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Hi, everyone, this is DISA I'm super excited to have Asia with me today, Dr. Aisha Lyons. And we're just going to talk about some stuff I'm super interested in. But also kind of how I came to know you. So as some general background I posted on LinkedIn like, Hey, y'all, I got a big girl job. And he was like, welcome to Denver. I live in this area. Let's meet up. And then I just made her be my friend. And so now we're friends. Once a month, we try to get together and have lunch and just talking about what it's like to be black woman in Denver, and Aurora, but also what it's like to be in this education space, and just have these experiences in conversation. So I'm super excited to have you on the thoughtful counselor podcast. And maybe we could just start off with like, just a brief, like, what should we know about you? What are you most excited about today?
Sure. Hi, everyone. My name is Dr. Asian lions. So good to be on the podcast. Asa has a whole podcast out here was like, like real serious, like lots and lots of episodes. And I'm thoroughly impressed as usual. I have I'm originally from Detroit moved out to Denver in 2006, to be an educator, taught in a local district for 12 years, went into the nonprofit sector after that for a little bit. And yeah, I have a consulting firm and some another pack a podcast too called the exit interview, a podcast for black educators. And yeah, that's it. And what am I up to today was bringing me joy today. I don't know all the things the sun is out. It's warm, I have air conditioning, so I'm happy.
I mean, it was Asian knows more than anyone that I had a rough winter. I was like, is winter ever going to end
Snow was up the snow was making you mad.
The snow was we were not we're not besties. But now it's in warm 91. And I'm enjoying the sun on my face. Okay, so jumping into it, I really wanted to start with just the work that you're doing. And I have learned just so much about you over the last almost year now, which is wild. Because it feels like a lot longer. But also what connects us is our work in research, but just also space and time. And so it's curious, like, why you wanted to do work on Battle raishin fatigue, and like how that work came to be? And then how that has helped kind of move you into the work that you're doing right now.
Yeah, so I think that racial battle fatigue found me more than I found it. So as I said, I was a teacher for 12 years in a local school district and experienced a lot of racism related stress in the last couple of years of teaching. And so I decided to leave teaching and try some other things. And when I was starting to do my research from I decided on my dissertation research what I wanted to study, I fell upon the term racial battle fatigue. Actually, that's not true. I learned about it. Earlier in my career before I started doing dissertation research, but really dug into it more and realized what was happening to me in school, the racism related stress and the ways that it was impacting me and my family. I had a name for it. And so I was like, okay, it makes sense for me to do more research on the ways that racial battle fatigue impacted me and it's PACs, black educators and our family members. So it kinda was happening with my my research, that my research was my research and from that kind of pulled me into supporting community who was experiencing racial battle fatigue and I'm talking about it on my podcast, things like that. So yeah.
So maybe I should start this with what is battle ratio T and how do you define it?
Sure. So it's the responses that we the psychological, physiological, emotional, behavioral responses that people of color have to racism related stress. So there are six different types of races, six different types of racism related stress, racism, related life events, vicarious racism experiences, daily racism, micro stressors, chronic contextual stress, collective experiences of racism, and transgenerational transmissions of racism. So those six different according to Dr. Horatio, they'll six different types of racism. When we experience it as people of color, our bodies respond to it in very specific ways. So for example, we talk about silence, resentment, heart palpitations, inability to sleep, crying, these are ways that our body responds to experiencing this racism. And that is racial battle fatigue. Right? So that's what it is, it's a response to the racism that we experienced. So again, my research is really specific to like, how are black educators experiencing it? Or how are like educators experiencing responding to racism in their workplaces? Like, what types of racial battle fatigue
are they experiencing? That was my research? And that is still my research, really? Okay. So, as you're like, teasing out this question, right. And it sounds like, you're also experiencing this yourself as a black educator. Yeah. Like, what are your thoughts around? Like, why Black educators may be more susceptible, or like my experience fellow racial Teague more than like anyone else in that space?
Yeah. So teaching in itself, and when I'm talking about being an educator, I mean, school therapists, educators, paraprofessionals, administrators, what central office education already is very taxing, right? All these dynamics and policies and people. And then it is a very white space, white female dominated space, right. And so if you're in a stressful space period, that is white female dominated period, and you are a minoritized voice in that space in society, but it also in that space, then it kind of conflates, right. So we have all these things happening. And I feel like, that's why we see see it, I'm not gonna say more than any other space, but I don't know if that's true or not. But I will say you see racial battle fatigue happening in education a lot, which is why we have such a hard time with retention of black educators in teaching spaces, where maybe retention is not as big of an issue in other industries.
Okay, so as you're talking, I'm really thinking about, especially now with COVID, and like this double pandemic of racism and like, a kind of a racial awakening, but not really. And then also just how tax education has become like the amount of pressure we put on educators that, like, informs me to think that with battle racial fatigue, we then also see, black educators have to do some even heavier lifting of like, carrying rich conversations, making their spaces, brown, like all of these extra, like mental intelligence conversation, coupled with the connection of like, self preservation as well, like, I don't see a lot of just time and space to do be able to process. So it's also like the nonstop and so that's the part where I really think about not just like, racial battle fatigue, but then also the really the fatigue parts. Yeah. Like, just like the constant nonstop ness of it.
Yeah, yeah. So I heard someone a long time ago call that invisible labor. And I, yes, so they're visible labor of being an educator of color period is always there, right and then visible, it becomes invisible labor because we're not paid for it. And it and it also is not on our evaluations that help us get to mastery or whatever they want to come up with that grades work. But that the idea of youth or people, students or whatever age are constantly being our space reaching out to us because they were one of a few at a university or in a Cato space. And I felt like an I left teaching before the pandemic. And I still have folks in education that I'm friends with. So all of that, that we experienced, is now exacerbated, because there's less of us in the space. So with the great resignation, so I guess it was called not, there's even fewer black educators are educators in spaces. So the ones that are left are experiencing more students coming in to talk to them, or wanting to be can ask him to be committee chairs for the folks like all the things are happening, but people aren't getting compensated in any type of way for that work. And so then we ended up having to put some some boundaries in place around saying no, right? Not at this time, because it's just not enough of us. Right? And no, nor would there ever be enough of us.
Yeah, and as you're talking about, I also think, like, and I think he said, one of the not steps, but one of the parts of it was kind of this generational trauma. Yeah, part of that. I also think, right, like, it doesn't matter if you got out, like in 2020. Or like, if you got out in, like 2010, that constant momentum. Even if you weren't necessarily an active member in that momentum to begin with, you're then you then feel it later on. So it's like, yeah, if, like, I'm new, I'm like, I'm now going to be a second year faculty member. And even though I haven't necessarily been in my space, I still feel the like inertia and like the momentum of like all the black people who came before me, even if I haven't met them personally.
Yeah, so we talked about that transgenerational transmission of trauma, which I specifically give the example of Brown versus Board, right. And before Brown versus Board, we had 80,000, some odd black educators in America. And after Brown v Board, we have 40,000, which a majority of them were lighter skinned people. So we're still filling that in our spaces, right. And so on top of like you said, like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and you have educators like myself, who've left teaching, who will meet black educators, and they'll look at me, or they'll look at other people who have left teaching, say, I can do that. I can run a business, I can start a nonprofit, I can work in this space. And so there's this push out. That's happening without saying anything. And then there's also a pullout, right, where we're pulling those of us outside of education fields are saying, like, you don't have to deal with that. You can do this, you can do that you can work for these places that place. So we're, it's that constant feeling of that, right? And you hear stories of like, oh, yeah, such it's such as to work here. But she left four years ago, she lives two years ago that he was so dynamic, but he left a year ago, that's also that narrative of why are people leaving that's sitting on people's minds to like, you just say that it's there, even if you weren't there in that space five or 10 years ago.
Yeah, it's so interesting to me, because it's like, I spent a couple of weeks in Australia. And it's like, this same conversation was happening there as well in education spaces of like, which I was also like, not surprised, right? Like, every single country in the world is having a racial conversation, even if they're maybe not, as in it as we are in the US. But that same conversation of talking, talking to another black woman and having her explain her experience, and then having kind of like, oh, a white colleague of ours be like, well, that's the experience of like, most brown people at that university. And like, that's how everyone talks about it, right? And so I'm just like, like, it's almost impossible to change the narrative of how we support black and brown folks in these spaces. When, like the institutions whether it's a university or whether it's just education as a whole will always have this like attachments. Like the downfall of black and brown professionals, like Yeah, everyone who's done that or like nobody last there, right. And so I think as you're saying, like going back to going back to Brown of like, if we lost half of black educators, then they're like, we've always been behind like we've never, ever We're fulfilled that, like. And it's right. Like it's hard because it's like we shouldn't have to replace folks. But like, we've never brought in a new generation of black educators. And so no matter what it's always like, even if it's not a direct, like, oh, this happened in the 30s, or 40s. It's like, like you said, there's all these conversations about the people who left before you got here. Yeah. And even if you don't know them directly, you feel their presence just in the stories of like, and the wondering of like, why did they leave? Or like, what are they doing now? Or like, what is the conversation?
I had? I was at the movies a couple weeks ago. And I ran into one of my students, and he was 20. At the time, I told him, he was 11. He said, this is Lions, is that you? And I turned around, and he's like, I knew it was you. I came back to the school looking for you a couple years ago, but you weren't there. I thought you move back to Detroit. Right? And so he's a third student. And the last, I don't know, I say four or five months that I've seen. The said the same thing. I thought you moved away. And I think that's so that's why it's so important that we do tell our story. So that people understand, like, we get to finish up that narrative and say, like, No, this is what happened, right? Because our students are like, it's not just our colleagues, our students are looking for us. They want us to be there. And we've impacted them Blackwater. Otherwise, we've impacted them positively, hopefully. And so they want to, they want to see us back where they left us. Right? Because we hold it's a time capsule almost for them where the school is the same. They want you to be in that classroom. And that's not happening. That's not happening at all. So it's definitely impacting so many, like groups of folks. This conversation or this exodus of black educators, and it's long term Exodus first, again, with brown because we were educating our own in our own buildings, right. And then now that we are in white spaces, against happening to push out on the pullout, so yeah.
Yeah. And as you're talking about your student, I really like it kind of just makes me think about how much hope folks have to like, like a hope of like, Oh, you went back to Detroit? And like, maybe she's living your best life. This like, because there's, there's no, like, it's hard for people to not know what happens in the story. And so people end up creating this positive narrative of like hopes and dreams of like, what kind of occurred. And that also, I think, further influences the invisibility, and just the downplaying of the trauma happening in the space, when you're like, Oh, well, like Miss Lyons left, but she's like, in Detroit now, like living it up. She's an MBA, right? So it's like, still the same person they remember, but like, the narrative is very different, like you left, because, well, you had influences to leave, because the space ended up being toxic, and all these ways and like acting you. But it also seems like that, that part of the story is missing. Yeah, and I think this kind of goes back to the work of the podcast, is because there's, there's so many of us where the narrative that part is missing is kids all over this United States all over the globe, who are going back to their elementary, middle school, high school spaces, hire a space and looking for their educators. And they're not there. Right. And so,
but the children have to as they get older, right? They have to understand this is what's happening in our society. Their teachers are being pushed out of spaces. We are not well, right. And yeah, that's why I do the work that I do so that my students if they happen upon my podcast, can hear the story of like, No, I didn't just choose to go off to Detroit right. It's like it's not like you're just imagining it's quite cloudy, wonderful place and I'm like living my best life which I am in Denver and Aurora area, but it's not the way that they believe it to be right so yeah,
yeah, it also misses the intentionality, right? Like it's a conscious choice to say, like, I love this work, and I want to do this work. But in this capacity, this work is not healthy for me or is not fulfilling me in those ways. And so like the intentionality of leaving a space also, I think catches people off guard, like this idea of like, well, why would you leave a perfect job? Well, you only see an outside like you're only seeing what I show you. You're not actually like experiencing the role or like the late nights or the ends same faculty meetings are all about. Like, you're you have a limited time and space where you're having all these great experiences with me because it's the work I love to do. But that work isn't enough to sustain me in this space or sustaining long term in this profession.
Yeah. And like, how do you not to say that you said we should but like, how do you explain that to a sixth grader? Right? Even if I would have talked to my 20 year old student it at the movies like this is what happened to me. Like that's wildly like, I wouldn't say inappropriate, but she says, It's not the time to explain, like, this is what happened to your educator. And it may happen to you in your own place of work. Right. So, but yeah, that's exactly right. What you're saying? Yeah, I agree with that.
Yeah. And I also think great like, and I'm not sure if this really, like applies directly to racial battle fatigue, but in what we're seeing in like, racial identity in these other spaces, there's a heavy learning curve for people to really understand the impact of like, the sentence or the catchphrase, like, like, I can't just be like, like, you need to work on your racial identity and have people be like, okay, like at the movies like, Oh, that makes total sense to me lay. And so I also think about that, right? Like there's an innate privilege in the work we do at this like higher intellectual level to really understand why these concepts are so detrimental to our everyday lives. But often, and I think like in your podcast, often, like everyday folks listening, like even people listening to this podcast right now, don't have a full grasp of like, what that actually looks like in their daily lives, until they come across something like this. And then they're like, Oh, how do I dive in more? Or, like dr. Lyons experience sounds so similar to mine. And so I know what I'm experiencing is a reality. Like, it's not something I made up like this is actually real.
Yeah, yeah. i We interviewed Dr. Smith, on our podcast, he talked about how he was on a panel. And he has stood up to explain racial battle fatigue, and the man next to him just started crying. It was like, on this panel, because he could not believe that Dr. Smith had words for his experience. Right. And that's how I felt when I learned about racial battle fatigue. So many years ago, I was like, Oh, my God, there's a name for this. Like, it's not I don't have to explain the entire situation. Right? Yeah, I can just sum it up as this is what this is. And it is complex, but you do you start to dig into it, read about it more, look it up research, talk to people. And then you feel like oh, man, community, unfortunately, is a community. That's like couched in trauma, right? Like, that's the festy the seed of it, not to say that you stay in that traumatic place. But like, we are bonding because of our trauma. But it's good to know, like, you're not alone. And it's this term has been around this idea, this wording has been around for a very long time. Right? And that that in itself is comforting, I think for a lot of people, because then they can have an article to show their HR person or have an article to show other educators or whoever, fill in the blank, HR, whatever show like, show them like this is what I'm talking about. Take a read to this. And for unfortunately, for many of us, it is someone else's work. Someone else's article video, that is a catalyst for the, like the mindset shift for other people. Because it's not you telling them the story is Dr. Smith said so. Right or such and such printed an article in New York Times? And that makes it official. When you've been experiencing that, you know, it's real the whole time.
Yeah, I just think so much about, like the Power of Awareness. Yeah. Like, we have all of these experiences. And I think some are like, in shadow totally. Like, I hate talking about microaggressions because I feel like we talked about them too much. Like, because it's like, Okay, now what, like, what do we do? Yeah, we know this, like small little part of our experience. I think about this as well, like, especially in racial battle fatigue, it's like, it's such an integral part of our experience, but it's not your whole experience. And it doesn't define you as a person. But then when someone like, sees you, like the part of you that feels hidden, then you have this unique awareness to say, okay, like, this is accurate. And I think like you talked about with that man, he'd started crying because it's like, this is the first time I know this person sees me in space and contexts. But then I'm also right like as an educator, but also a counselor. Like what happens when they leave that's As like then why?
Yeah, it's interesting that you said that because I was just talking earlier today with a group of PhD applicants about like some of the now words. And when that was on our podcast, he talked about a couple of different things that he was suggest that folks do. One of them, he said was pick your battles, right? So folks who are not going to leave a place, it's like, Hey, I got para, I have bills to pay what I don't want to leave this is, this is good for me. Picking your battles. He talked about making your home your space, a place of refuge from racial battle fatigue, right. So if that means getting rid of some people, right, already, yeah, some folks that do that to help. He also talked about like leaving traditional education spaces for spaces that are more black centered. I know in Denver, we have the BLM Freedom School is opening or trying to open here. And I think that Brenton lockage executive director is really working hard to hire black educators. Right. So people have talked about that. So he has, he has some other suggestions about like how to circumvent that. I know when I asked people on a podcast like what can school districts unions hired to do to keep like educators something else their full talk about his advocating for a wellness stipend? Right, that and not just like three counseling appointments, but like five of this or whatever your budget can afford? I think the hard part about that is that seems more plausible in higher ed, and it does in K 12, or Eazy. E 12. Right. At least let me put let me back that up. It feels like it is I don't know if it is or not, like, I don't know what money districts have, until they're spending it on random things, or a million dollars came up missing. But like there's just lots of different ways. And then like he said, he talked about like loosely, staying grounded to the earth. He talked about eating well, exercise, things like that. So but I think there's some where folks don't want to hear is that like leaving the space? Like a lot of folks, I think in the beginning, they want to like fight to the end, like racial identity development does that space, right? Where it's like, we're gonna fight, we're gonna just keep on going. And we burn out, right? I was just talking with someone about ABA Elementary, someone was need to be that kindergarten teacher, where it's just like, Honey, burst it out. So where are you gonna bring yourself out? Right? Versus that first year teacher who just comes in and tries to do change the light bulb, and try to fix the air conditioner, like all the things. So yeah, and and obviously, all of this Situ is situated in, like, family dynamics, right. And so a part of the research that I was doing was not just on racial battle fatigue of like educators, but how it impacted the family. Right. So a lot of us may want to leave or do whatever it is that doctors have suggested, or people have an idea for. But it's not just us. A lot of us have grandparents, cousins, roommates, or fill in the blank pets that depend on us. So we can't just make them move in the ways that we would want to, because it impacts us. That being said, when we talk about recruitment and retention, at the, you know, in the in the spaces where that conversation is happening, those folks at the table also need to be thinking about, I'm not just retaining one black educator, I'm retaining that person's family as well, because I'm impacting that person's family, when they are not treated correctly. And if we started having more conversations about not just that individual person, but the family dynamics or roommates, the places of worship, like all those around that person, I think that we would be able to have a more humanistic conversation about retention of black educators.
Yeah, it really makes me think and you know, I love a good tick tock. But as I'm watching this tick tock where a black woman was talking about how she never gives two week notice, like she's like, I would never give a company two week notice that wouldn't give me the same two weeks notice. Like they're gonna fire me, let me out, like, lay me off, literally within a day, or they're gonna give me like maybe, like tells me at the end of my shift or whatever. And so why am i
Yeah, favorite on a Friday?
So like, why am I giving all of this grace and understanding to a company that doesn't give me back the same humanity? And I was really wondering, and maybe you could speak to some of this of like, I'm wondering if this has really changed with generations as well. Like, I very much love my job and most days, I love my job, and I appreciate being an educator all these ways, but I'll be damned. This job and it's like it right so. And also awareness of the privilege, I have to like, have that mental freedom to just be like, this ain't for me, I need to focus on me and figure it out. And so I'm wondering if that's also changing because of generational change, but then also, like, what we're just saying community like, I'm not sure, go ahead.
That's a good question. So for all those out here listening, I'm a millennial. I'm 40 years old. Okay. Yeah. So as far as like, what the other generations are doing, I think Gen Z is definitely giving Gen, like millennials, some more like, empowerment to quit. I remember when I was teaching, I never heard of people in my district, like quitting Meteor, we finished off the semester, and I did the same, like, I'm just gonna get this out to the end of the school year, because my contract blah, blah, blah. And, you know, and I'll talk about this a little bit like the contract. When I left teaching, I had to pay the district back money for my health insurance, like $2,000. Right. And some people don't want to do that, which I get. Um, but yeah, like the like Gen Z has definitely taught us to, like, just quit that job. It doesn't matter if you have a contract that people are having you pull your hair out, can you just respectfully get up and go? Now. So as far as like, when I listen to people's stories on our podcast of like, how they left and when they left? I've had folks Yeah, and finish finish up the school year. I've had people quit the same day, I had a woman who she said that like, the night before, God was like, It's time to go. And she just quit the next day. Right? And so it varies. People make a decision, and they just leave whenever they're ready. But I don't know if it's good. I think Gen Z has definitely given us older generations more. More courage to do so.
Yeah. And I think as well, right, and I think it's that generation, but I also, like, in my own experience, I just keep thinking about the impact on my mental health. It's just like, is this former month's worth? Yeah, my mental health like, or like what I might experience? And I think, especially that, especially around racial battle fatigue, I'm just like, if you don't quit, and then every day, it's a reminder that you should have quit. Yeah,
yeah. No, like on this side of it. Like what 2018 We weren't having conversations about mental health that we were having. Now. The pandemic has definitely had us talking about that more. And again, like I said, when I was experiencing all that racial battle fatigue and racism related stress, when I was teaching, there were I didn't have the language to even say like, this is a pet. Like I knew it was impacting my mental health, but it just wasn't all it didn't come together in a clear picture. The Asia 2018 and the Asian 2023 are not the same person. Right? So yeah, even in my consulting business, if people try to make moves or say things are acting away, oh, this is it. So it's my last day, right? I'm not going to put up with that. Right. And I do understand that this is my money. But you're not nothing's worth my mental health. But the 1212 year educator back then, did not have language for that.
Yeah, and Sophie said earlier, right, like also acknowledging the fact that not everyone can quit or people don't necessarily have the financial ability just to like jump ship or whatever you want quiet, quitting, whatever we want to call it. And something I talk often with my psychopharmacology students of like, how do we help our clients, the people we work with see the long term end goal. So like, if the end goal is you not no longer being in K through 12? And you want to instead be a consultant? Then it's like, how do we lay out a plan where every year like even if it's a one year plan, or like a three year plan, like how do we lay out a plan where you're putting stuff in place that makes quitting more of an option for you so you don't Asli feel kind of stuck or just like chained to your current circumstance. And I know for me and in most of our listeners will really just connect with what you said about like, the Asia 2018 is very different than the person now. And I often think of that as well like I'm completely night and day different person than I was even Last year, let alone four or five years ago.
Yeah, no 100%. And I always tell people to when you're thinking about leaving, but it can't be right away. Start thinking about your current workplace as school. Like, what can you gather? What information can you think about that you can take with you to your next step, whether that'd be entrepreneurship, and other business, like whatever it is, like, what can you say like, okay, that system works, or, Oh, I love this thing, I'm gonna make sure that reach out to this person when I leave, like whatever that is, make sure that the time that you spend, is spent. Looking for opportunity. Right, I think that's, that's the thing that I want to advise people on because it can be really easy to go on to work every day. And then let that racial battle fatigue keep you from living your brilliance, right, because you're crying. And because you're worried because you're resentful. Because you are eating you have tension headaches, you're not able to think about the creative ways in which you can show up for yourself in other ways. So yeah, that's a big piece of it is make the plan and work the plan out and don't have other people try to convince you not to leave. Yes, a thing too. I've seen that where folks like, Oh, you're gonna leave here this Good job. Oh, Lord, the good job, right. That's my Boomer, that's my Dad, please do that good job, blah, blah, blah. And then they'll leave their they'll leave like, Wow, another opportunity somewhere else. Like, wait a minute, you told me three weeks ago, or a month ago that I should stick in there, and I got good benefits. And I have para and I have health insurance. But you're leaving? Right? So don't be in that place, either. If you had sold, listen to so many people that you don't listen to yourself, and what you need.
Yeah, what? As you're talking, I was really thinking about kind of it's like, underlying theme of like, don't let your current circumstance steal your beliefs and excitement for your future. Like, yeah, don't let your current circumstance keep you from your act like your your actual meant to be future. And I and I think that's, well, I know, that's one of the most detrimental things about racism, and especially racial battle fatigue, have, like, people end up treating you a certain way for so long, that it's really hard to not buy in to the things people say about you. You really have to be like, how do I how do I ground myself enough to know that this has nothing to do with who I am like, people are treating me this way? Because I am a light or I am. I am the example that they wish they were themselves. And so how do I take those skills and those tools and move myself into the next level? When everyone else is telling me that? Like, I should feel grateful or lucky that I made it this far.
It's interesting that you say that, because now working for myself, I've worked in with organizations who have hire former Black educators. And you can see that they have not heal from their trauma. Oh, yes, they show up in these ways that are so detrimental to the success of their current position. Right, they're afraid to speak up, or they don't want to get in trouble. And they're always worried about someone being mad at them. And they just bringing, they're bleeding all over this new opportunity. Right? And so that what you're saying is so real. And I would tell folks like if you know, you've experienced fatigue, racial battle fatigue from the place that you're working in, or the last place you work, get some support. Get some therapy, because you just being in a new place. It's not a new year, new meek, new me is the same you at a new place. Right? Right. Whether that's a black leader, or brown leader or whatever, you're gonna still have some ways that you show up that you may not even recognize right away, this is going to negatively impact your new job opportunity. So get the support that you need, right.
Yeah, it's so much like and I was while I was in Australia, I was talking to one of my my new friends and colleagues about this, because she was telling me that she had a new job opportunity to leave her like very bad circumstance. And I remember sitting with her and I was like, Don't let the current trauma you're carrying, like, follow you into a new experience of opportunity. Exactly. And just like, I just like just sit with that like, you already are talking yourself. Out of being a potential for this new opportunity because of what people in your current position that you don't even like, are telling you about who you are as a person, right? So it's like, how do you, I was like go to therapy, figure it out, like, but work through it so that you don't end up being the reason your next opportunity doesn't work. Like you're going to self sabotage yourself. Yeah. And in like setting a situation where people will treat you the same way again.
And then you'll be blaming them again, and not seeing that it was you. Yeah, right. Because these folks with this new opportunity, do not know that people from your last job, right? So yeah, you're you're exactly right, you're dead on with that. That's really important, too, for people to think about. What's interesting, too, is sometimes we let the people in our space prevent us from even applying for different places, let alone taking on the job and doing the job well, just just even thinking about applying or updating our LinkedIn or whatever. Because we have all these people in our head, who've told us that we're not worthy, our work is not good enough. We won't work fast enough efficient enough, whatever, white supremacy culture type things that they've said. And so we believe that,
right? Yeah, or like, right, in my experience, like my adviser telling me that, like, I would be lucky to get a job. And so it's like, I applied to so many jobs. And I was like, I had so many interviews, like I feel like by my like, 18th interview, I was like, What am I doing? Like, I don't want to live in the south. I don't want to live in Tennessee, like, right, like, I know, I don't want to be in these spaces. But like, I let someone else convince me that I had to apply everywhere, because I would be so lucky. Right? And so I think even that, like the the racism wrapped into this conversation of blackness of like, you would be like it would be your honor. to like have this opportunity.
Yes, exactly. Rather than being like, so grateful. Be grateful for anything. Yeah,
versus like a, like, the honor is actually yours. Like, it's not the honor is yours. It's not mine, I don't need to apply to like, all of these places that I know, I would not be happy and and I don't want to work in. Because you mate, you've tried to convince me that like, I'm only worth the last opportunity people offer. You know, it's
interesting that you say that, because hey, 12, I can ask me for higher ed, but K 12 has his own breed of that, where I've run into teachers who will say like, I just teach third grade, no one's gonna want a third grade teacher to work with them outside of teaching. Right. And so there's, that is huge. I talked to women all the time, mostly women, black women, brown women, who just cannot imagine that an organization would want to work with them, because, and I'm quoting here, all they taught was blank. Right. And so the system not even just, obviously, its people. But the system as a whole communicates to educators, you need to be in a silo, you're going to teach this grade, maybe you'll move up to Dean or assistant principal, and then maybe you'll be principal if you if you get your teaching or your principal licensure. And this is what you're going to be shooting for. And you can't leave here because your bachelor's degree is in education, and no one's gonna hire you. Right look, he's been here he tried to leave or she tried to leave and it's just like that constant. And so I always tell folks like if you if you're in a space where you want to leave but you don't know what to do, especially in case well you need to think consider going with the kids are right boys and girls club and why Hank RCB Girls Inc like all these other organizations, Big Brother Big Sister that support and value educators, right? Or do something completely different go into real estate. But the point is, you are worthy.
Yeah, it just it makes me think so much of like, like the stories of others, like your story is not my story. Hear you Yeah, but you also don't even have a clear understanding like, just because other people said they tried to leave doesn't actually mean the same thing. You might define it as, right and so like you really have to like work that out as well. And I think like as you're talking two things came up for me is one, just the intersection of like of race but also gender of like, and I have this so much with especially my Psycho farm students have, like, you're bringing so much to the table as a grad student like you didn't you didn't just like pop out of the womb yesterday and like go to grad school like If you have 2530 How old however old you are experiences that got you to this room in this space we share together for like these two hours. And so it's it just blows my mind with there's like an undervaluing of what people can offer when I'm like, you weren't born yesterday, like there's a reason you're in this work. There's a reason you want to do this work. There's reason it brought you to this. And so maybe it's now the realization that this is it. This isn't where you want to end up. But maybe it never was where you were supposed to end up. Like maybe this was just one more pathway on to like your next thing or like maybe this is one more experience. Yeah, towards like your forever job, or like the thing that lights your soul on fire?
Yeah, people. It's interesting. Being raised by boomers that what you're talking about is so foreign to them. And they raised I'm gonna speak to me, right, Grandma, I'm a millennial. That's not a that's not a thing. That's not a conversation to say like, this is all the past. No, like, my dad worked for Ford Motor Company forever. The path was Ford Motor Company. Right. And so there's this idea of now, this is just like you said, this is a stop along the way, that conversation has never happened before. And it's so liberating. And at the same time, we have to be careful what we tell our dreams too. Because if you're telling that to people, like the crabs in the barrel, they're going to they're going to crap on your dreams. Right? So sometimes you have to do it very low key and figure things out by yourself. I always talk about the movie Shawshank Redemption, when he was like dropping the stones. The whole movie, we didn't know this. He was like dropping small rocks into the courtyard. For his escape. That's how we have to be sometimes you have to just slowly pick away until we figure out how to get through the hole and dig through in the trenches, to meet up with a with our best friends to treat right. And go clean the boat though, right? We can't share our dreams with everybody. People won't get it even if you tell them you're experiencing racism falsely, be like me to this, just just ignore it just show up to do your job. And it doesn't work like that for everybody.
Yeah, it's definitely something I'm learning as well. I've just like in right, like I very firm that my mother was a very different being as a whole. And that's where I get that, like, maybe this isn't it, or like, I could do anything I want to do. I don't have to definitely do this, right. But I also think especially just in the power of like, immunity, or like just the power of not just being discreet, but it's kind of like on social media, especially like, more and more black women are talking about how, like they're not posting anything about their lives. Like they'll be like, they'll be full married for a year. And then they'll be like, This is my boo. Yes, we were like, where did you start dating? Or like, Oh, we're married, though, right. And so I think that's such a powerful choice to make, to, to keep the fulfillment in yourself to not try to get any validation, because it's, it may not go the way you think it's gonna go. Even with your friends and family, like there may be like, Why do you think you're better than us kind of thing. And one of my favorite quotes ever is, like, don't tell your dreams to people who can't see your future. So it's like, don't tell something to somebody who like is not going to see it the way you see it. And I do think that's a lot of trial and error. But I think comes back to what you said, in my talking on that podcast of like, how do we feed our souls as much as our bodies? Like how do we be very careful in what we bring into our space? Or even like the energy like how do we keep the energy in a way that you're still thriving, especially if your work environment is not supporting your long, your long term aspirations?
Yeah, yeah. And that's, and that's the thing too. For some of us, they have to keep that as that aspirations and that energy for years. Right? It's not Yeah, some of us are not going to give to it. Someone's gonna take tomorrow off the day. And some of us have to keep that same momentum for years. And it takes work, right, especially when you have all these other folks in your spaces that are I'm there to protect you in some ways, but they give their opinion. Things are happening to school. Like all the things, it's not just like you're making decisions in a silo. Lots of dynamics are happening while you are experiencing racism related stress, racial battle fatigue. So yeah, that's the hard part is it could be for some of us, we see Instagram, tick tock, I quit my job. And now I still, you know, they're laying in a pile of packages, because they've opened this business business and overnight, they're instant success. And that's what everyone is everyone's story, which is why social media can be so dangerous for people who are trying to make moves like this. Because that's not reality for most people.
Yeah. And I also think, right, like, as you're saying that it's so it's not lost on me that most people have had a side hustle, or most people have had something working in the past. Because especially as someone in academia, it's like, if I want to leave my institution, the last thing I want to do is tell them that I'm leaving, right? Like, I interview on the down low, I have conversations on the side, like, you don't want to make your environment worse than it already is. And so it's like, what are you doing? And in most cases, like, what you see on social media is the end product of the years I've done to get that business going. It's not just like, it's a surprise to you. But it's not surprised to like the work I've been doing long term.
Yeah. And isn't sometimes it's not even just not telling a job. Sometimes it's not telling like, anyone, right spouse is included, whoever, because they just they can't see the dream, right? They can't imagine it. They're afraid for their own security, for their own health insurance for their own fill in the blank. Right. So and that's, that's difficult for some folks out has not been my experience. But I know some people who really take pause when I think about leaving education, and these toxic workspaces, because they're, there's some fear around their partner or their children, or their parents having something to say about it. Yeah.
Yeah, the the power of fear will submit to us. Yeah,
yeah, I remember when I was leaving, and I made the decision. And I was talking to my mentor, and I was sitting, she's in a cubicle in a different department. And she had a bunch of stuff, she she killed a little knickknacks, and in her cubicle, I will tell her like, I'm gonna leave, this is it for me, and I just applied, I actually been accepted to my dad program. And she said, You should stay because getting a doctorate is really hard, and you want something stable, while you get your doctorate. So you should stay. And she's telling me this, I look over in the corner, and it's a calendar on the wrong month, which is an indicator of her personality type. And it said, everything you've ever wanted is on the other side of fear. And she was talking and I saw that I'm like, That's it. Like, that's what I'm doing. I'm going forward. So again, people, my mentor, I know her finished my first day of teaching. This is my 12th year. I couldn't even tell her. You see, I'm saying so yeah.
Yeah, I also just think, right, like, how, like I was, I'm grateful enough to be from a long line of mentors from Dr. Joe White. But it's almost like in something he said in a presentation I'll never forget as he was like, as a mentor, like my mentees are supposed to outshine me, like, you're supposed to outgrow me here yet, right. And so I also think of that, like, this moment of realization for her to be like, oh, like, I imagined my life with you in it's, and now you're telling me that you're like moving on, right. And so I think it's also just a rude personal awakening, to be like, Oh, I'm still in this. I'm still here. When people outside of me are chasing their dreams and not letting fear stop them. And so I do think it's almost like a mirror to the people around us of like, what are you going to do? Like, why are you letting your dreams slip away? If you have those dreams?
And it's interesting that you say that because there's been since I've left teaching, there's been a lot of relationships that I had to sever, mourn the person and separate because it's just too hard. It's too hard for me to move forward. And I want to talk to you every seven seconds about the district that we left, I don't want to know or you don't want to see me successful, I guess all that is so real. Right? And that's a part of it too, that people have to contend with is loss. Right, the mourning and the loss of like everything you knew because even folks who have left jobs know this even if you had a work best friend, and that one person will He's, you're never going to be worked best friends like that, again, it just doesn't, because you don't see them at whatever the situation is don't see them every day, fill in the blank. And so people have to contend with that to have that loss of relationships. And that's really, really hard for some people to have to face that change that has to happen in order for you to move on to another part of your life.
Yeah, it's almost like we're having this underlying conversation of the power of grief. Like, I want, I wonder what it's like to be in these positions, and then like to grieve the idea that what you thought it was, isn't what it is, right? So it's like, yeah, what I thought this is, and what I wanted it to be is nothing close. And so now I'm grieving, this idea that I had about my current situation, that's not accurate. But then also like the decision to leave, like, there's a lot of grief over leaving your job leaving your circumstance, especially if it was such a huge part of your identity at one point. So you're like, I'm an educator, and this is what I was supposed to do. And now I'm like, being an educator is not what I imagined. And now this job is not what I want, and now I'm leaving, but then also the community, then you're like, also grieving that community. And so I can also see how not just the fear, but the grieving process keeps people stuck in this, like magical world of how things could be when things have not been that way for a very long time.
Yeah. When I was teaching, and I started experiencing racial battle fatigue from my administrator, and some of the educators in the space, I experienced grief, because the relationship that I thought we had was not there. Yeah. Right. And I always remember, now I have words for it. But I remember thinking like, Well, who else is lying to me? What's the thinking about me this way. And I think that's the kicking of the racial battle fatigue, then you become silent and angry. And, like, all these things, because you're, some of it is a loss of people who genuinely appreciated you. But some of his loss of perception of what you thought was a good relationship. And I think that's worse. Because you're like, This person was in my corner, they said, they did it out, whatever, they brought the coffee to work. And then you realize, like, No, they've been actually talking behind your back, or they actually are racist. Or they're actually, whatever the fill in the blank write a sexist. And that's really, really hard. And it's so sad. And it happens. People try to avoid it, I think. But if you are moving towards your definition of success in life, you will not be able to stop the grieving process. You will always be mourning a loss of a relationship is just what it has to be.
Yeah, and also, right, the, the, it's like, it's the grief, but also, it's the reevaluating of self. Like I also think right, like, personally, like my personal identity is on the line, because it's like, how did I allow this to happen? Right? There's just so much personal responsibility on a situation that at the end of the day, like if you had known what it actually was, you never would have done that right? Yes. And so and I think that's lost, like that belief like that, that intermediate of Oh, like if I had actually know what this was like, I
know right now that I never would have done this. Versus the like, how could I be so stupid to do this? Yeah. Yeah, and then rage to I think I remember feeling some of that and being so angry. Like, how can you be so like thinking to myself like you'd be so naive to think X y&z Right? And it's just so hard, right? It's just so hard. Like, try to recount the red flags and think back and, and you can just like you said earlier, you can be stuck in a spiral of coulda, shoulda, woulda, yeah. What if I should have known and then you don't end up going anywhere? You're kind of like, paralyzed like you say so. Yeah.
So as we're talking, I'm really thinking right, again, you said earlier, like this trauma bonding of like, we've had this experience together. We're all in like, and especially having to sever relationships, because the only thing you talk about is the trauma. And so now in your work, like how do you move educators or like in your consulting, how do you move out of just this constant like, let's stay in the trauma towards like, let's do some work toward like, a better opportunity, like how do we move out of this space of trauma bonding into? I don't know, hopes, dreams next steps.
Yeah. So just for your audience, so they understand like, what we're talking about this particular work we're talking about it is The Black educator wellness cohort that I co facilitate is where I do this work, specifically to support black educators, it is not everything that I do. But regulated black educators who go out into supporting youth then help regulate youth and I work mostly with youth serving organizations, right. And so I find, though, that our black educators are leaving the field of teaching, and they're going to be looking for work in youth focused spaces, and I can support them to become to move more movement towards healing. That's, that's bringing me joy. So in the black educator wellness cohort, we talk about healing from trauma, we talked about strategies, and we talked about talking to our families about it, and we just hold space. That's a big part of what we do is we listen, right to people's stories, and it's a yes. And what is your plan going forward? What is your plan going forward? I have a person a participant in our group, who every time we come together, she talks about, like I said this to them, and they said this, and I stood up and I said this. And I say, yeah, that's all great. But you have about 10 more years before you can retire, if not more, is your plan to constantly play Whack a Mole with every racist person that you come across. Because the reality is, while you're doing all that, and then you go home, and tell your husband, about what this woman said to you, and how you respond it, you're shaving off all those minutes, that you could be building a better relationship with your spouse. Right? So even if you're advocating for yourself in that space, they're still robbing you of your time with your family. And so that's part of the work that we do in the cohort is we talk about, like, and now what like you just said, like, how do we cope? How do we decide what we're going to do in our as our next steps? Like, what does that feel like? What does that look like? And you can see this other people in this space that are experiencing the same thing. And we're all trying to move towards, like self actualization? And how do we all support each other in doing that, and not just sitting here and telling stories over and over again? They're not taking us anywhere beyond our pain.
Yeah, it's, uh, I love that you said the network. Because it's like, I think we should copyright that because I talked something so with my students of any of especially my undergrads, and like, it's like, you get 30 minutes, like, say, 30 minutes, do you complain? To be really mad to tell me all the things that are terrible, all this stuff? Like, right, like, we have 30 minutes to fully process all the things you're most angry about? And then we're gonna pause, take a deep breath. And now what are you going to do about it? Like, yeah, now that you've had, right, because I think we don't process enough like people are trying to move on without processing. And I think just for me, keeps people stuck. So like, take that 30 minutes, cry, kick and scream, yell, curse the Lord, whatever you need to do. And then now that you know what, you know, what are you going to do now? Right, like, there has to be a decision. And I, I love that you're doing that with your educators, because I don't think people are making a decision enough. Like, they really Yeah, it's almost like they don't realize that no decision is the decision. Yeah.
Yeah, there's only so much of complaining that we're going to sit there in our group, and do and listen to, right? Because and when you ask that question like, and and now what I'm, it puts the onus back on the educator. Right, because if I let if I just let you blow off steam, and then we left the group that is still in the ball, the it's still in the court on the left side of the court of the other person, in your mind. But when I say Ah, so what are you gonna do about that? Because you said that three months ago, and last month and a month, right? Then it's like, now it's your responsibility to do something about your situation. Right. And that's the place I want people to be in like you are more than capable of making a decision and moving towards your decision. So that's where we are in our cohort work is, if you're going to stay in teaching, because we don't encourage people to leave education. That's not our goal of our wellness goal, are we but if you're going to stay in education, how are you going to set yourself up so that you are mentally healthy? If you are not going to stay? Then what are you going to do to get to move on to the next part of your life? But we're not going to sit here and just complain for three or four hours. eat lunch, teach us your gift car stipend, go home? That is a no that's not going to happen.
Yeah, yeah. If it's is incredibly humbling, because it's the reminder that if we're not careful, we will give our autonomy to someone else like Oh 100% Like if we're not careful, we'll give like the responsibility of our lives to someone else like well Let someone else make all the decisions. But then we'll sit in a cycle of forever blaming ourselves for why isn't going well?
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting you say that because the same person I was just talking about, she was talking about one some other situation. And I said, Why are you giving your power away? Right write like, why are you giving your power away? And you can see her face like this shift? And I don't think she had thought of it that way. Right? That she has, first of all, that she has power, she has choice, and that she's chosen to give that power. And that choice to someone else? Who sleeps well at night, who has a relationship with their partner who does all the day that sleeps well at night with a smile was like no issues, get her nails done, whatever she does, you're giving all your power away. And you're making that choice every day, consciously or unconsciously. Doesn't matter. I'm pointing it out to her now was conscious, right? So yeah, that's, that's huge.
Yeah, it's definitely like, especially my experiences last semester, and one of my classes of like, really sitting in that and being like, like, you're not going to try to steal my humanity. Like, you're not going to think for two seconds that you have control over how I move through the space. And especially right like I am, I guess I'm like middle millennial. But even telling my mentor, just telling him like, I will quit this job. Like, like, these students are not going to one think that they can determine what my humanity should look like. Because that's all on its own. Like, and then you're not going to then tell me that it's my job to educate you on anti blackness when you're actively trying to like, put me in this box. Mm hmm. But then you're not going to be upset when I'm like, we're not doing this. Yeah. Right. And I think that it's that like, the I also think of how battle racial fatigue, how racial battle fatigue shows up, when you're fighting back. And like you're pushing back and setting those boundaries that often, like, especially in my experience, the first few weeks after that were like, even crazier. Yeah. Then before the like boundary was put in place. But then after that, it was like just a tapering off of like, people seeing themselves and realizing that they're contributing to the racism that shows up in the space. Right. And so I also think of that, like, how, like, how do we encourage folks to like, stay the course?
How do we encourage the educator to stay the course? Yeah. So
like, when when you're like, This is a boundary? And then you're like, why? Like, why are we like, why is the ship going out? Like, I think I told my colleagues like, I'm on the Titanic. And it's like, how do you go down with the ship? And like knots? Not given? Because you're worried about the stress?
Yeah, I think part of it. And Janet stickman, who was the last guest on our podcast talks about this. You gotta be ready. People who are going down with the ship, or like, you're not going to you're not going to, in the words of my grandma even called me crazy. Folks who are doing that. They know they can quit quitting tomorrow. Yeah, that's the piece. Folks who know like, I don't know, where's my grandma, I don't need this job. Those folks who are operating that way, they will say and do, right? Because they know how to make a hustle. They know how they can plot it for what they're going to do what they're going to have to do. So that's the piece you have to think. And I can't speak for everyone. But for a lot of us, you have to come to this realization. Like, I need to get my coins together. So that I can just check me about a year. Right? And if you don't have that, if you don't have this, like, come hell or high water I'm leaving. And they're gonna just keep on keeping on because the system will always win, right? I'm a firm believer in critical race theory and the permanence of racism. So yeah, you have to, you have to make some decisions. And one of those is be willing to leave immediately. Like, when you don't have speech, and you stand up on a desk and kick everything off, walk out of there, right? Or silently, like I did one book at a time, one lap at a time until the last day of school and they just throw your ID in the garbage and peace out.
They're like, Oh, your room is so bare. You're like I know it's weird.
Yeah, strange. I'm just you know, air in my classroom out I'm just taking the curtains down to Washington. That's all don't worry about it.
Yeah. And I, and I do what like I very much honor how transparent you are and understanding that not everyone has the same hustle, that same decision. And I think that's why I'm so grateful for you. Because I'm that way, I'm like, I will burn myself down. And all of you with me, like, I'm like, we're gonna, we're going down together. And also, right, like this acknowledgment that not everyone can do that. Not everyone has the mindset or the availability, or whatever it may be.
Yeah. But we've got to have to have that mindset. If we're going to keep ourselves sane. And this this, Trump America, I mean, so that's a different podcast.
Okay, so I always ask two last questions. So the first one is, we're having this just amazing conversation about racial battle fatigue in the work you do in educators. And so this is the thoughtful counselor podcast. And so in this space, how do counselors, school counselors, therapist, mental health providers, support black educators through these
experiences? Well, the first thing is to believe them. Right? A lot of us, when we're telling you a story, we're looking into your eyes to see if your facial expressions, expressions change, to see if you believe what we're saying, right. And then if you have the capacity to support that person, with, I mean, if you know someone who's working in the field they're working in, and you can like help, like, introduce them. So they can kind of leave that particular job or whatever. I mean, that's a big piece of it, helping them maybe rehearse or roleplay, a converse hard conversations that they have to have with someone or someone's about what's happening in their, in their workplace, or at home, like I want to tell my spouse that I'm quitting. Can we roleplay that together? Because I know he's going to be very upset about this, or she's going to be very upset about that. Or they are. So I think that's a piece to have, like, all the ways that they're asking you to support them, if it makes sense to do so do so. But the first thing is, and I'm assuming if you're their their counselor that you understand race and racism and anti racism, and anti blackness, but if you do not, if somehow some magical way, you do not believe their lived experience, right? And then also, at the same time, don't go straight away to try to solve it. Right, just kind of be there and sit in the silence too. Because some people need that. And imagine if you're even if you are a therapist who's black and your, the person that you're supporting is black, sometimes they're not sure. False can be like unsure of like, this is my first time telling someone this I don't even know what to say. So they're telling it to you, like, understand that's huge for people to share those experiences. Right? And so that's, that's some ideas.
Yeah, that was amazing. And the one thing I've added is like the sitting in silence, but if you for some reason don't know about these things. I think it's a call to action to learn, like, your clients should not teach you about this stuff. You have to do your work around that to make sure that you're not further playing into or influencing the racial battle fatigue to begin with.
Yeah, I agree. 100%.
So my second question is, what is one thing that is important to you, for students to know, so either grad students or undergrad students or any students listening to this, what's important for for you for them to know? What's important
for grad students or students to know about ratios, mental fatigue, specifically,
whatever you think whatever comes to mind. Um,
I would like them to understand that racial battle fatigue is a real racism related stress is real. Learn about it. So that if you're supporting folks in your accounting spaces, and if they're unable to name it, that you can feel like this is called this, right? Because for some people, that's going to just be everything that they need is someone to put a name to their experience. So do some reading. Dr. Smith has a few YouTube videos, not a lot, but do some reading on racial battle fatigue, do some reading on racism related stress. And when you're having conversation with with people remember that it's not just them, that you're also speaking to their family. Right there. They're Romaine. They're the person that is supporting them or people who are supporting them. So when you're saying like, you should just do this or do that. Remember, it's just not one person shifting around. It's their lived experience. ancestor histories is their prize their their future selves that also are moving in this space and getting advice from you in this space. So, yeah,
yeah, the power of community. We're not. We're a whole community. We're not just individuals and space. And that's
exactly right. I love that.
Thank you. So that was just amazing. Um, you. So tell us, what are you doing next? Where can we look for you? What projects do you have going on? What is the best way for us to stay connected to you?
Yeah, so you feel free if you have more questions, or you want to reach out or have me talk to your folks about racial battle fatigue, and its impact on the workplace, not just teaching, but the workplace. You can reach out to me on my email address, Asia, as IA at Lyons, l EY ons, educational consulting.com. Also, I live on LinkedIn. Like literally, so you can reach out to me there. The work that I'm doing I'm working on right now is like I said before, my, my work is supporting youth serving organizations. Right. And so our work me and my team is curriculum and program development. It's coaching. And it's onboarding system support. And that coaching pieces what this is right, coaching folks where they bring their whole selves into the workspace, healthy wholesales. So yeah, that's what we do in our consulting firm. So if you'd like to contact us and talk about what that looks like, as far as us supporting your youth focused organization, we'd love to talk to you. And yeah, that's about it.
I mean, that's enough. You're doing the most, and I'm here for all of it. I'm not really here for the LinkedIn part. I'm terrible at that. No, everything else. I mean, oh, I like your stuff.
Thank you. And I forgot my podcast. Yes, yes. And then I said this earlier, but my podcast I co host with Kevin Adams. And our podcast is called the exit interview, a podcast for black educators. And we're everywhere. You can listen to music, and podcasts. So yeah, I love it. So thank you for supporting me on my LinkedIn.
I mean, it all comes at once, but it's there. The supporters
Yeah, gave me clumps of likes, and I'm like, I'm here for like, five likes in a row. I'm 90. I read something earlier today that something like 98% of people on LinkedIn don't actually post or comment they just read. And so now I'm like, okay, cool. Least I know what's out there.
Yeah, I mean, I'm one of those people who reads and does a post. So yeah, it's fine. Thank you for affirming my lack of social media. Oh. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much, Dr. ajla. And for being with us today. Again, this is the thoughtful counselor podcast. We're so grateful to have you. And we hope you keep the conversation going. And yeah, we'll see you in the next episode. Bye. Bye.
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