Care of Magical Shippers Podcast Episode 29 - The Secrets of Grindeldore (Albus Dumbledore/Gellert Grindelwald)

6:12PM May 22, 2022

Speakers:

Care of Magical Shippers Podcast

Megs

Keywords:

dumbledore

love

thought

movie

jude law

character

film

feel

grendel

moment

relationship

muggle

wizard

great

mcgonagall

bit

galette

fantastic beasts

elvis

muggles

Hey there listener Fancy seeing you here. Look, sometimes due to the things we discuss on the pod, it might contain potentially triggering content. But the good news is you can always review the episode description for a full list of the warnings applicable to this episode. Oh, and just so you know, this episode is rated are really filthy. It includes adult themes and explicit content. So if you're an adult, buckle up, Gird your loins and prepare to flood the basement because we are going down with these ship

crashes ship space, let's go to ship big. Don't care if I get my bearings. Well then you can get the bricks. This is my own TeeSpy

congratulations listener, you've successfully cut cast Axio and summoned the podcast. Welcome to Care of Magical shippers podcast brought us to you to your ears. Well done. Your magic has been successful. I am Nathan.

And I am Meg's.

And this week, we're really excited to talk to you about something a little bit different we are going to be doing Grendel door dumbbell world What do you want to call it? You had a great name for it earlier. Albert that's the new official ship. I'm going with a it's gonna stick I have a feeling that's gonna go viral. Best

like the parsley when we kill with parsley. Yeah, it's really good.

To be fair to you. I think you came up with parsley, didn't you? I did. Yeah. And then yeah, you come up with all the good stuff. And I'm just saying.

Every time I'm here because of my voice people

just see the gratuitous British quotient.

Exactly. We couldn't have a Harry Potter podcast if we didn't have some genuine British energy

it's just big British out to do so I'm just sat here rolling my eyes at everything.

And drinking tea. Yes.

Which I actually did like not 10 minutes ago so you could if you're playing you know Care of Magical shippers podcast go. You can take that one off the list.

That should we probably have some great stuff to make a bingo if we really wanted to. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we should make some sort of podcast bingo.

Like every time I say absolutely or because there's too many of those you would make like it's a good thing that's not a drinking game, because our listeners would be flustered like actually just paralytic So anyway, this this week we're going to be because the the film released recently, so we're thinking it would be apropos to do something that discusses a ship that was big in Fantastic Beasts number three the secrets of Dumbledore. Um, what better way to start that than by saying you went and saw the film last night, didn't you?

I did. Yep. I went and saw it. I went and saw it yesterday. So it is bright, squeaky, you know, in my mind, so I remember hopefully a significant amount of things. So I should be good going. But yeah, I saw it yesterday. And I was, I mean, I went in like kind of open minded, like I'd meet I'd mentioned to you before, like, I just look at fantastic pieces, like a separate entity in itself. Like, obviously, there are problems and how certain things within the magical world that were set and the rules that were set based on original canon, the books, the movies that are just completely disregarded and thrown out the window. And so I just am like, Okay, I'm watching a separate thing that is similar. Like, it's like it's a wizarding world thing with its own rules. So,

so a separate wizarding world thing with based on the characters that has its own rules. It's almost like fanfiction. It's Harry Potter fanfiction. So perfect for our podcast.

Absolutely. Oh, man. So it was it was a lot of fun. I did love because I didn't know like, I was going in prepared to be like, Okay, this movie is not going to be gay enough. Like it's just like, you know, like, it's like it's going to allude to things it's not gonna blatantly tell us because do you think of like, the night the night previous I rewatched crimes of Grindelwald and so then it had the omen that was any My personal opinion there's the moment where the what is it? The minister I think comes and he's like you, you know, you need to fight him. And he's like, you know, is it because of this it's like you were as close as brothers and he's like we were closer than brothers. And then you see him with the mirror of era said like you have the, it alludes to it, you know, like it's like it sets the roadmap to like, okay, there was something more there between these two and most of it is because we, we have it already. Like we know that that was something like after the books came out like JK was like, oh, yeah, Elvis was gay. And oh, yeah, that was a romantic relationship sort of thing. But this one to start off the gate. So spoilers for the movie, if you care if you've seen it or haven't or you know, there going to be plenty of people who just won't go see it.

Oh, yeah. Review the warnings before we Yeah.

But I mean, from the beginning. It's literally a scene of Dumbledore and Grindelwald sitting down together. And having that having a conversation and Dumbledore literally blatantly says like I did it, you know, I was in love with you. Like, what else could I do if, you know if we believed in something, but also you were really passionate, and I wanted to be there to support you ultimately. And it's like, the reason he made choices he did at that young of age was because he was in love with him. And that came up multiple times. Like it was not, it was not tiptoed around. So I really did appreciate that as far as how that was handled in the movie itself,

for sure. And I was very interested to learn that those scenes were clipped from the film for certain international audiences. Of course, they were Yeah, where it would have been politically unacceptable to have audiences listening to that, what they would call rhetoric and what the rest of the world just calls a story, a human story, right?

There's dubs over where he's like, I was in love with you. It's like, you are my best friend. Like, yeah, I think of it makes me think of what is it? Um, Sailor Moon? Because the same thing happened when they did the English dub from Japanese to English because they were like, Oh, it's a kids show. Blah, blah, blah. So they were doing what is it Neptune and Uranus? Like they were the ones that were technically remained romantically involved like two women, um, you know, couple, and I think they made them cousins, which of course, in the show's suicide, it made it even weirder. They obviously have behaviors, or like, I mean, it's like, I don't know, it was very, it was very odd. But then you if you watched it with like, subtitles, it actually translated correctly. But if you listen to the English voiceover, then they made it no romantic between them.

It's really interesting. I've never seen the moon but I'm sure there are listeners nodding along furiously with you like Yeah. No, but I just I find it fascinating that this revisionist thing happens for audiences that depending on where you're watching content, it really can get quite heavily censored the right word. I'll go with, I'll go with filtered it's less charged, right. But, but it can the the same film isn't necessarily the same all the way through depending on where you see it. And that is such an interesting concept to bring to a ship like Dumbledore and Grindelwald because they see things they see the world from two entirely different self edited perspectives. And I don't know if we, you know, we want to get like deep right off the bat with Dumbledore certainly does, but but the point is, is that the central conflict of the film really comes from Dumbledore inability to square his adoration for the man against his actions and against what he's actually like. And we see this quite a lot just in in love stories generally, in film, that there's this heightened perception by you know, one of the one of the two of the couple of like, Oh, they're in a love story, and nothing can touch them. And meanwhile, you know, the the outside world blazers, the one that jumps to my mind is Star Wars with Anakin and Padme. Right where she is invested in their relationship and doesn't spot until way way later on that that there have been so many red flags. And so that's what this made me think of.

And it was and it was interesting to come into it with it, it already being a past thing, like it was already past tense. So we're dealing with the aftermath of essentially a breakup but when that had sort of a significant impact on to powerful men. And then how that drives, you know, things. I mean, it, it. It's a relationship that affects the wizarding world at large, which seems so crazy to think about that it's like, oh, like even the dependents that everyone wants to find a way for Dumbledore to be able to fight him and be the one to take him down and the reasoning behind that. So that's just, I Yeah. Oh, okay. So we're it's jumping to the end. But I'm curious what your thoughts are even though it like it kind of explained it. But I don't think it was enough to me. Why do you think when it was deemed to be unbreakable, how do you think that the blood like blood Bond was able to break in that moment?

Right. So I think it was supposed to be that because Dumbledore wasn't aiming at Grendel world and the three spells just sort of intersected that it was able to shut her because he wasn't targeting him. And I just don't think that was very well visually represented in that moment.

Yeah. Because he had said he's like, Oh, because I went to protect and he went to attack so it was something that he was but but there but it doesn't make sense because if they're both affected by it, like I don't know and either way hey, it's done and it's broken. So now topples torch and fight so convenience other the other thing would be like love for family, you know what I mean? Like choosing family over like a previous love interest, you know, sort of thing when he when he didn't choose them before. Like you can tell like it went into his his demons, Dumbledore, his demons, and I love that Newt was there to kind of like, listen, and he talked us through some of the things we knew already. But to actually see, like the way Jude Law carries his emotional burdens is just so moving. Like, I just think he's done an amazing job of showing that he's like, I've moved, I've moved on from this. And I know that I will probably always, to some extent, love this person. But I can acknowledge the fact that he's not the person I love anymore. Like he's, he's someone else. So it's like I'm in love with the memory of someone versus still having that love for someone.

Yeah. And it's funny, because when you said you were talking about the end or flashing forward the end, I thought you're gonna go to the very end. Now I have some thoughts about that last scene where the marriage is about to happen. And Dumbledore is outside talking to Newt, and then you wanders back in. And there's this really long shot that pans back to Dumbledore. And he's sort of looking wistfully through the bakery window. And then he wanders off and that's the last scene of the film. And I had some thoughts about this about I was talking to a friend, we really disagreed I thought that it was a kind of Jkr getting digs in at the not necessarily at the LGBT community. But the lamentable instability of relationships like that, where it's like, oh, Dumbledore is on the on the periphery, he's on the sidelines, looking in at the heteronormative wedding, because he'll never be he'll never have that happiness. So we're supposed to feel sympathy for the character as a consequence of that. And I told this to my friend who absolutely disagreed with me and thought it was one of the most moving scenes in the film and thought it was a great note to end on. But I was just wondering if you had any thoughts?

Well, I guess the one the one thing to kind of semi in the realm like think of it like I mean, obviously it's a heterosexual marriage you're still dealing with a witch and a wizard or witch and a Muggle so it's still like a forbidden you know wedding but still taking place you know within rights you know, war and stuff like that. So I loved that I loved that that we got to see the we got to see Jacob and Queen ease relationship do its thing in this movie? Oh, yeah. Essentially, like we were devastated with Jacob and like the pain that they were both and by that choice she made in the movie previous and her being like, some choices can't be undone to actually see them you know, it's it definitely was like a happy moment of trying to bring that little bit of joy but I definitely just what my takeaway was like, yeah, it definitely was Dumbledore looking in on something that it's like, that bittersweet of like, oh, this is kind of it's definitely a calm before the next storm like it definitely was the end of an arc. Like I feel like because we know The next couple of movies are you know on hiatus it's a to be determined but as far as if we're going to end for a while, this was the first like Grendel walled arc that we were able to close and we got the closure of Queenie and Jacob and and so him yeah him I don't know dad like I focusing on him going off like yeah I don't know I guess it is him just like accepting his aloneness because he What is it? It's when they're they're fighting finally after it breaks and it's just like them in this fog. And then you know Mads is like who you know who's gonna love you now and then it's like, oh, you know, we're alone. Oh

that moment that moment was incredible. Yeah,

yeah. So it was like, oh that acceptance of like, I'll just always, you know, be alone but also there is that bit of Dumbledore that is like, does celebrate happiness and wants love for other people and sees it as obviously we see through the movies with Harry Potter and whatever, that there's strength and power in love. And so for him, it's like, his love power is very different, you know, like he's dealing with, like, the power of, of what's right, versus, you know, being driven by an emotional response when normally he would kind of like, have people like, tell people to follow their hearts, but it's like, it's just so I don't know, it's just such a muddy thing for that man. Like, he has his own rules. Like, and how he does. Yeah, no, but I did love that ending because like I said, it just it felt like it was the end of a chapter and then what we would see next would be the beginning of that, because we know, ultimately, okay, then it's going to be Dumbledore versus, you know, grid evolved eventually, like, that's the ultimate thing that they'll be moving. Yeah, words. And so but yeah, to see him on his own. I also kind of saw it as him because of course, he like he talks to Newt. And it's in a very positive light of like, Thank you, you know, we save the world. And thank you for helping and newts like I do it again. And even with him moving on, I think it was part part of it was Dumbledore moving on, like moot, like being like, okay, that chapter is over. And now I'm moving forward. And I don't have that, like the blood bond, or whatever it was, was broken. And now he is, he is free. Ultimately, like he even if he had his heart had moved on, he always would have that connection to him. Until now, like that's different. So I don't know. I just I definitely think it was very, like a very bittersweet moment for Dumbledore. But of course, I didn't I mean, but I, I mean, I'm sure it's like you have the gay lens versus I don't, I'm not always going to pick up on those things. Sure, sure, that you would take away. So I mean, like, I hear you, and I'm like, Oh, I could see that. But also like, I'm like, Oh, I wouldn't have thought of that. But I don't disagree with it. But I definitely see it as like it was a definitely a very wonderful, powerful, and regardless of the of the meaning, like I did think it was a beautiful way to end the movie.

Sure. And this isn't me hating on the movie or it's message at all. In fact, I, one of the scenes that I thought was most powerful when was was when they were both sort of mid duel. And the action slowed down. And there was this section that it pan between both of their heartbeats. And I really thought

they had their hands. Was it the hands on their heart? Oh, yeah. Yes, it was that they're just holding at one point, but then their hands are on each other's hearts, and they're feeling each other's like breath. And oh, that was just Yeah, it was it was a short bit, but I absolutely yeah, I loved I loved that moment. It was so it was, it was so powerful.

It was a very emotionally satisfying way to tell that maturity and where those characters were. And that's what I would say is if you're interested in going to see the film and by the way, you absolutely should because in my opinion, this repairs a lot of the damage from the crimes of Grendel, old, the second film, if you're interested in going to see this film, what's what sells it for me. And why I will continue to sort of stick up for it is that it's one of the most emotional films of the Fantastic Beasts series. And it really made me invested in their ship. I left that film thinking, Yeah, I see a part of myself in that. Or you know, I see though, I suppose I've always seen a little bit of myself in Dumbledore. Which is why I've why I'm not as quick to Dumble bash whenever people quite rightly point out that he's a roofer. This manipulative, power hungry, zealot, you know that,

but he's extremely gray. So you can, you know, there's a lot of ways, you know, facets to that.

There are and I like the I like what this film does with that where we've only really seen you know, prior to this series we only see Dumbledore is this, you know, Sage gray head, you know, purveyor of selective wisdom at inappropriate times. But now, he's a lot more apt No, he's not there yet. And he's still very, he's a lot more contemplative, I think is what I'm trying to say. And the way that Jude Law acts that is superb, as you've already touched on, and when it's paired against Mads Mikkelsen, that's when this really starts to shine, because in my opinion, mods Mickelson saves the character of Galat Grendel bold single handedly, and turns him from the sort of pantomime villain that Johnny Depp had was portraying, you know, this idea of magic blooms only in rare souls, the second film, and everything was just that bit more menacing Lee calm, he had this sort of measured quality to his insanity. That was absolutely terrifying. And then the depth to which he was willing to go to I think in that first scene, when they're in that restaurant in London and Dumbledore saying, I did all those things, because I was in love with you. Then the scene is turned on its head when he says something like, Don't you smell the stench of the muggles around you? I'll burn everything in their will to the ground. But he says it in such a way that I feel like Johnny Depp would have delivered that and a lot more of a a high octane way, whereas Mads Mickelson's delivery was just like, No, I'm so done with this other world, it needs to end, you know, and I, I bought into that a lot more, because it showed that he was sort of ruthless and determined, as opposed to you know, I'm going to give an imposing speech at a podium, you know,

and it definitely like, but it gives that it does give a strong disconnect to who we saw in the previous movie because it was definitely like you had the manipulation point of view of dealing with people to get them to believe that it's like oh, we're not better we just want to help guide them and Oh, Queenie like, Don't you want a world in which you can freely marry said Muggle when really, obviously, his goal is like, muggles are obviously disgusting creatures like our less than, and so Mads definitely took and made it like you said, like a little bit more dark and menacing versus, like Johnny Depp gave us that like, manipulative point of view, not that Mads couldn't have done that and tried it with a couple of characters. We just didn't get to see it as much. It was more like, Oh, his manipulation was established, like he had his followers, like now, it was like putting plans in motion sort of thing. And it was, I mean, I definitely I like them both for separate reasons for why you know, for, for playing that character. I mean, I just, I love Johnny Depp in general. So it's like, I did love him being a part of show Fantastic Beasts thing. But I definitely agree that if he had done this film, it would have been a completely different film like it just like how he would have like addressed things, how he would have held himself how I mean, they're obviously their acting styles are completely different. So at first, it was a little disorienting, just because we did get that like cold open of like, look at these just disgusting muggles, which we didn't really get in the previous movie. Like, we just like, we just knew that he thought that, you know, wizards should rule and is better than but then this was him coming in and just being like, it was essentially that final chance for Dumbledore to feel like is this an opportunity for me to see that there is still something good because he had that conversation? Like, can't you see that what you're doing is not you know what you should be like, it's like he was had that last, he was holding on to that last hope of him possibly being able to see reason, but he's just so far gone. And when he's like, Man, I can't believe we're around all these, you know, like disgusting creatures. And it's like Elvis would know, in that moment that it's just like, This is it. This is the end. I have to find a way to stop him. And it was Yeah, so to see. I mean, it was fun to see the like how the plan happened, like just confusing him. Not everyone knowing everything that was going on how it all came together. And at the very end, and Bunty is One of my favorite characters, fondue so much. And it's like she's so in love with Newt. And part of me is like I ship Bunty and new like a lot. Like, I just feel like they're okay. And they love animals together. And it's like Tina is like the safe one. Because we haven't seen a lot of her since the first movie. It's like we saw kind of that relationship in the second movie. Oh, she thought he was getting married. So of course that separated them and it didn't really move the relationship forward. And then of course, like, I guess, for reasons she wasn't really in the third movie. And so then we lost that she was just there at the very end. And I just, I just Bunty was there the whole time and with little things that she did and she's really invested and I don't know I just so tangent from Grendel door I knew it and Bunty is definitely my Fantastic Beasts OTP like it's just it like Tina was just the next like the next love the next leader and then bounties the end game that's what someone's loved you for eight years and 100 and however many days

it well, yeah, you're quite right. But is it is it is like it's horrible in a way to see it be so one sided or to have new be so oblivious? Because I definitely think Eddie Redmayne plays new like he is on the spectrum somewhere like, Oh, absolutely. on the autistic spectrum. And that's fantastic for representation. But of course, it also means that he has to be oblivious to certain social issues. Yeah. Yeah. And so I do feel it for Bunty in that she clearly loves him, but is just getting nowhere with that. And that that's sort of heartbreaking in a way. I mean, Bunty is a is a great character, but I do feel like she suffers as well from not really having a lot to do. I mean, she just in this movie, like orders, duplicate suitcases, and then carries the the, the one with the Chilean, although I did love that line that pay off when she she goes, nobody should know everything new two or something. Yeah. I, I will say, with regard to like what you were saying about the shift in tone between the two rental worlds? I thought that was because when we'd seen Johnny Depp has Grindelwald, you know, being the sort of political orator, he was delivering speeches to big audiences, or he was like, still always surrounded by people. So even when he was with Queenie, there were other people around him. And he was pretty much always delivering a political message. I mean, how many politicians in the world make campaign promises that they then never delivered on, I thought that was quite a prescient point that the films made. But then in this film, when we see Mount Mickelson and Jude Law together in that first scene, it's literally just them, there are no other wizards. And there's even that moment where the sort of, I think there's like a mist sort of gathers around them at the start. And if you just feel like they're the only two people in that world, and so in that moment, he's being brutally honest with him, because there's no one left to impress, there's no agenda left to push, he can just be truthful about what his end goal actually is. And he feels like he can be that way with Dumbledore because to a certain point, Dumbledore agreed with it, it was you know, it was a sort of a joint thing that they were going to do. And then all of a sudden, probably out of the death of Ariana Dumbledore reevaluated his moral position on that

the one thing that I have missing from like well there's a couple of things I have missing from that you know, we haven't gotten so far from like Grendel walls agenda is like he said it I mean I don't at least once he said it at least once in the pre in the previous movie but I don't think we got again the like statement for the greater good in this movie.

Yeah, I know I know I don't think they said that. Yeah, cuz I

mean cuz he immediately when he quote unquote like one like initially thought he won then he immediately went into his like, all right, you know now we're, it's like, Alright, sweet. I have the power. We're getting rid of the muggles are doing like he just like kind of went into it. He was Yeah, he definitely was no longer the manipulative politician. He was just like, This is how the world is now. And but we didn't get to hear that. And then I'm wondering when the Deathly Hallows symbol comes into play because it was always said that that was Grendel, vaults mark. And we have yet to see that as far as I

know. Yeah, it's just that Double G rune. Yeah, it was, yeah, it that was a little bit confusing and sort of lacking in continuity. But you know, there are always going to be these little things where it's like,

alternatively, like, obviously, it was his goal to like when he was at, like, Durmstrang. So of course, it's like Durmstrang students would associate that mark with him, like, because he carved it into things at school, so maybe not necessarily, was it something that he carried later on, because he found the Elder Wand, like he got the Elder Wand? That was his goal, like the most important thing for him to find. So it just was Gatto. No, but it just there's those couple things that I'm like, Oh, this is what we know him, like really specific to his character that we he's just different, like Mads mate did him different. And that's just that's just the reality. Like, he's, they're two different actors. They're going to handle things differently. And so it's just this is a different Grindelwald. And I think more ruthless, ruthless. And I think that's more I don't, I don't know, I have like a love hate for both types of villain because it's like you think of like, someone like an Umbridge that is going to talk like talk you through things and try and convince you and or manipulate you in a way to make you think like, oh, this is right. Whereas now he's very directly like, this is what's wrong. This is why we need to, you know, end the Muggle world and this is, it was it was just different. It was just different. I don't know that I I don't know. I don't know if I liked it or didn't, but it was just different.

So I'm getting the impression that I definitely preferred maths, and you definitely preferred Johnny Depp. And that's interesting, because we haven't had a real split on anything before where you've massively shipped something and I've just gone nope, or vice versa.

Friendship over podcast over

I just think it's, it's really good for us to be disagreeing about something had to happen eventually. And I am, I'm, what am I want to say about it? Like, I'm actually like, it's not a bad thing. For me. I actually think it makes it more interesting talking about the film, because obviously, we're gonna have different opinions about that. I didn't hate Johnny Depp's portrayal. But I did. I feel like I said that times that it sort of strayed into pantomime villain territory. And I was, I just thought, like, how do you build that character up? Like, do you know when someone goes to 10 really early, and then it's like, okay, you know, but there is no 11. So how do you top that, like, how are you going to get more evil as the, as the narrative goes on?

I think Mads did that. Because all of a sudden, it just like it totally switched. Like he like, went lost his filter. And he's just like, just is like that. 100% disdain for muggles just was there like, there was just no filter there. So I feel like Mads did do that. And I do feel like if Johnny Depp also did that, then we would get that 11 Because he was sugarcoating everything before so even though it was like underlying evil, getting rid of that fluff leaves you with, like the real dangerous, you know, person, I guess you could say,

yeah, yeah, I suppose so. But I thought that the choice that Mads made in portraying him as this very almost schizophrenic character that can switch very seamlessly between the calm collected serene planner, to then this apoplectic villain was really that was really clever. I mean, I loved his character of Le Shipka in Bond in Casino Royale, and I thought that he brought some of that energy to this row. And I really, one of the reasons I actually really liked that. That sort of dual energy is because I thought it played off of Jude Law really well. Jude Law is in this film was a lot more pensive, contemplative. There was a lot more you know, sort of gazing out of windows and looking back into the past and, you know, reflecting and that played really well against someone who is absolutely ruthlessly determined to drive home this vision of a future that is so polarized and so filled with not just hate, but a kind of desire to eradicate purely because there is the sign to get The you know, there's superiority in one race, or we call it a race or like a group. You know that the wizarding world is somehow superior. And that's again one of the reasons why I'm so much more invested in them as a ship now because I feel like this built into all that. I I hope I do hope that we get more films because I want to see more of that.

Yeah, I definitely love that I love i i guess i love Jude Law is his Dumbledore like you, you stating all the things of what he is like? It's just there's there's so many levels and of his character and like layers that I just I absolutely love and would love to see the untethered version, you know, because obviously, most of the movie he was tethered to something he couldn't control but could only push other people to do and make choices that hopefully would meet an end that he wished that he could do on his own that he couldn't. So to see how he would handle the next chapter of things against you know, against Grunewald will be really interesting and so well then now to like so of course so now I want to get back to me we can have if there's anything else you want to touch, but at some point I want to go back to like God Rex hollow to like their child. Yes, he got there. So but so was there anything else movie wise, at least in this moment that you can think of?

I'm sure we'll touch on more movie elements as we go. Yeah, because I would just say that when Jude Law first appeared, I was like, this is woefully miscast. I don't understand why he's in Muggle clothes. Why is he teaching

other thing like I said, like, okay, so ever all the all the orders wear fedoras and long, like coats and like, it's like back a, you know what, yeah,

but you know, I love detective fiction. So I sort of bought into that stylistically. And I was like, fair enough, it's a choice. But I was, but Dumbledore was always in you know, flowing multicolored robes and always had in the books anyway, an elevated sense of wizard fashion, at

least, at least give him some purple and gold paisley print, you know, waistcoat or some you know, gift bag something like just a gray tweed basic thing was just so I don't know if it was supposed to, like reflect the like, kind of like the the grade darkness in him, you know, because he's dealing with some deep dark feelings. So like something more eccentric would would propose like a either like a more positive, uplifting energy versus what he's actually carrying with him. And that moment, so I could see that, but, but yeah, the whole whatever one was wearing was just really, this is wild.

Now that seems like a silly thing to pick on to be like, oh, so your only problem was costume. But costume build so much of the character and it builds into

your perception. And it's worldbid building? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Like, we know that Harry Potter doesn't have a great history with costuming. Even if you look at the Patil twins at the Yule Ball, you know, they could have worn beautiful new saris of any description. And in the end, they just get these generic dresses. And I'm just like, what?

Well, all they needed was one person, like, Oh, could we find someone who knows, like this sort of like that? Like, they're just obviously took a person who does everything and was like, Oh, you have to figure out what they're gonna wear to and it's like, but, you know, sometimes you don't like that comes down to like sensitivity in that regard that a lot of people just don't think about and it's, you know, do you think early, do you know, to 2000s Yeah, we're in the two cells, things like that. But it's like now, we have beautiful fan art and things of what they what we now know as what they would wear, which is absolutely wonderful. And

yeah, I'm so grateful to people that fill in those gaps, because it really does need to happen and representation when it happens, needs to happen properly. Which is why I flame about Dumbledore is costume because he would not wear Muggle clothes. But then also, I noticed it's it's probably not something everybody would pick up on. But I noticed that there were like little twinges of Dorset in his accent, which I don't know if that's something that was intentional, but it's another riff on giving Dumbledore a different kind of accent because of course, you had Gam Bondo with his Irish isms. And then you had Richard Harris before him, and they all sound really vocally deaf. front so it's kind of weird for me to try and mentally connect them all as the same person even though I know that that's what's you know what what has to happen for the story to work? I don't know if you find that with anything like you were saying to me before we started recording about McGonagall being there.

I'm like okay, so it's McGonagall is mom who also is Minerva? Like okay, it's late 20s early 30s and McGonagall is a student in the mid 40s. Like

no, no it really well.

Yeah. And what was it she told on average that she's like, What was it 29 years or 27 years or something like that that she would have been? She would have been teaching which was nowhere close to the 20

Of course she could have done a boomerang she could have taught and then left and come back again. Yeah, so but like then that's how you could get round that but no, I absolutely agree with you that it's the world's biggest plot hole and

I have Okay, so I have this is the most ridiculous thing that I I can't remember if it was in it probably was in crimes of brindle wall because I think it was from that movie. It was cat because Lita was died at the end of it. So all the latest stuff would have happened during that movie, but when Lita like did the spell to like, silence that girl and like like hide her mouth, I don't know if you remember that scene. getting made fun to top my head. Yeah, so she's silent someone and so of course, a friend of the of the girl was like Professor McGonagall. Lita did it illustrated it again and everyone starts like chasing her through the castle. And then he's gonna go running after her with their skirts raise like a strange get back here. 100 points 200 points. I was like, Who the heck takes 102 100 points for like a kid running away from doing a silencing charm on somebody. It was just so over the top that I'm like, this is the most ridiculous thing. I mean, she took 50 points they took 50 points from like the people who do like genuinely dangerous things like yeah, this was it was just to hear that in the background. It was just so it was supposed to be obviously like an over the top dramatic thing but I'm like McGonagall was not randomly like not gonna run after somebody and she wasn't going to take 200 points from someone like I was like, This is ridiculous. Oh, I love the moment when McGonagall comes to the what is it to the hogs head? And she's yakking and then Abra force like sorry, I'm sorry, Minerva, for calling you Assad or whatever. Apology except

it's a read the sign or something? Yeah. I know. Like, I don't have any specific qualms with that actress or anything. But it was. It was a fact it was. Yeah. Yeah. When she clearly Yeah, I mean, but you're a proponent of time travel. So maybe she maybe there's some time travel shenanigans going on there. Who knows? It's fanfiction, so anything can happen.

Dumbledore of the future told Minerva that she'd be needed in the 20s. So he sent her back to the 20s. Do ya? Who knows? I need you to protect the students in the whatever I mean, who knows? There could be all kinds of reasons.

Yeah. But the point is, the whole point of doing an episode like this was really to point out that there was a lot of good in the film about their relationship, but no, I'm guessing that we've sort of touched on everything to do with the film. So you wanted to sashay nicely into Godric Tolo Yeah.

So I'm trying to remember like, if how long they knew each other for because I know that like Geller like came and was there staying with his aunt, right? Like was it back shot was that his

wishes? fulfilled the back shot?

I didn't I think it was because he Yeah, cuz it was like because she introduced because she was close to the Dumbledore is and then she introduced him because I think what was it like he came to stay with her because he was either expelled from Durmstrang sent away or something like that. I feel like

we don't really know as well because all of this is being filtered secondhand through Rita Skeeter. So we have to, we have to take everything Rita says with a pinch of salt because we know she's prone to sensationalism and you know throwing glitter on the truth or from

his grade is great. aunt was Matilda Bagshot because that was one of the main reasons why Rita talks to her was because of the relationship between the two men. So, yeah, so like he comes and of course, like, either what is it? Yeah, just like Elvis gets to know this, you know, brilliant boy. And they spend time together because from what I can understand, like, they're kind of even though it's God Rick's hollow like, as far as like people around their age, it feels like they were rather the double doors were rather isolated from or seen as odd because of the Father situation of going to ask a band for attacking the Muggle children and like, and it's a it's a Muggle village, right. Like they just happen to live. Yeah, it is in this Muggle you know, village, but they're magical family. So for him to find someone at his level, intellectually, was probably very freeing and exciting for Elvis, you know. So I think that that was probably a good reason why they did connect from the beginning and Gellert had all these grand ideas and thoughts. And then you see from letters, the few letters that we see that it's like them going back and forth with very, like, plan, like planning intellectual conversations of like how things would work. And so it was just, it's just, I feel like, intellect, Elvis, his love language.

He definitely, it took him a while to, to know what love was and internalize it, I think, and I, he has to get to a really old age before he has a good enough working understanding of it. And that's why he always says to Harry, you know, you're, you know, Harry's always like, but why is love my greatest strength whenever Voldemort has all of this magic, and he's so powerful. And what Dumbledore is actually saying to him is, is because you know, you have a real like, capacity for it. Whereas some people have to work their way up to it, they have to intellectually understand it first before they can feel it. And Harry's Harry just feels it, you know? Because, well, Harry is oblivious and he has his own issues. But one of the one of the good things about Harry is he's a very fierce love fist sort of person. That I think that's something that Dumbledore sees in him, and is sort of, you know, sees it as a lack in his in his self as well, you know, because I think what you're saying about intellect, being his love language, I think his obsession with galette, because that's what it will have had to have been, but was really started because not just because he was this incredibly powerful wizard, or good looking. But because he was like he is suddenly someone who is someone who I identify with. And because of that leap than everything else became possible. Because you know yourself, like when you have your first crush, it's sort of more intense than everything else that follows at, you know, sure, you can have intense feelings, but nothing quite hits you like that first time when you're not expecting it. And I think for someone that didn't have a, an advanced understanding of what we're calling love for the purposes of the pod, that's going to hit even harder, because he wouldn't have known what to do with it.

And of course, I think that obviously, per the rules of the wizarding world if they hadn't had that explosive duel, and Ariana hadn't died, those two would have been married, because you get married immediately. Yes. So it was interesting to see like how something so strong could deteriorate at an insane instance, because I feel like that was the beginning of Dumbledore is regret of not being present for his family, like ultimately focusing on his aberporth Like tells us about it when you know, obviously in the final book, when Harry and Hermione they're there, and they're talking about it, like he was focused on his ambitions and his goals and his dreams and all the things that he was going to do and the powers that he possessed to help and you know, other people and yet his family was definitely like back, you know, backburner. It was like it was definitely Galera at first and then family after Oh, yes. But then the moment where when finally his sister died, and it was and what and even in the movie did he say that he just like that? Fertile wild laughed. Like there was something that he was like, he just thought it was silly that they are like he laughed at aberporth for pulling his wand and then Dumbledore did because of you know, whatever and things happened. And so I think it was finally the point that he realized that maybe, maybe what what do you think do you think it's possible that Grindelwald started from a young Young age with manipulating Do you think he actually loved Dumbledore or he saw the weakness of him having love for him and manipulated that because we see that manipulation later on, like in the movies and how he can, he can get people to love him like he can manipulate people into following and loving him. So I'm curious if he actually genuinely loved him, or if it was just like, he was there and was convenient, and he was a person that he could use that love and affection to reach an end. You know what I mean? Well, if

you look at a lot of the Grendel wild personality traits that we can see, we know he has an overinflated sense of self importance. We know he is incredibly charismatic. We know he's incredibly ambitious and driven to the point of selfish self interest. And these are all characteristics of at the very least, narcissistic people and at the very most, sociopaths and psychopaths, right? So and there is a certain so why that's interesting is that sociopaths and psychopaths tend to lack empathy for other people. So they can ape it, they can mimic it, but they can never really be genuine in their affection. And I think that's what's going on with Grendel world. I think Grendel world was equally excited by meeting someone on his level, but to the point where he was like, Oh, great, you know, he has a, you know, a comrade in arms, that, you know, we can you sort of have dominion over the world together, and it will all be on my shoulders. From what I've seen, and from what I infer, I don't think there was ever any real genuine affection there because I don't think for galette there could be Gallo is too interested in himself galette loves himself. And that's the saddest thing about this, is that if you've ever had feelings for a narcissist, you'll know what I mean when I say that it is a very, it's a very one sided investment. And you know, you come to realize that sooner or later, but it doesn't, that doesn't make that any easier. And I guess that's another thing of like, that moment where they were touching hearts and the you know, the camera was panning between them. Even though galette is flesh and blood and very human. He acts in very inhuman ways. And it is, again, I'm gonna rehash this quote over and over till the day I die. But that Dumbledore quote of it's not our abilities that determine who we truly are, but our choices. You know, it's on galette that he's making bad choices, because he's acting purely out of what he believes to be this altruistic wizards saving motivation, because what's going to happen the Mughals is going to rise up and overthrow the wizards, you know, what does what does he believe the Mughals are capable of in this in this scenario? You know, yeah. So no, that was a sorry, that was a really Wofully way to say I don't believe he was capable of the loan. Yeah,

but yeah, so yeah, so I think it was like that showed how easy it was him for for Grindelwald to leave, you know what I mean? Like he was just like, oh, like we had our fight and we're going our separate ways. And he just left and he continued on his thing whereas Dumbledore was left to deal with the aftermath of like his sister and then being abandoned by you know, the the love of his life or what he would have, you know, considered the love of his life and it's just like, and you feel that through the movie like how like we hear and we feel the love that was there through Dumbledore his character, but we don't get really any of that from the Grendel wall character, like aside from him, kind of like poking and prodding, and almost like, almost like poking fun at Dumbledore for letting something so it's it's another instance of potentially Grendel wild feeling like love is a potential weakness or a verse like we're Baltimore's similar in that way of like, oh, to love his weakness or to be loved by My followers, like that is what you know, I deserve and I'm worthy of that loyalty and things like that. And so I definitely think that it's, yeah, I completely agree that it's in the sense of, like, Canon stuff, like, I believed that it was very much a manipulative relationship and that it wasn't, I believe that Dumbledore was probably very much in love with him or thought he was to the extent have, you know a teenage whatever, but I don't think Grendel Walt was capable of or if he was like, even if there was that bit, it obviously wasn't enough for him to choose Elvis over something else, you know what I mean? So yeah, so it's like his love wasn't as strong. Like, it was just it was like an it could have been fleeting, like you're just like, Oh, you were there, it was convenient. We had plans. And then once they were apart, it was like, he might have been like, well, bummer. He's not here. But you know, like you just like moving on with his life sort of thing. Whereas Albus has carried it, you know, obviously had, you know, at this point, 40 some odd years of like, of this past thing that still obviously affects him to a really strong degree. And yeah.

So do you think it would have been a more interesting choice to see a side of delet that was looking back on the relationship with rose tinted glasses and having that empathy and genuinely being loving? And then seeing the the moment where that shifts?

Because I think that that would that would humanize him in a way that we didn't get with, like Tom Riddle involved? Like, yeah, they that was a character that was like, okay, 100% lacked empathy. And just for the sake of like, a lot of there were a lot of people that were lesser, like, if you weren't pureblood if you weren't, you know, Muggle whatever, like he just didn't have it was 100% manipulation. So it's like, you can see those in Gellert, but I feel like to have a villain kind of, like we do see with an Umbridge character of like, okay, this is someone you've seen in real life, which, of course, we do, we have seen in the past, as far as someone coming into power with ideals and values that were very much skewed, and like unforgivable, and yet people followed them anyway. Like, to have that bit of like, even just like a slight tint to show a little bit of humanity in that person that either it existed and it like died as he got, you know, like, it was forgotten. But back then, like him actually acknowledging like, I did love you. But then things changed and other things were more important and like, and you were a different person. So how was I supposed to love that? You know what I mean? Like it just like, who knows, but I just, I think that it would make him a more dynamic character in that way to be another way he'd be different from like, it just being like, like, oh, there was also another dark wizard that was named Gribble, Wald, like, if he was a little bit more human over We definitely look at Baltimore's is very, barely human, you know, and I, yeah,

yep. Although with Tom, of course, you have the added thing of like, he was conceived with a love potion. So they say he was never going to be capable of love because the the father was under an enchantment, and it was all very, like sketchy. And we don't really have very much of galatz history. I do agree with you that it feels a little bit easy to have another villain who's just lacking in empathy and out for themselves when that could have been a lot more of a human story. I definitely think they were in lost with each other. I definitely think there was a lost there. Because I can see that in the way the elder Dumbledore lost after the Hallows and lost after power in that way. And I think certainly, that will, that's something that's mirrored in galette. And I can see the sort of the intensity with which they approached everything to be lusty in that same way. But I don't know. I as to how far they loved each other. I'd say if there was love in that relationship, it was a one way street. And you know, Dumbledore was projecting on to gallop to use him. And well tried to turn a phrase but

yeah, and who was to know that like they were actually like, in any way like truly intimately involved because like you can obviously have like deep love for a person without actually like, oh, like you like you're in love with them, but it's like, Oh, I haven't actually kissed him or been with him intimately that doesn't devalue how much I love you know, love that person. And so it's like, like we don't we don't know how intense that really was for them like at you know, at that age it very much could have like you said, even just the one sided of him believing and being told love and being shown in other ways but then either was something that you know, Gallup was able it never able to like, give him more because he wasn't actually, you know, like, I don't I don't know we just don't No, we just don't know, we can make up all these different things about, you know, what about their relationship back? You know, at that time and I don't know.

Yeah. So how good of a love story is it? How convinced Are you by the ship?

Well, I mean, I like that it exists because it's, it's, it gives us that view into when when love doesn't have that happily ever after like it doesn't, it could be an absolutely could have been a true love story but then obviously, either the feelings of of making choices of what was right over, just going along with someone because you're in love with them. So it's like, it was a way to kind of give a little bit of our own empathy and sympathy to Dumbledore his character to show that like, he did live his life carrying a lot of burdens and loss being like, regrets with family and things like that. And actually having this this love that perhaps he carried as like, would always have been his only love and having to defeat him and put them in, you know, put them in prison and all that stuff like that man has had a really complex, you know, life span of things that happened to him. And so that obviously, like affect who he is as a person, but I don't know, like I I guess I'm definitely not convinced that it was real, you know, like, I'm not convinced that Geller was actually invested. And if he did love him, it was definitely very fleeting and very weak. And it was something that like he could even internalize as something like it was something he could walk away from, obviously, versus like, you know, which plenty of people make that choice like even is like, like, even in our everyday lives. Like you could be with somebody and you could really love them, but then find that there's something really toxic about the relationship. And you know, that is even if you do love them to whatever extent you do, if you stayed where you were with who they are, it's not good for you. So it like it showed the opportunity to literally walk away from something versus like, I feel like rental walled abandoned, whereas Albus was like, forced out of it, but then realize that it was probably the best thing to happen to him. Yeah. And he did make the choice to stay behind. I'm sure he could have followed him like he could have probably gone after him or whatever, and then never chose to, because I don't think that they met again until like, decades later. Right. Like they hadn't even interacted since he left God Rick's hollow. Yeah, yeah. So

yeah, so that had to be a really brutal awakening to the truth of that situation. I mean, obviously, you know, any death is going to any death on anybody's shoulders got to be mortifying, but I think to to have Albus realize that okay, because of his actions, and his hubris, he's caused this at least in part, I think that is, then what drove him to be like, Okay, how am I not going to do this again, and you know, we see when Gambon, Dora is in the cave with Harry, and he's drinking the potion, and they have their you know, Kevin may seem, you know, that that still being motivated out of the guilt of seeing Ariana die, you know, all those years later, so, it is still haunting him throughout his life. And I, I suppose my question to you is, would you rather conceive of an AU, where Albus and Galat did get together in some fashion? Or would you rather see Elvis with somebody else?

Oh, jeez. That's really, I mean, of course, it's like, when I think of Elvis was someone else then it comes into it's like, okay, who would that be? Would that mean like an original character, which not that I'm not convinced by original characters? I just don't necessarily read them very often. But like, yeah, thinking about like, who he I don't know, like, who he would be with, but it's like, I would like to think that there could have been a time depending on how much time there were together to like, if if it started out as very innocent and definitely, like, strong, firm friendship. And then love grew from it. And then, and then the darkness came in later. Like, it was like, Oh, I started thinking these things. And it's like, oh, let's look into it. And it gradually turned into something more toxic. So it had like this really strong foundation of their relationship when they first met. I don't I don't know. But I'm like trying to think it's like as far as an AU like the other would be Taking, I mean, we'll be dealing with a lot of fanfic of like, oh, Baltimore next. Baltimore never existed, like, so it's like if, like, if we don't care about literally anything to come afterward, like, I like I just need to read more of them. But I know that there's a fact that I didn't, it's been on my list forever. And I meant to read it for this episode, I just didn't have time. But it was like, a letter thick of like them writing each other over the years. So it was like them actually staying in contact. And which I think is, you know, to have to give some substance to their relationship versus like, oh, he left and then we they didn't see each other again, until pretty much like the great battle of them facing off. You know what I mean? Like,

and there are other ways for them to communicate as well. I mean, Dumbledore, I think pioneered that whole talking Patronus thing, or at least taught the order how to use the talking Patronus is, so he had to have been aware of it, whether or not he was aware, at a young enough age to communicate with Gallup, we don't know. But they're healthy, you know, just because they're not seeing each other. It's like now where, you know, we were not physically in a room with one another. But there are other ways we can communicate, I have to think that there are magical means for that as well. It's a bit of a pathetic excuse to go, oh, no, but they never saw each other. So nothing happened. You know, it's like, it's like those memes those, you know, where they go. Like, they take a character from myth or legend and they go after so and so died. His best male friend wept over his tomb for three days. And then historians underneath go so were they best friends?

Yeah, yeah. And I think and then I think that that like waters down it just like felt the more I think about cannon stuff with these two, it literally is like, it just waters down the importance of the relationship other than just this random, fleeting summer romance that it's like the that was just one of the several things that haunted Elvis you know, like I don't I don't know that I can come away as like this. If things had gone differently that they actually were in love or it would become something else but I definitely would read a story that was different in that way of like, of it being like him showing up and that like meet cute of like, oh, this is my great nephew and then like that, like, oh my gosh, he's you know, he's gorgeous. And oh, he's so smart. And it's like, and he's funny and whatever. And it's just giving you that cute like summer love thing would be really fun to read for them and and that potential they're like, I don't know, but as far as like Dumbledore it definitely makes me sad that from what we understand, like Dumbledore didn't find someone else. Like, yeah, he just I don't know that he he just carried so much regret. And I feel like it's sad that he either he didn't think he deserved happiness that he needed to to carry the pain with him and just have that be what you know what he holds. And it's like, I just, it just that makes me really sad. You know what I mean? Like it makes me sad. Sad to think about

Yeah, it definitely is. It's really sad because we he doesn't get that closure. He doesn't get the closure that I go on about every single episode of like, I want my characters to end somewhere happy. He never get stopped because you can say, oh, it's because he's feeling guilty because of you know, that Ariana thing all because he's still hung up on this love that will never be fulfilled, you know, but I think he thinks it's because of some defect in him. That the power hungriness of his you know Machiavellian tendencies he sees as his biggest weakness and that it tends to overrule everything else that he does. So I don't think he thinks he's worthy of the kind of love He wants other people to have and that's probably Dumbledore his biggest you know character or I don't want to say floor but hung up you know?

And he could definitely be someone like whereas we see of how he disregards family like he could to some extent be have narcissistic qualities so like was easy for sure cut off a motion for his family until it was something that he literally had to like deal with head on like he was there and saw his sister essentially hit the floor. You know what I mean? Like it was it'd be easy for him to disassociate like who knows that he like he talks about like, oh, I cared for Harry and I wanted what was best for him at the but at the expense of literally a bunch of other people like No, it's literally like, I want Harry to be happy until he has to die. And but of course, I'm going to manipulate a bunch of other people, that's going to affect them in a negative way just so that Harry can have, you know, some limited happiness or whatnot. And so I don't know that I'm

even hurry, you know, even his love of hurry, that's questionable from the get go. Because he leaves a baby in the dead of night on a doorstep in the freezing cold. Like, I like nobody. No one claiming to love Harry that much would also have put Harry through that much stuff, or at least, I think I could even see through that. If at any point in the books, he'd gone. Now listen, Harry, here's the skinny, you know, the stitches that you're a Horcrux if you're an unintentional Horcrux here's what that means. Here's what you've got to do. I'm sorry, but those are the breaks. But now, all the way through the books. He's just like, that's, that's not appropriate for this time. I'll tell you later. I'm gonna go off to Bermuda. Who knows? You know, I don't know why Dumbledore felt the need to string him along and play him for a fool for so long. Unless he thought in a, you know, typically misguided way that not giving him the information would be better because of the whole legitimacy thing. But even that is a flimsy, a flimsy argument that doesn't hold up. Because, you know, his Well, his just his even his appointment of stuff in the school. It tells you something about how much he actually cares for the kids under his duty of care. It's not it isn't the greatest. So yes, I have a lot of sympathy for Dumbledore that he never finds the love that he needs. But also he isn't really he doesn't really demonstrate love to a degree that I find is acceptable for a socially balanced adult. Like, yes, of course, it's fiction, and you need people to be elevated and all the rest of it. But you're also like, I wish he just had someone in his life to be like, hang on a minute, that decision is totally garbage.

He didn't have any there was no checks or balances with Albus Dumbledore. Like everyone saw him as this great wizard, this strong wizard this good wizard so there was no one to counterbalance him like even other than the fact of like us giving him like props for like, oh, I never wanted to be Minister of Magic. I never wanted to be someone in power, but also it's like oh, but being headmaster of Hogwarts does have you know, some semblance of like power and influence on on things and right so yeah, I just I think that the problem that we see even through the series is like if Dumbledore says trust it, you know, like even in the movie, we get that of like, Dumbledore says, Do what's right and what's not easy. And the guy's like, like, you know, the whatever air whatever like who used to be the whatever the ultimate. Yeah, King. I don't remember what it's called. Wizard King.

I love that row. What's your job? Oh, I'm the ultimate wizard King. How long have you been in boast? Well, I had a crown in step two mode A while ago Oh,

but uh, but yeah, it's like it's there's a there's a bit of arrogance there to think that just because he said that someone will do you know, like, even even with the plan to through this last movie, like, everyone just had to go in like, oh, dumb. He just says to what is it? Theseus? Is that nutes? Brother? Yeah. Theseus Yeah, so like, even like Dumbledore says to him, it's like, you know, you're just gonna have to trust me, even if everything is telling you not to, like you need to trust me. Like, there's some there's a lot of arrogance in that to expect someone to not question you. So it's like, that's just yeah,

like, and also never forget as well, that these are so he's headmaster of Hogwarts. Now he has influence over the magical minds of kids from age 11 and up, and in a lot of instances like that, like where he's talking to Theseus. That's coming from a position of like, I used to be your teacher. So you'll listen to me. And there's something very, like I always use to think, oh yeah, it was really noble of Dumbledore not to go after the minister job, but just to stay on Hogwarts, because he loves to teach. But there's something almost more sinister in staying in teaching, because it says something about like, he doesn't trust kids to develop on their own without his influence and his mortal like view on the world. And the reason I say that is, if you think back to the end of the fourth book, whenever he's giving the speech about Cedric, and saying, you know, that we'll have to unite within the castle walls, because forces outside of them are conspiring to divide us. Yes, that's a very relevant speech, and its message is pertinent. But consider who it's coming from, consider who couldn't even unite the warring forces in himself, who still went after the hollows? And ultimately, you know, we're left to think what sort of moral authority is Dumbledore on anything, actually, whenever he's really weak to these temptations and these negative influences himself?

Yeah, no, that's very true.

But like, I still, like I, despite all of that, I still like him as a character. And I think that's testament to his character. And to some degree to the performances of the actors, even though you know, as you know, I'm not a big fan of gun bundle, just personal opinion. But it's that thing of someone can be so weighted down under their own hangups, but still, ultimately, be a lovable character. And I still think he is lovable despite the all the rest of it, because I think he thinks his motivations are good. And that's, I'm not saying that redeems him. But it colors him in a way that like, he's not being he doesn't believe he's being ruthless because he wants to position people like pieces on a chessboard, the way Voldemort would, he thinks he's doing it because he has a better understanding of the way the world works, paradoxically, because he's outside of it, you know, because He's the great outsider who's never had that true love experience. You know, he's like, so I know how people can be manipulated. So I'm gonna formulate the grand strategy to fight evil, but I still think he is there's good in him to use a sort of a Star Wars ism with you know, Luke and his father and all that.

Yeah. And and you think about it like fudge still with like, write letters to Dumbledore. So it's like Dumbledore still had, you know, that influence. And then wasn't he like he was on the wizard Mott, like he was the head of the wizard. Yeah, like he had a lot of influence and you think about like influence on a school, like you're molding the minds of the future that would be governed. So it's like you're, you're molding versus dealing with what exists. So I mean, it's just, I don't know, they're just Dumbledore. So gray.

Yeah, and the thing is, the reason I like to bring him up a lot, I suppose is because he's my Snape. He is what Snape is to you. To me. Where you I know you love Snape. And you have like, well, go and listen to Snape chat for further information. If you don't believe me, Max has a lot of thoughts about Snape. And similarly, I have a lot of thoughts about Dumbledore. But I think it took me a while to get to the point where I appreciated Snape as a character because there were moments where I didn't genuinely believe he was trying his best, I just thought he was trying to, you know, have his cake and eat it too. Now I see that differently through having, you know, talk to you, and through having listened to nature and stuff. And I suppose, you know, there have been equal and opposite reactions to Dumbledore. But the great thing about these grey characters and I think it's why we keep coming back to them is because they're so gray and because you can take them one way or another. That also gives you license as a reader of fanfic as a writer of fanfic to do what you want with those characters. It gives JK Rowling license to write Fantastic Beasts with the characters you know. And I before I watched the film this film, I didn't really I was nowhere near as invested as in the Dumbledore Grendel world relationship, but I feel like this film has cemented for me purely because of Matt's Mickelson and Jude Law. has cemented for me the idea of their if not their relationship than the emotional intensity of their sort of mutual hatred like, what that what the relationship has left behind. And I suppose this is a really weird place for our episode to be because we normally go like how much do you love the ship? Or how much are you invested in them? And with this because we're dealing with something that's in the past, concretely, you can't be invested in them because you know that they don't end up together romantically. Even though there is an AU somewhere where they're both on a beach in Hawaii, cocktails, you know, just shading themselves under a big tree.

Or literally being both being the what what did I even called The Ultimate wizard key. Yes.

Together. Just like one has the tiara and one has the scepter like switch between

them. Oh, man. Yeah, yeah,

I can see Dumbledore being like today I'm going to be the ultimate wizard queen. And prancing. Yeah, it's, that would that would be a look. That's also why Dumbledore needs multicolored robes clearly because he needs to swish the robes. The lock needs to be complete. Please Like I just need that to fit within my fantasy, please. And thank you. And if you are in a fan art mood and you do want to draw me some like decent Dumbledore outfits. Yeah, those up me please.

Better not gray. Yeah, Muggle suit.

You're right. Because even don't even gamble on Dora has his gray fares and his gray bathrobe with the tassels.

Just like literally with arms.

Yeah. And then he has and then he has like his carpet slippers. It's not a it's not a good look. Is it? It's just like they got the wardrobe for Mrs. Figg. And just what will give that to Dumbledore.

Oh, man, yeah, I definitely agree. And the fact of like, this movie made me invested in them for sure. Whereas before, it was like, Okay, we read about this possibly being a thing when they were younger, but it didn't, there was no emotional driver for me to like, really, like be invested or care about it. But to I think it definitely you had to see to see it to see it played out for me and the in the emotions behind it with those two actors and the characters like it really was like, oh, like it makes me it broke broke my heart to think that that was a love loss, you know, especially because I could see that there was still a very strong love on Dumbledore wars, end of things, but he just he knew that they were on different paths, and just had to accept that. So if I hadn't seen that I like yeah, like even in the second movie, like the only thing that I had to kind of emotionally move me was the moment that Dumbledore was looking into the mirror of era said like, that was kind of it of like seeing him and them as as young boys and then actually see like Geller as like, true to time there. And so it's like, he's still obviously has that, you know, that present love and desire to have and be with, you know, that person be that like, romantically or it's for, for him to make a choice to not move in the direction that he was currently, like, on the trajectory of you know what I mean? So but yeah, this the movie definitely did it for me too.

But you have to wonder in the mind of Dumbledore what's going on there, because he's clever enough to know that there are even plenty more wizards in the sea. You know, he's clever enough to know that he needn't just like because he's seen countless love stories around him all the time. So he knows it's possible. And I have to wonder if it's like a choice, a conscious choice he's making to be like, no, because I messed up so badly. Right? I clearly I don't want to do that again. But it's almost like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Because you have to wonder if he'd made the choice to love somebody else. Would his character have turned out differently? You know, would he still be teaching at Hogwarts at 150? Or would he be you know, taking time off to spend more time with his remaining loans? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I knew you'd have to imagine that. Be Being like you think of Dumbledore and how how he has the Order of the Phoenix, he has people that follow him that love him that trust him, like there had to have been people who fell in love with him, like there had gone through his lifetime of having that and either made the choice to not, or maybe he did have an alternate love story that that happened. And he could have spent potentially 50 years with someone and then lost another love or whatever. And, but then you still like we kind of said before, it's like you don't forget your first like, you still, that's going to still have an effect on you or whatever. But it's like, you know, he's, he's the person who's like, people look up to him, you know, if we're going off of the Jude Law route, extremely attractive, like, there's no way like, apart from like, whether anyone knew that he you know, that he was like a gay man that, you know, at least there were tons of women who were like all about Albus Dumbledore. You know what I mean?

Yeah, absolutely. There has to have been in his life opportunities for the happiness that he didn't pursue is what you're saying. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I, I am frustrated with the character for that. That frustrates me because he is clever and wise enough to know that that's possible for him. And he is actively not pursuing that, which that is a choice. And then makes me you know, less sympathetic to his self imposed. What's the right word here, chastity, abstinence. So anyway, you know what I mean? I just, he's cut himself off from that side of himself. And that feels damaging, and yeah, hurtful. And I suppose this is why I would like to see Dumbledore with somebody that could make him happy. I say this about every ship. But I do think certainly a younger Dumbledore could have been I don't know if the older Dumbledore we see by the time we get to the likes of Harry six year you know, like by that stage, he's made too many choices. He's gone down too many roads he's become too committed I think. But certainly a younger Dumbledore maybe even a Dumbledore coming off the back of the end of the wall with Grendel world could have made other choices. And I would love to see, I don't know, I'd love to see at AU where we see him with somebody else. You know, maybe we see him with somebody in the ministry. Maybe it's an OC, there aren't really enough potential interests for him that we know. Because it's so subtle that he has to be in love with Grendel world, so I get to, but it makes it harder to visualize who that would be. Who the who the sort of the stabilizing influence for him would be.

Yeah, no, I just now I need to look, I need to look at just Albus Dumbledore and I don't know I'm gonna have to look and see what has been written for him because yeah, I want him to have something. Something

well even like, if he like got together with Theseus, I wouldn't be mad about it.

Actually, yes.

Like, I know this, this slightly weird thing of like, he obviously taught the CES at Hogwarts. Right. So

but he's the head of the art department. So he has to be significantly had a decent have a decent age. You know what I mean? Like, it might be like a 10 year age difference if you think about it, which isn't, you know. But yeah, but did it Newt panned out? That doesn't make sense either. I don't know. Because then he wouldn't know. Because I know. I guess just Dumbledore would be a young teacher. So yes, it would be fine, but it's just yeah, so it might not be so bad, but, but no. Okay, I love I love that because they mutually come together out of the dramatic loss of their love.

Oh my goodness. Yes. The

love of Dumbledore. slife took the life of the love of put, you know suppose of love. Oh, Theseus. Oh, that's

perfect. You've just target that ship with a great big bow and I'm here for it.

So we've gone on this journey to tell you all about Grunwald and Albus Dumbledore and how they don't work just end up with Theseus and double door V. This is where we're at people. We have we have discussed the ship and now we are at the ship of all ships.

Coming next Hi.

Oh, now I can't unsee Oh, that's so lovely to picture I love that so much. Yeah,

but again, you know other characters that are available if you have different hand cannons for who Dumbledore should end up with sent those tools as well. Care of Magical shippers podcast gmail.com. Find either one of

us somebody, one of us. Yeah.

We both see the emails anyway, it's just a question of who gets to reply first,

but yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah, so definitely. Oh, and we'd love to hear what you think as far as like for Grendel door like do you feel like it was real love? Do you feel like there's you know, a foundation of something true and real. They're like, what do you think Alice's feelings are versus Grendel walls feelings? Like, it's obviously can go any which way we'd love to hear what you think and what how you feel about this pairing. Because there's just a lot of different ways that this can go. So yeah, yeah. All right. Well, I think we yeah, we we we hit a lot of stuff with these pieces too. And now I can't stop thinking about Dumbledore. Because now, now I'm picturing the moment where he like asks him to trust him. Like in that moment where he approaches him and he like has a hand on his shoulder or something like that's their moment. That is when their love starts. So this is their this is the beginning of their love stopped by spark of electricity. Oh, that's so true. Oh, my gosh, so good. Because obviously he's available his fiance's dead.

That's terrible. But also, yes.

Okay, so I need to I need to make a comment that it's like, okay, Creedence my dude, what are you eating that your beautiful luscious hair grew so quickly? Over the span of whatever it was like a year or something like that, but yeah, had gone in between and I'm like, Dude, how could you It took two years of a pandemic for it to reach my shoulders like I am in my and I had link to my hair to begin with. And he starts with super short and it's just like, this low. Whatever, but I just thought it was

the one moment where he was definitely channeling Snape in that film. It was like levels of her Yeah, I know you did. I watched it. I thought Max is gonna love those scenes.

It was literally feel it was like strong young Snape energy and I was so here for it. And he's equally like as tormented and broken and like just Yeah, anger and whatever. And I'm just like, yes, yes. Oh my goodness. But

um, there was so much like, because I was like, how are they going to round out that story? Like how it because is it just gonna be like credence goes and tries to assassinate him and it's really dull and Dumbledore thoughts and easily, but there was such an interesting like visual that they did where like the whole rest of the world falls away. And then Dumbledore like, like, like blast him away, but like gently into the puddle and then like it was so delicately done. It could have been so mishandled and that I thought that was really well executed.

Yeah, no, I loved I loved that. I loved that, figuring out who he was. And it not, you know, I mean, I just of course, he's our fourth son like of course, and of course, like Dumbledore wouldn't have known like I loved the moment when he's like, if I had been a better brother, maybe he would have confided in me and maybe things would have been different and so it's just and there's another thing for Dumbledore to carry with him to feel like he's responsible for his brother not knowing his son or like you know, I mean it's just oh, we had so much drama drama drama

and you were here thought it Yes, yes,

absolutely. Well, this was this was so much fun like this was great to talk about yes yeah, this was I'm not it I wasn't to talk about fantastic fantastic beasts in this way was actually really fun because I didn't I yeah, I just overall I was like not super invested in it. But now that I'm like, I acknowledge it as something separate from with its own like we said rules and world Yeah, and like an AU wizarding world essentially. And yeah, I just this was fun. I really liked it and I'm yeah now I'm totally in search of Elvis Theseus fanfiction like that's literally what I'm gonna be looking up for once we're done recording.

Oh, writing it let's be real.

Oh, man. Yes. Oh my gosh, I'm so in love with them now. I'm so sorry. Grendel walls

well, you Okay, how does chumps see? Johnson he was like, you know Dumbledore Theseus?

Like 10 times a man you are

facing is just sort of flounces up. And he's like, that's right. His robes billowing around him. Oh, that would have been a fantastic scene. Okay, I see Theseus as the sort of Draco Malfoy in that in that scene, where he's like, you know, fanfic, Draco Malfoy with the cape and the boots. Yeah. But that's definitely that moment. But I, I really enjoyed talking about this film with you. I was not optimistic about the third, Fantastic Beasts because I was not a fan of the second one. And then I came away from it thinking actually, for the most part, I really enjoyed this film. I'm getting to like, discuss Dumbledore with you, who's one of my favorite characters. I'm talking about the the ship with him and Grindelwald. Like I've been wanting to do this for a while. So it was really, like, I was just super excited.

Yeah, it was perfect timing to do it. When you came up with the idea. I was like, Oh, of course, we're gonna do that. Why wouldn't we do that? It just makes so much sense. And I'm so glad that I saw it literally yesterday, because that just that made all the difference. So because it's knowing my brain would just be like little bits and pieces would have been left there unless I watched it, you know, more than once or whatever. And so, but yeah, so well. So kind of like mini announcement that maybe won't be relevant, but I'm going to say it anyway. My house is going to be under renovation for like three to four months. So hopefully I can find. So we're hoping to find times that I can get back into recording and doing episodes and things like that. So possibly, this may not even matter. But I just wanted to let everyone know if like scheduling gets a little bit wonky and different. Or some you know, Nathan might have to do an episode with like a guest or something like that. That's why I'm not gone. It's just I I'm living with my parents, and I don't know if Harry Potter porn is what they want to be listening to. So it'll, it'll be it'll be an interesting time. So I'm excited. But also like, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a whole thing. So bear with me. I'm either still here or I will be back and we'll just we'll see what happens from here on out. So yeah,

I'm sure you know, we'll have more announcements about that as in when things just generally you should know that like, we might have to go on a little hiatus, or I might come back with a guest or something. Some things may change depending on circumstances, but we trust that you'll bear with us because you've stuck with us for the rest of this. So and Meg's isn't going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. It just might get a bit weird.

Yes, exactly. So an announcement and unbeknownst. But anyway, but that yeah, so thank you for listening to these rambles. Let us know what you think about Theseus and Dumbledore right now, Bunty, and Newt, whatever you want to talk, you know, to talk about and whatever and definitely send any wrecks if you know of anything that it is like Dumbledore and an alternative love interests like we'd love we'd love to, you know, to get any and all wrecks so definitely email those to us and or send them via telegram or anything like that. So Nathan's having the time of his life chatting with people on telegram.

Oh, I definitely definitely have like that is my jam. I love using my voice because it means I don't have to type because typing is not I can do it. But I'm not the world's fastest typer so if I can chat to you, I'm like, Yes, I don't have to actually like make words appear. Good. So also, if you want to send me any theories about how ABA thoughts child credence randomly ended up as an orphan in America when he had got when Creedence was supposed to be the child of him and a Muggle girl from the village.

I think so. Yeah.

But then randomly he's in New York in the went tease. What do you say to 20 cm?

What? Well, no, because they were the reason why Queenie and Jacob came to London was because they were more quote unquote tolerant of Muggle and you know, so I was thinking it was like, oh, it'd be a forbidden match of like, oh, it's an, you know, forbidden child and to be with a Muggle and then to, you know, whatever. And I don't know, but obviously there was some reason why she was going to America with the child without him. And yeah, that'd be Yeah. Why? Why did that happen?

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, either. But send me your conspiracy theories, because I'm really interested. And I want to fill up plot hole. But I also really liked that we did get more credence backstory, because I was worried that they were going to like to not give us that detail. And then they did and so that that was at least something that I I was satisfied by. But I feel like I've waffled on long enough. No, we should probably get to that bit where I awkwardly say.

Yeah, yeah. So, so anyway, thanks for listening. Like always. Until next time. Yeah, we'll we'll be here when we're here. Next.

Yeah, we have it. We have a couple of episodes banked anyway, so you'll hear us both at least for the foreseeable. But that but if and when things change, we'll let you know. All right, and bye. Bye for now.

Class classic, awkward goodbye.

So now that you've finished enjoying that episode, a bet you're wondering what we're going to be talking about next time. Will it be a ship? Could it be a trope? What about a character centric episode, editing makes put the listeners out of their misery. Next time we'll be focusing on

Hermione Granger and Fleur della core.

So come back to enjoy that, that you're really as possible convenience, but you know, preferably sooner rather than later. Because we do make it so you listen to it. And we hope you enjoy it. Remember your uncle Nathan's advice? Be kind to each other manager Mischeif and we'll catch you in the next one soon.