforded some some funding to continue scholarship and continue training, directly impacting the folks in my community. So here I am. And here I sit today where I continue to kind of do research, continue to operate as an educator for counselors and training and then provide clinical services at a private practice setting in Northwest Ohio. So yeah, that's, that's where I am.

You also touched on a lot of things that I think we're gonna dive into a bit later. And there's so much to explore here. And I will say, I also have questions about life that I would like answers to, so maybe I will become a researcher as well. And so thank you so much for sharing a bit of your journeys. And it sounds like your careers have evolved in different ways, just as our topic is evolving, as well. And I'll again, ask you both answer the same question. And that is, how have you seen the academic field and society change over the course of your career, particularly as it relates to LGBTQ plus populations? And I am going to Clark, I'm gonna go back to you for this one to start. Yeah, thanks, Chloe.

So as I as I shared, I'm relatively new to the field, in a sense. And so I've been a counselor educator for about three years or so and as a professional counselor, and school counselor for about seven to eight years. So relatively new, in that sense. And so it's been interesting to see some changes and developments in my short time. But I think some of the things that I'm seeing more and more is the is the the conversation of queer and trans identities brought into spaces of discussing minoritized or non dominant populations that often were reserved historically for, perhaps just race, race and ethnicity in some ways. And so we see that within programs, we see that within a lot of conversation. So that's something that I see continuing to develop, were particularly the NBCC minority fellowship program, queer and trans identities, as populations within counseling is, is ever growing. And I was one of the first recipients to really focus on working with trans communities. And so that is something positive that I would say that we're seeing. Additionally, and I think this also speaks to Dr. Balsam, some of Dr. Balsams research is the conversations around intersectionality. And kind of the importance of the relationships of our of minoritized identities or non, non non dominant identities, and the understanding of these concepts in ourselves and others, particularly in counseling settings. So I think that that piece is continuing to develop, as well. Language and terminology and understanding of language and terminology, Dr. Bolson mentioned this before as well is ever growing, ever evolving, ever changing. And I remember working on an encyclopedia term terminology, several years ago, that now I look back and I would make changes to that draft now. So I would not have the same language that I used in that final draft in today's draft. And that's just an indicator of kind of how we're growing with language and hopefully in a maybe less stigmatizing way in a more empowering way. One example I always like to share is the were the term transphobia or homophobia, for example, and sometimes in literature. In some places, some spaces we're seeing the term misia used in lieu of phobia. So whereas phobia has that clinical connotation and can be stigmatizing. It also creates a responsive it almost almost takes responsibility away from the person who is perhaps homophobic or transphobic, they can't help it. It's a phobia. It's a clinical phobia, where we use the term misia or misic transmedia, really, the translation is hatred of or disgust of, and this more accurately describes the experiences. So that's just one example of kind of the language shift. But kind of indicates where where we're hopefully headed, and can be challenging and confusing and sometimes frustrating for folks. But that's how we grow and how we, how we adapt. And I think also, particularly in counseling spaces, and counseling, educational spaces, we're seeing the increased need for for topics related to sexuality, gender identities, expression and those nuanced experiences as well. So for example, working with trans or gender expansive, gender diverse clients, and what kinds of nuanced pieces do we need to know to better work and better support our clients related to perhaps medical affirming procedures, other types of social affirming, gender affirming, transitions, or whatever that looks like these pieces are really important to, to know and to be able to speak to with our clients. And so, you know, I think what's challenging is now we are in the space and was I'm sure will speak to this where we have this onslaught and backlash of, of really anti LGBTQ legislature, a lot of it is anti trans. And so I see in my spaces, future counselors in training fearful, particularly school counselors of how do I now implement social emotional learning principles? For example, when those are being kind of taken out of schools? Or, you know, how do I navigate a ratio of of books or identities or history in schools? So a lot of these questions directly relate now to our counseling field where we have these questions posed that we need to kind of discuss and work through. And then last, I'll say that, you know, I see, I see now a lot of my clients in a space where often they're fearful. And so I see clients now who identify as queer, trans, who are fearful of how legislature will impact their access to care and their their, you know, gender affirmation, and when one client, you know, was fearful, if they would have to de transition, for example, because of what's going on. So. So I've definitely seen in my short tenure, a very, like kind of growth in some ways, and then this kind of also cycle of moving backwards, so to speak. So those are some of the pieces that first speak to me.

I appreciate you sharing that there's, as you said, a lot going on and Dr. balsam, maybe you could jump in here as well, and talk about the evolution that you've seen and how that aligns, and maybe some additional pieces as well. Absolutely Yeah,

first of all, thanks, Clark, I really appreciate a lot of the things that you said, and, and so I'll try to just build build upon that. And I mean, one thing I just want to echo is things are, it's things are moving really rapidly now. And I've definitely had that experience, even something I published just a few years ago, being out of date already. It's I think that the pace at which things are evolving in both affirming and you know, extremely scary, oppressive directions is just, you know, it's kind of exploding right now. So a couple of things is me just really, from my vantage point, having been in this field in some way for about 30 years, and having been in the LGBTQ psychology world for like 25 ish years. It's amazing to see just how much things have changed. So when I started out, there was just very little visibility of LGBTQ people, LGBTQ concerns, you know, just LGBTQ sexual orientation and gender identity, you know, beyond just cisgender, male and female at all in psychology. And, you know, so really, all these identities were completely absent from our training and our coursework. You know, I had in my master's program, you know, a diversity class, they had like, one week on each population, I think we had maybe half a week on gay and lesbian clients, you know, and really nothing about trans folks. You know, most people didn't even know the term non binary at that time. Um, so, you know, I think, and also in other coursework, in my Master's and Doctoral Program, the norm, you know, the norm of people that we were learning about was presumed to be heterosexual and cisgender. So, not only were the issues absent, but it's just was very centric on those dominant identities. So there just really wasn't a framework for thinking about this. I think, you know, things started to change late 90s marriage equality movement, really started picking up and again, there's so much more to LGBTQ equality than marriage, but that was really like one of the big pushes for awhile, and it's really, you know, talk about a couple of ways my career has intersected with some social and political changes. One is that when I was in Vermont for graduate school, Vermont became the first state to have, you know, a statewide legal way of, you know, having a, like documentation for one's partnership with the civil unions legislation. And so, you know, again, thanks to my amazing mentor, Dr. Esther Rothblum, we seize the day and like did this research project that turned into a 15 year Longitudinal Study of couples. So we had same gender couples who had gotten a civil union. And they recruited, you know, some friends, who were also same gender couple, but didn't get a civil union. And then a heterosexual sibling of one of the civil union partners and a spouse, we had kind of three different groups. And that was just really amazing to be, you know, we called our first paper pioneers in partnership, and it was also a pioneering research area. And, you know, as a, you know, would say, over the next decade or so, as marriage equality, you know, gained steam in more states began to have same sex marriage and, and then eventually, the Supreme Court decisions in 2013 and 2015. That line of research got a lot of attention, even as I was doing other stuff ongoing about trauma and minority stress, like nobody wanted to hear about that they wanted to hear about, you know, happy couples together. But I think all of that changed, like the discourse really changed in society. And within psychology, you know, sort of starting with, there's a lot of anti LGBTQ backlash, you know, I'd say dating even back to, you know, 2015, and the, in the Supreme Court decision about marriage equality, certainly gaining steam as we were heading up to the 2016 election, and then the pulse massacre, which, you know, a lot of brought a lot of visibility to intersectionality, and the vulnerability of being an LGBTQ person of color, gender nonconformity, and just violence against LGBTQ people, which, you know, we know has been around all this time. But suddenly, that was much more back in the public discourse. And I think there was a lot more interest in that in research on intersectional populations, in research on trans and non binary folks. So I think, you know, that leads to like another I have like a couple important things, other things I want to say that have changed over time. And I think one of them, Clark touched on really this diversity within LGBTQ communities. And it used to be that LGBTQ research was, you know, about, I mean, initially gay men, and then like lesbian and gay psychology, and that lesbian, gay bisexual psychology. So I think inclusion of trans folks as part of this umbrella occurred within psychology along with really, you know, more so in LGBTQ communities as well. And that's not to say that there aren't, you know, ways that people still don't feel included, the more marginalized identities that you have. But I think that that was a shift in psychology, I would say, really, in the 2010s, I think in the 2010s, as visibility of trans populations, and certainly of non binary populations, people became a lot more aware of non binary gender identities, even though these identities have been present, as Chloe said, throughout history, across cultures, that psychology sort of followed suit. And really, my research also took a turn. And I focus a lot on trans and non binary populations and LGBTQ people of color. At this point, I think there's still a lot of work to do. But I think the the field of LGBTQ psychology really has diversified. And as Clark mentioned, you know, we now know about there a lot more identity labels that people use, and I think a lot more areas that need more research attention, that are starting to get some of it, but I think that's really like a future wave of research and clinical practice. Some of these the other identities that haven't been talked about as much. You know, I think another change I've seen is just just like, society is changing so rapidly, so is the field. So it used to be when I did my dissertation, I had read everything that had been published, and I was really proud of this that remotely addressed trauma in LGBTQ populations. And for several years, I was able to keep up with like, the whole body of literature. Now, I mean, my Google Scholar alerts explode at the beginning of every month. And you know, if you look on Twitter, for LGBTQ health research, or you know, there's lots of different hashtags and channels you can follow. I mean, there's just so much in so many people, my head just spins, you know, and I think that that is really amazing. And we really can't lose sight of this horrible backlash. And so I think it's just it's important that these things are expanding. That research is expanding that more people are going into this field, but it's really a time for all of us to step up and take action and use everything we've got to try to fight this backlash this legislation and to try to address the impacts on LGBTQ communities. So I think that's what I'll say about that.

Well, thank you very much. And it's interesting to hear we talk about the expansion, especially in research and those types of areas. But I want to circle back a little bit to something that Clark mentioned earlier about being in a rural area of Ohio, in that there's not quite as many resources and it can be location and geography dependent. So there's a lot more information out there. So and I can also see where being in a rural area, it's harder to access services, it's harder to access somebody who may have taken an interest in this. And I know from my own personal experience, that holding a certain identity can easily make somebody the de facto go to person for any issue regarding those identities. So I'd like to ask you, what are some of the benefits of being an LGBTQ plus person doing clinical work or research with LGBTQ plus populations? And if there are any pitfalls with that, and Dr. Balsam, I'm gonna continue and start with you on that one.

Thanks so much, Chloe. Yeah, this is really one of my favorite topics. I've spoken about this. And I teach a class LGBTQ issues in psychotherapy to graduate students. And, you know, I love thinking about how who we are as a person relates to what we do in the field of psychology, whether it's research or clinical work, or teaching or other things. So I mean, first of all, I'll just say, I think there are so many benefits to the psychology trainee or psychologist to being an LGBTQ person in LGBTQ psychology, no matter what you're doing, I'm just incredibly meaningful to do work that's giving back to our own communities. And whether it's helping individual people, whether it's advancing the field, whether it's doing research that gets used in, you know, Supreme Court decisions, or, you know, local, you know, political decisions or debates, public discourse, it's really, you know, for me, I found it's allowed me to work on multiple levels to help individual people, whether it's through teaching or clinical work, mentoring, supervision, but also to do something that is, you know, helping in some small way, hopefully, to just inch society towards being more equitable, you know, being more just you being a place where people can people of all sexual orientations and gender identities and all identities can really thrive. I think another benefit, I think I mentioned, this is just being a part of what feels like, you know, a small community within psychology. I know some of my friends that are psychologists that don't do LGBTQ psychology, for example, don't like going to big conferences, because they get lost, you know, there's 10s of 1000s of people there. You know, they're shy or socially awkward. I had some of those feelings too. But being an LGBTQ psychology, you know, when I go to the APA convention, I'm part of a smaller group of a few 100 people that I see a lot of different places. So it's, you know, and I have collaborators, a lot of my work has been done with collaborators around the country, when I was first starting out, you couldn't find someone to do research with who was at your same university or in your same location. So I was like an early adopter of collaborating across the internet, even in the late 90s. So I think that's been really amazing. But there are also some potential pitfalls that I'll mention. I think there are also some potential pitfalls to mention about being an LGBTQ person doing LGBTQ psychology. So I think one thing is that LGBTQ plus is not a monolith, right? There are different identities and different intersectional identities. So I think sometimes there's a pitfall where people might think they understand their clients more than they do. This comes up a lot. And I teach about this with, you know, cisgender, gay, lesbian, bisexual, queer people thinking that they know and understand inherently how to work with trans and non binary people. And there's really, you know, different set of issues, some similar issues, but a different set of issues. You know, it's certainly true, you know, being a White clinician working with LGBTQ people of color, being an able bodied clinician working with someone who has a disability. So I think that's really important to attend to. But even if you have a client who has all the same cultural identities as you, they're not going to have the same experience. So I think it's even more important to just really carefully listen, be humble. You know, take in what the client is saying, and try to get your own stuff. You can listen to your own stuff, right, like our own countertransference. Our own reactions to clients are sometimes a guide to what's going on with the client to what to do with the client, but to really work and get consultation and supervision and one's own therapy, to try to work that stuff out so that you're not making assumptions. I think another thing is that for many people, and certainly my story is an example of this. Coming to terms with and coming out and transitioning and going through an identity development process, as an LGBTQ person, for most people happens in, you know, early adulthood, simultaneous to when they're in their training as a psychologist or counselor. And so I think that's just something to be mindful of, I have seen some students who are really early in a coming out transition process, who've really thrown themselves into LGBTQ psychology and then realized maybe it was just too much, you know, especially if a person is having challenges in their own life related to these identities, it's sometimes it's triggering to have a lot of that with clients, or research subjects or everything you're reading. So it's really all okay, like, there's room for everybody, there's room to, you know, switch gears and tracks. And it's just important at any point in time to pay attention to what those choices are, and how they relate to your own identity. I also want to underscore that having an identity doesn't necessarily make somebody an expert in working with people with that identity. So I've had people say, oh, yeah, I know how to see it, you know, um, you know, back to something that Chloe said about how being an LGBTQ person can sometimes make you the go to expert, I definitely see that happen. You know, I've seen students graduate from our program, who hold one of these identities and didn't specialize in working with LGBTQ populations also become the de facto person in their agency, just like I was in the 90s. But I think there's more to it than just having the identity I mean, just like being a human doesn't necessarily mean you know, how to be a clinical psychologist working with humans, their skills, knowledge, research theory, you know, experience supervision, like you need all of these things. And so I really want to underscore that, that I think it's still important to get really systematic training. Unfortunately, there's more and more of that out there. And then I think one more thing I want to say is, you know, just with the burgeoning visibility of LGBTQ people and culture, and I think the greater awareness, especially over the past few years, just about diversity and intersectionality. In our field, there are a lot more cisgender and heterosexual trainees who want to do this work. And I've heard them some times feel be discouraged, you know, I shouldn't apply to work in the sexual and gender identities clinic. I'm not an LGBTQ person. And, you know, I think I really want to correct that. Like, that's not true, there really is room for everybody. And there's a tremendous need. I mean, there are so many LGBTQ people that need psychological services now, you know, maybe more than ever. And so, there's room for everybody, there's a place for everybody, we don't have to all be a part of every community that our clients are a part of. And I think really, you know, I would say my mission for this, you know, latter part of my career, is to make sure that good evidence based training in clinical work, research, teaching advocacy with LGBTQ populations, is just integrated into every psychology graduate curriculum. Like that's my main thing, because I think everybody needs to know this, whether you specialize in this work or not, you're going to see LGBTQ clients, and they're going to benefit tremendously if you get this training.

Well, I 100% agree with that. And I hope that is reassuring to people who are considering going into this field as well. And Clark, I'd love to have you jump in on this as well, knowing that you may be making an assumption that you may have some of the same issues.

Yeah, so I appreciate Dr. Balsams response, I had a lot of the similar sentiments. And so I'm trying to kind of refine and highlight some things that that they were mentioning, one of the things so as a openly queer person, in working with clients who are queer, trans, in a clinicals, in a kind of more microcosm of clinical setting, I have found that it can be helpful for me in with all folks within within LGBTQ communities, although we don't share the same experiences, I may not have the same identities. There is sometimes a, especially in my location, there's an increased trust, maybe an increased ability to build rapport and relationship with these with these clients, and perhaps increase their levels of comfort and of disclosure of their own identities. And what that looks like. I think my approach using appropriate self disclosure as a counselor, particularly around my queer experiences, or my development has really benefited the counseling relationship. So from a little kind of micro lens, they're ultimately hopefully contributing to to more positive treatment outcomes with with the clients that I have and students that I work with. I will say just conversely, as a pitfall, this is a little bit more personal as well, from my own personal standpoint. I think that sometimes I can experience burnout in a way that is just a little bit more increased than perhaps others who might not share my identities. And that's just kind of where I operate from having a all already wanting to work with folks. help folks help folks heal. There's already that personal connection. And so really navigating vicarious trauma burnout, it can be personally really tiring, especially in this landscape that we that we have. And I will also really support what Dr. Balsam was saying about folks who might be the only queer or trans person in their academic setting in their clinical setting. And often times we are they are made to tokenized, in a sense, are made to be the spokesperson for queer or trans issues, having the burden or responsibility of always having to educate other other people. And so I think that is a potential pitfall as well. And with increased ally ship and other ways, I think we can kind of continue to work in a place where we have some support there. And the more we have visibility and representation within the field as well, it's going to help us in that way.

I very much appreciate hearing that. And I think that our listeners and viewers, in some cases, are going to appreciate that as well, because it is a double edge piece of the position. And I do want to switch paths a little bit here. And let's talk about the research aspect of your careers. LGBTQ plus people similar to other non dominant populations, might be skeptical of the motives of researchers and concerned about confidentiality and anonymity. In your research work, how do you remain responsive to LGBTQ plus communities around these issues? And Dr. Ausloos, I'm going to stay with you on this one to start.

Thank you. Yes, I love this topic. This is something that I think is also an ever growing and developing field related to ways that we can continually work in a culturally responsive research Lens with folks. So historically, no research has been conducted in a very scientific way in a very in a way that is withholding information from participants perhaps. So I think that's something we're seeing now is more culturally responsive research in which we are including the populations as part of the research team, as part of the recipients of the research directly. So we can look at that in many different ways. There's different types of research methodologies, talking about community based participatory research or action oriented research action research, where we are directly involving folks from queer and trans communities, listening to the issues that they're bringing to the table as well, and having them a part of the research a part of the process and then a part of the dissemination of results as well. I think that's something that I'm continuing to work on in my in my research practice and as a researcher. And, you know, I think that's one way that we can really look at that. But there's a couple pieces I like to think about too, when I think about kind of culturally responsive research related to working with queer and trans folks and participants, is the main piece we look at is that the the framework of us as researchers, ourselves as humans, and researchers, of the participants, of the research topics, all of these are central to the research process, and not distant pieces, but really essential pieces. So there's this piece that that participants bring essential knowledge and assets to the research process that we cannot do without them. And then another piece, too, is the relationship of our own identities. And Dr. Balsam spoke to this before and how they interact and play with an influence our interpretations, our understandings of the world, and making sure that those are outlined clearly in our research as well. So that related to our own identities, our positions of power and privilege within the relationship or the research as well. And so yeah, I think those are some of the pieces I think about when I think about remaining culturally responsive to folks of queer and trans identities, particularly looking through that culturally responsive lens and inclusion in the research process.

I think that's really helpful as well, because the research is so important. The populations are so important that they're more empowered it sounds like and contributing to this really important work. So participants are really important here as well and Dr. Balsam, I know that you are well versed in research to it. Would you like to add to this? Yeah, thanks.

I really want to echo a lot of the things that Clark said I think they were spot on. And this also for me is one of my, you know, most favorite topics and something that I really enjoy working with students on their dissertation. And, you know, I've had a series of postdoctoral fellows work with me and do some mentoring early career professionals. And recently I've been involved with APA Division 44 Science Committee, we've done a series of different webinars, and we've been working on a publication about some related topics about just what does it mean to do LGBTQ research and engage with these different communities? And how does that intersect with one's own identities as a researcher? And I think, really, this is one of the most interesting challenges and opportunities of doing this kind of research, right? It's just interfacing with this marginalized community and really continually attending to all of the meanings of what we're doing, you know, sort of the the big picture, the meta view of what your what does a research content research method and data collection, you know, or interpretation, what does that look like? In my class, I also talk about how LGBTQ research is different at every phase from just even conceptualizing the question all the way through, you know, the methods and interpreting and disseminating the results. I think it's really important at every phase of the project, but really being responsive to communities and their concerns. And their, you know, very accurate assessment that research has been oppressive and has been misused to oppress LGBTQ and other marginalized people like balancing that reality with the reality of what does it take to launch a research career? What does it take to get, you know, a tenure track or other kind of research position? What does it take to get a grant? What does it take to maintain a research career? It's a competitive world, you know, it's kind of a cutthroat world out there. And so how do you balance all that? And I see a lot of people struggling with that. And there really aren't any easy answers. But I think, you know, continually reassessing what your own personal goals are, you know, do you have these goals? Because someone told you, you're supposed to be doing this? Or is this really what your goal is for yourself? Um, but I think really bringing a sense of cultural humility to everything you do as a researcher goes a long way. Like I, I know, even though I've been doing this research for a long time, like, I don't know, everything, I don't know, there's a lot of things I don't know. And there's a lot of things I don't know about research, I'm always learning. But also, there's a lot I don't know about how the community is going to respond to something. And so I always want to stay open to that, even if I think I figured that out with the last research project. And I think, you know, there's another piece there about transparency and openness about one's own identity, that's gotten easier for me, as I now have, you know, a pretty big web presence, like if you Google me, you can see that, you know, I am a part of the LGBTQ community, and that I've done a lot of work from an affirming stance. And I think when you're starting out, that's harder. So really establishing, you know, some kind of web or social media presence for who you are. And what you're about helps address some of that with research participants, I think really continuing to look at one's own areas of privilege, as well as oppression and seeing what what am I not seeing? Because I'm just looking through the lens of these identities. And I think Clark spoke to this, and just really being willing to continually take a look at that what's missing, there's been a couple of exciting papers published recently about identities around people doing research with trans and non binary populations. And, you know, was it mean to be a sis person, even as this person in LGBTQ communities, you know, sexual minority person and doing this research? And what should you be thinking about, and what's a way of really transforming the field so that it's, you know, trans led, and it's led by people with these specific concerns. I think it's also really important to make sure that when research studies focus on a specific population within the LGBTQ community input needs to be gathered from people who hold those identities from people who would be you know, qualified for the study, so to speak, throughout, but you know, especially like when launching a project before starting data collection, so I found there really have been times where myself and my students have, you know, done all this work and gotten IRB approved. And then when we get input from people who are a member of the target part of the population that we're studying, they really point out things that we just didn't see, because we've kind of got our research hat on. And so it's really important also to get out of academia. Right? You know, it's tempting to just ask ones, you know, for example, if you're a cisgender, sexual minority person, you're doing research on trans populations to ask your trans colleague who's also an academic psychology or counseling researcher, but I think to go outside of that. And what's this gonna look like to people in the community who don't know about research and aren't sort of in this narrow world, there's just so many different ways of looking at things. So I think that's important to be willing to adjust midstream, even if you have to change your IRB or lose some of your data. And I think another thing is just really working on disseminating research findings beyond peer reviewed journals. Obviously, I'm a big fan of the peer review process. I've been on editorial boards, I published a lot. But that only goes so far. I mean, sometimes I joke that you know, only a handful of my friends read some of these articles, and even then they're probably just skimming it because they don't have time, you know. And I mean, I think I don't think that's totally true. But we've got to get outside of our little echo chamber of academics, and I've seen really exciting, you know, some early career researchers doing some really exciting things with social media posts that summarize research findings, I think you can give public facing talks to, you know, the general community, not within your field, I think you can have a blog. There's just lots of different ways of disseminating op eds, you know, writing articles for popular magazines or newspapers, so I think all of that stuff is important in bridging some of that gap between researcher and research participants.

Thank you both very much, because research is not always very well understood. And I appreciate you sharing about that. I know we have about 15 ish minutes left. So I want to get to at least two more questions. I feel like we've touched on this next one a little bit, maybe danced around it a little bit, so I'm just going to go for it. And unfortunately, the research that we just talked about isn't always taken into account in terms of legislation, policy and public perception. Anecdotally, many within the LGBTQ plus community feel under attack due to rising amounts of discrimination and violence. to back that up. I'll note that as of mid July 2023, already over 560 Anti trans bills have been introduced across the US, in at least 14 trans or gender non conforming people have been murdered here in the United States as well. For various reasons, people seem to be emboldened in their hate. Practitioners especially are in a very difficult place with more scrutiny than maybe ever before in this area. How do you see this playing out in the real world? And what advice would you give to other practitioners? And Dr. Balsam I'm going to stay with you on this one to start.

Thanks, Chloe. Yeah, I'm really glad we're talking about this, I don't think you can talk about LGBTQ psychology and counseling right now, without this being a large part of the conversation, unfortunately. And, you know, it's I can't emphasize enough just how devastating this backlash and these bills and this legislation is for the mental health of LGBTQ people, but especially trans non binary, gender non conforming people. And so I think it is really important to make that this is a place where those distinctions under the LGBTQ umbrella are important. There's certainly an overall anti LGBTQ backlash, but it's not in any way parallel to this very specific focus on trans and non binary populations, particularly on youth. And, you know, on gender affirming care. And, you know, this really affects clients and therapists alike, right. So, you know, I'm not currently doing clinical practice. I know, Clark, you are, but I'm working with a lot of students and trainees and a lot of colleagues who are and teaching about it, I am teaching about it. And I think, really, this is coming up in, you know, like almost every session for, you know, a lot of clinicians working with clients, especially those who are trans and non binary or questioning their gender identity, gender expression. And it's really what I'm seeing for clinicians is, it's really hard to feel powerless to help your clients in the face of these tremendous socio political forces out there cultural forces. And I think we go to school to help people because we want to actually feel like we can do something. And I think also, for a lot of clinicians, it's triggering to hear this in every single session, right? I mean, we're supposed to be, you know, objective and be there helping people and put our own stuff aside for clinicians who have a trans or non binary or other LGBTQ identity or who have loved ones that do. This is so personally salient in some cases, you know, threatening for it's, you know, I think it's different depending on which state you're in because it's not all states that have this kind of legislation going on. But you know, there's been talk even here in California about you know, First of all, there have been some bills introduced, they didn't go anywhere. But even here, clinicians are talking about how it's affecting their clients here. And so that is enormous. I think another thing is on a more practical level, these restrictive laws are really in direct conflict with ethical practice of psychology, according to our ethics code, according to the number of different evidence based documents that APA has put out about what does affirming practice look like with LGBTQ folks, especially trans and non binary folks, um, APAs Division 44, just put out a statement kind of going through the ethics code and how some of these laws that are, you know, restrictive, that are threatening, or indirect conflict. So I think for clinicians in the States, and I think really, more needs to be written about this. But I'm seeing people struggling, what am I supposed to do, if I do the right thing for my client that I know is the right thing for my client, that I know from my training that I know from decades of empirical evidence that's in conflict with this law. And so I think that's incredibly salient, you know, that people could be risking criminal prosecution just for doing the right thing clinically, I think it's also true that our profession has been mischaracterized in some of these debates. You know, if you look at some of the discourse around, you know, this myth that like, it's just pure pressure that's making you the transition that mental health professionals are talked about, it's almost like we're just like on a conveyor belt, like anyone comes into the office with any gender nonconformity. And we just send them for gender affirming medical care. And to me, that's demeaning of our profession, and just how systematic and robust you know, the professions of psychology and counseling and social work and other mental health professionals are the, you know, we never just make a one size fits all decision for our clients, or at least not anybody that's pressed, practicing ethically does, it's always about listening, you know, doing an assessment, really tailoring what we're doing to the individuals uniqueness, and balancing that with what we know from empirical evidence. So I find that really problematic. And, you know, I think I'll say one more thing about this, and I'm sure that Clark has a lot of really interesting insights. But I think, you know, it's always been true that you can't really call yourself an LGBTQ affirming practitioner, without engaging in some way outside of the therapy room, you know, in my class, LGBTQ issues in psychotherapy, one of the assignments is like, just go to something in the community, that's not a psychology thing, go to a community center, go to a documentary film, you know, go to a rally, you know, for some political cause, but like, do something else, you know, go to a party, even if it's something else in the community outside of the therapy room, and then reflect on your insights from that, and how, you know, it affects how you think about the work you're doing, and LGBTQ psychology. But I think a big part of it is advocacy, you know, as doctorally trained psychologists or master's level clinicians, we have more education than the vast majority of the public in the United States. And we have education on topics that are really, really relevant for this discourse and for countering these hateful bills. And we need to use our voice however we can and speak up and you know, now is the time, you know, if you've just been sitting in your office somewhere, like now is the time to get out there and show solidarity and you know, join the fight against all of this hate.

Thank you very much for that. And I have the benefit of seeing Clark nod along with some of this. So I'm going to ask you to jump right in here.

Absolutely. Yeah. So Dr. Balsam spoke directly to a lot of pieces that I that I want to echo and, you know, when we talk about what does this look like, now, what how is this playing out in the field, just from a clinical standpoint, thinking about working with clients, I'm seeing, you know, definite fear as I shared before, families, in many states, particularly with a trans client, trans child, or gender diverse child are having to move out of state or fear of moving out of state to a state that is affirming doesn't have laws that are restricting and then to echo what Dr. Balsam said a lot of confusion just among providers among students, and even faculty about what to do in our states when these when these when we're faced with our ethical standards and these kinds of legal mandates and and what do we do so a couple of more like tangible pieces that little more pragmatic pieces I think it's really important to stay updated with with the legislature and current legislature. Not just tangentially but kind of really directly using sources like ACLU, Human Rights Campaign, Human Rights Watch or lesson for youth and adolescence where we can really see what laws are being passed, when were they passed, a lot of times, we will see in the news, certain bills are being passed, and that will kind of cause hysteria and fear, which is makes total sense. However, many bills don't get passed. And so we need to know what is being passed and kind of where they are in the stages of that. So that's important to keep keep abreast of, I think, also making sure that as practitioners as professionals, and during the field, even that we're utilizing consultation with others. And so we are consulting with perhaps our ethical consultants or board as part of our professional organizations, for example, the American Counseling Association, or the American School Counselor Association, as well as liability insurance consultation, if you are unsure about something, so remember that, you know, may feel isolated, particularly those of us that are in these rural spaces, but that we can utilize others, others within a supportive network. I think also continuing what Dr. Balsam mentioned, continuing to really focusing in us the research, the scholarly literature, the data, the best practices to to inform our decisions, and moving forward, which as as it's challenging are some somewhat in competition to these these laws. Another thing I think about is continuing to highlight the good work within your community. So really, in a kind of strength based, empowerment way, really highlighting what's going well in your communities, what organizations are really thriving, how can we celebrate continue to celebrate our identities and ourselves and our communities? And then similarly, I had this exact note of how are you or not interacting with queer and trans folks in your personal lives and your personal spaces? Because as we know, as research shows us that the increased engagement with folks in our personal lives in some way impacts our professional development and our professional practice. And so really, that that piece of what is our what is what do those spaces look like for us in our personal lives? And who are we engaging with? And what does that mean to us? And how does that impact us? And then I would also say that one important piece for us to think about moving forward to particularly with folks that might need additional services, mental health services, or other helping professions in the community is to really know who is affirming. So looking at who, what, and who are affirming providers in our communities. And I think, again, that information a lot of times comes from our clients comes from the communities themselves, of folks saying, you know, hey, this provider is affirming and then having another client might tell us that, and so we have to do some vetting of our own as well. And making sure that we are referring folks and having a supportive, strong community of referrals and resources that are affirming, and not just say it or have a sticker on their window. But really, what are they doing right. And I think that speaks to us as counselors as well. We talk a lot about cultural competence. And it seems like this thing that we might be able to reach and be culturally competent. I think that speaks to our work with queer and trans folks as well. That I don't think we'll ever be super competent. But we're always growing, changing, developing, becoming better. I know myself, I learned so much from literature, but just equally from from my clients as well. And so knowing that it's that we're always growing and developing in this way and to, to honor that and to continue to stay curious and open as well.

Thank you. That's incredibly stay curious. Stay open, always a student, always learning. And I'm thankful that you also included some actionable and tangible things that people can start to work on, as soon as they stop listening to this podcast. But I'm hearing in addition to a lot of other things that we've discussed today, that field needs more mental health practitioners focused on LGBTQ plus issues. So lightning round, if someone is out there listening to us and wondering if this is the field for them, or if a current student is considering areas of foci what would you say to them as your top piece of advice, and I'm going to start with you Clark, and then we'll move on to Dr. Balsam.

So I would say kind of in a personal, personal plea for you that you know, if you have an interest in counseling, and mental health professions in psychology, and you also hold a queer or trans identity, we need you we need your representation and your visibility within the field, your expertise, your experiences, as as not only counselors but educators, researchers, anything to support our field. So we need you and you can have major impact on someone's life too. So not in a selfish way about this being about you. But knowing that you know, you can really have an impact On one client's life that really can make a difference. You know, research shows us that having for youth trans youth, for example, having one supportive adult in their, in their lives really reduces suicidality. And so you could be that that one person, for example, as a counselor or school counselor, so the importance of just, you know, kind of you can look at this, like, wow, where do I start with this? All this seems overwhelming, how can I make a difference? And I think Dr. Balsam spoke to this, too, of, you know, there's these more nuanced ways of maybe just one client at a time.

Thank you. And Dr. Balsam.

I mean, in a nutshell, I would say go for it. I think, you know, I've mentioned a lot of the rewards that I found, and that I've seen in my students, and trainees and postdoctoral fellows. And I think I really want to echo that, I mean, mental health professions really are growing like it's a good way to, you know, it's a profession, there's always going to be a need for some type of mental health support. So I think, you know, as Chloe mentioned, there's really a tremendous need for mental health support at this point. It's, you know, it's a good career to go into, there's always going to be jobs for psychologists and counselors and other mental health professionals. Also, there's a tremendous need for mental health support among LGBTQ populations, you know, we know from research that there, you know, are elevated rates of mental health problems, definitely elevated rates of adverse life experiences related to stigma and discrimination. You know, something I want to mention also is, it's surprising sometimes that the disparities aren't greater given the amount of adversity so I, I want to just give a shout out to, you know, studying and talking about, and promoting awareness of strength and resilience, and just, you know, many of the beautiful aspects of being LGBTQ. But I also want to say there's a real need for mental health professionals to focus on LGBTQ issues. And on a pragmatic level, if you're someone who's considering this, it's a good strategic career move. I think, you know, contrary to when I went in the field, and people were saying, this is going to kill your career, I have really seen my students coming out of the PhD program with the LGBTQ area of emphasis, be in high demand, whether it's for, you know, their full time clinical internship that they do is their final thing before graduating or postdoctoral fellowship, or a clinical job or an academic job, and even leadership positions, I think that people, it's something that makes you rise up in the pile or the list of applications, because let's face it, agencies, clinics, hospitals, universities, really have a need to be offering services to LGBTQ populations, and many of them do not have anybody on staff or don't have enough people on staff or faculty with that expertise. So places are really hungry for this. Not very many people have really dedicated, systematized training in this area. So I think it's a good career move. And it's something that really will help you to not only feel like you're making a difference, but you know, it's a good way to pursue a career at this point. And this is also true within psychology, even if you're particularly interested in another specialty area, I'm seeing a lot of people going into forensic psychology, for example, there's a tremendous need to be working with LGBTQ folks, particularly trans folks in the criminal justice system. You know, neuro psychology, there's a lot, you know, a lot of neuro psychology instruments are normed, on you know, cisgender, male and female and, you know, what are we, you know, how do we do these valuable assessments with people who don't fit into that binary? I think, you know, as Clark has touched on, and child and adolescent psychology and therapy, there's just a tremendous need, whether it's in school settings, or community settings, private practice. So I mean, I would say go for it. And you know, just listen to yourself, find mentors, and I think it's a really a pathway to a very meaningful career.

I can't thank you both. Enough. Unfortunately, we are running against time here. So I just appreciate you have this intense in a very important conversation today. One thing that I know I'm leaving with personally is you could be that one person, and that goes for clinicians. That goes for you as a citizen. That goes for anybody who's listening and is part of the world. You could be that one person for somebody else, and I appreciate you all sharing about this. Your expertise and voices are going to be helpful to so many people, clients, practitioners society in general, and to our audience, please check out both of our speakers on their LinkedIn profiles to learn a bit more about their work and keep up with what's new in the field. And then want to thank our Division of Continuing and Professional Studies colleagues for all of their hard working coordination and getting this series off the ground. When you visit the Palo Alto University website, you'll see opportunities where they afford CE credits. And also feel free to reach out to me at Alumni Relations at paloaltou.edu If you have any questions, and I'll try to point you in the right direction. Thank you so much for joining us today. And I hope you all have a wonderful day. Please join us for the next episode. Where Dr. Patty Zapf Will discuss military psychology with other experts in the field.