05 230719 Bulling at Work - Accountability and Defensiveness

11:23PM Sep 20, 2023

Speakers:

Meredith Holley

Megan Goering Mellin

Keywords:

accountability

workplace

math

talk

people

space

agree

bullying

work

defensive

create

actions

feel

power

charge

describing

happen

called

situation

drama

Today we're talking about bullying at work, sorting out the accountability in a situation where you may be experiencing harm in a hostile work environment. What do we do when we encounter a bad apple? What do we do if we're worried we're the bad apple either in general, or if we say something, whether you are facing a bully or worried you might be the bully. What do we do? And how do we think about the space? The answer to these questions lies along the pathway of the topic of accountability, or third pillar of account of empowered communication. We started by talking about boundaries and all their nuance. We dealt with reprogramming hegemony in the last episode. And today, we are talking about what we mean by accountability, and how this third pillar can simplify the process of dealing with and disentangling next steps when we find ourselves in a confusing and hostile work environment. Meredith, some people when they hear accountability, think it's like the lazy people, police coming to say that you have been shamefully negligent and not doing your homework or what you should have been doing. sendings we think accountability is about proving who's bad so that we can discard them, and make it clear that all the bad things are their faults. However, you have this other viewpoint on accountability that is not just neutral. It's like it's mathematical. What do you mean, when you say, accountability? And how does this fit into the Empowered communication toolkit? What do you mean by accountability is math.

So accountability, to account comes from the Latin word for to count? So the word itself means math, it means something measurable. So I think, like, sometimes people will say, I had a mentor who would say, there's math, and there's drama. And the math is not drama. So if you feel drama, then you're not looking at the math. And this, this is like a business advice thing. So a lot of times people start businesses and they think I'm failing, I'm failing, I'm failing, I'm failing. But if you look at your math, your math is actually working. It's just not working at your brain's level of what should magically happen. But accountability is similar. If we feel charged about a topic, it's difficult to take accountability. If we think that our identity is wrapped up in a topic, who we are our values, our worth, as a human, it's difficult to look at the math of Did something happen? Did I take actions? Did I get a particular result? In the impact model? We look at it as did I take an action? And what was the consequence? Did I not take an action? What was the consequence? As a literal? Yes, or no black or white checkbox? Did this happen? Or do I disagree that it happened.

And they feel like you're also kind of saying or like when I hear count accounting in this way, I kind of view like you're making a T chart, there's a line across the page, and there's a line up and down. And on one side is my job, like my stuff are my choices. And on the other side is your choices. So like one of the things we talk about fairly frequently is situation you found yourself in, where somebody is putting their hand on your shoulder at work, and you're not being Pernod. And it's like, I think sometimes we end up in those situations where we feel threatened and small, thinking like, Oh, my God, like what have I done to deserve this? Like, you kind of talked about how you found yourself not respected? You're like, Oh, my God, like, I don't know, do I deserve to be or do I belong? All this stuff? But the accounting in this situation is actually wait a minute, what are my choices? What are someone else's choices, someone else is choosing to put their hand on your back? Like that's what's happening on their side of the column, right? Your side of the column is the impact model, right? How we think how we respond or how we don't respond, probably out of training him in your back is on their side of the line, right? That's the math verse. The drama is like, Oh my God, if I've been magnetizing, this behavior, all the negative messages that we have received,

right? Am I wearing the wrong clothes? Am I call? Am I causing him to touch me? Am I just so bad at my job that I'm being abused? All those

are questions I notice like in a way that they show in our head and in this example, their questions and the questions are kind of like these are the days of our lives, like Will the family make it through this turbulent time where the grandmother is having an affair with the hairdresser's son like they're, they're at cliffhangers right that's the drum, but we in accountability, we're called we are like boiling it down. We are getting it on the paper, we are saying their choice was to interrupt the meeting screaming about how the problem with this workplace is that the women are taking over. Right? That's their choice. That's their choice. And my choice, for example, might be I sit there blinking and not saying anything, because I think it's best for everybody. If we just let this situation go away on its own, you know, that might be in mind. And so, should I have said something? You know, it's his whole Right, right,

right, right. I mean, and so when we, I think the most effective way to look at accountability and to make it math is to remove any adjectives remove any adverbs remove anything that is descriptive, so and make it as simple as caveman talk as possible. So hand on my shoulder is on his side of the line. I am not talking is on my side of the line. I usually when I think about accountability, I think about actions and consequences. I don't really think about thoughts and feelings. I don't think that we're accountable for thoughts and feelings, because in my experience, thoughts just happen. Like, it's like saying, I'm accountable for my blood pumping. Like, that's not really I mean, what are you going to do not pump your blood? What are you going to do not have thoughts? Like, we have random, ridiculous, absurd thoughts. All day long. We have misunderstood to

say, Never Gonna Give You Up. Your brain probably will say never gonna let you down. Like, is it our fault? It's never gonna turn around. And you know, like, you know, it's, it's no one's fault. It was no one's fault, but it was in my own head.

No, no, I think that is your fault. Okay, well, look,

alright, there's some drama, save the drama for the llama. Okay, because this is the math part. Like I said, what I said, all right, but you thought why you thought I live in a society is filled with Rick Ross. I mean, I'm making a joke, obviously. Yeah. But like, I'm with you, like the thoughts happen. That's, you know that. We put that over here. Let's bring this back.

under control.

That's so funny. I'm so glad that came up. Yeah, but that

is true. That is true. Like you get thoughts stuck in your head, you get songs stuck in your head, like our brains just pump thoughts all day long. I don't think that thoughts and feelings are space of accountability. I think actions and consequences are the math space.

Because also LEED projects people's feelings and thoughts all the time. No, it's like I can know about mine, you can know about yours. I can't prove anything about yours. Like, the logs aren't that good. So the thoughts and feelings kind of go if you imagined to two circles, or two sheets of paper, thoughts and feelings, go on the left side on a journal, put those in the journal. But then this accounting ledger is where it's like my Sif, your stuff, we're keeping it in KB and talk. And one of the things you say is taking the charge out of it. Right.

And you take the well, so the first thing so if you're looking at impact model, the imp, the imp, part of the impact model, that's what you take off of your accountability, Ledger, and then the AC. And you could even put the T in your accountability ledger because if you have a theme that's coming up a lot, then that might be a space where you have some like, Fool me once shame on you fool me twice, shame on me, you know, like, where you might have some ability to make a shift, you might have some room to take accountability. And when I think about taking accountability, I'm like, yes. Where can I take up power? Where can I take up space? Where can I make an impact, it's not a bad thing. Taking accountability means I own what I have done, I own the results I got. And I'm going and and I can make an impact there. So when we talk about neutralizing it, though, like just the simplest way to think about neutralizing is taking off the adjectives taking off the adverbs taking out any words that are charged, so if you say he needs to be accountable for bursting into my room and yelling at me, even though those are verbs, they're not they're still so descriptive and so charged. You kind of want to de escalate that and say, he stood in my room. He opened the door he stood in my room

there is a book that I don't know if he ever came across this there's you know, this like famous old book that's like the art The Art of War. Then somebody wrote this book called The War of Art Yeah, to like to make a story really sticky and like really scintillating. raise the stakes. Like that's what you do is you're like okay, we have sharks about sharks. We're like are snakes you know those snakes in the grass? No, they're Snakes on a Plane. Like little we did we elevated it I've only got a pop culture role today we elevated it it's all on the sky like the stakes are higher and people can't stop thinking about it right? But then in this situation what we're going to do is we are going to land that plane we are taking down this day actually love if you missed last episode go look at last episode or click back through it we talked mares impacts model has, you just really break down the thinking in a in something that is triggering into this, you know, you look at the incident, you look at the meaning what it meant to you and the physiology what happens in your body around it, not to like get rid of it, but we like validate and like get curious about the logic of that stuff. Then the act is action like what does that body steak compel from your body? Like what's natural next flow, the consequence, then what happens and the theme like what this wretched. So actually really like, I think there's something really cute where you're like, there's the end. And there's the act. I'm like the empty demon that is tormenting us, like the torment goes on drama side. And the act is the stuff that like a little movie reporter or a reporter would be like, you know, the man threw the hat on the floor, or the man removed the hat. All right, fine, Caveman talk. So you're saying that one of the ways that we can be more powerful take power in the workplace is by sorting these two things out. And I want to address as you say that, but a lot of us until we meet you are like, Oh, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to take power in the workplace. I really like when people take power over me. But here's the thing about the workplace, when you are hiring people, you need those people to show up in their capability. And I think here we mean power with power for capability and ability to deliver. So to say, you know, even though we might have been trained that when we're in our power, other people might feel uncomfortable, when we have a job to do. If we are not claiming our power, if we're not claiming our capability, and standing in our authority, not our authoritarianism. That's not I'm talking about but if we're not showing up and fulfilling and fulfilling our role with boldness, then it actually is worse for the organization. It's worse for the mission, it's worse for the customers, it's worse for the company. It's like some of the lights in the house are dim, nobody's trying to go to somebody's holiday like display. And the third of the lights are afraid that if they shine too brightly, you know, they're gonna hurt somebody's eyeballs. That's not That's not the thing. That's my winter.

This is kind of a tangent, but I always envision this model of organizations of companies and of like, public entity, you know, nonprofits, that is kind of almost a nested version where each person's level of power, I say the word power, but it could, you could use a different word. But power means creating safe spaces and creating safe containers, creating thriving, not dominance, and, and oppression. Where power means nurturing

its vitality, we're talking power together. Yeah, we're saying This is Red Rover, are we holding our hands tightly like this? This is 100%, the five and that doesn't mean your power was characterized that way. And but when I think that is one of the hard realities that we need to get clear is that in chronically disempowering work environments, we're getting the wrong we're getting mixed messages, like, Hey, you got to do your job, but you have to like tiptoe around no doesn't work, I need to claim our power, we need to claim that being empowered is required for us to do and fulfill our job, it's a good thing. It's a gift to the company and the team. And that is part of what this accounting is allowing us to do. It's saying in this creepy situation, these are my actions, these are somebody else's actions. And then once we start to document that, like the math, we can start to talk very clearly about the impact it's having on the work environment. And that's very different than the kind of the, the drama of it, the high stakes of it, that sometimes can feel really unsafe to talk about our work. Like sometimes we don't really want to go to our boss and be like, Steve is making me feel like I'm a grub in a cheeseburger, like how would our boss even respond? So I guess that's one of my questions like here in this accountability area. We know we're putting we're putting the the amp impacts meaning say psycho physiology, anything you know, the pain of it meanings,

physiology, right? Sorry,

incident meaning physiology. We're putting that in the journal, okay, we're not ignoring it. We're like listening. But then we're getting this other ledger of action consequence thing. Once I start documenting that, like in my workplace, and I'm like, Okay, let me think for example, I'm like, this manager is commenting on my appearance. That's one of them for me, because managers come To my appearance, I said I was uncomfortable. I said, I don't agree with that. That's what I did. But then I guess afterward, my journal would reflect that I was like, I felt super weird about that. ongoingly. And then I also didn't trust that person anymore. I mean, I guess maybe it's it's all journal. So

I would do that. I mean, this is why it is helpful to like, do the full journal, and do full impact models on it. But I would put that as probably, I would just put that in the imp side of things and not an AC t. So you saying I don't I don't agree with that, or I don't appreciate that. That's the action that you take accountability for. Also, ongoing, if you do it, like. So, for example, in my situation, I at some point, realized that about 70% of my brain power was being taken up thinking about my own safety and trying to navigate whether I was in danger or not. My work product at that point was not great. I'll be honest, like, I was so distracted, that I couldn't get things done on time. I couldn't remember assignments. I like I was not operating at capacity. So on my accountability side, and that's not to say it's unreasonable that that was my result. But on my accountability side, I can put demand letter not finished on Monday, demand letter finished on Wednesday.

And it's not blaming, that's the thing. No, no blaming over there. There's no self shaming. There's no I'm the worst. This is not self flagellating.

It just is literally counting. Yeah, it's just literally true. Hands on my shoulder. His side. Yeah. a demand letter finished on Wednesday. My side. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So then there we go. So we you have that ledger, right, you have that spelled out in your situation? What do you do next?

So I mean, in terms of communication, it can be pretty powerful to take accountability. And people don't really know what to do with it, honestly. If they. So if you ask someone. So for example, if you're in a work situation, and you're encountering a bully, a lot of times what we'll say is Stop, just stop describing me is like in your situation, like someone's just describing you every day. So you can say, please stop describing me, then what happens often is we've been trained to get defensive. So the bully then says, I'm just being nice. It's just a joke. What's wrong with you? I'm not bad, right? Like that. That's the defensive reaction. You just criticize me every day. And then if you are taking accountability, you're in a non defensive stance. This is another, another Byron, Katie, quote, but Byron, Katie says, defense is the first act of war. And it's a powerful quote, I think, because sometimes we do want to defend ourselves. Sometimes we do want to be in a war space, we do want to clarify reality, we want to say what happened. But when we notice ourselves, being defensive, when we notice ourselves feeling defensive, I always am curious if there's some place where we're giving the other person more power than they actually have. So in this situation, him saying, I'm not a bad person. You never said he's a bad person, you just said, Please stop, stop describing me, right. So he's now escalating it to where you, then if you want to take it, have the opportunity to explore whether he actually is a bad person he's kind of inviting you to, but we then often get defensive back and we say, nothing, you're a bad person, I'm not accusing you of anything. So then you have two defensive people kind of interacting with each other, which creates a lot of disempowerment and conflict, right?

Their worst nightmare. This is why we don't want to, we don't want this whole thing to spill out.

Right. And it's super common for that to happen. And it's totally makes sense to be afraid to say stop describing me. Because we don't want them to be defensive. We don't want to be defensive. We don't want to be in a conflict with them

or like or like they're like, I'm rubber, you're glue or they're like, well, you're describing me right now. You're like, yeah, there is no What do I even say you're like, I shouldn't have said anything.

Right, right, right. So if we can be non defensive, if we can notice, we can let it come up. We can feel the feelings. And then if we can shift towards literally what did happen, and literally what is the outcome that you want to have? Like just as a math situation, the day defensiveness kind of becomes silly at that point, like you can kind of notice, like, you're just solving a math problem. You're not protecting your identity or protecting who you are, or trying to protect someone else's feelings, protect the person who's describing use feelings, so that they don't attack you. That all is a lot of energy. If you can just literally look at what are the actions that I took? What are the actions that the other person took? And what is the outcome that I want? How do those match up? And how can we improve that you can enlist the other person to help you get the outcome that you want instead?

So I might say like, if you're like, Well, I didn't mean anything by it, and you're taking it the wrong way. I don't need to like bite on that thing, right? Because that's like a drama hook. And I'm not doing that I'm sitting over here with the math. And so then I can just continue to clarify the little answer that I went to my formula, which is called, you know, what I am wanting is to stop being touched. Right? And I'm just going to tell you, when I feel that way, you know, and that is what I'm practicing. And you it's like you're over there. Once one of my weirdest moments in life. This is a slight lie to me weird was like once I had a breakup with somebody, and I was really not excited. I don't know if you've ever heard this. I was like, I don't even know how to do it. And so I love to Google for stuff. So I googled and found a wikiHow article on how to break up with somebody, right? Basically like you, okay, you're so you, you go to their house, you say you don't do anything else, you just say, Hey, I think we need to have a conversation, you sit on the couch. And you say you, you basically say the purpose of this conversation is to discuss the terms of our separation, which is kind of a fire people. Well, like I realized this relationship is not working for any more for me anymore. And so I'm going to be adding the relationship, then According to wikiHow, you pause, then they say a bunch of stuff. That's even when it says there like they say a bunch of stuff, and you just be with it. Alright, you sit on the couch, and they're saying all this stuff. And there could be bantering or bartering, there could be all these different phases, and you sit there while the stuff is happening. And then once the stuff is done happening, you say, it's a really challenging situation. And I appreciate that this is not an ideal topic right now. And I just, this is what's right for me and my path. And then whatever they say, and then you stand up, and you leave the house. Yeah, that's what you do. You don't get into anything. For dinner, you don't stay for Netflix and chill. No, you've argue with

them, or so then the facts of why it's a good idea or justify yourself

or to the door. Yeah. And then when you're at the door, they may say things in which case you are present. And then you get on your bike, and you drive away like this is just clearly down I love like Instructables and stuff, it's clearly it out at the door, the person I needed to break up with at that time was like, you know, this was one we should, I'm really gonna miss your friends. I was like, That's so interesting. They don't really have tight relationship there. But I wasn't biting, right, you don't bite, I really, I'm really gonna miss your friends. Also, this was fun. And we should do it again sometime. And I was like, got it. And then I got on my bike. And I wrote for us. That is what I did. Why not? Because I knew what I was doing is because I read the instructable or read the wiki now. Thank you wikiHow. This is not a sponsored podcast, or media. Okay, and then it went away. So what I think this is what you're calling on here, you're like, No, when you do the communication, it is a structured process, because you have your accounting. And so what you're doing is you're saying, I'm going to have kind of a break of conversation, I'm gonna have a reshaping and commerce and empowered conversation right with this person. And I'm gonna say, I'm breaking up with your hand on my back. Hello, please do not touch me at work. And they're gonna say what they say, well, you're so sensitive, and nobody else has ever said that. And nobody else is uncomfortable. And I'm just trying to be nice. And this is how I do belonging to you said it, your intro to belong was your most important. And then in and you say, I realized this is a really uncomfortable conversation. But what I am really wanting is to stop being touched. Previously, when I haven't told you that I don't desire that while it's happening. You couldn't have known I don't know, maybe see something generous like that. And you see his point, or you don't even active but you're like that is that is really all I'm asking for here, Jerry. And then they might say other stuff like but I'm going to miss you so much. And you say I really get it. And then you just go to the copier, and you recycle your paper work. That is what you do. And then we just move forward

and sometimes sometimes in what they say that's defensive. They will say something like I would never describe you. That's not who I am. And then you can say back to them. Thank you for confirming that you're not going to describe I'd be going forward. Like, I appreciate that we're on the same page about this. If I notice you describing me, is there a way that you'd like me to alert you to it?

So we are being targeted, we are being specific, we are being intentional, and extremely focused on the outcome. And the goal, we are staying in the math formula, this conversation a plus whatever else comes back at us B equals C, the goal. So when becomes, we're like, that's fine. We're going for C, and then we are practicing not taking on any of the things that they say back, right? Because we have already done the accounting, we've already processed our stuff. So we know it's appropriate. If they're like, Well, you you take accountability, because you bumped into me and it felt weird six months ago, then you could be like, I care about that. And that sounds right. You don't have to get embroiled in it are being targeted and focused. And we are not getting involved in the drama, this is boundaries. That's the first principle. If they're like, people, like you were always saying this, you're Jewish, you're just like every other woman, we're like, A ha, the hegemonic, hey, you know, they're trying to bait me into agreeing that all people like me are doing all stuff, we're not biting their. And so then we are simply requesting accountability.

Sometimes you can, but sometimes you can say, Yeah, I think that most humans don't like to be described, that's something that I've noticed, I think it's probably true of women, too, that most women don't like to be described,

as we're seeing very, very observational,

and it's okay to agree with that, like, when we're in a defensive space, a lot of times we will disagree with something that we actually know is true. Just because we're in a stance of they have to be wrong, in order for me to get the result that I want, they don't have to be wrong, in order for you to get the result that you want. That's sort of a lie that we a lot of times believe they could be partially wrong, they could be all right, and still not willing to contribute to the result that you want. So at some point with the example of the please don't describe me. Boundary violation, right. At some point, they might say, No, I'm gonna continue to do that every day. And then you have to decide what actions you're going to take. So what how you're going to enforce that boundary, to protect yourself to still get the result that you want, whatever that looks like, sometimes people are not willing to sometimes we say, you, I've seen this with some friends that I have lately, where, like one friend acted in a particular way that another friend didn't appreciate. And the first friend said, Yes, I'm going to continue to act that way. So like, if you don't like it, that is okay. And that's valid, but that's who I am. And it's how I'm going to act. So, I mean, the classic example of this is like, when a kid comes out as gay, and the parents are like, Don't gay anymore. Like, unfortunately, that might be uncomfortable based on your thoughts that you have about what it means to be gay, but I'm going to continue to gay.

And so there's like negotiation and space sharing issues that come up there. And there is this, there is this outward dialogue on expectation setting. Yeah. And I think sometimes we get trained to fear, that kind of conflict, especially if we're trained that we need to be likable, deferential, et cetera, or else we're being difficult. But I think there is so much power and noticing that those interpretations actually belong in the journal part, you know, like that. We're being melodramatic. Whatever that goes in the journal part, this part is just about the behaviors. The other thing that is absent here from this conversation, is the thing where we're like, Man, I just, I really need them to understand my point of view. Because they might not, and that isn't your job, but you get to speak about their behavior. And then there might be other grieving that needs to happen. There might be other processing you need to do to say, well, this person is going to be this way. And, you know, kind of to your point earlier about the the infant the act, it's a little bit like what am I going, you know, what am I going to do next? Right? How do I need to feel? How do I need to experience my working environment? And how do I need How can I create thinking, that is my new practice to support me in doing that in a way that keeps myself safe?

Right, I had a couple of thoughts about what you like. One thing that I say to people I work with a lot is most of us are taught teachers have to like us in order for us to get an A plus, parents have to like us in order for us to be safe and that is true when we're kids Kids like, it is so, so fair. But when we're adults, we have a lot more authority and a lot more impact in our spaces. And sometimes it's not terrible for people to be a little scared of you instead of liking you.

Yeah, it's very easy to be like, think of somebody you don't like who doesn't seem to care? Do you realize how hard they are to get rid of your life? Like, it's actually pretty hard to guard them? Like they care about it's don't get fired if you liked them? Oh, there are difficult people who don't care if you like them. And they do. Oh, yeah. They keep working there. Yes. Yeah, they are trying to get everybody to like us, because otherwise we'll get discarded. And it's like, no, if you have an unlikable colleague, congratulations. You have an unlike ability tolerant workplace. Yeah. Like, it's okay.

I mean, you can also be completely likable and have people be scared of you. Because a lot of times when women talk, men are scared of them, when black people to other white people, yeah, white people are scared of them. But that's their own process of hegemony. That's their programming that says it's scary for someone with these characteristics to talk. There's really like, that's their job that's on their side of the line on our side of the line is how do I show up? What are the results I want? What do I want to create in my workplace? And who do I want to be in that space?

Yeah, there was a coach today who said, you know, it's okay to show up in your greatness in a way that has other people wondering if this is the right space for them. Like if they're if they're like, I will, no, you know, it's like that is actually okay. And being in our forthrightness, being in our accountability, and also directly requesting and prompting and correcting accountability, especially for our safety and respect, so that we can contribute what we're there to contribute, and we're being paid to contribute, you know, if someone else becomes uncomfortable for that, we can let them go through the work called, is this space for me? I don't really like being prompted this way. And that can be a growth opportunity. We don't have to shrink away,

right? Or is this space for me, I have all this like white supremacist programming all this homophobic programming that I need to deal with, like, that's there room for growth? Totally. Yeah, maybe

I need to take some time and medical leave to go and deal with these beliefs that I have. Or I'm ending up so threatened and defensive, because other colleagues of mine are requesting basic respect, and mutually negotiated standards. And I guess he needs to take medical leave in the future. Yeah, the people getting touched undesirably. It's the people who are like, I don't know why. But I think everybody else's body belongs to me, like, Can somebody please help me I need, I need to call the Employee Assistance Program, because my entitlement beliefs are creating alienation among my colleagues. That's a healthy work environment that is constructive for the company's bottom line and everyone's ability to produce power together.

I also think that it's not it doesn't, you don't have to be mean, in order to be clear, you don't have to, you can do all of this in integrity, and in the way that you want to show up. Like, it doesn't have to be alienating to anybody. But people may experience alienation based on their own discrimination and their own thinking.

Yeah, um, we're going to be clear and specific. And we It doesn't have to be intense, but it created can create a culture called from this point forward, I call it when I see it. Yeah, we can run small experiments like this right before going to the big Koopa. At the end of the Mario thing is like, Nope, we can do a little wine, we can see how it feels

like at some point, I just decided I want to be anti racist to the extent that I can. And that means that when I see something racist happen, whether I did it or whether some other person did it. Honestly, sometimes even whether I see a person of color, do it. I'm gonna say, Whoa, racist. Did you mean to do that? And that's just gonna be my commitment. Like, I don't have to be like, I now hate you. Like, I'm just like, that felt a little racist, what's going on there? Like, let's just call it label it at least, and then deal with what it means to invite the other person to also create an anti racist environment

and not let it go on unspoken. And this is one of the things we talk about. Sometimes it's just like, what is it like to be in an environment where the bystanders are super silent? And then how do we start as a bystander, you know, and just practice there and then get bolder and bolder about the the ongoing commitment to not be silent when it's not working. And that goes,

I think that goes back to what we talked about in the title of the episode of bullying at work. When we speak about issues, sometimes people will come to us and say you're bullying me because you said I was racist. You're bullying me because you said I was sexist. I do not agree that that is bullying. And so I am not going to say yes, I'm accountable for bullying you. I will agree that I said you were racist. And so I will be accountable that I said that, I do not agree with the characterization of it. Does that make sense? So I think that like, when we are dealing with bullies at work, when we're dealing with intentionally predatory or abusive people, a lot of times they will try to turn our clarity into confusion. And it's okay to just disagree with them. You get to not share reality with people, and it's not your obligation to convince them to share reality.

And I think saying I disagree, or like, or I will reflect on this, and I disagree. And then we end the conversation, right? It's like at the end of the breakup, you go to the door, and they get on your bike, and they say whatever they say, you move forward and we create space. But then when something like that comes up, you actually do get to go back and do the process again, right? We do the journaling. Yeah, we can reflect on like bullying. Ooh, there's charge in that. Okay, cool. Let's examine the charge. Let's get it all clear. The fire alarm is going off. There's feelings happening again. Okay, cool. Let's talk about bullying. What do we like about that? Well, we want to do and then we just run the accountability process. Again, we're like we said this, they said this, this is what it looks like. It sounds like what you're saying is you would like me to not tell you, when your behavior is harming the working environment? Am I hearing that correctly, and we just neutralize it. And we get it more clear, more specific, and more mathematical. And we find out what it's like,

you can even say it sounds like you don't want me to use the word racist in, in this workplace.

How would you prefer that? Yeah. Or like, how would you or I'm gonna

continue to use that word. And that might be uncomfortable for you. Like, that's an important word to me to use. For me, I'm, personally, I'm never going to if somebody comes to me and says, don't use the word racist in this work environment, I'm going to be like, That sounds hard for you. Like, that's uncomfortable. But I'm going to continue to do that. And you need to deal with your discomfort around that word. Because I think it's important for us to use that word. Right? I have to tell you, as I say, the story that I found out while you were talking, okay, so my friend's little daughter. She's like, really amazing child. She's like, she was, I think seven when this happened. But my friend was like, oh, you should tell me what happened at school today. Like, she'll have some good perspective about it. And, and so I was like, oh, yeah, that happened. And she was like, Well, my, this girl in my class, she has a very difficult home life. But that is no excuse for the way that she behaves. And I had, she was very mean to me today. And she would not stop telling me that I was doing something wrong. I forget what it was. And, and I was like, how did you tell her to stop and she holds her hand straight up, like at me, like just a full stop sign. And I was like, well, that's a good way to tell someone to stop did that work? And she was like, Well, I got in trouble for poking her in the eye. And I disagree with that. And I was like, Okay, I was liked it and her mom had come back at this point. And she goes, but she did poke her in the eye, right? And she was like, Well, yes. I agree with that. Like, you're a little genius. It turned out that she had held her hand out like a stop sign, and then bent her fingers.

Oh, is the same as workplace dynamics, right? Yes, the same thing.

So and I actually I love this story. And I also think that like slowing it down, backing out and gaining that perspective, just lets us see. Like when we are behaving in that manner, like we do not need to get embroiled into the tangle of it. It may not serve us maybe we need to I don't know. Like it may not serve us to get I

love drama, too. I'm not anti drama, drama.

Yeah, but it's like we can distinguish it. Okay, so this also kind of shows us where when it comes to bullies when it comes to some of these, these challenging topics in the workplace. The three pillars of Empower communication work together, our boundaries are reprogramming hegemony, Meredith is not agreeing that she's not going to say racist, she's like, actually, it's not in the scope of what I'm going to agree to. And if someone's like, Well, you're a harpy and a shrew like it won't have any power, because she's we've got a handle that we're practicing here on not amplifying antagonizing language toward ourselves and in said holding a space of respect and compassion and not amplifying like things like misogyny or negative messaging that disempowers people. And then the third one here, this accountability piece, we can always come back here, sorting out a from b. And then also sometimes we might need more support, we realize like for the pieces that are, we might say dramatic, but also might just say incredibly intense, yeah, charged loaded, trauma can come up in that space. But I think there is something really elegant about this process. Because sometimes it can feel very hard to find a therapy or a coaching resource that can help you with workplace trauma. And when we can start to just separate out and map the different pieces of this issue, it can be easier to say I need help processing a bunch of charge around something that is happening for me, versus coming and be like, What am I going to do about Steve at work and all this stuff, and there's so many layers. So this can be one way that we divided out to get the support we need? Meredith, is there anything else you would like to leave us with around this topic of accountability? And, and just, we, when we encounter bullying are when we're afraid of being called a bully or a bad colleague or an outlandish person in the workplace? Just Just what do you want people to remember about what's possible and being empowered?

I've been I think, one of the most important steps you can take is know when you need to take a break, know when you need to take a minute know when you need to separate, do your own work, to get down to the math of what's happening. And then know when you need to get support around that. Like I'm saying it in kind of a simplistic way. But like, for me, this has been years of actively doing work on this. And actively like for myself, in order to say I am someone who's going to use the word racist and workplace and I'm not going to not do that. That is years of me also coming to terms with my own white supremacy, my own like harm, doing unintentional harm doing, but harm doing nonetheless. And so when we need and years of getting support around that. So I think like, like no one you need to separate if you're feeling defensive, breathe, take a breath. Know that that's the space where you can neutralize de escalate, let things be math, and own what is yours in the math equation. But if you want at the workplace if you want, like if you're thinking about as a math equation, and you want the number four, and you're bringing it to and someone else is bringing a one, you can ask for them to bring it to or you can find another one to make the equation. And when I'm saying that sometimes the math is people do not get touched in the workplace. Sometimes the math is people do not describe each other in the workplace. So you're really focused on what you want. Yeah, sometimes the math is we bring in $23 million into the workplace. Sometimes, like, know what the math is of your goal in the situation, know what the math is of your actions towards the goal. And understand what you need to ask for, for the math on the other side, to get the goal that you want. And if your goal and the workplace goal is not aligned, that's an interesting space to explore. Like that's where creativity exists. That's where the like conflict can lead to something beautiful. And where you can like, let that conflict state a little bit to see what's possible.

I think this is so helpful and generative, and it is still only the beginning. We are going to continue to talk through some of the edges and issues around this. And so this is the point in the episode where we say share your questions and challenges. Where has it been hard to sort out your role versus someone else's in the workplace? Where is it hard for you to separate the charge from the math? Or are there any places in your life where you would like support getting someone else to take accountability where you're just stuck and you need? You need an extra year? Send us a message let us know your situation and we would love to tackle it with you on a future episode. Meredith how can people write in

at Eris, they can just go to Aris resolution.com/story So er ay s resolution.com story.

Send us your questions, and we look forward to hanging out with you again next time on power communication. Yay.