certainly the approach that we took during Prohibition doesn't was completely ineffective unless what you were trying to do was create organized crime in America.
In which we love that boy, that was an overnight success. I like to follow me down the rabbit history
Hello, and welcome to health history I'd like to fuck with Dawn Brodey. I'm Dawn Brodey and I am loving it here in the den. That's the deluxe edition network. To hear other great podcasts in the den, follow the link in the show notes or go to deluxe edition network.com. But this episode, the history of Alcoholics Anonymous AA, an organization started in the United States in the 1930s that has helped millions achieve and maintain sobriety. It is international, multilingual and has inspired dozens of other similar 12 Step programs. And it has its critics, and its defenders, of course, but it also has an amazing origin story, one that stars a series of unlikely heroes and for a club that by definition is full of drunks. It has always been remarkably scandal free. But listen if it scandal you're looking for look no further than my guest, la based comedian Jason Ryan. He is on screens big and small. And I adore him. And trust me you are about to to.
Let's get started. Maybe just Jason, you can be like Cher.
Madonna. Madonna. Yeah,
maybe Madonna shares.
But honestly, I think Jason's band that we should start.
I actually have made money as a share impersonator. It's been yours
Shut up. Let me see this. Oh.
Three to we'd hear from the people in the tone. It's not great. It's not great that you couldn't see listeners I did a little flip.
She actually did the lips. She did the lips. And the eyes closed a little bit.
You know, it's you get in there. It's like an accent shares like a dialect. You have to like, find the placement.
She's her own sovereign nation. For sure.
Snap out of it. I just saw your T Mobile commercial. It's so
crazy. How cool I had no idea I was gonna be in. Like most of it. Like I had no idea. You're the guy. You're the first face first first frame they use. They cut so many people out of that. Like I watched them record like well was with a bunch of different people that you end up seeing at the end, but like they use me twice. So I don't know I really flat.
So cool. And tell us tell us where else we may have seen you because I know that you have. You have a viral Instagram like Instagram posts and you're posting like cool content all the time. What else do you do? I do stand up. Well, that was where I first met you. That's how we first met. I first met Jason doing stand up in a brewery.
Bart bar brewery bars. Hollywood somewhere? Yeah. Well, and you stood out to me pretty quickly because not only were you headlining but you were there early. Like you were like eating a meal. And I was like, okay, and then then you jumped into a conversation. My friend Chris Cowan and I were having about like nepotism babies and you were like, you put in your two cents. And I was like, I like this guy.
And so I was immediately a fan. Now tell me where you're from originally, Los Angeles born
a unicorn and I'm like, all my friends are like, Los Angeles. This gives me a lot of comfort actually. Because my daughter of course I'm raising an Angelina. Yeah, I'm a Midwest girl. My husband's a Midwest guy. Like we don't. Sometimes we feel a little out of water. Being like, there are so many moles here and no winter. We really don't know how to help you with this growing up here. Yeah, so it's nice. I'd like to introduce her to people who have grown up here and be like, see, you'll still be a weirdo but like a totally normal weirdo. Well, I mean everyone she's going up and going to school with are also native Angelenos. So she'll be she'll be surrounded by you. Maybe you could teach her how to deal with like weather like we're having right now. Because I am dying. You don't like that it hit 40 and I don't You don't ever like go up to the mountains just to like get yourself season. No, no, no, I can't handle sand in my feet. Like, what am I going to do with like snow? Like, it just doesn't. It is unusually cold in LA right now. Not only is it is it below 50 It's snowing in parts of LA County like Pasadena and pouring with rain. Yeah, it's not good. But she can handle that. She's Yeah, we take her to Minnesota for Christmas. She'll, she'll have the parentheses of experience.
You really did your homework days and I said, What would you like me to research and you came back with choices? Girl, you were like, yes. I can't wait to be the show, which is always exciting for me. And you assigned me a Alcoholics Anonymous. Can you tell me why AAA was the subject you wanted me to dig in on? Yeah,
well, that was a pared down list that I signed. The other was was apparent that was more. But AAA has always fascinated me because there is so much lore around the group itself, because it is anonymous. And also full disclosure. Like I went through your treatment program. Almost a decade ago, I did about a year and I decided it wasn't for me, and I moved on to do other stuff with my recovery. But it just always fascinated me. Yeah, because it's like, does it work? Does it not work? I'm like, when I was in a, I absolutely hated it. Really. I hated that. I had a clinician that I really trusted who was like, you should check out some AAA meetings. And at the time, I was looking for community, a lot of my friends were still drinking and doing drugs. And so I was looking for like friends who like didn't do that. And I just I never liked it. I never got it. I never fit in. But you did it for a year. A year. Yeah, I got to like I said, I didn't even look back over 40. I was like, Don's gonna tell me, I'm gonna tell you, I'll figure it out to seven. And then I was like,
Yeah, okay. You know, I was really intrigued going into this too. And I was so glad that you assigned it to me because it's one of those organizations I have no personal experience with. I have never been through a and I've never been to a meeting. No one in my immediate family has that I know of. It's still anonymous, though. Maybe I'm from rural Wisconsin. So we have plenty of alcohol. I just went through AAA that I'm aware of, but it is an intriguing organization that permeates the culture of the United States. Certainly whether or not you have any direct access to it, people know what the program is, they know what generally if you say I have to go to a meeting, they and if there's any kind of like wink nod, everyone knows what a meeting is. And the 12 You know, we get it this is this has made its way to us. So let me tell you about I'm so excited this source, okay, that I have gone to for this hill thing of Alcoholics Anonymous. First of all, is their own big book. They call it the big book, it is called Alcoholics Anonymous. It is like the one and only like text for folks who are going through the program. It's been around since the beginning of the organization. It is free everywhere. I went to aaa.org and read a lot of the digital version, but I guess you can get a hardcopy for like $5 Yeah, and they have a lot of their own history, the history of the members, it's got everything you need there. There was also uhm, a nerd flag really got to come out here and fly. I watched twice a lecture by a guy named Tali Marek, he was speaking from the University of Virginia, I think. And it was a beautiful, it was right in the early COVID. So it's like people were still sort of getting used to like doing a lecture online. And then he had slides. And he was like one of those like, leather patch on the elbow wearing gray bearded historians. And I just like sat down with Tali and like, let him lecture history all over me. I'll have a link in the show notes if you want to get some Tali action. And then there was a couple of good documentaries, some that focus on AAA, as an organization, some that focused on specifically, I'm Bill Wilson, who is one of the founders of AAA. And collectively, it was just a really, really fun history to research. Yeah, I can't wait.
Are you ready to fuck I'm so excited.
Okay, looks like so here's my plan. What I'm going to do is I'm going to start with kind of the general history of human consumption of alcohol. Because it seems like there's this sort of division of opinion about what alcohol is, in general to human history. Some people like ooh, it is as ancient as drinking water to breathing air. We've been we've been consuming alcoholic beverages forever. And some folks were like, No, this is really modern. It's like, it's as bad for us as meth. It's just as like unnatural for us as any other drug. It's just that we've had it longer. And the fact is, both perspectives are kind of true in terms of human beings sort of general relationship with drinking alcohol, then I'm gonna go into the origin of AAA and how how human consumption of alcohol led us to an organization like Alcoholics Anonymous. Um, and then we're going to talk about sort of where they stand today and where we're at in 2023. You have to admire a in addition to whatever however you feel about, like people in recovery or how they've helped people in recovery, is that this or organization has been around for 88 years. Yeah, and has no scandal, like deep sources of corruption. And part of the reason why is because there isn't really a huge umbrella, moneymaking organization, every single group is completely autonomous. So even if one a group is like, Girl, they be fucking each other and trying to get money from each other, they're lobbying for a political candidate, it would just be that one group doesn't affect any other a group. It's not a sanctioned, it's just they do their own thing, which is I've suspect sort of good and bad. I mean, they've been they could have because you think there's no lobbying group, there's no one being lobbied by A. Do you know what I mean? There's no one saying, you know, if you want to get the vote of a members you need, it just doesn't there's no like you named manatee among AAA members, other than a desire to stop drinking.
Yeah. I imagine that would have been an issue at the beginning. Then when Bill W was still around. I'm sure the deification of Bill W was pretty quick, built,
built. First I want to read is from the big book itself, like in terms of like what is a as an organization, this is from the the introduction to the book 1939. It says, quote, We are not an organization in the conventional sense of the word, there are no fees or dues whatsoever. The only requirement for membership is an honest desire to stop drinking. We are not allied with any particular faith, sect, or denomination, nor do we oppose anyone, we simply wish to be helpful to those who are afflicted. Did you feel that sense that that was kind of what the organization was was about when you went into your group?
No. And that was my experience. It felt very, very Christian. Yeah. I remember hearing and again, this was very early in my recovery, but I do remember hearing things like you need to pick like a higher power. It could be a doorknob, which is super condescending in and of itself. I love the idea of that statement. I don't think it bore out and in reality I can
I'm really intrigued to hear about your personal experience with this as we go please feel free to stop me jump in to give me any like, Oh, when I was in there, like, this is my perspective of that. I love it. And I don't mind being interrupted. Yeah. Okay, perfect. It's fair to say human beings have been drinking forever. Because in terms of our understanding of human written language, as long as we have been writing things down, and we have been able to read the things that we have written down, we've been mentioning the boosts.
Right. Well, of course, yeah. I love talking about when I was doing drugs. I was like, I'm gonna write this. This is a great song. Exactly
right. It looks like if you really want to pinpoint it, it started about 7000 years ago. So give or take 5000 BC is our best guess at when we got fermentation, an intentional fermentation of anything. And this was happening in China, Egypt, India, Babylon. And it's wine and it's ales and the percentage of alcohol is pretty low. We're talking three to 5%. So maximum of light beer, yeah, you're kind of typical ale. And it was considered by all of these cultures, which were very different and in a lot of other ways to be a gift from God, and nothing but a blessing. It was safe to drink it made you feel pretty good. It was a better alternative than water depending on where you were living. And it was it was you were so lucky that you were able to ferment this and God must love us so much to give this to us. It was only considered bad if you did it to access which indicates to us that from the very beginning there were individuals who were doing it to excess right and that we were able to recognize that there are some folks it sometimes who do too much and then they're incapacitated. But right before you're incapacitated boy Don't fucking black. So we're we got a hump along with these three to 5% beverages in the various places in the worlds were making them until about the early Middle Ages about 1100 ad, when in various Arab cultures, they perfect distillation a little bit more and we can get a little bit more bang for the buck out of these wines. And these grains. Monks from the west interact with some of these Arab cultures and are like sama bench like religiously, we couldn't be more different but they are doing some fit. Something that we can definitely adopt is the way that they are fermenting their beverages and you know the stereotype of the drunk monk. I do well if you like Robin Hood, like there's always these sort of images of these early Middle Ages monks with like, they're usually very heavy set. They have like the bald patch on the top and they're almost always representative being sort of jolly and drunk, because one of the things they did was they were the ones who fermented.
And they had a taste their own supply, of course, and it's from God
God loves. And of course, they were like, and this is so great. This high alcohol content is so good for the medicinal purposes. If you're trying to cure a boring afternoon heck, yes. And then we really get the gut punch around 1400 ad misdeal Middle Ages, but kind of late Middle Ages. The Scottish and the Welsh and the Irish and some of our other Europeans are like, we really got this stuff distilled and they are making whiskey and gin and spirits hard hitting spirits. 1400 Of course, Columbus sailed the ocean blue 1492 Right. So a lot of these new for human beings anywhere on Earth, this new thing is is going global just like everything else is you know,
just dropping their single I got
it right. They were like wicked wicked whiskey. Yeah, and people love it. Because the Hello, you know, it's fantastic. And, and people are taking it on these long journeys on the ships. And again, it's considered great medicine and just great alternative to water. And yeah, some people get fuckin nuts, and can't appear to stop. But that is something that seems to be a vise that goes that the rolling with at the moment, it doesn't seem to be standing out as a particular issue to alcohol, it's still a particular issue to the person you're failing at something.
Yeah. And there's no social media to track to track their bullshit. So
people are not posting a lot of like sad selfies.
Could you imagine they had to, like take out a pen and paper like, this is me. Like,
you know what I imagined though, there probably was like letters home, like, you'd have to know if you get a letter three times a year. And one of them just like at the end of every sentence sort of slides down. Like a baby. I was on a horse when I wrote that. So
they drew their own penis. Here's the tic tac.
I believe it. I believe there's there's a museum out there somebody out there is curating ancient dick pics right now.
Oh, my God, I
cannot wait. I can't
I'll be the first one in line. Yeah, can we go together.
And I'm gonna kind of start focusing on America. We from the very beginning are getting these stiff fast drinks. And then even the colonists in those like early 1600s Like permanent colonies, and like Jamestown and stuff like that had pretty much a mandate to plant grain and plant grapes specifically for fermentation because there's they're coming from these crowded European cities, where water and purified water is so difficult to get that there were like when we get there are like, let's get ahead of this and make sure that we have all of our fermented beverages and they got there and they're like, totally, we got it. No, we have something like a really good water. Like the water is really clean. And then we're like, yeah, keep keep making the wine and the beer though we didn't say it because it's safer than water. It's been a fucking line that we've been serving throughout history like getting drunk, keep going. Then it's compounded by the center of the tavern in early American life. Right? The tavern was where you met socially, where you met for your entrepreneurial business transactions. It was where you conducted church meetings at times. I mean, you weren't wanted to run for public office, you would go to a tavern. So like, the actual place where you consume alcohol is already a nucleus of like American life, and George Washington Sloan.
Even with those tears, I especially learned a lot about time today.
My daughter's middle name is Washington. He had some flaws, but he was also the number one distiller 1799 He had a Scottish farmer running is Mount Vernon, who was like, George, I have an idea. When I got there. I think that you need to take part of your field like this bread grain is just fine. But may I recommend that you plant beer grain, because you're gonna be much better off whiskey grain and so he like turned over a bunch of his fields and was making 11,000 gallons of whiskey a year he was making more whiskey himself than like anyone else in the colonies combined.
That's insane for a while that's so much crazy.
And you know, like, I mean, keeps going in America. We after this, of course, among a lot of other things. We got westward expansion, then we have the Civil War, and now we've had 100 or so years of consumption of alcohol, not only unchecked, but growing and broadening and following us everywhere we go. And we're starting to recognize there is a very serious problem that's holding hands with alcohol that we just can't pretend we don't see. you anymore. And so for a long time, they were like, well, I Yeah, okay. There are people who can't drink, they are drunks. They are degenerates. They have no willpower. They are sinners. Who are they? They look at their hungry, sad family and keep drinking because they're bad. And so what do you do with people who are sinful and weak? And bad? They put them in asylums, and hospitals and jail, right? I mean, the way that I looked at it as if you were a degenerate drunk, that meant you are criminal, you go to jail, right? If you're an insane, drunk, right? This means you you're crazy to go to an asylum. And if you're a hopeless drunk, it means that you know, we have to take really good care of you. And really, the only difference between any of these is how much money you have.
I was about to ask. Rich did this the poor do exactly.
It? I mean, and one of the things that insane is such an interesting part of this conversation around alcohol and alcoholism. They they use the word crazy, and they use the word insane. And one of the things that they try to be clear about is that when we say drinking is insane. We don't mean the crazy shit you do when you're drunk. Oh, we don't mean you put a lampshade on your head and your take your pants off and run down the street. Like that's crazy drunk stuff to do. What we mean about the insanity of drinking is that you seem to think, right, the definition of insanity doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. The insanity of an alcoholic is you think you can drink and you won't do what you've done every other time. You think you can have one drink and stop? That's crazy. sounds so familiar. Yeah, yeah. So tell
myself just we're just gonna have to, we're gonna stop it sounds like sounds like our ancestors couldn't either. I mean,
it's so there really starts to become this recognition of it. Now we do. Actually, I found this crazy. I didn't know this. 1849 is when we first get the first individual to say this is a disease. Oh, interesting. This is not simply Are you stupid, sinful, or weak? It's a disease that affects the human body and is like a virus it hits some people harder than others. The individual coined the phrase alcoholic is Dr. Magnus Hus, he's Swedish kind of a stone cold Fox Not gonna lie. And it makes sense. He's the first one to like, oh, no, no, no, we don't have to like, stay, these people are banned. They just can't stop drinking, but then his cure his idea of like, okay, so what we need to do is no more booze, just take all the booze away. And this is is a logical thought. And it's what led us to prohibition in in America in the 1920s, it was the same idea of like, yes, we see the problem, we can separate it from the person's failings and recognize that it is simply really good, well intentioned, smart, strong people consume this stuff and lose themselves. So we'll just not let them have it anymore. What prohibition taught us in the United States is that that does a lot of things. Except stop a drunk from drunk. It just simply you you can't. And I was trying to get my head around. I'm not an alcoholic. But I do understand addiction. I can sort of get my you know what I'm trying to feel at the edges and empathy for this. I used to smoke cigarettes fucking off cigarettes.
When can we start again?
God, right when the comment when they're like, I loved smoking cigarettes. It made me feel cool, I loved everything about it, then you start to realize, Oh, my God, I don't feel great. Like, don't feel great. And it's so expensive. And all of the very logical things that are like you have to quit. Okay, so I quit smoking. Now, where I'm at right now with smoking is I haven't had a cigarette and I cannot remember. It's been years. I see other people smoking. And I'm usually kind of like, I don't want to go back to smoking again. And if you had a pack of cigarettes on this table, I would smoke the whole fucking box. If there was a pack of cigarettes in this house, I would smoke the entire box. Now you can just stop. Yeah, they have cigarettes at the start and final right around the corner. And I have no temptation. I was there today buying other things. I didn't have any temptation to buy the cigarettes and bring them into my house. But if they're right here, if they're sitting right here, or if you were smoking one, I'd be done. I'd be done. I'd have to have one. Oh, so you know I but I think that when they're talking about when they when they classify alcoholics, and the various phases of alcoholism,
you got it from what I understand where we are with with drug and alcohol addiction is that it's it more closely resembles obsessive compulsive disorder than it does like a disease disease. They do
say you can recognize addiction in brain waves and it doesn't necessarily matter. Yeah, what the what the element is what it is that you're addicted to. We have sort of similar synapses are firing and you can find that obsession. Yeah. Oh, All of that to say, though, that certainly the approach that we took during Prohibition doesn't was completely ineffective unless what you were trying to do was create organized crime in America. In which we love that boy, that was an overnight success. We got so many hotties, but statistically, when they looked at the quantity of people drinking and the quantity of people who had been dangerously drinking before and after Prohibition, there was no difference, it would have gone up in a lot of places. Yeah, because it was more intriguing for some. So yeah, there were there may have been some individuals that are like, Oh, my God, thank God, they made it illegal. Now, I'm going to be good because I don't have to go to bars anymore. But there were just as many people that were like, Why do they make it illegal? Is it because it's like, too great? Or, like, how, how great is it? They pass prohibition in 1919 1920, it goes into effect, it's repealed, because we realized what a fucking terrible idea was in 1933. But when you look at the condition of alcoholics, now, in 1933, and 1934, especially their adults and have been drinking throughout, they're in a somewhat more desperate position than they ever were before. Because it's like, now I was probably drinking before Prohibition, prohibition did nothing to help me, I didn't come out of this. And now they've literally admitted, well, taking it away from you doesn't work, you're still gonna go find it. So the understanding seemed to come with now you personally need to find a way to stop yourself from taking it. Yeah, you have to stop yourself from doing it. Because we can't stop you from the outside.
When it goes underground. That's just, I mean, we're seeing it now with like, crystal meth and opiates, and all that kind of stuff. You're like, if you if it's illegal, or you, it's illegal for you to have access to it. If you have a problem with it, how are you going to come out and go ahead and have this problem? And I need help for it. So I can I can imagine that only exploded during Prohibition?
Yeah. And now, I mean, Alcoholics Anonymous is anonymous, for a lot of reasons. And we'll talk about sort of why the anonymity is so key to the organization. But certainly, if you had a real problem drinking during Prohibition, everyone's gonna be like, well stop breaking the law breaking. But you know, this is illegal. So asking for help, had just been more difficult for them. So coming out of prohibition, we have a whole new situation for folks who identify themselves as alcoholics, even if they haven't quite received that term yet from our friend, Magnus. So what I'm going to talk about now is sort of AAES family tree. Okay, so we have all sorts of like seeds, spores in the water. Now, we recognized as a world and as a country, that alcohol is not going away. And we have a problem with it. So what are we going to do about this? The very first I like to call it sort of the grammar. This is a family tree. This is the grammar is called the Oxford group. And one of the things that you said about your experience with AAA was that it was a little too Christian. And there is even though AAA is so explicit about its higher power, we have no hierarchy, no allegiance to any particular faith or any particular religion. The fact is that baked into the DNA of AAA is a Christian basis. And it comes from this Oxford group, even though as a Christian basis goes especially in 1920, when this group was formed, they were nondenominational, which is about as radical as you could.
It was like 20s, like 19 years ago going viral? Exactly, exactly. So
1920, they start they call themselves, they coined the name in 1928. It's founded by this guy named Frank Buchanan. And generally speaking, the Oxford group is just a self help group. It is Christian based, but it's not like we're trying to bring you to God. We're just trying to make everybody stronger, better people. They said they wanted to overcome fear and selfishness. They wanted to help people make amends and get right with God. There were no dues, no fees, no hierarchy. And their main goal was just to like spread the word and make people better people. It was very philosophical, very kind of woowoo Yeah, for the time, right. So you got the Oxford group. That's grandma. This is your rich uncle. Okay. It's a guy named Roland hazard. The third.
I love a third. A third, a fourth. My favorite.
I do too. I mean, it's like, you know, his dad was junior. Yeah, what comes after three? Yeah. And Roland Hazzard I get it. You keep that name in them. Everybody gets that. That's a poor name for name. Well, enrollment hasn't gone on. Okay. Roland is handsome, rollin is rich. He comes from one of the finest families in Rhode Island. They got this huge textiles company. He went to Yale, his wife went to college 1880s Your wife goes to college. Come on, these guys are as rich and as well. connected as you can get, and he is a quote unquote hopeless drunk. I love him. So I love him so much. And what we know as we've already talked about, which is like, Are you a degenerate? Are you a crazy Are you whatever it depends on how much money you have. Roland, of course is one of those sad, hopeless drunks that needs help, right? Because he's so rich, so handsome. But we also know that the amount of money you have don't do it. Right. If this was simply a matter of like, rich people wouldn't be drunk if it was that easy. And we all know that that's not the deal. But he does have access to all these things. And one of the things that they do to get rollin hazard the third to fucking clean up, is he goes to Carl Jung in Switzerland. No, yes. And he dries out in Switzerland. Good come back to Rhode Island get drunk. He goes to fucking Switzerland to dry out with Carl Jung twice. And Carl Jung, if you don't know is, is a pretty like open minded dude. And he says to Roland hazard, the third buddy, this isn't going to work, I can dry you out. I cannot stop you from consuming alcohol. I'm going to tell you the only thing that will help you. Spiritual Awakening. And Carl Jung says, Look, I don't know, I'm not you know, he's hardly a faithful icon. But he did seem to understand that this issue of alcoholism had three sides. It was a physical addiction. It was a mental addiction and there was a spiritual element. And he said, the only people I've ever heard of in your condition that have kicked it had to have a spiritual awakening. Interesting. I can't really tell you anything other than that, other than Don't come back here because I can't give you anything more. So Rowan's like spiritual awakening kabhi. And he really God bless him. He wants to get clean. So he goes back to her and finds the Oxford group. They are, quote, spiritual girl and they are awake. So he goes to the Oxford group and Bahal has a spiritual awakening and get sober. One of the things because Oxford group is evangelical to a certain extent and kind of a pyramid like spread the word, Roland then converts and helps bring to sobriety this guy named Abby Thatcher. The third before I got sadly, I think he's the only of his name to support epi factor, there is no role in Hazard blessum. So epi factor also achieves some level of sobriety. I don't think that he has maintained sobriety his whole life, but he does. He does really good. He has like a couple of relapses, when he does really, really well. And epi factor then finds another hopeless drunk named Bill Wilson. Bill Wilson is the daddy. He's the father of AAA. He is the star of this story. He's a really intriguing figure. And we are going to talk more about him when we get
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Hey, this is Sammy. I'm here with my hetero life mate yen. Hey, Sammy. Hey, there, Yan. How you doing? I'm doing pretty good. So we are part of the barrel aged chicks. And who else is part of us?
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I've listened to every episode except for I can't do the supreme court right now because I just it's too activating for me. I understand. So that's the only one I've skipped. But I've heard all of that. In fact, I've listened to the comedy one three times. Because Wayne Fetterman you on the show you were so cute. And just like the love you had with him in the like I just I loved listening to that one. Oh, that fills my heart. Thank
you so much.
I truly am a fan like I'm kicking out but I'm trying to play cool. I could talk I could talk positively about you all.
Well, I have no shortage of tapes. Start with my eyes and I will
evacuate town people are the best people
are the best. And also the worst sometimes listen, it's one of the things I love most about history and why I fuck it so much. And thank you. And it is because it's human stories. I mean, at the bottom line, the end of the day, human beings are amazing. They are amazingly awful. They're amazing, but it is an endlessly deep well, and to that end, we are going to start this second half of the fucking of Alcoholics Anonymous with a really, really cool dude. Man. I really loved meeting Bill Wilson. Bill Wilson is I mentioned sort of the family tree of AAA. And when we left off, I said that Bill Wilson was sort of the daddy. He's a great dad. I mean, as dads go, he's a pretty He's a drunk. Yeah, lots of drugs have turned out to be good dads. Bill Wilson, is a veteran of World War One. And he is married to this fantastic girl named Lois. They have a wonderful marriage. They don't have any kids, which some people would say perfect marriage.
No, be she doesn't mean No, I'm
kidding. But they, they're very happy. They get along great. They have, you know, everything's going great. Here's a successful stockbroker in New York, and a hopeless drunk. He started drinking when he was deployed in World War One. He found it was the way to feel confident it was the only way for him to be able to talk to people that he had just met, he was utterly transformed and became addicted really quickly and couldn't kick it. He's also really good in the New York Stock Exchange and he like moves his way up and is doing really well but is so quote unquote, hopelessly drunk, that anytime that it comes to like toasting to a good deal, buddy goes tits deep in and is like days long Bender and just humiliating. And I learned the difference between passing out and blacking out. Oh, do you know the difference between passing out and blacking out
passing out is when I would imagine is when your body stops functioning, like you just can't move anymore. And then blacking out is when your memory there's a cap on your memory. Yeah,
they call blacking out is literal amnesia, you're still functioning, talking, engaging, maybe driving, maybe fucking people maybe doing all sorts of things. And when you wake up the next day, you have literally no memory, they the medical professionals do align it with a form of amnesia. And in our buddy Bill Wilson is is in the passing out and blacking out phase, which is really scary. His wife is very supportive, but she has her limits, and he realizes he's about to lose it all that phase, right? When you tip over into death, you lose your home, you lose your wife, you lose your job, right. And he has at this point, checked himself into Townes Hospital in New York under the care of Dr. William Silkworth. And he's been there a couple of times, and doctors been very patient. Just like just like our buddy role in hazard. 30 He's like, Girl, I can dry you out. Yeah. But when you go back out there into the world, it's right there. And of course, it's now 1935. He's been doing this through prohibition. So we know there's no keeping it from you. And, and so he's like, hey, you know, Dr. Silkworth is like I don't but just remember and this is this is key. I mentioned that in 1849. Magnus has called it a disease for the first time it's called alcoholism. This message, this idea has sort of filtered down at this point to Dr. Silkworth, in New York, and he's like, it is a disease Buddy, don't beat yourself up too bad. And he explains to him that willpower is no more a cure for alcoholism than it is for tuberculosis. And he really comforts Bill Wilson in in sort of removing that idea that you're a piece of shit because you can't because you can't kick the habit, you know, and you really can't believe you're a piece of shit or you won't be able to kick the habit. Right. And again, I'm just like Carl Jung, he's like, You need to probably find some sort of spiritual awakening. And it is at this point, that he makes the acquaintance of epi Thatcher. You may remember right, I'm getting the look on your face. One Evie batter. What? The hazard rollin hazard. The third converted Evie factor, and Evie factors out there looking for a drunk to fix. And our buddy, Dr. Silkworth is picking them up. And Evie comes in and he's talking to Bill Wilson. And he says, You got to find God and Bill Wilson's like, buddy, no, he's really uncomfortable with the god stuff. He doesn't consider Himself faithful at all. And at this point, and he's like, I've been church enough. You know, good Lord was going to take this from me. He I've already done tried. Sure. And, and he goes out that night and gets drunk. He gets out of the hospital, Bill Wilson goes out gets wasted and then shows up wasted to EBI facture ah, At the Calvary Rescue Mission and is like alright, let me give it a try. I'm so fucking desperately drunk all the time. I can't help myself please. Right. And he converts to Jesus has this huge moment in a church with the Calvary mission goes back to his wife Lois and is sober for 24 hours back, goes through it again goes back to the hospital and says You told me a spiritual awakened I was a fucking idiot Debbie fact I found Jesus I saw the light and then a fucking here I am drunk again. And one of the things that he gets at this point in Townes hospital is the Bella Donna cure. And one of the things that is included in the Bella Donna is a hallucinogen. Now, I've not exactly been able to trace just how close this is to like psilocybin LSD, but it certainly solicits some similar sounding experiences, including hallucinations as
well as on a plant. Yeah, okay. Okay. I need to find so
our girl, right, so Bill Wilson, takes the Bella Donna, and is starting to have the mystical trip. Have you experienced LSD, psilocybin? And LSD but
I love I'm not sure I'm okay. Not anymore. Not anymore.
So Bill Wilson suddenly feels great ecstasy, this lightness. He feels this kind of divine connection, a flash of light. And he says if there's a God I'm in and he has his spiritual while awakening, okay, like, capital. He knows from this night forward, he never drinks again. Whoa. And epi factor comes in a blender afterwards. And he's kind of bill Wilson's Like, it wasn't Jesus Ha ha, like, I had my spiritual awakening, but it was out of church. So I don't even know if you're gonna want to talk to me. Because basically, I'm saying it's not your God. It's something else. And that'd be Thatcher's, like, Hey, man. And this is what I find. So cool. This is when I said this was like a really cool story. There's just some sort of lovely twists in the road that don't always go this way. Right? Abby Thatcher is like, yeah, man, God can be a lot of things. Right? For like coming from this like Christian evangelical organization. It's sort of a surprising reaction. And he's introduces Bill Wilson to a book written in 1902 by a guy named William James called the varieties of religious experiences. William James is considered the father of modern psychology. He is as secular as they get. But he says basically, anybody I've ever known or researched, who has had something that they described as a spiritual awakening, a divine epiphany, a come to Jesus, right? Whatever you want to call it. What they all share is three things coming from a place of calamity. Okay? admitting defeat, and appealing to a higher power for Help Help me I need something outside of me. Those three things are the only three like common elements and when someone sort of has that and then achieves the Spirit then they they are changed. Yeah, they have truly profound like understandings and different different perspectives. And it's enormously profound.
It sounds like the first three steps doesn't it though, right?
So Bill is sober as I said he has his higher power that's why it is built that's why when you said your experience was with a was a little too Christiany and the fact is there is the Christian evangelical structure is the basis of a and yet the founders most profound moment in the creation of the organization is by definition non Christian, but spiritual in a way so suit to the point of like each group being autonomous you can see how someone lean into it in different ways. So our alright so Bill is a convert now, and he is like, I'm going to go and spread this message of sobriety like I was a hopeless drunk 24 hours later, like I am pissing off my wife losing my business drinking as bad as all of you. Now I don't anymore let me help you. So he's going to hospitals asylums drunk tanks, and he's getting a little preachy with Bella Donna like, as you see, that's the thing like girl I read this and I was like, I honestly the Bella Donna, and they are right now in the world of addiction and recovery. Psychedelics have become a really important tool, ketamine psilocybin, in the history as I received it through all these various sources, virtually no one liens on the import of Bella Donna and psychedelics in this story, even though it was key for Bill Wilson, you know, there's a lot of reasons why one is of course, it was not available and not researched and demonized and all sorts of from that, but also it doesn't sound like Bill Wilson necessarily thought it was the drug but that feeling that there may be a way to come to that feeling he had that you can come to that feeling via various reasons and this one Hold on a cure had been given to lots of other people, lots of other drunks who didn't suddenly get sober. So it's obviously because it didn't do it, right. That's exactly right. So Bill is now sober, and he's going out. And he's not really converting anyone. He's not bringing people to sobriety. He's not getting them to, like, have the spiritual awakening and like, to booze away because it doesn't have enough peladon for everybody, which is part of the problem. But he himself is staying sober. So there's like good and bad, right? So sober. In fact, Lois is like baby and he's back with Lois and he's got his job back and his boss is like, God damn, Bill, we are so proud of you. We were really gonna fire you. And now you're like back and you're selling great. We need you to go on a business trip to Akron, Ohio. See what I mean? Yeah, I don't know what's worse, like business.
Akron, Ohio,
is gonna need to drink. I need to drink just thinking about going on a business trip back. Akron, Ohio, bring a vape. Exactly. Exactly. So poor bill. He knows how fun this is going to be. Right? And he goes, and he kind of kisses. This is always goodbye, like, see you later. And he's been down this road before. It's always been a trap for him. He's gone on business trips, and he's three days in the bucket. Like we always know that this is always bad.
Does he ever say why? Why particularly business trips? Is it boredom? Well, I
think that it's you're in this hotel room, once he starts, he can't stop. So it's one of those like, everyone's drinking, he has one. And now he's just in a hotel room with a bottle. So he just drinks until that bottle is gone and is sort of trapped in a web. You know what I mean?
I was like a former really heavy drug user. I didn't want to share my supply. So I don't understand people who are like, you have to, like, I'm gonna give you my boot like I don't Yeah,
I don't. Because the people who were sharing it with him weren't alcoholics. Oh, you know what I mean? They're just like, Hey, Bill, join us for a couple of drinks. And then Bill's like, okay, and then they go to bed. And he's still going. Yeah, I think that was what happened. And he's looking down the barrel of it again. And he's in his room. And here's the clinking of glasses. And he's back who doesn't want and he knows, I can't just he's like, I need to talk to another drunk. This is kind of what's worked right. The Oxford group, another drunk who gets it? I need to find a drunk around here somewhere. Right? And he gets on the phone. Oh, my God. And he like calls the local, you know, gets in touch with the guy who knows a guy from the Oxford group who knows the doctor who knows the guy. And they're like, Oh, you need to drunk. Call Henrietta. Henrietta, she knows all these drugs. And her name isn't Henrietta's? Seiberling. Oh my god, I love her. She's a sweet lady who just likes to help drunks out. And God knows what she was doing through prohibition. You're not I mean, she's just like, she sees the problem. There's really good people who just are making terrible choices, and maybe she can help them. And her favorite drunk is a guy named Dr. Bob Smith. Oh, I know Dr. Bob, Bob. And Dr. Bob. Here's Dr. Bob's been doing for the last 16 years. Of course, all. Dr. Bob wakes up in the morning, hungover with the horrible jitters. He gives himself a sedative to get the jitters down and to keep himself calm, and he tries like hell and usually manages to stay sober until noon. When his surgeries are done, then he drinks until he passes out. Then he wakes up in the morning, takes a sedative to get the jitters down, tries as hard as he can to stay sober till noon. And it's not going well for Dr. Bob. And he has he knows the stakes as well as anyone. He's a good dude. He's trying so hard. He feels so guilty. He's gone through all of these things. And a lot of the other alcoholics have described which is a couple of lists of Briar moments and then horribly, horribly down so Henry and is like, Hey, Bob, there's a drunk in town named Bill who'd like to talk to you. And Bob is like, I don't want to and then they're like, but maybe this is a good idea. So he's just 15 minutes. Oh, I'll give him 15 If there's none, I'm gonna go get drunk. He's already been drinking. Yeah. That afternoon. Because where are we? So Bill and Bob sit down. And six hours later? What was supposed to be 15 minutes. Six hours later they come out and they are bud and they get it. Dr. Bob hasn't had a drink he sobered up in fact, because the ladies Henrietta's done been bringing the coffee and the cigarettes haven't stopped and like can we just please give a nod to the coffee and the cigarettes in this world? Oh, yes. Oh, it's too bad but they really are the best. And so they are both sober. And now I told you bill Bill W never has to drink again. Bill Wilson when he sees God that night is sober for the rest of his life. Oh slips no Dr. Bomb has been getting wasted every single day for at least 16 years. And he gets sober for a long time has one relapse on a guess what business trip? A medical convention then he comes back, he gets back into the, you know, he's with Bill Wilson, he gets it back. His last drink, Bill Wilson gives him and it's a beer to study his hands for a surgery. And after that he literally never drinks again, never has another relapse. That date is June 10 1935, which is what is considered the birthday of AAA. Because now you've got Bill Wilson, who achieves lifelong sobriety, who has converted his first we now know lifelong, sober and it's Bill and Bob. Yeah, they're the founders of AAA. So now what do we do? We've achieved we've won, it's sort of like I like to think about it like a lab, like like to experimenters who just like a light, the light bulb literally worked, and being like, Okay, we have this precious thing. Now, what do we do? How do we, what do we do next? And they're like, Well, let's start telling people so they move in together. Bill like lives with Bob for a while, it's kind of cute. EBI also lived briefly with Bill, which I think is kind of hot. Just like let's not drink and live together. What should we do? What should we do like paid jobs. There's
no record of that. There's no time for hand jobs on your chains. Okay.
Coffee, and cigarettes can save you from a lot, it turns out, they would
have lost their minds if they had ever tasted Red Bull. Truly, honestly,
though. So Bill and Bob decide that we're gonna write it down. Make sense. So they write the big book, Alcoholics Anonymous, is the title. And it is pretty much exactly the same today, as it was when it was printed in 1939. It was originally Alcoholics Anonymous how 100 people have achieved sobriety through this 12 STEP program. It is now of course, well over 100, the introduction is exactly the same. And then it goes through the 12 steps. And then it's got stories from specific individuals who remain anonymous, that generally tell how they began drinking, how bad it got, how many things they tried to get sober than how this program worked for them, and how long they've been sober since. And so the thing that really changes with their Republicans every decade or so, is update on the stories and the individuals and their experiences.
Quick question, because I remember reading it and reading this, all the stories have the same vibe, like all of them were written in very much the same way. Is that still true?
You know, it's interesting, I read a few myself, and it does seem like there is something of a formula, which is exactly what I said, How I started drinking and how it got so bad. And it does, it feels sort of like when you've read enough like trashy magazine, bio pieces, you know, where they're like, Hey, she walked into the room with her red suit. And I knew you know what I mean? You can sort of feel so yeah, there is no one however, that I've ever heard suggest that these stories aren't totally authentic. I think what they probably have is, they're all written in the first person. I here's what happened to me. But who knows how much of that was written keys fingers to keys or or has been ghostwritten and oral? Yeah, but like a therapist, was reading a book. Exactly. But yeah, I read a few of the stories and they were very compelling. And I think that one of the things that if you are not able to get into a physical meeting, that the book accomplishes is make you feel like you have peers, if one is consuming the book, Alcoholics Anonymous and going to it to try to solve a drinking problem that one of the things you're gonna get from this book is camaraderie. Yeah, you're gonna read about these individuals. And no matter where you're at, or what you've done, or what you've seen, you're going to be nodding and being like, yeah, okay, they get it,
don't get me who you are. Okay.
And so and they published the book and they send it out. Now, this is one of my favorite elements of this story, Jason, because you know, I do history girl I do in the eyes and the ears. Well, I love it. I'll tell you how this story can often go in history. This is when it fucks up to really great individuals with really great stories and the purest of intentions. Find some level of success have achieved a major goal for themselves decide to share this goal to to compartmentalize and structure their success in a way that can be consumed by others. And then it's usually right here where if it's going to turn evil, for lack of a better word, turn dark get get to be a sore in the history of humanity. It's here. I have the book. I've written it down. I will sell it to you for 1999 You're gonna purchase it again every other year. There's also an audio program. We've cornered the mark Going on what the 12 steps are the 12 steps are now trademarked. You know what I mean? And if you want to go to our licensed facilities, you have to pay us 20%. And we're going to it could have gone that way right away, easy. Or a spiritual they've, they've said higher power, and they've kept it sort of ambiguous, but they can really commodify what that higher power, it's the a higher power. We speak to them every night to pray to the AAA Howard power, you will have to recognize us as some sort of priests. I mean, the pages of history are filled with this. Among the things that makes the story of a unique is that not only did they not do that, they never did that no one has ever done that in here. And it's lovely. Yeah. And it could have they asked JD Rockefeller for money. They said, We have this book and sobriety and you see it's working, can we have a gazillion dollars to spread the word? And he said, No, I'll give you five grand to print it. And then you should really consider never ever making any money, or having any of you run anything like a corporation, because he knew better than anybody. That's where it all falls to shit. Right? Don't try to get rich off this man. It'll spoil it. And God, you know, bless them. They did. Great. And so they wrote down in this book, there were no dues, no hierarchy, every group is its own. I mean, it's laid out in there and these 12 steps. It's published in 1939. And 2000. People like that, right. And I mean, it, you know, that's I'm not saying they sold 2000 copies, I'm saying 2000 people are in a, they might be sharing the same books, you know what I mean? There's 2000 people in it. But that's a lot. They went from 100. It's gotten to Cleveland, it's gone to Chicago, there's little pockets, there's people who are like, yes, we get it, we get these 12 steps, we're gonna do this and there's some success, then, oh, 1941 just like every artist, just like every organization, they go viral. Okay. The Saturday Evening Post publishes this beautiful article called the drunkards best friend. And it says, there's this program called Alcoholics Anonymous, and they have this book and all these people are achieving the impossible and everybody in America at this point, just like now knows and loves someone with a with an addiction of some kind that they see taking their lives from them. Right. So this is when a it's the big time. That article was published in 1941. In 1942, there a membership has tripled, to 6000 by 1950. It's 90,000. Super important. 1956. The American Medical Association defines alcoholism as a disease. This is huge for several reasons. One is the psychological impact that has on alcoholics and non alcoholics. I like to recognize this something other than just being a sinful piece of shit, just steal where a lot of people start, right? What's wrong with me? What's wrong with you? anymore? I'm not anymore, right? And it defines it too. It's a primary disease. It comes right organically from an individual it is it's chronic, it is progressive. It is symptomatic, and it is fatal if untreated. And this is all from the American Medical Association, which of course, the other thing. And then the other thing that this does, in addition to like, what how it affects the psyche of people is insurance companies, because if it's defined as a disease, it means they need to start addressing it, which is again in the plot of the story where a could have gone bad. Yeah. Oh, it's a disease. And insurance companies are covering it. You just pay it could have immediate but they have baked into their introduction I read to you at the beginning, no dues, no fees, no membership. And that is from great grandma, the Oxford group, right. By 1975. There are 500,000 people in AAA by the early 80s. It's 1 million by the Millennium 2000. There were 2 million people in AAA. In 1945, there are about 500 groups. Today, there are 125,000 groups in all 50 states in 180 nations, there are over 25 offshoots of this like structure of like the 12 step higher power from cocaine anonymous gamblers anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, there's so many that sort of follow this structure. So what I'm going to do next is talk about that structure, what an AAA meeting is and what it's like to kind of encounter AAA. Today, and you when was the last time that you attended an AAA meeting?
I haven't been to a meeting oh my god since 20, either 2014 or 2015. I can't remember
see. And I was told when I moved here that if you wanted to see a celebrity, the two best places were Runyon Canyon and AAA meetings. Yes. This is it's still true. So when you decided you needed a meeting, did you already know where you were gonna go? Or are you looking at like a directory for like, what's near you or what's happening,
there's definitely a directory that you that anybody can access, if they're really having a hard time with alcohol. I was suggested a meeting by the psychotherapist at a when I was in rehab. So she's like, this is a gay meeting, go to the go to West Hollywood, go to a gay meeting, find yourself some sober gay friends, right. So that's what I did every Saturday for like a year, I went with my closest friend in rehab, and we would, we would go to the meeting in West Hollywood, and then we would go to Swingers,
that's a hell of a Saturday now. Sounds like there's give or take six different types of meetings. There's open meetings, which means and literally anyone can go, you don't even have to identify as an alcoholic, you can just go to like, see what happens here. have really bad hot chocolate or coffee into your celebrity, right? But you still have to be anonymous, and you can't talk about it. And then there's closed meetings, which are for self identifying alcoholics, only speaker meetings, which is apparently they're invited speakers that are delivering a particular message or a member who is going to tell their story, discussion sort of sitting in a circle style sharing at the same time, big book meetings, where they read from the Alcoholics Anonymous big book and step meetings where they focus on one or several of the 12 steps and how they're doing on those. There's no they they encourage donations, if you can, you're asked to serve, set up chairs or clean up and then sponsor other people. Does that sound like your experience?
Yes, I did. I did a combination of open meetings, a lot of speaker meetings. It's so funny, because the place I used to go to was right across the street from the log cabin, which was the really, really popular, like gay meeting spot, and they would do speaker meetings. It got to a point though, where I was like, You guys are just doing a tight half hour. I'm like, like, we got it. You've perfected your, your thing. We've seen it before. Let's get
right. And I'm gonna need some more hazelnut creamer over here.
Yeah, I mean, at a certain point, it all all starts to sound very similar. Like you were saying with the stories at the beginning. You're just like, Okay, issue problem. Problem Solving. Now, here's where I am today. Yeah. So it got very frustrating to hear after a certain point, which is this has actually been super healing because I did not leave a
happy. So what I want to do now is go through the 12 step. Oh, my God. Okay. And you jump in again. Did you please. Okay, so and I, my understanding is that they are progressive, you start at one and go to 12. But they aren't necessarily in this order. Like you could just do, like you want to do them all. But if you if you need to skip six and do seven, you can do that. Is that not how you experienced it? My experience
was that if you were like having a super duper hard time, you could jump around and skip six and go straight to seven or eight. I just left. You left. I just left the group. Yeah, but from what I remember, I feel like we could pare these down to about eight steps. But we'll we'll see if this
okay. Scratches, the the 12 steps as presented by a step one, we admitted we were powerless over alcohol, or cocaine or gambling or whatever. Yeah, 12 step here and that our lives have become unmanageable. Jack. Step two, came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. I talked earlier about not like the crazy shit you do when you're drinking but this insanity of thinking you can just keep doing this. And somehow something's just gonna organically. I can just do a bump. No, yeah, yeah, no problem. But and this is where the greater power, they said specifically that the greater power can be this group, right? Like the higher power can just be the five people in this room or to collectively the higher power outside of myself. And there is a chapter in the big book I read it called for us agnostics. So for whatever reason, I really do put it in print. Step number three, made a decision to turn our will our lives over to the care of God, as we understand them.
Just make him sound like two two.
Well, maybe like maybe two is like okay, I believe that a higher power can restore me to sanity. I believe that and then step three is I've decided to give that over to the higher power that seems like to Dylan. Yes, step three could be separate paragraphs so that could be a baby step two little baby steps. You know when he probably he started with six this is true and was like 12 sounds better. So some of these I think, well how many apostles were there? That's exactly why he did. Bless his heart number for me. made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. moral inventory. Sounds helpful that sounds like everyone could do a thorough moral inventory. Absolutely. How's that step for you?
How would I fuck like thinking about how I fucked up and who I needed to apologize to you? Super helpful?
Who doesn't need that? Now everything from this that that last step four on down is pretty much lifted from the Oxford group. Great Grandma. So step number five admitted to God to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Confession, that's
usually when you would you would sit down with your sponsor and go, here's how I fucked up. And here's why. And here's why. I'm blah, blah, blah. Which is kind of feels not great. Sure. Well, I just in terms of like, you have people who are not therapists who are attempting the therapies she wants, I remember being really uncomfortable during this point. And I do remember hearing stories about people who would do step five with their sponsor and their sponsor would, at a later date, hold whatever they've done over their head later. So it was like, Yeah, can get kind of tricky.
That's tricky. And it's tricky, too, because it's a very, sort of universally understood lowercase metallics good thing to do, which is confess, talk about it. You've done right, but like, yeah, not to just anybody, right? Just on anywhere, right? I can see that. Number six, we entirely we are entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Feel like could have been combined with five but okay.
Sure, and also be like, Well, don't remove all. Some of these defects are kind of fun. Yeah, no, I can. Okay. Number seven, humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings.
Again, these are all very good,
they are great. And again, this is why when you read these, if you are sort of spiritually agnostic and self defined, fuck you as I am. Why and how AAA could have this as their 12 Step V. 12 steps, the thing we all know and never been dogmatic. Authoritarian from an overlying that an individual group may be sure, sure, something, you know, they obviously didn't take these steps to the worst case scenario that we can both imagine. Right? Do you know I mean, right. Number eight, made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
Very helpful,
very helpful, very, what a wonderful idea,
which is, this is the this is what I stopped.
Okay, so you made you made the list of all the people you've wronged. And then then after that, make direct amends to such people whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. I think that's an important step. Because there I do know that there are some like, you come clean over there. I don't need I don't need you to come clean with me. Right? And there's nothing to recognize.
There's people who don't want to talk to me. So I'm just like, I decided that
you're on my list on my list. I'm gonna leave you alone. But you're on my list. Yes, I'm number 10. continued to take personal inventory. And when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. So you can jump over? Yeah, either. That one number 11. sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understand Him, praying only for knowledge of his will, for us and the power to carry that out.
That's where the 12 steps I feel like takes a tonal terms. Because like it feels very lifted from somewhere else, because the other ones feel like they were written by the same person and then that one feels not written by this imprint. Sure.
And then they do make a point of putting always, as you understand, there's all these disclaimers for all the people who are like, I don't like that. And yet, at the beginning, meditation who can't benefit from a little regular meditation, we love a good meditation. And step number 12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. There you go. Yeah, one through 12 through 12. There's no fighting. Apparently, at any AAA meeting, no fighting, no confrontation. There's no leaders, there's no, that may be the group's individual rules. No CEO they call anyone who's sort of in charge or leading is just a trusted servant. out outside issues. It's believed when he wrote the fellowship. So there's nothing political. I imagine that is always very difficult, but the tech particularly right now, and I thought this was really interesting, the why the animosity is so key to Alcoholics Anonymous. Why do we remain anonymous? And why do we require you to remain anonymous? Because it's not just like you're welcome to come and you don't even need to say who you are. It's like no, don't say who you are. Right. The first Just to spare the members the stigma of being an alcoholic, I mean, our first two members that are important stockbroker and a doctor, you can see why they weren't really eager to be the poster children for alcoholism, right. The second reason is to prevent the organization from really public high profile people being like, I am the face of AAA. And one of the problems with that is that people's egos then start to be like, everyone knows me. And everyone knows that I'm the so I'm the one who's achieved sobriety and AAA and I'm this big AAA star, therefore I'm better than the rest of them. I can probably have a drink or two and not fall into the hole, like it tends to just defeat an individual's actual journey to sobriety to like, publicize who they are. And then the other side of that coin is if they relapse, these very non anonymous high profile people look at me, I'm the face of AAA, they suddenly relapse now, AAA looks like they don't work and it can bring the whole organization I just thought it was like a really thorough explanation for why. Before we do, I just wanted to briefly mention Lois Wilson. Yes. Do you know anything about her? It was Bill Wilson's loyal wife, right? was just like, you know, making that money on the stock broker, and you're just such a hopeless drunk, but she stayed with him, you know, through the whole thing. And when he started Alcoholics Anonymous, shortly after that, in 1951, she started allanon, which is for people who are affected by the alcoholism of others. And then in 1957, she started Alateen, which is for teenagers who are specifically affected by alcoholism and others. And I know a lot of people who have found great community within Al Anon and Alateen because it has, it doesn't matter what the alcoholic is doing, if they're in recovery or not, if they're in 12 steps or not, it's just sort of a way to share like, and you don't have to say my dad's, like, the anonymity isn't only for you, it's more of the, like, I want to be able to talk about what's going on. But I don't want to have to say who the individual is, you know,
yeah, my dog. This is This was really fun to revisit, because like, like I said, I didn't have a great experience.
I think that sometimes going back to the origin of something, whether you love it or you hate it can always give you if nothing else, a new perspective on it. It's why I love history in general and why I have had so much fun fucking the history of this particular episode. Listen, Jason Ryan, I adore you tell me that you will come back and be a guest
100% I'll give you one of the other 24th What have you done?
Jason, am I right? Now you have inevitably fallen in love with him too. So make sure to follow him and see him live whenever you can. The next episode. Oh, it's a very special treat. I am going deep on the history of the most salacious and enduring sex toy, the vibrator. And what's more, my guests are my two big sisters and my mom, you won't want to miss it. In the meantime, our theme song was composed and performed by cat Perkins. A reminder that you can find my sources, links to the books, documentaries and articles I reference in the summary of this episode, or by emailing us hilft podcast@gmail.com or messaging us on social media at Hilfe podcast. This has been Hill history I'd like to fuck with Dawn Brodey I'm Dawn Brodey reminding you that history is a party and everybody's coming
this is that's so fucked up a podcast about colts murder and other fucked up stuff like really, really fucked up stuff. He cut off her nipples tore out her heart, tied it to a rope and hung it on the wall
after spending three years really tapping into her Divine Feminine she finds out she's divine masculine.
That's a mind fuck yeah. Yeah, mine fuck is that fucking sharks? Eight mark under the dinghy.
After his dad dies. He
fucking marries all his dad's wives. Yeah, okay. Yes.
He like marries all his stepmom.
There was this egg thing where you line up like seven or eight guys side by side. They lay on their backs with their eyes closed. And whoever is like the alpha in the room, they crack an egg into that person's mouth and then they pass the egg mouth to mouth until they get to the end of the line. And then the last person has just follow the egg.
Oh And they're naked did you say that
it didn't say if they were naked
okay I just feel like there could be we're your hosts I'm Ashley Richards and I'm Michelle Moser join us on Apple podcasts Spotify
