energetically, when women engage in more feminine communication, including a marketing it's more effective. When men engage in more masculine communication, their marketing is more effective.
Hello, and welcome to the Business of Architecture UK, I am your host, Ryan Willard. And today I had the fabulous pleasure of speaking with my dear friend, Jamie Sarah, who is the founder of definitely definitely and the creator of the aligned business blueprint and the author of the six types of content to captivate and convert. So Jamie, she's been on the show a few years ago now. And really what she does is help service based experts and professionals and service companies to attract, convert and retain more high caliber clients and do this with the utmost of integrity. And the way that Jamie approaches this is very much like Business of Architecture as a holistic approach. And she helps them become much more deeply aligned with their brand messaging, their offerings, and actually use their energy. And when we use the word energy, we're talking about a blend of psychology and marketing expertise which Jamie has honed over the last 20 plus years to really create messaging that attracts the ideal type of clientele that you're looking for in your business. Jamie is the host of the Jamie Sarah Show podcast, she has been featured in Forbes Thrive global, the Express and many more. She was named executive coach of the year in the UK for three years running. And in this conversation, we go deep, some perhaps controversial ideas. I'm very interested to hear your take on some of this, but nonetheless very fascinating and very powerful. We talk about gender energies in selling and marketing, communication. And what happens when those don't align with the brand and the image that you're portraying. How to harness we speak about how to harness your messaging to repel needy nightmare clients and to attract those heavenly ones. And we also look at the effective and ethical use of polarity of creating polarity creating tension in your messaging. So sit back, relax and enjoy Jamie Sarah. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com. Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how I might be able to help you please follow the link in the information. Jamie, Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
I'm really good. Thank you. I'm excited to be here with you again, after I
know, it's been a little while 2018 2019 Last time you were on the show. But you're a dear friend, we've known each other for a long time. And it's always an absolute pleasure to be able to spend time with you and pick your brain about all the enormous amount of marketing expertise and coaching expertise that you have. You run your own business you your you've got marketing at your very core. And also like performance coaching and you work with a lot of high net worth entrepreneurs, helping them take their businesses to the next level. And you've had a real kind of very impressive resume and Cv of of experience of helping businesses go from good to great, even better. So very excited to be sitting with you and discussing a very interesting topic kind of picking into some of your marketing prowess here. And talking about polarity in messaging. So don't don't do you need to do you want to explain a little bit in your own words what it is that you do? And then we can jump into that topic?
Yeah, for sure. So I'm an executive coach and marketing consultant. So like you said, I coach entrepreneurs on their performance, which includes their mindset includes how they're showing up for their clients, how they're engaging with any challenges, how they're communicating in difficult circumstances, things like not avoiding difficult conversations, having them head on and knowing exactly what to say. So my marketing expertise actually comes in really, really handy because marketing is all about how to express and articulate what you want to express and articulate clearly. My marketing expertise actually comes in really handy with helping clients navigate difficult conversations as well because it's the exact same thing. It's knowing how to communicate clearly what you want to communicate in a way that's going to land with who personally wanting to communicate with the company that you want you to come in.
So interesting that you that you say that that the you know the sales process or the kind of conversation or aspect of this Selling conversation. And by by extension, the marketing conversation that precedes it, you know, that is a leadership conversation for influencing outcomes, and is, you know, it is useful everywhere, not everywhere in your business with your team, you know, even with intimate relationships, and I know, you know, both of us when we were trained in our personal development programs that we did together, you know, again, that kind of idea of the power of of conversation, both in a sales context, marketing context and leadership context, now, they are one in the same that's, that's a really, that's a very deep insight.
Definitely. And I think also, you know, when we look at your brand, and you know, the other pieces is directly helping clients with their marketing with their sales process, making sure that everything's really clearly articulated. Things like your onboarding process are clear, your messaging is really clear. You're, each of your individual offerings or packages are clearly defined, clearly differentiated, there's clear boundaries around them. And it's really, really important. And it really helps to preserve your sanity as a business owner, but also, when everything's really clear for your customers, massively enhances the brand experience, which means we're likely to stay around for longer, they're likely to make referrals, they're likely to become raving fans, they'll leave great reviews, all these kinds of things that impact the longevity of your brand.
So before we go into, like, what polarity is in messaging, and the other extension of that conversation, what what are some of the problems then that you see a lot of business owners facing and I'm sure like a lot of architectural audience are going to be able to relate to, to some of these when when someone when you first start working with the, with the company, what what some of the issues that you'll see they have with their existing brand and their existing message that they're putting out to the world.
One of the biggest things is that normally, they're overcomplicating how they talk about what they do. Right? So they're using overly technical language, or they're using their language versus their ideal clients language, are they providing too much information, they don't have a clear and concise elevator pitch, that speaks to the hearts minds and souls of their ideal client. And that's, that's the biggest thing. Also, often, they're not making it easy enough for people to pay them. Alright, it's really important to make it as easy as possible for the right people. And that's an important caveat, the right people to pay you. Things like payment links, whether it's payment links for passive products, right? Not everything needs to involve you for anything that doesn't involve your lifetime and effort. Why would you not have, you know, immediate payment links for people to buy. They also often, when people start working with me, their offerings are much narrower. So they'll have, you know, one to one or trading time for money type offerings. And they don't have passive products, they don't have scalable products, they don't have scalable offerings. And whatever your business is, there is a way to create passive products and scalable products, scalable offerings, where you can be impacting many different potential customers at once. Of course, if you're impacting many at once, it's not going to be the same as any kind of one to one offering, or any kind of directly trading time for money offering. But that doesn't mean that it can't be really, really impactful. And it can't deeply serve those people. And so often, as well, there's a little bit of mindset stuff where it's like, you know, but I don't want to launch a passive product. Because if I do that, people aren't going to get what they need, like, I can't turn my expertise into a passive product, they people need me, right, which is sometimes it's a combination of ego. And just fear of the unknown. Yeah. And so I will help them design a value ladder, marketing a value ladder, where people can buy something from your company, wherever they're at, starting with, so my cheapest most accessible product is my book. So that goes at the bottom of my value ladder. And then, with each step, they're investing more, they're getting more, but wherever they're at, there's going to be something for them. And that means that you can help a wider segment of the market while still being very, very clear who your target audience is. You can help a wider segment, including those who are not quite ready for the highest level thing yet. But they still want to be educated. They still want to be informed. They still want to learn from you. They still want to start the journey with you, and they don't want it To be all or nothing. It's very frustrating as an entrepreneur, when what you have to offer is an all or nothing scenario,
right? So it's just It's just big ticket high ticket items, there's no kind of, there's no sort of courting period, if you like. Yeah,
yeah, I mean, you put that beautifully, there's no courting period. And actually courting is nice for everyone. Because then by the time people come to invest in your highest ticket things, which they'll always be an occasional unicorn who just wants to go from, I just met you, too, I want your highest level thing. I want you to build me like a 10 million pound house. I want you to do the designs for the 10 million pound house. But that's rare. Most people, they want to go on a journey with you, and it's a win win for everyone.
That's a lovely way of putting it and actually going on a journey with somebody. And in most definitely, you know, we see this in the architecture industry where there's this kind of, if we imagine it like a triangle, at the very tip of the triangle, maybe there's three 5% of clients who are actually ready to purchase a high ticket offer, now with, you know, for an architectural services, a full package of architectural services for this 10 million pound house, for example. But underneath that, there's people who are interested or thinking about a new home or they don't know how to start. And then beneath that, there's people who have who've got Pinterest boards and to kind of fantasy but they have the means and you want to be able to kind of communicate with the know that 90% Really that's beneath the top tip. So that that as you say, you can go on a journey with them.
Exactly. And also one of the benefits as well is that then when people are engaging with your higher level offers, and your higher level services, they're more educated, they're more informed. They're not asking stupid questions. Yeah. Which can be really frustrating for you. Absolutely, absolutely. So it helps you avoid that as well.
So with with a kind of lack of clarity in in messaging, and, you know, kind of an over dependence on technical parlance, if you like, what, you know that. So that's some of the kind of things we see the businesses doing, what does that do to their actual quality of, you know, quality of experience in their own businesses for themselves and for their clients can massively
it can massively impact your confidence as business owner, because clarity equals confidence, lack of clarity equals insecurity? Right. So if your value proposition, if your elevator pitch, if your messaging is overly complicated, or not clear enough, not concise enough, you are more likely to feel like an imposter, you're more likely to feel like you don't deserve the kind of clients that you really, really want to work with and want to attract. And you're more likely to discount, you're more likely to not have healthy boundaries when it comes to clients being ridiculous, which everyone has clients being ridiculous at times, right. It's just, it's an inevitability, there's ways to reduce the risk of it, reduce the incidence of it, so that it becomes you know, a very occasional thing. But I don't know a single business owner who hasn't had a client being ridiculous at some point during their business journey. But you're less likely to deal with those kinds of situations powerfully, because you don't feel a secure in yourself, you don't feel a solid in yourself. And you almost end up feeling like you've won the lottery when someone becomes a client. Yeah, like, you're the one that's the privileged one. Versus understanding. When you're really solid in your messaging, and you're really solid in your brand. You understand it's a win win for both. Yeah. So they're lucky to get to work with you to get to leverage your expertise, to get to get to where they want to go more easily with more certainty with more security with more conviction because they're leveraging your expertise. And you're lucky because you get to serve them and it's a pleasure and a privilege to get to serve the right clients. So it does have a big impact.
Wow. I mean, that's I love where you've, you've described that, you know, this kind of insecurity of actually working with a client where, you know, this, this seesaw, if you like the roller coaster of emotion that goes with, you know, it's kind of neediness and insecurity and not feeling worthy or deserving and also the kind of conflict of wanting that sort of project and all these sorts of clients to be working with And then finally getting into a conversation with them. And, you know, then doing the dog and pony show to try and impress and, you know, it's the sort of, if you use the dating analogy, it's like a guy trying to, you know, shower you with gifts and take you for dinner or with some unrealistic expectation of getting married in the next couple of weeks or whatever. Yeah, it's, it doesn't, it doesn't work. And it weirds the other person out, there's a sort of energetic imbalance, if you like, and exactly how we see this kind of happen all the time. And then as you're saying, actually winning a client like that, then you're still feeling unworthy. And then now you're vulnerable to, you know, you're going to jump to every single hoop, and you know, which doesn't serve you. And if it doesn't serve us, I'm going to serve the client.
Absolutely. And actually, it's a really easy way to attract quite narcissistic clients as well, who will just want to take advantage, because the kind of people who see that vulnerability and go, Oh, I see that vulnerability and I want it, I like that that person feels weak. I want to, I want them to serve me because I know that if they're weak, they're easier to manipulate. Right? You're much more likely to attract narcissistic clients who will just treat you like rubbish as well. So whereas whereas like you said, like healthy people? Just go, Whoa, you're trying too hard. I don't like this. I'm off, right? Yeah. But narcissists are like, Yes. Give me
great. Okay, so avoiding narcissistic clients. I mean, that's this, this is fascinating already, you know that the power of our messaging, or the lack of power in our messaging, actually leaves us vulnerable for people who, you know, maybe they're not conscious of doing it, but they're the kind of person who are unconsciously which is probably even worse, if you're like, you know, taking advantage of, of you and wanting to manipulate you. And our own messaging is, is attracting them. Right, got it. Okay, what's the what's the kind of desired solution then or the desired outcome? What kind of messaging do we want to have? Or what what's the outcomes that we want to have from the right kind of messaging? And then we can talk about the actual principles behind how to create that?
Yeah, yeah, we want to have messaging that's clear, that's concise, that speaks to your absolute ideal clients, doesn't just speak to the average person, right? There's this very, very, very common fear amongst business owners. I even went through it myself, I've helped many, many clients work through this fear in terms of their own mindset. There's a fear that if you speak, and zero in on your exact ideal client, you're narrowing your options, and that you're hardly going to get any leads, you're going to hardly get any interest, because you're being too specific. Now, I'm sure there are examples that exist, where that is possible. Like if you said that you were selling potatoes, your li to people with a vitamin D deficiency, who lived on jolly Road in Peterborough?
Right, then you might have a problem. Quite quickly.
We want to strike the balance. Well, yeah. But in the most part, when you really zero, I'm so pleased that that tickled you so much.
I'm gonna use that myself. Very good.
So but in the most part, when you really zero in on your ideal client, okay, what kind of projects do they want to create? What kind of value range do they have? What are their values? Like? What's important to them? In terms of the project, are they you know, people who really value simple, functional, minimalist projects, for example, right? What actually happens is that your ideal clients see that and go, Oh my gosh, this is exactly what I want. I want someone who specializes or I want a firm that specializes in this in this size of project this type of project with this kind of aesthetic. So this is this is absolutely my person I need to get on the phone with him or her straightaway and have a conversation about my specific project. And yes, there's there's very natural fear that comes up around that. But it is normally as long as you're doing it, and you're doing it well, and you're consistent with the messaging, it will be incredibly fruitful for
you. So I'm going to assume then as well, that a complete absence of messaging because a lot of architects, for example, they're gonna, you know, they will, they will run their business with very little marketing and sales. Pictures, right? Yeah. Well, yeah, just pictures and, and or not very much active prospecting, or business development. And it just all happens as referrals. And then you'll hear the common dictum in architecture, where people will say, well, we just focus on doing great work, and then, you know, that's how it's okay, fair enough. That's, that is the most base level of marketing you can do is just not fucking up a job. All right, fair enough. Yeah. Okay. But it's not that that's like in the absence of actually putting out a message. You're only ever going to attract what more of what you've already got. And if it's not what you already want, then that's a problem. And so I'm assuming then if just a complete absence of messaging is also going to leave us vulnerable to attracting these kinds of narcissistic manipulative kinds of clients and leads,
or just plain wrong fit clients, right? Worst case scenario is that they're narcissistic, manipulative, horrible to work with, don't pay, don't pay on time, constantly complain, but while also giving you ambiguous instructions, on committed to giving you the information that you need, right, that's like worst case scenario. And then there's a whole spectrum of other painful and annoying scenarios that can be encountered that can be avoided through getting your messaging right through getting your onboarding, right. And you spoke to their customer service, and customer service is great. And customer service is an important part of your brand. And having good customer service will absolutely elevate and reinforce your brand. But it's never ever a substitute for marketing. Marketing is a proactive activity, of clarifying your proposition, making it clear who you're for, and continually creating pieces of content and lead generating activity that brings and magnetizes people in versus sitting there passively going, Okay, well, we're gonna focus on great customer service, and they're just going to come that's not how it works. Yes, as you said, people will still make referrals. But just because somebody is a good client, doesn't mean they'll make a good referral. And if your messaging is ambiguous, potentially, you're gonna have clients making referrals. Who aren't people you want to work with. But then because they've come from the client that you've got that you like, that you want to hold on to? You're like, Okay, well, I'll help your friend Billy, who wants to build a shed in his garden? Because you don't want to upset your client. But you don't follow the building architectural plans for somebody shared like, that's not your thing. Yeah, yeah. So you also, one of the things that I help people with as well is making sure that you are really clear with your existing clients what a good referral looks like. So you send regular communications to your clients, this can be on the phone, this can be via email, I recommend that it's not automated. Because automated stuff in general, just, you know, if it's an existing relationship, it can be repelling. But, you know, letting your current clients know, hey, do you know someone who is looking to achieve X, you know, who has a project of this size, they're looking to achieve X? If you make a referral, and they become a client, we would love to give you why. Right? So you always want to incentivize it could be, we'd love to give you a Fortnum and Mason hamper. It could be we'd love to take you out for dinner at the shard or it could be a credit against future services with you, whatever it is, but when you send that clear communication to existing clients, they that's when they will make great referrals. And you won't get any referrals for sheds for Billy.
Love it. Love it. Oh, so So really what we're looking at is that having very clear messaging leads to an extraordinary level of confidence in who it is that you that you want, and you're and you know who you are in the world. We're starting to attract the right fit clients, the ones that we want the ones who are going to pay on time, the ones who have been bringing us the best types of caliber projects and And overall, everything else in the business is going to start to improve. And we get that part. Correct. So, so let's look at some of the kind of ideas here about what creates strong, clear messaging. And the idea that we were kind of discussing at the very outset is, is polarity. So what is polarity in messaging?
Yeah, so polarity is really interesting. I started studying it actively last year. And I started studying, you know, polarized communication. And polarized communication is basically as women communicating in a feminine way, and men communicating in a masculine way. Oh, and so how I apply this to personal brands, right, this applies a little bit less to corporate brands, right? If you've got a massive firm, so a little bit less applicable, with massive firms are naturally going to lean towards very masculine communication with a smaller firm. If your firm is run by a woman, and this has absolutely I want to be absolutely clear, this has nothing to do with sexism. Absolutely nothing to do with sexism, men and women are perfectly equal. It's just literally acknowledging energetically, that on an energetic level, women tend to resonate more from a marketing perspective, when they use feminine communication, which includes feminine messaging. And men tend to resonate and magnetize more readily when they use masculine communication. So that's what
So what So so how are we going to define feminine and masculine? What are these what are these terms mean?
So feminine, is more light, more loving, more playful, more joyful, more flowing. And so this can be represented in your brand imagery, right for your brand design, any brand photography, if you've got an about page where you've got, you know, a bio and pictures of you, you don't want to be you and your woman, you don't want to be sat there with your arms crossed, right? Wearing a suit, you want to have a picture of, of, for example, you as a woman wearing a lovely flowing dress in nature, for example, right? Smile. That's a very rudimentary example. But also in your in your messaging and in your content. They'll just be subtle differences in how you communicate. And this also translates to the sales process as well. So things like being a bit more permissive. So one of the changes that I made in my brand last year, is, instead of just putting out posts, where I said, Do this, I would say, someone needs to hear this today. Right. So there's not an underlying assumption that I'm giving them and giving everyone an instruction. Someone needs to hear this today. And then it's a thing that they might want to consider. So let me give you an architectural example, to really bring this to life. Someone needs to hear this today. If you hire the wrong architect, it can make or break your project. If you want to hire an architect you can rely on I invite you to send me a message. That's feminine communication. Right? Because it's a bit softer, you're inviting. You're not making sort of universal sweeping statements, you're not coming across in a you're coming across as authoritative, without coming across as dominant. And that will tend to be more magnetic as a woman. If a woman on the other hand posted, if you hire the wrong architect for your project, you're screwed. Send me a message if you want to hire the right architect. For very macho man, he can get away with that. Because that's a masculine form of communication and he is a masculine being. Right? If a woman says that people are going to be like, I'm off, right delete by by because they get triggered. So again, this is this has nothing to do with sex with men or women completely equal. That is acknowledging that energetically When women engage in more feminine communication, including a marketing, it's more effective, when men engage in more masculine communication, their marketing is more effective. What's really interesting is where we've seen some without getting too political, where we've seen some shifts in in it being more common for men to be feminized. At this point in society, there are many men who will use more feminine communication in their marketing. And then wonder why they're attracting the wrong clients, or whether attracting clients who want to walk all over them, or attracting, you know, mostly female clients, when they actually want to be attracting either male clients or a combination of male and female clients, etc. So it's very, very interesting how it can translate into then the client attraction, but also your, your experience of your business on the inside, right? This all is about reverse engineering, what works.
So how, you know, in terms of authentic, like it being authentic, or the words being an eye, and I also get that, like, you're saying, some people are more comfortable using certain ways of communicating and have maybe have learned that. So from the from the perception of the other, how does the other person know? I mean, certainly in today's culture, like, well, who's who's a man who's a woman? Or? Or is it, you know, if you're, because you've got to be priests being perceived as a masculine man in the first place, in order for there to be feminine? And if there's a feminine communication coming from you, then that is, that's the thing that's, that's, that's gonna be not aligned? Is that the idea?
Yeah, so let me give an example. So let's say that you are a man, and you're actually not very masculine at all, you're quite energetically, right, energetically, you're quite kind of gender neutral, like you kind of oscillate between a little bit of masculine energy and a little bit of feminine energy, right, which is, which is increasingly common in our modern society, is that women have a mixture of masculine and feminine energy. And men have a mixture of masculine and feminine energy. And it actually does create a lot of conflict. Because it's not how we were designed, we were designed that men are meant to be mostly in their masculine energy. And there's a small minority of situations where it's more effective for them to sort of go into a more feminine energy. And women are designed to spend more time and feminine energy. So if your brand imagery is masculine, there's going to be an assumption that the energy that your marketing is also going to embody and project would also be masculine. So then if it comes through as feminine, it does two things, it creates a discordance, or it creates a sense of lack of cohesiveness, which makes your your brand magnet weaker. But also, if you have a masculine man, with very feminine marketing, he is more likely to attract only female clients. Right? Because the female clients go, oh, that's feminine communication. Oh, I like that. It doesn't feel too jarring.
Right? So so so they will this becomes interesting, then say we're in sales conversations, and we are dealing with some somebody of the opposite sex, do we need to be then adjusting our communication styles so that, you know, selling? If I'm selling to a man, then I can be more directive and kind of assertive and if I'm dealing with a woman, then I need to be more feminine? Or it depends. Right? Okay.
So it depends on your gender as well as their gender. Okay, so if you're a man talking to a man, if you're a man talking to a male client, using hyper masculine communication can be really, really effective. You're a woman talking to a female client, using hyper feminine communication can be really effective. If you're a woman talking to a male client, you want to kind of meet somewhere in the middle, right? So it's very, very interesting, but what what I've noticed is when people are when people lack the ability to in the sales conversation, specifically, when they lack the ability to kind of shuffle a little bit here or there. That's when then people find themselves with, oh, hang on 90% of my clients are male, or 90% of my clients are female. When people have mastered this, both in their marketing, knowing how to speak in a way that is aligned with, you know, feminine or masculine communication, but also when they're able to leverage this in the sales conversation, they're more likely to have a mixture of clients. So they're more likely to end up with like a 5050 split, where they have 50% female clients, 50% male clients. Now, this does also apply to corporate clients as well, because obviously corporations have their own identity as well. And corporations tend to be either more masculine or more feminine. And so if you've got a mixture of like, very, very male dominated, hyper results focused, everything needs to be done yesterday, right? Yeah, clients, and then clients who are more more flowing, more flexible, more creative, more dynamic, again, that actually can speak really powerfully to your ability to, to navigate both masculine and feminine communication. But if it's a personal brand, if it's a personal brand, I, you are the brand, you are the figurehead of the business, you want your messaging to align with your agenda.
So let's let's talk about that a little bit, as well. And also kind of make the distinction between the brand of a business versus the brand and the personal brand. This is not always clear. And I think it's really interesting, because all successful businesses have two brands, they've got the personal brand of the CEO and the person running it, you look at Steve Jobs and Apple, you look at all in Tim Cook now. Or you look at Tesla and Elon Musk is you know, the is classic examples. But we all have our own personal brand, and then the band brand of our business. So they've got they've got different styles, genders communications, and also now we're talking about what the gender is of the person who's communicating. And that, and then I suppose this is where this would open up into another conversation or what, what is gender? And obviously, there's so much talk about, yeah, you know, people not being the, I mean, this is not my, my area, go down that rabbit hole. And they're being, you know, being a conversation around what is what is gender anyway. And some people feeling like, well, you know, how I feel is not aligned with what my body is. And then so that's going to kind of have a disjunct of communication as well with another person, if you look a certain way, then I'm going to be expecting you to be communicating in a masculine way. And now you're not.
Yeah. Yes, can definitely create, obviously, I mean, that that whole situation can create a lot of confusion for the individual, but also from a brand perspective, can create a lot of confusion and conflict as well. Yeah,
right. Okay. Okay, so So the difference between personal brands and business brands start their
personal brand is, and your brand might be purely a personal brand. So if the name of your company is your name, and you're the figurehead, and your front and center, and everyone else is operating underneath you, you have your personal brand as the CEO, as you said, Ryan, but also the the brand is a personal brand as well. Right? So that's what I'm talking about when I say, a personal brand. From that perspective, a corporate brand is a brand that you have created to represent the culture, the mission, the identity of a company, and is something that can be sold in the future, right? You can sell a corporate brand, you can't sell a personal brand you can you can sell a company that's operating underneath a personal brand. And someone else can run it or they can rename it. Yeah, so that's the difference,
which is more important these days.
I personally, I'm a little bit biased, because my brand is a personal brand and most of my clients brands or personal brands. I think there's absolutely a time and a place for both. But I think there's a different level of magnetism. When the brand is yours, and the brand either has your name as part of it or your name, certainly your name front and center. Yep. And the reason for that is that humans really like to hire other Humans. Yeah, humans have more of a preference and natural preference to hire other humans than to hire some mystical entity that has a name. Yep. And so you obviously can achieve the best of both worlds, if you have a corporate name, but then your faces as your face as a founder or your faces as co founders are at a very much front and center, and your personal story and your personal mission is front of front and center, you can achieve the best of both worlds with that. And there is a specific area of the brain called the fusiform face area that lights up when human beings see faces. And so whichever type of brown whether it's a personal brand, or a corporate brand, having your face as much as if you've never done it before, it might be scary, and you might want to remain invisible. And you might think that that's cool and sexy, but it's really not, you want to have your face.
Well, this is this is very interesting, like as architects, classically, will try and remove any evidence of, of humans being either in our work, and building pictures and on their websites. And we'll see these very kind of clean, sleek, minimalist websites with a sexy looking bit of logo or title. And then you know, you don't know who it is and actually putting a face or faces, it becomes it just totally changes the dynamic and, and the way that it's been communicated and how people are relating to it. And I find
it there's a different level of trust as well, there's definitely a level of conduct of connection. And there's a different level of trust, because they go, Oh, you're a human being. And especially if if they've had any kind of personal relationship with you in the past, or any kind of professional connection with you in the past. Which if you're leveraging your network properly, you should be regularly having clients come through who have been personal connections in the past or have been professional connections in the past, whether they're previous clients or clients that you serve through a different entity previously. There's just a totally different level of trust, because they immediately go, I know him.
Great. Okay, so So now coming back to the the idea of the personal brand and communicating it kind of with some kind of gender alignment to how you're being perceived. And then the the energy with which you're communicating. Yeah. Like, how did how can people kind of start to dig into that and become congruent? If you like?
It's good question. So you want to reflect for yourself? At the moment, in this current moment, are you resonating more with male clients or female clients?
Right? And if there's an imbalance, you want to look at? What do I need to do to redress that balance?
Right. So actually, when we're when we're looking at the kind of ideal avatar client that we want, that gender is actually quite an important part to consider.
It is definitely it is. And I know it's not, it might not be like politically correct to say that, yeah, but it is an energetic truth, that it plays a factor energetically, in the dynamic in the marketing process in the sales conversation, it plays a role. And so if we can have that in mind, if we can be conscious of that. We are going to attract and convert those clients more easily. It's that simple. It's not a political conversation at all.
Right. So I again, I find it interesting what you were saying about the kind of a woman acting masculine if you like, and obviously this is a kind of, like maybe perhaps a cliched a cliched idea of of a woman in corporate life. Yeah. Who's had to adopt a lot of masculine traits in order to, to kind of succeed, is that is that cliche truth? Or is it kind of? Oh, absolutely
a thing, that there are many women in the world who embody that. And when a woman and I've coached many women who've been in that space, and I would say that, me eight, nine years ago, was a little bit more in that space. Yeah, I wasn't, you know, because we can think about it as a spectrum, right? And on this side, you've got like, absolute ball breaking Like just intolerable person to be around. And then on this side, we've got like super feminine and flowy and flexible and receptive and soft and like, oh, yeah, okay, no problem I only want to do. And so I was sort of a little bit more towards this side, like seven, eight years ago, before I started my coaching training before I started understanding energy before I started, you know, optimizing my own ways of communicating and operating and functioning, and helping others do the same. And, you know, there's this, there's two things really, one is a woman being in a very masculine mode of leading, and communicating is normally a trauma response. where something has happened, either in her personal life or professionally, that's made her feel unsafe to be a woman. And so then she decides in her subconscious mind, and often in her conscious mind as well, it's not safe for me to be a woman. So I have to act like a man, or I won't be safe. And she starts doing this not realizing that it not only will deplete her energetically, because again, we're talking here about what works energetically, there's no judgment of right or wrong morally, or any politics or anything like that, what works energetically. So not only will she feel drained, but also she's more likely to repel the exact clients and opportunities that she most wants. And instead, she will attract the kind of clients and opportunities who want her to continue to function like a man who want her to continue to be a ballbreaker. And are likely going to be very hard work to deal with. Because the people that are drawn to that there tends to be something missing in themselves, like, they're too soft, or they're too malleable, or they're too, like literally can't be bothered. So they're like, Well, I'm going to hire her, because she's going to compensate for my weaknesses. And I never want to know this is really, really deep. But we never want an ideal client to be hiring from this person's got to compensate for my weaknesses. We want a client to be hiring us because they go, I need this person's expertise. And I like this person. And that energy feels good. And our values match.
Well, hold on a minute. Okay, so this is very interesting. So we don't, we don't want clients hiring us out of their own sense of lack. Exactly, exactly what they're requiring us because they see it as being like a powerful mix or powerful compliment.
Yes. Right. Any client who hires us from like, well, I've got this thing lacking. And not just like a, like a pocket of knowledge, right? But like, I've got this thing lacking in me. And this very often happens on a totally unconscious level, right, which is why all of my psychology experience and expertise and stuff is integral to this and comes in really useful when I'm helping clients with this. Yeah. So it may be completely unconscious to the client. But what will happen is when they're hiring you from a place of I'm not enough in this, so I'm going to hire my opposite. There's always drama that will unfold. Right? There's always drama will unfold. There's always unhappiness, and conflict, and like nothing you ever do will be enough. Because they're trying to use you to fill a void in them that you weren't designed to fill. Yeah.
So so this so this is very interesting. So if if you are somebody with clients who you feel are kind of quite exhausting and depleting to you, but then one of the first things to be looking at is an inquiry over the congruence of our messaging and what we're putting out and perhaps we've found, like a false mask that were yes, that we've put on, and we're kind of pretending to be something and now now we've got to keep up the pretense. Yeah. And the actual keeping up with the pretense is exhausting.
Yes, is exhausting. And it depletes the strength of our magnet.
Right, got it and the magnet
becomes like ineffective and like, almost like drunk, like the magnet becomes drunk, if we're not being and this is why one of the key things that I do is to help clients become more authentically them. And why the executive coaching piece and the performance coaching piece is so important because if we're not being the authentic us, the magnet is literally drunk. And we'll just like be attracting, like total randoms, right versus when we're authentically us, were authentically us in terms of our own essence in terms of our own communication in terms of our own leadership. And in terms of our messaging, and our sales process, that magnet becomes like 99.9% foolproof, and it will be so rare that someone comes through who's a nightmare client or a wrong fit, or whatever. And if they do even make an inquiry, you'll be able to filter them out really, really quickly, because you've got the proper processes in place to filter out the wrong people, and become even more compelling to the right people.
So how do we accommodate then, like personal preferences and personality preferences and desires for, you know, to be like self expression, and perhaps your self expression doesn't align with a, a preconceived idea of what masculinity is. And you're a man for example, right? Say you're a man you identify as a man. And actually, you're a bit, you know, the way that you feel comfortable, the most communicating is more feminine. You're certainly like saying the world of design, right? It's, there's loads of very creative men, right? Design music. And even even myself, I might, I would kind of say, Well, there's certainly lots of feminine things that I enjoy or community enjoy communicating. Like, how do I how do you start to distinguish between what's authentic, what's pretense and and also creating something that's going to be impactful and magnetic to attract the right sorts of people? For you? How do we how do we walk this fine, fine line balance,
and that's why I think I say that polarity is, is one factor to be aware of, and it's really game changing factor to be aware of. But as you very aptly pointed out, if your authentic essence as a man, your genuine, authentic essence as a man is that you communicate in a slightly more, you know, creative, fluffy effectively feminine kind of way. We don't want to completely abandon that and go in the opposite direction. Because then we'd be creating messaging and creating a brand, that whilst it's, you know, polarized, it's also inauthentic. Yeah. So we do you want to do that dance in any way.
I think this is this is really, really fascinating and, and, you know, just kind of being engaged in a conversation around like, well, what is masculinity? What is masculinity for you? Or what is feminine tea for you? And, you know, we can look at archetypes as well, like, you know, a union archetypes of each sex and with and this is why the whole the kind of the, the gender conversation at the moment is is interesting because we'll already know what exists in pre, you know, in predefined male female is a massive spectrum anyway, definitely. Like a predefined archetypes are archetypes that you could find yourself to fit in, you know, on a male archetype you've got the kind of classic warrior type of image and strong man and then on the other side of it, you've got the lover or like a kind of, you know, the more of like a rockstar kind of person, which is still very masculine. But you know, if you think of someone like I think of someone like Prince or Mick Jagger, who are like borderline kind of certainly in their, in their youth were kind of borderline androgynous, but there was still very masculine and it was a very sexual energy that was being communicated that was very masculine, but it was it was its masculinity was confident enough to, to like, flirt with the other side, if you like.
Yes, it's it's very, very interesting. It's very, very interesting. And yeah, it's a useful thing to be aware of. It's a really useful thing to be aware of, because as much as there is room to play Les, if a man is too much is engaging in feminine messaging to too much of a degree, he will attract clients who are gonna be a nightmare to work with who are going to be needy, right? They're going to be uncertain. They're going to lack certainty, they're going to lack clarity, they're going to be needy, they're going to need a lot of reassurance, a lot of emotional reassurance. Because that's just how it works. Yeah. And so we just want to be aware of it. So we say, okay, right, you know, if this if this person, if this architect sits more in, as you said, kind of like the lover archetype. And so there's a bit more creativity present, there's, there's more nuances present. And there's like an appreciation for aesthetics in an even deeper way. Or we want to own that we want to incorporate that into the brand, and still have important aspects of the messaging, be very directive, still have important aspects of the messaging, be dominant, be owning his authority, be owning his expertise, be saying, you know, if you found this article useful, contact me. I can't wait to hear from you. Yeah. Right, versus what the unhealthy version of that would look like that would diminish the magnet would be like, you know, sharing a whole bunch of expertise and a piece of content. And then being like, hope you found this useful.
Yeah, again. Well, this is very interesting. And again, I use the kind of examples of like a Mick Jagger or Prince, you watch them in an interview, for example. And okay, there's like an end, there's a visual, androgynous artistic shell, if you like, but then the masculine energy is very like what you're talking about. It's super direct. Exactly. So
there's also a really important distinction here about entertainment, like what people find compelling from an entertainment perspective, like, I'm paying for this ticket could because I want to be entertained by you. Yes, is very different to a professional services relationship. Right. Interesting. So just because certain things have worked with certain celebrities in the past, in terms of their brand magnetism, this is a very different segment of the market that we're talking about here. Right? Like, I want to pay you for your for your high ticket services, is totally different than I want to be entertained by you.
Yep. Got it. I love it. I love it.
I want to have a bottle of wine and listen to you.
Well, what's interesting here is I mean, it kind of opens up a very nice inquiry for people to explore their own, you know, masculinity and femininity. And like, it's not, it's not really anything to do with identity at all. It's like, you know, there is an energy here that can be congruent, and that you can utilize, why wouldn't you want to utilize it? And actually, in, you know, embracing certain types of energy, actually, might be really, really fulfilling and enjoyable.
Exactly. And what I've noticed is that this does tend to become really enjoyable for people. Because it feels better to you. Like most of the things that are more effective from a brand magnetism perspective, are also the things that actually feel better to you, as the business owner, you feel more cohesive, you feel more in harmony, you're like, Oh, now I understand why all these conversations didn't go well in the past. And why now? I never have any conflict in any of my sales conversations or any of my client relationship conversations. I understand that completely now, because of this. Right? So again, there's no judgment behind it. It's just it's just about what works. And the other thing that I just wanted to touch on was with celebrities specifically, sometimes part of what we find captivating with celebrities, is that they're total contradictions, right? Like they're completely misaligned in this way. But then they're in credible in this way, right. And that can work in that specific area in that specific industry. But if someone experiences that, again, in a professional services setting, they're like, this doesn't match. This makes me suspicious of you.
And it is, it's a totally different context. Because saying in the idea of like you say, in the idea of an entertainment, or you know, going to see a rockstar on stage, there's an element of complete fantasy and why we're attracted to the person or want to see them entertaining, because they're living a completely fun, fantasy. So fantastical life, it's a rockstar life. That's it's like, it is it's something different. It's something you know, that's why it's up on stage being being entertained and showed off because it's, it's like the peacock if you like, Yeah. Brilliant, amazing, amazing, Jamie, really, really fascinating conversation here, and I'm sure this is gonna take a few people. And I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of people kind of having a lot more questions and even kind of absolute, that's not the way it is, or, you know, I think it's, you know, in today's culture, to have a conversation around masculinity and femininity, and femininity, and embracing them and, and also celebrating the richness of, of like, what it is to be a man or what it is to be a woman. And, you know, it's a very, it's a, it's a conversation with a lot of delicacy that's required. And there's too much there's a lot of kind of, you can't say this, you can't do that. And, you know, jumping on different ideologies very quickly. So I appreciate your contributions today. I think that's been really fascinating. conversation. And I look forward to speaking to you again, so thank you so much.
Thank you so much. And, yeah, just to touch briefly on the on the on the sales conversation aspect. Again, it's just okay, as a as a woman, does it feel better for you to be like, pushy? And this is what you must do? Or does it feel better in the sales conversation, to be more exploring, to be getting to the root of what's important to the potential client exploring that validating their feelings, validating their concerns, and then having the client almost sell themselves at the end of that conversation? Because they feel so seen and heard and understood. Right? I would argue that actually, whatever your gender, that approach to selling is going to be more effective. But there is a particularly antagonistic effect that a woman being in that former state of being will have with potential clients, that will not be as antagonistic for people if it's a man, I'm not saying that's right. I'm not saying that's wrong. It's just a fact. And so again, just just things to consider.
Amazing, amazing, Jamie, thank you so much for today's conversation. And that's a wrap. And don't forget, if you want to access your free training to learn how to structure your firm, or practice for freedom, fulfillment and profit, please visit smart practice method.com Or if you'd like to speak to one of our advisors directly follow the link in the information. The views expressed on this show by my guests do not represent those of the host and I make no representation, promise guarantee, pledge warranty, contract, bond or commitment, except to help you the unstoppable
