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Alright, Hi, and welcome to the thoughtful counselor podcast, Dr. Clark Ausloos is here. so thankful to have you on the show today, we are going to be focusing on creating inclusive spaces for trans and non binary students in K 12 settings. And you have tons of clinical and research expertise in this area. And this is also an area of the thoughtful counselor podcast that we I in my opinion is really underdeveloped. And so thank you so much for helping to fill this really important area for our show and just in the field of professional counseling.
Absolutely, it's my pleasure to be here. And anytime I can share a little bit about my work and hopefully better spaces for trans and gender expansive, folks. It's my pleasure to do so. So
well, I would love to hear a little bit more about what has drawn you to this work, how you became engaged in professional counseling and kind of what you're doing right now. So our audiences gets a good sense of who you are and where you're coming from.
Yeah, thank you, I would love to share that. I think I like many people that are on this podcast from from those I've heard from as well. You know, I have a unique background kind of coming into counseling, where my undergraduate work and experience was actually in music and theater. And so at one point, I was living in New York City, and I was working, and teaching Performing Arts at a performing arts school. And I was working with some students teaching piano and voice things like that. And I remember some conversations that we were having about, you know, their families and their relationships and not feeling okay. And I remember one student said to me, you know, it's like, You're like my counselor, and we kind of laughed about it. And, you know, but I kind of put that in my back pocket, and it was always there from that moment. And so I started like, transitioning to the space of, you know, how can I were deeply work with, with you if that was something that I was that was loving to do in a in a teaching way. And that led me to spinning my wheels and kind of considering going into counseling, so my, you know, my first dive was actually into professional school counseling. And in my program, we had the ability to also do kind of a dual licensure program. And so I decided to also go the clinical route. So I am a licensed school counselor, and a licensed professional counselor in the state of Ohio. And that led me to my further studies in counselor education. So I received my PhD at the University of Toledo, in Ohio, and really just positioned me in a way that now that I look back upon this and answering this question that really, you know, kind of it all fell into place for me and I think that to be able to look at that now is just a beautiful thing. I work currently clinically at a private practice setting with majority of my clients are transgender, expansive or queer, youth and families. And then I also consult with local school systems, local school districts for professional development opportunities, as well as consulting with other school counselors. And I also am a faculty member at the University of Denver where I've worked with school counseling, school counselors and training so I I kind of have my hands in a bunch of different buckets and say,
Yeah, I also I think as you were, as you're describing your past and current involvement, I really see you kind of being at all levels of potential advocacy for this population. Even starting in your experience working in theater, and music and voice, with these young people, before you transitioned into the counseling field, you've really been able to hear firsthand what it is that this, you know, this group of folks faces, inside and outside of the school system. And I don't know, I just see the multiple vantage points that you possess. And I'm especially grateful to have your expertise here today. I'm wondering if you could talk more about, so you had this, you had this realization, before you went into counseling, that these students, your transgender, and gender expansive students, were facing really unique, specific barriers that your non trans or cisgender students were experiencing? And so I'm wondering if you talk a little bit about that, what some of the barriers that you've perceived from, you know, working with this population in school settings?
Yeah, absolutely. And I do, I do want to note, that initially, when I started this work, I'll be quite frank in, you know, my, my focus sort of, so to speak, or my experiences was working with LGBTQ IAP plus, folks, and so I was really kind of working with queer and trans folks. And, as I continued working, you know, with these populations, these were the, these were the students, these were the clients that really continued to have increased barriers, like I'm going to speak to, and really a multitude of challenges when compared to their, you know, non trans counterparts. So I think that that need then became a place where I could where I could work within that, for that, within that space. And so, you know, challenges come in many different levels, I think that, you know, because we have a lack of education and training in these areas, with professionals in school settings, like teachers administration, and specifically school counselors, as well. It's an area where we're seeing increased training, but not enough. And so that lends itself to not knowing how to work with trans and gender diverse students in schools. And so this confusion, a lack of competence, all of these factors by, you know, stakeholders, administration, and educators, and families leave trans kids feeling like isolated alone, you know, experience severe marginalization and an isolation schools. And, and also generally, kind of a lack of safety. And, you know, looking through a trauma informed lens, we, we, you know, we look at, like the safety and not that being a really important piece. And so we have kids in schools for all hours of the day, feeling unsafe, you know, how does that contribute to mental health outcomes, which is, we know that it's their core. And, you know, a lot of the work that I do, unfortunately, a lot of times is repeating stats about the high rates of suicide, you know, nine times that of the general US population for trans and gender expansive folks, and I think that sometimes, you know, those figures are staggering and scary. And also a part of the education as well that we need to provide to folks in schools to say, hey, look, this is a really important issue. And if we're going to be working with all types of students in an equitable, inclusive way, then we need to pay attention to our trans students as well. You know, that leads to things like a trans student, you know, using a different pronoun than what is on their school registration, for example. So how does the school setting navigate that And those are questions that come up, how do we how do we do this. And so, you know, that invalidation of maybe not using that person's pronouns, or let's say they, you know, use a different name, that type of constant invalidation is, is so harmful. And the fact that it keeps happening, you know, kind of normalizes it for trans folks to them. So they, they really come into counseling settings going, Okay, so this is just, you know, this is how it is, and this is the space I have to live in and occupy.
And I imagine that there are such incredible geographic disparities as well, because I I, I recognize, you know, I probably went to school and got my master's degree a couple years before you, but I remember my master's degree, while we had some talk around LGBTQIA issues very broadly, we certainly did not do any deep dives into the specific experiences and needs of LGBTQ kids and let alone transgender and gender expansive kids. And so if you were talking about this kind of this gap in counselor preparation for being able to address the needs of these students, and I can certainly personally just confirm that, that I have seen that to be true as well. And I know it just in talking to colleagues, a lot of folks, even folks that specifically go into school counseling have sometimes thought like, well, what is my responsibility as a school counselor? Like how, you know, what are the specific competencies that I need to be able to specifically, you know, support this group of students? And I think the fact that we have to ask that question maybe tells us the lack of training and preparation that a lot of Masters and PhD programs like have just as, as standardized components to the, you know, to the program of studies, but maybe also just, and I don't have research to support this. So Clark, I'm curious to hear what you say. But I think there's also this growing assumption that, like kids these days are just all gender expansive, and it's fine and it's, it's no longer stigmatize they're, they're no longer facing marginalization. And so, you know, kids, kids have all of the creativity and, you know, all of the space for, you know, creativity and exploration around these things that none of us had when we were younger. And I mean, I think that that has a ton of geographical variation, right? That That might be true in certain areas of the country, but absolutely not true and others. And so, for folks listening to this, that either are in school counseling or thinking about going into school counseling, I'm curious what you would say in terms of, you know, like, what are bare bones responsibilities for being responsive to the needs of this population? And then what what should we be aiming toward? Like, what is our aspirational competency for working with these students?
Yeah, that's a great question. These are really, really great. And I think I'm going to I'm going to preface by saying that my answer is not these are the answers to directly answer your question. But these are questions I also have that fuel my research and my searching for these answers in my having these discussions. And so, you know, we have, you know, we have some work that says, Here are some basic foundational things that we're finding that are that are effective for working with trans students, ways to work with families, ways to work within school systems for school counselors working with trans students, because as school counselors, we are required mandated to, you know, speak to and uphold and support value validate a diverse, diverse student body, and that means gender diversity and gender expansive identities. So it's already written into kind of infer, following the American School Counselor Association standards and, and professional competencies. Where do I stand in that? Well, it's kind of it's written in our, you know, mode, you know, not that that means much a lot of things can be written down, right. But it is, it is something that is built into the framework. Like you're saying, what it looks like in practice is really different for for every school, especially geographically. You run into issues also, you know, with the school counselor, working with more than 250 students in a school is very common. So while we're seeing that number, come down, there's one school counselor, you know, for all those students, and I think Sometimes they run into the burden of not having enough time to do things, which is another challenge in itself and speaks to what are the roles and responsibilities and appropriate duties for his professional school counselor. So that's I think that's another conversation to have. But I think one of the biggest themes I keep running into is honoring and validating students and their identities and who they are. And while that sounds kind of simple, as school counselors, that's the first and really most essential thing that we can do, we may be the only person in this person's life in this student's life, who calls them by the name, they'd like to be called, who calls them by their authentic name, who uses their pronouns who sees them. And that is invaluable on to have that, that one supportive adult, we see research that shows one supportive family member, one supportive adult can really reduce some of those mental health risk factors. And so I think, the importance of school counselors knowing that the weight and responsibility of that of that role of, you know, is important to know, but also just in knowing it's in a lot of these small skills and interactions that you have with with n students as well. So it so it starts with this small piece of listening and hearing the experiences of your of your trans students. And also not assuming that because you're meeting with this trans student that that experience is the same as other trans student that you may have worked with before. And I always think that's another important piece to this is really checking in with yourself. And also really navigating those assumptions that come up for us whether whether you are non cisgender, whether you are cisgender. And so you start with these small pieces, but then again, you know, it moves to pieces, like providing education to others in the school system, who might need some general education on you know, on pronouns, and I think sometimes people are like, you know, we want to move past pronouns one on one, meaning working with, with trans and gender diverse folks and clients and students, you know, we want to learn more, you know, intermediate advanced topics and dig, dig in. But unfortunately, for a lot of school, professional school counselors, we're still at the stage of kind of navigating some of those foundational pieces. So we need to have those discussions providing education to colleagues and professional development settings.
You know, even discussions on how do I navigate this with a family member who is invalidating and not, you know, or maybe this person isn't out to their family? Or what does that look like? So, I think, well, that can be kind of scary, and we go Oh, I don't want to think about that or anything like that later. I don't, you know, I'm having these discussions in counselor education training programs can be so essential, you know, having these kind of getting it out there and talking about this stuff. And and so one thing also, you know, I want to mention is when we're thinking about counselor, Counselor, education and training programs, in addition to having, you know, more robust curriculum surrounding queer and trans clients, and students, I think it also goes, it also we also need to incorporate this into just throughout all the curriculum, right? So, you know, when we're giving like examples and a class on statistics or assessment, are we using a heteronormative framework or we're using a sis normative framework? Are we using, you know, examples of queer and trans folks within different types of classes for for visibility and normalization, and so those are pieces to that I think, are are important and I I try to do those in the classes that I teach. So
you have spoke to so many different levels, I think of, of responding to and also being proactive to the needs of transgender expansive students, both at the you know, individual school counseling level and also at the counselor education level, the importance of having trans and non binary identities represented throughout the curriculum and not just reserved for that one day in the multicultural class or that one day in a human sexuality class if you're lucky enough to have one of those classes. It's visibility and representation and bringing attention to the needs of this population before you ever set foot in front of a client from this background. And I really appreciate that. And I know that you, you also described some of the barriers that school counselors specifically face in adequately, you know, meeting the needs of the students. And I think the first one that you that you described is just a general lack of bandwidth. I mean, school counselors notoriously take on or are assigned to activities and responsibilities that are far outside the purview of school counseling, that are administrative in nature, and oftentimes bring the professional away from the one on one work that they're doing with students or the advocacy that they're doing with and on behalf of students to like, the bus lane and to lunch duty, and all of that other stuff. And so I think that is that is a very real barrier put, you know, that that school counselors themselves face, but I'm wondering if others come to mind that really stand in the way of school counselors developing this competency? And then perhaps strategies for for moving through those those barriers?
I think that what's challenging is, school counselors are kind of advocating for their role as a school counselor, and what is the appropriate role, at the same time as they're advocating for all these other things? So you're talking about bandwidth? And, yeah, there's not a lot, there's not a lot to give. I think what I will say, as well, as is the importance of modeling appropriate language and behavior for the school community, I think that's one thing that can be done. That's, that's very effective. And so sometimes, you know, for example, I've heard of experiences of maybe educators saying some things in the hallway, that are not appropriate, or that are congruent with a student's gender identity. And, and so having a conversation with those educators about the appropriate terminology, you know, but also maybe it's having a conversation with that, you know, when you were conversing with that student in a public way, if it's appropriate, whatever that might look like, in a school setting, how are you modeling that language. And I also think, you know, doing school wide interventions is, you know, while sometimes it can be challenging, can also be effective, you know, that to reach a large amount of students, we, school counselors are always having individual personal counseling sessions every day with every student, right? And so are there other ways that we can increase visibility of these issues as well. And so if we have, you know, October is LGBTQ Plus, you know, History Month, and so we're bringing, you know, can we do something as small as quick some of this information on our bulletin boards that we generally reserved for other, you know, types of social, emotional, information psychoeducation, things like that awareness days, bringing these types of awareness days related to LGBTQ issues and Trans Pacific issues to the forefront and normalizing that as well, can all be work that hopefully can be within the bandwidth of the professional school counselor that's already within their, their duties, if they're allowed to do those, those duties, right, so on. And so but, you know, truth be told, it's still challenging. And so we're finding that school counselors are having to really look outside their training for the girls had their graduate training for spaces to improve their competence, and working with students. So this looks like professional development opportunities, when they're, you know, when and where they're available, that really specifically speak to working with students that are that are gender expansive, and trans non binary. And so, hopefully, we're seeing more of those trainings also being provided and being offered. But school counselors do have to do have to kind of seek those out. And so leaning into professional organizations that that do offer those those opportunities are important. And also, I think another really important thing is no matter where you are is connecting with your community, knowing the resources within your community, how, however limited that they might be knowing who are trusted professionals and resources within the community that you can refer to, because that is also part of our, our job is that piece of, of consulting and referral. Knowing who those people are, knowing what those resources are, knowing if it's an online resource, you know, thinking about the area in which I live. There's, there's not there's limited resources, right. And so, you know, I'm often checking into other areas to see are there resources around, I often learn from my gender expansive clients and students themselves, right, as far as who are affirming providers, and who are affirming resources and things like that. So so it's also important for a school counselor to know those so that they have that support as well and can and can refer students and families to other resources within the community.
I'm thinking, of course of the tripartite model of multicultural competency, knowledge, skills, and awareness. And you just did such an incredible job at listing some very specific knowledge, skills and awareness that are so important for I would say, not just professional school counselors, but counselors and therapists, as well, generalist counselors, if you are in a practice, if you are talking to clients, these are, these are pretty basic skills that we should all possess. I really appreciate you just offering some really specific examples on that one. So also, you know, in addition to this, your years of clinical experience and non clinical experience working with this population, I know you have considerable research experience actually deep diving into this issue in a large scale research study, and, you know, specifically talking about your dissertation, the biggest study, what does it professional school counselors level of self perceived competence working with trans students in k 12? settings? And I'm wondering if just you could share with our audience, some of the, I don't know, some of your findings, some of those aha moments that really stood out for you and doing this work?
Yeah, absolutely. I think what's great about this project is it's really, really pushing me forward into future studies as well. This is just I feel like this is a small stepping stone, you know, I mean, a 200 page document feels strange saying it's a small stepping stone, it really is in the sense of what it's telling what it's telling us and, you know, highlighting things that we already know some things, supporting, you know, sporting some things that are new, but also really just moving us continuing to move us forward and ask these questions. So basically, the research that we did, was looking at a large sample of professional school counselors in a variety of settings. Now, I will share that the study, you know, as as is kind of looking at the sample of professional counselors and school counselors majority were white cis women. And so, you know, that's something that's something to note as far as, what kind of what the implications and kind of generalization for for the study, but I will share,
you know, we wanted to look at, you know, what factors really kind of improve school counselor competence and working with trans students. And so we were, we were really exploring
You know, this piece of, of how our school counselors coming to know the things they know about working with trans students, you know, how are they feeling more competent and comfortable, and we're really finding a couple things that we already knew which, which first, they're not finding support in their training and education. So you know, this is something that from the majority of our participants, a really lack of, of training in this area, which led them to these professional development opportunities that were specific to trans non binary gender expansive students, issues. So the other piece that was really kind of unique was Looking at school counselors who have perfect who had personal, personal relationships and experiences with trans people outside of a school setting. And so this piece of, of knowing queer and trans folks in, in someone's personal life, you know, really impacting their professional work and comfortable comfort and competence and ability to work with train students. That was something that was really, really interesting. And it makes us think, you know, how are we, you know, how do we interact with folks that we, that we know, in our personal lives? How does that impact us in our professional lives? And in our work? You know, just an interesting question that comes up. So you know, the, the other piece that we found two was school counselors who have, you know, who had worked with trans students in schools who had worked with trans clients, who had been exposed to working with LGBTQ folks in their internship, or their practicum experiences, obviously, that contributed to increased confidence and competence. And so these pieces of like we were speaking to before, how do we incorporate these experiences, you know, we can't guarantee some will work with a trans student, for example. So this gets tricky, right? We can't assign a trans student to a cat to a school counselor training, right, these kind of things, but how can we open it up? So there is a possibility of that happening in all these ways? Are we making sure that we're sending our school counselors and training and other counselors and training into affirming environments, things like that? So it brought up these questions that, again, highlighted really unique and kind of cool things? But also, you know, where do we go from here? I think that is where I continue to find places to to conduct research. I think, also, you know, one of the biggest things that I'm coming to realize now and in learning continuing to learn is, is the importance of including trans and gender diverse folks in as part of the research team, and part of those doing research and in conjunction with, you know, with cisgender, folks, is very, is important. And, you know, so that's something that, that we see in different types of research. But I think that's something that we're we're finding as well, that's going to be a really important part of continuing this research. Having those voices on board through our research processes as well. You know, we're also looking into kind of exploring the experiences of graduate students who are gender expansive, and gender diverse as well, in counseling programs. So, so we have some stepping stones, we have some places, we have some places to start, I think, you know, you asked aspirationally, at the very at the very beginning about where, where I would see this, and I think I think there's, you know, I would like to see more training, I think that standards, we have, we have a lot of standards out there, we have a lot of competencies, so to speak. You know, I think we need to see those looked at used, revised when needed, you know, biggest piece here is that language is always evolving, identities are dynamic, and evolve evolving. Oh, and by the time you know, several years later, after I'm done with this dissertation, language has changed. So looking back now,
I might use different language now than I did then to describe someone in something and so that's I think, that also speaks to professional school counselors, remaining open to new ideas and being open to change and also having some responsibility and seeking those opportunities and knowing about those changes themselves. Obviously learning from students, right, we learn and we we grow, but staying on top of that, and knowing knowing the dynamic, you know, way of language and how that can shift. And I learn all the time for my clients and students. And also it's it's very personalized, individual lies, right and so what what one client or student that I work with might call themselves or used to identify themselves with right might not be the same for someone else. And I think that's also important. For, for school counselors, so now it's you
know, one thing that I'm hearing is the importance of this kind of active ally ship where, you know, it is yes, it's, it's, it's a critical competency to, to engage in kind of lifelong learning and opportunities for information gathering in this area and about this population. But aside from that, I also hear you just talk about the importance of also hosting trainings and doing kind of more of that systems advocacy. And, you know, it's, you know, we see ourselves as counselors and you know, in also professional school counselors as positive change agents, right, that's part of our overall professional identity is not just, you know, we're not just a person treating people, we are also, you know, folks with a job description that Rick, you know, kind of calls us to this larger advocacy. And yeah, I guess through all of the stories that you just shared today, I'm really getting this this full sense of, you know, how do we take this kind of micro level work that we, that we do with these students and expand it to something larger than us, you know, larger than our practice larger than our school, and really create change in the community. And you've offered a couple of different examples, like, like hosting workshops and trainings. But I wonder if there are other areas that folks listening to this episode today can get involved in doing kind of larger scale? ally work or activism work?
Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I love you know, I love people asking how can I get involved in a way that can be supportive, and advocate for and with, you know, trans students. And I think for me, you know, in my experience of working within the communities, it's always being open to having these conversations, and continuing to have the conversations. So whether that's seeking out people in your community, who, you know, you are aware of our allies, you are aware of our affirming and have knowledge with, with trans students, and having some conversations with them? You know, I think, again, geographically, it can really depend on what services are available. And so, you know, I know some places have counselors really getting involved in their communities in a way of like a volunteer position. And I know other places that have no such resources. And so advocacy looks a little bit a little bit different, and confused, sometimes, you know, can feel frustrating or can feel also very, like intimidating to think how do we advocate at that level. What I found is often by advocating at these small in these smaller ways, so to speak in these microwaves or in modeling, modeling appropriate behavior modeling, ethical affirming, space, you know, holding that space for folks, I think, doing those things over and over, being open to growth being open to change, I continue to find myself in spaces where I'm able to advocate so I might be invited to, to speak somewhere, I might find myself
on a podcast
Advisory Council for a local, local hospital. And so there's ways you know, to make an impact that you know, that that can be that, that can be important and can help can help change. I think, you know, as if you're a professional organization, you know, you feel as a counselor, professional, mental health, mental health professional, that you don't feel, you know, you have that outlet with your, with your organization, you know, maybe seek support with an allied field as far as what that looks like and see what resources they might have. And so, you know, a lot of times we're looking at the helping professions together. And I think that's also a helpful way to look at this advocacy as well as how as helping professionals and professionals in general providers of services, how can we work together right and what whatever that whatever way that looks, even with research, things like that, where we can reach across kind of work, work that way. You know, you might find that having a conversation with a medical professional provides knowledge to them that they never knew. And you know, vice versa, kind of sharing things. And so I think, again, having those conversations are, are really important. And that's really why I love this platform as well.
Thank you so much for that response, I'm sort of just listening, I, you already got my mind kind of working out new ways that I can be that I can be involved in my own community around around just some of these ideas. So thank you for that. I guess as a final kind of send off, I'm wondering if that just you have any tips or words of wisdom for people who are just getting started, maybe if we have some, some listeners that are in a counseling training program right now, and are looking to get involved in working with trans and gender expansive kids and teens? Any maybe quick words of advice that that you found helpful for you and your career path?
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question, I think something that was told to me by a supervisor, once, you know, when I was I was working with the trans client was ask your client or your student, instead of kind of assuming after they tell you their identity, or, you know, again, going one place in your mind and kind of putting them in a certain box, to ask them what their identity means to them. And so I think, for example, you know, this supervisor, you know, this, this, this client will say, they were, you know, a trans boy, and my supervisor said, you know, ask them about, you know, what is, what is being a boy mean to you? And what does that look like for you, and tell me about that experience for you, and allowing your student or your client to really share that with you. And listening to that, and really, really validating them in that space is, is just like the most important thing you can do. And so I think that's something that I want to, they want to push forward is really just sitting with that client or that student. And again, allowing them you know, so hearing that allowing them to be heard, perhaps for the first time. And then leaning into that, and wanting to, and being curious about that, or them and you as a counselor, or training remaining, you know, continuing to be aware of what's going on what you're thinking, but really waiting open and working past working through those assumptions and biases of gender and gender norms and stereotypes and the binary system of gender. And asking a really client, you know, centered questions about their identity and exploring that with them. So we think, really just, you know, people can be fearful of like, What do I do? What do I say, and sometimes you using that space, to just ask them very, you know, I mean, specific, but also just very kind of open questions about them, who they are, can be, can be really can really enhance their growth can really change someone and, and, and for the better, so, I think that's like one small piece. Again, I think, you know, outside of additional training and seeking, being responsible for seeking that out and follow standards, and consulting with others, and using affirming services and resources within your community, those small pieces, I think, are essential when working with trans gender expansive folks,
I feel like we're ending on such a hopeful note, because I think a lot of times, at least in my work with students and certainly talking to peers and colleagues, sometimes it could just feel really daunting to, to take that first step into either specializing or first step into doing more formal advocacy and what you just shared that sometimes the most meaningful action that you can take to support and affirm trans and non binary students, clients and people is is just to be that person that is curious and, you know, there to learn and to you know, have created The space for that conversation to unfold without assumption and without judgment, I think that that's just such a powerful notion to come back to, or it's just like, we can do this every day in our practices every day in our schools, and can make some of the most incredible change. Just simply, just simply by being an affirming person. So thank you, Dr. Clark. Ausloos You're such a joy and it's just such a wealth of information and and wisdom. And the show is is better to have you on it. So thank you so much for being here today.
Thank you, it was a pleasure. And I hope that you know, I hope this leaves our listeners with something to think about and some movement forward in some way to you know, better better these spaces for for our trans students. Yes, and
to that point, we are going to be adding some links in the information of this episode so you can learn more about Dr. Ausloos work and maybe catch some some resources that are that are specific to this population. So Alright, thanks again, so much, Dr. Ausloos. It was great having you today.
Thank you. The Thoughtful Counselor is Desa Daniel, Raissa Miller, Aaron Smith, Jessica Tyler, Stacey Diane Aranez Litam
and me, Megan Speciale. Find us online at thethoughtfulcounselor.com. Our funding is provided by Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about them at concept.paloaltou.edu. The views and opinions expressed on the thoughtful counselor are those of the individual authors and contributors and don't necessarily represent the views of other authors and contributors, nor of our sponsor, Palo Alto University. So if you have an idea for an episode, general feedback about the podcast, or just want to reach out to us, please drop us a line at the thoughtful counselor@gmail.com Thanks for tuning in and we hope to hear from you soon.
