Ep 7: Let’s Talk About Teenagers and Sex: Finding a way to promote a socially literate approach to consent, sex, pregnancy loss, abortion and reproductive education in adolescence and beyond.

6:11PM May 13, 2021

Speakers:

Shelli Ann Garland

Caroline Lloyd

Keywords:

miscarriage

pregnant

women

research

abortion

talking

boys

girls

loss

teenage girls

participants

sex

stillbirth

grief

sex education

society

caroline

shelli

children

experience

Hello, and welcome to a dash of salt. I'm Dr. Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. Salt is an acronym for society and learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in Shall we?

Welcome to a dash of salt. Today I'm joined by Caroline Lloyd. Caroline is currently a PhD candidate at Trinity College Dublin, and she's hoping to submit her completed thesis before the end of 2021. She has been investigating the experiences of girls who get pregnant in adolescence and subsequently experience a gestational or neonatal death loss. Her employment background was in corporate business environments previously. But she also has significant experience as a volunteer, particularly with cancer and bereavement charities. Before we begin our discussion, I do want to say that the content of this discussion is sensitive and may have negative or trigger effects on someone listening. We will be discussing miscarriage baby loss, abortion, grief, post traumatic stress, forced medical and community interventions, and historical and societal interactions around baby loss that may be a trigger for you. Our conversation will be sensitive and professional. But please take a moment to consider opting out if you think you that this topic may negatively affect you.

Caroline, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and to talk about your research on adolescent development and the impact that baby loss has on young women across the lifespan.

Oh, I'm delighted to be invited. Thank you so much. Shelli.

So can you provide us with some background on yourself and about your programme of research?

I'm sure I'm, I have a long background in work, experience and voluntary experience that spans over 30 years, I've worked in the US and Canada and in London for many years. I'm obviously Welsh. And while I was concurrently working in all sectors, so charitable sectors, governmental sectors and corporate environments. I was a trainee accountant. And I started volunteering in a cancer hospital in Houston, Texas, back when I was in my 20s following the death of a friend of mine. And I found back then there was no without an internet or social media to look at to find any information on being bereaved as a young person, when you find his died, I found it very difficult. I was working in a corporate environment, studying for my accounting degree part time and then volunteering part time in a cancer hospital. So those three components are pretty much carried me through my work in life. And I'm now in my 50s. So I've always worked full time and volunteered part time. And now I'm combining both within my research. And it's just fantastic. It's just a combination of bringing all the things that I'm good at, I think and experienced in and leaving behind the stuff I wasn't so great at which is accounting.

So how did you become interested in this particular topic that you focused your research on on gestational and neonatal death loss for young women?

That's that's a great question. Thank you for asking it Shelli. I, for many years, I was a bereavement volunteer, decrease bereavement care, here in the UK, and as a somebody worked with clients, one on one and facilitating bereavement support groups, and also I was on the committee for my branch and overseeing the services that we provided. What I noticed is there's a real lack of information and training and we're required to do CPD so you do your initial training, you see clients and you're required to actually maintain your training and go on courses every year. And there is a real dearth of information on baby losses so miscarriage and stillbirth neonatal losses, I had no training on that. And it wasn't something that ever came up.

But I noticed in the counselling room that it is something that affects women. And what I particularly noticed, as an individual volunteer myself is, I would have a client who was affected by a particular death such as their mother had died. And then they would start talking about earlier losses and how they fed into that. So if your mother is the only person that knows about your stillbirth, like they that's the only person that you ever talked to and had a continuous relationship with and dialogue with from say, a stillbirth from 30 years ago, when your mom dies that connection is gone. That person who knew all about it was there for you and supported you it's gone. It those feelings resurface and it's Who am I going to talk to now and how am I going to continue the legacy of my my child that nobody knows about because years ago, when somebody had a stillbirth or miscarriage, it really was not acknowledged at all. And you wouldn't have any rituals. You wouldn't have any memorials, you wouldn't have any tangible outward recognise signs from that loss. And for a lot of women, personhood is determined from the time they find out they're pregnant.

And in their heads, they construct who their challenges going to be, and they have dreams of witnessing their baby growing up being a mother parenting that that child and what that child will grow up to be. So when when it's pregnancy loss occurs. For some women, it is as significant as the loss of a child in impact. And obviously with a stillbirth. There is a significant impact but that is more socially recognised whereas miscarriages aren't and I'd like to stress that the difference between a miscarriage and stillbirth is one second, one second. So it's called a miscarriage up to a certain date, and then you go into a stillbirth definition. So if it's different, it's different in different countries in different organisations. But if your cutoff point for a miscarriage is 22 weeks, once you go into the following day, and now you're in 23 weeks, it's a stillbirth. But if you miscarry, that before midnight, for example, now it's a miscarriage, but you're delivering a child, you're delivering a baby like he would be delivering a baby as a stillbirth. And that's significant and recognised. So that's where my interest emerged in. Why are we not? Why are we not recognising that there is actually a grief response. And it can be as significant as a child loss for some women, not all women, Shelli. And I think it's important to stress that for some women, it is not a significant bereavement. It's an event. And it is not a stressor, it is not a traumatic response. It just is a sad event or an occurrence. And we need to be mindful that in talking about baby losses or miscarriages, that we're not talking for all women, we're talking about specific women when it comes to grieve. And I think that tends to get lost in in cultural narrative in normal everyday narrative, particularly on social media. Women who are significantly impacted, are very loud. But then there are millions of women that are not significantly impacted. And they're not on social media talking about it, because they're not impacted. And I hope that makes sense. And that's where my interest came from.

Yeah, and there's something that you said there that that actually struck a chord with me and it's the, the idea of, you know, if that's something that I've gone through, you know, who can I find that that will listen empathetically and understands what I've gone through. I actually myself had a miscarriage between my first and my second son's, I was just at the 12 week mark. We had just told our family during the Christmas holidays, that I was pregnant. And I remember when it was happening, being in the hospital and listening as the doctors told me my HCG levels were dropping with every blood draw, meaning that I they, I was essentially, you know, tracking the loss of my pregnancy. And I was physically drained and I was emotionally devastated by our loss. And I also remember that although the doctors and the nurses in emergencies treated me very kindly, they treated my loss as like you said, you know, as something that happens all the time. With a nonchalant attitude like, you're young, you're healthy, you'll get pregnant again. But the truth was that I wasn't physically or okay or emotionally Okay, for that matter. You know, I had been told later that it was likely that I wouldn't have any more children after that had happened. And thankfully, five years after that miscarriage, I did become pregnant again, which took me totally by surprise, honestly, because I had come to accept that I couldn't have any more babies. And what the medical staff had said to me during my miscarriage, or my baby loss, you know, and again, nobody ever articulated that to me. I was never offered counselling, I was never asked if I wanted, you know, should I go and talk about it afterwards, it was go home, you know, put a hot water bottle on your tummy. And they sent me tattling on my way. And in what that whole that, you know, the experiences that I had really stuck with me for more than 25 years, you know, over and above the loss of, you know, my baby between the two, my two boys. So, you know, I think there's something to be said. for that. And obviously, your research looked more at mental and emotional effects of baby loss. And can you tell us, what are some of the impacts of gestational and neonatal death loss that emerged from your study? And are these immediate effects? Or do they manifest over time?

And yeah, firstly, can I say I'm sorry to hear about your experience, and you won't be surprised to hear that that's pretty common. And thankfully, there are plenty of charities worldwide, and now, and or unaccessible, via the internet, you can do a Google search, and social media, particularly Facebook is wonderful, it closed support groups, for all different kinds of deaths, sudden death, you know, miscarriage, death, baby losses, and so on, and so forth. And I've been within some of those groups, because I have been bereaved many times, in many different ways. So I have joined many of those groups, and sometimes to actively participate, but sometimes to observe. And that's certainly not to use for my research, I want to make that very explicit. But more to inform my practice as a bereavement counsellor so that you can understand when to have the client, perhaps, something I might not be aware of. And it's a great question, when I started the research, as anyone who's done a PhD knows, you go into it thinking it's going to be about something that you you've you've formulated, and but it actually evolves into something very different, in many cases, and that's certainly the case for mine. So I came in as a practitioner, I worked for other charities as well, including road peace, and I was interesting. And, and I thought I'd be looking at grief responses to see if there were grief responses when teenage girls have a some kinds of baby loss. And when I was designing the research, I included abortion, and I think it's important to recognise that teenage girls, when they become pregnant, they don't necessarily have a choice when it comes to abortion. And not only for political reasons, so they could be in a country where it's illegal. But also, because with parental control, parents very often take control of the the the child, their teenager, and take them to have an abortion and the teenager tends to go along with it, because they really don't have a voice or a choice in that situation. And they certainly don't have the agency at that age to really stand up and say, No, I want the baby if they're not able to look after a baby, you know, financially or otherwise. So, I think we just need to err that and recognise that teenagers who get pregnant, when they're and my definition with my inclusion criteria is while they're in secondary school, is it's not always a choice, and they don't always get pregnant through consensual sex, you know, and that's something we need to recognise. And that's something that came up in my research quite strongly. So I thought I'd be looking at do these girls at the time or later on as women because my studies retrospective, I interviewed and surveyed adult women looking back Do they have a grief response at the time or over the life span? And but actually, my design expanded. So that grief was only one small element of my study. I actually designed the research around Bronfenbrenner bio ecological systems theory some of your readers

Sorry, listeners will understand what that is. But for those of you that don't, I'm looking at not just the individual response. So the emotional response, I'm not just looking at the emotional response, either at the time or afterwards, but I'm looking at how other people interacted with them. So within the immediate environment, I'm asking them, did you tell your parents? How did your parents respond? I'm looking at how the schools treated them as teenage, pregnant teenagers? How were you treated? Did you tell them? Did you have any support? Did you not tell them? Why didn't you tell them? Did you tell any of your teachers? Did you have any information? And did sex education help you in any way? Or was it inadequate, because we have to look at why girls get pregnant in their teenage years, and how that occurs. And then I'm looking at the socio historical background to that. So for example, in Ireland where you are, and I'm at Trinity, so I'm looking at Ireland as a country example, when you're in an environment where women who are not married, or girls are sent off to a mother and baby home because they got pregnant, outside of marriage, or an array. And they had all of their choices taken away from them, and their agency taken away from them. And they were punished for daring to get pregnant, because of course, it only takes the girl on Earth, right. And that actually influences the way we look at girls and women now, when they get pregnant, or when they say they got pregnant in school back in 1966, or whatever. So it actually expanded out because we don't as individuals live in isolation. We live within communities, we live within social structure, social structures, and we live within finance, family dynamics, and their influence. And, and one of my participants was Irish, and she talked about the influence of her mother. And a lot of teenage girls become pregnant. And it from my research, what I found is a lot of teenage girls get pregnant, because they just don't know enough about contraception, or they don't have the confidence to go and get common contraception, or they're in a situation with the boy that they don't feel confident to control or to stop what's going on. So they don't feel confident enough to say something. So they end up having sex. And I'm not talking about rape, necessarily, although that did come in, I'm talking about what I would call consent blurring, which is, I'm with my boyfriend, I don't want to have sex, I don't feel like sex, I don't feel confident, we don't have contraception, I'm a bit worried about getting pregnant, but he's laying on a bit thick and telling me he loves me. And it's pretty much and I feel like I'm better. Or you go along with it. But you're not really wanting sex. But you don't want to say no to the boyfriend. So there's a lot of that. And, and in the end to current to my research. And that's what happens a lot with teenage girls. So this is all the whole structure of my research isn't just looking at the grief reaction, though, I think that is important.

And what I found is with the same with teenagers, as with adult women, my research results from the questionnaires, statistically went along the bell curve, which is pretty normal for any experience, you get some people on the extreme end that are adversely affected, and they have what we call complicated grief. So they've had an enduring and overwhelming experience that just hasn't gone away. And that's carried through their lifetime, around this experience. And that can occur after abortion as well. Not just miscarriage, although is more likely with miscarriage. And then there's a normal range where Yes, there was grief at the time of varying levels that they adjusted over time, which is what we would expect with most normal people with most normal grief. And then at the very other ends of the spectrum with a minority is what we called post traumatic growth, which is where it was traumatic and it was very difficult. But they've actually taken that experience and done something with it, that that has changed them. And they've done something with their lives that they never would have done if that experience had never happened to them. So that is a normal distribution curve which we would expect with any population of Grievers. That is not unusual at all.

And what were some of the responses that you were getting to, you know, some of those questions in relation to the education or the the experiences with their, their, their families and that type of thing. What were some of the responses that you were seeing? And was there anything that was that really stood out for you?

Yeah, the the one, when it comes to education, what really stood out for me is my, I had one Irish participant who was incredibly articulate and gave me a huge amount of time, she was very generous with your time, and I'll be eternally grateful to her. And what she said, which I thought was profound, in a lot of ways. She said, The school is a microcosm, a reflection of wider society. So if you imagine your community, your social community, the school is a mini version. And I've never thought about it that way before I've always thought of it as an aspect of our sociological environment and a component, if you will, I never saw it as a little ecological system of its own. And that's what she was saying that was educators, you will you probably know that. And that's probably normal life for you. But for me, it isn't. It's a bit of society. And she said, it is a reflection of the society around you a bit like a, you know, an aquarium, you know, within an ocean.

And what really struck me and did but didn't surprise me, what she was saying is what my participants were saying, were pretty much a reflection of my experience, which is that with no access to counselling, no access to information. And when they did go looking for information, I only had one participant in in an interview that said she had a teacher form, teacher that was helpful, everyone else in the questionnaires. And in the interviews all said, they were not helpful at all. And in some cases, they were told it was their own fault. They shouldn't have got themselves into that situation to begin with. In other words, you know, you've gotten yourself into a situation where you were raped. So you you you pick up the pieces. And worse than that, Charlie, I had another participant, another one cutely articulate wonderfully, they will hugely articulate. This one was talent detailed the bullying that she endured, and she was she she was in a situation where she was 14 when she got pregnant. I'm sorry, I don't care what anyone says no 14 year olds is is able to consent to sex. I'm sorry, as announced that woman, I don't believe that you can consent to sex at 14 and we fully understand what you're getting yourself into. So she didn't know she was pregnant. Her mother guessed because she had all the symptoms of pregnancy took her to the doctor's. She was then taken for an abortion. It all was just a whirlwind.

And after somebody in the school found out she lived in a small community, so and then she endured bullying for years afterwards, where they would call her a slut and, a slag and a whore. And this young my participant who was now an adult woman, was saying that has affected her throughout her life. her identity is tied up in being a slut you know, and she's gone on to further education. She's highly educated, she's hugely articulate an incredible woman and very successful in her fields is saying the deep down I self identify as a slut until I relabeled myself met later on in her 50s now, Shelli, that just floors me, I have to say I can identify as a woman in her 50s who was bullied in school. I can identify with that because it doesn't leave you. If someone's telling you something over and over again in your formative years when you're going through such a difficult psychosocial transition and adolescence is a difficult time. With all the biological changes the fifth, you know that physiological changes combined with the psychological changes combined with the sociological change, you're going from the comfort and joy of childhoods and being thrust into adult responsibilities and dealing with all the pressures of your sexual development and what that entails. And as a woman, we are blamed for our quote, unquote behaviour, but boys are well You know, he's just a boy, you know, it's okay for them to explore. And, you know, and get out there and, you know, become men that were supposed to um, and in Ireland, as in America, you know, this, this, this real sociological, and determinants that applied to women and we and they have to be a saint or a sinner. You know, there's no there's no medium here, there's no Shades of Grey, there's no nuance, you're either the archetypal, you know, married stereotypical Irish man who, you know, who's who's the pillar of society, or you got pregnant and your own words, and therefore your sweat, you know, your thing to your centre, and you'll be condemned for being the centre. But where are the boys in only this chalet? Where are the boys? And why are we not teaching boys about consent? Why are we not teaching boys to have more respect for women? And why are we not teaching boys to not view girls and women as saints or sinners, but to view us as human beings who are developing too.

Absolutely, and the whole idea of, you know, kindness and sensitivity, and instead of teaching just subject matter, in schools, from, you know, primary to secondary, and on rather than focusing solely on subjects and subject matter, teaching, you know, these the children's skills and adolescent skills and that type of thing, you know, we should be teaching them how to be sensitive to one another. How do you shake off an experience like these young women had had in the past, and, and, and create a positive, healthy ideal of yourself after an experience like that, because like you were saying, she, she's well educated, but at the end of the day, she still has to struggle with the idea that Oh, now I'm a well educated slut, I'm still aslut, you know, but I'm, I'm well educated, and to be able to get over those barriers and to be able to overcome the types of things that she overcame, but still have to deal with what that did to her deeply and profoundly is is an incredible thing to think about and to let that soak in and marinate, you know, words matter. And they do they profoundly matter in society. And the things that you say to people can affect them so deeply that it stays, and the way you treat people stays with them for years and years and years. And it's just such an ugly thing, you know, to have to deal with being the victim. But at the same time, are there consequences for those who you know, treated them in that way, there's not

One of the facet to that which came up in in with the interviews is, so the bullies Bullies can get and I'm not boy blaming, I want to make that perfectly clear. I'm not bully blaming, I'm not blaming individuals, what I am saying is that, you know, we really need to address what I call reproductive equality. You know, we don't reproduce on our own, we reproduce with boys and and it's all determined by behaviour and sociological standards and expectations, how we socialise boys how we socialise girls, you know, but we don't tell girls to avoid rapists. We tell boys not to rape, you know, and we're all familiar with this narrative, particularly when in the UK since Sarah Everhardt and was murdered, not too long ago. And so that narrative, that conversation is very much loud and clear over here. So, and I'm sure in other Western countries in particular, but one other thing I'd like to point out is the boys boys can get a girl pregnant while they're in school, and they can carry on with their lives unaffected. Largely, if they never turn anybody no one's gonna ever know. If we get pregnant in school, it's on our mat and we and we seek medical attention. So if we have an abortion, or we go for medical attention after, during or, or after a miscarriage, or stillbirth, it's on our medical records. And this came up in my interviews with with women who are older. So what they're saying is, you know, later on in life, you know, they sort of get themselves you know, they they move on with their lives, they become educated, they get married or what have you. And then when they do get pregnant when they're married or with a partner or even not, then they go for medical attention. And usually you go for your scan, don't you any pregnant woman knows you go for your scan. When you go visit usually too.

Take the other person. And they always say, Is this your first pregnancy? No, what if you haven't told that person? Or what if you don't want to tell that person you're raped at 14? One, if you don't want to talk about it? Well, now you don't have any choice but to talk about it. And that person is going to find out

or to lie about it.

Yeah, exactly. So you're either lying, or you're gonna have to disclose it. And, and so we're always, it's always there. That's my point, we can't get away from that we cannot avoid it is part of that it's almost embedded within our DNA, we cannot get away from it. But boys can walk away from that input in paternalistic societies. You know, there's always the stigmas that are attached to women, you know, more often than that are ever attached to men in so many different facets in society. If you if you'd like me to add in some another dimension, which I think you might find fascinating is one of my participants is in Uganda. And she told me, I think you'll find this interesting as a sociologist, what they do to teenage girls in school is they line them all up outside of the medical her, and at the Medical Centre, and the boys know what's going on. So these girls are around about 13 1415. They and their hundreds, hundreds of girls lined up imagine this. And they line them up, because they, they they go in one at a time to be prodded and poked by a nurse. by the nurse to see if they might be carrying a concealed pregnancy. So they they have to strip down to them anywhere, and you know, and they probe their breasts and they poke their stomachs and, and they're, and they're basically physically violated by a nurse to see if they might be pregnant. And if the nurse thinks they're pregnant, they're expelled from school, no parents are told.

So you know, that's a whole other conversation when you start talking about different cultures. And they have raised, they don't have sex education. So again, this participant was amazingly generous to me. They don't have sex education, abortion is illegal, they have no access to contraception. But they're only information when they're teenagers comes from the father's sister. So the aunt is the one that has to talk to them as girls about growing up. And what they're taught taught is basically how their bodies change during adolescent development, to accommodate their marital life. In other words, to accommodate having sex with men. So the bodies are see the narrative that your body is now changing, to be an object from man to pleasure himself with. And they're also taught that men are more superior to them. And basically, that they have to acquiesce to men's desires to make the men happy. And they're also told not to go out after after dark or at night, because if they get raped, it is their fault, because they shouldn't have been outside

The effects of a hyper paternalistic society

Yeah, yeah, so when you're talking about paternalistic societies in and again, there are degrees of variation there. So when you start looking at Uganda, and and their experiences, when she was prescribed the pill after her first illegal abortion, they didn't tell her how to use it. But they they told us that it would make her in fertile taking the pill makes you in fertile, and they didn't tell her how to use it. So she thought that you took a pill on the day you had sex. So of course, she got pregnant again, had a second abortion by the time she was 16 and blamed herself, and blamed herself at all of it for the sex for the pregnancies for the illegal abortions. She talks about women losing their lines, she talks about women losing their ability, their fertility, because of the illegal the ways that they were trying to self abort, which I won't talk about Shelli, because it is quite, it's quite harrowing to listen to, she told me about the methods that they use. And I don't think anyone needs to hear about that. But if ever there was a case for legalised medical care, that is it because we should not have teenage girls being subject to sex by men, and then having to deal with the repercussions of that. And also, when we were the reason why they're self trying to solve the board is because of the public shame. They are blamed and they're not allowed to be pregnant when they're not married. And you know, and they're in this this real, this this strike they call between a rock and a hard place. We're not going to let you have an abortion but men can do what they want with your bodies, and then you're going to be blamed for it. And we have an element of that here, you know, it's like, you're not allowed to get pregnant, we're going to penalise you for being pregnant, and then we're going to stop you from doing anything about it.

And these experiences that you that you talk about, you know, are just, you know, validation that proper education is so important, you know, properly educating, and not just women. Yeah, properly educating educators properly educating medical personnel and medical doctors, properly educating politicians, and lawmakers, you know, into these types of things, this is why this research and the findings from your research is so vitally important to be heard, you know, it isn't something that should just be written about, and turned in, argued at your viva defended, and then, you know, put stuck on a shelf and not disseminated, you know, it needs to get out to people, they need to be able to hear in these experiences, and, and, you know, look at some of these things that are happening. And one of the reasons why I am such a supporter of getting educational research out to the wider community and wider society, and why these conversations need to be had by people who are experts in, in these types of things. And, you know, this is your particular area of expertise, and, and your, these stories of your participants need to be heard. So that education can change, you know, so that these experiences become less than less than less than then hopefully, fingers crossed, disappear all together, you know.

wouldn't that be wonderful.

It would be I know, we all we're all shooting for a utopian, you know, world at some point or another. But again, you know, your research is vital. What did you learn from your research so far? And what do you hope that others will learn from it?

Um I, what have I learned so far, I think, the overriding my overriding message from from this, what I just said earlier, is until we have any kind of reproductive equality within society, and I'm talking about teenage girls, adult women, I'm talking about in the workplace, within school, and access to medical services, access to shared bereavement, parental leave, we have that in the UK, so the woman can can have the whole year off, or the man can have the whole year off. We have shared parental leave, we do have parity in in parental leave here. So until all countries, you know, and again, we're going back to utopia aren't we, until you know, all men are feel responsible towards their ability to father a child from a very early age. And women are feel confident in their decision making both prior to sex. And I'm talking about access to contraception for all, you know, and access to information for all access to medical services for all men, boys and girls, I'm not just talking about girls. And I certainly am not man bashing, I'm really want to make sure that that that that's very, very clear. I'm not blaming men for our situation. But what I am saying is the way we socialised boys can can be detrimental to what happens to girls birth. One of the things that really came up in my research, which I wasn't expecting, doesn't surprise me as a 55 year old woman is women can be more judgmental of other women than men. And, and I've seen this in as as, as she's worked in, in the corporate sector. I've managed a senior level in London for many years, and I've had large teams and, and manage a lot of people over 30 odd years.

And, I've always noticed men, whether they have children, or don't have children, whether they're married or not have married or not married, you know, they're just men, right? Women are always judging other women. And in terms of, if you're a woman who works and doesn't have children, you're one thing you're in one group. If you're a woman that works with children, you're in another group. If you're a woman that doesn't work with children, you're in another group. And those three groups are almost in silos. So you know, why are we Why are we looking at that group. If you're a stay at home mother full time Mother, why are you looking at working mothers and judging them for working? Why are you a working mother judge women who stay at home and things while they haven't got a brain? They don't know, you know, they're wasting their life, you know, why are we doing that to each other, and women that either choose not to have children, or can't have children? Is nobody's business? You know, I am fed up, I don't have children, I am fed up of having to answer that question. Oh, you don't have kids? You know, if it's your it's any of your business, it's not your business, whether you have children or not? How do you know if I can have them or not? How do you not know that I haven't had children die? You know, how do you know that I haven't had reproductive losses? How do you know that I just chose not to be a mother. It's none of your business. And I think this is something that doesn't happen to men. But it happens to us throughout our lifespan. And this is something that I've always observed, personally and professionally, like I say, as a senior manager, and certainly going up the ranks. And in my communities have always noticed it. But I didn't realise it with burlap. In my research, looking at girls who get pregnant. It's almost like our motherhood or lack of motherhood defines us. Whereas men are not defined by their ability to have children or not have children or whether they're fathers or don't have fathers. And that's something that I can't explain. And it's an again, it's something that I think warrants further research. Why do we do that? Why do we judge women? And why are women judging other women, on their on their on their status as mothers are not stat are not letters? Why is it competition, you know, or a judgement. And that's something that I found incredibly surprising. But overall, in terms of teenage girls, I think I do think we've made great strides with sex education. And I know we do in the UK, we have a new curriculum now. And our new curriculum over here does cover miscarriage. And it does talk about the commonality of miscarriage as you write these songs about earlier. And I do know from a programme that was on the TV yesterday that manacles has been introduced to sex education, because it is part of our biological development across the lifespan. And I think it's important that we talk about things like this, our biological, because it's all all tied up with reproductive ability, and the end of our reproductive life.

So I think these are things we should talk about, I know that there was a bill stuck in the Irish political system that reforms, sex education in Ireland's but when I was still there last year, because now I've left I've returned to England to live. And when I left, it was still stuck there. And with COVID, nothing, you wouldn't expect anything to happen. But I know that that a lot of work had gone into that. And I've hoped that that would go through. But again, it's very easy to write a policy, it's very easy to write the curriculum. But you know, what happens to it after that, you know, who's who's actually teaching it? How are they teaching it? What are the the methods, you know, and what what messages are going out to children actually in the classroom is what concerns me? And how will we socialising boys and girls? And how are we preparing them for that that developmental phase, which is difficult in and of itself? How are we preparing them for it? How are we talking to them about it? How are we making sure that they have access to the services they need? the information they need? And I think to be forewarned is to be forearmed. If you know you don't want to be in a certain situation, you don't put yourself in that situation to begin with. And I know from my research, that that pregnancy in adolescence occurs because of contraceptive failure or failure to plan. Obviously, that simple, isn't it? So how do we address that? And how do we talk about and also consent is an issue, particularly now because we live in a world where teenagers, what they're not even teenagers, their children, children are learning about sex through porn, because they have access to and very graphic and very violent porn and to them, they think this is normal, and they think this is normal because women are involved in these films. If women are going to participate in very violent porn, this sending a message to boys, that this is how we want to be treated when we have sex, and I think that's something we need to look at and have a conversation about as well is, you know, it's about talking to boys about when you know, that's adult material. And, and that is not how you should be treating girls. You know, that isn't what sex is all about. But as an adult, you make up your own mind, and you make your own decisions. And I think that's something we need to talk about 50% of my participants in the questionnaire is said they got their most important sex education information from their friends.

Now, that concerns me, because if the friends are getting their most important information from their friends, and they're learning, mainly from porn, you know that there's a whole there's a whole conversation around that. And most of them do not talk to their parents, their parents do not talk to them. And I think parents have a responsibility instead of saying that, schools are there to educate. Yes, of course, we shouldn't have formal classes on sex education, but parents need to accept responsibility for their children and their developing children as well, instead of not having any conversations with them at all. I just think that that has, you know, that's something that we really should be talking about.

Yeah. And I think we need to take the embarrassment out of sex education, and that sex education, whether done formally in the home, or sorry, informally in the home, or done formally within the curriculum of the school, it needs to be presented with competence, with frankness with honesty. And, and to be willing and open to answer any questions that your child, your adolescent, your teenager, whomever may have, without being embarrassed that that whole idea of of sex being embarrassing, it's a fact of life. Yeah, it's been around since the dawn of time...

can we not pretend we didn't all get here without some kind of form of sexual activity? Please, can we just stop

right and that idea of you know, get just learned to get, you know, listen, we go through public speaking classes, many of us who are, you know, go through formal education, public speaking at some point as part of your formal education at the same time, there should be some sort of education that goes along with, you know, how do you talk to your, you know, your children, or your students about sex, and again, with frankness, with honesty, with sensitivity, with kindness, to make sure that consent is, you know, an important element of, of, you know, the act of sex and that type of thing. You know, so yeah, there's, there's definitely so much work that needs to be done.

A lot of boys are blaring, the consent issues, and they don't realise it. So it's not that they're deliberately, you know, raping girls or having non consensual sex with them. It's that they don't realise that, you know, because the girls don't have the confidence to say, well, not now, thanks very much, because they're still at an age where they don't have that maturity and that confidence level, you know, so I think that's something we need to make police more aware of is, you know, just make sure, you know, and like you said earlier on just that, you know, a bit more, I think we need a bit more emotional awareness, you know, a bit more consideration. Oh, look, you know, how are you feeling tonight? You know, how are you feeling? What do you reckon? I think there should be a little bit more of that, coming into play rather than just an assumption that because they're your girlfriend, they're going to want to have sex when you do, because the girl goes along with it, and they don't realise. So I think if we aired that a bit more. I think that's a bit more of a, we raise awareness of that. Yeah. Just make sure they're in the mood when you're in the mood, to know what I mean. You know, I think that's something we need to recognise.

So Caroline, what are some instances that you're aware of, of people or organisations that are getting it right, and and those who haven't quite got the memo yet, when it comes to adolescent development and baby loss?

So I think there is an institutional within all societies I think, institutionally, it's embedded. If I come back to the the the idea of a saint and a centre, women are perceived to be good or bad, you know, you're either a hole or you're, you know, you're you're a Madonna and we need to knock down perceptions out of every society, in my opinion, we should just be women, we should be humans, we should be individuals, we shouldn't be judged. Because we had sex or we didn't have sex. And very often that sex is non consensual sex or act rape, you know, and, and I appreciate there lots of dialogues and concepts within that, that idea. And so I don't think you can point to one institution, or one culture, or one charity that's doing good work or changing the narrative, I don't think that's happening. Personally, I just don't see that happening. I haven't seen evidence of that happening anywhere. So you know, I would like to trigger that change in some way or another, to further research or setting up a social enterprise or aligning with somebody or contributing to something, and I'm not quite sure how that's going to manifest yet. But I didn't do all of this work over the past four or five years, to just walk away from it and do nothing with it. And so thanks very much. I got my doctor doctorate now, and I'm off now to, you know, sail the seven seas, I, these women have given me their time, their attention, their voices, and I promise you, I will do something with it. If it changes one girl's life, then I lived in what I set out to do. And I always think if you can have an impact on one person's life, that's your legacy. I'm not trying to change the world, I just want to change the world for one person. So that one thread is important to me, because that's one girl, you know, that one girl, that woman who who said, you know, throughout her life, she's self defined internally, and she didn't realise that I don't think until she was talking to me. I've always internally self identified as a slut, because that's what they told me and it's embedded in my brain. And, and I think it's, it's a bit like, you know, when you inject dye into a human before you take a scan, and it goes through all their veins. And I think that's what we kind of have to try and do with society is to change, we can do that through education, but we need the parents and the schools to be aligned, and they need to be aligned with the political system. And for you know, if we continue to politicise women's bodies. And if we continue to politicise medical services, we're doing girls an injustice. And I'm not talking about whether you're pro life or not, or pro choice. I'm talking about providing education, providing medical services, and taking every individual at face value, and listen to them and listen to their to their situation and provide them with whatever information or services they need, without judgement.

And I think this is where we're going wrong, Shelli, I think, you know, globally, particularly on social media, and in the news, we've become very polarised everything is good or bad. You know, this narrative that if you have an abortion, you're murdering your child is, isn't helping anybody. I like to say one of my parties, one of my questionnaire participants was raped at 14, she's never told anybody. She told me in my questionnaire, she says, I've never told anybody. And you know, surely when I read that cries, and I thought, No 14 year old girl should be raped, and feel ashamed that they were raped, and then had an abortion. You know, who are we to say she murdered? Something, you know, I just find that hugely massively offensive. And the idea that we have no compassion for a child that's been raised, and that we condemn them and label them for a lifetime. it to me is shocking, and I wish that we weren't doing that to girls. And I wish that we weren't doing that women and as I say, every person can, and if one person is feeling that way, and dealing with that, and and further, in a couple of my interviews, adult women and these were much older women in their 40s and 50s, following an abortion in adolescence. They had met them later on both of them got married. So I'm talking about two interview participants in particular, they got married and had miscarriages and they went through the whole blaming It's my fault. If I hadn't had an abortion, I wouldn't have had a miscarriage. And it's a legacy, you know, it's a legacy that they have to live with. And they carry on, you know, and as I say, boys don't carry that with them. It's not on the medical record. They're not called names. They're not held to account, you know, half the time no knows who they are, you know, it's always the Guild, you know, her name. Everyone knows who she is in school, but nobody necessarily knows who the puntative father is. So I don't, I think it has to be attacked from all angles, and just goes back to bronfenbrenner. We have to look at ourselves as individuals, are we judging? Are we judging? And why are we judging? And should we be judging? And we'd really should take responsibility for that as individuals and our narratives, and what we teach our children, and how we communicate with people around us, within our society, you know, what are we doing in the school to prevent this from happening? And how do we support girls who were in this situation without judgement? How did what how did they know where to go? and What to do? And one of the parents aren't helpful, you know, how do we how do we negotiate that that's something we should be thinking about.

I think schools or school should have a bereavement leave policy in general, all of them should, I would like to say that almost all of my participants, whatever their circumstances have all achieved, educational excellence, they've all gone on, almost all of them have third level education, they all have degrees, and one of them has a PhD, and several of them have postgraduate qualifications, they all hard from what I can tell fairly successful careers or very successful careers. So I really like to add in some positivity to this. And there was evidence of post traumatic growth in some of them as well. And I'm very pleased to say that some of them really took it the after an abortion, really dug in deep, and went and re engaged with education and thought I was second chance here, and have gone on to pursue careers that they might not otherwise have pursued, and are successful in and enjoying. And I think I really want to, to bring in some positivity to end the interview. Shelli.

Yeah, there's something for sure to be said about the idea of resilience in the face of past traumas, and past experiences, and and you know, how resilience and being able to overcome the way in which you may have been treated or again, those experiences those traumatic experiences that you would have experienced yourself. And then, you know, how you how you rise above and, you know, the resiliency that comes with it? And, you know, I think that it's important, again, to state how and how important, your researches for create not only just creating awareness for systemic, the systemic issues, and these culturally systemic issues, but then also what what do they do? What, how do you go to the next level? And what do you do with it Next, I know that you've published a book entitled grief, demystified and introduction. So what I'd like for you to do is just tell us, you know, what prompted you to write this important resource?

Oh, thank you, Shelli. And I will be writing. Once I hopefully pass my viva, I will be writing a netbook based on my research, and it will be an educational tool, it will be what I've learned what they've told me. And also I asked my participants for suggestions on what we can do differently. And I'm going to collate all of them in a new book. And I'm hoping to distribute it to like schools and government and parents and I'm hoping, and medical practitioners, and I'm hoping that we can share and raise awareness from this. So there will be a second book. So if anyone's interested in that, please, you know, keep an eye out because it will happen. And the first book was born out of the same for the same reason as the second book will be written is there just was no resources for bereaved people that weren't either technical, like textbooks. And there are plenty of fantastic books that have been written by by real experts in the field. But they're written at a level that most regular people wouldn't necessarily understand the language and or the technical terminology. And then the other books that are written within the bereavement fields tend to be personal stories. So if you don't relate to that personal story, You're not interested in reading about somebody else's personal story, there was nothing in between, you know, my nephew dies, he was three and a half he died from cancer. And also, you know, I had a separate one probably didn't say had pregnancy losses. And the first one was with a very late pregnancy, and as I say, gave birth to a child. So I just thought, what are the things that I wish I'd known and the things that I find it helping not only brief people, but professionals, like counsellors and teachers, medical professionals, police officers, we forget them. They're dealing with that every day, day in day out.

Yeah, and you know it, what a wonderful resource, I'll make sure that I put the link with this podcast, to the where they can find the book where they can purchase the book, where obtained the book. And I'll also make sure everybody that I put the link to Caroline's own professional web page as well. And I know that you shared a couple other resources earlier, you talked about cruise. And if there's any, any others that we have, I'll make sure that those are shared in it along with this podcast in there that'll be clickable when you when you get to this podcast. So all of those will be there for you and ways that you can reach out and get in touch with Caroline, if you're interested in her work. So there's definitely more to come from Caroline Lloyd, everybody, the future Dr. Caroline Caroline. So thank you, Caroline, for spending this time, we covered a really heavy topic, a really deep topic. But I think that we came out on the other side with some hope for change, and some, you know, some stories of resilience. So thanks so much for being on my podcast today, Caroline.

And thank you so much for your questions, and for allowing me to talk about this is something that, you know, a lot of people don't want to talk about, or they don't want to think about, particularly when they have teenage children, they don't want to think about them having sex. So what could happen, and the manifestation of that, but I think knowledge is power, you know, and the more we talk about things, and if we choose to, and then you know, one person at a time is all we can do and hope for the future.

Absolutely. Thanks, Caroline.

I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on a dash of salt, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Season with just the right touch of experts in education and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to a dash of salt on pod bean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.