Pop Culture podcast 01/01/24: A Sensible Attitude to Dry January with Helen McGinn

3:48PM Dec 31, 2023

Speakers:

Kat Brown

Helen O'Hara

Helen McGinn

Keywords:

drink

flavour

january

helen

wine

alcohol

year

christmas

big

good

non alcoholic

nice

tonic

lovely

dry

delicious

book

writing

bottle

booze

Welcome to pop culture, the podcast that brings soft drinks to the top of the menu. I'm Helen O'Hara, film journalist, author and lifelong teetotaler and I'm Kat brown jack of all trades and four years sober. Happy New Year and welcome to our first official episode. So delighted to be here. I mean, I co host it but still delighted. Hello to everybody listening. Hope you enjoyed our Meet the hosts episodes over Christmas and that you will manage to survive Christmas without drinking too much Coca Cola. Yeah. Forever. Helen as my resident schouler fanatic, how much did the Ohara family sync this Christmas? You know what we were enormously restrained this year. I think we only got through like two bottles of slurred what I know and this is genuinely about a sixth of our normal intake over the Christmas period. But we were at my brother's house. He lives near Morrison's we went in and we got interesting cordial rules, and like just a sea of sparkling water. Put the two together and boom, magic. Don't tell Shala there'll be so upset. I'm a bit upset on their behalf. I'm disappointed in myself, but like it's still part of the celebrations for us. I didn't go near cordial except for a delicious meal before Christmas. I went to Oban in Brixton, and had this really delicious Yuzu and soda concoction which was completely mind blowing ly crisp and delicious, but my Christmas was mostly sponsored by the vast amount of jigs cordiality as cans and Peroni zero that I got from the Whitney Waitrose in a panic by on Christmas Eve, because I thought we didn't have any. And it turned out once again, I am the least observant person I know. And I just failed to notice an entire shelf of non alcoholic drinks at my in laws. I also drank an entire bottle of Prosecco to myself, and surprisingly, everybody else was drinking fizzy on Christmas day, it was really nice, really rated that I saw a bottle of that this morning was tempted to try it out for this but decided not to do it. That's fine, how it will work up to it. You don't have to try. And if there's actually something that I really realised when I was listening to your episode, I mean, admittedly, I'd interviewed you in the first place. But who knows what I was thinking of, at the time lollipops, probably when you were talking about The Fat Duck menu, lovely non alcoholic flight that they do and looking at it going oh, but lots of them are non alcoholic beers or non alcoholic wines. And maybe they're not for you. And I think there is a huge difference now Thank goodness between basically those drinks that have just had the alcohol removed and then have just been thrust at people getting is basically the same. And it's not it's always revolting and disappointing. And what is coming up now which is beers wines to a lesser extent, all sorts of things have really been created with being non alcoholic but also having flavour at their very heart. So God knows we've got a long way to go on this. And I'm absolutely not going to force you into drinking all of these things a at all because wrong, but also we've got a year just woke up to it. Absolutely. And look, I am here to try new things. And it has already kind of helped me because we've been talking about this podcast obviously you and I for quite some time. I've been paying a bit more attention in shops to what's there and soft drinks menus and things being wildly disappointed with many restaurants soft drinks menus, including some that really should know better, but also some that are fantastic. I went to Dishoom for brunch with my family. After Christmas, we sank approximately 10 gallons of the chocolate Chai over the course of our lunch, but they have an entire teetotal menu. What Yes, they have a totally different book the same size as far as I could tell as the alcoholic drinks but just filled with non alcoholic drinks, pies and make because I think the last time that I went, I physically went to a Dishoom was before I stopped drinking alcohol, so I probably won't shy and then just zoom straight forward to whatever sort of boozy cocktails they had. Oh, but that's amazing. And Chai actually, you and I went to Chai guys in Covent Garden we did two weeks ago when I was lucky enough to follow you on one of your time honoured trips to the Christmas departments of the big department stores. God that was just delicious. Is there anything that tea spices and vast quantities of sugar can't achieve? I don't think so. If there is I certainly don't ever want find out. Well look speaking of delicious things. And because I'm absolutely gagging to open these and try them. You've bought a bunch of gorgeous things today. Thank you so much. I'm going to make the executive decision to try these partly because they're in a can and pre mixed and that is nice and easy and I just don't have the energy. These are backs Botanics non alcoholic cocktails. We've got one here zingy, lemon and Boehner and tonic and smooth seabuckthorn and tonic seabuckthorn or anything with C in front of it usually just makes me gag and think of seaweed. I'm assuming that's not going to be the case in these. We had these before. I have had them before and they are both I think very nice. The sea buckthorn is I believe a shrub a deciduous shrub. Not in the sense of a shrub like the drink but the shrub is in the bush. Oh, this is absolutely already given me something to learn in the new year. Helen, thank you very much. Okay, right. Let's pour away. I have gotten some beautiful crystal glasses with lovely big ice cubes, not the ice cubes but the glasses I think came from bar Farmers Market antiques fair. Always nice to have non alcoholic drinks and good glasses.

Oh, that absolutely in no way tastes like it's good for me. That is delicious. I've got the lemon one and oh, that's just really crisp, which I know everybody says whenever anything to do with tonic is there but also crucially, it's not just tonic and then something disappointing coming after it. It really, it's got layers. I love it Maryberry might say it was laminated. I'd do that with a drink. Can I try the sea buckthorn? Absolutely, please.

And I'll try to level again. Yeah, this is lovely.

Oh, lovely, mercifully, no touch of seaweed in that at all. Tastes a bit autumnal almost I guess there was something that's how can it

but there is something I don't know woodlands or something about it. And it's not just the quinine sort of bark Enos of the tonic, I really liked the both. I think that the lemony one, it's not a lemonade, it doesn't taste as flat or as simple as that. It's got a lot more going on. It's really alive. If someone's lovely and spicy or something. Yeah,

definitely one of the things that I miss most about taking the train, although given the current state of trains in the UK, pretty much nothing was the concept of gin in a tin. So you'd run seminars at the station, pick up a bunch of them, and then just have a merry old time on the train home. This is any lemon verbena and tonic, I would absolutely take two or three of these on the train and be delighted with it.

This is a brand that uses a lot of organic ingredients locally grown and that kind of stuff. So while there's a bit of sugar, we can deal with it. There's no artificial sugar at least, it's more

just rather than being too precious about what I'm drinking, because God knows I never was before. It's more just I prefer to eat my sugar wrongly to drink it. But this is lovely and dry. And it says in the side, it's like a summer meadow and a can. And I disagree. I think it's like drinking a g&t in a summer meadow in a camp. And I'm very, very happy with that.

Ellen, we're going into January, which is not my favourite time of year to put it mildly. It always makes me think that I should suddenly be looking up some insane diet or eating 500 shrubs a week and it just makes me go slightly insane. You've obviously never done dry January because just absolutely not relevant to you at all, or every trend year has been dry January. Alternatively, it's one of the two I'm not quite sure. Do you ever get caught up in New Year's resolutions at all I try not to I have done them. I say I've done them I have tried to do not always successfully I am trying to eat a bit healthier this new year is just because I feel enormous amount of loss after Christmas. I know. So unlike me, I was staying with my brother and his family this Christmas. And they just had almost decorated the house with chocolate coin. So you just sort of wander through a room and pick up a chocolate coin and eat it you know, which was lovely, but perhaps not conducive to feeling 100% Like a healthy person. So yes, I'm going to try and eat a bit healthier, but I'm trying not to put limits on it. And I also find personally, this is just me, I actually eat better if I have some chocolate stashed in the house. That way, I don't feel that sort of panic of Oh my God, even if I want to treat there's no treat here. So I have a little bit of chocolate sort of set aside after Christmas that is there if I need it. And I won't just go across the street to the shop and buy two packs of biscuits and neck them all at once. Not that I would ever do that. I'm a very sophisticated person. I wouldn't be exactly doing a resolution but I'm trying to do a bit better by myself as in for me and get back to the gym and stuff like that. How about you? Are you? I tried dry January a couple of times. And that combination of it being so disgusting outside the feeling that there wasn't any excitement on the horizon for at least a month if not to June Part Two isn't there until March? I mean, I don't know what to look forward to. I'm doing the countdown calendar on your behalf Helen, Helen will be happy in two months time. But no, I tried it. And I think maybe it's because coming straight. After all the indulgence and delight and candles and joy and fun and noise of Christmas, it just feels a little too much like exiling myself into I don't know, prison in my own house. So it didn't really get on with that. And I did try sober October as well. That was a bit different because that was for charity. So I think I did manage sober October once and therefore was just like, everything's fine. This is great. I've raised that money, but I needed that fundraising aspect to keep me in line. And actually when I did stop drinking alcohol for good it was in August and there's no there's no particular no rhyme or reason but all this is all Drago stroke. No, that sounds terrible. It sounds like a baddie in a fantasy book. I read that the sales of Tesco is not alcoholic stuff goes up in leaps and bounds in June of all times. And I don't know whether it's just that the weather gets up there and people decide that they don't want to be white wine werewolves might literally just be hydration. But you have a grasp this concept.

I have my water bottle with me as ever. It's an interesting time of year for people to further beat themselves up. I interviewed a Norwegian film director recently and he talked about the Norwegian concept of earning your fun right so you have to go and suffer first and then you can have a good time because you've suffered already. And I think we've almost got it backwards with you know a lot of the January resolutions coming after For Christmas, you've had a great time you've absolutely cut loose, you've forgotten all measure of moderation for a few days. And then suddenly you're trying to eat super healthy and do dry January and probably trained for a marathon or something at the same time. And it is a shock to the system in sometimes quite a bad way. So I think people need to give themselves a little bit of grace, a little bit of space. And even if you're doing dry January, you know, if you give yourself a day off a week, who is counting, it's fine, if that's if that's what gets you through it. And if that's what makes it feel easier, whenever

I've been trying to incorporate new habits, they've always been successful one if I've been truly honest about what I want to do, and why I need to do them. But also if they've been nice things to add in, like deprivation and denial are two of the enemies of success in that area. And I say that as somebody in ongoing recovery from binge eating disorder, because they're, of course, you get the binge and you get like zombie trance element of it, and then you get restriction, which then causes the whole cycle to sort of happen again, it's just not there. I think when I've been trying dry January, or anything that involves giving up anything in the past, including Lent, which I think I've managed to do once successfully. And only then because it was red meat. And it turned out that I thought red meat was only beef, so I was just merrily. All these other things that absolutely were were red meat. But I think anybody who wants to try and cut down on booze or whatever, adding in something else that is nice. And I think that's partly why we wanted to do this podcast anyway was to highlight all of the amazing soft non and low alcoholic options that there are now out there and partly to make us very what we drink as well, because otherwise I'll get caught in a kombucha and Peroni zero cycle, and that'd be it and you'll be there with Dash.

Yeah,

the dash dash and why it's a boring,

it's fine. It's nice. It's low in sugar, it makes me feel like I'm being healthy. But I think you're absolutely right about replacing something with something else. Nice. And that's something that I think we're going to be talking about quite a lot we already have talked about in our sort of meet the host episodes is have a nice glass, put some nice ice in it, make it feel like an occasion, whatever you're drinking, even if it's not what you would normally be drinking, you know, that's kind of ritual aspect is part of the niceness of the experience, and maybe quite a big part. And maybe you don't really realise how much of a part of it it is until you take the alcohol out of the equation, it makes me feel better, it certainly makes me feel like I'm giving myself a treat, even if there is water in the glass. Yeah,

it's the framing of it. I think I very often thought that non alcoholic drinks were very much like 10th place compared to anything with alcohol in it because alcohol was the thing that was going to change my mood, which was why when I gave up booze, I just went and hammered black coffee for 12 years. But if you've got something delicious in that glass that you've sort of looked up and feel excited about even if you'd make it a challenge, even if you don't give up alcohol and you actually just make it your challenge to try 15 Different non alcoholic or soft drinks throughout the month. It's like the concept of fun new year's resolutions. There was this wonderful viral tweet during the rounds at Christmas in which one of the ideas that came up was trying like 50 new pasture shapes and yes, that I thought that that is fun. I

have a New Year's resolution for I suppose when the weather gets better, we should go to the green no house. This is something we both talked about. For a long time. I've been meaning to do it for at least 10 summers as I discovered where it was. And I've completely failed to do the data set. This year we're going to do the daytrip

this would be amazing. This is my favourite Christmas book the children of green know by Lucy and Boston. There's also the BBC version which you can watch on YouTube whilst during tedious admin but also Helen, I think in the case of these cans, we've got our perfect gin and the tin alternative

train trip Perrella.

We have a guest we have our first guest our first episode which is super exciting. Whilst we're talking about all areas of soft drinks. You can't ignore the elephant in the room which is dry January and that a bunch of people you possibly listening as well are tentatively going Oh god, I'm just gonna have a miserable month without booze. So we've got the fabulous Helen McGann to tell us all about her experience with Jai January and also her proper non alcoholic drinks recommendations. You'll know her from Saturday kitchen where she does the most brilliant wine recommendations but all sorts of brilliant drinks from her hilarious Instagram nakid mother, she's on loads of podcasts as well. And she's just the most warm, fabulous presence she knows so much about not just why not just alcohol not just drinks in general, but also the flavour the palate of why we like all these sorts of things. She's written a series of absolutely phenomenal books and also now four novels and her fourth the island of dreams is out in 2024. And back in 2016. She wrote what she lovingly calls her pamphlet, which is now called teetotal tipples for January and beyond not just sort of the booze alternatives that you can buy but also ones you can make at home which is really, really nice. And she calls it a pamphlet because back then there just weren't really any good alternatives non alcoholic beer There was only really starting out and it was just the land of elderflower cordial. But here we go. Here's Helen again.

The issue I've always had with the whole dry January thing, anyway, is the all on nothingness about it, which I think is a very unhealthy attitude to have with alcohol in the first place. So I guess I'm more little and often, and as I get older, it's less little and less often, because I can't drink like I used to. But that's the bit that worries me about the whole thing always is this idea of just taking something away completely for a month or however long it is. And then it's almost like it gives you free range to go mad afterwards. And that in itself is it just doesn't feel like a very sensible approach.

I think certainly something that I found on the couple of occasions that I tried unsuccessfully to do dry January sober October, any of those things was exactly that, that feeling of having something taken away, rather than being given something. I was just wondering if you could tell me a little bit about your experience with DJI January because you did it quite a while ago, didn't you? I did it years after it was set up. Yeah,

I did. I did it probably about eight ish years ago now or something like that, I'm going to be perfectly honest with you. I did it because I was paid to do it. Because I was. I was writing an article about for a newspaper about doing dry January, but it was actually pegged to an experiment to see what difference it made to my skin. Over a month, I had my face scanned by this Wizzy machine in a clinic in London, and it was towards the end of December. So I mean, I really had had a few weeks of drinking more than I would normally anyway. And then I had a dry January and then at the end of that month had my face scanned again, to see the difference. And rather depressingly there was a massive difference. I mean, a massive difference in everything in the hydration of my skin in how I looked because I had slept better with not drinking. So I mean, there's no doubt about it, you do just like a million times better. So that is why I did it. And actually, I think part of the reason for then writing my book, or as my friend called it my pamphlet on not drinking because it was quite short. But I wrote that because back then and as I say this is quite a while ago, I couldn't believe how difficult it was to find nice things to drink in January. So not only are you missing out on something that shouldn't be one of life's small pleasures, but there wasn't really anything to me that felt grown up to drink in place of wine. I mean, I'm not really a beer drinker anyway. Because now in the whole no and low space, I think beer is by far the easiest thing to find good examples of but you know, wine back then there was hardly anything. And still to this day, I think I really struggled to find a good non alcoholic wine. That's why I that's where I started thinking like, I'm going to write a book pamphlet on things that you can make easily at home that are a good replacement. And it was about the ritual of making yourself a drink as well taking time to put some nice ingredients together and make it look lovely in the glass and create a little bit of not there. So because that's too big a word for it like a little treat to yourself. So that's what I wanted it to be. One of the

things that I loved most about your book are the recipes particularly because it's not as a mocktail. Here's a version of x y and Zed drink but you are bringing all those years when you were working in the wine industry that complicated dry Tammany deliciousness that so many of us loved from wine and finding that in soft drinks rather than just going oh is a tango gave me a life or an elder cordial. Yeah, this is the thing I just cannot stand elderflower cordial and the sugary ones, which is why I so appreciated things like you combine coffee and tonic flavours that I just It would never occur to me but absolutely jump out of the glass are you have you got any others that you'd that you'd recommend? The sort of easy starters is

so interesting you say that because that's exactly what I was trying to find was I was trying to find drinks that had layers of flavour and that had interesting flavour. And also a slight texture thing too, you know, because when you've got tannin in wine, I wanted to find that really or something about it in my soft drinks and that's where the coffee tonic works so well because you do get that bite from the coffee and then the tonic is really refreshing and it's so simple to make and it's really cheap. So I think it was about trying to find those drinks with more interest in there more flavour and the one area I think that again back when I wrote it the only real sort of non alcoholic drink in that space at the time was seedlip. And I'm sure lots of your listeners will be very familiar with the seedlip story but when it was first launched, there really was nothing like it and now that space is very crowded but the area that I really love and I think has come a long way since writing that book is the whole botanical drinks area. When I was writing that book I learned how to make shrubs for example and I love the idea of making a simple trap yourself which is apple cider vinegar based and then you can put whatever flavours you like in there and I always try and balance something like strawberries and basil or pear and star anise get two flavours that would work together in a recipe and put those into a drink. This feels

like a really good use of that gorgeous book. I can't remember the name of the author. I think it's Nikki somebody but the flavour thesaurus.

I love that book.

Tell me more about making sure because I didn't make banana bread or sourdough and locked down. I just made kombucha. And as a result I never want to make ever again, it was such a massive bath. I love drinking shrubs, but it's just never something that occurred to me are they reasonably easy to make?

Oh my god, they're so easy to make this so easy to make. And in fact, I then got so into them that I had lots of other recipes. But because I'd done my one and only dry book when my publisher said you want to do another one as a thank you. I then did a homemade cocktails book. And actually in that book, I put a few more homemade shrub recipes that you can use in alcoholic or non alcoholic drinks just because it's such a versatile thing to have in your fridge, you know a little jar of whatever you happen to make that week, and it will last happily for a month and you can just mix it with tonics or soda water whatever you want to really what's the

sort of Blue Peter Fisher Price version of the shrubs recipe is it literally just apple cider vinegar, probably reasonably decent stuff plus insert fruit plus leave, how do you make sugar

you put sugar in there as well. And some people don't like the idea of sugar, but to me, it goes back to the balance of flavours I want to drink something delicious. And I don't mind if there's sugar in there, if it's in there for a reason, because it's balancing all the other flavours and the sugar does hold the fruit flavour. And if you just had fruit and apple cider vinegar, it would still just taste of apple cider vinegar, essentially. So if you're going to flavour it, you do need some sugar to help you do that job and help balance it. I mean, I spent months playing around with these recipes and then just came up with a very simple one that you can then apply to whatever fruits you want to do. So that was the idea. The other thing that I did find frustrating was the fact that it doesn't feel like if you are not going to drink it doesn't feel fair that you are paying a lot of money to drink something that doesn't have alcohol in there. It's not taxed in the same way. I know that really you get what you pay for drinks, but same time to pay 20 pounds for a non alcoholic spirit to me just felt a bit off.

No agreed. I still have a very grinchy and attitude towards paying full gin prices for things I might change my mind for sentier, which I tried tried recently, and was quite fascinating. I haven't really explored the world of functional alternative alcohol things so much, but I think they're quite interesting. If you come across those at all

I have and I have had to try some out pieces that I've been researching and writing. I like the idea of them. But at the same time did they create the same buzz for me personally No. For me, it's more about flavour. And I want it to be about flavour. I haven't been converted yet. You know, never say never well, thinking

of some of the other market mums people, just everybody. To be honest, at this time of year, it's not the greatest time to give something up. What are some good ways to relax switch off without that trope of getting a massive wine glass pouring half a bottle into it.

Where I came from when I wrote the knack of mother's wine guide was because I'd done 10 years as a wine buyer for a supermarket. And then I had been pregnant for five years. And the narrative back then was very much the kind of frazzled mum on a sofa with a massive glass of wine. And she didn't really care what she was drinking. And that wasn't my experience. I really did care what I was drinking, it's just that I was a supermarket wine by for 10 years. So I like drinking like cheap wine. I mean, you know, but I care what it is. And I want it to taste good. And I care about where it comes from and who's made it. So I think that's really what I was trying to do without coming across a tall, pear shirted about it. Yeah, I just felt there were lots of my friends I knew who still wanted to have a glass of wine and enjoy it. They definitely weren't drinking like they used to be get older, you have children, all that kind of stuff. Nobody can really function on a hangover anymore. Or certainly for me. As soon as I hit 40 Those days were long gone. So I'm going to drink less but better. And that's really where I was trying to get to was talk to the people I knew who was saying actually I do care about what I've got in my glass and I want to understand more about it so I can shop better and find nice things. That's why the whole frazzled mum thing I've found that quite irritating for me, that's not my experience. And it's not the experience of a lot of people that I've spoken to over the years, both in my previous job as a wine buyer and then writing the neck of mother's mind guide.

That's the thing, isn't it because it's just sort of normalising the idea that the only way to relax or unwind or deal with things is to apply alcohol to the problem and it feels like fingers crossed in 2024. Now we've got a few more things add to that toolkit and I was just wondering what sort of things are in yours and your friends when you don't want to necessarily have a booze or if somebody is doing sober October or dry January or just having some time off if

in a perfect world if I could be left alone on the sofa with a book for more than 10 minutes without somebody coming and asking me where something is or what's for supper, or that's my dream where relaxing is having a moment to sit with my book that's like my holy grail, often it's getting over that first drink. So because I work in the wine trade, and I've worked in the wine trade for about 30 years, which is quite terrifying in itself, I am acutely aware of what happens when your relationship with alcohol goes wrong, because I've worked in that industry for a long time. So it's something I've always been mindful of. And I guess in a way, it's probably why it's made me white controlled about the way I drink, I will always have a certain number of booze free days a week anyway, and I'm in a very lucky position that I've usually got something quite different to try on the non alcoholic front that very often, if it's something that I am just having, I will have a tonic or soda with a botanical drink. These weren't really around it years ago, but things like the TiVo is on the side. Now pentire is another one on the side, Mother roots, which is a switchel is another one, I've always got a bottle of that in my fridge, I find if you just have that one drink at seven o'clock and and make a bit of time to make yourself a nice drink. Once I've had that I'm past the bit where I'm thinking I want a glass of wine,

told me about switchel because that's a name that only popped up in my vision a couple of years ago.

It's apple cider vinegar based and Mother root is one that is well her main one is ginger, which I love. That was her original one. And Bethan who launched it she worked in the wine trade for years. So again, her whole mission was trying to create something with flavour. And she invented mother route when she was on maternity leave, I think same as me, she'd been through the whole non drinking thing and got frustrated that there was nothing out there really, that suited her. But you know, rather than me, which is write a pamphlet complaining about it, she actually invented a whole brand and has been really successful with it. So hers is ginger, I think she's got a bit of chilli in there and a bit of honey. And she now does a bit of orange one as well, which is Seville oranges. So you've got that sort of bittersweet, and you just add a dash at that to tonic or soda and it is delicious, really delicious.

I'm actually on the waiting list for the next time that that bitter orange one opens up because I think they only do it a couple of times a year. And it looks absolutely flipping amazing. It really isn't

she makes it in I mean, they're bigger batches. And she used to when she started and it really was at her kitchen table when she started but they do sell out really quickly. So you just have to get your order in there on the

subject with apple cider vinegar. Again, that's not something that I would ever have thought of drinking, whether mixed with soda, which is perfectly nice on its own or is the base of another drink and yet it just seems to work particularly for people that have drunk alcohol also like to drink booze. What is it about ACB based drinks that works otherwise, it just sounds a bit cranky. And but

I think it goes back to this idea that you can layer up flavoured another great one Duke's cordiality is really good. That's Matthew Jukes, who is a wine writer. I've known him for years and years in professional capacity, but he's also a friend of mine and a very clever man indeed, who saw that gap in the market for a wine alternative and he too had got to the point where we realise that if you take alcohol out of wine, you're basically just left with grape juice. And what most people fill that hole with is sugar. So instead of trying to create a non alcoholic wine, he went down the apple cider vinegar route and has got the red wine and rosy version and again, you just mix them with sparkling water or tonic if you like whatever you like or still water and they have got that kind of savoury tang to them, which is what works really well because it really does give your tastebuds something to work with. It's interesting it makes you think about the flavour makes you think about what you're drinking and they these are not drinks that you sit and plug either you sit there like you would sip a glass of wine and that's just brilliant. I came across

Dukes and I was at Wimbledon earlier this year and was just like Hello What is this almost tastes like wine without obviously being wine and I've since carted cans of the regular around England with me whenever I go anywhere it uses he

uses waste grape skins from a winery in Battersea his workshop is an urban winery. So he's using skins that would otherwise be you know, they wouldn't be thrown away but they you know, end up in compost or whatever and he was like, Oh, I think I might have a go with making you know, so he he mass arranged those skins with his liquid. And that's what helps give it the flavour or colour and all sorts of things.

Not so clever and we can all feel a bit smug about doing our bit to help waste as well. Drinks. Well, those are two sort of new discoveries for me last year, are there any good ingredients brands or new launches that we should keep an eye out for? And this year?

There has been a bit of a breakthrough on the wine brand. It did launch this year, but actually I think was see more of it next year, and that is Zeno wines, which are in Waitrose at the moment. And there's a red, white and sparkling. They've been created for two people who have worked in the wine trade for years. But also they've worked with a master of wine. So they really set out to make a non alcoholic wine. And that, to me is more interesting because instead of just stripping out the alcohol and putting it in a bottle and saying, Well, it's similar enough, this really flavour wise, I think it's quite a big improvement on what I've seen before. In my job, I am asked every single day for a recommendation for a non alcoholic wine, which you know, it shows that there is a thirst for it. There are people who are looking for that. So I think Zeno is one of those that is quite interesting. But Torres, they've got a brand called no Cheerio. It's been around for about 20 years, but they did use a technology, they were one of the first to adopt the technology that removes the alcohol more gently, it doesn't heat it up quite so much. So you don't lose as much flavour for me. They are still the ones to beat, to be honest. But there are some that I've tasted that honestly, just taste them. You think why hasn't anybody in this process, tasted this and put their hand up and said, This doesn't taste very nice.

My father in law stopped drinking for a long period a couple of years ago, and he was very game about just getting everything non alcoholic into the house and trying it. And as a result, I have drunk so much appalling. Red, red in inverted commas, wine, it's just and white wine. It just tastes like a render stress stream and a bottle basically.

There are a couple of couple of possibilities on the cards for people.

What non alcoholic drink would you put in a theoretical Hall of Fame, which one's your keeper.

You don't see it around as much now, but back then seedlip deserves a place just because it was such a massive game changer. Ben, who founded seedlip and has since moved on. He's just launched these two new little they look like bitters that you would add bitters to tonic, he's got two and there's one dark and one zesty. So the zest is green and light pink bright flavours and the dark is smoky and earthy. And you just add a few drops to whatever you're drinking, it could be an alcoholic cocktail, or it could just be a non alcoholic cocktail or just tonic water. he very kindly sent me two of those from his first production run, which I've got. And I have been using those constantly. I don't think it's got any big listings yet. But knowing then I would imagine the new year they will pop up on a shelf near you. At some point you can get them online now season. So it's S E A s n basically saying you season your drinks. One is like salt one's like pepper. That's the idea of a good idea.

And just being able to take down the sweetness or just dial up the complexity a bit more

like a little pop of flavours. It doesn't change the drink completely. But it adds enough interest for you to sit and think What am I tasting here? That's really nice.

He raised a really interesting point talking about Ben and seedlip Berg because obviously Diageo bought a fairly significant stake in seedlip at a while ago, and we are seeing so many more of the really big players launching zero options, either of their own drinks or launching new brands. What are you seeing in that landscape from the traditional big alcohol players and their attitudes towards non alcoholic

options?

Well, I think where it's happening, and it's good is in beer, the fact that you've got Guinness zero now I've tasted them side by side. And I could you know, there's a difference, but it is minimal, because there is so much going on flavour wise anyway. So I think lots more good things will happen in beer continue to happen in beer in spirits less. So I mean, there are a few gin brands that I would say they're not present still gives you that experience that it's worth paying for. But most of them, I just don't think they work as well. The area I'm interested in, and I can see a lot happening is that botanical space that we've talked about brands like three spirits, who have been doing it for years with their layering of flavours and very plant based. And I love that that is a really interesting area. And it just feels more in tune with what we're looking for. Yeah,

and they're one of the functional alcohol alternatives, I think, which is a very laboured way of saying it gives a little bit of a buzz. And that's an interesting field that will probably develop a bit more I guess, in the next few years,

I'm sure but you know, it's really funny on the functional ones. It's a bit like the CBD drinks, again, drunk those and sat there and thought I'd actually just rather have a really nice kind of, like, something that I'm not sitting there waiting for something to happen and nothing happens. You want to mean like it's not going to happen. There is an

element of being a teenager in the body shop with like some body butter or something. This is what being stoned is like. It's the lovely options out there and it's nice there are fun things to play with. Thank you so much Helen for setting us up not just for January, a wider year of options. It's really nice as well that we are now in a space where people that Dylan Enjoy alcohol are quite happy to drink some of the non booze options. Like my husband is very keen on the Guinness zero, as you said the non alcoholic beers like big drops. Yeah, yes.

All of those they have done brilliant work. I think wine needs to play catch up sparkling is the best performer at the moment in wine, but you know they do. But there's loads out there now. That is the joy of it, you've got a choice. And I think before the choice was very limited, and now there is choice and that's a great thing.

Helen, I'm afraid I've got to add her limb again to my list of Helen's I absolutely love.

I mean that I understand that that's she has fabulous, you know,

total legend. Her pamphlet has been reissued with a few different names. And one of them is a wine experts guide to the best booze free drinks. So basically have just had rummage online wherever you'd like to get your books. We've also popped a bunch of Helens into our bookshop.org store, which you can find by searching pop culture soft drinks, podcasts, and we've put our own books in there. We've put our guest books, all sorts of things. So if you want to have a look at anything to do with not drinking alcohol might be helpful for dry January or just a jolly read. You can go there.

I'm going to try a switch off in the near future. Yes, now that I know they exist, and it's not a word I'd ever heard before. We talked to Helen in preparation for this podcast. I'm going to be investigating switches which are basically gingery vinegary drinks

and that sounds so completely revolting when we say it like that and then the reality is delicious when we spoke to Helen Previously, she mentioned mother root London do a beautiful ginger switchel but also that they do a limited edition bit orange almost marmalade one. Yes,

I've been trying to get it ever since and it seems to have sold out everywhere before Christmas. So I'm still on the case.

I've joined the waiting list. I'll just wait for that and then come one week bearing bottles. And Helen we have also actually had some messages from lovely listeners before we have listened to her so excited lovely postbag I think which is so nice. You can email us pop culture drinks podcast@gmail.com Or find us on Instagram where we're pop culture drinks podcast, or you can bother me and Helen on Instagram and Twitter because we always love to chat. So this is from Lottie. Dear Cat and Helen, I go through long periods of not drinking and my husband is currently not drinking for medical reasons. So here's what we have found to be good Fevertree Mexican lime and yuzu soda. It's delicious. I prefer it in the cans for reasons unspecified, but I think because it makes it more like an alcoholic drink than pouring it out of the bottle. doesn't really make sense. Anyway, it's crisp and tart and grown up and delightful. 10 out of 10 we also like DASCH sparkling water with mango, which is again interesting without being too sweet. I never thought I would be a sparkling water person but here we are. Hope this is helpful and best wishes Lottie

Oh Hi lovely people do

start having very strong ideas about cans or bottles.

It's sometimes it can be location specific, I think on the train, as we were just discussing 100% Can all the way no question at home, I tend to go both ways. Gosh, that sounds very innuendo heavy. There are times when you just want something immediate and coming out of Canada is great. And also, you know, like we've discussed with a nice glass and the ice and the whole thing can be also lovely.

That's it. I also think developing particular preferences around sparkling water is the most glamorous thing because I've just never known the difference. Either that or I've just gone for tat. So I do quite like that you are a dash girl and I like feel good. That makes me feel like I mean again, in the most mundane low stakes way January Jetson Jetson sharks sort of thing but Lottie wishing you and your husband good health in the new year and forevermore and thank you so much for writing in. We've also had a note from lovely Sarah Manning, who's a brilliant books journalist and the utterly addictive author of a massive back list of novels a lot of which have been hoovered up by both me and my book club and she writes a shout out to Waitrose brackets it has to be Waitrose. Cloudy lemonade with no added sugar. It has to be no added sugar that is refreshingly sharp and tight enough that it feels like there might be some gin or vodka in the surf with much ice and maybe a splash of elderflower cordial.

Interesting. So we're mixing the cloudy lemonade and the elderflower cordial. Those are two sort of fun being fancy drinks of my adolescence, but I had never put the two together.

I like the idea of just having the splash as well. So that one doesn't take over and become a bit too sweet and grim. And actually, those big like serious business lemonade can really take a bit of extra sweetness quite well. So that's delicious. Oh, a cordial fan writes Helen. We've had this one over Christmas. And Karen writes Robertson's lime and mint cordial especially made with sparkling water is awesome. Not too sweet. Feels like a grown up drink very thirst quenching cannot recommend highly enough. I

have heard that and it is very popular in my household because basically my brothers are really big mosquitoes fan but it's also the father of two small children, so can't exactly be necking. He goes all the time so he often has that one as a sort of substitute for some of the same tastes we this Christmas we try that same guy so that's basically one of the fancy Robinson's cordial is in the glass bottles rather than the big you know, rather than the big ones. You got it football practice when you were five. So we had the BlackBerry cranberry and slow one over Christmas, which was very nice. And then we also had a pressed pair and elderflower one, which had just enough hairiness to not be too elderflower

Ray. Oh, that was very nice. So yeah,

those are both very good. So But I'm absolutely here also for the fake Mojito illness. Not that I've ever had a Mojito, but I've had many virgin mosquitoes, and it does give you some of the same idea.

You've also just reminded me of that mention of slow Cotswold Tara on Instagram message to recommend fever trees Damson and slow tonic. I mean, in her case, she was mixing it with gin, but she also said that it was just the most gorgeous Christmasy, exciting deliciousness even with or without, without, with or without the booths. I haven't seen that in the shops but I'll keep an eye out and hopefully managed to get my hands on a bottle because that'd be delicious. Over on our Instagram, which is pop culture drinks podcast, Sara says I got your Instagram from Lizzie who's a sober butterfly. Oh side note I looked up what on earth is over butterfly was it is a really lovely collective, largely on Instagram. Obviously, they've got a big website as well. And it connects people that want to do like activities that aren't based around booze. Like all there's different ones all around the UK. And there were lots of, to my mind slightly terrifying pictures of cheery people going gorge walking, which is also known as canyoning bull, which I did once and nearly had a heart attack over because it was very high. But I think that just sounds absolutely lovely like finding support not just new pals and everything but sort of new activities because you know when you stop drinking you can be you can feel very much like what the hell am I going to do now?

I think a lot of people use not even use drinking to socialise but are accustomed to drink to socialise and the two have become intertwined for them. And it can be I'm not gonna lie, it can be difficult. I am not nature's most sociable, easygoing person it is sometimes quite nerve wracking to go out totally sober and introduce yourself to new people and negotiate a party where you don't know a lot of new folk or whatever. So stuff like that sounds absolutely fantastic. What a great idea. Yeah,

really nice. So that's the sober butterfly collective. And back to Sarah's note she says my favourite non alcoholic drink is Cadena. It's bright orange and sparkly and poured over ice. It's the perfect alternative to an apple. I sometimes mix it with an exacto Yes, Sarah, perfect on a summer's day or as a Christmas treat. Helen, you are engaged to be married to an Italian. Tell me about Christina.

He's a very big fan of him. This is history. He's also not really a drinker. He'll have some of his mum's lemon cello once in a blue moon and that's it but he does have a cleaner often if we go to a nice Italian restaurant and they are very okay. I haven't had an epidural obviously, but I've seen them I'm aware of the phenomenon. I'm aware of the bright glaringly orange colour of them and it seems to scratch that itch but it's kind of it is very sweet, but not uncomplicated. You know, there's a little bit of an edge to it as well almost like the the orange peel and not just the orange pneus yeah, there's something almost medicinal about the edge of it, but in a pleasant way that I think would be similar to an apple what do we call that? If it's an apple and you know, Corradino and a no Seco is no parole or something.

That sounds a bit like Calpol. And I'm fairly sure that parents around the world wish that there was an adult version of Calpol. I think it just call it just a Christina sprit. Christina spritz really fair enough.

Well, that's not all the recommendations we've had. We also received quite a lot of voice notes and voice recordings of listeners recommending their own favourites, non alcoholic drinks. Cat has very kindly put those together for us. So here are some of your recommendations. Please enjoy.

Hi, I'm Helen This is Genevieve. I'm a longtime teetotaler who confusingly doesn't drink tea either. I wanted to get in touch with a couple of recommendations for anyone trying out the sober life for dry January. And I reckon these ones might even make you consider extending it for sider fans, I love the 0% Gala pair which is just so Apollyon delicious. Definitely pretty sweet too. In case that's not your thing. I can usually find it on my local Waitrose, if wine is your drink. I'm a huge fan of an antidote which blends gamma grape juice with 15 herbs as well as Apple, ginger and lemon. It is a real tree and a bit of a luxury at around 15 pounds a bottle you can currently get it from rights wines. Hope you enjoy. Bye.

Hello, its will here my non alcoholic drink of choice is lucky st I always keep it in the fridge. So instead of going for the tonic or a glass of wine, it gives me the same sense that I'm having a lovely drink. It's got great flavours, great taste, and I find it really works for me. They have always got a couple of deals on here and there which is what was quite good and I have it on repeat orders so that I don't have to think about it. That's what gets me through. So just thought I'd let you know. Lots of love

to me January's such a bleak time of year. I like to try and extend some of the comfort and treats of Christmas for as long as I can. I think I can mould Apple is really nice this time of year. You can't really go wrong with recipe warm some apple juice, I mean honey, cinnamon, cloves, slices of lemon or orange or whatever you've got. It's just warm and comforting and you don't feel like you're missing out on that.

I went out to a little brunch thing a few months ago with people who didn't try to drink in and the restaurant has a really nice computer cocktail. So it felt a bit fancy a bit event ish, but it was a soft drink. And it was really nice when I was a kid also, I used to pretend to soup malt was a bottle of beer. So even as a very grown adult. Sometimes I don't want to drink alcohol but want to feel like I'm having a bit of a something. I might just grab a bottle of supermodel which has got that obviously multi flavour, but it's completely alcohol free.

Hi, my name is Jane Perona and I'm host of houseplant podcast on the ledge. Have you ever seen a cola not know nor had I until I started drinking fever trees Madagascan Cola, which unlike most other modern colours actually does contain the kola nut, which is the origin of the name. They look a bit like a giant pomegranate seed, I guess you could say they're red and they're sort of an odd shape. I think the term for it is prismatic According to Wikipedia, but the colon up really add something to this cola. It's a really rich complicated flavour that I really enjoy. And if you like drinks like rum and coke and you just want something that feels a bit more sophisticated, I can recommend this Madagascan Kohler also try any Mexican colours you can get your hands on. I tried these recently for the first time in a trip to Canada of all places, but you can get some of these in the UK there's a brand called I think it's Doritos. I'm probably pronouncing that horrifically, but check out the Mexican Colas too, if you like Coke as a mixer and alcoholic drinks, but just want to leave out the alcohol. That's my top tip. Enjoy.

So I really love an Italian Aperitivo called Corradino which they sell in lots of supermarkets now because it tastes just like an Aperol Spritz but with no booze at all. So it is a wonderful thing. Hope you enjoy

this is Lee contributing my best ranked soft drinks. You might think orange juice is a little bit too sweet, sometimes a little too acidic anytime you're on an aeroplane and they're offering juicers ask them to give you half orange half cranberry juice very simple but it's amazing to try it any of you who have tried to bold style non alcoholic lager from a few years ago with a bit of a weird sweetness to it but have not tried the new generation are highly recommend to do so Heineken zero bags blue ocean plastic freedom alcohol free version of Australia Damn. All three of them are excellent Heineken probably my go to.

Hi, my name is Emma Morton Turner and I have the inside stylists podcast, all of our interior styling, small backstory. I am totally addicted to Dr. Pepper and coke it was getting out of hand so I needed another drink when I was out so I decided to do something that we now lovingly called bingo Bongo. Here in the UK we have a drink called rhiwbina It's a black currant squash you would normally just put regular water in it. What I do is I put quite a heavy dose in top it up with sparkling water and I freeze ice cubes with fruity and usually strawberries and raspberries because as it dissolves it becomes this really fruity punch and because it's got bubbles, it tastes really refreshing I would highly recommend it to anyone who's going through dry January because it's a good flavour and you don't feel like you're missing out it's not that you're not drinking something with alcohol in your are drinking something that you can really enjoy. Enjoy Happy New Year.

I really like busy bees. It's delicious and fizzy and it makes dry Jan a delight although I prefer to enjoy Jan in a less depressing month because January is quite bleak anyway

so I'm not write big on this dry January nonsense. But I'm a teacher and I do try quite hard not to drink on school nights. So in the evenings it is often herbal tea. And I love Yogi Tea which is mostly at health food shops and it's alarmingly hippy, they come beautifully wrapped with little tags on that offer words of wisdom so I've just opened one and it says recognise that the other person is you which is possibly a bit deeper than I want my cup to go but they come in about eleventy billion flavours. My current favourites is they do a turmeric Chai which is just sort of small meaning and energising on leave them around during the clearing up. Their classic one is just full of cinnamon and it's the right exactly the right thing to come up with on the sofa on a cold night with a blanket and a boxer. And they do one called women's energy, which is just insanely pink. I'd still rather old fashioned or Negroni, though, sorry.

I just listen to Joe's and must say I do agree with almost everything she said I had an agreement to do at lunchtime. It was rather delicious to release in July, January. So my offer would be if I can't have Office ski, then I would have another national dream and arrived. However, I did have a lovely herbal tea on the cruise called African Solstice, which was really beautiful. So that's my observations.

Well, that was awesome. And I can't wait to try it each and every one of those. Frankly, I'm

feeling quite a long like online grocery order happening. Me too.

If you have got a favourite drink that we haven't mentioned or even when we have or a menu that you'd like to celebrate or shame then do please email us at pop culture drinks podcast, all one word@gmail.com Or an Instagram we are at pop culture drinks podcast. We also have got obviously the lovely bookshop front that Kat mentioned. So if you go to bookshop.org, you will find lots of resources there our favourite non alcoholic books, books by us and books by our guests. So if you just go to a bookshop.org and search for pop culture, the soft drinks podcast, though, should come right up. Helen, I've

got one last piece of Intel for you. Did you know that dry January didn't actually begin in 2013. With alcohol change UK is campaign but actually in 1942. What I know Let me blow your mind just really is. It's when Finland launched sober January which I'm about to murder. Right is Tommy KU. Oh, my finishes rusty, one might say non existent. But yeah, they started this as part of a war effort against the Soviet Union. And the idea was, is that they were getting the entire country to rally round through newspaper campaigns. And it was intended to sort of improve the health of its soldiers and the wider populace, who, understandably, were leaning on the booze quite a lot. This all coming still reasonably fresh off. And not just the memories of the First World War, but the lingering effects of that. So it is interesting that there have been these prolonged periods through history. The key thing here is that they were doing it for something. And actually the woman came up with the idea of dry January, Emily Robinson, she originally had her first dry January in 2011, inspired I think by somebody in America because she was training for a half marathon. So if you have something behind it, again, why sober October in the fundraising can work quite well then all power to you. But if you're just doing it because you've had too much fun, then it's probably not going to go so well. So maybe if you think about adding in some of the recommendations that listeners have give listeners of give that listeners have given. And goodness me I clearly need to have some of them to just remember how to speak after all the quality street I've gargled with over the last couple of weeks, then maybe that's how you can sort of look at dry January this time. And if you do want to have like a concentrated month off the booze, then if you want it to go well then maybe pick a time of year, which has something to compensate for it and when you can go out and do other things without necessarily booze having to be one of them. Would you think Helen

absolutely true and I think January can be a not fun month so make it as fun as possible. Go see some movie all the awards movies are coming out right now. For example, light a candle we're sitting in your lovely candlelit living room at the moment. And I feel like we'd like a lot of candles in the run up to Christmas and then we sort of pack them away. Maybe don't pack them away this year. You know, do things that just feel nice. Yes. And maybe that will help you

through just embrace that root alternative. If you can't love yourself, how can anybody else except just make it more exclusively about loving you to get through January? A make everything slowly and lovely and gently and we'll we'll have that. Helen one last film recommendation for everybody to go and see. Well,

I don't know about everybody. But I will say that poor things is out. This January. It's one of the buzzed about films of award season. It's not going to be for everyone because it's from a very weird filmmaker called Yorgos Lanthimos who did things like the favourite and the lobster in the past and it does have some sex scenes. So don't take your most easily shocked granny. But it is also wonderful, so

maybe my experience grannies are the last ones to be shocked. They've lived it they've been that no, I'm really looking forward to seeing that and you and I have also done a little appearance on the picture house podcast which should be around in January at some time. Sadly, I've only seen two of the four films because I was off recording my my forthcoming audiobook for it's not a bloody trend. When thanks for asking it's out February the first so kicking off a knock crap month with something jolly but Helen at least has seen all the films due to being a film critic and probably being fired. If she hadn't, it

is somewhat frowned upon not to go see films, but this is very exciting. One of the ways you could maybe make this month less terrible is probably pre ordering catsburg. I'm just saying I'm

not even paying her. Ladies, gentlemen, everybody else what a joy. Look, we'll see you next week. Lots of love. And don't worry, there's loads of stuff on telly. Just going to watch that. We'll see you later. Bye. Bye bye.