Hello and welcome to down to earth a podcast created by the Environmental charity hubbub. This season is all about fashion. Because would you believe it the fashion industry produces 10% of all carbon emissions and clothing production has roughly doubled since 2000. Alongside that one garbage truck full of clothes is being burned or dumped in landfill every second. So we want to discover why we're buying so much, and how our wardrobes impact the world around us. I'm Sarah Duyvil. And I've been working in the environmental space for seven years. But I've always been a big shopper. I love fashion and I love new clothes, and however much I learn about what the fashion industry is up to, I still find fast fashion a hard habit to break. And I find it really difficult to know how to dress sustainably. I know I'm not alone in that feeling. So I want to bring you with me as we meet the designers, experts and changemakers who unpick why our wardrobes aren't working for us and for the planet. My guest today are Charlene Gandy and Larissa Kennedy, who are both contributors to shadow mag, if you haven't heard of shadow mag before, is an online magazine that focuses on the front line of people fighting for social justice all across the world. They said light on loads of different issues. But if you want to learn more about sustainable fashion, they've got loads of amazing interviews with up and coming designers with garment workers and even with Makeda loads we've already spoke to you at the start of this podcast. And they aren't just online. They've started a book club and this time around it's all about bear baton. We're going to be talking about that in a second. But first I asked Charlene and Larissa to tell me what outfits they chosen for the podcast and how it made them feel.
Did you know what like I'm literally in bicycle shorts right now. And this jumper that I first did which is my favourite jumper I always wear it to the point where yeah, this is gonna it's gonna be a handle situation forever to keep this label goes yeah, so I'm literally in bicycle shorts and the black jumper like there is no fashionable energy here. At this hour,
I am in exactly the same position we are going for deep comfort this morning. I'm also in a in a thrifted fleece and I you know when you've just like been on Zoom after zoom after zoom call only thing God people must think I own like, literally like one of two fleeces at this point. But it's just peak comfort. It's like alpaca war, and it just makes me feel all beautiful and cosy.
I love the outfit choices. I think that comfort is always a priority when recording and podcast to kick things off properly. I wanted to ask you about the books that you've chosen for this round of the tournament book club and why you chose them. Really the
reason that we picked fashion and garment workers rights as our theme this time around for the forced. The fourth cluster of shadows bookshelf, which is the name of our book club is because it's the 10 year anniversary of the Rana Plaza disaster in Bangladesh, which many folks will remember 10 years ago, there was a an absolutely devastating disaster at a garment production factory in Dhaka in Bangladesh, which I think was really the sparking point for a lot of conversations about what the fast fashion industry looks like and the sorts of labour that it exploited in order to exist today. And I think a lot of the movement sprang from what had happened at Rana Plaza. And on one hand, it feels like it only happened yesterday. On one hand, it feels like it happened so long ago. And still nothing really has changed. In fact, we've seen the rise of the ultra fast fashion movement. And so I think Rana Plaza really is a It pins us all to a point in time where we really started as a movement, being aware of what the consequences of consuming clothing the way we do today are
and I wonder if you could for the people listening, how would you define the ultra fast fashion movement and where we are today.
For me I am you know, this kind of comes into the echo chambers and kind of filter bubbles that we will exist in. I had very much assumed that a an incident like Rana Plaza where 1000s of garment workers were injured or died in that collapse of the factory building. I would have assumed that that would have really switched people on and made them think a little bit about what their role was as consumers in that supply chain. And I think there was a certain slight shift that happened for sure. But what has become more obvious to me is that that's probably the people that I interact with a new interact with and Reza interacts with. are by and large, there's still this movement of consumption happening that doesn't have that kind of self awareness regard in place. So ultra fast fashion really is taking fast fashion. And amping it up a little bit, it's quite literally that, you know, it's the, it's this cycle of producing clothing that is actually extraordinarily alarming. For a price that is extraordinarily alarming as well. So really, with the business models of fast fashion, you're looking at a you know, so you're looking at 10 pounds for a certain garment, the model that ultra fast fashion is relying on is undercutting all of those prices. 10 pounds for a government is already incredibly low. If you think about the cost of materials, labour, transportation, etc, etc, you're then undercutting that price and coming in at about three, four or five pounds. So you can then imagine you've then taken a sliver away from the materials, you've taken a sliver away from the labour and as liberal, maybe as liberal away from the transportation cost. But obviously, the very, very human impact of that is a sliver that's taken away from from labour. So we look at Brands today that are that are really turning clothing out at a really, really alarming rate. And what that leads to is a thing on the consumers part as well a lack of appreciation about what has gone into producing that garment, the effort, the environmental impact, the Labour impact, the cost and the emissions to get it to you. So what's happening in the ultra fast fashion industry is that people are consuming at a very alarming rate, because there's just that fragmented relationship with the clothing and with the item itself.
It made me think of the the one pound bikini that came out a couple of years ago. But that being I think a great example of what you're describing is suddenly if people are like, Oh, great, you could buy bikini for a pound. I imagine it's a lot easier to throw that away, if you've paid such a low price for it. But yeah, I think that undercutting, and low prices becoming normal, I think people are probably starting to expect lower prices on their clothes, because you know, you can get it cheaper in certain places. So I wanted to ask you about the books that you've chosen for this book club, and what particular angle of sustainable fashion they were talking about that interested you?
Absolutely. So there are three books. Usually what we do at shadows bookshelf is we pick one fiction text, one nonfiction text, and one memoir, books don't always fit very neatly into those categories, but so that everybody has a chance to read something that really fits with their reading style as well. And what we also do at the book club is we don't mandate that everybody reads the full book. So what we'll do ahead of time is send a handful of extracts a handful of chapters, and then discuss those. And then obviously, if folks want to go away and read the full book, they are more than welcome to with the cluster on fair fashion and garment workers rights, we've got three phenomenal books that will be we'll be reading between May and July. The first one is Archer barbers consumed, which really goes into the colonial and exploitative and extractive roots of an industry like fast fashion. And why fast fashion became a permutation of the capitalist system that has been historically relying on the labour of brown and black bodies. And, you know, relying on extracting resources from land and nature in a way that has pillaged from communities for for so long. So barber does a fantastic job of kind of pinning us in that historical context. And then looking at how fast fashion today is very explicitly linked to that historical context. The fiction book that we'll be looking at is a harvest of Thorns by Corbin Addison, which is basically following a garment worker and a human rights lawyer and what their kind of experience is of navigating that world and how gruesome it is. And that is truly a reality of, you know, we've seen so many case studies come to light in recent years, especially following around a plaza. So it's fantastic. I think that there is a fiction book dedicated to this, this particular awareness of this issue as well. And the final book, which really, I think is such a seminal text, not just for talking about fashion and garment workers rights, but for anti capitalism over all, is Naomi Klein's no logo. It's a feat of a book. I don't know whether anyone has had a chance to read it before. But if you have, you'll know that Klein bows from you know, she just travels all over the world talking to people who make the things that we consume in the West, and what those conditions are that they are making those those items in. And so no logo will really be the text that we finish on just again to emphasise that labour rights are not exempt from the movement over all They're not exempt from climate justice. And you know, they're not exempt from the anti capitalist movement, they're not exempt from how green washing presents itself as well. So those are the three texts that we'll be, we'll be exploring,
they all sound amazing. And we'll make sure to put links to all of the books in the description, so that if people want to read along at home, they can. And now I wanted to ask you how you think that we can get more people on board with responsible fashion, whether that's buying secondhand or choosing sustainable brands or even making amending a home?
You mentioned like the quote unquote, environmentally friendly there. And I think that is also a really interesting area that we should be looking at regulation for, you know, I think back to the I think it was 2021, that fast fashions plastic problem report from the RSA. So the Royal Society for arts and manufacturers and commerce, where, you know, even these fast fashion companies that were saying, Oh, look at us, it's ethical, it's sustainable, and whatnot, you know, we're still, you know, half of the majority of the items that they were listing on their websites were containing new plastics, or we're talking like, petrochemical derived polymers, polyester, acrylic, last last day, nylon, you know, processes, but huge, huge amounts of energy are definitely contributing to climate breakdown. And that was half of their products, you know, using that, so, and then the majority being new plastic anyway. So it's also how do we start to regulate, you know, where companies are identifying themselves, as you know, supporting the movement or whatever they want to frame it as like, it makes it even harder for a consumer who is seeking out more positive ways of engaging with this? Because you just don't know who's telling you the truth? Like, someone might be saying, Yeah, we're environmentally friendly. But really, they're just doing that, because they know that, you know, the consumer does care. And even though there is a huge distancing, and invisible isolation of labour, people are beginning to be more switched on. But when you're more switched on, it just means that you're, you're looking for those labels, you're looking for the right words. But if those words are unlikely, then it's very, very difficult, we need to see some sort of regulation of who can use those labels of who can say they're environmentally friendly, in order to help make that shift?
And do you find with the kind of people coming to shadow mag to learn more about sustainable fashion? is transparency, what they're primarily interested in is workers rights, or they're primarily interested in what do you think, are kind of the the topics that people want to know the most about?
A lot of people see things like transparency as a means to an end, whereas the real interest is in the outcome, right? So it's about workers rights, it's about what does that mean, in real terms, on a day to day life, of the person who is whose labour is making this possible? So I think ultimately, people do have that deeper interest or that personal interest to know that there isn't going to be, you know, a woman of colour on the other end to Yeah, we might be hearing a transparent reality of, you know, X, Y, and Zed being out this piece of clothing. But has the reality actually changed? And I think, you know, going back to what we were saying earlier about the Rana Plaza disaster, what is so striking is how little has changed in 10 years. And I think, another one of those moments that people often then think, you know, how can we have seen so little changes is the Expos a around the dark factory in Leicester and garment workers being paid, you know, just just around three pounds work has been forced to work during lock downs around the COVID pandemic. Like all of these things, I think people yes, they care about the instance. Yes, they care about the story in that moment, whether that's transparency, whether that's, you know, people what their situation is in that moment. But ultimately, I think when people come to care about these situations, it's because there's a deeper concern for workers rights for, you know, worker exploitation for resource exploitation and what that means in the long term. So yeah, I do think it runs runs deeper.
I think also there is we often we talk about systems change, and we often try and weigh it up with individual action. And, you know, Larissa will know there's so much back and forth about what the like, quote unquote best thing is to do you change your individual actions, or do you try and change an entire system? And I don't know the answer to that, to be honest. I think if I were to give my honest view on that, it is that individual action is a cog. If there are enough cogs whirring, then there is potential for system change. And I think that's really why people come to, to shadow to learn, as well as you know, what is our role, we don't exist in silos, right? There's a brilliant quote that I cannot remember for the life of me where I read, but it just in various contexts, kind of, I think rings true. And it's we are each other's liberation. And I think in this context, in particular, we are each other's liberation is a fantastic way to emphasise that we are not removed from the person that is picking the cotton, you know, that makes the t shirt, we're not removed from the person who assumed that T shirt, we're not removed from the person who is packing it, our hands have quite physically literally touched that T shirt. And I think if we remember the tangibility of that, that is a reason again, that people are coming to learn and coming to understand what their role is in, in facilitating this industry and in facilitating that in allowing for change to happen in the industry as well.
I love that. And I think it's a really beautiful, like barrier to the apathy that it can be quite easy to feel when there is loads of information, it feels like you can't really make a change because the machine is so big, but actually thinking about how we are all connected to each other. And we also all have a power and a responsibility to look out for each other to try and make a decision that's not just best for you, but best for
you. That also goes back to how do we then shift this conversation from? Yes, it's so important to take individual responsibility. But then how do we see that as part of something bigger? And I think, again, that comes back to unions and collective bargaining. We're talking about workers rights in the UK, we're not talking about workers rights more generally. But I think fast fashion is one of those conversations that forces us to see those things as connected. Because often when we're talking about, you know, needing to resort to fast fashion, it's because people are talking about, you know, the cost of living crisis, or they're talking about not having enough money to pay for garments that have been resourced in an ethical way. So how do we show people that, you know, wanting fair pay for workers in the UK so that they can, you know, buy clothing that is sourced sustainably is absolutely interconnected with workers rights in the Global South, and particularly in spaces where those garments are being made? Because if we are able to see our struggles is interconnected. I think it stops that dehumanisation process that these industries are so reliant on, they are relying on us not thinking about where it comes from, they're relying on us, not caring, ultimately, and I just don't think that's human nature. I think we do care. And I think once we have access to that information, and the ways in which those things are so intertwined, like it just changes the game. So I think it's it's definitely incumbent upon us as a movement, to start talking about those things as inherently interlinked. And I don't think we've kind of made that connection as strongly as we can yet. And I
think this would be a good place actually to ask you. The last question we ask everyone. And I, it's, I don't want to have to ask you to narrow it down by going do the question to both of you what you think one thing that the fashion industry could do tomorrow to make the biggest impact is and what you think one thing that everyone listening at home could do today to make the biggest impact to create a more sustainable their fashion industry?
I think one thing that companies could start to do and the industry could start to do is quite simply pay people appropriately pay them a fair wage, we hear so many arguments of Well, that's a fair wage for the country they're living in, that does not matter. And on top of a fair wage, what are the working conditions? How much space are people getting to take leave to visit their families at home? And you know, in a lot of the things that we haven't talked about, for instance, that people move in the global south people generally move to urban environments to take up factory jobs, which means that they leave elderly parents and kids behind in villages. How are we making sure that the conditions for people to thrive at work really exist? And that's a conversation that that isn't being hard, even if we're paying people the right amount of money, who then making them work 1012 hours, with very little human condition, that money actually doesn't matter at all. So it's a very, very, very simple thing. I think that that companies can start doing and that they have shied away from doing because the business model doesn't work in their favour. I think for people again, right relatively easy thing, but challenging to, to kind of set a habit. And you know, I think those of us who have quit fast fashion, I quit it about five years ago. Now. It's a process, it does not happen overnight. But it's just about forming a new habit, and really looking at a piece of clothing and going, Who touched this, you know, who are all of the people that had a hand in getting this piece of clothing to me today. And being active in your consumption, you know, we shopping is an activity in the West, which I think elsewhere in the world is even like a bizarre concept, right? So we are so removed from everything that we buy be that food or clothing or technology or furniture even. And really being active in your consumption is it requires switching your brain on a little bit. So I that would be my, my one takeaway for people is look at a thing, an object that you're buying, and take 30 seconds, quite literally to even be grateful for all the hands that that went into getting it to you today.
Okay, so in sales of the industry, I completely agree that this has to be about wages. And the thing that I would add to what Charlene said is, I think the industry could reasonably could be looking towards workers cooperatives, for resourcing garments, like if we're actually centering the voices of bones who are making our clothing, then I think cooperatives are such a positive way to go. Because it completely challenges the fast fashion sweatshop production of the way that things are done now, because this is about workers rights directly in housings are being run, because it's co owned by those workers. So I think cooperatives and you know, industry sourcing from cooperatives would be a really, really positive thing that they could conceivably do, like tomorrow. So if I had anything that I could say to the industry to just do tomorrow, yeah, it would be making sure that workers actually have a an active voice, not only to say what needs to be done, but to have that done. And yeah, so I love cooperatives and sourcing my clothes and cooperatives, which is why that leads me on to what people can do. And that's just being creative about our fashion. I think one of the things that I really tried to do, as an active consumer is thinking about, you know, how I can be creative with the garments that I already own? And like, Can I turn a skirt into a top? Can I turn a skirt into a dress? Can I turn a shirt into a jacket, like really just trying to think about my wardrobe differently? Because I think often we are caught in the as one of the cogs in the capitalist wheel, as Selena said, like, I think we often caught in the crisis of being forced into over overconsumption, like, do we really need more garments? Like I look back in my nan's closet. And you know, at 90 years old, she was wearing things that she'd bought in her 40s in her 50s in her 60s, and these were things that stood the test of time. She also at one point was a sower and a seamstress herself, really instilled in me the idea that, you know, fashion and being creative with fashion, and what you already have is really, really important. So if someone is thinking about how they can step away from the fast fashion hellscape I would definitely say, think about the garments that you have not only just you but also in your community, whether that's your friends, your siblings, like how can you make those garments that are already in your sphere of existence, you know, how can you give them a new life, and appreciate them a little bit more.
Thanks so much for listening, everyone. I hope that you enjoyed my chat with Charlene and Larissa. I loved meeting them so much. And I really loved being able to go through shadow mag and hear more from their contributors and editors. They've got some really amazing articles. So I'd recommend that you go and check them out. And if you want to read along with their book club at home, we'll make sure that we put all the links in the description. If you've been inspired to make a change, or if you're already making wine, we would love to hear about it. You can find me on my email sarah@hubbub.org.uk Or you can find us on all the usual socials. And if you're quick enough, we might even read it out on the next episode. Thank you so much for listening. This podcast was presented by me Sarah duyvil Created by hubbub and produced by any day
