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Understanding Academic Gaslighting of BIPOC Counselor Educators

Amber Watkins48min

Unknown Speaker

00:00

Music.

Megan Speciale, PhD

00:09

Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started. Hello,

Michael Jones, PhD

00:54

everybody. Want to welcome you back to our next episode of the thoughtful counselor podcast. I am Dr Jones and really excited about being with you here today. Today we have a special guest with us, Dr Tiffany Sutherland. Dr Southerland has over eight years of clinical experience, which includes working in the following settings. She has worked in the University Counseling Centers, mental health agencies, psychiatric hospitals and community based nonprofit organizations. Her research interests include the intersectionality of spirituality and religion and mental health as it pertains to African Americans, counselor education and supervision, psychopharmacology and college counseling. She serves in leadership positions on both the local, state and national level, and she resides in Virginia and currently provides outpatient counseling in her free time. She enjoys spending time with family and friends and traveling and discovering local coffee shops. So Doctor south of I'm just happy to have you on here today.

Unknown Speaker

01:52

Thank you. I appreciate it. Doctor Jones,

Michael Jones, PhD

01:54

well, one of the reasons I want to have you on, you know, I've had a we've always have good, good time when, whenever we get together and talk about anything, but before we kind of get into our formal stuff, I really want to, kind of want to ask you, like, I what I used to do with my guests tonight they come on, is, you know, what was it that was the thing that got your attention and made you want to become a counselor? Because I think for all of us, we have a different path, a plan that got us where we are. So I'm kind of curious on what made you decide to get to the skill of counseling.

Speaker 1

02:23

Yes, it was a journey to get to this point. So when I was in high school, I originally thought I was going to be a school counselor, because I really enjoyed the relationship and just the conversations that I had with my school counselor. And so when I was in college, I started off as a social worker. That was my major, and once I started learning more and more about it, specifically that you go in people's homes and you're dealing with families and friends and potentially taking kids away, I was like, No, this is not for me. So I switched my major to anthropology, and was like, I have no clue what this is, so this definitely is not for me. And I switched to sociology, and then finally I landed on counseling. So I Excuse me, I switched to psychology, and that was because I took a community counseling class my junior year, and I loved it. It was interesting because we kind of did the things that we do now in the grad program, where you pair up with someone, I think we had a triad, and you just kind of role play what it's like to be a counselor. And I was working with a veteran at the time, and it was just me thinking, I'm just having a playing conversation, just sitting with him, like just trying to do this assignment. It really was powerful, because, you know, I talked about where I grew up, and it's super rural. There's still a lot of a lot of racism that exists where I grew up, and so just sharing that with him and him holding it. So I was like, Okay, I like this. So I wanted to pursue being a counselor. Originally, I was going to do human services counseling because my GPA was low. I think what people think, because we have a PhD, we were four point out is in the books. No, I had a 2.2 graduating from an undergrad institution. So I originally was doing Human Services and found out you can do really nothing with that. And then I was able to switch to professional counseling, and it took off from there. That's

Michael Jones, PhD

04:27

awesome. It's also good to know that we both had the same GPA. Oh, goodness.

Unknown Speaker

04:36

It worked out.

Michael Jones, PhD

04:37

It worked out for both. So, no, it's good to hear, to hear, kind of like your your passion for counseling and what, what brought you here, and especially that, the journey of, kind of going through, you know, different degrees and things of that nature. So I'm glad you found your way to counseling, and especially the counselor education. So our topic that we're going to be looking at today, we're going to. Talking about academic gaslighting of bipoc faculty and so no conversations we've had about this before have been very interesting. So I wanted to have you on today to kind of go deeper with that conversation and look at that a little bit. So you know now, for those who are listing everything, and most of them are counts, I think they probably have a good idea of what what gaslighting is, but kind of help us to understand a little bit more what exactly is academic gaslighting?

Speaker 1

05:28

Yes, because it's a term that really doesn't exist in the literature. So academic gaslighting, it still takes the same undertones as gaslighting, right? Where it's that intentional manipulation and, you know, trying to confuse, distort or just change, you know, the way that a person thinks or reacts or responds to things. And it's, you know, coming from a place of trying to harm essentially, or just trying to make this person doubt who they are in their abilities. And it crosses over with academic gaslighting. So I think in our field, it can kind of mirror imposter syndrome. So if you think about all of us having imposter syndrome, feeling like we don't know a lot, that our skill set is just not where it needs to be, which impacts our ability to counsel and teach and etc, academic gaslighting is doing that, but it's intentional. So it's, you know, when the person is the perpetrator, academic gaslighting, it's like, I'm going to say these things or do these things to another Council educator. And my purpose of doing it is, I'm trying to break them down. You know, I want them to think they're not knowledgeable, I want them to think that they are not confident and that they should question really, really whether or not they should be a counselor educator, like if this is the right thing for them to do, or if they should even seek, you know, further promotion or etc. So it's still that intentionality to distort what really is happening and have that person just second guess. And I think with academic gaslighting too, it's like when, when it happens. It's like the person who is a perpetrator, they have an outcome of what they want to happen. Like, if I say this to this person in this way, they're going to quit, you know, they're going to put their notice in. And it's just this intentional way, as a counselor educator, to, you know, put this other person, the victim, in a predicament where they actually start processing and thinking, like, maybe I should quit. And it's like, you actually see it happen. So I think, in a roundabout way, that is what academic gaslighting is.

Michael Jones, PhD

07:43

And it's interesting, as you were bringing it up, you talked about this imposter syndrome, and I know that for many I would just say counselors in general. And I won't even get the counselor education yet, but just just in counselors in general, we I think about bipoc counselors. That's one of the things that we see that them struggling with quite a bit is some that imposter syndrome. So now, if I'm already feeling this from my I'm already feeling this way that I'm not good enough, or where the case may be, and now here I am in an academic setting, I've got somebody kind of echoing that. It's kind of like a double whammy there, because I'm I'm getting it for myself, and also have somebody confirming it for me for like, a better term, that I'm not good enough to do what I'm supposed to be doing. Mm, hmm,

Speaker 1

08:26

exactly. And then it's like, what are you left to do? Other than you know you want to self preserve and self soothe a little bit, and so usually people, they leave the outcome is usually negative for the victim.

Michael Jones, PhD

08:40

Gotcha. Now, one thing I know about this, I know you've done some research specifically on on academic gaslighting with bipoc individuals, or by bipoc Council educators. So I'm kind of curious, what were some of the things you found in that study as you were seeing some of the some of the feedback that were given to you?

Speaker 1

08:59

Yes, so much. So let me just backtrack a little bit and how we got to the study. It was years ago that I was in a conversation with a coworker. We were in a meeting together, and then after the meeting, we just kind of were talking, and we were like, Did that just happen? Like, did that person just say that in the meeting? And my coworker was like, yeah, like, I felt like, you know, they kind of gaslit me a little bit. I was like, oh, academic gaslighting. They academically gaslit you they, what they did was they did it in a way that made sense in this environment and academically. And so you kind of are sitting with it because you feel like, oh, they are right. But when we process it, it's like, no, that is not what happened, and that is not what should have happened. So it got me just thinking about my own journey, and those instances where I excused behavior that happened to me, or where I felt imposter syndrome, and I just chucked it up to you know, I'm a graduate student. Or a doc student. And I was like, Oh, I was academically gaslit too. Like, that's exactly what happened. And so I wanted to know who else has happened to because I know I was not the only one. And so when I dove into the research, I was seeing stuff that was coming up for, you know, nursing, but nothing for counseling. And I'm like, of course, I'm not. We're counselors. We don't gaslight people. That's not what we do. So I just wanted to know who else this has happened to, and specifically people of color, because my instances were all, you know, there was a racial undertone. So I went on a quest, and I threw out my feelers to see who would potentially be open to doing an interview. And it was such a it was so interesting, because I think I went in with the perception that everyone has had instances of being academically gaslit, especially if you're, you know, bipoc. And so I'm thinking like everyone is going to be able to say, Yep, it happened to me. This is the situation. I hated it. And, you know, it was going to be clear cut, but it wasn't. There were, you know, several people that stated, when it happened, they took ownership. It was like, This is my fault, you know, they took the responsibility of the situation, and also, in order to make sense of it ended up kind of like apologizing or trying to fix what happened, even though they were owed an apology. And so a lot of it was people just coming up with the definition of what this is in their own terms, because there's not a concrete definition explaining their experiences with gaslighting. Some people were like, they were talking about a situation, they were like, I didn't even realize that that was gaslighting that I got academically gaslighted as we're doing interviews, and just the the power differential that that happens. So when that person is the perpetrator of academically gaslighting, a lot of folks said it was, you know, people who are higher up, and so there is a huge power differential where I'm stuck, I can't do anything, and then just figuring out, you know, like, what do we need? And a ton of different feelings came up. I mean, probably 25 to 30 different emotions that people identified on negative emotions from those instances. So it was like, we're discovering a phenomenon that has been happening, and now we're putting a name to it. But then it's like, where do we where do we go? What do we do with it? After and

Michael Jones, PhD

12:34

I finally, I find it interesting to some of the people that you interviewed when that gaslighting was going on. Like you said, it sounded like they self corrected, and basically they took on what the other person said, and to say, Oh, hey, yeah, this is my stuff, and I'm just going to fix it. But I'm kind of curious, you know, just these from your perspective, you know, if they are doing that, that self correction, and they're taking in what other people are saying and just going with it and taking on ownership. How do you, how did you? Did they talk much about how they ended up affecting them?

Speaker 1

13:07

Yeah, I think when I looked at those instances that were happening historically, we have to recognize some things there, right? Because, you know, all my participants identified as bipoc and so they have all experienced some form of racism. And so growing up, you know, childhood and up until adulthood, they have become so used to experiencing racism and discrimination. And so you get to a point where you just become desensitized to it, or you just become so checked out because it's happened so much that either you just lose that ability to recognize it, or you just don't want to, because you're just so tired. And so with these instances of academic gaslighting, a lot of them were hitting on like, I'm just tired of it, like it, you know, this is nothing new. This happens to me in my personal life. So you know it's been happening in my professional life. And so I think, you know, those who kind of self corrected, I think, because this is a different environment, the stakes are very high, because this is my job. I need tenure, or, you know, whatever the price point is, you know, working in CES I think that's why some of them self corrected, because they knew that there's no outcome, the outcome that I want, which is being able to tell this person, like, hey, what you did. You kind of gaslit me, and it didn't feel good. Please don't do it again. Like that just seems like an impossible outcome for people because of the environment and the power differential. So I think a lot of people, they just try to make sense of it, and they just sacrifice themselves, because that's what they're used to doing in general.

Michael Jones, PhD

14:44

That's and that's that sounds heavy, because, if I'm it's because there's definitely a balance that I'm hearing that's going on. There's that balance for self preservation of okay, that's the goals I'm trying to reach academically. And so I. But in order for me to do that, some of the people who may be doing some of the gas like they may be the gatekeepers to the place I need to go to. So it's like, like you're saying, so do I do? I say something and get it on out there to so that my feelings are being known, but knowing that comes with the calls. Or do I not? Do I not say anything and I swallow it, but then that there's consequences that come along with that as well. So it's like, it's a it's it's a dangerous balance. It seems like, for people who are experiencing that,

Speaker 1

15:29

oh my goodness, it's so dangerous. Like I can think in my mind right now, when I was in my doc program instance where someone you know, academically gaslit me what they were saying to me, very outwardly racist, and, you know, things that should not have been said, but they, you know, held a certain power over me because they were teaching a course that I needed to move on to dissertation. And so without their stamp of approval, I'm not moving on. We all know we want to, we want to get to this station to get done and get that degree. And so I can just remember, I can remember them saying to me, slavery was not that bad, because slaves could go outside in the fresh air. And my research is built on the black community. It you know, that is so foundational. And so I remember them saying that, and I was like, what slavery was not that bad. Because slave like, no. And I remember leaving the meeting because I went through the meeting, and I remember beating myself up, uh, because I'm like, Why didn't I say something? And then why did I just smile and nod and go through the rest of the meeting like what they said didn't just, you know, infuriate me as a person, and just just being black in my community, and it was just like, because that's what academically that's what academic gaslighting does to you. It makes you freeze because you don't know the power that you have. You really don't know what's happening in the moment. And there's such a risk, because it's like, if I say or do something wrong in this moment, I don't know the outcome, and that outcome could be so heavy that I can't come back from it. So I think that's one of the harder things with academic gaslighting versus emotional gaslighting, right? Because it's like it really is a second by second experience, because it's either you choose in this moment to respond or react or you don't, and almost feels like the moment will pass you by. Because I remember the same person who did this to me did it to another cohort member, and it happened live right in front of me. And when everything happened and the aftermath happened, you know, she was called an angry black woman, and he slammed his fist on the desk, and he said, No, that's who you are. She said, I'm not angry. He said, No, that's that's my that's my perception of you. You're an angry black woman. And so with that being said, it almost makes you sit back and think, like, am I? But when a conversation happened after denial, so then it makes you think, like, did it happen? No, it happened. Like I saw him slam his fist down and say, You're an angry black woman. But maybe he didn't say it all at once, like maybe he said angry five minutes and then later something about being black, I don't know, but that's what academic gaslighting. That's what it does to you. It makes you feel like what happened could have happened, but maybe not in the way that I thought.

Michael Jones, PhD

18:36

And it was interesting how you talked about as you were hearing these things, for lack of better term, it was almost like time kind of stopped, or you where you had a choice, where it's like, okay, I can go to go this direction or this direction, but I don't get that much time to make a choice. And you have to, in that moment, make a decision of okay, doing that cost benefit analysis, okay, is it worth the risk to say something, or should I not say anything at all? And then, like you said, didn't feel like you beat yourself up over it at the end because you didn't say anything. So we're like, it's interesting. There's a it seems like there's a lot of ramifications and consequences that come with this academic gaslighting, when especially for the person that's experiencing it, because either they're going to they accept it, but then, once again, now they have their own internal struggle with it, which definitely, I'm assuming, is going to cause some tension or uneasy feeling with the people, I guess, what they're working for or working with, if that just continues to go on,

Speaker 1

19:35

right? And that's something that came up with the participants was, you know, it cost them personally, and it cost them professionally, you know, experiencing the gaslighting. Because, you know, some folks they, I think it was one person, they stated that the the instance, the gas lighting, instance, happened. It happened in front of several people. And. And their superior, I think a day later, mentioned it, you know, brought up, like, hey, like, I just want to check on you with what happened in that moment. Like, I don't think that was okay. And then it's like, oh, so then you are an observer, because you saw it happen to me in the moment. You knew it was wrong, but you didn't say anything. And so then it's like, once again, now we're in a situation where I already tried to make myself feel better about it, like I just, you know, maybe they're having a bad day. Maybe, you know, I don't know, but I'm just going to be okay with it. But now you have come to me and stated that that did happen. So you confirmed that I was gaslit, and you saw it, but you didn't do anything. So now I have to make you feel okay that you didn't do anything when you saw something wrong going on. So now I'm put in a place where I don't feel safe and I don't feel secure, and that came up a lot in the research, like, there's no protection, there's no safety. Because Who do you go like, really, we have the ACA code of ethics, but who really gatekeeps The Counselor Educators right. It's usually leadership. And a lot of folks are talking about those are the ones who are doing the gaslighting. They're the ones enacting it. And then the one participant was saying, like, I wonder if that's because they have a level of protection that I don't you know. He says she should, like, of course, you know they're going to be protected before I am. So it was sad to see like half of the folks that were interviewed were really on that cusp of, do I want to stay in a field that is meant to help and meant to heal, but yet it's hurting me so much, or do I just I leave and think there's been, you know, several people that have left, and I wonder if that is one of the reasons why, you know, because it's just too many, one too many times where they've been in that situation where they're academically gaslit

Michael Jones, PhD

21:55

and and I appreciate you the examples you're bringing up, too, because it's not just happening at The accounts education level is happening, you know, at the doctorate level, it's happened at the master's level too, for for students. And I agree with you, because there is that power differential that is there. Some people may have a different viewpoint on the field once they get into it, like, well, I may, I may be working on my master's, but I may not. I may not go into this or finish this degree up because it doesn't feel like it fits for me, or same thing with the doc degree, or even getting the counselor education. I know several personally of bipoc individuals who have their PhDs, and they're not, they're not teaching. They're they're doing things that are, I would say, mental health adjacent, but they're not really in academics anymore, and and once again, this people I was talking to, it wasn't from a study, but was more just kind of a personal conversation, and it really echoes a lot of stuff that you're saying here, that why? Why stay if I'm going to have to fight to stay when it doesn't feel like I'm wanted, and the stuff I'm saying is being validated all the time. So yeah, maybe a lot more broad than we know,

Speaker 1

23:04

so much more, right? Because, like you just mentioned, you know, we were talking more so, you know, Counselor Educators, but then you have students who are the ones doing the gaslighting towards faculty. And when we talk about bipoc, counsel educators, like that is so it's so dangerous. And I think there were a couple of participants who talked about, like, I'm getting it at every angle, you know, I'm getting it from colleagues, and then I'm getting it from students. And so you're really being pushed against the wall because you have, you have nowhere to go, and you just feel like I really am second guessing, like, maybe it's me, it's the way that I'm coming across. It's my delivery. Maybe I'm being aggressive, you know, because that word gets slapped around a lot when it comes to black folks, right? Maybe I'm being angry, you know, because I'm passionate. That comes across as being a certain way. And then also, we just have to be real with it being looked at because we're black, that we're not educated, and so, you know, we come into a classroom and you know students are second guessing our credibility and sees that moment and opportunity to try to make us look bad or embarrass us. And it's like, Where, where is that coming from? Like, what is the intent behind doing something like that? When our purpose is to help, it's to educate. So I know that that is a huge issue where you know who, who is the person, or who is the entity that is responsible for assessing these things and making sure there's some type of standard, there's some type of action, because Dei, that's great. You know, that's fun, but dei is getting slapped around everywhere, and it just looks like it's a stamp of approval for universities, saying We believe in it. But do you really behind closed doors? So I think academic gaslighting. It's such it's it's so broad and. That the umbrella just goes everywhere because it just it, like you said, it sprinkles outside of being in that counselor education role and being, you know, with students supervising and being in the the counseling room. Yeah.

Michael Jones, PhD

25:18

Now here it's from the study you had. Were there, were there specific like instances they talked about, or specific feelings they felt like they were feeling as they were, they were going through some that academic gaslighting, yeah.

Speaker 1

25:30

So some things that came up was a theme of feeling that as black faculty being held to a different standard. And so could be, you know, in the same position, doing the same thing, but a faculty member who is of the dominant race getting paid more, getting more opportunity, and then black faculty felt like, well, when we ask, you know, for feedback or just trying to, you know, progress or promote ourselves. The answer is, like, no. Like, you know, just, just stay doing what you're doing. You know, just stay right here. It's like, so I'm just being shut glass ceiling, like, shut down, right? Some also talked about white supremacy disorder, and so this was something that I really hadn't heard a lot about but just talking about feeling like they are more. So just a diversity hire, and so you don't really want me, it's just more so you need me. And so highlighting more of that, just feeling minoritized and just feeling unseen, unheard, and you don't want to see me and you don't want to hear me, you just want that to be seen on like a krep, a self assessment, or, you know, marketing. But a lot of the emotions came up where, you know, folks just feeling really sad and disappointed in our field, because, again, we look at the undertone of counseling, you know, humanistic, right? We're here to really uplift. And a lot of folks felt devalued. Some folks said they felt like nothing, like they felt like who they are was just stripped away from them, and that they were just worthless. Because, like, if you you your superior doesn't believe in you, like, Why? Why would you a lot of folks felt very angry. And I think some of that anger is where the cusp of leaving or staying goes. Some folks felt surprised. Some folks talk well. One person talked about, even though racism and race lighting, because that's a term, you know too, that this is something I deal with frequently in my personal life, it's just surprising that I still have to deal with this. On this end, as a tenured professor, I did my time. I had my battle wounds and my scars, and I'm still in spaces where I'm dealing with academic gas signing. A lot of people said they felt fearful because they felt like an instance of academic gaslighting, especially those who facial response kind of like, you know, when stuff happens, you know, sometimes you can't fix your face right, or you just get quiet. And it was like, I they just knew that they were responding to what had happened, and others around them noticed it, and so they felt like, I I'm not safe anymore. I haven't found out I'm vulnerable. And so just like, is there going to be a punishment? How do I protect myself? And then we had, like, a complex category, because there were just some emotions that were just all over the place. Like some people said, they felt like they were going to have panic attack. Some people felt very cynical about the field. Some people felt incompetent. And so a lot of the emotions and feelings that people were echoing, it was sad, because it just they just gave up on themselves in that moment. And so yeah, a lot of feelings and a lot of different reactions.

Michael Jones, PhD

29:09

And as I'm hearing you talk about all these different feelings that people are experiencing, there's a to me, there's really a weird conflict, I guess, internal conflict are they're going through. Because I know as counsel educators, one of our one of the big things we work on, especially with our students, we want to make sure we're providing an environment where our students do feel safe, and provide an environment where our students feel like they can have a voice and things that nature and so I can imagine it being very frustrating knowing that you're doing that as a counselor educator, but you're not actually provided the exact same accommodation that you're providing for everybody else. So it's like, I can provide safety for everybody else, but in the midst of everybody else's safety, I don't have my own and so so and then the question goes, who, where do you go after? Right? Yeah. Yeah,

Speaker 1

30:01

and I think too, it's like, when you think about gaslighting, as a counselor, we help our clients in the counseling room with like, Oh, that was gaslighting. Like, you should speak up for yourself. Or these are the things we're going to things that you do. You know, we try to empower people to respond to it in a way that, like this doesn't affect you, or it doesn't happen again, or you can recognize it, but then it's like in the same breath for us, especially as bipoc faculty, we can't take those same principles. We that that does not apply here. And I think that's the issue with you know, this experience is bipoc faculty. We don't have any power, right when the academic gas fighting happens, and it's just there is no clear cut response that we can we can give or, you know, there's no perfect thing we can say to say to someone like, hey, like, what you did. I didn't like it. It made me feel this way. I don't want this to become a thing. I just want you to know it so you don't do it to someone else. But we can't do that right, because as faculty, it just takes one thing for you to say wrong, or for you to do wrong, to be brandished as you know, unworkable or difficult, and then there goes your career. So it's, it's so it's just so much risk and so much feeling of control being taken away. Because we don't ask for this to happen to us, right? Like nobody is going around asking and waving a flag, like, Hey, me, pick me. I want to be academically gaslit. And so it's like, I didn't ask for the situation to happen, but now I'm being forced to respond in a way that either I have to sacrifice myself and my integrity and continue to just keep my mouth shut, put my head down and work, or I have to stand up for myself, and that is potentially going to just ruin my career. And so that also, like some some folks you know, kind of went on a tangent with it, but they also talked about, like, not saying anything. It just seems so much worse than saying something, because I have other people who are looking at me like you said. It happens to students. It happens to Doc and master students, and people who are in my class and see that I'm being academically gaslit by student, and I don't say anything like, what am I teaching them? Am I teaching them that when that happens to just, you know, close your mouth and just keep going. So it's it's such a hard place to be in as a bipoc faculty member, because it's just so much riding on that one way we respond that's just not going to affect you. It affects, you know, a lot of others too,

Michael Jones, PhD

32:48

yeah. And also, kind of going back to some of that, that power balance you talked about, too, I think the intimidating piece about some of this can be as well. And when you think about bipoc faculty, there usually aren't a lot at a at a university. So if no, let's just say, for instance, we look looking at a counseling program, and there may be two or three on your faculty student, then it's like, okay, for like, a better term, there's not really a place to go with that, because there's not a lot of people to be able to be able to to through those things with, you know? So I think there's some schools that may that situation may be a little bit more simpler, but I think in general, I've seen, I've just seen a lot of schools where we, they do have bipoc faculty there, but, you know, you may have one, two maximum on the entire faculty. So it's like, when, when you have situations like that, it's like those individuals don't really have a place to go and say anything, because they don't, they're not already, not well represented and and especially if other people are watching, and there's and they're singing going on and they're not saying anything either, that becomes, I think that makes the situation a lot more difficult. So, yeah, so I guess, I'm guessing, I'm guess, I'm curious, and just from the research y'all did, and would, would you say that it would be a good thing to try to bring in, I guess, allies, allies of those people who are the ones who are watching and not saying anything, or how, I mean, how, what's really some suggestion, suggestion on dealing with that. Yeah,

Speaker 1

34:19

it's funny, because when you were saying, you know, when there's only a couple of black faculty in a program, I remember my grandma long ago. My grandma's 90 years old, so that gives you context of the times she grew up in. She would always say, Do not be in a group of one or two black people, because that's when people get scared. And so it's like, even that kind of, that mindset is always stuck with me, because it's like, you know, once you start to gather together, and it looks like, you know, more and more of you are together, it seems not safe. It seems like a threat. And so even in the some of those programs, you know, where some faculty talked about, like, I don't know if this person is safe. Even though they're brown and they look similar to me, but I also don't know the environment, right? Like I don't. I don't know if that would even be welcome to try to come together. So it just made me think about that. But one of the number one things that people said is I need an apology. I need a genuine, authentic, I'm sorry. Don't tell me that you're sorry. I feel this way. Tell me you're sorry and identify what you did. But outside of that, a lot of people said, like, through allyship, and the key word was true. Like, I know we have, you know, research, and we have great things that are happening in terms of allyship, but a lot of folks you know talked about they need to really sit down and listen to my experiences of academic gaslighting, but they also need to identify if they've done this to other people, regardless of race, because you can't be an ally if you don't recognize the heart the harm and the hurt that you've done too. And so a lot of folks talked about that allyship, what it could look like. And people you know don't, they don't want people reading white fragility Right. Like, we want true things being done, and for those who are going to be allies to really embrace it 100% like, know that you're taking on a risk too, because when you speak up, you're speaking up in front of others. We don't want you speaking up behind closed doors, because that's what allyship and support is. And also just doing more research too, because some folks talk about, I don't have as a bipoc, I don't have the privilege, I don't have the power and the experience of being white. I don't have that. And so for others to be able to really hone in on that, like you teach the multicultural class, not me, you know, you do this with me, or you talk about racism instead of me having to do that. And so that's one way that people talked about it, but a lot of people talked about cultural sensitivity and the true definition of what that is and what that looks like, and that programs cannot preach being multiculturally sensitive until that is reflected and replicated within their faculty team. So it's small things that people identified. A couple people said nothing. A couple of people said there's, there's nothing I need. Because it I think those are the people that just felt so hopeless that this is something that is going to continue. And so what is the point of me hoping for an outcome that's never going to happen because it hasn't yet. So I think there was just varying degrees. And I also think it varied based on how people, how long people have been in the field. Gotcha.

Michael Jones, PhD

37:50

So with the study that you did, you know, if you were to kind of go back and do it again or even even expand on it, what do you what do you see yourself going with with this information? I mean, it's, obviously, it's good information. It's good to hear. Okay, are people being affected by it? But what do you what do you see going with this? Like, I guess it's a next step,

Speaker 1

38:09

yeah, so eventually doing a comparative analysis based on race and ethnicity, because I do think that there is a difference there, expanding academic gaslighting. So we looked at bipoc, but we want to be more specific and look at CES faculty's experience with white students, looking at experiences of academic gaslighting with other white faculty, and then also experiences of black faculty with other black faculty, because we're not immune to doing it, either. So I think just trying to get more conversation happening around it, promoting it, so that people know that this is a thing and this is an experience, and you can acknowledge it and be validated. So yeah, we want to, want to hone in a little bit more. I think we got really good information on a broad level, but I think now we need to be a little bit more specific, because some of those contextual factors make a huge difference on how it's experienced.

Michael Jones, PhD

39:13

And I'm glad that you're looking at expanding out quite a bit and looking at different backgrounds of people who are doing, because I will agree with you, and I want to get too specific, but yeah, there are, there are. There have been cases where you talk about just academic, gas fighting, and then sometimes it looks it's from people who look just like me. And so once again, kind of it throws things off quite a bit, and it does make you start question, okay, who can you trust? Because, if, if, because, sometime, I think maybe one of them say it's easier, but sometime it may be easier to deal with it when you say, okay, this person looks different from me, and so I kind of got an understanding of that. But when that person looks just like you, and they're doing it too,

Unknown Speaker

39:56

oh yeah,

Michael Jones, PhD

39:57

it that? That kind of hits you. And. Kind of in a different way I would believe,

Speaker 1

40:02

Oh yeah, it hurts deeper, because it's like, you know better, you know you, you, you've gone through some stuff too. So why would you do that? To me, it's, it's so unexpected, but yeah, it happens, and I think that's something that we have to acknowledge and we have to talk about because we can't be, you know, experiencing it, you know, in every single corner, by every single person, but we also have to acknowledge and talk about it. I think with the bipoc community, I think that's one of the hardest things, is we don't think that we hurt each other and we're not capable of doing it, but we do, and so, yeah, I think you're right. It cuts way deeper, because we can make sense for other people. We can make excuses, but it's like, no, like, come on, Sis, why Come on, brother?

Michael Jones, PhD

40:54

I recognize, recognize the struggle. Like, it's like, because there, there are a lot of hurdles I I've seen personally that bipoc counsel educators are going through just to get to the place where they are, whether it's them getting a job, and my thing is getting a job and and how difficult that process can be. But then once you're inside of a system at a university, some of the politics and things that nature that is going on, and then also, like, like I said, deal with the academic gaslighting stuff. You're trying to maneuver through all of that. But then when you're doing it, when you're getting it from somebody who looks just like you, that that does kind of quit, but you question a lot more things at that point. So I'm glad that that research will be looking at that as well. Yes, so for the counselors that are out there, you know, listening to this now, whether they're in people are in counsel, education or during counseling, what are you what would, I guess, what would be some good reminders for them to to help them, as if, if they either feel like they are been, have dealt with academic gaslighting, or maybe they've been one who has Been doing the academic ass, like, what is, I guess, what is some good advice can we give right now for that,

Speaker 1

42:07

don't do it. I think, I think for those who have done it, we're all people. We're human, right? We make mistakes. We make you know we do some Oopsies. You've got to be humble, and you've got to be accountable and responsible as a human being, and just fess up when you mess up, right? Like I'm sorry. I don't know why. I'm sorry is one of the hardest words for people to say and to let come out of their mouth, but it's like, as a genuine human sorry like that. It doesn't hurt me to apologize to someone when I've actually done them wrong. So I think as counselors, because you know, you got the counts, I had one, so you should be able to say sorry. You gotta acknowledge that you did something, and you have to apologize for it. And how can you move on from there? Everything is a learning experience. So whether you know that person accepts the apology or not, you still have to take accountability and responsibility. I think that would be the first thing. If you're the person who has done the academic gaslighting, and I think if you're receiving it, that one's a bit harder, right? Because it's kind of like all of the research we've been we've been talking about that's the struggle is people don't know what to do after so I think my best advice I would give people is you have to have, like, your personal life, self care tip top, because academic asthma is not going to stop, is going to keep happening. And so you need to have balance in other areas of your life and other areas that will pour into you, so you can make a sound decision on like, if this is the fifth time this person has done this, then you can make that decision whether or not you want to respond to it and acknowledge that that person did that, and let them know, or you know if you don't, if you don't want to acknowledge it in that moment and be okay with it. There's no shame, there's no guilt. Nobody can can judge you or tell you how you should respond. So I think it's it's a bit harder to really give a clear cut answer, and that's what I hope my research does, is it kind of provides like a this is what we need to do when this happens. But I would say that I just want people to not feel any shame or guilt for how they respond or for how they self soothe or try to make sense of it, because even I, in moments, still struggle. Like, wait, are they right? Like, no, they're not right. The girl don't know. So it's, it's something that all of us deal with.

Michael Jones, PhD

44:53

Yeah, and I would just say no, as counsel educators, we realize the difficult. The of the of the tasks that we have in front of us. You know, we are hitting KPIs. We are we are dealing with krep and making sure that we are hitting all the standards and things when it comes to that. And so there's so much when it comes to student engagement that we're already dealing with, between the grading and all the you know, you understand all the Counselor Educators, education stuff that we do, but it's like when you're dealing with all those things, which is the normal part of the process, but now you have extra stuff you have to deal with. We're worrying about, Hey, am I going to make this this next promotion from assistant to associate, or whatever the case may be for someone? Or am I going to get tenure? Or, you know, I just said something in a meeting, and it was dismissed, and literally, somebody else said the exact same thing two minutes ago, two minutes after and now all this stuff is a miraculous answer that someone come up to the idea those things are going to happen. So it's like knowing how to navigate that and recognize it for what it is. I think that's going to be very helpful. So this is this has been good. I really appreciate you coming on and and giving us a little bit better aspect on what your research has done, and especially kind of getting us out to us to kind of give us something to think about. And I really feel like this is more of a call to action for us, not only as counselors, but also as counsel educators, but also in academic to to be be more mindful of how we are coming across other people. So really appreciate you bringing your research out and talking to us about today, and when you do some more, I would love to have you back again and see,

Speaker 1

46:37

yes, I absolutely would love to this research is near and dear to me because it's personal and professional. So I appreciate you giving me the space and, you know, letting me talk about what it is and kind of like, you know, this is a, this is a growing process, because we're still in the thick of, like, where do we go from here? But yes, I hope that someone can take just one thing away from it, which is, it's funny, you said, you know that process towards tenure and promotion, like there's some things that are a normal experience. Well, academic gaslighting is not a normal experience. It shouldn't happen. It's not okay. And for people to just be able to have now a name to what it is that's been happening. So I look forward to being back well.

Michael Jones, PhD

47:23

Thank you so much. Dr southern. I really appreciate you personally and and, and also just the research you're doing and looking forward to having back again at some other time. And thank you everybody for listening in and see you on another episode of the pistoco Cancer podcast.

Megan Speciale, PhD

47:42

You thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor. Today, we hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept, as always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe. You.

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