My name is Catherine Carr. And this is season three of relatively, the podcast all about potentially the longest relationships of your life.
You are happy to do it. I don't recall you complaining about it.
I just wanted someone to play with.
I'll be bringing siblings together to talk about the connections they have as adults, as well as what it was like growing up together.
It was rock and roll. It was sadder than the in between.
This week, we're talking to the political journalist Louis Goodall. Hello, hi. And this sister, Megan.
Yeah, it's like he's always in a rush constantly in a rush.
Just a nice brother.
But I'll also talk to them separately to get a more private take on the relationship.
In the whole of the family, I was the only kid and I kind of love that and I really didn't feel that we needed another one.
We didn't get on the best to be honest for our probably our teenage years. Were very different people always have been literally opposite ends of the scale.
Brothers and sisters are never straightforward. Oh, no. What have you said?
I said I wasn't gonna be an eye.
Lewis and Meghan grew up in Birmingham in a busy household with both parents working shifts, and it's fair to say the chalk and cheese duo took a while to form a close relationship. Louis went to Oxford University leaving Meghan to cope with supporting her mum who had some mental health difficulties alone. We talk about that about collecting stuff about the crystal maze about ace granddad's being a pudgy kid, taking advantage of a sibling and growing to depend on them. But Louis started by outlining his feelings around Meghan's arrival.
I've always thought that the age gap between Meghan and me is the most sub optimal one, because I remember very much the world where she wasn't there. And I very much felt, I mean, people might be so astonished to hear this, but I was quite a kind of, I like quite like the attention of the child. My mom had me when she was very young, she was 17. And so I was with in the whole of the family, I was the only kid and I kind of love that and I really didn't feel that we needed another one. I was quite, I was quite good. I didn't I didn't see what role she would be fulfilling and and I was even more annoyed when I discovered that she was not a boy because I wanted a brother if I was gonna have a sibling I decided for whatever reason the four year old me that I wanted a brother and she wasn't any of those things. So I remember going to see her at the hospital and being deeply unimpressed.
So when you arrived he was I mean four year old boys or something else and he said he was quite disappointed a that another baby was needed and B that it wasn't a boy baby were you aware of this when you got a little bit older?
Yes, apparently he was absolutely heartbroken cried refuse to come and see me at the hospital. Did
you Did um, do you have a nickname for her from childhood or now?
No, we just get out go away when it when I was a child I always just call the Mac megogo away it was I was racking my brains name for it. But I think I did it was just got away.
We did argue a lot. Especially as we got older we didn't get on the best to be honest for our probably our teenage years. Were very different people always have been literally opposite ends of the scale completely.
I just didn't I just didn't want anything to do with her. I guess I should she wanted that. I was very self reliant. Child. I had my granddad who was there quite a lot all my other relatives or I was just I mainly just sat on my own, like, you know, reading a book or playing with my fingers or whatever it was watching game shows. That was another big thing that was in to watch a game show. And she often when we were a bit older, she often wanted to play and want to do things. I just I just I just said no, I don't want this. Like chalk and cheese were very different personalities. I just sort of pushed her away. And it wasn't until kind of more recent years that we became closer.
You really didn't like it.
We didn't like each other. Obviously, we didn't like our personalities clashed. We were very different sort of roles. And all of those all of those sorts of things. But as I say happily well, I'll be very interesting. Well, maybe she didn't. Happily I think that's changed a lot. Now.
Did you get on when you were little kids? Do you remember playing together or anything?
We did, we did play together and probably probably once I reached about six or seven. To be fair to me be very good at making games, but it was always on his terms. I couldn't choose the game.
What sort of games
so once I can remember would be he would pretend to play pubs and he'd get like a massive piece of card and write down all these different names of drinks. And honestly, it was it was so like, you know this six year old girl was pretending to pour pints and all this.
And then was he always the punter then or was he the landlord?
You know what I can't remember. I can't remember. To be honest,
I've got a slight bone to pick with you because this is I mean, this is how it works. You talk to one than the other and you get a slightly different version of events? Oh, no, what have you said?
I wasn't gonna be an I.
I've been sat here wondering what you've been saying. So
it's not mean things. It's just so your version of your childhood. And, you know, the good old brother and sister is that, you know, basically you would have done anything to avoid spending any time with her or playing with her. But actually, Meghan's version of the childhood is that you made her plate all sorts of games, in which she had sort of subordinate or crazy rocket. So let's just let's just see if you can remember any of the games that you made her play because I've got a list.
Yeah, that is true that there was some I think you would accept though, Megan, that I did often tell you to go away. That is true, right?
Yeah. But then I think when you were just when he was a bit bored. You just used to use me for games?
Well, yeah, that's, that's possible. I remember, like, maybe running like a pub. And I got, like, changing the barrels and stuff like that. What else? What else was there?
Probably when we got a little bit older, we would play the crystal maze. But he always had to be the guy like the main guy. The bald guy. Yeah, the bald guy. It was always him. I was never allowed to be the presenter. And I don't know, have you seen it? But obviously the challenge is all I remember is me always saying I don't want to do a mental challenge and be like, Well, tough. That's what you're doing. Right. Okay. But I was so desperate to play. I was like, Yeah, okay, I'll just do whatever you say.
Crystal maze. Yes, that's right.
You even had a jacket? You did you? How did you remember? I like literally, and I was never allowed to be the house and used to make me do all the mental challenges. And I said, I didn't want to do mental I want to do physical. And you were like, no.
No, I'd forgotten about that. I did love the Bristol Myers.
Was it about it that you loved Louis so much? Was it the sort of Camp drama?
Yes, yes. Which I brought into my journalism, obviously. Yeah, I just loved all game shows. But there was something particularly kind of mystical about the crystal maze. I just, it was just, it was just wonderful.
I tell you, one thing that you used to do as well, that I remember is, he would pretend to be a radio to DJ. And I'd have to be his guest all the time. And he would put a headset on me or have a microphone or something. And he would record he had jingles and everything. No word of a lie. He'd made his own jingles.
Can you remember any of them? Because Oh, my goodness, those would be worth some money. Now.
You know what I can't? It's a shame. It's a shame that computer isn't hanging around anymore.
Well, I recall, you know, I just forgotten about it. I mean, I've never actually done radio too. So and it's not too late radio to if you're listening, I'm still still for doing it.
When and how did you make the jingles and what would they have sounded like if we had a copy of them here. And now. They definitely don't exist. I know their mom listens to this, I'm so desperate to
barely use a computer got lovely, she wouldn't be able to claim, I think they sounded a lot like the normal radio jingles just with my name attached to them. Definitely
added like dingling, Ling Ling, things like that into them. And I was never allowed to host ever, and I've never even allowed to choose who I was allowed to be.
But that did not prepare you exceptionally well for this interview. I'm not really but you know, you were happy to you were happy to do it. I don't recall complaining about it.
I just wanted someone to play with.
It's a lot about the abuse of power. Basically, this guy often is on this podcast. He's quite unflamboyant, it really isn't quite quite the performer.
He is very much so very much. So
when we were kids, because we were very different personalities. And I was really outgoing. And like, you know, a bit of an attention seeker again, people might be amazed. And she was much more reserved and much Shire. And I was you know, at school. You know, I used to quite do quite well at school and I was a bit of a sort of, you know, one of those kids that kind of everyone knew, and I think that sometimes I think she sometimes felt that like she was
shadow. Well, no,
I didn't wanna use that phrase. It sounds a bit Hey, I don't mean it like that. It isn't like that. It's just that some sort of character I was right. And I think that and I think she sometimes like when I used to, in that kind of like, slightly condescending Big Brother way it would be like right now I'm going to help you with your homework, because I know I've done this already. Or like, I'm gonna help you about, you know, college applications or whatever. Because I've gone through it. She's always resistant hugely. She was always like, no, no, no, no, I don't want to know, you know, just because you don't know me.
Yeah, he, I do remember, he used to always come and try and help me and stuff. And I was like, I'm just not interested. Like, I was more sociable. And I was I discovered boys and I was more interested in in kind of the social aspects of things, but I do I do remember it sticking with me that my mom told me once there as we went to the same primary school, so we ended up with a lot the same primary teachers. As we were going up the air groups, they noticed that actually, during that time, I was the more intelligent child which I think I've probably thrown in his face a few times, that I was more naturally intelligent, and didn't have to work hard. Whereas Luke had to work a little bit harder to keep his intelligence so I do. And that is also one of my claim to fame. I think.
I'm definitely putting that in the description for this podcast episode just so you know, the more naturally intelligent Meghan and her brother Louis. This season the relatively is sponsored by find my past the online home of the 1921 census. Almost a century after 38 million people completed the census, find my past was chosen by the National Archives to digitise and preserve every one of the eight and a half million household churches, they fill them. And now after three years of painstaking diligent work by a huge team, the census is finally available online. Where will your past take you find out in the 1921 census exclusively available online at Find my past.co.uk There is a theory I was reading the other day about siblings that, you know, people have their roles in the family. So you've just described yourself as like the outgoing one, and that this one and that that one, there is a theory that siblings don't only sort of define themselves in opposition to their brother or sister, but they sort of divide up the characteristics and once one is gone, it's taken. And people don't realise they're doing it. It's sort of subconscious. But then if you say lost a sibling, sadly, when your older siblings often say, oh, you know, he was my confidence. You know, she was my she was like the reflective part of me. And I think that's quite interesting. If you've got a little sister that's coming up behind quite a, you know, out there big brother, maybe that was subconsciously what was going on? She was like, okay, he's taken that role. I'm gonna. Yeah,
it just is really, really interesting. Yeah, I think that's probably true. It's probably true for me as well. I mean, I remember in that kind of way, I would sometimes talk to my mum or dad, or my dad and granddad. And we might have, we might be talking about different members of the family. And I think I would often say, Well, Megan's like that, but I'm not, you know, like, or whatever. I think I think you're right, I think I think we do probably define ourselves against our siblings, and in a way, like it's a relationship. I haven't we, in the past probably thought that much about because I suppose with siblings, they are just, they're on there. So clearly, you didn't think about that much in that kind of in, in that way.
To be honest, I wouldn't say he was that outgoing. Like, through his teenage years. It was more when he started university that I'd say his confidence and everything came on. To be honest. I would say I was more the outgoing one in during our teenage years.
As a teenager, I was Yeah, I was very students interested in lots of sort of things like drama, and learning languages and doing these extra classes. I was just sort of like unbearable, probably, I mean, like, like politics. Council use things where I would go along as a sort of, like local little, like young dignitary. I mean, it was sort of ridiculous, really. And my mom would often be my sort of like me, she showed me around, I'd love to do all this stuff. We sporty was, I was sporting, I'd really fat I was really fat until I was about 15. I was very, I was very fat, much to my mom's two grand.
He said he was quite overweight until he was 15.
He was and I think that was probably what caused it. What caused you know why he didn't really go out very much or anything like that. After he'd lost all the weight, he realised he was quite funny. And started to gain popularity from that, if you know what I mean. And that's where his confidence came from.
What would happen is I would always spend our summers at it's not just summers, but Easter half term, you know, with my Nana and granddad at their shop. They had a couple of shops, little souvenir shops in north Wales. And I would go work with my granddad literally from I mean, I was soaking I mean, I idolised them and so much that I was all I wanted to do was go and see them both. And I would literally on the last day of school, get my mom to take me to the car to north Wales, I would come back the day before school started, I would just stand by him. And he's working on his shop every single day. And he was my hero. He still is my hero. So I'm good. I'm good with retail. If the journalism thing goes wrong, I can open a shop.
Yeah, like my mom was worse for it. She would just constantly cook him sausage and chips and chips in the frying pan. And my mom used to go mad. She'd be like, stop feeding him every time she kept coming to pick him off. It put like an extra step. My mom tried her best, but you just like D in
my mom was she was a fitness fanatic. And she would put me on the diets which would work and like exercise. She's like, we're going to do exercises, which would work the problem was, I would then go to North Wales for Easter, or for the six for the holidays. And I would come back to snow and heavy all the good work would have been gone because my nan and granddad would just feed me up. They would just say, Come on, come on, like you know, like, do you want to do another fish and chips tonight? Or bad sausage and chips? And you know, and there's so many embarrassing photographs of me like being in like Benidorm or something with her. Like, I look like a blimp orange like honestly I look about 60 I've got like a son that on a massive I'm sat next to him. I'm sat next to my mother who's like 30 at the time who looks I mean it's a bit weird thing. So but she looks incredible. He got six back she's like, you know, I just she looks Like, you know, it's just unbelievable. I mean, my mom had this, again to add that element of a few years before where she was infinitely cooler than me, you know, she had this little tea or a car, and she was just sort of drive around Birmingham with it, playing, you know, very, very fashionable music and me being a complete bore that I was like, I don't want this Can we put on radio for? No, absolutely not. If he was just infinitely cooler than me.
I have if I remember a lot of your friends liked her very much, which you found very embarrassing.
She was a source of some interest by some of the older boys as they would think I know. And they would sing Lewis's mom has God had going on it was just unbearable. I mean, like you said to me, boy school, you would have these absurd questions which are unanswerable. So be like, Louis, you fancy your mom like, Well, no. Oh, is that because you're gay? Like, That's not? That's not the question here. It was. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was deeply debilitating.
I mean, it's all very in between, isn't it really a lot extremely,
extremely Correct. Yeah.
So you've told me that your mum was a young man. What else was sort of defined your childhood? What kind of household was it? Was it a fun one? Was it a studious one? Was it chaotic? organised? What was the fight?
It was it was it was a loud household. My dad is a big character, my mom in her own way is quite a big character, you know, or to kind of, like have our say about things. And so it could be quite sort of antagonistic, when we're quite, quite quick to kind of fire up quite quickly about something and it would, and then just sort of disappear again quite quickly as well. You know, it's kind of I mean, the trick is, you know, in some ways, like, sometimes we didn't see that much of each other because my dad was like, he still is he was a welder at the rover factory in Birmingham. We did not far from there. And so he often worked shifts, like he would often come in just as we were going to school. I was particularly I got older, very involved in lots of different things outside of school, and all that sort of stuff. So I was sort of coming and going all the time. My mom used to work very odd shifts as an assistant midwife, as well. So actually, sometimes we were a bit like sort of drains in the night.
I had a really happy childhood. I look back on my childhood very, very fondly. The the biggest thing I remember about being in a household is my mom has really severe OCD, and really, really severe, and we weren't allowed to sit on the sofa during the day. We work with Beth the questions are,
my mom is like Unbeliev. She's sort of unbelievably obsessed with keeping things clean and tidy. If we would go away for the weekend. No one had been in the house, no one, and she'd come back and vacuum straightaway. She'd have these towels on display and she'd say, don't use those towels. So what you mean tell us is that they're my best towels.
Yeah, yeah. We had a lot of things. It wasn't just house we had mugs for show. I'm pretty sure there was a tea pot for showing like sugar canisters for show. Everything was for show. Like I remember my friends come around, say on Amiga. And you can't use that towel. It's for show.
I mean, we basically weren't allowed to live in the house. It was a show home or a show home. Yeah, or kind of laboratory where germs were not allowed to breed. I think my mom's approach is very much that kind of the house came first. And second. She'll love that. It was a bit irritating to have these children who kept ruining things, you know, rotting the kitchen arrangements.
It was the cushions definitely the cushions and you had to remove the cushions before you sat on the sofa. And you had to remove your top pillow before you go to bed. Because that pillows for show.
Yeah. She's insane. classifiable
was your a messy then Louis when you were a kid.
Yes, it was. Yeah, it was quite messy. It was quite messy. And also I have a lot of things I collected a lot of things like minerals and rocks and stamps and coins and cigarette cards. And you know I mean everything little figurines Star Trek spaceships, Star Wars, but I mean like there's so I have a lot of stuff. This is something else that she load
and another that was granddad all that was down to ground. That would go
again to go back to the sort of shop thing I would go with my granddad to go and like buy stock for the shop and he would always buy it. I love that all I love that ornament granddad have a big snowy owl. I love it. It'd be like, son, I said, we'll get you that. That's fine. You can tell that I'm not cracking in your room. My mother would just she was like, she's like, it's just so tacky. But I don't know how you've mentioned that. One of the reasons it was so messy because I always have to have this tiny room and you had the big room.
Yeah, and what was the reason girls with things like prams? Yeah, but I
had the story Owl and the laboratory stuff. I mean, it's it's honestly I really, it really offended me. That's that was that was a big thing. That was a big source of antagonism which was for a while I had a sofa bed it was that small I hoped you know, that's what you
see had a sofa bed that you had to deploy at nighttime and then put back again.
Yes, yes. Nice to sit there and watch news night of an evening on my mother's side. Yeah, absolutely upside.
The image of sort of teenage loose at a certain point a little bit overweight with collections of various stools. Yeah, not a little while. watching news No.
is rock and roll I tell you that it was sadder than the in between.
And I'll talk sorry, I know I'm going off topic a little bit. But I'll tell you another thing he got me to him. So when he when he was living at home, Louis's room was full of books. And I mean, there must have been hundreds of them hundreds. He got me to help him sit and colour code them all. Every single book, I'm talking hundreds, I don't know why I agree to it thinking looking back like, what was I think it I think maybe just that younger sibling eager to please kind of thing. And the thing for attention. Anything for a bit of attention? Yeah. And thinking maybe at some point, he'd play a game that I wanted to play. But no, that never came? No. Do you remember?
I remember now, I know, you mentioned it.
Yeah, you wouldn't even you wouldn't even help me put my videos away or anything. But I had to do all that. Well, that's
because I had to deal with the books, you know, and I had to I had my radio station to maintain. And I had my, you know, my crystal maze production empire to continue with none of that without me. No, that's true. I suppose that's true. You know what? You're right. I did i We, I suppose what I suppose what I what's true to say it was on my terms.
So when would you say you did become friends then? And and what? What made it happen?
I think that a few things, probably over the last few years, I think changed things. And we are much closer now. Our mom, like over the last 10 years, he's had a series of sort of mental and physical health problems, even though she's very young. Really. She's only 51. I think that that sort of brought us closer, although it also produced probably some kind of extra antagonism.
I think I spent about 13 for well, about 14 at the time. Yeah, I kind of took on a little bit of a caring role for my mom. And I would say around that time, mainly, we probably didn't get on very well. And I think some of that probably came from a little bit of resentment, because he he'd kind of gone and I was left to deal with it. And I was, you know, I was only 1415 I was still you know, having my best teenage years. So I would say that's probably where our relationship broke down a little bit.
While she was ill. I was at university and I think Ned kind of felt that she was like, at home having to deal with it and taking the brunt. You know, where was I was was with I should have been there. But of course, it was difficult for me in a different sort of way, because I was at university while all this was going on. So it was difficult to know, what was what was happening.
Because I always remember as Wiley coming in from Oxford, and everyone would make this massive force. And I'm like, but I've been here the whole time. And, you know, that kind of thing. And obviously that wasn't, now we've grown up a bit. It's not his fault that that happened. It was tough time. But also, it's kind of made me who I am today. So yeah, I wouldn't change it.
You were COPPA, then if you coped with that. I am.
I don't think Louise will cope quite as well.
You can say that because he's not here. That's the beauty of this.
I will tell that to his face, he probably knows.
I was very, very close to my granddad, who died a few years ago, I think I helped her through that, which I think kind of, again, sort of brought us closer. And then a few years ago, I had a few sort of difficulties in my personal life. And, you know, she was really there for me during that time. I don't think even before that point, I would have even considered talking to her about like anything particularly sort of personal to me.
I think that kind of surprised everybody to be honest, especially my mum and dad. When I kind of rang my mom and said, Look, I think I've got for you, Tim, I think, you know, we've we've had good conversations and all this. And she was like what you rang you?
Yeah, I remember she just had this conversation with me. She just phoned me up. But she knew I was in a bit of a difficult place. And she sort of said, Lindsay, no, why don't you tell me about this? And I was told basically, well, what are you gonna say? She said, Well, I'm not good anymore. Why don't you just talk to me? And actually interested and you know, what I talked to all the time during that period. And then she was really, really helpful. And I do
think that for quite some years, like Louis still thought of me as this tiny, tiny little sister. Whereas, you know, a fully grown woman, I've got children I can, I can deal with issues and I can help and we did, we became we became good friends. He came to see me in Chester. I mean, Altai II forgot his wallet. When we went to the pub, he didn't tell me that. I'm not gonna lie. He was like, Oh, I forgot my wallet. Of course you have. And yeah, we sat and had a couple of drinks. And yeah, I think that was probably a good turning point for us in our relationship.
I was ever when she needed me. She was there for me when I needed her. And I think that, you know, there is always this sense that we're not alone siblings that, you know, speak every day or every week, but if the other need each other, I think we both know that we're there for each other, and also her having kids as well. I think she kind of felt like I remember she said to me once she said like, I've done something you haven't done. It's great.
Yeah, when I had my daughter, I was like, yes, you can't do this. I've done it, but you can't do it. It's not something you can talk me on. No,
she's incredibly successful. She does and she's brilliant. She's clever, and all those sort of things. I'm so proud of her. And I think those combination of things has definitely brought us closer.
Thank you to Lewis. And to Megan. I remember
I used to call him a nerd a lot as we were growing up and a geek. Yeah, that was pretty much all I called him all the time. Because, like I said, we're so opposite.
You can see really sweet pictures of Louis and Meghan, and all the guests from Season One, two, and three, at relatively podcast.com. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to our sponsors for this season, a relatively find my past for digging into their extraordinary records and uncovering surprising and often revelatory family stories. Find My past is the only place online where you can access the 1921 census. So if you want to start your family tree or add colour to what you know already, then find my past or co.uk is the place to do it. Find my past offering listeners to relatively 25% of any subscription had to find my past.co.uk Use the discount code relatively 25. That's the numbers two five, enter the code at checkout and the discount will be applied. It lasts until the 31st of July next week. The last episode of the season is with the comedian Tom Ward, and his sister Charlie.
Tradition of love and hate. Stay my fireside this good tradition of love and hate stained by the Fireside another way for your father's calling you. You still feel safe inside a Lamaze to crowd the brothers ignoring you. You still feel safe inside of washing Solo was his shields to do his wild tea can
