You're listening to the thoughtful counselor podcast created in partnership with Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more at Palo Alto you.edu forward slash concept. To learn more about our team and find links from each episode, visit the thoughtful counselor.com. If you're a fan of the show, we hope you leave a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe now, with the show
Hi, everyone, welcome to the thoughtful counselor Podcast. Today I am here with Melanie Varney, which I'm very, very excited about. She has become my dear friend over the past few years. And I really just wanted to have her here today and have some conversations about what she's been up to what she's excited about and the overall work she's doing. So I wanted to kick it off first with tell me who you are. Introduce yourself. What should we know about you?
My name is Melanie varney. I'm really excited. I feel like this is one of the nicest things. Yeah, someone has invited me to do so. Yeah, super nice and sweet. My name is Melanie. I'm from Florida. Yeah, I've only traveled north enough to Atlanta. And that was icy enough for me. And now I'm back in the Florida heat. So yeah, I'm a tropical girl. I I got my degree in mental health counseling from UF. And then went to Georgia State for my doctorate degree, worked at a couple of nonprofits and universities and then landed in private practice now. Have a new puppy. And yeah, I like to read and take walks. That's, that's what I can share.
I mean, that pretty much sounds like living the dream. So without me Yeah. Yeah, I'm here for. Yeah. I love it so much. Okay, so started in Florida for Master's program and then went to Georgia briefly because we don't like cold weather, I'm assuming is that
actually I'm a liar. I love to I loved Atlanta. It was amazing. It wasn't that cold. It was great seasons. But yeah, I just haven't traveled farther north. So yeah, I just feel like that's kind of part of my experience just starting in South Florida. I'm in Central, kind of North Central Florida now. And then yeah, the farthest north I've gone as I Lana. So actually loved it there. But yeah, that's just kind of part of my regional experiences.
Right. So very much a part of like the faces southern. All of the redness of the South.
Yes. I don't necessarily, like identify with CSIS, but yes, I fall under that stasis category. And I don't maybe I was a member of CSIS at a time probably. Yeah.
So I had the pleasure of first meeting you through kind of this, like Georgia State clam, group ish. And I met you when you were a doctoral student and I was a master student so super excited to see you kind of transform and then become Dr. Varney. And so tell us a little bit about why counselor education why you wet kind of the PhD route.
I think two reasons. One reason that probably should be out there is part of it was just thought that high achieving maybe a bit of seeking praise ego. You know, there's some kind of some of that just high performing high achieving, like, kind of ego stuff. Oh, like Yeah, so kind of working through some of that stuff. There was some momentum that was pushing me in that direction. So there's, yeah, that but the second part of it, the more kind of freed up part of it was, yeah, I was interested in doing different kinds of things. I've been an emotional person for a lot of my life. So I I wanted to do therapy, but I also felt like I don't know that 40 hours a week will be sustainable for me and kind of hard. that understanding of myself before even getting into internships and things like that just kind of knowing myself as a sensitive or emotional person. So it felt like a PhD would give me a little bit more opportunity to do a little bit of this a little bit of that have more variety and choice. And was interested in teaching of course, yeah, so kind of one reason was a little bit, probably working through some internal tightness. And another part was a little more freed up and some genuine like interest and parts of it, but we're really attractive to me.
Yeah, I appreciate your vulnerability, so much in those reflections, because I feel like mental health brings us in because we are these deeply emotional, empathetic humans in so many ways. But then often the argument all the time is like, can I maintain my own mental health while also supporting like a full time client load? And I don't think there's like a perfect answer to that, but seems to be valid reasons why people would want the flexibility of a PhD or like what a PhD could offer in terms of flexibility.
Sure, totally. Yeah. And interestingly, or ironically, now, I'm full time private practice and actually feel more grounded, and in control of my emotions than I did when I was doing more in academia. So you know, some things that I guess were true about myself. But yeah, some things have moved and changed. And yeah, I do. And now I do do. Well, maybe not full time, I'm probably more close to like 75%. But it's the only Yeah, it's the only professional service I offer is therapy.
Yeah, in something else, you said is just how you're changing and growing over time. And so just the awareness of like, making maybe that decision as a Master's student going into a Ph D. program of like, Oh, I'm not sure if I'm ready for x. But then, just the evolution we go through and just how much our lives change over the years and realizing what maybe brought us into academia isn't necessarily as valid or isn't valid enough anymore for us to stay in academia. And I think that's a great testament to how we have to trust ourselves enough to kind of like, Have the faith or like, trust the process to realize where we end up is exactly where we should be.
Sure, yeah. And there's, well, because there's two things, there's momentum that can move us, or there's kind of free will or choice. And it's nothing wrong with momentum being what moves you in that direction. Like I was a very traditional student, and I went straight, undergrad, masters, PhD. Um, so I think I was probably like, 2425, when I finished. So there was just like, a lot of momentum moving in that direction. And if my, you know, free will, and choice lines up with that momentum, that's great. It's nice to have a smooth ride. But at some point, the momentum wasn't kind of where I wanted to go anymore.
Yeah. Yeah, so really disrupting that process through, like self discovery, self reflection, really just like getting to know who you are more. But then I also think the amount of trust and faith you have to have in yourself to realize like, okay, it's okay, that it didn't fit the first plan, I actually need to do something different.
Yeah, it was really scary. For me, though, I remember sitting in Jonathan, or was my supervisor at Georgia State and just lots of tears, lots of, you know, red eyes coming out of his office. Because I was really tormented, like, by this decision, it felt it didn't feel like a cognitive decision. I think I was trying to, of course, make it one and weighing out pros and cons. And I was like, using my cognition, of course, to try to think through but it was definitely like, a very, like, emotional, kind of deeper torma around whether to kind of stay or go. And I was really productive, like, so from the outside in. I mean, you know, I was publishing a lot. I was like, getting awards and getting a lot of recognition, positive reinforcement, but I was, you know, doing well, but definitely felt very like tormented internally about, like, how I wanted to move forward, like with graduation approaching.
How was that in that kind of that transition? Because it's like, as you're talking about, like, the publications and the awards, it's like, it's such a weird external validation of like, yeah, Melanie, you're killing the ACA. ever gave and then you're like, uh, but I'm not happy. Like, the process is like how things were showing up for you?
Um, yeah, I think I felt like, again, there was like a lot of ego stuff I think that I was still working through. And part of me felt like, well, here's this very coveted thing. A lot of people in academics, there's a lot of comparison, there's a lot of judgment, and I'm making kind of broad strokes, you know, obviously. So I think it fed, you know, my ego in a way that, you know, just like was online with kind of like childhood stuff, and whatever. So I felt, oh, I can be special here. And here's this coveted thing that people kill themselves, to attain, and hear a kind of able to do it. Whether that be publishing or presenting, or kind of whatever, I'm kind of able to tap into, like my type a side and like, get things done. And so I felt like, well, lots of people want this thing, and here I have it, or I can do it. And so that's it. There's nothing to discuss. But I think I've learned now and talk with a lot of clients, just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to, like there is choice involved. So yeah, I think I got to a point where, you know, just because I can or I'm capable, doesn't mean I want to, and that's a good enough reason in and of itself. I think for me at the time, that wasn't a good enough reason. I had to work to find other reasons. But looking back now I feel a little bit more trusting of myself that just simply not wanting to is valid, and good enough reason.
Yeah, I love that so much. Because as you're talking, I also was thinking like, just because you're good at something doesn't mean you should keep doing it. And I think that's where that choice and conversation comes in. But then I also was like really reflecting as you're talking of just how powerful like just the tokenism of being a woman of color. And then also just like model minority, like all of these stereotypes and things can integrate with our own processes of realizing like, yes, it is covenant. And it's such a privilege to be in this space. But just because I've made it here doesn't necessarily mean that I need to stay here. And it doesn't mean it's actually like the thing that's for me, or like the thing I need the most. And just the power and courage and strength to have that conversation and make the decision for yourself. And trust that the people around you who support you will still support you regardless of if you're like a counselor educator like Jimmy, you're still a counselor, educator, no matter what, you don't have to be an academic to be a counselor educator. But I think the conversation is so centered around academia that often it gets almost like convoluted of like, what that identity is like the identities the same, regardless of if you're an academic, academia, or private practice, or supervising or not even in mental health as a whole, like you went through this process, you still are one of us, and like part of this identity that shapes such a wonderful profession, and it should stay that way. It shouldn't be just like our wedding driven conversations.
Yeah, I think there was, like, one thing you said made me think there was a little bit of worry that you know, you're doing the work here in the cars. And then some guilt or worry that you're kind of choosing to top out and like leave, like leave everybody else behind in the trenches, and you're gonna like go seek freedom, not again, not just make, you know, like not to like overdramatize it. But you know, at times, it can be really all consuming to be in those types of systems. And so yeah, there was definitely some guilt with kind of leaving coworkers or friends. And worrying that I was just kind of like tapping out. But I think on like, I sort of didn't any likes I had to but I'm like many years later reflection. I just sort of kind of see how I have another way that I look at that now that it can make sense for me, I think at the time I needed, okay, if I leave, how can it make sense for me that I'm still doing the work, or that I'm still a part of like Because and so that doesn't make sense for me now. But that was like a dilemma involved with stepping away. Yeah.
Yeah, as you're talking, you said, it makes sense for me now. And I'm wondering, like, I am again, right? Like, I have the privilege of being an academic. But I'm not necessarily sure we're always doing the work. Like I really have a maybe a different framework to say, like, I really believe like mice, current students and internship from practicum. And like my colleagues, like you who are seeing clients every day, I really feel like that is actually the work like that is the work that keeps societies moving forward. As an academic, I have the privilege of hopefully offering deeper insights or new ways that we can do the work. But really, the work happens in kind of like one on 145 minutes, sessions are hour long sessions. And so is that kind of the battle you were dealing with? Or like, how did you conceptualize quote, unquote, doing the work or staying in the fight?
Yeah, well, I do two things. One, I think, also, at that time, my life, I had some things a little bit mixed up, I think I thought doing the work meant, as long as I was suffering, I was doing the work. Like, as long as I'm completely depleted, as long as I'm putting everything into it, as long as I'm doing ABC, then I'm doing the work. So to be fair, I had some misunderstandings, I think, like, as a movement, like, we've become a little dogmatic at times. And so, you know, some of it was that for me, but I do think, you know, in academics, and again, I was only a, I was a doc, not only but I was a doc student, so it is different than, like a faculty experience. So I can't, you know, speak upon that. But, you know, trying to push students who are going to become therapists to kind of understand, you know, like, to me, that's like a lot of work, you know, to kind of help guide and facilitate students to resist the university, and to kind of swim upstream, which is sort of what is involved, the current is going one way, and it's been going one way for a long time. And so it involves being upstream inherently, that is work in the sense that it's labor. And its labor for a cause. That, you know, you believe in around justice, and, you know, the most general form or progress and the most general form. And so, yeah, I did have an itch to do more individual work, work. And so then I was at a nonprofit, and I was, you know, doing that I was in juvenile detention centers. I was in homes, I was in schools, I was in the courtroom. So you know, I was doing some of some of that. But I think now, like where I've gotten to with, like, a work, I guess, is, like, I am the work. And so like, if I am free. Like, that is the work. And then when I'm free, whatever I do is is in respect of or an expression of that. And so there's nothing that I can't do. That's not work. I realize I'm sounding a little bit like religious. Yeah. Like, like undertow? There's no, yeah, like institutions I like and a number of that. Yeah. But it is spiritual to me. So and it is. Yeah, it is spiritual to me in that way. So, yeah, I've just kind of gone inward with it a little bit more. I think that's just where I'm not, you know, just, you know, existentially right now.
Yeah. I'm gonna come back to this because I wanted to kind of pinpoint a little bit so you can you talked a little bit about your nonprofit work and kind of being in courtrooms and kind of that other work. What was that experience like versus moving in now to where you are?
In some ways that that experience was really enjoyable work that I would like to continue to do. I mean, it's satisfying to feel yeah, there's a satisfaction with it. That this needs to get done. There's one situation where you have a family's utilities we're we're going to be He shot off. And you know, spent many hours kind of talking my way into and convincing for them to stay on. So some really tangible things like that. And that was nice, right, really sobering. You see how many dead end roads there are. So really sobering in a lot of ways, satisfying, in some ways, definitely got the opportunity to do really diverse types of clinical work like process oriented, but also action oriented, experiential stuff was pretty easy, because we were in their homes, or we were driving around or, you know, I was able to, like, pull over and, you know, take a teenager to the beach for a minute and do some ground, you know, just like there's a lot of freedom in that. organization itself, which I'm learning as a thing I didn't know, that was incredibly abusive. So I was there for only a year, not because of the work, but because of the, the environment of the organization.
Yeah, I think, just from hearing, even from some of my students, it's, so I don't know why it's shocking to me, maybe I need to do some work there. But it's like, it's still this falsehood, that if we're in mental health, and we're doing this work to support other communities, or just to help people be their best selves, that we are ourselves our best in, I just don't think that's always the case. And there's, in my humble opinion, too many stories of organizations that are just horrific. And I feel like the organization's and that system is the reason why people are now in leave mental health and not necessarily that every day one on one clients, meetings, or just that mental health grind. Often it's if you feel supported, if you feel like you have people behind you, or if you could even take time off, like just the general basic human needs that we need as clinicians, while we're also trying to pour that into the clients we work with.
Yeah, I think I'm falling. I mean, there, there was a, the organization was abusive enough, in my opinion that there was no secure like we we didn't feel safe and secure as, as employees. And so it limits what we're able to do. And this is where to I've seen in very whether that be in academia, whether that be in nonprofit, or other jobs is that sometimes organizations will weaponize your devotion to the work, that's what we're calling it right now, against you. And it's a way to kind of hold you hostage, like, you're gonna leave when these girls need you, this community needs to things like that. And so it can create a situation where it's hard for providers to leave those situations. Because they feel a sense of responsibility, of course.
Yeah, yeah, it really just highlights Earlier you said that, you felt like you had to suffer in order to do the work like to prove that you're a part of this fight or a part of the resistance that the suffered, like your personal suffering had to take place. And as you're talking, it just felt like so significant, the amount of people or organizations or whatever it may be that played into, like, wanting to see you suffer, like, Oh, if you're suffering, then it's you're doing what should be done or like, this is actually the correct way to do it. And as you're talking, I really thought about how that's almost a generational shift. Like I really do feel like millennials, and even now, younger generations now are like, like, Oh, I'm not going to suffer. I'm out like peace. But then also just again, the personal work that had to happen to realize like, I shouldn't be suffering, to be able to To do what I love most.
Yeah, and one of the, I have these like random little quotes that I've, you know, come across some of them I've read the full work or some I've just come across them, and they've stuck with me. But Audrey Lord, the Masters tools will never dismantle the Masters House. For me, I need it to make sense. Whatever I'm doing, I need it to make sense for me, when I read that, quote, that made sense. It makes sense for me, how am I going to contribute to ease the suffering of others to progress, and to work toward a sense of justice and freedom? When I feel repressed, stuck, captive? Whatever, you know, it may be. And so yeah, it made sense to me pretty quickly that okay, this can't, maybe this, this isn't going to be the way for me, it's not going to make sense for me anymore. And I also have things that like, lend me toward internal suffering, like, recovering Catholic and, like, you know, like, my tiger mom, who I love, but is. And I'm also a Pisces, we lean toward martyrdom, so you know, there's like, you know, things that, that come into, but But yeah, I do think there. There's a leaning toward, and it's not wrong, like there's so much to the time, it's overwhelming. So it's kind of like we got to get going, which isn't wrong. But yeah, I've just sort of eased up on myself, and feel that I'm actually contributing to a softer, more gentle world in a different way. That's more a little bit more embodied. And it does feel like it does feel like the work. So yeah, it just looks different than maybe, you know, I had pictured it. I also, as you're talking,
you know, about all of these aspects that make you who you are, I like it just brings me back to power fear a of just like, the reason why the oppressed become the oppressors is literally that like, this idea of like, I had to suffer, therefore, you should suffer or like, it was really hard for me or this past on elite, elitism of like, it has to be a certain way. And I feel like there just felt like this great energy shift of like, oh, there's also like, my family has an influence. And like my astrology as an influence, I also think about like, Enneagram. Like, as you're talking, I'm like, there's lots of things in my Enneagram, that very much explains why I'm the way I am right. And so realizing that there can be all of these non scientific things that make up who we are, that actually really plays into what we need to see in the future, but how we see ourselves in our future, rather than like bystanders to our lives, and so kind of like this coming together, like molding of who you are today.
Yeah, and, you know, for me, I'm into those things, but I don't. To me, it's almost a red, those are the things that I'm into, and have helped me understand myself. But somebody else that's going to be fiance's new album, or, you know, some show that they watched, but helped them kind of flip a switch to understand themselves. And it's all this to me, it's all the same doesn't really matter, the vessel, the vessel doesn't really matter. But yeah, just become more gentle with myself. And then, and then yeah, it's much easier to just make decisions that I actually want.
Yeah, I, unfortunately, haven't listened to be on this album yet to be that person. But, yes, I can think of just all of the little things along the way. It's kind of like, we're building our own, like, qualitative testimonials about our lives and like what makes us who we are. But then just the power of not forgetting that you have a story and like a pathway that led you to this moment, this interview, and how powerful it is as clinicians and just as people to remember that when we're interacting with each other at a certain given time, and in this crazy world that we live in.
I concur.
So shifting a little bit now as we move, past, academia, nonprofit, all of the many things that you have accomplished. Why private practice?
I was at a University Counseling Center first. And for a bit that was the dream really enjoyed it. Yeah, really enjoyed it. But as the pandemic happened, and probably to be honest, a little bit before the pandemic, but the pandemic became a pressure cooker for issues that were always there, and it just kind of let them all rise up and show themselves. And so it wasn't something I ever had a goal to do or wanted to do. But a lots of things kept not working out. Basically, I kept resigning from, from like, lots of I there was nothing else to resign from at some point. Yeah, I, you know, was kind of not interested in academics, I was definitely not interested in nonprofits. And then University Counseling Center didn't work out. And so I was, I think at that point, I was realizing my personality is that I think I'm very observant, and I think I can see what's happening pretty clearly. And if it doesn't make sense to me, by cannot and will not be the bigger person I wish I could. I've gone to therapy to try to learn how, and at some point, I just want to accept myself as I am, I will not be the bigger, bigger person, I won't be able to look the other way. I can't, I can't if the principle doesn't make sense. I just can't get down with it. I just, I will. I just won't, I won't let it go. And so yeah, I really just ran out of other options, I guess, but, but in like a good way, like, I think I ran out of other options, because I don't know that I had the, you know, pre emptive self awareness to know Oh, I actually really like working for myself, I like doing things my way I like having a certain quality of life and work life balance, I don't think I had that like, pre emptive awareness. So I think I had to run through these other options, and then eventually run out of types of employment. And yet other people had been also been doing it from the Counseling Center, I was out. So there were people, I could reach out to you to understand that the math, math, math ends up in our favor. So I do encourage a lot of people who are unhappy in like institutions or their positions, that it's a, it's a good option, where you can provide for yourself, I think I had a lot of fear and worries about like, feeling like it wouldn't totally be in my control or guaranteed or is it gonna feel transaction based, I've never actually collected fee for service before, I've always been either on a you know, like, a grant through the nonprofit or like, I've never had clients monetary transaction before. So also just intimidated about that process. So yeah, I had a lot of worries about it, but kind of found myself at the end of options. And figured, well, if if it ends up okay, I wouldn't like to make decisions that makes sense for me not have to go through a CCS, you know, to get one action item accomplished and 12 meetings afterward. You know, just kind of all that bureaucratic stuff. So, yeah, I found myself here. By default.
I feel like it's a great default, I and I say that because like, I've only experienced you in these unique moments of conferences when we're like, not necessarily as like, on professionally, right. And so I have only seen you as like, the most authentic version of that I know of you and you seem to still have that and you seem just as excited. And so I like that sounds like you have to this podcast, you're like just your work and who you are is incredibly powerful to the profession as a whole, regardless of what other people think, because really, we don't care what other people think to begin with. But yeah, so I think it's a great default, but also I realize, right, like, I wonder if some of the fear ends up going away when we realize that we've tried everything else and now this is actually what we should be doing rather than like, the nervousness of like if it will work out to begin with.
Yeah, definitely. And I'm glad that you feel like I'm the same because I feel wildly different. I, in some ways, but I feel the same, but I feel different in the sense that I don't hate myself anymore. Probably when I first met you, I had like a lot of anger. And maybe, you know, didn't always come out. I'm sure some of some of my old classmates listen to those, they'll enjoy that. Part. But yeah, so I feel a lot. I feel the same, except I'm enjoying myself. Whereas before, I was still this way. But I was kind of fighting myself, I felt like I couldn't enjoy myself as I was, I feel like I'm insane. But I can enjoy my there's nothing wrong with me, I can kind of enjoy myself. I forgot what your question was. But that was something I just was coming back to. No,
no, that was perfect. So now that your prayer practice, and you kind of got over this hurdle of like, WTF, what am I doing? How has it been? Did you start private practice, during the height of the pandemic, or kind of after, tell us a little bit about how you got off the ground and running
was about it was actually about a year ago. So middle, you know, height, middle, I mean, I still think numbers are high. So we're still in some ways, but it was 2021. I love it. It's amazing. It's really like increased my self worth as not like a not as a person, but as, like a professional and like, what I offer like to society, like, this is my profession, this is my service that I offer to society, and it's really increased my worth, I think, in academics, you know, it's hard, we're kind of at the bottom of totem poles in some ways, like with funding and social sciences, in general doesn't kind of get a ton of respect always. And then in nonprofit, worlds, two or three, basically, community based work, you know, everybody thinks they're a mental health therapist, you know, like, I mean, the things that, you know, Bob schmo would tell me what's going on with the child, you know, when they have no, you know, degree or training to do so. So actually, I feel the most. Like, I feel the most respected in private, I feel the most. Yeah, like, I feel that I feel a lot of respect in this type of role for what I do and what I have to offer. And that feels really good. I feel that I'm compensated, like fairly, I feel that I have systems, like, you know, billing programs or electronic health record programs that like, understand what I do, and, and are have very good quality products to support what I do, which feels good, like, I've been in jobs before, where it's like, I don't even have a quality system to like, keep notes. You know, it's kind of demoralizing as a professional to feel like, this is part of what I do. And I don't even have, like a note, like, I have to turn the computer on and off, click it twice, you know, pray to like 12 God's and then like, maybe the note will go through, you know, it's like, it's demoralizing, you know, as a professional. And so I feel like I have, like, just the basic necessities to do my job. Yes, I just like, I love it. I love it.
Yeah, it's almost the difference of being in a system where you're trying to advocate for yourself and like fight for your worth, versus creating a system that is based off your value and worth as you see it, and then having people show up for you and just support you and what you need. Versus like you tried to fit in to what other people think you need, right? So it's like, Sorry, that was super complicated, but it's just this, this feeling of like, oh, this is the first time I get to fully decide for myself what it should look like. And then I get to change my mind as I go and like adapt and grow. And the system that I've built is doing the same with me, versus like setting up boundaries or blockades for you to like, get that stuff done.
Yeah, wellness systems, not complicated. Like I need to keep notes. I need them to be secure. I need to accept payments. I need to send paperwork you know, I need a video platform like it's not I don't need a lot. But I will say like even at my university experience, which is like pretty highly funded, like, I like that list of four or five things I did not have. And I, so to have those out of the way, and be able to actually just go, just like, see your client, submit a note. accept payment, like it sounds, like obvious, but yeah, so a lot of things have. Yeah, it's we don't need all the time. It's not like my system is super intricate or anything. But yeah, it works for me and what I need, and I can just go on with it, then.
Yeah, so now that you're in private practice, like how has it been recruiting clients? What kind of clients do you work with? Like, really? What has this process like for you? And like, what have you learned over this last year?
Um, recruitment has been fine. I'm I'm on psychology today. I also have like word of mouth. I'm in a college town. So a lot of my clients are maybe faculty or staff at the university, some students at the university, definitely people and affiliated as well. Mostly, it was the first time I've ever seen people older than me. Thoughts been, like a total different older generation. So that's been a nice, fun, different experience. Um, everything else I've done has been demographic specific. So this was the first time I've there's no specific demographic. So I can see whoever comes my way and seems like they'd be a good fit. demand is high. Yeah, I haven't heard it may be regional, you know, me depend on where people are located. But I'm here. It's easy to fill up. At some point, the whole community fills up. And there's not enough services for people who are looking for it. But I don't do any marketing. Some people do do that. That was another reason I had straight straight away from it is that I don't have a business mindset. I don't have a marketing. I'm not interested in selling myself. There's nothing against, you know, doing the I, but I just it's not again, I just have understood myself enough. By now. It's not gonna I'm not good at that. And I don't want to be good at that. So yeah, it's, you know, it's, and we're also different than like, you know, we're not like an Etsy shop selling keychains, where we need high volume of orders. Like we're working with people. And so you know, we only need so much inventory. Yeah, sorry, first. So, you know, demand is high. Which, you know, is good for business, bad for society, but people are getting people are getting support. A lot of first timers, I think are happening because of telehealth. And just because of the conditions of life right now. So a lot of people, all different ages coming from very first time. Yeah. So that's been Yeah, all kinds of people demand is, is high. Clients are amazing.
So as you're talking about demand, and just I'm keep thinking about, like, Do you have a waitlist? How do you decide who you take on who you maybe discharge or terminate kind of that part of that counseling process?
I don't do a waitlist. I don't just because for me, part of it is I'm trying to create a simple format. So if I have openings, I means I have openings like I can, if consultation goes well, I can see you this week. If I don't have openings, I don't have openings. That does allow for some ebb and flow Some people prefer a waitlist so that you know like, for example, right now, I did have a lot of people close up all around the same time and so it does create that gap. But for me, you know, that's been okay. So, I don't do waitlist I do either I'm available or not. I have had very few clients not be a good fit for me. Where I wouldn't take them on after consultation. I think most people find me through Psychology Today. And the good thing about that is that I try to make my profile as like legitimate and genuine as possible. So I find that people who are interested in my profile, I'll probably be if they're interested in how I do things, then I'm going to be interested. There's some common threads there like personality. Wise, I tend to get a lot A lot of highly sensitive people. Just yeah, I think there's just kind of natural laws of attraction maybe that are happening. So there have been some people that I haven't taken on. That's, you know, a little bit of a learning experience, but it hasn't been too too much. Most people I take on, maybe we get started, and then some things come to light, and it's not a great fit. And then it's pretty easy to refer out. I stay in touch with them, make sure they get in somewhere. It's pretty, it's not. It's been pretty smooth.
Yeah, I just feel like you're killing it. I'm just like, This sounds so easy that I feel like I could do it. But we know that I can't do it. So I wouldn't say an academic. But I just love the story. You are just like it even though you keep saying in different ways that you're not like a business person, like you're running a business. And you have a fantastic business model that really fits your personality, but like fits the work you want to do long term.
Yeah, it is totally, I am totally running a business. I do feel that sense. I keep it as minimal in that way as possible. But I, you know, maybe it's overly like, optimistic. Or maybe this is like my dream or side. But yeah, it's nice that it does feel like if you're, I also think that because, you know, I'm happy with what I'm doing. I feel congruent with what I'm doing that. It comes that comes through to people who reach out to me and they feel comfortable, they see that I'm comfortable within myself. And they feel and then that helps them to feel more comfortable with me as well. And also telehealth has really helped a lot with referrals, like now we have the whole state. So if people have really specific insurance or really specific budgets, like it's helps a lot. Telehealth opens people up to they're not confined by their region. Yeah, I
realize that till like I've had such a good experience with telehealth. So I'm very much speaking from that view. But just the accessibility that we just didn't have before, it has just become enormous. And just the access, like it's still a barrier, right? Like, not everyone has video access or computer and all of those things. But I also think about just like the people you're working with, like faculty and staff, like they're not, they're people who deserve mental services, but don't necessarily have schedules or flexibility or are able to move around the even the state as much or their city to really get access to the mental health they need or what they want, right. Like, maybe they want more of like a diversity perspective, and they just can't get that and they're like, immediate vicinity. Yeah, well,
and part of the problem is people are seeking therapy is that people are feeling too tight. And so it's hard to just add another responsibility or place to be on top of that when they're already tight. So it definitely opens up. Yeah, it opens up more access. And it's, it's, it does for me as well, too. It cuts back on my drive times my transition times. And so yeah, I'd hope it helps the therapists to depends on your personality, but for me, it does.
Yeah, and I also think about just the power of confidentiality, like I know, so much of it can just be such a mental hurdle to be like, Oh, I'm going to a therapist and like someone's gonna see me or like, someone's gonna see me parked outside and then realizing that you can really cut all of those things out like telehealth does still have its things that we're working through. But I think it's been an amazing opportunity, especially again, for younger generations who really want the accessibility but not necessarily felt like one on one brick and mortar establishment that's attached to a lot of mental health services.
Yeah. And from like, the private practice business side, it also cuts back on overhead. I don't have to rent a space. And you get tax deductions on certain parts of your home office like a portion of, you know, your internet bill portion of this portion of that. So that also cuts back on overhead.
So we have a couple of minutes left and I wanted to kind of circle back to something you were talking about. You talked a lot in the beginning about momentum and and how momentum kind of led you to make these choices or kind of just being on this track or this fast track. And I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about, like how momentum has showed up for you, or even what it looks like for your clients when making those decisions? And then, like, how do we disrupt it?
The way that I'm even though momentum can be a good thing, the way I'm talking about momentum is probably like, the momentum that like, trauma can kind of create like, that moment. And, and it doesn't have to be, you know, that can be like a personal trauma in your life. But it's also like the collective trauma, like, collectively, we're seeing a lot of violence, we're exposed to a lot of violence. And that can be relational, you know, maybe physical, emotional, but also relational, you know, violence and things like that. So there's sort of a momentum that can push us toward trying to run from hide from that, and these are all really, like totally normal, you know, normal things to happen. For me, that disruption can come the way that I think that disruption happens for people is anything that would be upstream to that. So play, curiosity, stillness, being present. Laughter. You know, for me, it was some kind of specific moments in my life. Moments of insight, and understanding, that kind of shifted some of that for me. I don't know how specific Yeah, I'm speaking more like in themes, but even just the yeah, there's, there's so much more I could say, but yeah, I know, we only have like a couple of minutes. So I'll just leave it at that, I guess for now.
Yeah, no, that was perfect. Because it's, I just can't shake the shake the feeling that you're really pushing us to not just talk about self care, but like, actually engage in it. And really figure out like what works best for us. And then making sure that we're doing that as much as we're doing everything else. And so the, the disruption doesn't necessarily sound like a Oh, here's like a five step plan to like disrupting this path that you may not want to be on and said, it's like, I don't know, like, Stop, like, drink your coffee and have a meal without scrolling through social media, or like just doing all of these other stuff that keeps this like movement happening, even when you should actually be sitting still. And so I just keep thinking about just the power of being present and actually like fully being present, which means not engaging in multi tasking activities. But really just being with yourself in exploring who you are.
Yeah, wanting to take in the current like, for me, and this may not be for everybody. For me, the current academia would not allow for that. Like, it was not for me, it was not possible. Or some other positions I've been in or even this can be related to like, relationships people are in or friendships people are in, you know, if your conditions are so tight, that sitting down your nervous system is so heightened and it has to be so heightened that to sit down quietly to just eat your breakfast. Is feels totally unaccessible. Like I a lot of people are what how can I override that so that I can continue to have a heightened nervous system all the time, but then I realized that I have this problem where I can't sit still. If I sit still or as soon as I close my eyes to go to bed. My My thoughts are racing. Well, yeah, I mean, our nervous systems are not going to just flip on and off. And so if the current boosts certain currents won't allow for that and don't you know, I don't want people to shame or blame themselves or see that as a deficiency of themselves have like, I don't know how to take care of myself, I'm not good at taking care of myself. Certain circumstances, that's not available. available to the person. Yeah, so make sense. Yeah, I'm just,
you have showed throughout this entire conversation of how you've done that for yourself as just a clear example of the fact that it's not easy, we make mistakes. And it's not like a linear pathway. But even, you know, like, like, my favorite thing is that he's like, Oh, I resigned myself into my current position, like, it's okay to say no, and like change your mind and make these changes so that you can arrive in the place you actually want to be in. But don't let go of like the deep work, and the emotional process that has to happen in that for you, actually, to be who you really want to be at the end. Like you can't make these decisions without doing the deep personal work. And I think in all the work we've talked about, it really just comes back to who we are and the work that we need to do for ourselves so that we can actually do work for others.
Yeah, I decided like a very long time ago that I was very radical, and that I wanted justice at all costs. And I yelled and hollered and scream for a while. And then at least for me, I realized, oh, shit, I think at all costs, means that I'm going to have to learn how to sit still. And like, I'm going to have to learn how to, like just go for a walk. And that means I'm probably going to have to learn how to like feed myself, like, do I know how to like, get food together, and feed myself every day when it feels like everything else is more important. And now all of a sudden, for me, those things were far more radical than the things that I thought were super radical at the time. So I still see myself as like a radical. Like, rah, rah, all costs.
Yeah, you're arriving here for your radical illness, I feel like this conversation is actually going to make me go to therapy because all academics need it. Every therapy is for everyone. But you have just reminded us that the resistance starts with ourselves and we need to actually start with ourselves. So the last question I asked everybody is what is one thing that you would tell grad students are just students in general who are listening to this right now? One piece of advice or just one knowledge that you have to offer?
I think one thing I would tell grad students is what is is I would ask them to ask themselves what is the reason that you're doing what you're doing? Maybe it's that they want to feel that they're helping people maybe it's that they want to feel confident, you know, whatever it is, and understand that there are 800 ways to get there. That's what I would tell them this is one path whatever path you're on right now is one path and it genuinely makes no difference if you get there as a mental health counselor if you get there as a counselor educator, you get there as a dog walker, if you get there as a mother you know the mother if you get there however you get there is totally irrelevant. But just know what your what your what is your goal, which usually is a feeling somebody's trying to bring in peace, maybe peace, things like that. And check in with yourself. Is this path getting me there? Don't just feel that well, I'm already on this path now. So I have to take it. Sometimes we start a path and we don't realize it's not leading us where we want to go. There's many paths that will get you there doesn't matter how you get there. But know kind of what you're working toward within yourself of what what is your what is your goal within yourself and what you're trying to get to open up options for yourself. That's what my advice
Yeah, just so powerful. Thank you so much. So again, I'm talking today with Melanie varney. I am such just grateful to have this friendship and to call you my colleague more than eight most anyone else. But again, this is DISA with Melanie and we are on the thoughtful counselor podcast. You guys have a great week day, whatever you're listening to this and yeah, I hope you find some space to take care of yourself and to prioritize what you need most by
the thoughtful counselor is Deza Daniel, Raisa Miller, Aaron Smith, Jessica Taylor, Desi Diane Ananias. Leto and me, Megan speciality. Find us online at the thoughtful counselor.com. Our funding is provided by Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about them at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept. The views and opinions expressed on the thoughtful counselor are those of the individual authors and contributors and don't necessarily represent the views of other authors and contributors, nor of our sponsor, Palo Alto University. So if you have an idea for an episode, general feedback about the podcast, or just want to reach out to us, please drop us a line at the thoughtful counselor@gmail.com Thanks for tuning in, and we hope to hear from you soon.
