to children as offenders. And they've taken advantage of the fact that children are spending more time online, and often unsupervised. And since the onset of the pandemic, the center has seen increased online activity related to online child sexual exploitation. So from excuse me from March to May 2020, the center has recorded approximately a 36% increase in reports of suspected online child exploitation attributed in part to the increase in viral media and a tangible increase in self exploitation cases. So we also anticipate more reporting of child exploitation offenses, both online and offline. When the pandemic related restrictions are slowly lifted, and then the children will access have access to trusted adults, once again, and access to their teachers access to caregivers, community support services, it was largely limited at the onset of the pandemic, and so likely preventing children from reporting abuse to the trusted adults outside of their home, which is such a crucial part. Your question in regards to minister Blair, reaching out to the RCMP, whenever huge, for example, when this came to rise, the the increase in child exploitation, we're always having a conversation about the things that we can do to prevent them. So obviously, we're looking at legislation. We're looking at the mandatory reporting act. We spoke about resources, we spoke about technology. We've talked about things within the acts, how can that improve law enforcement? How can we better reach out to law enforcement? Okay, thank
thank you, commissioners. So give, I'm assuming that you have followed this committee, and are well aware of the clear instances of hundreds if not 1000s of victims of child sexual assault, material rape, human trafficking, non consensual images, I am confident that you're as disturbed by the victim's testimony as each and every one of us are so without any specifics whatsoever, can you can you confirm whether or not there has been whether or not there is an investigation into mind geek and, and whether or not any charges have been laid?
Thank you for committee is looking for clarity on the investigational status. And generally, unfortunately, we don't comment on whether or not an investigation or an incident is under investigation. And obviously, the main reason is, we don't want to compromise the investigational steps or crucial evidence and data is just so it goes comes and goes so quickly. So we really do try not to compromise that. But what I can say is that specifically in regards to Pornhub, or mind Geek, the call for a criminal investigation is under review and any further action that's required. So we've been working with police with jurisdiction in that case, and if there is the necessary information, that leads us to launch the investigation, the investigation will be launched unequivocally. And if that investigation gives us the evidence, to lay charges, those charges will be laid, I tell you, there's no more committed people than in law enforcement when it comes to child and sexual sexual exploitation.
So I guess from your answer, I can deduce that no charges have [been laid], you can understand how deeply disturbing, that would be to every single Canadian listening in given the years during which children and women against their consent have been victimized and re victimized over and over and over. So can I just ask you really simply what the hell is going on then? How could it be that undertaking an investigation is under consideration right now, and there have been no charges?
Well, investigations such as this are very, you know, they don't happen over you know, overnight, and there's always obviously gaps in the information. So what happens is, for example, when we get reporting, we have to make sure that that, especially when we're talking about child exploitation, or sexual exploitation, that those those files fall within the age group of a child. So that's one challenge. So often we get several reports. And unfortunately, they don't fall within that category. So of course, they are put to the side and there's a whole science behind that. And there's a lot of work that goes into just identifying the ages online. It's not an easy science, but it's based on the maturation and it's based on experts that have that training. We also. Sorry
pardon me, I'll let you finish that thought. And then we're going to go to Mr. Dong, apologize for Commissioner.
Yeah. And we've taken the reports that we have received from Pornhub, Mikey. And many of those reports fell into that category. And the ones that didn't get brought to the police have jurisdiction immediately. And those are referred to go into further investigation. And as soon as they meet those thresholds, and then the investigation is completely launched, and then the evidence, it takes a while to get through the evidence, of course, and then once we have the evidence to lay the charge, the charge will be late. And then that's when it's made public.
Thank you, Commissioner. Mr. Dong, we'll turn to you.
Thank you very much, chair. Commissioner Lucki, thank you very much for coming to the committee and answering some questions. First thing first. When the story broke, it raised a lot of tension in the public. And I've been getting a lot of questions from my constituents from dama de north, asking that if they ever encounter a situation like that, or any evidence of child being exploited out, what should they do? So I'm hoping that you can tell very quickly, a little bit more about the national child exploitation crime center, and does it provide 24 hour service? Or what kind of service now what the what any member of the public can do if they if they sense that there's crime taking place?
You're sorry, thank you for that question. No, I was just trying to take that. Obviously, when people are privy to that information, they need to go to their place of jurisdiction. First and foremost, we work with the obviously the the national child exploitation crime center. And we have tried to connect that center with industry because having increases and it increases the education in from industry. And so they are mandated to address the online child sexual exploitation. They are available 24 seven, they're there. They work to try to get voluntary compliance from industry, but they also provide that service. As soon as they find things that are coming to that come to their attention that they can bring to law enforcement, they quickly, most readily bring that to law enforcement. And then we help law enforcement. If it's not our jurisdiction in our RCMP jurisdiction, we make sure that it is brought to the police of jurisdiction, and we assist in any way that we can. Okay.
Well, you you mentioned the industry as to a voluntary report. But as you heard earlier, and there's been a lot of questions about is, is the law sufficient in terms of making those requirements to industry, business, and they know their responsibility in in protecting the kids. So, you know, going forward, my recommendation is that as we need to complete this study, if you have any suggestions on how to strengthen the legislation in di aspect, we'd be happy to hear about that. My other question is that, I believe that there has been reported that since mid last year, the RCMP has received in excess of 100 reports related to Pornhub through the National Center of Missing and Exploited Children. What process? Obviously, I'm not looking for specific, specific investigation, yet. There's investigation. What were the process and when RCMP received these reports?
Thank you for that question. Obviously, the report through the National RCMP national child exploitation crime center, and when they received those reports, and also we receive reports internationally through the National Crime center in the United States. And we take those and we ensure that they are referred to Canadian law enforcement agency. Often we'll put together an investigative package of weekend and we bring that to our agencies. And if and once they get that then they can initiate an investigation.
So
I'm, we heard from a lot of members, there's a obviously questions about juristische dictionary responsibilities, you know, is this a Canadian company subject to Canadian law in your opinions, Do anything that we can do to make it more clear that, you know, these things are so this investigation can take place? Because obviously, we've heard that there's a lot of evidence out there. But there hasn't been a investigation being launched.
Yeah, it's it's such a complicated issue, because as you know, the application of domestic criminal laws and territorial limits, jurisdiction is been a challenge given the global nature of the internet, which is not bound by the traditional borders. So international conflict law is such a complex matter. And so it's very difficult for the RCMP to monitor and ascertain compliance with the mandatory reporting act, particularly in the cases where the companies have a complex international structure. And the data is stored in multiple jurisdictions, those services flow through the internet, and they transcend international borders. But that's where having strong partnerships internationally, and with the virtual globe, the global, sorry, the virtual global taskforce, that's where they exchange that intelligence and they exchange it, the data takes place. And that's where we can maximize and get, you know, sort of bring those, get rid of some of those borders, so to speak, because we have to make sure it falls within.
Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I did want to give time for the answer question to be answered. We'll go to Madame Goudreau now for the next two and a half minutes. Thank you, Mr. donor.
We won't record. Good morning or good afternoon, Miss Commissioner, I have a few short questions. Given that there's been an increase in calls for help over 100,000 to actually given how hard it is to conduct an investigation, can we get a number from you? How many? How many investigations were held in 2019 on anyone who came forward asking for help?
Thank you for that. In 2019, there was 11,376 investigational packages that were sent to law enforcement agencies of jurisdiction within Canada and abroad. In addition, approximately 63,000 reports were forwarded to law enforcement primarily internationally as investigation, investigative leads, there's no real requirement or police of jurisdiction in Canada or for international law enforcement and DOD to advise the RCMP as to whether or not they commenced an investigation, or based on the investigative packages that we give them. However, through our partnerships with the NC ECC, we're aware that there have been many of the packages have led to successful outcomes.
We have civil Cool,
thank you very much. I have another question. Given that you are restrained sometimes by the law, and given the international context, do you think it would be possible to create a structure or to give more powers to authorities to make sure that this problem which moves faster than the law does?
governments tend to increase budgets. But in your case, do you need more resources, more financial resources? What exactly do you need? Perhaps it's something that committee can put in its recommendations to help you. And do you think some kind of international structure could be put in place to help protect children? Thank you very much for your question.
Obviously, we look at it multiple things we look at first of all legislation, we have the mandatory reporting act as the minister of the Medi spoke about, we have to look at compliance within that act. And it has to be more inclusive of all the service providers. It would be very helpful, of course, to have basic subscriber information for that, because that would lead to quicker responses and more fulsome responses. Increased resources never hurt. So I would never turn down increased resources. We also have to look at technology because technology for instance, I'm not sure if you're, we've I think earlier you spoke of the arachnid project. And that's using technology that's for children, but that we should be using the similar technology for adults as well, something that can scour the internet. And it can take those images down multiple images because even if we hit one service provider, like a Facebook or Twitter or Pornhub, that image gets downloaded to other platforms and other platforms and And it, it grows exponentially. So the only way to get rid of all that is to have technology scan and scour. Obviously, we need mandatory reporting of online harm, we need that those steps like the minister spoke about to preserve that evidence. And, and having that content removed in a timely manner as per what the minister had said. So all of those are very important. In regards to international, we always need to be speaking about international with our international partners. And it's interesting that you say that, because when I talk with the Five Eyes partners, obviously we're talking about national security, we talk about terrorism, but we talk a lot about child exploitation, because it's such a, it's a growing industry. Like one of the statistics that just, you know, shocks me is, since their project arachnids, which scours the net and takes down images, or requests for images to be taken down. As of April 1 of this year, it has sent over 6.9 million requests for removal, like that's that number is incredibly huge.
Thank you, Commissioner, we'll turn to Mr. Angus now for the next round of questions. Mr. Angus,
thank you so much, Madame lucky for joining us today really appreciate it. I'm looking at the briefing note that was given to you on December 10, I believe 2020 subject New York Times article, the children of Pornhub. And it's interesting, because you talked about strong partnerships. But what really struck me when I was reading is it said, the RCMP strives to maintain partnership with private companies. And in this case, we're talking about Pornhub, mind geek geek as these are effective, and supports the company's voluntary compliance and adherence to its own terms of use. So I'm wondering why when we're talking about whether or not criminal acts have been committed, that the RCMP is, is interested in supporting voluntary compliance, and the terms of use that are put on the website by the company as opposed to adhering to Canadian law?
I think thank you so much for that question. I think it's, it's all about a combination, because there's the legal side. And there's the regulatory side, which of course, so we don't deal with the regulatory side. But let's face it, if we can get companies to voluntarily comply with the regulations, then we are so much further ahead. And I know that we've been working with the companies, especially through the NC ECC, we've been giving, sharing best practices of other companies who also have it, you know, obviously have it right, are doing better. We discuss mechanisms for reporting, we provide the awareness and the education of the mandatory reporting act in the first place, because many of these companies aren't aware of that. So it's a combination of Okay,
well, thank you. It's just I guess what was shocking to us it committee was to learn the data never actually complied at all or, or, or brought forward any under their obligation on the mandatory reporting act. But I bring it up because, and I know you can't deal with specific cases. But I want to talk about a survivor that reached out to us who's an adult survivor of non consensual abuse, because we've been talking about children. She's had numerous conversations with the RCMP and she's logged them. And in an April 6 phone call with the RCMP, the RCMP told her that Pornhub can't be charged because they're under a blanket waiver. And the survivor said, 'Do you mean their terms of service?' And the RCMP said, 'Yes, the terms of service state that they are not liable, and it's the user's responsibility.' And this is a survivor of non consensual sexual assault. I know you can't speak to specifics, but it says it in your briefing notes, the terms of use was identified. And this is what a police officer is telling a survivor as to why they can't bring forward their case. Why is that?
Well, I would never suggest to any law enforcement that a survivor should not be bringing their case forward. They absolutely should be going to their place of jurisdiction, bringing that case forward so it can be properly reviewed and investigated. It's It's so important. And obviously that reporting is important for the companies. But it's also important for the survivors to come forward so that we can follow the leads and make sure that that is properly The problem is
the earth. Thank
you, Mr. Angus, this drinkies your time unfortunately is up. I did want to offer the opportunity for an answer. And so that was an extension on the time. We'll go to Mr. viersen. Now for the next round of questions. Mr. Pearson for five minutes. Yeah, thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank the commissioner for being here today as well. Probably stick in the similar vein as Mr. Angus, just around. Mine he appears to have close to 1000 employees based here in in Canada. If If I see sexual exploitation here in Canada, regardless of where it originated from, would I not have the duty to report it?
Yes, but mine geek, the actual company mind geek is not all involved with its porn. Pornhub is at once a subsidiary and there's many other subsidiaries to mind geek. So I'm not sure many of those employees may not even be aware of some of that.
Okay. Lastly, if I, if you're sitting in an office building in Canada, and you come across child sexual exploitation, or you do No, you're not have a duty to report it, regardless of where it originates from.
Yes, any citizen just doesn't have employees. But any person in Canada, any person anywhere should be reporting it. Absolutely.
So mindi, as more RCMP document show that they met with mine geek in 2018. And Mikey, at that point, said that they declared that they didn't need to report to Canadian law enforcement because they weren't a Canadian company. Can you confirm that?
Yeah, when we initiate, when we had that discussion with Mind Geek back in 2018, they asked for support in relation to actually some automated software to assist in the detection of the online sexual exploitation material. And so the NCECC directed them to a third party so that they could get out of that type of software. We also at that time, it was raised about the Mandatory Reporting Act. And at the time, they had said that it doesn't apply to them because they're a Canadian company. But although it doesn't mean that they weren't reporting it. They were actually reporting it through the United States. And then now the United States. Well, they give us that information. And we've actually through Mind Geek have asked them to do a monthly report on what they report to the United States. So it's kind of a non traditional way that it should be done. But the bottom line is we are getting the reports.
Okay, but it this whole piece of jurisdiction still baffles me like why why would they not report it to Canada?
They believe that they're like the their servers that are applicable to this is they report through the ncmc mec that's operates in the state, which I can't speak to that particular legislation, however, like, what I will do is like there's a article too, and there's article three of the mandatory reporting act. I do have my subject matter expert, Mr. Andre Balu, who can give you a more fulsome response on that, because he's very more adept on the actual articles that they fall under.
Good day. So Mind Geek as further their the way the the company is structured, necessarily, it is unclear at the moment, if that company constitute to be fully Canadian or not. So the NCCC actually did have some communications, both with the NC neck Mac in the United States, and the company. And to prevent duplication of reporting, we actually were able to get those monthly summaries, and it actually helps us to assess the reports that are coming our way, so we can actually move those very quickly.
Um, Commissioner, have you have you read the letter that over 70 members of prominent senators have sent to the RCMP?
Yes, I have. And we do have a response. I will apologize for the delay. It isn't your traditional one page response. It is over. I think it's almost seven or eight pages. And we did have it prepared. It was ready to go last week until we realized that it needed to be translated. So the committee will be getting a response to that letter today. And we will, we might slightly delay it if there's any other outstanding questions as a result of this committee appearance. We'll add those responses to that. Okay.
Mr. Chair? Yes, no, you do have about 15 seconds left. All right. I'll see my time. Thank you. Thank you. We'll turn to miss Shanahan Miss Jana Shanahan for the next round of questions. You've got five minutes.
Massey. We'll call Mr. President. Happy Merci. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, madam Commissioner, Ms. Lucky for being with us today. I listened with interest to all the testimony we heard today and I think it's important to point out for the sake of Canadians, because this study has generated a lot of public interest. And I think that this helped us a lot in our fight against online, child porn, and the exploitation of children. So I would like to thank all of our colleagues here today. And especially Mr. Dong, and Mr. Erskine Smith, who brought this motion forward in the first place to this committee, and we have to put our money where our mouth is right. And that's what all the colleagues here are very concerned about. And so when I heard the ministers and Commissioner latke refer to the challenges in enforcement and their resources that that requires, and we can stand that the challenge today, with the technology evolving as it does, on a constant basis, the challenge today to identify and investigate child pornography online is is tremendous. And so when I see that more than $35 million of funding, that was recommended by the government in the supplementary estimates, and in the mains, was actually voted down by the Official Opposition, they voted against this additional support to the federal policing. But what's even more shocking to me is that specific allocations that were made in the 2021 main estimates, including 6.3 million for the national strategy to combat human trafficking, 4.4 million for the National Cyber Security Strategy, and 4.2 million for protecting children from sexual exploitation online. Exactly what we're talking about here was also the conservatives. The Official Opposition also voted against this. And just by the by, and when we're talking about the importance of the RCMP and federal policing in this work, the NDP Convention on the weekend had a motion, which wanted to defund the RCMP altogether. So
I'm recognizing a point of order. Mr. Angus,
We're talking about child rape here. If she wants to do Liberal handstands, she can do it someplace else. We've got a few minutes to get answers whether or not the laws of this nation are being applied. If she's got ridiculous points to make, she can do it elsewhere.
Right. I don't think that's a point of order. But I think in the effort to bring things to order, Madame Shanahan will probably take that note that that concern,
and I will get my ID and I will get my time back chair, because
you do have about two minutes left.
Very good, because I do have important questions for the commissioner. Because again, I am struck by the challenges the incredible challenges that we have in in the identification and investigation of child pornography, in this incredibly complex. World cyberspace world, which in many respects, does resemble the Wild Wild West. Commissioner, can you comment on the kind of work that you are doing? We heard earlier that the RCMP is chairing the virtual global task force? Can you comment on that work? And what what are the initiatives that are being undertaken at this time?
Thank you so much for the question. You know, although law enforcement is facing a ton of challenges in addressing this crime, we've made some significant progress. In 2019. For example, there was over 100,000 reports that were received, and 362 Canadian victims were identified and uploaded to the Interpol's international child sexual exploitation database. And that was an increase of 32%. From the view here. We also have developed and implemented a new inefficient file management system and this is all with the funding that we got in budget 2018, and 1920. And it's specific to online child sexual exploitation, as well as investigations and it's to increase effect and analysis capabilities because that's so important. Like you mentioned, we lead a we lead a global Study related to health and wellness as a part of the partnership with the virtual global Task Force, I can't understate the effect, the negative effect it has on anybody who is in this line of business to view these images day in and day out. So that study was so important. And it was it also, there's an international police Alliance dedicated to the protection of children. As well as, and that's what happens with the chair with that virtual task force with the Intel sharing and the data sharing. There's a lot of outreach and education. And we also have going to my list. We work with, obviously, the national and international partners to help ensure that all citizens are informed as possible, because it's about that reporting and that information sharing. And it's not just about victims or survivors, it's about the people who are pro nation, as well as Canadian center for Child Protection, C three p we call it is our national strategy partner. And they've developed numerous resources for children, parents, police officers and community members so that they are educated. So information is power. And I can't stress that enough, because it's about people see something you say something, you bring it forward. And that's the best way that we can deal with that.
Thank you, Commissioner. We'll turn to Mr. Curie. Now, Mr. Carey.
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the commissioner, I wanted to kind of explore a point that was mentioned by the ministers, but also yourself in regards to the international front. I was honored to be part of a roundtable in Oshawa. And I want to thank the Durham police human trafficking division. And they had representatives from the FBI and from Texas. And what I found out is that if you commit human trafficking and these offenses in the United States, it's a mandatory minimum of 10 years per person trafficked. Now, when the liberals had a chance to do something about this, in 2019, they passed Bill C 75, which actually turned human trafficking into a hybrid offense, where somebody could serve less than two years in prison or just pay a fine, of $5,000. So what I wanted to ask you, as a police officer, if you wanted to have a disincentive of doing this type of business in Canada, if I'm a business, and I want to use these exploitive images on the internet, or human trafficking over the Internet, and I could do the business in Canada versus the United States, which is a greater disincentive to do the business in Canada, or the United States, if you compare 10 year mandatory minimums versus potential $5,000, fine, which from my sources say these human slave traders can make 250 to $300,000...per person trafficked. What do you think? where's where's the better place to do business?
That is, Mr. Carey, a very difficult question. And I would actually pass that to my colleague from Department of Justice. I think Robert Brookfield and Norman long are on the line as well. And they would probably be better suited for answering that question.
Well, maybe you can't answer the question. But I think it's quite obvious to anybody watching this right now, that when we had a chance to get tougher on these types of crimes, we actually made the penalties less severe. And you've mentioned some statistics in response to my block colleague about how many investigations you've done since 2019, when the liberals did change this, and you were quite, you have been quite busy. And I understand that the numbers, but there were 1000s of investigations. But how many charges have you actually laid since 2019? Since this, Bill 70, c 75, came into effect?
I don't have this specific numbers. Since the onset of Bill C 6075. I would have to get your numbers in regards to the RCMP jurisdiction and not the entire Canada, which would be a disservice because many of the areas that we police are not the center of where a lot of this crime occurs. They tend to gravitate towards the bigger urban centers.
Oh, absolutely. And, Mr. Chair, just curious, how much time do I have left? About two minutes? All right. Thank you very much, Commissioner lucky. When you're looking at the situation that we're facing, like I come from Oshawa, and we're along the 401 corridor, and we have seen an increase in business, this type of business which is upsetting to all of us, that have been involved in this study. And I was wondering If you could provide the committee First of all, the number of charges that have been laid by the RCMP, but if you could mention how many have been billed jurisdiction in all the government was having challenges appointing judges for a period of time for federal courts. And when the changes were made for human trafficking to be turned into a hybrid offense, it was disappointing to see these indictable offenses that originally carried some significant penalties for people in human trafficking to be pushed down to the the provincial courts. Would you be able to tell us just off the top of your head? how busy are the federal courts right now, when they do have to prosecute these type of crimes? Is there a long waiting period between the time the charges were laid, to the time that victims have to go to court to become re victimized and testify against the perpetrators?
There's about 30 seconds remaining, but I will allow the commissioner to answer
I would love to be able to answer that question. But in regards to the delays in the court, obviously, a COVID is not permitted, has contributed to that. But I can't give you that specific, those specific answers. And there is no distinction between the provincial and the federal when it comes to laying of a criminal code charge. It's just brought to court. And obviously, I don't have those specific numbers or the delays. Well, thank
you for your testimony. I look forward to some of those numbers, if you can give it to it. Thank you, Mr. Carey will. Oh, thank you, Chair and good morning again to everyone. Commissioner. Lucky. Thank you for coming today. And thank you for your comments to date I did was I had the pleasure of growing up in a small town in British Columbia with an RCMP detachment there in Prince Rupert. And I know during my high school years, we were visited by our RCMP officers and they look for good things, of course, for educational items, and and so forth. So I want to thank all the RCMP officers here in Ontario, many people may not see the RCMP officers on a daily basis. And but growing up, we certainly did and thank you. Thank you to them. regard to the response that was given the letter dated February 22 2021. It was a response actually, to my colleague, Mr. dongs question in terms of whether Mr. Steven white that response that three page letter, which I found to be very, very insightful, very informative, and gave an excellent summary of the RCMP responsibilities with regards to this area of jurisdiction we're looking at in terms of the study. I do want to go to in terms of how the committee's recommendations and because we'll have to write a report and provide recommendations on page three, with regards to the RCMP ask, and recommendations to improving the law, where if I can just read it, some of the read it it's the second paragraph on that page. Some of the RCMP has proposed recommendations, including the amendment to the MRI regulations, to name the NCS. For notifications with respect to section three duty duty to know this change would better align the reporting activity and make standardization possible. The RCMP understands that the requested change among others are now being reviewed by the DOJ Can you can you go into an elaborate how that would that change would would strengthen the RCMP ability to prosecute investigate instances of child exploitation?
That is a really great question. I'm going to pass that over to my colleague Andre Beaulieu.
Jake, to answer your question, actually, it would strengthen. It would strengthen because at the moment, if you look at the MRA under Section three Canadian companies actually do their reporting to law enforcement across the country police officers, there is no specific to whom in particular, they can actually do their reporting. Contrary to section two where it is very specific, because C three B has been identified as the entity to which the reporting needs to be done. So by naming the NCCC in Section three, this will actually allow us to concentrate all the information towards us all the reporting, and we'll be able to actually take care of duplication or deconfliction and be able to disseminate the information very quickly across the country to the police of djordjevic. To the jurisdiction.
Okay, thank you, Mr. Lu. I'm sure I'm going to be reading the the blues on on your answer there to to to understand everything because this is I'm not a lawyer by training. So but but I thank you for that explanation. Secondly, the RCMP are in the NC ECC on behalf of the RCMP is the current chair of the virtual global tax Task Force. You know, very bluntly, how important is Canada's leadership in on this virtual global tax task force?
another great question. You know, I can't under overstate the importance of the leadership of the RCMP in general in many ways. We're sort of the glue that connects the all the police agencies together, we get, we are sort of the national repository for intelligence. And so for us to share that information or be the lead of that it speaks volumes, also to the fact that much of our legislation is ahead of many countries. So that's part and parcel as to why it is important that we lead that global Task Force. And so it's, it helps in many fronts, not just domestically, but it does help. And we obviously, it's a great forum to share best practices, and to learn what other countries are doing to combat it. But it's also really good to share the intelligence and to, to do the data sharing as well. So it's a it's it's, I'm just so honored that Canada's the lead of that.
Okay. Thank you,
Mr. Chair, how long do I have left you
about 20 seconds?
Well, with that, I just I just wish to say thank you to to the commissioner. And to Mr. Bill, you excuse me if I don't have your title offhand. But thank you for your answers. And I wish everyone great work into the folks at the NC CC. Thank you for what you do. I know we've only gotten a very small taste or portion of what child exploitation is about. And I know it turned my stomach and I went home to my young daughters and gave them a big hug when when that day was over. So what they do, I just wanted to say thank you to those individuals and for their professionalism and dedication to service.
I'll be on Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. sumaira. We've got two final questions. Mr. Madame Goudreau for the next two and a half minutes.
We move?
Yes, Miss lucky, I'd like to have a little more information on the Five Eyes, we heard that Canada likes to position itself as a leader. But aside from our legislative model, if we want if we want to react faster, and you were saying earlier that it's always good to get more resources. So I'm just wondering who is a member of the Five Eyes group? And what can they tell victims to reassure them since Canada right now is looking at perhaps helping to create an international framework. And if Canada is to be a leader, tell us more about what the Five Eyes is doing.
Thank you so much for that. Obviously, for the Five Eyes, the countries that are involved, or Australia, New Zealand, the UK and the United States and ourselves. And so it's it's important that they that we work together, I don't and and first of all, exchange the Intel and exchange the data, but also to work towards developing or investing in technological solutions. And so often, some of these countries are working towards technological solutions. And so if we can use that, we're also the lead when you look at the child exploitation, and you look at the technology there is, is the first of its kind and what they've done with the Phoenix group. It's, it's, it's so incredible. We also look at when we look at companies, we like to work with the voluntary principle, counter the online sexual child exploitation and abuse, which were developed by Five Eyes governments through consultation with a wide range of stakeholders, including a leading group of industry representatives. And these principles are intended to provide a consistent and a high level framework for industry actors to review safety processes, and respond to risks facing users. So it's there's lots of great exchange with the goal to, you know, to eliminate these these heinous acts.
Thank you, Commissioner. We've got that turned to Mr. Angus for as our final question this morning.
Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Madame lucky in the briefing report to the commissioner, there are recommendations, but there's nothing there. I thought maybe they were blanked out. But after hearing from the Justice Minister and your testimony, maybe there aren't recommendations would you provide whatever recommendations you received in that briefing note to our committee?
I'm looking at the
it's our version is blanked out. If you could just forward that to us, it would help us in our work.
Oh, some of their Oh, some of the recommendations? Yeah. Well, some of them, obviously, are cabinet confidence, because you're in the midst of an MC. But obviously, we're looking at this. We're having discussions with the DOJ about the mandatory reporting act.
Okay. I have very little time, I'm just asking if you could for them to us, it would make things simpler.
Yeah, we
can put in a little section.
Thank you so much for that. I'm lucky we hear time and time, again, from survivors that they're not believed. And I just want to put this on the record, because we've heard about how, you know, when you spoke with Pornhub, in 2018, Pornhub believed that the rules didn't apply, then they were going to be allowed to do this in a roundabout way, which I don't see in the criminal code that we let companies under investigation, do things in a roundabout way. But I'm dealing with a survivor, who calls the RCMP about non consensual, a sexual assault video. And they said, well, Pornhub How does Pornhub know that that was illegal? That's what they say to her on April 6, on May 23. They said, well, there's lots of rapes on that site, and some of them are acting. So how is Pornhub supposed to know that this survivors and acting How could she prove that she did not consent? Then the RCMP said to her? Well, how can they she proved that Pornhub did it on purpose, meaning posting something that's illegal. Then they asked her? Well, how did they know the Pornhub knew what was being uploaded? did how did she know that they'd even had a chance to view it in advance. And then the RCMP says yes. But on w five, they said there weren't enough moderators to do the job properly. So they might not have known that it was not consensual, because they didn't have enough people to moderate it. So these are the questions that are being asked of a survivor time and time again. And on April 6, the RCMP writes to her and says, if you have a complaint regarding porn hubs actions, you need to contact the police where Pornhub is located. So this woman's, the RCMP is her Provincial Police. She's told that Pornhub is not a Canadian company. So can you tell this survivor where she has to go to make a complaint about Pornhub?
You know, the victimization of survivors is, is totally unacceptable. It is not acceptable in any means. And I really, the victims of the online child exploitation, they really should reach out to their local law enforcement agency to file the complaint sheet and that's, and it's an I it's unfortunate, I have no words to say,
but this Mom, do you know, where she could make her complaint use, the RCMP told her, she has to contact the police where Pornhub is located Pornhub references Cyprus,
that's not an acceptable answer. And we need to get better. We need to get better. And, you know, when we have we have the cyber tip line as well. And so we need to get better so that the survivors are not re victimized every time they have to come forward. And it just saddens me when I hear that. There's, it's, it's just not acceptable. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Angus. Thank you, Commissioner, thank you to all of the support supporting officials that came as well for this morning's this afternoon's meeting, I am here in Alberta, so I keep saying in the afternoon, so anyway, thank you for for being here. Colleagues, we will just suspend for a short period of time to allow for the first two hours witnesses to to log off and will allow the the clerk the party the the law clerk to one of what is your point of order recognizing point of order, Mr. Dom?
Thank you chair. It's actually a point of clarification. I receive a lot of correspondence from organizations across the country who are concerned that we this when I first put notice forward originally to start this study, I didn't expect the amount of information and evidence were getting and that I I know that my colleague or liberal colleague has proposed to hear from the sex workers or sex work advocacy group like Stella, and they've openly said that they want to be here. But what they were denied the opportunity. Can you give us an update on? How many the remain remainder of the witnesses and exactly why that we, we were opposing for stellar to come forward to testify.
Thank you, Mr. Dong, the the committee has not yet determined future witnesses. And so the committee will certainly look at the the witnesses at at a point in which we as a committee will make those determinations, that will be something that I will be asking committee members to, to make some decisions on in terms of how long the the the opportunity will be, remain open for for witnesses, or individuals who believe that they can have something to contribute to this to this study, we as a committee, I guess, need to give some clarification to people that are watching our study, progress. And so at some point, when we have a future business opportunity, I think we'll consider all of those witnesses, I would remind every person who believes that they have something to contribute to this hearing that Well, well, committee members may not agree to hear from from every witness that believes that they have something to contribute, that this committee has made a determination that we will accept all correspondence from people who believe that they have something to contribute to this to this hearing. And it will be considered to be testimony. So that was a decision of committee members some time ago when so while not every person who believes that they have something to contribute will be heard in the in the way that this committee meeting was held today, the committee has made a decision that we will accept all testimony by a written form. That will be be the same way that if if those witnesses would testify in person, and so the same require the same provisions of confidentiality of fee if that is requested, or in terms of parliamentary privilege, those things will be included. And so that was a decision of committee members some time ago. And so we will, I'm certain have an opportunity to to hear from additional witnesses. I'm not sure that anybody I've not heard down, Mr. Dong. So if if committee members did make that determination at some future time, then that will be conveyed, but as of yet I haven't heard of any witness that has had their brief or their requested rejected. Thanks so much.
Yeah. So because that will help us to have a comprehensive study too. And that's a very important aspect. And I think it will be beneficial for the community members to hear from sorry.
Sure, when of order when Mr. Mr. Angus, and then we'll turn to Mr. Shanahan.
Thank you, in terms of how things are done, we did have a meeting in terms of we have normally we don't discuss witnesses in public. We discuss it at the planning meeting, and then bring forward and so that was what was done. And that was also understood that all witness testimony is being brought forward in even in written form. So we could have a planning meeting, and I'm certainly open to that. I think it's probably a better way to deal with it. Then. points of order on the floor as Mr. Dongo seems to love his points of order.
Thank you, Mr. Angus. And I do appreciate that I think that there is an opportunity on Friday where we're where we'll be able to schedule one of those meetings. Mr. pervy Miss Shanahan.
Yes, Chair it just a point of order about our proceedings from here on in because we received the briefing about the law clerks appearance just shortly before this meeting. So I've been trying to communicate with the clerk. And the question is, are we proceeding to the hearing the law clerk, will it be the normal rounds? That that's what I'm asking for clarification on. For sure.
We will, we will start the rounds from the from the top it is a new witness. So I do consider the this a new witness on a different subject. We'll start the rounds from the top. The the law clerk has prepared an opening brief, brief opening statement and so we'll hear from from him and then we will proceed to those. So, colleagues if there's still a desire to suspend for a few minutes, we can do that and then we can proceed hearing from the law clerk will suspend for the next four minutes meeting suspended