Right now I'm reading two different books but not about architecture, about business, developing marketing storytelling. There is a lot of thing that we need to learn as well, not only architecture. Hello,
and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I am your host, Ryan Willard. And today I had the superb pleasure of speaking with vanetta Laddie Mirova. So, this was great because I was recently in Paris, and I got the opportunity to actually visit the Netta in her offices in the beautiful on the small, so I think it was the eighth that we were in. And Veneto really is quite brilliant. A little about her backstory. Originally, she's from Bulgaria. And she arrived in France at the age of 19 as an au pair to learn French instantly, and I can totally understand where she's coming from here. She had an unconditional love for Paris and for France. And she was really kind of fell in love with the whole place. And it's, you know, she decided to stay there. Originally she was she wanted to be a journalist. But her curiosity and ambition led her down different paths. And against all odds. Two years later, she was accepted to study architecture in Paris. So architecture, became her passion, and provided her means to open the doors of creativity. For Veneta architecture represents the synthesis of all artistic professions, multidisciplinary approaches to guide forms and drawing from the sciences to influence design methods. And as an architect, she's constantly seeking innovation in every sense of the word. Her goal is to design and build while highlighting the quality, scalability and ingenuity of each project. She loves working on projects at all various scales across all types of programs. Her life journey has been about building from nothing and has turned her into a tenacious fighter who pursues what excites her love and conviction drive her to push her limits, and achieve anything she sets her mind to. Now she proudly leads to architectural studios in France for ultimate ambition to open up agencies in every major city in France and eventually expand internationally. Our vision extends beyond the architecture alone, she aims to close the chain of production through collaborations with engineer technical experts and economic firms. So this was so fascinating. Veneto really is a superb entrepreneur, and businesswoman. She understands at a very deep level her clients and what their problems are, what their pains are and how to serve them. She knows how to network, she knows how to market she knows how to negotiate. And in this conversation, you'll hear her discussing some of the strategies that she's employed to win work, how her sheer confidence and ability to, you know, to talk and to influence people allowed them to win projects when they didn't always have the portfolio for it. This is an often an obstacle for many practices. But again, she's also learned how to structure her fees in an innovative way that actually reflects some of the financial cycles of her clients, she's been able to take more risks with the way that she winds work and the way that she structures her feet, her fees, which has helped secure relationships have developers. And she's only been able to do that because she's been running her business very well. From the outset. We talk about how creative she's been in terms of her networking, and building of relationships, and how she has been at the center of creating thought leadership and communities and tribes within the property industry within a very competitive marketplace in Paris. And we talked about how her business has been streamlined and made it incredibly efficient to ensure that they're able to deliver projects whilst maintaining a profit. So this is really, really fascinating. Again, a real privilege. I love it when I get to speak with entrepreneurial Architects like this. So sit back, and enjoy Veneta Vladi Mirova This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how we might be able to help you please follow the link in the information for Netta. Well, welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
I'm fine. Thank you. Thank you for having me. My
absolute pleasure. So here we are in your studios, your beautiful studios in Paris, and I've been a big fan of yours. Somebody introduced me to you via Instagram, one of my clients actually. And they said hey, you need to check out this lady. She's literally she's like you but in France And I was really interested in the kind of content that you were making and you know, the kind of advocacy that you were having around the business side of architecture. And then on a little bit more inquiry, discover that you've got your own business that you've been in Paris for quite a long period of time. You're originally from Bulgaria, Bulgaria, Regina from Bulgaria. So quite an interesting journey in your own career. So perhaps why don't we start there? What was it that brought you to Paris?
Oh, it was, surprisingly, I was supposed to be here for only six months. And I just had an opportunity to look after a kid for six months and learn French visit Paris. It was like, just an adventure for like, it was a bit of time. And here I am 14 years later, among
16. Amazing. So you studied architecture in Paris? Yes. And pretty much straight out out of university. You set up your own business? Yes,
sure. So I started architecture here in Paris, and I did all of my courses at one time, I never stopped. I didn't take a break. And then seven years later, we founded the company,
very registered in France. Yes. As an architect, yes. Registered. Yeah. So why did you not decide to go and work for anybody else did you have did it was it that you had projects straight out of university. And what was that always the vision just set up was
kind of always division, I never saw myself as an NP somewhere. And although it passed to my mind, because it was like security, if you want to, like, have money directly, and like have because in Paris, to have an apartment to live well, and everything is you need money, you need a lot of money. And as a student, it was really difficult time for that, like, very small apartment, a lot of money economy on everything going out a lot. So it was kind of you tell yourself, maybe some security, it's going to be fine for some period, and then I will start a company or then I will do something. But between everything and every dose, I taught myself, why not start during the year of school, try to work something, try to have some experience, try to have some client, what is the client? What is the project, because school is one thing, but really reality something else? So we and as I say, We is like the other founder of the company. So we were to go together. So we were doing all of our projects together. And we started thinking about making the company building some business and working together. So during school, we were the same we started during school, looking for some small projects, design projects, not architectural ones, because we couldn't, but some designing some furniture, interior design, arranging spaces, 3d, everything that we could, actually so that we can start from somewhere.
Right. So you were even whilst you were still studying you were actually going off and finding clients and doing little bits of work here and there. And this was your sort of the co founder of the business, which is your husband? Yes. Yes.
It's a family business.
No, got it. Got it. Amazing. So so that has its own complications as well. Working with your husband. Yeah. And how do you manage to balance that you know, when to do you know when to turn off the business conversations? Or is his work always being spoken about? Right?
I don't think there is a balance point, anywhere. It's just making the right decisions about the priorities the moment. So sometimes it's like 100% work, sometimes it's more personal and family time. So you need to feel when you have to be where you are. And I think somewhere the way that we are a couple makes us stronger in the decisions so we do understand each other. I think that being an architect being a founder of a company being ahead of Some business, it's very difficult to understand if you are with somebody who is he doesn't have the same life. So it's kind of a positive thing, I think, yeah, difficult, we
both both understand the kind of commitment that it takes to run around the business. So you were you were doing projects whilst you were still at university, and then soon as University finished, then you kind of just went full time into the business. Yeah.
So I've never worked for anybody. Actually, my last. I was I was supposed to do some training. Time for architects and my last one actually didn't went all the way through because the company fell apart. So it was very difficult. Even this one.
So what kinds of clients did you have in the early days? So you were saying, whilst at university, you were doing all sorts of design, project, anything you could get your hands on? What was the shift? Now
let's was the for work we did a lot for for anybody, like a table, or just living room or some newborn baby room or something. So it was, it was really small projects. Most of the time, we didn't even get paid. That's how we learned that to be more serious about it. Because there's some people when they have the job done, they just disappear, right? Even if they if they're very glad with what they get. So we learned some difficult times and we learn how to do it even now, I'm used to still learning. But we have only one big professional clients. And in terms of money and time, he occupied like 80% of our incomes and time. And that is what permitted us to look forward and then the rich are okay, now we can open the film now we can register and we can continue and looking for more clients like this. So today, I'm not really working with like, people on their own for their apartments. This was like, for the beginning, it was okay. But yeah, it's
it's hard to it's very hard. Yeah. So So you had a you had one kind of commercial client who was a contractor. Yeah. And then you were like, actually, this is a lot easier to get work from the same client as it is with the lots of residential contracts. So what is what is your client spread look like today? Today,
we are working only with professionals, like for residential building, a lot of business building. Now we are developing to do some very different thing that we are used to in industrial world, and buildings. And it's it's like every time you start again, from nothing, and architecture is so different in depends on what you're doing. So now you're learning so much stuff. And it's one of the greatest thing about the profession. So only professional, commercial firms we're working with, and I'm glad.
And how did you start to find those sorts of clients? What was the kind of strategies that you
did? That was difficult actually, when we open the firm the same year, I got pregnant, also. So we did everything at the same time. And I remember myself working the last day before giving birth, I was still working. Yes. On the project. And I didn't even notice that I was going to say we must go to the hospital. So
let me get the drawings out.
Yeah, it's kind of funny, but then now I am laughing. But at the time I was in that laughing. Yeah. Well, it took us a lot of time to discover what's the strategy to just keep what we don't want to and how to get the orders that we would like to have, which is totally different from now as well. So everything changes throughout the years and experiences. And actually, at the time, like seven years ago, I didn't really realize what what was the strategy, the marketing, how to build. Like the strategy Good strategy, how to build a business that is working on and, and growing and developing, it was kind of spontaneous, really naive, and probably some kind of lucky that we even got here today. Because even I know if it's friends, or it's the time that we were to where it's nobody spoke to us that business is business that it's okay, you're an architect, but you also need to be a lot of other stuff if you want to work as an architect for you for your own name. So we learned these things like, on the difficult way, we tried, and we failed, and we tried and we failed. And then we saw that some things are working, and other things are working even better. And today, we're doing better than before, but we still learning a lot of stuff about it. So we, we did a lot of like a poker face, we faked it until we made that how actually we contact a lot of people that were out of our range, completely. We, we didn't have no experience in construction at all, because we didn't even work for anybody else. So we learned everything. On the way in we were bluffing a lot like saying, yes, of course I can do it, I, I know how to do it. And then we spend like hours and days and months studying how we can do it clearly when we get the job. So still kind of work. We kind of naive kind of foolish, but it worked at the time. And I'm glad today, it's kind of the same thing, actually, but more structured.
I think that's interesting. I mean, you know, so many, like whatever level you're at a business, there's always the next kind of sector or the new type of client and you know that you can do it. It's just a question of having the other person believe that you can, you can do it. And also, you've got to make sure that you get your fees, right, because the client is now kind of, they don't realize, but they're paying you to learn on the project. So you've got to make sure that you know that learning doesn't get in the way of of anything. What sorts of Did you have any kind of resistance from clients? How did you convince them if they if you didn't have because this is one thing that so many architects will say like, oh, we haven't got experience in this, this client wants to see a portfolio of 16 different buildings. You know, it's impossible. It's
impossible.
But how did you how did you? Yeah, difficult because of agreements that you come up with all?
Yeah, actually, what was as well difficult that I had only 28 years old 27. So when you're that young, and you don't have the portfolio that's working, like it's impossible, if we were aware that it's not going to happen for us if we don't make it happen. Yeah, so what we did did here in Paris, in France, you you can work with investors that are working on residential buildings, and they need a lot of studies before buying the ground. And these studies are very hypothetical and not paid, in general. So there is a lot of free work out there. So we said ourselves, we need to start like that, being ready to do some free work. And then we'll see. So we were prepared to work a lot and not get a lot of money. And that's how we started with proposed our services like analyzing and studying some sites, so that we can see if the investors could build the buildings that they wanted to, and the places that they wanted to. And some projects were interested. So we decided to develop them as if they were real projects. So that's how we build our portfolio. Right? We were like, I can say probably in the EU, we did like four or five 6000s of different files, different studies, and there was no one that ended up happening. So we just picked some And we worked on them as they were really real projects, we did some 3d views. We did all of the plans, we've really developed and learned a lot about architecture doing this. Because as we were our own clients, actually, they were not not a demand, there was not a contract. And so we did every rule, every criticism came from us as well. So it was very interesting. And that's how we started to build our portfolio with like,
so. So actually, you were doing you were doing little bits of investigative work for real developer investors. And then there were projects that you were finding off your own initiative. Yeah. And then doing the speculative design work? Were you taking any of these did any of these projects become like, like a deal for another investor or science for you know,
now, because we couldn't propose them to another one. It's like confidential. So later, we understood that we actually could, and just only if the first investor gave us the agreement to do it. So that's how we started as well. Finding some work interesting for other investors that because every investor is looking for something different, and has a different budget, so we learn a bit how to manage some sites. And if it's not working for one, it's probably working for another one. So we did some work we, we did, like an example project, and then we offer to another one. So that's how we started to be interesting. For investors. They said, Oh, they're doing something different. They propose this work. And that's how they said, Okay, I like what you're doing. So I will give you some more interesting sites that I know that they will probably working. And that's how we started to be in a team with investors, not just the small architects that are there, the stuff
is very interesting. Okay. So actually, because you were being proactive, finding sites, showing them here's what's possible. They were like, like, yeah, yeah, very,
very interesting how we started, that's how we made like, really strong bond with some investors. And when the files and when the sites showed some good results, and then we started working like this, but it was a long time, what
what kind of investors were you working with? And how did you find them in the first place?
Mostly on LinkedIn, like, we are doing some research, we're aiming the regions that we would like to work on. And then we introduce ourselves, we show what we have done, because now we have real portfolio with real projects inside. And that's how it's working. But mostly, I do a lot of events, like several per week, and my clients are there. So they introduced me to their friends that have their own companies. And that's how it's working. Mostly because the, the, they're confident that I will do the job. So introducing me, it's like, I already won a lot of things. For really, I had to introduce myself or had to show mostly, most of the time now I don't even have to show my portfolio. So that's
amazing, man. The irony of it. Now you've now you've got the work, you don't have to show it. So what what kind of events do you do you host them yourself? Or these are, these are just events that the clients putting on, I
am also hosting them, some of them here. And there, the agency and the firm. I do like three, four big events per year, where I invite my clients also people that I like, because of their passion in work similar to ours, like in finance, like in consulting agencies. So that's how I connect people. I like that people connect each other and offer them different kinds of businesses. I think that's really positive for them and for me as well. And also, right now I'm studying private club for for everybody that is interested in real estate, not only architecture, but in general real estate. So we need starting in October. And I think that that's a good thing because people are going to meet each other. And I particularly will choose only people that are passionate about whatever they're doing. I love that when, when people love what they do, it's different when you work with somebody like that. And it's not only for working, but just to have nice drink nice food, talk to each other, so that we're humans also. That's great. Not only worry about, okay, when we are working, what's the money? What's the budget? I think that's a bit overwhelming, because otherwise, it's old time. Yeah. And too much stressful.
Yeah, no, exactly. And it's the ability to build the relationship.
Firstly,
have you ever build the trust, right? So this is really interesting. So you're actually hosting your own events? You're creating a kind of community, if you like, of real estate, professionals, and investors? Are there? Is there a sort of specific kind of person that you're looking for, like, say, from the developer or the investor side, Evo, in terms of sector? Or do you have now like a specialist, niche or person that you'd like to work with? Well,
I prefer to, to accept the people that could make decisions in the firm, that they're most likely to be some active actors. The market of real estate, and not only real estate, because I have some political people in politic, in banks in acting, it's very versatile, open to everyone. I really just prefer the human before his profession. That's how I see. And the the contact the feeling when you just can share something. And just keep it also quiet, not a space, that's everyone needs to be here show up and say, I have a film like that I have this money i Have you travelled there, I can do that. It's not about that. It's just about some nice time. Yeah. So
you're kind of filtering out the sorts of people that you want to be in the in the space with you? And do you find that you you meet most Best Buy the best quality people through others? Or do you still actively go on to LinkedIn, and I
still search new people because I believe in new contacts in new. As I said, we're kind of looking for new spheres of work, new projects. So every time that we put that challenge to us, say, Okay, we want to make more projects like this or that commercial, industrial, sports buildings, we're, I have to look for some new partners or investors so that I can meet them and do over everything was to work with them. And every time for each sector is like you start over again. So that's, I am, yes. And do
you still just remain as an architect? Or have you been involved in kind of being the developer yourself, or, you know, getting involved in the sale or the profits from the sale of a property that you've worked on?
It? That's, that's the plan. Actually, I think that being my own clients, it's going to be my next level dream. And I would really love to invest myself and do projects and see every part of the project. As an architect, I believe that I, I, my next step is to to build a team that closes the circle of conceiving and production and managing a project. And working on that actually, we are starting two more businesses. Related to that one is only about monitoring, construction sites. And the other one is for the financial, economic and estimation, on projects. I need to think about creating something engineer as well, consultancy agency, but throughout the time, I really want to build a team that is working together and responding on demand. Also, on a team with the client, I really believe that it is something too far to figure out all together. And the project is much better when it's worked as a team, otherwise, like each consultant is working for himself. Yeah. And the best part of it is, if I can be also my own client is going to be brilliant. That
will be very interesting. So you've actually started to develop a cost estimation team? Yes, as a kind of additional service. And you'll bring in quantity surveyors and whoever else is involved in that. And then another another team that was doing what did you say? And when you're doing monitoring the site? Yeah. So to kind of actually who were in place and doing this, and it's very, very impressive, right, very interesting. Business model, in terms of becoming your own clients, what kind of needs to happen to be able to do that? What are some of the challenges with positioning yourself to, you know, deal with the developers are doing because I've known so many architects want to go down this route? And it's not, it's not
easy. Yeah, actually, by the low, I'm not allowed to do that with my architectural firm. So I need to build another company. And I cannot be, I cannot have the majority of the parts on the other company. That's why also being a couple helps this strategy of business developing. Because here, for this form of architecture, I'm the architect and only architect that's presenting the firm, so that my, my partner can do the investment part, right. So we really separated the, the, the rules, I come the architect, and he will be the investor. Oh, perfect. We will manage everything as we manage together. So got it.
So he'll, so he'll lead like the investment firm itself, the development firm, and then we'll be almost employing the architecture, exactly. To do this to do the services, keep it as a kind of thing like that, you get to enjoy the benefits
will participate on every film, but I cannot be in the majority, right? Because of the loss of architecture. Right,
right? And do you ever do when kind of moving into that kind of business structure? Do you worry about then becoming a competitor to some of your other clients?
Although I think there is a place for everyone, actually, as an architect, and also between architects, I don't see myself as the only architect that needs to do every project, I do believe that everyone has its own place. And there will be not in conflict with my clients. Because maybe we can also work together, I see more as an opportunity to work with my clients and invest together. It's a crisis time right now, this year is difficult. Last year was difficult, but there were a lot of project going on this year for friends, it's very, very difficult for new construction. So everybody's looking for solution to to continue building and constructing new projects. That's why also some sometimes I propose to to be a part of the investment team as well as an architect to invest my work. So there is no need to pay my my work before being sure that project is going on. So I take some responsibilities and risk on my side. But then I'm well paid, if the project is working, but everything that I invested work, I invested as it was money right in then I just
take the profits, can you give an example of how you do some of that? Well,
it it should be done legally. So I do employ some lawyers and financial consultants, I don't know everything about it, even though if I study a lot, but So, we are making a new company and we associate the architectural firm to their film. And then this new film is investing and in the in the papers in the status. You you put the So you will participate with your work, and you estimate the work at the value of the value of the work. And so it was like, it was
amazing. It was really cool, very, very calm. And this is something that I talk a lot about with, with clients, and with architects, you know, is, you know, if you start having your services and evaluation around your services, you don't have to get paid money for it. You can you can package it up, like what you're describing, and actually have it as an investment into the end part of the project, which will pay off now, you know, you'll get a lot more value from whether you just do it. There's, there's just risk involved. And you got to cashflow it. Exactly. So how do you how do you balance those two? How do you how do you mitigate your risk? And how do you ensure that you've got the money coming in to be able to, I need to do
different clients, different projects and balance in between big ones and small ones, because the small ones are like working and developing quickly, more quickly. And then the invoices are coming more frequently. So mixing between big and small projects, developing a lot of design projects, as well for the interiors, because I don't need an authorization authorizations. And everything's with going really quick. So that's how an also, I learned that if I want to develop like this, I cannot rely only on architecture to live my life as I want to. So that's why I am looking for some extra work in do different stuff, investing in another businesses looking for my money elsewhere. Then my film architecture of your eight, I think I feel that the moment is to invest my time and developing it but not to get the money out of it. Yes,
got it. So it'd be this is very interesting, because then because you can start to see the the architecture firm actually being a gateway to doing all of these other sorts of things. And you've got these other kinds of bolt on businesses that can be developed. And then it positions you very nicely at the center of development projects. And at the beginning, your architectural services are a tool to actually invest with into other projects, which can then generate cash at the at the outset. But this is not like so many architects don't have the most of the word I don't want to say the right word. They don't have the guts to do it. Yeah, it's like it. It really, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of risk involved for the freeskier. In doing it, it's kind of very scary. How do you in your your husband kind of like?
Yeah, it's been years that we live that way, even starting this business was a lot of risk. Having one baby at the beginning of the business was a lot of risk having a second one just later on. So it's over the time, it's risky, but it gives you so much freedom as well and so much gratitude, and you can just discover so much. So architecture is not just it is just a gate, but it's also learning as how to discover things, how to be curious how to how to manage to do stuff. So actually right now I'm I'm reading two different books, books, but not about architecture, about business, developing marketing, storytelling, there is a lot of thing that we need to learn as well, not only architecture. So our time is like a whole time. I think there is a lot of things that I had to give up on to be able to develop this. And a lot of personal time that I need to skip for now. But it is the moment maybe in one year, 10 years in 15 years, it's going to be different in different years from now.
You mentioned France has gone through a lot of challenges this year and construction. We've been seeing this in North America as well. The UK has had its own sort of different challenges. What have been the sort of specific things that have been difficult in France? Well,
first of all the prices that's why we started this new business about financial estimating of the construction process because of the prices went up And here the process of construction is really long. Because the to have permission from the state to build, it could take up to one year, sometimes more. So from the moment that you start the project and you estimated your budget, to the time that you start building, it could have been plus 50% for the prices, so the project you can not longer do it. Simple as that. So that's really, really big, difficult, I think, one of the big problems here for construction. So even now, like the past two years, being with the prices being so up and down, and very, not secure. These dismayed a lot of projects go down and never be finished. That's why a lot of architects has a problem with, with with the fear comes in all of the console consulting firms are in difficult times. But that was one of the reasons. And also, we had some elections, we here in France, we don't need a lot of things to have. And to just slow down the process is like naturally, people in administration, not going as fast as we would like to have in every well. Firstly, so it was a very, not that it was very slow before, but now it's really, really reasonable. So a lot of projects are not not seeing the day because of the wrong estimating widgets. And because everything is more expensive. This site, the ground, very expensive right now, first COVID time, everything went up. Even like apartments, real estate, it's like, difficult to do some investment in real estate like before. So the banks, there's no loans, right now, nobody, actually, there is no loans for the normal people. So they stopped buying apartments. So the investors that are constructing apartments that was gonna get stuck there, nobody's buying them. That's why so the chain is like going from the small person to the to the biggest waste,
it's so interesting as a kind of something that's been happening all around the globe in the supply chain issues that I've been meaning that architects are working on a project and they are giving their estimations and then it goes out to bed. And even in the space of the bidding for kind of cost is moving. And then the project's become completely unviable when the price comes back. And the clients like, we can't do this. And then they can't even afford to, they don't want to reinvest in the architecture fees to read to do a redesign to reduce the scope. And then the architect often gets blamed for it as well. Yeah, so that's the you know, they can find themselves at the the crux of that. Yeah. So it's yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty difficult. Yeah, difficult situations. In terms of, you know, you've been very vocal on social media, about your advocacy for the importance of business, in, in architecture, and just listening to you speak and describe your own kind of setup. It's leagues ahead of so many different different practices. What what do you see some of the constraints architects are facing by not being educated in in business?
That that's very difficult as I, I do, as you say, speak a lot about business in architecture and starting a new business. Because I know that when you finish school, you're not prepared. You're not prepared at all. I see people coming here working with us, that are still at school or just finished, that have no idea absolutely no idea. What's the real, the reality about architecture, about money in general, like, what you need to be paid while the project costs. What are the prices of the materials? Nothing. So I just want to pass through some information, just give it away and help some people that are starting the business or thinking about it. I have a lot of students that are writing to me, and they say, oh, that's an inspiration. Thank you very much for sharing. There was some more so I'm thinking about creating some something more specific about Passing through this information and how we do start a business here in France, I need to educate myself as well. I'm doing a lot of classes about finance, finance, to understand how to do it better. It's not just creating a pyramid, so and then another one, and another one are doing everything together. So I try to find the best way to do it and to manage like a system of different firms and that working out together, but social media, for me, it's a passion, I don't do it to, to get new clients, it's really about transmission and in giving away some some of my passion
in terms of the kind of financial education that needs to happen. What about marketing? And kind of selling? What's your, how important is that to you and build it has been building in your own practice? And how important do you think it is, is a skill that architects need to learn?
And we think it's very important, like, one of the most important thing, if there is the two most important thing it will be marketing and finance for me to start a business. And then architecture? Because architecture is the is. It's the fruit of what you're doing. But how will you manage to do something if the kitchen is not ready? Yeah. So I assumed that I had, I get lucky to start a business that went through a lot of difficult times. And now, I got the opportunity to learn how I was supposed to start. Because I didn't start it like I would today. And we're still making some errors in not doing everything correctly. But that's something that I regret that I didn't put enough in marketing 12 years. So I need to correct to correct that. And sure, that's very, very, very important. As you show yourself that storytelling, the branding, how do you want to others to see you actually do now I took it like I am the the one that people see, they trust me, and then the company comes next. But I think that the two must be in the same same position.
But this is interesting, that kind of the idea of the personal brand and the business's brand. And they're actually very important, both, like you say both of them hand hands are actually quite important because the business brand can end up being a little bit faceless or cold, takes people people are inherently cynical, of when a business is trying to be like a person. And then as a person, that's great, because it creates the human connection, and you can tell a little bit about your life and people can follow you. And so having them both together, really opens opens up in terms of if you were to advise a an architecture firm that was just starting, what kinds of marketing ideas would you say were were really valuable or kind of get your best investment with or from,
I think the best thing is to surround yourself with the best consultants. When you don't know how to do it. The best way is to find somebody who knows how to do it and then work with Yeah, I think that's the best thing. But otherwise, just educate yourself. There's a lot of things on the market today if you cannot afford to have a consultant then you can do it yourself some ways. It's better than nothing. Yeah. And but just to manage to know your value to know what's what's most important to you to know several points that you stand out throughout your work and your behavior. And then speaker speak about them. I think that that's the most important thing can work on the find the financial partners, how much it will cost me to work on a project how much I need to sell it, what I need to buy to find another client as marketing consultants agency or some publicity or I don't know that there is there is a lot of steps that need to be decided in the whole strategy before just Going through the nature. Yeah, no rules. Yeah. Brilliant.
So looking forward to the rest of 2023 and 2024. Do you see the challenges getting easier here in France? And what are you? What are your kind of ways in business of navigating around the future? And what are you looking forward to most,
I think that I hope that next year will is going to be better than this year. And I hope that things will go a little bit more fast in constructing, but actually, throughout the crisis, it helped us really think about what we want to do. And we like kind of re oriented our work several times. So we can find new projects, new ideas, new interest about for the firm for the future. So I think that what I've learned, and what I'm looking for now is how to build a multidisciplinary team, as I said, we starting, but it's only the beginning. So that we can propose like a service to our clients from A to that, like for the whole service from the beginning to the end of a project. And like, be more open to business like architecture, everybody thinks that architects are just a person with a drawing tool. And that's all. And it's not about it, it's not just about that we can be part of the strategy. And that's what I want to proclaim. When I speak to new clients, when I speak to my clients, the moment I want to be part of the strategy so that I can be the best advice that they could have in the strategy. If a site they think they can do residential, and they think that I can help them maybe I will see something else. Maybe throughout my experience, in my analysis, I can say, well, maybe we should try something more different like this kind of project or that. So it could work better. And I think that it's a pity that sometimes investors that don't have the whole picture, decide something and then when it's not working, they're just sweeping off and looking for something else. I think that we can extract something from each place. And it's it needs to be discussed.
Brilliant, love it vanetta. That's a perfect place for us to conclude the conversation, really, really inspiring to hear what you've created, and some of the innovations that you've kind of had with your own service offerings. And I think this will be a very inspiring podcast. So thank you very much. Thank
you. Thank you very much.
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