is that it depends on community members perspectives on the use of the land, we really get into the zoning and ordinances and the conflict that happens around or who the conflict happens around, for example, farmers supporting win, while those that may have a second home and a nearby lake. So they live full time in the city, but they have a vacation home, which is quite common in Michigan, they may actually oppose the projects. Sarah explains that the rollout of renewable projects that impact the landscape is only recent, well, somewhat recent, we could say at least here. But it's stemming from our historical reliance on coal fired power plants, which took up less space. So Sarah describes how change in land use is a real challenge for communities, zoning boards, who lack the expertise and experience to balance the polarized views from the community. So think about this, a lot of communities actually haven't even dealt really that much with renewable energy projects, the big one being solar, or the big one being wind, sorry. And then the smaller one being solar now. But there's also going to be more and more things being rolled out across the United States. So this is why this discussion about the rule of versus where you would say even urban areas and where renewable energy projects, I think it's a really important conversation that we have this week. For example, in this discussion, we look at how policies in Washington will be impacting communities across the US, we kind of have a view of this. And from Sara's research that she's done in the past, I think these topics are be going to become even more prevalent as the discussion is happening. Specifically, what I mean is we discussed the expansion of tax credits to foster more renewable energy projects on a huge scale. This is the impact of the inflation Reduction Act, and also the bipartisan infrastructure law that's in the United States. Really enjoyed my discussion with Sarah. And as you hear the remain important obstacles for renewable energy that communities must deal with, is it fair to standardize zoning regulation? So for example, at the state level at the national level? Or is it better to have different requirements every six miles or so when the jurisdiction changes? So these are real, everyday problems that developers that are are interested in having and rolling out, say, wind farms or solar farms, what they have to confront every day is these, we could say arbitrary lines, but lines of government and the people and how they organize themselves. So it's not just the natural features of the land, and where's best to develop a renewable energy project? But also, what do the local governments have to say what a local residents have to say? And how do they weigh this? So we have a brief discussion about energy justice, that kind of brings it all out towards the end there of local versus state or national standards. So is it really fair to exclude the local in deciding to build these energy projects? Because the subtext of our conversation really is about this these ambitious targets the United States has and and I would say throughout the world, right, we have these big targets, we have to use more renewable energy, but what about the local level where it actually these projects have to be built? So as you'll hear, this is not a theoretical argument, but one that is happening more and more and we will be continuing to happen more and more. The intent of the my energy 2050 podcast is to spread the knowledge about how the energy system and I would even say the debates can assist our transition towards it. greener future. And now for this week's episode. I'm here today with Sarah Mills, Senior Project Manager at the gramm Sustainability Institute. She's also a lecturer at school for Environment and Sustainability at the University of Michigan. So Sarah, welcome to the My energy 2050 podcast.