We'll be able to take clips from this and put it on our broadcast this evening or possibly tomorrow night, but we'll have it up before Thanksgiving. So this is great. I appreciate you getting back to me in short notice. Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. Excellent. Well, we can jump right in. So john crib, can you tell me what was it like reading old Dave? Just the book seems like it has a wealth of information about the man's life and better. Well, it they that may be partly because I confess it took a long time to write actually had the idea for this book way down way back in 2006. Though, I've been working on it on and off since then. But here we are in 2020s. My wife teases me. She says, you know, it only took four years to fight the Civil War, it took more than three times that like the toffee to write this darn book. But as I say, it was a it was a part time job. But a huge amount of research went into it, which I love doing. But I wanted it to be an accurate portrayal of the last five years of Lincoln's life, which is what it is, it starts in the spring of 1860, with his nomination for the presidency. And then we're just at his side, every scene every chapter as he goes through this presidency and the Civil War. That is excellent. And it's such a refreshing history course, just the introduction to the book. I mean, I forget learning in school that on a stage was shot in the head from a would be assassin before he was assassinated. That's right. And that's the kind of scene that I write about. In this novel, did happen. He was on his way from the White House, up to what was called the President's cottage. In those days, it was the summer home. The link was kind of the Camp David of it today, I believe has actually spent about 25% of his presidency living at the President's cottage in the summertime was up in the hills, on the edge of town a little bit cooler breezes, little quieter. And he was on his way home by himself one night riding a horse. And a shot came out of nowhere. And it spooked the horse, and he kind of had a hard time bring the horse under control. But by the time we've gotten to the to the, you know, gates of the summer, the cottage, he had the horse under control, and he got off and gave it to some soldiers. And the next morning, the soldiers had found his hat lying in the road, and it had a bullet hole in it, passing through it. And so, Lincoln tried to explain the way and sales probably somebody just accidentally, you know, had it had his gun go off or something. But it was pretty clearly the by trying to do him harm. Lincoln was under threat of assassinations. Even as soon as he was elected, the death threats started coming. So his whole presidency. He had those death threats coming at him. Incredible enemy, and we have the founding father of the republican party and himself. briary right. That's exactly right. He was one of the founders of the Republican Party, which, which was founded in large part to combat the evil of slavery. So when Lincoln runs for president in 1860, he does become the first Republican president, there have been one. JOHN Fremont had run for president the Republican ticket four years earlier, but obviously wasn't elected. Lincoln does become our first Republican president. Incredible. And nowadays, you know, in America, we have a nation divided we have a racial justice issue of, you know, people tearing down statues and our very history and our very fabric is at stake and even, you know, we see like religious statues being under assault and things like this, you know, being vandalized, I had no idea that Thanksgiving was such a religious holiday, because it seems like from what I understand from your book, that we have Abraham Lincoln stepping up and saying, we need to have a holiday that kids thanks to our beneficent father, can you explain more about this? That's exactly right. Of course, the first Thanksgiving we call the first Thanksgiving took place way back in 1621, with the pilgrims, but after that, as a country got going.
There was no national holiday, some states observed a Thanksgiving Day, others did not. Those that did observe it would hold it at different times, usually around harvest time, but sometimes it would be in October, sometimes November sometimes, you know, December, even January was very sporadic. Some some presidents like George Washington did declare days of Thanksgiving, but it was an occasional thing. But during the Civil War, Lincoln becomes the president that establishes it as a permanent annual National celebration. And he does that he says in his proclamation that he issues that sets aside the last Thursday in November as Thanksgiving Day. He says that, you know, even though we're in the middle of this horrible Civil War, there's still a lot to be grateful for ISIS, the fields are still fruitful. So the crops are good. We are at peace with foreign nations even though we're having our own, you know, horrible internal war. He points out that settlements are pushing West, the population is actually increasing, most important freedom is on the rise, because, of course, billions of enslaved Americans are being freed by advancing Union armies and the Emancipation Proclamation. And Lincoln says, in his proclamation, he says, This is not the hand of handwork of man, this is a hand of God, a gracious God, he says, so he sets aside that day, is a day of Thanksgiving, and praise and prayer marpa nificent father who dwelleth in the heavens, he says, Well, that is just so hopeful, and that he was able to have such a positive attitude and be so optimistic in a time of great catastrophe. Like you said, you know, we're in the midst of a civil war, many Americans are dying. You know, slavery is now being uprooted out of the country, we have to mend the country so that it can be a strong nation going forward. Because of course, you know, we have World War Two eventually, and there's no way a divided nation could have withstood that. Now want to know if so, in this setting. Now, it was a Abe Lincoln, he was a religious man himself. Is that correct? Yes, he was a religious man, he, your spiritual as the war went on, his faith deepened. He spent a lot of time with the Bible, but he could spare time, probably do the Bible better, as well or better than any president we've ever had. He quoted it all the time. Although he he was not that comforted with organized religion. He was never he went to church a lot. But he never actually joined a church his whole life. He was never baptized his whole life. But nevertheless, he was a man of deep faith. And as I say that faith deepened as the war went on. And I'm sure that faith has helped him through all of the daunting challenges. And the, you know, definitely hollows that he was in, of course, you know, in order for him to fulfill his mission, ultimately, his life ended in this horrible assassination. But it seemed like maybe at that point, it was his time to go, he had completed what he was set out to do. We've certainly completed the part about winning the war, I think he would very much would have liked to have had the opportunity to put the country back together again, as best he could. Because as you as you said a minute ago, talking about national unity, and, you know, healing divisions. He really I think, was, was looking forward to that. Lincoln, you know, he was all about the union all about unity, even through this, this terrible civil war, he always hit a head in his mind that we are one in one country, we're all Americans. We're supposed to be all in this together. He started out is his first inaugural address, he starts his presidency by saying to the American people, as the country is on the verge of war, he says, We are not enemies, he says, We must not be enemies, we are friends. And he says, passion may have strained but it must not break the bonds of affection that we have for each other. And he keeps up that kind of language all the way through the war, he just stubbornly refuses to, you know, to give in and say that the South has actually succeeded he, he would, he would say that they they are out of their practical relationship with the rest of the states and you know, kind of phrases like that he called others not dissatisfied fellow countrymen. But he really hangs on to this issue of this society that we really are all Americans were supposed to be one united country. And that's why at the very end of the war, when he gives a second inaugural address, he spent he speaks famous words to Americans. He says he wants the country to act with malice toward none. And with charity for all, as they begin the healing process. And by charity, he's talking he's using that old fashioned biblical use of the word meaning brotherly love for you know, goodwill towards your fellow man.
As just so inspiring. He's left a legacy that we have today. And, and I want to know, no, Abraham Lincoln, he nationalized Thanksgiving as a federal holiday. Now, what did FDR do later on? Was there another step in making that more solidified? Yes, well, FDR, played with the date on it a little bit during the Depression. He for a few years, moved it officially from being the last Thursday and November to he when he moved it back and basically a week and said it would be the fourth Thursday of November, especially in those months where there was an extra, you know, there's an extra Thursday and he did that because back then, the stores didn't start the holiday shopping season right after Halloween. Why they do now. You know, it was Considered crass to do it before Thanksgiving, though he wanted an extra week in there between Thanksgiving and Christmas, next trip shopping week to try to help bring the country out of the depression. And I think now officially about law. It is the fourth Thursday in November. I believe it works now. That's very good, bad karma. And john who is Sarah Josepha? Hale? I have not. I'm not familiar with her in my history classes. And how did she helped the establishment of Thanksgiving? Yeah, Sarah Josepha Hale is a name we're not quite as familiar with these days. But she was very well known in her day, as a writer and editor for years and years with a magazine called Boston ladies magazine and then goatees lady's book, which was perhaps the most widely read magazine in the country before the Civil War. She's also by the way, the author of the point Mary had a little lamb that we all learn when we're growing up. So she's quite influential in her day. And way back in 1827, she started writing essays urging that the country have a national Thanksgiving Day instead of just different states having them on different days. We thought a national Thanksgiving Day would be good for the unity of the country. And she starts writing presidents about it. Starting with Zachary Taylor, she starts writing presidents urging them to make a national Thanksgiving holiday. And so far, she writes Lincoln in September of 1863, urging this when Lincoln issues that Proclamation. In 1863, Sarah Josepha hails 36 year campaign for a national annual Thanksgiving day finally bears fruit. So she's often known as the mother of Thanksgiving. Oh, that's excellent. Yes. And thanks for filling me in on that. I'm sure our viewers are gonna love to hear more about this as we come into the Thanksgiving holiday that, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but it may seem like it's become a little more commercialized nowadays. And I think the religious aspect has moved away from it. And people may not have, you know, as much to do with that as anymore. They'll Can you explain what your thoughts are just on the state of the country right now, and why it's important for us to really understand Thanksgiving and partake of it as an American holiday? Well, I think it's important for several reasons I want number one, I think it's always good to be to be thankful to be grateful, you know, in gratitude is kind of a universal human trait or set, if you want to call it that, that I think we you know, we're all guilty of it. And so it's a really good to have a day, just to set aside where we really remind ourselves to be grateful for our blessings. But I think it also as Sarah Josepha Hale and Abraham Lincoln do, it's important for national unity in divided times, and, you know, Lincoln govern during the most divided time in American history. But as we know, I think a lot of Americans pretty feeling pretty divided right now. And the whole point of that Thanksgiving Day in 1863, that Lincoln when he issued that proclamation, not the whole point, but a big point of it was to build national unity, everybody sitting down on the same day, and giving thanks, though, I think that as we of course, I guess not as many people will be gathering around the table this year because of Coronavirus. But that's important rather than having, you know, maybe political arguments around the table. It's important to remember what that Thanksgiving that first Thanksgiving national Thanksgiving Day 1963 was supposed to be all about. And that is national unity.
Well, yes, definitely. And I know the CDC has recommended that people don't travel and just to have a small gathering people that you've been in the same household with for the last 14 days. So I certainly think there'll be many gatherings maybe there'll be some that are postponed or put off in the time being just due to the pandemic. So I hope hopefully people will be able to gather. And I noticed on your sheet you recommended that I asked, why was Lincoln quarantined on his on the first Thanksgiving? Yes, he gave his famous Gettysburg Address one week before that first national Thanksgiving Day in at 63. Also on November 19, he was up in Gettysburg, giving that address to dedicate the cemetery there. And he traveled back to Washington by train that evening. By the time he got back to the White House, he wasn't feeling that good. And the doctor looked at him and it turned out he had a mild case of smallpox. They immediately put it into you know kind of city quarantine and they started vaccinating everybody the White House had come into contact with him, but he was laid up for the next two or three weeks. weeks. Sometimes he did work from the bed as the newspapers were poured on his his health. But that, that for Thursday, in November, one of his secretaries john hay, wrote down, but the president is confined to a secret today. So unfortunately, I don't think he got to have a big Thanksgiving feast with his family either that, that Thanksgiving Day, I think he was he was laid off. Oh, yeah, that does not sound like fine. It's less than you want to do when there's warm Turkey. And yeah, you know, corn on the cob. And so the pilgrims immigrated here from Europe. And then they were celebrating Thanksgiving because they were able to survive. Is that what caused the first Thanksgiving celebration? Yes, because they've been through a very tough winter, lost a lot of people. And so, but when their crops came in, in 1621, they, they had a lot of reason to give thanks, be thankful. And as our call they had about, I think 50 pilgrims were left by then I think. And they had I believe around 90 Native Americans join them for that face. If I got my numbers, right. I'm not great with numbers. I guess that's one reason I just read a novel. But that, of course, is what we point to as the first what we call the first Thanksgiving. It was by no means the first Thanksgiving celebration, even in American history. The earlier colonists go back to the 1500s of some some of the Spanish explorers out the Texas Panhandle, and set aside a day for Thanksgiving. The French Huguenots in the Jacksonville area in the 1500s have done the same thing. The Jamestown settlers in 1607 the first thing they did when they landed was you know, was have a day of Thanksgiving. But that that one in Plymouth is the one that took hold and the American imagination and the one we think of as our quote unquote first Thanksgiving. That is excellent. And, of course, Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation which ultimately led to the abolishment of slavery. Now, why would honest ape have a slave holder in his white house with him for his first year president? Yeah, the the first Thanksgiving dinner but the Lincoln's at the White House, which would have been in 1861. So this is a this is a couple years before it's proclaimed a national holiday, but they did have a Thanksgiving dinner. And Lincoln has with him that year. His best friend, Joshua speed, he got to know Joshua's speed way back in 1837, when Lincoln moved to Springfield, Illinois to practice law. And he he lodged with speed they shared a bedroom above a general store where our speed was a partner store in downtown Springfield. And Lincoln spent many happy hours you know, beside the stove in that store with Josh feet and other friends talking politics and poetry and you know, other matters. But Steve was a slaveholder. His family owned a large plantation outside of Louisville, Kentucky called Farmington, which Lincoln visited at one point, and they use slave labor to grow hemp on that plantation. That would link it becomes president Josh feet and his wife Fanny, they go to Washington to visit their good friend, Lincoln and I have Thanksgiving dinner with him at the White House. So it's just a reminder of how complicated the circumstances were back at you know, during the Civil War, the president knighted states would have a slaveholder in the White House for Thanksgiving dinner with him.
Yes, it seems just ultra ironic. But at the same time, you know, you have different people in the country that are all Americans, their brothers fighting even dumber slave owners are vehemently opposed to it. And in Lincoln's case, his good friend happened to be a slave owner. So it's sort of like, Well, what
do you do at that point? And what did the Lincoln's for Thanksgiving? I'm curious to know.
Well, we don't have an official White House menu. didn't keep those kind of records those days, but from Yeah, newspaper reports and diaries and cookbooks of the day. We have an idea. So Sarah Josepha hails magazine. goatees lady's book that she edited. They published a recommended holiday menu. And it sounds pretty good. I'll just read it to you real quickly because it's quite a feast. Boiled turkey with oyster sauce, roast goose with applesauce, roasted ham, chicken pie. Dude, beets, coleslaw, turnips, winter squash, mince pie, plum pudding, lemon, lemon custard and cranberry pie. That's quite a beast in it. I don't know how Lincoln stayed so slim with the aid all that. It is great. It just went so hearty, you know you have those winter crops. Just so seasonally fresh, and just that lemon pie sounds great, like merengue or is it like a? I don't know. I'd like to have something. Yeah, well, my family we've always done like the roasted turkey with, you know, cranberry dressing. And then, of course, the mashed potatoes and the rolls. That was always one of my favorites. That's what we have. That's exactly what we have to. Yeah, that's excellent. And so when people read your book all day, what do you what do you anticipate that they will take away from it the most? Well, two things, I hope is a historical novel for the last five years of Lincoln's life. But I've worked very hard to make it as, as historically accurate as I could. And I wanted to do it as, as a novel to bring Lincoln alive for people. So I hope people read it, they get to know him as a walking, talking, breathing fellow, not just that stiff image, we know on the penny for the $5 bill. But also hope if people read it, they come away, remembering and understanding more about the extraordinary service that he performed for this country, because Lincoln really was the giant hero in that epic struggle to save our country saved the union, to defend our founding principles, and of course, free millions of enslaved Americans. I always tell people, I think that if you understand Lincoln's story, you understand the American story better, because a lot of ways he stands centerstage in that great American story.
Yes, I was just looking back to the intro on the Barnes and Noble website for old age. And yes, it was a battle to restore the spirit of the of the American project, really? And, you know, it seems like nowadays, we have under hands, you know, just to an election that has been, you know, just scrutinized in many different ways, a lot of lawsuits and recounts, and it looks like the country is, you know, split right down the middle half want one one Kennedy half on the other. They have differing ideologies. There are people in the center, of course. But yeah, it seems like right now. It's it's a divided time. And what would you What advice would you have for Americans right now, as we head into the holiday season and Thanksgiving? Well, I think Lincoln again, would would, would remind Americans that this is supposed to be one country, we're all in this together. And Lincoln would point us back to those founding principles in the Declaration of Independence, that we are all created equal, that we all have the right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, Lincoln knew, but that is what makes us Americans, those principles. They define us. They're the glue that holds us together. And I think Lincoln would say that as long as we remain dedicated to our American principles, that we will be one people and that we can find common ground and that this country can be a great nation. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, john. I will stop there.