Loading...
Budget — Board of Review / OIG
President Sheffield
All right. All right. Good morning everyone. We will call to order the expanded budget Finance and Audit standing committee. For the
President Sheffield
All right. We will call back to order the expanded budget Finance and Audit standing committee. May the clerk please call the roll. Councilmember Scott Benson. Councilmember Schrader ha the third councilmember Leticia Jackson present. Councilmember Gabriela Santiago Romero
Speaker 1
present. Councilmember Mary waters present.
President Sheffield
Councilmember Angela Whitfield Callaway. Councilmember, call me on the second. Council President Pro Tem James V. Your Council President Mary Sheffield, president of presidential headquarters. There being a quorum, we are in session and we will go straight to our border review budget hearing. We have Mr. Dan wheel that has joined us. Please join us at the table.
President Sheffield
We have some slides. Okay. All right. Good morning, Mr. Dowell.
Speaker 2
Good morning, council president now my buddy How are you all doing today? Thank you, Madam President. Through the Chair. First of all, I'd just like to quickly start off by thanking you all for letting me present today. And then there's a couple of people I like to mention along the way, who were instrumental in making sure the border review was able to act and work through the new reform ordinance. Those individuals include Alvin Horne, who did a yeoman's job of making sure we had what we needed. Bucky Thomas media services, commanders lever and Johnson who provided 
the protection for the board. Our Thompson and his team who through do it, again, did yeoman's work to make sure that they were were able to meet the standards relative to certain requirements, along with the your appointed board. You know, there were a lot of late hours, a lot of late days and weekends. But we got through it. So I just want to start there before I get going. So I'm going to share with you today information regarding your border. Review and how, what we're doing things we have been productive at our shortcomings and ideally, helpful points that you should know about that the border of you needs to make you aware of. So I always start off with it all starts here. So much is leaning on the border review in terms of what happens in the community, relative to assessments, tax exemptions, in other things, classification changes and other matters of this in the border review purview in terms of the decisions that it makes. So we're going to cover a few things briefly. I'm not going to get into a lot of detail, but I just want to make sure that we're 
clear on you know, number of points as relates to the responsibility to border review and what it actually does. So the border view is your board it's a member body appointed by city council to hear property tax appeal concerns, along with certain other matters. Concerning again, the border of property tax assessments, personal property classification changes and other matters associated with the state. Law. And the general property tax sec. It comes it's a good name everybody. Seven of the members are from each of the seven council districts and to his large just like City Council, and they serve for two year terms beginning an odd number year and ending a even number year. And the decision to the border review are appealable to the Michigan tax tribunal. And if the tribunal doesn't get it right, we can actually go to the Michigan Court of Appeals so this is serious business. And 2024 There were a number of things in terms of changes as relates to the ordinance that the border review dealt with. To make sure that citizens were served. It will get it was valuation. We saw over 14 150 individual valuation appeals this year demarche border reviewed and primarily we may not see that many unless it is appeals as presented by either a representative or investors this year a lot. It was more representatives than there were investors as it relates to the large number of appeals that we had. No, we also again saw classification changes, engineering changes and engineering changes, where parcels are either split or combined. Along with personal property bill, there were certain changes in state law where the personal were personal property now owned, that has a true cash value of $180,000 or less is now exempt. All the property owner has to do is follow 5076 with the local assessor and that personal property is exempt until the business is no longer in existence or it has personal property that exceeds $280,000 True cash value limit. The board made sure as we have always done that our meetings were accessible via zoom. It's just like City Council, you can just simply click on the link takes you right to the board review meeting. There is no waiting room. There is no separate separate step or anything that you have to do. The meeting turns on immediately. Our meeting times were always started on time at 9am in the morning, and we were at two locations. This year. We were at Cromwell for eight days and that Samaritan center for for an additional eight days. And you know I think I'd be remiss in mentioning Samaritan if I didn't talk about Mark Owens who literally literally made sure that we had the space at no charge. He gave us again 10 days for the board in terms of we actually were there for eight days but 10 days because we had to set up and then move out it no cost to the board or the city of Detroit. So, again I want to thank Samaritan and Mark Owens are those guys because they helped us out tremendously. But I'm going to provide a summary of again, all the activities and all the things that occurred as relates to the March quarter review. And in that summary, you know, there's going to be some recommended recommended changes for the tax reform ordinance. I think there's some room for us to create some balance in make things a little bit better. Just to make sure that we are being conscious of dollars that we're spending along with making sure that we providing the best service. You know, it's important that we went through this this year, so that we can actually see where we are and what we need to do. We can always work to do better. We can always work to do better. So our biggest our biggest program that we process on a yearly basis is the whole program. We've processed 1000s 1000s of applications a year and that the application is so important to so many homeowners that we have to make sure that we get it right not just sometimes that we get it right all the time. Hope stands for homeowners property exemption and is what was adopted actually into the ordinance Thank you City Council for allowing us to adopt that name. It provides an opportunity for homeowner to see a reduction or elimination of current year property taxes. And because the homeowner has to occupy the property by December 31 of the prior year. It also allows for a homeowner to see a reduction in the solid waste fee as a solid waste fee is a fee and not a tax, but it is reduced by 50% applicants have to apply every year that they need need assistance, but over the past few years over the past few years is made homeowners eligible for the PACE program the pay as you stay program, which reduces back taxes to no more than 10% of the taxable value of the property. And I'm gonna get into that a little bit but we've saved over 12,000 homes from tax foreclosure. And right now today we are working diligently to save hundreds more relative to the pending foreclosure date on Monday. So just to give you a 
quick history on where we are and what has occurred over the past few years as relates to the growth in the number of applications. As you can see from 2005 to 2019. There has been a bit of a increase and there was a dip in 13 and 14 but as you can see through 16 1718 and then in 19 there was a steady increase the increase from 14 1516 and forward started from if you remember there was a lawsuit that we settled with the ACLU and it required additional outreach. And that additional outreach. We touched a lot of households that probably were never touched before. And we began to see an increase while that increase to some mean I have seen significant to those homeowners it was very significant because we were able to again beginning to manage and help those homeowners stay in their homes and manage their tax. Debt as we get into 20 inch through 22. Again, this is our catastrophic time period where we're dealing with the pandemic. This is where we saw a major increase in applications. And again, thank you council president because at that time when you were pro Tim, you asked for a additional funding to provide for advertisement so that we could go out and touch again those homeowners. At that time we also implemented a process where people could submit via Docusign. And because of those good combination of efforts, we were able to touch over 4400 people in a very short period of time between September and December, including opening up then TCF center to for applications to be received and then people will be serviced. So again, we will work with city council we were able to touch in save a lot of homes.
+2
the protection for the board. Our Thompson and his team who through do it, again, did yeoman's work to make sure that they were were able to meet the standards relative to certain requirements, along with the your appointed board. You know, there were a lot of late hours, a lot of late days and weekends. But we got through it. So I just want to start there before I get going. So I'm going to share with you today information regarding your border. Review and how, what we're doing things we have been productive at our shortcomings and ideally, helpful points that you should know about that the border of you needs to make you aware of. So I always start off with it all starts here. So much is leaning on the border review in terms of what happens in the community, relative to assessments, tax exemptions, in other things, classification changes and other matters of this in the border review purview in terms of the decisions that it makes. So we're going to cover a few things briefly. I'm not going to get into a lot of detail, but I just want to make sure that we're +1
clear on you know, number of points as relates to the responsibility to border review and what it actually does. So the border view is your board it's a member body appointed by city council to hear property tax appeal concerns, along with certain other matters. Concerning again, the border of property tax assessments, personal property classification changes and other matters associated with the state. Law. And the general property tax sec. It comes it's a good name everybody. Seven of the members are from each of the seven council districts and to his large just like City Council, and they serve for two year terms beginning an odd number year and ending a even number year. And the decision to the border review are appealable to the Michigan tax tribunal. And if the tribunal doesn't get it right, we can actually go to the Michigan Court of Appeals so this is serious business. And 2024 There were a number of things in terms of changes as relates to the ordinance that the border review dealt with. To make sure that citizens were served. It will get it was valuation. We saw over 14 150 individual valuation appeals this year demarche border reviewed and primarily we may not see that many unless it is appeals as presented by either a representative or investors this year a lot. It was more representatives than there were investors as it relates to the large number of appeals that we had. No, we also again saw classification changes, engineering changes and engineering changes, where parcels are either split or combined. Along with personal property bill, there were certain changes in state law where the personal were personal property now owned, that has a true cash value of $180,000 or less is now exempt. All the property owner has to do is follow 5076 with the local assessor and that personal property is exempt until the business is no longer in existence or it has personal property that exceeds $280,000 True cash value limit. The board made sure as we have always done that our meetings were accessible via zoom. It's just like City Council, you can just simply click on the link takes you right to the board review meeting. There is no waiting room. There is no separate separate step or anything that you have to do. The meeting turns on immediately. Our meeting times were always started on time at 9am in the morning, and we were at two locations. This year. We were at Cromwell for eight days and that Samaritan center for for an additional eight days. And you know I think I'd be remiss in mentioning Samaritan if I didn't talk about Mark Owens who literally literally made sure that we had the space at no charge. He gave us again 10 days for the board in terms of we actually were there for eight days but 10 days because we had to set up and then move out it no cost to the board or the city of Detroit. So, again I want to thank Samaritan and Mark Owens are those guys because they helped us out tremendously. But I'm going to provide a summary of again, all the activities and all the things that occurred as relates to the March quarter review. And in that summary, you know, there's going to be some recommended recommended changes for the tax reform ordinance. I think there's some room for us to create some balance in make things a little bit better. Just to make sure that we are being conscious of dollars that we're spending along with making sure that we providing the best service. You know, it's important that we went through this this year, so that we can actually see where we are and what we need to do. We can always work to do better. We can always work to do better. So our biggest our biggest program that we process on a yearly basis is the whole program. We've processed 1000s 1000s of applications a year and that the application is so important to so many homeowners that we have to make sure that we get it right not just sometimes that we get it right all the time. Hope stands for homeowners property exemption and is what was adopted actually into the ordinance Thank you City Council for allowing us to adopt that name. It provides an opportunity for homeowner to see a reduction or elimination of current year property taxes. And because the homeowner has to occupy the property by December 31 of the prior year. It also allows for a homeowner to see a reduction in the solid waste fee as a solid waste fee is a fee and not a tax, but it is reduced by 50% applicants have to apply every year that they need need assistance, but over the past few years over the past few years is made homeowners eligible for the PACE program the pay as you stay program, which reduces back taxes to no more than 10% of the taxable value of the property. And I'm gonna get into that a little bit but we've saved over 12,000 homes from tax foreclosure. And right now today we are working diligently to save hundreds more relative to the pending foreclosure date on Monday. So just to give you a +1
quick history on where we are and what has occurred over the past few years as relates to the growth in the number of applications. As you can see from 2005 to 2019. There has been a bit of a increase and there was a dip in 13 and 14 but as you can see through 16 1718 and then in 19 there was a steady increase the increase from 14 1516 and forward started from if you remember there was a lawsuit that we settled with the ACLU and it required additional outreach. And that additional outreach. We touched a lot of households that probably were never touched before. And we began to see an increase while that increase to some mean I have seen significant to those homeowners it was very significant because we were able to again beginning to manage and help those homeowners stay in their homes and manage their tax. Debt as we get into 20 inch through 22. Again, this is our catastrophic time period where we're dealing with the pandemic. This is where we saw a major increase in applications. And again, thank you council president because at that time when you were pro Tim, you asked for a additional funding to provide for advertisement so that we could go out and touch again those homeowners. At that time we also implemented a process where people could submit via Docusign. And because of those good combination of efforts, we were able to touch over 4400 people in a very short period of time between September and December, including opening up then TCF center to for applications to be received and then people will be serviced. So again, we will work with city council we were able to touch in save a lot of homes. Speaker 2
Also 
through as you can see in 21 and 22 that need was increased even more. Because you again you have a significant amount of homeowners who lost their jobs or lost family members, there was loss of income to the household in those individuals needed assistance. And so we were able to step up and reach out and touch folks and be able to work with them to make sure that they were able to receive those applications and get those applications processed. So we were able to again in 2022 touch over 18,000 unique individuals to make sure that they were able to stay in their homes in 23 we saw a little bit of a decline. But we still processed over 15,000 applications. I would attribute that decline. As you know the market began to turn and people get back to work and those household incomes begin to stabilize that you know we began to see a reduction in applicants but at the same time I don't think we need to relax or make the mistake that there may not have been some individuals that may have missed filing for 2023 and it was one of the reasons that public act 191 was enacted. You actually again and thank you City Council approved a resolution at the end of last year that allowed us to process almost 2000 individuals that did not have to reapply for 2023 Because again, the timing of the pandemic, the scarceness have the ability for some people to be able to file and so also for 2020 for an individual a homeowner will be able to if they miss 2023 will be able to apply for that 2023 tax relief at the July or December border review. And I'm gonna get into that 
a little bit later. But some of the things that were that where we got to where we are also, we did over 21 workshops and resource fairs throughout the city last year. I know that we're only required to do three, but we did over over 21 in connection with other departments. Again, Officer assessor department of neighborhoods in those resource fairs and working with our community partners and other events and meetings. We touched over 4000 households. We touched over 4000 households that way. I think it was important that it was done because again it every time that we do something and we get it right obviously it puts a different perception on the city itself. But even more so we begin to set better standards. Not just for the community but ourselves in terms of if we're stewards that we're being good stewards of a product or policy or a process. Being able to get out and touch the community and work with the community actually sets the standard that we're here to help. We are we are all public servants. So and then the last couple of things that I want to mention is again, our continued outreach to help prevent tax foreclosure. We are working constantly I mentioned it earlier I was on a call last night with treasurer soubry his ex to treasurer where we're working all the way up until the last minute in over the weekend to make sure that we can help save as many homeowners as possible from property tax foreclosure. We're working through tirelessly to help get it done. But again, it's important. The last couple of things as we're also in the process of implementing new software that's going to help reduce our stress and there have 
been in the work that we need to do. It's also going to help adjust the processes that we are constantly dealing with on an ongoing basis. It helped put them more in line with the way things work today. And again, I have to give a lot of credit to the support, again of Alvin Horne in our Thompson, who's whose teams are you know, working with me closely to make sure that you know we have what we need. And while I'm not going to disregard Alvin for a second, but listen, whatever art is asking for less. Do it does such an amazing job in my eyes in terms of what I need to get done. And what I need to get done is a universal process that allows a person to apply one application and get to a ton of different services. And that is the long term goal that we're working on. And I need to do what's helped to get that done. So I'm going to bring it up again briefly, but there's a couple things that we have to make sure it gets done in the next little while. So I talked about 
pay as you stay pay as you stay was enacted. Right before the pandemic it was actually 10 days before the pandemic hit. Governor Whitmer signed into law, the pay as you stay plan or law. It's the first time that any type of retroactive process has been available for property tax regarding property taxes and to help prevent property tax foreclosure is a simple three step process. A person applies for an exemption on a authorized with an authorized local jurisdiction, which in this case, the city Detroit, if they receive an exemption in any level, we just simply forward that data to the county treasurer, making them eligible for the PACE program that their back taxes have been reduced to no more than 10% of the taxable value of the property and being through the assistance of the Detroit Tax Relief Fund. Thank you Dan Gilbert, who gave us $15 million, and that $15 million is administered through Wayne Metro not to see Detroit, but the bet the balance of those back taxes are paid off. So again, single mom, who lost her mother some time ago and had to go through the arduous process of getting the 
property through probate. She's working at Burger King, three kids $18,000 in back taxes. Once she got the home through probate, we're able to get her into the whole program under percent exemption that $18,000 in back taxes was reduced to $1,059 which was paid off by the Detroit tax relief fund. So again, we're stabilizing their communities. That's what we're doing. And so just another note, the PACE program does sunset next year, July 120 25. And so I go back to it all starts here. You know, we we connect directly to low income homeowners. The whole program provides a tremendous amount of information as relates to what happens was happening in a household. So the some of the partnerships or the programs that we are directly connected to as with the results from a person who provides an application to the whole program. Again, pay as you stay solid waste reduction, parking permit reduction, city council enact an ordinance regarding certain years of parking permits. And if you live in one of those areas and you receive a hope exemption, you actually get a discount on your parking permits. There's actually in the ordinance seniors who receive assistance due to flooding, renew Detroit, you'd be trade Tax Relief Fund, Detroit home repair program, and again, these are programs that are not programs provided by the city, Detroit, these are programs that's provided by other philanthropic or non nonprofit entities, that utilizes per utilizes the fact that a person receives a hope exemption for in terms of getting them through their process. The Lifeline program water affordability real quickly on that a couple years ago sat with Brian Peckinpah and we found that there were 12,000 individuals who qualified for water affordability through the whole program and it reduced the amount of time that they had to spend getting those people into the program. All they had to do was reach out and I actually just had to get them to sign up, but they already knew who they were.
+1
through as you can see in 21 and 22 that need was increased even more. Because you again you have a significant amount of homeowners who lost their jobs or lost family members, there was loss of income to the household in those individuals needed assistance. And so we were able to step up and reach out and touch folks and be able to work with them to make sure that they were able to receive those applications and get those applications processed. So we were able to again in 2022 touch over 18,000 unique individuals to make sure that they were able to stay in their homes in 23 we saw a little bit of a decline. But we still processed over 15,000 applications. I would attribute that decline. As you know the market began to turn and people get back to work and those household incomes begin to stabilize that you know we began to see a reduction in applicants but at the same time I don't think we need to relax or make the mistake that there may not have been some individuals that may have missed filing for 2023 and it was one of the reasons that public act 191 was enacted. You actually again and thank you City Council approved a resolution at the end of last year that allowed us to process almost 2000 individuals that did not have to reapply for 2023 Because again, the timing of the pandemic, the scarceness have the ability for some people to be able to file and so also for 2020 for an individual a homeowner will be able to if they miss 2023 will be able to apply for that 2023 tax relief at the July or December border review. And I'm gonna get into that +2
a little bit later. But some of the things that were that where we got to where we are also, we did over 21 workshops and resource fairs throughout the city last year. I know that we're only required to do three, but we did over over 21 in connection with other departments. Again, Officer assessor department of neighborhoods in those resource fairs and working with our community partners and other events and meetings. We touched over 4000 households. We touched over 4000 households that way. I think it was important that it was done because again it every time that we do something and we get it right obviously it puts a different perception on the city itself. But even more so we begin to set better standards. Not just for the community but ourselves in terms of if we're stewards that we're being good stewards of a product or policy or a process. Being able to get out and touch the community and work with the community actually sets the standard that we're here to help. We are we are all public servants. So and then the last couple of things that I want to mention is again, our continued outreach to help prevent tax foreclosure. We are working constantly I mentioned it earlier I was on a call last night with treasurer soubry his ex to treasurer where we're working all the way up until the last minute in over the weekend to make sure that we can help save as many homeowners as possible from property tax foreclosure. We're working through tirelessly to help get it done. But again, it's important. The last couple of things as we're also in the process of implementing new software that's going to help reduce our stress and there have +1
been in the work that we need to do. It's also going to help adjust the processes that we are constantly dealing with on an ongoing basis. It helped put them more in line with the way things work today. And again, I have to give a lot of credit to the support, again of Alvin Horne in our Thompson, who's whose teams are you know, working with me closely to make sure that you know we have what we need. And while I'm not going to disregard Alvin for a second, but listen, whatever art is asking for less. Do it does such an amazing job in my eyes in terms of what I need to get done. And what I need to get done is a universal process that allows a person to apply one application and get to a ton of different services. And that is the long term goal that we're working on. And I need to do what's helped to get that done. So I'm going to bring it up again briefly, but there's a couple things that we have to make sure it gets done in the next little while. So I talked about +1
pay as you stay pay as you stay was enacted. Right before the pandemic it was actually 10 days before the pandemic hit. Governor Whitmer signed into law, the pay as you stay plan or law. It's the first time that any type of retroactive process has been available for property tax regarding property taxes and to help prevent property tax foreclosure is a simple three step process. A person applies for an exemption on a authorized with an authorized local jurisdiction, which in this case, the city Detroit, if they receive an exemption in any level, we just simply forward that data to the county treasurer, making them eligible for the PACE program that their back taxes have been reduced to no more than 10% of the taxable value of the property and being through the assistance of the Detroit Tax Relief Fund. Thank you Dan Gilbert, who gave us $15 million, and that $15 million is administered through Wayne Metro not to see Detroit, but the bet the balance of those back taxes are paid off. So again, single mom, who lost her mother some time ago and had to go through the arduous process of getting the +2
property through probate. She's working at Burger King, three kids $18,000 in back taxes. Once she got the home through probate, we're able to get her into the whole program under percent exemption that $18,000 in back taxes was reduced to $1,059 which was paid off by the Detroit tax relief fund. So again, we're stabilizing their communities. That's what we're doing. And so just another note, the PACE program does sunset next year, July 120 25. And so I go back to it all starts here. You know, we we connect directly to low income homeowners. The whole program provides a tremendous amount of information as relates to what happens was happening in a household. So the some of the partnerships or the programs that we are directly connected to as with the results from a person who provides an application to the whole program. Again, pay as you stay solid waste reduction, parking permit reduction, city council enact an ordinance regarding certain years of parking permits. And if you live in one of those areas and you receive a hope exemption, you actually get a discount on your parking permits. There's actually in the ordinance seniors who receive assistance due to flooding, renew Detroit, you'd be trade Tax Relief Fund, Detroit home repair program, and again, these are programs that are not programs provided by the city, Detroit, these are programs that's provided by other philanthropic or non nonprofit entities, that utilizes per utilizes the fact that a person receives a hope exemption for in terms of getting them through their process. The Lifeline program water affordability real quickly on that a couple years ago sat with Brian Peckinpah and we found that there were 12,000 individuals who qualified for water affordability through the whole program and it reduced the amount of time that they had to spend getting those people into the program. All they had to do was reach out and I actually just had to get them to sign up, but they already knew who they were. Speaker 2
And 
then again, outside and private programs that again require property taxes to be current and then just other programs and other services. And I could go on all day long with this as in terms of the need from expungement. Right. We have a person in a household who and we know who it is we have the data right because we have access to the courts and all the information. If we're trying to get them to a better place in life, then and we know they're in a household that is low income, then why are we not giving them the assistance and walking them through the expungement process and then education and to a better job. So we have to again begin to connect the dots and as more than a universal process that I was talking about. And so our plan priorities for 2025 include full implementation of a software or software solutions that will reduce the stress access and provide efficiencies and support to the whole program. Reduce the number of resource events and increase city in the vendor participation. So we're not this year, we're not going to do 21 events we're going to 
do between seven and 10. But they're going to be bigger and better. They're going to be not we just come and get information where you come and get help. Where you come in and not just receive Hey, this is what you go do know when you come here, you're actually applying for a resource. You're actually getting assistance, you're picking up something and you're leaving and you're walking away with a better quality of life at these events. So that's that's one of our main focuses this year. Development of supportive services and opportunities through partnerships and alliances. That's part of that outreach that I was just talking about through these events that we're going to be working on review of the current ordinance and offer positive changes, positive changes for efficiency and policy. That's all we're really concerned about. It's just making things better. Work to provide more visual learning tools in multiple languages. You know, here's what I learned about our assessment notices. I think our assessment notice is fine. That's not the issue. The problem is people just don't read it. I don't care what language to see people just don't read it. So we've got to get visual. We've got to provide visual aids for people to go look at watch so they can see and understand. That's relative to them. That's what we have to start doing development of more educational opportunities for the border review itself. You know, I think that there is a great opportunity for the border of you again to build and grow us knowledge base. And we do that by connecting them with some of the educational components that's offered by the state tax commission when they're having classes on residential evaluation or commercial evaluation. And then again, working with the office, the assessor we're working on actually building out I would say what could be considered a border of new curriculum for the city of Detroit because we think is really, really important again now and it's been really supportive in helping to provide educational tools for the border of you to learn and grow. So again, I want to thank him for that. And then consider asking STC for an exemption for a whole Pro for the whole program for to assist homeowners with severe health and medical expenses. One of the issues that we recently saw in a change in the state statute to 11 seven year and this was under when it was converted to 253 public act 253 It took away the border reviews right to or ability to deviate from the guidelines what was called substantial and compelling reasons. We have a part of our community that has dealing with serious serious medical conditions and medical expenses. And sometimes your income is above the guidelines. And what's the balance? Do I pay my taxes? Do I pay for my medication? Do I literally go to dialysis that I may even have a 
out of pocket that I have to pay? Or do I pay my taxes? And so I think there's got to be a balance in between the two and in the process of of having some discussions on what that looks like. And ideally, we'll be able to write something that the state tax commission will be willing to accept that I'm going to bring to this body annex to provide a resolution so that we can actually take it to the Stax the state tax commission and get it approved. But I'm saying certain things as relates to what occurred in that transition of us not being able to grant those exemptions for those individuals and the potential for those individuals to possibly lose their homes. So we got to focus on that. And then, as I mentioned earlier, the ability for a person which is new under what is now public act 191. Again, same thing statuto 11 Seven you for a hope applicant who did not apply or did not receive determination in 2023 will be able to apply for an exemption in July or the December border review of this year. But the prior year. So our budget request, you know, it's I got a lot of stuff here, but I'm gonna keep it simple. A lot of folks ask for or getting ready or receiving that that 2% increase, you know, just real simple. That's what we'd like to see. The reality of it is the responsibility of the border review is a moving target every single day. You know, again, I believe to some degree the tax reform ordinance was needed. But at the same time, it added some additional things in terms of responsibilities to the border review, and I tried to narrow the scope on how some of that debt or challenges is met, based in keeping in line with the way the border review was currently compensated. And what I mean by that is a perfect example is so on average, a person who works for the city who may be assigned here working to hear the building working and this is their assigned workplace, and they have to now go someplace else to do their work will probably get mileage. So how do we deal with that balance for the border review? And best what was x when the ordinance says that border review you're no longer going to do your hearings in the city county building where your designated workspace is? You're going to now do them over here or over there. So what's the distance what's the cost? And again, it can be a moving target and then when you start talking about responsibility, ethics and all the other things centered around when you start talking about individuals, you know, submitting documentation for certain things. I think the simplest way to approach it is to just make sure that there is an added cost in that per diem or in those days so that the person who has that responsibility just has that cost embedded in then we don't have to get into those extra things or extra steps or extra associated responsibilities because at the same time, when you do that, it's not just that person you're bringing in, you're also bringing in all the individuals who are responsible for correcting it, adjusting it, paying it, allowing it to be done I mean, it's there's a lot of components right. So now, we're talking about for this one thing, we're bringing in three or four additional people, and then what does that really cost? So let's just narrow it down. And let's just, you know, again, add that to the compensation and be done. It makes it easier for everybody and a lot more cleaner. And then again, there will be there will be additional things that will come up that either this body or somebody is going to ask the border of you to to address or do and we just need to make sure that the border of you is properly compensated for all the things that they're asked to do. This is no longer the body that just hears exemptions or appeals or just sits behind a desk and looks at paper and makes decisions on applications. This is an active, active moving. Actual life in action actually say heartbeat of the city, because so many people depend on this resource, and so many other resources depend on it. So I'm just going to conclude with saying that you know, we've, we've got a
+2
then again, outside and private programs that again require property taxes to be current and then just other programs and other services. And I could go on all day long with this as in terms of the need from expungement. Right. We have a person in a household who and we know who it is we have the data right because we have access to the courts and all the information. If we're trying to get them to a better place in life, then and we know they're in a household that is low income, then why are we not giving them the assistance and walking them through the expungement process and then education and to a better job. So we have to again begin to connect the dots and as more than a universal process that I was talking about. And so our plan priorities for 2025 include full implementation of a software or software solutions that will reduce the stress access and provide efficiencies and support to the whole program. Reduce the number of resource events and increase city in the vendor participation. So we're not this year, we're not going to do 21 events we're going to +1
do between seven and 10. But they're going to be bigger and better. They're going to be not we just come and get information where you come and get help. Where you come in and not just receive Hey, this is what you go do know when you come here, you're actually applying for a resource. You're actually getting assistance, you're picking up something and you're leaving and you're walking away with a better quality of life at these events. So that's that's one of our main focuses this year. Development of supportive services and opportunities through partnerships and alliances. That's part of that outreach that I was just talking about through these events that we're going to be working on review of the current ordinance and offer positive changes, positive changes for efficiency and policy. That's all we're really concerned about. It's just making things better. Work to provide more visual learning tools in multiple languages. You know, here's what I learned about our assessment notices. I think our assessment notice is fine. That's not the issue. The problem is people just don't read it. I don't care what language to see people just don't read it. So we've got to get visual. We've got to provide visual aids for people to go look at watch so they can see and understand. That's relative to them. That's what we have to start doing development of more educational opportunities for the border review itself. You know, I think that there is a great opportunity for the border of you again to build and grow us knowledge base. And we do that by connecting them with some of the educational components that's offered by the state tax commission when they're having classes on residential evaluation or commercial evaluation. And then again, working with the office, the assessor we're working on actually building out I would say what could be considered a border of new curriculum for the city of Detroit because we think is really, really important again now and it's been really supportive in helping to provide educational tools for the border of you to learn and grow. So again, I want to thank him for that. And then consider asking STC for an exemption for a whole Pro for the whole program for to assist homeowners with severe health and medical expenses. One of the issues that we recently saw in a change in the state statute to 11 seven year and this was under when it was converted to 253 public act 253 It took away the border reviews right to or ability to deviate from the guidelines what was called substantial and compelling reasons. We have a part of our community that has dealing with serious serious medical conditions and medical expenses. And sometimes your income is above the guidelines. And what's the balance? Do I pay my taxes? Do I pay for my medication? Do I literally go to dialysis that I may even have a +1
out of pocket that I have to pay? Or do I pay my taxes? And so I think there's got to be a balance in between the two and in the process of of having some discussions on what that looks like. And ideally, we'll be able to write something that the state tax commission will be willing to accept that I'm going to bring to this body annex to provide a resolution so that we can actually take it to the Stax the state tax commission and get it approved. But I'm saying certain things as relates to what occurred in that transition of us not being able to grant those exemptions for those individuals and the potential for those individuals to possibly lose their homes. So we got to focus on that. And then, as I mentioned earlier, the ability for a person which is new under what is now public act 191. Again, same thing statuto 11 Seven you for a hope applicant who did not apply or did not receive determination in 2023 will be able to apply for an exemption in July or the December border review of this year. But the prior year. So our budget request, you know, it's I got a lot of stuff here, but I'm gonna keep it simple. A lot of folks ask for or getting ready or receiving that that 2% increase, you know, just real simple. That's what we'd like to see. The reality of it is the responsibility of the border review is a moving target every single day. You know, again, I believe to some degree the tax reform ordinance was needed. But at the same time, it added some additional things in terms of responsibilities to the border review, and I tried to narrow the scope on how some of that debt or challenges is met, based in keeping in line with the way the border review was currently compensated. And what I mean by that is a perfect example is so on average, a person who works for the city who may be assigned here working to hear the building working and this is their assigned workplace, and they have to now go someplace else to do their work will probably get mileage. So how do we deal with that balance for the border review? And best what was x when the ordinance says that border review you're no longer going to do your hearings in the city county building where your designated workspace is? You're going to now do them over here or over there. So what's the distance what's the cost? And again, it can be a moving target and then when you start talking about responsibility, ethics and all the other things centered around when you start talking about individuals, you know, submitting documentation for certain things. I think the simplest way to approach it is to just make sure that there is an added cost in that per diem or in those days so that the person who has that responsibility just has that cost embedded in then we don't have to get into those extra things or extra steps or extra associated responsibilities because at the same time, when you do that, it's not just that person you're bringing in, you're also bringing in all the individuals who are responsible for correcting it, adjusting it, paying it, allowing it to be done I mean, it's there's a lot of components right. So now, we're talking about for this one thing, we're bringing in three or four additional people, and then what does that really cost? So let's just narrow it down. And let's just, you know, again, add that to the compensation and be done. It makes it easier for everybody and a lot more cleaner. And then again, there will be there will be additional things that will come up that either this body or somebody is going to ask the border of you to to address or do and we just need to make sure that the border of you is properly compensated for all the things that they're asked to do. This is no longer the body that just hears exemptions or appeals or just sits behind a desk and looks at paper and makes decisions on applications. This is an active, active moving. Actual life in action actually say heartbeat of the city, because so many people depend on this resource, and so many other resources depend on it. So I'm just going to conclude with saying that you know, we've, we've got a Speaker 2
long 
way to go. We've got a lot more to do. And I think that you have amassed the right individuals at the right time that is willing to step up and be responsible for the task that's in front of them. As we go through, we grow together, we learn together. You will find that people teases quite a bit because we're all oftentimes eating together. But that's what family does. In this job and this process. You have to have so a lot of camaraderie because he is the artist to get through. All the border of you does on an ongoing basis on a daily basis is listening to pain. We listened to the pain of our community on a daily basis. We listened to the issues of the person who passed we listened to the person who is dealing with someone in their household who has cancer or someone that is literally passing in their household. I have been to a untold number of funeral services because of just the relationship that I have built with a number of folks in our community. But it's again, it's what we do. It's the standard that we've set. It's the place that we'd like to be, and the border of you provides an undeniable and undeniable service to this community. Just simply ask that you compensate them accordingly. So there was a couple of questions and I don't know if it's proper to address them now or that were sent to me earlier. Through Mr. Whittaker
+1
way to go. We've got a lot more to do. And I think that you have amassed the right individuals at the right time that is willing to step up and be responsible for the task that's in front of them. As we go through, we grow together, we learn together. You will find that people teases quite a bit because we're all oftentimes eating together. But that's what family does. In this job and this process. You have to have so a lot of camaraderie because he is the artist to get through. All the border of you does on an ongoing basis on a daily basis is listening to pain. We listened to the pain of our community on a daily basis. We listened to the issues of the person who passed we listened to the person who is dealing with someone in their household who has cancer or someone that is literally passing in their household. I have been to a untold number of funeral services because of just the relationship that I have built with a number of folks in our community. But it's again, it's what we do. It's the standard that we've set. It's the place that we'd like to be, and the border of you provides an undeniable and undeniable service to this community. Just simply ask that you compensate them accordingly. So there was a couple of questions and I don't know if it's proper to address them now or that were sent to me earlier. Through Mr. Whittaker President Sheffield
All right. If you responded in writing Mr. Dowell? Yes, ma'am. Okay. Then we can submit those for council to review. So that way we can go to questions from colleagues. Okay. Did you have anything else additional?
Unknown Speaker
No, ma'am.
President Sheffield
All right. Well, thank you so much for the presentation in thanking Mr. Dowell for all that you do. You are everywhere in the community. never missing a beat always provided access and information to our residents. So I just want to personally thank you for the work that you do and also the entire board. So thank you again for that. One of the things that you hit on it, I think is extremely important is when we talk about the amount of residents that actually qualify for hope. 18,000 individuals, I mean, it speaks to the need of, you know, creating upward mobility for Detroiters, and you talked about the universal process because I was gonna actually raise that but you kind of touched on it is that we're not just providing programs to people, but actually creating pathways so that they're able to climb the economic ladder and get out of the situation that they're in. So I just really want to make sure that as we're providing water floatability hope and all of these exemptions that equally, we're connecting people with employment, education, whatever it may be to get them out of the situation that they're in. So I'm glad you touched on that and I want to hear more about that how you how you are creating a universal process that really drives connecting people with jobs and training equally at the same time. So you touched on the per diem, that was one of the questions that I have. So can you speak a little bit more to what your thinking would be the compensation that is more appropriate for the workload that has been taken upon for the Board of Review?
Speaker 2
So I'm really just going to keep it simple. I think that the game in general 2% increase. So originally, this was one of the questions that was asked. Originally the our budget for last year was 926. I originally requested 946 and some change for the for this upcoming period. So it was again just under 20 Just under $20,000 increase. You know, not sure where you know any other numbers or maybe where that $18,000 Question mark cane, but that's really, really just trying to keep it just that simple. Just keep it in line with everybody else, you know, and allow that to have.
President Sheffield
Alright, thank you. And then can you talk a little bit more about the education and training for for the board members? I know also a part of the reform ordinances, the reappointment they have to take the test as well too. But can you just speak to overall training and educational opportunities for the board? Absolutely.
Speaker 2
So the one the state of Michigan through their tax reform statute requires that all boards review, go through border review training. I really never thought that was enough. And so I'm not going to say that again set the standard. But when I first started, add it to the ordinance at the border view goes to a training every year along with the fact that we have the board go through continued education based upon State Tax Commission authorized continuing education for assessors, right so this includes again classes on residential, commercial industrial income approach and so that they can become more well rounded. But what I've started doing is not just myself but conversations through with Mr. Horne and other folks in the office, the assessor there is actually an individual, his name is Bob Brandon Meyer, who is a level four state certified teacher in with the office of the assessor and so been working with Alvin and Bob to create a pretty much a curriculum for the for the border review. And while it's not quite done yet, but I believe we're close. This is something even better than what I believe the state tax commission has in terms of the certification of the MCAT the MCAT, Miskin certified assessing technician which is what's actually in the ordinance. No disrespect to the certification, but that's really for a clerk. That's for an individual who is right at the base of you know, getting into assessing and just trying to understand the basic needs. What we're talking about doing is actually somewhere between that certification and just below a MCL. Right. So what it does is is going to provide them more detailed information on how properties are assessed. What does effective versus actual age mean? How is square footage calculated? You know, what does it what does it mean? In terms of when you're looking at the map? Why is the road at the bottom of the page? I mean all the things that are very, very important when you're trying to determine the value of a property. Understanding that you know, improved just simply means anything other than dirt doesn't mean that you had an improvement on your property. It just means that there's an actual structure or something there and that anything again other than the dirt itself. It can can be assessed. Whether it is a garage or you're you added pavement or a driveway or shrubbery. There's all kinds of improvements that can be looked at in terms of being assessed. So we think is really really important that the board has a more rounded in more advanced education than even what the MCAT offers. Right.
President Sheffield
That's good to hear. And I'm looking forward to when that's implemented for the board. And then lastly, just aside from the per diem in the raises for the border review Members, is there any additional support that you all would need? I see hear you say outreach support is necessary. So I'm not sure if his marketing or what type of outreach we're looking for, but can you speak to any additional support that we could provide the board? That's aside from the actual increases in the per diem or the salary for the board members?
Speaker 2
So we think that is really important that we have the use of any additional tools that can allow for better education to the community. You know, so one of the things that that we've kind of talked about our, you know, postcards versus mailing applications. You can put more information on a postcard and people will look at it two or three times versus mailing an application that they may not return. Or, again, those visual aids that allows people to go and see something that you know, in which they will more likely retain better as well. And then when we start talking about outreach, acts will you know support in terms of certain types of locations, because sometimes the size of the events winds up being a little bit larger than and the capacity for the that we've the location that we've picked, so perfect example. Our we did an event at butzel family on Kirksville and that morning, you know, we had people lined up before we even started we stand we started on time, but it was pretty steady. Throughout the day. But you know, reality, the space that we have probably was not large enough. And if we're talking about doing these events, and these events are going to again, house more resources. In a perfect example. One of the issues that we have right now is so many people in Detroit, there's unbanked and so talking with a couple of financial institutions, where they will actually come and set up and I can't say who they are right now because we're still working out details, but they will come and set up and actually allow people to open up an account with no money. And so, you know, these are the we're going to be doing some things that's going to be again revolutionary. And just helpful all the way around. All right. All right.
President Sheffield
Thank you, Mr. Dowell. Colleagues, we can add the border review salaries to the Executive Session. Is there a motion to do so. All right discussion? Yes.
Speaker 3
I'm looking at the first proposal on page 13. Those numbers don't tie so I'm looking
Unknown Speaker
remember that accurate?
Speaker 2
No. The whistle to the chair was on page 13 is not accurate. And at the top it says as proposed. Okay. So it's as proposed in terms of what the mayor's budget proposed, but not what we requested. What's the difference? The difference is about an $18,000 difference. Okay, as
Unknown Speaker
a person let's go per person,
Unknown Speaker
oh per person,
Unknown Speaker
impact your mortgage.
Unknown Speaker
It's probably about a additional 1200 hours I believe. So
Speaker 3
you're suggesting $1,200 increase and the mayor suggesting that $5,700 increase per person annual bout right yeah. We're gonna make sure I'm clear then. Mr. Donnell? Well, you're suggesting a $1,200 increase per board member annually, and the mayor is suggesting a $5,700 increase per board member annually? No
Unknown Speaker
it's not 5700.
Unknown Speaker
I'm looking at page 13.
Unknown Speaker
I seem to make sure that I'm clear on what we're looking to do for the board members.
Unknown Speaker
So dollars would be better for dollars a month.
Speaker 2
So the so if we just look at the top line, okay. The last year's approved budget was 926 350. Yeah, the proposed budget is nine there. We go
Speaker 3
per so that it's really understandable what impact we're trying to have per board member is makes it so much easier if we do a per unit comparison versus the app than full number.
Speaker 2
Yep, absolutely. Thanks for doing so per board member. What this was proposed is $600 They're currently at 75 a year. Okay, so what was proposed is $600
Speaker 3
Per Diem per week per diem rate. I don't see 600. On this document, I see $75,000 per second five, six per board member then I see a rate of $300 per meeting.
Unknown Speaker
Correct per workday.
Unknown Speaker
So you're suggesting that we double that to $600? No,
Speaker 2
I'm gonna, I'm simply saying keeping the per diem rate as it is not changing the per diem rate, just increasing the days. Okay. From 250 to how many. So it would be 255.
Speaker 3
The only three more days? Yep. Mr. Don? Well, how much would that so that's three more days. It's $1,000. That's $900 Actually, times 300. Is that what we're looking at? Annually increase for the board members?
Unknown Speaker
Approximately, yes. Okay.
Speaker 3
All right. And so the mayor, maybe I'm maybe I'm incorrect here. The difference on the proposed it shows up as 5783. More is that what is proposed and what's the total number of 81,000? Hey. I just need I'm just trying to be
Unknown Speaker
clear. Yeah, I understand, sir.
Speaker 3
Those out with the mayor's proposing and maybe through the president Mr. Watson can help clarify.
President Sheffield
Mr. Watson.
Speaker 4
Thank you, Madam President. Three member Benson. So what you're seeing on the table, there is just the FICA payroll taxes that are associated with the payments, so it's not an increase? It's just that the status quo $300 Per Diem at 252 days, which equals $75,600. In compensation, the city also has to pay $5,700 in payroll taxes, which that doesn't go to the individual but that's just part of our standard budgeting process.
Speaker 3
So we're look so your suggestion is three additional per diem days as a way to do the increase. So then why three, why not 10 went out 15.
Speaker 2
So it just being honest customer is just pretty much stay in line with the standard 2% across the board budget that the city was has been doing.
Speaker 3
Okay, and then curiosity, what was inflation this past year? 2023. Me This is probably a more of a Mr. Watson question. I'm sure he's in tune with that. Number. Mr. Watson?
Speaker 4
Three Madam President member Benson if memory serves just somewhere north of 5% When you think about what the actually also what the proposal a inflator was on property taxes, and do
Speaker 3
yourself madam president to Mr. Quarterly, you concur with that number. Okay, thank you.
President Sheffield
Alright, is there any objections to add this to our Executive Session? Hearing none, the action will be taken for cargo November Dora has joined us member Young as well. Right and we will go now to questions member waters. Yes, member waters.
Speaker 5
Alright. So thank you. Thank you so much. Good morning, Mr. Dunn. Well, listen. There's no secret you might just like my absolute favorite person. Yep, yep. I want everybody to know what because you are a complete asset. And I want everybody to know that I feel very strongly about that. And you guys work your butts off. I know that I've seen it. In fact, you're not asking for enough money. Okay. You guys need more money for the work that you do. You work harder than anybody here. And so, and I hope that we can get to when we start we get into the Executive Session. Perhaps we can look at things a little bit differently in spite of what you've requested. So
Speaker 5
when I think about the the class that's required that we voted for by ordinance, I thought that the class was the class itself was mandatory, but whether or not they pass or fail the test is not going to determine whether or not they get to remain on the board. Because I you know, because I find out I don't give a damn about people being able to just pass a test. I want people with a heart. Sometimes people come in and the heartbeat of our city that you talked about, they come in, they need help. They need somebody that she was going to work with them, help them to understand. I don't want to see some arrogant person sitting there with the title in their nose up at people and no compassion. But what people need Now that's what I want to see. So so I'm not going to be hung up on that. I think it's good for them to go through the class and to understand things I do. But let's not base it totally on that whether or not they get to serve. If they have a messed up attitude. Yeah, they can you know, they can go on out. It's no problem. But I've added I want to point that out just so that you know where, what Mary waters is on that. I want to thank you for all of the outreach that you all do, and what happened to that outreach position that put in the budget for you guys last year.
Speaker 2
So through the Chair, I understand that it's been posted and they are trying to working diligently to fill the position. So ideally, in the next couple of weeks, we'll have somebody in that position, but I am actually following up today to make sure that I'll just say that the record is posted. I'll report back to let you know that it's here. Where was he where was actually going on with it. But if I can just say real quickly, TJ it's a much needed position. Much, much needed. Ad Spend a lot of hours working with the community, educating the community, and so the demand is constant.
Speaker 5
Yeah, I'm getting kind of tired of put this body placing things in the budget and all of a sudden here's a year later. Let's next budget season and nothing is done with it. I just don't understand that. It's got to be a better way for us to to follow up on those kinds of things. So, but I don't have any questions for you, Mr. Dunn. Well, I am quite happy and I'm gonna do everything that I can to be supportive of you and your team. So thank you. Thank you, Madam President.
President Sheffield
Thank you member waters member Johnson.
Speaker 1
Thank you, Madam President. And good morning, Mr. Down. Well, I think we all would echo the sentiments of how appreciative we are of you and the support that you give to the board members, and just the support that you give to our community. I appreciate you always looking to solve a problem for our community. And just you know, recognizing that people may be dealing with a health challenge and having to address that as a priority. Recognizing though, that even though on paper, it says that you make it x amount of dollars that your priority should be your health over whether or not you'll be able to pay your property taxes and potentially lose your house because of that. So thank you for elevating that and would love to see that being addressed because we know the federal government has prioritized you know how health challenges impacts our financial, our personal financial situation. So I just appreciate you doing everything that you can. I always shout out the fact that you are a district for residents. And so just appreciate the knowledge and the support that you've given to the district for the new district for appointee Teresa Dubose. She communicates with me very frequently. And just appreciate the outreach that you all do. I do want to ask you about your thoughts around the impact and the effectiveness of being out in community during your march Board of Review timeframe, what did you feel as though you reached the people? I think the intent was to be out in community and to be more accessible for people to feel as though you know, we can go on the east side or on the west side in the community as opposed to coming downtown. But how effective do you believe that was this year? And I know it was a quick turnaround and you know, really trying to meet the letter of the ordinance.
Speaker 2
Thank you for the question through through the chair. You know, I think it's a balancing act. I think that one is new. Right? So if we were expecting huge turnout for the with the public to show up at these meetings to participate in meetings with little to no knowledge. I think that's misleading, right. But at the same time and this is one of the things that I'm going to bring up in terms of balancing, you know, maybe it's not all the time in the community. Maybe it's critical days in the community, right when people can actually come out Friday and Saturday in the community. Right in setup. You know and do again, a weekend on the east side weekend on the west side. You know, and again, it's a it's a balance. I don't think eliminating it is the idea. I think it is putting together looking at what was done and that's we're going to have to do take what we've done, reflect and then come up with the best processes to move it forward. Because for some people and I polled people I talked to folks, was this better for you? Some people said didn't make me any difference. But some people I appreciate it because I didn't have to go that far from home. So it's a matter of again, balancing because we also have to look at the cost. One of the things that we have to look at anytime we do something especially when we make changes is what is the cost? Right and I just think better we just have to we can work and we can do better. And we can be more effective.
Speaker 1
And by cost do you mean the cost to the Board of Review and getting all of the departments that you gave accolades to earlier to be able to convene such activities? Absolutely.
Speaker 2
You know, anytime a city agency moves was just like, again, I was thinking about when City Council goes somewhere, you know, there's a lot of folks involved. It's the same thing for the border review. So we just have to make sure that when we're doing that we are applying it the best way possible, right? Over the course of 16 days, you know if if we may have gotten that many people out, but at the same time, not that many people knew. Not that many people knew that they didn't have to go to the assessor's review. Again, because it was the change was so new.
Speaker 1
All right. Well, thank you. Again, thank you so much for wearing your heart on your sleeve and caring for our residents. We do greatly appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you, Madam President. Thank
President Sheffield
you member Johnson brought in tight
Speaker 6
Thank you, Madam President. And again, echo the sentiments from everyone at the table here. You've always been accessible, come out to the meetings that we we have and reach out to us proactively as well. So thank you for for your service and your actions as well. I also want to give a shout out to Jack Jacqueline Robinson, who is the district one appointee. I've had an opportunity to work with a number of appointees over the years and she has this rare mix of a whole lot of stuff that we're looking for, for those who come in and you know, get compensated but really volunteer their time with the per diem that they receive. So shout out to Jackie and the way that she goes about ensuring that she does everything she can to educate herself and help the residents that she comes across Mr. Don? Well, you mentioned about the automated system that you're looking to fully implemented and during last year's budget, we introduced this this system for filing appeals and submitting information and you said that you're looking forward to fully implementing this system as we move forward. What does that look like and what's what's been the the challenge with getting it fully implemented in this fiscal year?
Speaker 2
Booty Chair, thank you for the question Pro Tem take so when we were actually City Council approved the initial binder that we had we found that the tool as it was, was not robust enough for all that we needed. To do. And so working with our benefactor was rocket along with some of the other community partners and DHS through trade Housing Network. We began to work through a process in terms of what would be the better processing tool. One of the things that again, is being looked at very closely is that universal process. How do we have one application that allows access for multiple services and so that is currently what we are working with, with the in a partnership with DHS, and HR D, to help build the long term process. And so what we're looking to do now is to finalize and something that will be in front of city council very soon will be a new proposed vendor. As soon as we put out the RFP will be a new proposed vendor to that will actually be able to provide what exactly that we need. But here's also part of the hurdle that I think that we have to consider. Anytime we're talking about software and software solutions. First of all, we have to look at the knee and what the tool is. And then sometimes we also have to look at how that is being presented to the to the city. I'm just the belief that we as a city, have to control and own that platform. Now if someone else helps us build it is one thing, but we have to own and control it. Because if we don't own and control it, that puts us at the behest of someone else that can walk away with all the work all the information in all the support that has been put into something that we can use that needs to stay with us. So just in terms of how we and I know this is also a way that art is always Dr. Thompson is always thinking is that how do we have the best practices and the best services and the best tools in order for our city that technology wise to operate and manage and run itself? So we are in the process of again working towards having that best tool and we're going to find the best service that's going to end then we'll have a separate entity that will help us build it out. But in terms of allowing someone else to hold over our heads to control of our asset, which is the technology itself. Just don't believe it. Believe in that.
Speaker 6
So usually when you build it and you retain it, it costs more on the front end. What I've seen are you anticipate and you're looking to get all this out, get it built, and up and running in this upcoming fiscal year.
Speaker 2
Yes. So to the chair. So this was again, one of the things that I was going to wrap up with I have found some money from benefactor when again, it's rocket, it's no secret there. That's willing to pay for a nice portion of the software. But they also want to know that the city has some skin in the game, because some of the ordinance some of the requirements in the ordinance requires that some of the some of the software is provided. And this so this is that cost is the city's own making. Right. So while they're willing to again continue to support and provide financial assistance. They also want to make sure that the city has some skin in the game. Reality is in again, just through conversations don't have it firmed up yet, but we're in terms of the software and the support to actually build it out. We're talking about somewhere in the neighborhood of $600,000 and so, but what it will do is again, provide everything that we need, both for the home application process and other tools that's going to be needed with the office of the assessor as it relates to the March quarter review, because there are a number of things again in the ordinance that has to be addressed. They are committed to come to the table. We don't have an exact amount, but they are committed to come to the table. I already have $130,000 sitting in grants management that they provided that is left from the last round. The city did not spend one dime on the of its money for the initial software that we were building. It was all rockets money. And they'll because and I've said this before I asked for funding some time ago to do the initial hope application process. And unfortunately I couldn't receive it because at that time the city just couldn't afford to do an accessible if I go out and find it. You know in again, it was like okay, go have at it. I went and found it and we were able to move forward. And it was to the tune of a quarter million dollars. We spent about $100,000 in terms of what the previous vendor that we released and we have about $130,000 left. There's in there we're still willing to bring more money to the table to assist in aid in that, again, potentially $600,000 cost. But again, they just don't want to be in it by themselves.
Speaker 6
So that's why I asked that question. You talked about the city having skin in the game, so to speak. Is that skin in the game built into the budget that has been presented to us? No, it has not. So what does that look like?
Speaker 2
I'm going to say that that number is somewhere between two and $300,000.
Speaker 6
Okay, well, I would like to place into executive session at least have a conversation around what we can do to address that concern because we want to get you up and going sooner rather than later. So we'd like to place the funding for the full build out for the automated filing and filing for appeals system for the Board of Review. Madam President.
President Sheffield
All right, any objections? Discussion member Benson
Speaker 3
this to pro 10 Did you want to put a number in there no more calculation purposes when not rather
Speaker 6
us go through the okay. I just want to play something right now and have a further conversation offline first, I'm hearing of it right now. So I want to make sure what I asked for it's legitimate in
Speaker 2
30 chair. It was only discussed at four o'clock yesterday. Okay, so that's what works.
Speaker 6
That's why I just want to make sure we have a full more full conversation about it before we start talking numbers, actual numbers. Last thing is I know
President Sheffield
we just finished the Hearing no objections that will be added to our executive session.
Speaker 6
So the other thing is no member waters mentioned about that individual the liaison I believe it is. And that was like $80,000 85,085 It's 85,000. Now, if, if I'm not mistaken, if we don't if you don't use it, you lose it in that fiscal year and we're now you know, heading towards the end of this particular fiscal year. What happens to those funds and he doesn't know you have not identified that individual yet. Is that is that individuals salary built into this upcoming budget? So
Speaker 2
that'd be the chair. That would be a office, the assessor Oh, CFO. in their, in their budget. Okay.
Speaker 6
So we're gonna let you have. Thank you so much, Mr. Adama. Thanks, again, appreciate the work that you all do. Thank you. All right. Thank you.
President Sheffield
Protune. Member Benson.
Speaker 3
All right. Thank you. And Mr. Don. Well, thank you and to continue with the love fest. I'm not sure I know that we all know what we have in Mr. Willie dowelled. I affectionately call you the godfather of property taxes, because you are the hardest working man in property taxes and I've been in some of those Gilbert Family Foundation meetings. And it is truly a love fest and Mr. Willie downing well can do no wrong. And just the support that you receive because the work that you put in to our residents is huge. And it is so hard to quantify what you do and how you have elevated this position, and what and how lucky we are to have to have you here. So there's going to continue on with that. A number of the things that I see and one of my biggest concerns is I look at the Board of Review as really being more of a grant making program. I believe that we provide a level of relief. We are the tax collectors for region and you add the tax collection you now which is really an entitlement provide a level of relief for our residents that is like as you say, help people stay in their homes. I mean it helps keep them sane, I'm sure reduces the level of stress. I'm sure you're hoping to help many, many people. What is the value total value of that relief that the border review provides the residents of the city of Detroit annually
Speaker 2
in terms of dollars, so on average, we'll say for 2022 It is in the neighborhood of about $15 million.
Speaker 3
Total all jurisdictions include the city of Detroit or our taxing jurisdictions. Yep. So then what we're doing is we're spending about a million dollars annually to provide $15 million in relief. And then what I see is we're looking at we're at about I think 15,000 applications in that ballpark right now. And then out of those applications, how many are I know that we now authorized where you don't have to read resubmit annually? How many are new at that? 15,000.
Speaker 2
So through the chair, it's actually in two parts. Individuals who want a sole source of income, government source of income and meet the threshold, those are the individuals that don't have to reapply that also sunsets in a couple of years. We're working with state legislators to make that just continual, because again, unless they have to Powerball and Mega Millions things are going to change, right? So we've got to make sure that we just continue to protect them and allow them to sustain and then those individuals that don't meet that particular threshold, they have to apply every year. So we have to make sure which is those that received the that continued break without re application is only about a third of the applications that we process. So there will be always between I see here over the next several years, between 10 to 12,000 applications a year, at minimum, the board review will have to process okay, and
Speaker 3
so just trying to be as efficient as we possibly can with our million dollars is knowing that we are going to provide relief, maybe 15 million some years maybe it's more maybe it's less, but we also just need to look at your program as a measurement of fiscal health within our community. If we continue to see these applications grow and that number grow, we also need to be looking at what are we doing? Are we doing something wrong? Are we not providing the support that residents need? This goes to the President's questions I didn't hear an answer to is what programs are you availing our border review, connect our our residents to who are in this program, and it may not be for everybody, some people would just aren't going to be able to work themselves out of it. They just need to have that level of support. But they were able to help 20% and 30% into a manageable sustainable career. And we just saw the new numbers that came out recently. It's about $64,000 for a family of four to be considered middle class in the state of Michigan. That's if you had a two headed household. That's two people making $16 an hour. If you're coming from work where you're not working very often or maybe you're under employed, if we can get people fully employed. So Detroit at work and some of the other programs that we're seeing that have success, I would make those connections. That's not a question that's more of a statement. But also just looking at your report. You talk about the responsibility of the board review has grown beyond its mandated duties. And you and I have talked about this. I believe the history of the board when they established this close to 100 years ago, they were nowhere near this many applications coming in. We weren't seeing this level of need. But now we do and we're investing a million dollars do we need to invest more? Should we just make it more of a pro forma if you are, if you have if you have a numbers that you can prove, then why did we go through all the paperwork in the masa nations, we know you need that level of relief. Let's work to get you that just to make it so much easier if we're putting in 252 days a year. And I really think that that number should be 267 if we just went with inflation that's how many days a year your whatever you members should be paid for. From where we are now. That really need to be looking at that you're talking about a sunset, the PACE program. You talk about the ability to be more flexible, but you said consider on page 11 versus demand or urge. We think you need that level of relief as well. And then what are we looking at as far as maybe you could answer this? What programs are you providing to your to the Board of Review that your clients who were supporting to help them move into sustainable employment or into entrepreneurship? What are the other programs that we're availing to them? And if we're not what can we do to make that happen?
Speaker 2
Councilmember finish here. You've pretty much had been walking through my head. And in I'm going to share a couple of things in but I'm trying not to say a whole lot because there's a lot that I'm working on with other departments. And but I'm going to share this. The Department of neighborhoods is in the mayor's office. I have no administrative authority. I can't go to another department and make them do anything I can only ask. However, the Department of neighborhoods provides a certain amount of critical support to the city like hope. So then a definite connection should be bought or have you in department in neighborhoods and working with an individual like Metro banks, who is constantly working at the terms of the work to get people employed in different meetings and different steps to three days a week. This is what he does as part of his job with the Department of neighborhoods, working with a re Solomon who's the director of Department of neighborhoods to make sure that we are connecting the dots as relates to access to those departments. To get the support that we need. This is how we begin to create that marriage that relationship that allows a more unified approach to getting those services to the city. And when I was talking about the events, this is a direct partnership with the Department of neighborhoods where we're going to go and we're going to literally bring the city county building to the neighborhood. We're looking at going to each department and finding that one thing that is critical to a person in our community and bring that to the neighborhood and we're going to spread that around the city. Right and making sure that people have access so they don't have to trek all the way downtown to file something. So they don't have to trek all the way downtown and pay $40 to park right and get frustrated because they were supposed to file something over here instead of over there. It is important to understand the demands and needs of the community and to begin to work through that relationship with the community. And again that providing them that access. And so, we have or are looking at again, how do we find what those key items are? Right and making sure that the community has access to those key items. And then is some some of those things are items that are not in this building. Some of those things are items that are controlled by the state of Michigan, whether it's health and human services, or any other state department, it may be federally controlled, right in terms of Veteran Affairs. So but again, working with all of these agencies, to make sure that we're bringing the right resources and the right kind of support so that people don't have that long arduous walk and fight to just try to get the simple help that they're looking for. If I have a hope application, and nobody in the house has a job. I feel bad. Literally. If I'm not trying to figure out how to help get this person to work. Because the average person that I talked to on the phone, they don't want to be sitting at home, they want to go to work, they want a job, but they may have an issue. They may there may be somebody in the household that wants to work and but they have a legal issue. That's sitting out there, but may not understand that it can be expunged. And this is how they're going to get to a better place in life or they don't have access to the right education. So how do we connect them to that? Right so we have the this is an amazing city, and there's a lot of things that's available to us. But it seems to be bad. Nobody is taking these amazing things that we have and putting it in the hands of those that need it. And that's what we're looking to do.
Speaker 3
Alright well Godfather I support that and motion to put into that executive session but into a closing resolution. A an ERP and urging the administration to work with whatever review to identify partnerships that may not be there and to send the border view to a lien process if you haven't already been through one to find efficiencies where we can improve the process and improve the quality of life of your clients. Thank you, sir.
President Sheffield
All right motion has been made and Hearing no objections that action will be taken. And then
Speaker 3
in addition, I do want to thank your efforts in a border review for looking to get people banked as well. And this is something that came out of the wheelchair racing Taskforce. And I also want to thank my colleague, Member Santiago Romero for pointing to the Board of Review, Miss Nina Pena, who sat on the Wilkinson racing Task Force, who was the leader for the city. For bank on and what I didn't know was that Derek head, along with one of our former colleagues led the way to get bank on to become a program in the city of Detroit. And so there's a long history there with City Council involvement and now knowing that we have one of our Board of Review members, who was so passionate about getting Detroiters bank, it just makes me very proud and very pleased to see the direction that we're going in and how we also have now people who are passionate about getting people bank sitting at the border review as well for just another tool to help support our residents. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you, sir.
President Sheffield
Thank you. Member Benson Member Santiago Ramiro. Thank you, Madam
Speaker 7
President. Good morning. I too, have a lot of love for you. Thank you so much for the work that you do. We really do appreciate it. And given time, I will just jump right into questions. A lot of the questions that I had have already been asked. One of the questions I was going to ask is if you're working together with the lean team, you mentioned that you're looking to simplify our process and our application, simply just one application for all the resources. Have you reached out to the lean team to support you in evaluating the process. So far? Through
Speaker 2
the Chair? Yes, actually, we worked with the lean team a couple of different times, getting ready to circle back because again, as we work through this universal process, we need to make sure that again, everybody that needs to be at the table is at the table. So so that we can again make us very, very efficient, because it can be very simple.
Speaker 7
The chair it is and just really grateful that we have a lean team to support with this. We mentioned you mentioned the PACE program is going to sunset soon. What would we need to be able to continue a program like the PACE program,
Speaker 2
a change in state law through the chair. It was initially enacted again, when Governor Whitmer signed into law. It was actually extended due to the ravioli lawsuit there were some changes because of reasonably safely sunset July one of 2023. But due to that lawsuit and some other issues that arose from from that settlement and what was actually came out of that particular case. State legislators were forced to extend it to more years. The
Speaker 7
Chair Thank you that's helpful. I knew we had this program. I didn't know the the the origin of it. So that's helpful to know we can't or can't do or what it's what's needed to be able to provide a program like that. So thank you really just have some thoughts based on what you've shared. We start down Well I agree, either a postcard, or really what came to mind and you mentioned visuals. I thought more of an infographic or more than a Kia directions like very simplified, easy to read, easy to engage with notification. So as we're thinking about how to better process I hear you also thinking about how we deliver that work. So thinking about, you know, some more infographics if not just a postcard because frankly, I am someone that just sold throw away a postcard but if it has a picture of a house that says you know your home, whatever the case may be like just show what what it is. I think that it's a little bit more engaging. So I think we're on the right track. They're happy to support you and your events that you mentioned you want to do this year to be a little bit more intentional and focused. If you ever want to do anything in District Six happy to to join you in those efforts. And just my my last comments is we definitely do need this outreach position. I hear you doing wraparound services, where this liaison will hopefully provide that for folks as well. That way you can just focus on your role do that really well and have this outreach position that I know we want them to let residents know how to engage with with the board but I think I'm also hearing a need for wraparound services. So so that person should also be able to provide case management essentially, which I know board members do. So thank you for your work. I really appreciate it. Thank you Madam President.
President Sheffield
Right. Thank you council member member Young.
Speaker 8
Thank you, Madam President. May mehandi Gray was happy with you. Always good to see you man. Let you like Ramin man everybody loves everywhere you go. It's never a negative thing. And I just want to say I am so appreciative of all the work that you have done. I know that I was having a program at butzel Family Center and there was a woman who was literally tears and I've said this before and I said is getting that homes are more than bricks and beams your hopes and dreams and work that you have done just to be able to help people keep their roof over their heads during these extremely difficult times, is just such a blessing. And it's so good to work with someone who's not only passionate, but also is out there doing the work every day to make this happen. You have no idea how much of a blessing you are to me and how much burden you have taken. off of my office of people getting called because I'm inundated with calls all the time about stuff. And so the fact that you address this and that you help this and I get the email so we took care of this. This is done and we don't have to worry about that anymore. It's just such a blessing. So for Obama, our audience want to say thank you, sir. Job well done. I just want to ask you very quickly kind of piggyback off the question that member romero so eloquently talked about turns the PACE program, as we know is about to sunset pretty soon. I just wanted to know what would be the impact of that program going away? I know we have about 12,400 home owners be processed through that program to tell me what would be the impact of that program going away?
Speaker 2
Honestly, right now is unknown. But here's what I need you to chair to understand that we always have folks who are transitioning ownership in the city, Detroit, and that transitioning of ownership can be through various ways they will purchase property, they will be given property and they will be heirs to property and sometimes when they're either given or their heir to that property is coming with debt that they may not have started themselves but are now responsible for. So when you start talking about again changing the direct the trajectory of a person's life and making them stable. You have to consider the fact that that is one of the largest assets that a person will have in their entire life and will have more value than most things that they will ever even purchase or anything else that they will purchase. So to lose that to lose that a person not just loses their home. They will they lose their financial future. They lose their dignity. And unfortunately, in some cases, it will also result in the loss of life. So that's how serious we are in terms of what we're talking about. I can't give you an actual number, but I can give you the seriousness of the circumstances in which we're talking
Speaker 8
about because this is the only program for my understanding where people can give assistance, retro actively. So after this has happened, you can get assistance through that. And so I think that's a big thing. And I'm sure that's something that we probably will talk to the state about, but it kind of brings me to my next question. I just want to ask you a little bit i know i appropriate some money for your advertising budget. And I just want to know how has that assisted you in terms of being able to get more people involved in the whole application process? And do you have like a goal of how many people in Detroit that are asking for are giving it what that what that what that gap is and what that percentage is? Or we do you know if it's, if it's the people that want it that are giving you the 70% 80% Do you have Is it a year to year comparison that you use for that metric or is it 510 1520 year comparison out
Speaker 2
through the chair? I think right now, it's still relatively a large number of people in this city that still may not be familiar with. I'll just say not just the whole program, but just tax responsibility. In general, right? Because I look at now it's about the hope and property taxes all together. Because don't take typically never speaking about one and that's speaking about the other. So, you know, I just simply believe that we have to do a much better job of making sure that every property owner at whatever level if it is a homeowner or landlord if it is a commercial industrial property, if it's a guy that has a cell phone tower, understanding his obligation and responsibility, and then what assistance is available for them.
Speaker 8
Has the advertising budget helped you at all in terms of being able to reach out or you get a metric to turn to how many people been able to get that based on the advertising budget? So
Speaker 2
the It's a couple of ways we can look at that. Right? so because the support is actually provided to us to HRD in additional outreach. So there's a lot of besides the mailings and so forth. There is a lot of door knocking, or our that goes on with that as well.
Unknown Speaker
A television,
Unknown Speaker
no television.
Unknown Speaker
Okay, I don't know if I should do this in your bug.
Unknown Speaker
About subject later. Thank you. That's all my questions. Always good to see you, sir.
President Sheffield
All right, thank you member young member Doha.
Speaker 9
Thank you, Madam President. And good morning to Mr. Dowell, one of my favorite public servants, as everybody is stating, you can do no wrong in my eyes, but just incredibly thankful. Just for your engagement. You spend a lot of time on our community meetings in district seven, you spend time on the doors you spend times you know, it's other community meetings I've went to that did not know or expect to see you there and you're there. And I think that speaks to you know a lot tremendously to your dedication to our residents and I really appreciate that I believe is really genuine, and you don't see that a lot. And so thank you for everything you do, as well as the board. That being said, can you just touch a little bit more about how you incorporate feedback from taxpayers from community stakeholders into operational improvements for the Board of Review, and with some of their suggestions that you have taken to even help move the Board of Review a little bit further.
Speaker 2
Thank you for the question. Through the Chair. You know, this is where you have to realize where a person is in life. I have sat with property owners who were incarcerated and just getting home trying to figure it out to actually going to intensive care in the hospital and sitting with family when they're trying to figure out you know what's going to happen next, relative to the family member that they're about to lose in so in those moments, you begin to see the struggle of placement, excuse me.
Speaker 2
It was a recent occurrence that I was at and I'm just thinking about that family member that that someone just lost. But you see me there a family is going through can help with the pm involved
Speaker 2
if you don't help you notice, this is simple
Speaker 9
and that is exactly what I'm talking about right there. Mr. Dowell just from conversations you and I've had offline you you're really in there and the community and you take your position very seriously. And I am grateful and thankful. I don't think we can thank you with enough with words. But you know, I asked that question just so you had opportunity to put it out there because even my residents come to me and speak so very highly of you and are so thankful for the work you've done to even help them with their lives. Someone losing their home is not a simple thing. Oftentimes we talk about it in numbers. But when you're on the ground, and you see folks and their families affected and them being scared that they're not going to have a place to live, that's a very serious thing. And so I appreciate you and your dedication to taking this seriously did not mean to make you cry. But, and that's just going into my next question, we talked about the Property Tax Reform Act. What kind of suggestions based off your experiences because you have those boots on the ground? You are in the community every single day? What are some of the suggestions that we could send up to Lansing and let them know hey, you know, for a city like Detroit, this is what's works here in Detroit. What works in Detroit doesn't necessarily work the same in Grand Rapids or other cities around the state. What are some of the recommendations, just from your experience and how you've helped move us forward here we'll hope applications right. What are some of the suggestions you would provide the Michigan legislature?
Speaker 2
It starts with a couple of things when you have to look at first of all the tax system itself as it is right now. You know, we have a lot of challenges as relates to the tax system itself. Because Michigan and especially Detroit has a lot of aging properties. You know, assessing 40% is technical 60% is art. And the reality of it is is that the city of Detroit itself is you know over is older than the United States. It's over 300 years old. And so when you have properties that's in excess of 100 years, that you know have not been maintained or you know things that needs to be adjusted or looked at, you have to consider the platform in which is valued and but at the same time is how do you fix it because the reality of it is the process for what it is, is the best right now. There's just some adjustments that needs to be made in terms of how it's done. And I'm just gonna gonna briefly say this is ABC. Right now you're talking about the assessing process, and what happens you in terms of valuing property, but you yourselves this body is going through the budget process. And so at the end of both of these things, in the state equalized value happens at the state level must say that equalization has done a calculation process is utilized to determine whether or not a municipality can meet the debt that is created. And if it can't, a factor will be applied to make sure that enough revenue was collected to meet that debt. And that's part of the calculation process. That's why the assessor is more responsible for applying the millage than a treasurer because the administrative lead is responsible for the assessment role. So how do we make that balance? How do we get that balance to occur? And so we have to look at again, how things are done. What's the uniformity process and then at the same time, at the same time, how do we adjust for those those properties that we need to adjust? Right and then at the same time, make sure that we're not harming the debt that we have to service and sometimes that balance so some years ago, some years ago, was down river it was either ecourse or trend. They've made a uniform approach to to adjusting. Get commercial properties in their in their community. And equalization equalization director came back and put a factor across it didn't make any difference because whatever they it was reduced, it wound up getting put back because they wouldn't have had the money to pay their bills. So you know, it is a very challenging task. But at the same time, we have to look at ways to make sure that whatever that process is, you know, takes into account all of those things as time progresses. And then once you're able to do that once you're able to do that and see where you are, then you can easily look at and more efficiently talk about those benefits that you can add to that because at the end of the day, doesn't matter whether it's a tax credit for a new construction of a commercial property that's going up or a tax credit for a cause it's really the same thing, a tax credit under a hope exemption for somebody not to pay their taxes, right. The reality of it is I'm still expecting to get my check at the end of the week. And how is that going to happen? If there's no money to pay?
Speaker 9
And I appreciate you just need me to speaking on that and that you know, as we are as they move forward, obviously they need to tap into your expertise. And I'd be willing to go into Lancer with you to ensure that that happens because again, Detroit you talk about the robust history of Detroit. But again, one of the biggest cities is the biggest city in our state but one of the biggest cities in our country and has faced challenges, but has you know, we met those challenges and bounced back time. And time again. But, you know, state law is where, you know, most of these policies are carved. And so you know, I think the legislature has to do a better job of recognizing this is largest city in the state and and so goes Michigan or so goes Detroit so goes Michigan, right? But I'd be interested to have further conversations and then even possibly, as my team and I were discussing maybe start a roundtable as well with some Michigan Legislature legislators to discuss on property tax reform policy so thank you for all you do again sorry I made you cry but but again, I just appreciate you so much for always being there for our people. Thank you, Madam President.
President Sheffield
All right. Thank you. All right, Mr. Don. Well, we appreciate you so much. Thank you for being here. Do you have anything additional?
Speaker 2
So I again, I just want to close by saying I thank all of you through the chair. One of the things that I do when I actually get up in the morning, is I think the fact that you allow me to serve you. I think it's important that no matter what we do or where we are in life, we appreciate what we have and appreciate those that we are responsible for. So again, I just thank you for what you allow me to do.
President Sheffield
Thank you. We appreciate you as well Mr. dunwell. Alright, thank you so much. That will conclude this budget hearing and we will be in touch Mr.
Unknown Speaker
Dowell. Thank you. Thank you sir.
President Sheffield
Right, we will move into our next budget. Hearing for the office. Of the Inspector General.
Unknown Speaker
Okay.
President Sheffield
Right whenever you're ready to begin, the floor is yours. Microphone. Just press the bottom.
Speaker 10
There you go. Good afternoon, Madam President and members of Detroit City Council. This I believe is my last budget presentation as my term expires in August this year. So first, I take this opportunity to thank this honorable body, the administration, my fellow city employees and most importantly, the members of the public for the support that my office received from the community of Detroit during my tenure at the office. And I hope this year will not be an exception. As I again implore and make my case for additional funding for the upcoming fiscal year for the Office of Inspector General. The budget presentation I make today is not just to this honorable body, but it is also one that I make to the public, for whom we ultimately serve and whose money we are seeking to expand. Generally when we talk about spending money, most people want to know where and how the money will be spent. The wearer in this instance is the Office of Inspector General. But before I get to the how I think it's important that I share with the public. Why it is that the Office of Inspector General was established. The 
purpose of our existence is clearly defined in the charter and that is to ensure honesty and integrity in city government. To do that, the charter requires that the Office of Inspector General be independent, so that when we investigate or audit to detect root out and prevent waste, abuse, fraud and corruption in how we govern, or how and with whom we contract. We do so in an objective and an unbiased manner without any internal or outside influence. And I believe thus far we've been able to do just that. To that and it is important to note that neither my office nor I can investigate or audit anything or everything. The charter does not provide the Office of Inspector General or the inspector general with such latitude or omnipotent authority. Instead, the charter sets limit on who and what we can investigate or audit. In other words, what we do is driven by the charter. More specifically, we are charged to investigate the official conduct of a public servant which includes contractors and those who want to be a contractor with the city. But the investigation or the audit must involve matters concerning waste, abuse, fraud, or 
corruption. So how do we investigate or audit we start with the review of the complaints, which includes evaluating and vetting of the complaints. For example, doesn't the complaint involve a city official employee or contractor? Does it involve an official action? Does the Office of Inspector General have jurisdiction? Or does another agency or entity have jurisdiction over the complaint? I mean, is it a legal issue or a legal matter? Is it a question of violation of ethics? Is it about hostile or toxic work environment or is it about waste, abuse, fraud or corruption involving the city? Once we determine we have the authority and the jurisdiction, we can initiate an investigation or an audit and when we investigate the charter, not I or my office, the charter requires that all public servants and contractors cooperate, that no one can retaliate anyone for cooperating or participating in our investigation or audit and the charter furthermore authorizes our office with access to all city records. And it is based on our investigations and audits that we make our findings. So how do we make our findings we gather all the relevant evidence. We identify and seek information from those who can provide us with the context to the complaint. We interview witnesses and we review records. For example, timetables, timesheets, invoices. charts, graphs, audio visual recordings, emails, internet searches, court documents. In essence, we gather all the pieces of a puzzle. Then we organize the pieces and analyze the evidence. Sometimes we do that by creating a timeline. Sometimes we compiled tables, and sometimes we make charts. Sometimes we juxtapose information from up and down and from right to left. This is when we start to connect the pieces of the puzzle together. And when we finish connecting the pieces, then we make our findings. What does the picture say? What does it look like? And then we ask, Are we being critical? Would our findings affect anybody? If so, that person has a right to refute or dispute our draft findings. So we provide the affected party with an opportunity by inviting them to submit a written response to our draft findings or through an administrative hearing so consider a picture a puzzle. There might be a missing piece or two. And those one or two pieces could make a huge difference on what the entire picture may look like. So show us or give us that piece. So that we can see the whole picture or show us how we can look at the picture differently. Maybe we were looking at the picture upside down will come and show us and turn that picture around so that we can see it the correct way. Our goal is not just to find waste, abuse, fraud or corruption when there is one. Our goal is to be accurate when we find waste, abuse, fraud or corruption. After the puzzle is complete, we close the investigation by drafting an internal memorandum with our find with our final findings or issuing a formal report with our final findings. Now you know who we are, what we do, and how we do it. So the next reasonable question for this body and the public would be What did you do with the money we gave you last year? In short, we did a lot. So let's look at calendar year 2023. We received and reviewed 295 complaints and closed 300 We initiated 21 investigations and closed 17. All of the closed investigations are summarized and reported in our quarterly report, which in accordance with the charter. Let's continue on to calendar year 20 through 2023. We also conducted one administrative hearing issued for interim suspensions defended our position during an appeal of interim suspensions before this honorable body. We also defended lawsuits filed against us. Yes, lawsuits were filed against me, my staff and the office. We defended those lawsuits by working with the law department attorneys and outside legal counsel and got those cases dismissed by the courts. We worked with local state and federal authorities, with some finally resulting in criminal prosecution earlier this year. And to save money and resources we conducted joint training sessions with the Detroit Public School community District Office of Inspector General and each of us in our office attended various trainings to maintain our respective certifications. So let's look at more in calendar year 2023. We also published four internal memorandums and official reports. We published four quarterly reports and timely fashion. We published four editions of good government newsletter and you can read them all on our website or the city's website.
+1
purpose of our existence is clearly defined in the charter and that is to ensure honesty and integrity in city government. To do that, the charter requires that the Office of Inspector General be independent, so that when we investigate or audit to detect root out and prevent waste, abuse, fraud and corruption in how we govern, or how and with whom we contract. We do so in an objective and an unbiased manner without any internal or outside influence. And I believe thus far we've been able to do just that. To that and it is important to note that neither my office nor I can investigate or audit anything or everything. The charter does not provide the Office of Inspector General or the inspector general with such latitude or omnipotent authority. Instead, the charter sets limit on who and what we can investigate or audit. In other words, what we do is driven by the charter. More specifically, we are charged to investigate the official conduct of a public servant which includes contractors and those who want to be a contractor with the city. But the investigation or the audit must involve matters concerning waste, abuse, fraud, or +1
corruption. So how do we investigate or audit we start with the review of the complaints, which includes evaluating and vetting of the complaints. For example, doesn't the complaint involve a city official employee or contractor? Does it involve an official action? Does the Office of Inspector General have jurisdiction? Or does another agency or entity have jurisdiction over the complaint? I mean, is it a legal issue or a legal matter? Is it a question of violation of ethics? Is it about hostile or toxic work environment or is it about waste, abuse, fraud or corruption involving the city? Once we determine we have the authority and the jurisdiction, we can initiate an investigation or an audit and when we investigate the charter, not I or my office, the charter requires that all public servants and contractors cooperate, that no one can retaliate anyone for cooperating or participating in our investigation or audit and the charter furthermore authorizes our office with access to all city records. And it is based on our investigations and audits that we make our findings. So how do we make our findings we gather all the relevant evidence. We identify and seek information from those who can provide us with the context to the complaint. We interview witnesses and we review records. For example, timetables, timesheets, invoices. charts, graphs, audio visual recordings, emails, internet searches, court documents. In essence, we gather all the pieces of a puzzle. Then we organize the pieces and analyze the evidence. Sometimes we do that by creating a timeline. Sometimes we compiled tables, and sometimes we make charts. Sometimes we juxtapose information from up and down and from right to left. This is when we start to connect the pieces of the puzzle together. And when we finish connecting the pieces, then we make our findings. What does the picture say? What does it look like? And then we ask, Are we being critical? Would our findings affect anybody? If so, that person has a right to refute or dispute our draft findings. So we provide the affected party with an opportunity by inviting them to submit a written response to our draft findings or through an administrative hearing so consider a picture a puzzle. There might be a missing piece or two. And those one or two pieces could make a huge difference on what the entire picture may look like. So show us or give us that piece. So that we can see the whole picture or show us how we can look at the picture differently. Maybe we were looking at the picture upside down will come and show us and turn that picture around so that we can see it the correct way. Our goal is not just to find waste, abuse, fraud or corruption when there is one. Our goal is to be accurate when we find waste, abuse, fraud or corruption. After the puzzle is complete, we close the investigation by drafting an internal memorandum with our find with our final findings or issuing a formal report with our final findings. Now you know who we are, what we do, and how we do it. So the next reasonable question for this body and the public would be What did you do with the money we gave you last year? In short, we did a lot. So let's look at calendar year 2023. We received and reviewed 295 complaints and closed 300 We initiated 21 investigations and closed 17. All of the closed investigations are summarized and reported in our quarterly report, which in accordance with the charter. Let's continue on to calendar year 20 through 2023. We also conducted one administrative hearing issued for interim suspensions defended our position during an appeal of interim suspensions before this honorable body. We also defended lawsuits filed against us. Yes, lawsuits were filed against me, my staff and the office. We defended those lawsuits by working with the law department attorneys and outside legal counsel and got those cases dismissed by the courts. We worked with local state and federal authorities, with some finally resulting in criminal prosecution earlier this year. And to save money and resources we conducted joint training sessions with the Detroit Public School community District Office of Inspector General and each of us in our office attended various trainings to maintain our respective certifications. So let's look at more in calendar year 2023. We also published four internal memorandums and official reports. We published four quarterly reports and timely fashion. We published four editions of good government newsletter and you can read them all on our website or the city's website. Speaker 10
Now let's look at fiscal year 23. Which starts July 1 22 and ends on June 30 2023. We received and reviewed 321 complaints closed 339. We initiated 24 investigations and closed 16 and completed and closed one audit. Again all of our closed investigations or an audit are summarized and reported in our quarterly reports. During fiscal year 23. We also conducted one administrative hearing issued six interim suspensions and six departments. We defended our position during appeal to city council and we also defended lawsuits filed against us. We worked with local state and federal authorities. Over the years we've worked with hud hud OIG, US Department of Transportation Federal Transit Authority Office of Inspector General, sic tarp, and various municipal inspector general offices around the country. We worked with the US Attorney's Office, the Michigan Attorney General's office, and the Wayne County prosecutor's office. Some of our investigative partners are now referring matters to us for further information and review. What else did we do in fiscal year 23? We published four internal memorandums and official reports and one audit report. We published four quarterly reports on timely basis. In addition, we published four editions of good government newsletter. You can find all of our published materials in our website for the city's website but I also have more I have updates for this year. As of 3:37pm. Yesterday, we received and reviewed 59 complaints and closed 56 We currently have nine complaints that are still pending and as I left the office last night, we received five additional more complaints. During the last three months in calendar year 2024 We initiated four investigations and closed five currently we have 22 investigations and one audit that's pending. We also published four official reports and of course as I speak, we're currently working on the first quarterly report for calendar year 2024. And we are currently also collecting publication materials for the spring edition of good government newsletter. But there's more. Because you see after six grueling years of joint investigation with SIG tarp and the Michigan Attorney General's Office, felony charges were finally levied against David Holman, owner of Denman and David McDonald, former Denman employee earlier this year. In that regard, yesterday, as part of the plea agreement, Mr. Holman wire transferred $1.25 million to the city as part of a $4.72 million restitution payment to the city of Detroit. It took us six years but for this I'd like to give a special shout out. And a thank you to Jennifer Beverly, our attorney for the office, and Deputy Inspector General Kamal Marable, who worked tirelessly with CIG tarp and the Attorney General's office to represent advocate and coordinate the city's interest in the joint investigation to get our money back. As of March of this year, we issued two interim suspensions to Detroit environmental solution and its owner David Gillespie. We initiated and finalized barment of Bobby Ferguson and his companies. We continue to work with local and federal law enforcement. And as a result, we anticipate more charges to come down of course, there will be more administrative hearings, interim suspensions and departments in the next couple of months. Yes, my staff will keep me busy until the very end. So this is how we spent our funding thus far. But I'm also proud to report that our office as part of the community of inspector general's around the country is well represented. Several of my staff sit on different boards in the association of Inspector General which comprises of offices of inspector general's around the United States and Canada. The Office also take special pride in the fact that Deputy Inspector General Kamal Marable, was recently elected by his peers to be a member of the executive board for the Association of Inspector General. We did a lot but who did all this work? While I hold the title of Inspector General, and while most publications bear my name, the work itself is done. By all of us in the office. Well, I ultimately bear the responsibility on all OIG matters. Everyone in the office participates and contributes to everything we do as an office we have two executive administrative assistants who coordinate and field all phone calls, check mail, email, web submissions on a daily basis for complaints. They meet, greet and assist those who visit our office and they assist and provide valuable support to everyone in the office. In addition, our two attorneys advise the office on all administrative hearing and department matters. They coordinate with attorneys who represent different contractors and witnesses. They review all legal matters that comes to the office and work with the law department attorneys and outside legal counsel. And in addition to all of that, they handle complex investigations. Our two forensic auditors who combined have 45 years of experience as auditors, not only handle audits, but in fact, have also been handling many, many investigations. We also have two investigators, whose persistence and investigative techniques and skills are unparalleled. Lastly, what more can I say about this gentleman who sits next to me, the Deputy Inspector General, who handles just about everything in the office, and whose dedication to the mission of our office is unwavering. My staff and I meet on a regular basis. Everyone in the office is kept in the loop on all open assignments, to exchange our ideas and suggestions to challenge one another and more importantly, to provide different perspective to any issues or problems in our investigations and audit. We work together as each of us have different talent to offer to the office. So today, I come before you and the public and respectfully request that you provide our office with an additional $131,000 to the mayor's proposed OIG budget of 1.7 for the next fiscal year. So I believe the next question will be, well, what are you going to do with that $131,000 And for that, I will turn to Mr. Marable.
Speaker 11
Good afternoon. First of all, thank you, Ida for those kind words. It is much appreciate it and we're going to absolutely miss you. So the position that we are looking to add is a new position that we're creating, which right now will be called the OIG information, information analysts and the position of OIG information analysts will allow us the ability to improve and focus our data collection processes, as well as coordinate the OIG specific platforms from an administrative position. We employ systems and platforms that are not widely used in the city if at all. Our case management system, our email messaging, data storage program, and video conferencing are not routinely used among other city departments. So as well as so as well as maintaining our chapter mandated confidentiality. This person this position would administer the app or merchant services. The OIG information analysts would also coordinate and assist all staff and retrieval of required information from any city departments or external entities. One of the looking at our efficiencies are investigators and auditors spend a lot of time going back and forth with various cities, city agencies collecting the required data. So what we're looking to do is have a person that can streamline one create a an expertise, possibly could net would do it to to get us access to some of these systems. So we can we can close the time and I know that our investigations take you know, a long time and a lot of is because we're thorough, but most of that is spent on waiting on information. So we'd like to cut that down.
Speaker 10
So why should this honorable body provide the additional funding? Here's why. It's simple. We as the city must invest in what we do to ensure that we produce quality work product and provide quality service. Time has come where technology now plays an integral part and role and the very definition of quality. We live in an age where technology is just simply unavoidable. And worse, it is fast changing. We live in a society where everything now is turning into data and data keeps pouring in every minute of the day. I assure you right now, someone somewhere is collecting data, and everything imaginable and unimaginable. But all this data is no good if you can't extract information. My term expires a month into the next fiscal year. And it is my sincerest wish that the Office continues to do its best work but with more support James my predecessor built a strong foundation for the Sophists. I simply added a floor or two. And I would like the office to continue to grow. It's important that the city of Detroit including the Office of Inspector General, evolve with the changing time and not lag behind. If I didn't persuade you by now, I would please ask you to consider the charter. The charter requires this honorable body to ensure that the Office of Inspector General has sufficient funding to operate to that end to ensure funding. But charter also requires that the Office of Inspector General has proportional funding through an ordinance which I believe the honorable body is currently working on. In fact, the new position described to you by Mr. Marable is a position we have already identified and included in our proposed proportional funding. So I am respectfully seeking your help today. So that we may continue to sufficiently operate to ensure honesty and integrity in our government. That concludes my presentation for today. And again, I want to thank this honorable body. For the years, we've worked together. And I really appreciate all of your support. Thank you and I will take any questions I or Mr. Marable. All right,
President Sheffield
thank you so much inspector high and we appreciate you as well. You definitely will be missed. It's been an honor to work with you, especially with the proportional funding ordinance, which you kind of briefly spoke to, but we appreciate all the great work that you do and continue to do. I just had a quick question. You mentioned that there was $4 million coming to the city from restitution from demand. Yeah, curious. As to any other cases that you pursued? Is there any additional funding that is owed outstanding to the city of Detroit and then also had we thought about possibly earmarking any of that money as it comes probably just sort of general fund for a specific use that can be used to help prevent, you know, situation? I'm not sure what exactly could be used for legacy business funds, you know, contracting. I'm not sure. But have you thought about maybe earmarking the restitution that does come to the city for a specific use so that it won't just go to the general fund.
Speaker 10
So this restitution for $4.72 million is the money that the city actually spent Okay, and cleaning up the toxic dirt that dunman had dumped to the city properties where they demolish the properties. So yes, we can set aside those funds and I would love to get the $4.72 million for the Office of Inspector General. But it's difficult and yes, we have collected restitution payments or for we did have a case pertaining to pension the widow was wrongfully collecting her former husband's pension and it was quite a bit sum of money. The Wayne County prosecutor's office and we agreed to settle for $50,000 Because by then, of course, she spent of money and she was required as part of the plea agreement again, to provide the city $10,000. We didn't issue a press release because it wasn't to shame that particular individual. But we did ask her to write a letter of apology to the Detroit Fire and Police Retirement System, which I hope the board members received a copy up. So we do from time to time, do receive restitution payments, but the restitution payment it actually belongs to it actually originally belong to the city of Detroit as a whole. But yes, it would be great if we can figure out something that can be set aside for use for the office.
President Sheffield
Okay. All right. Thank you. And can you speak a little bit about what you're doing to market the office so that the general public knows about it? I know you all do a newsletter just any type of communications and media or just anything about educating the residents on what the offices what it's used for how to report excetera
Speaker 10
so we do get a lot of complaints from residents of Detroit. I have lots of ears and eyes out there in the public who report just about everything. But I think that is one of my shortcomings of that I did not reach out to the community in mass, which I hope will be taken up by the next Inspector General and staff. But we also generated a lot of reports that caught the media's attention. Not always positive, but it did advertise to the public that we are here and more importantly, we can clean up our own dirt a mess. We don't need the feds to come down marching in. We don't need an emergency manager to come and help and rescue the city of Detroit. We can clean up our own mess. All right. All right. Thank
President Sheffield
you. Thank you so much, Inspector ha. And we will go to questions. President Pro Tem Tate.
Speaker 6
Thank you, Madam President. And I saw what you did right there, clean up our own dirt. Nice. I just want to say and I know that there are some people who wake up and they are miserable every day and they hate and they call into this public forum and they hate when we give kudos and props to those who do a yeoman's job on behalf of the residents of the city of Detroit and you're gonna be miserable. Again, because I want to thank you for the work that you do and have done six years have passed by quickly. There have been not one issue that we have had at least I can say myself personally with your office. You have done a tremendous job in terms of the audits that you provide, but even more so in terms of your leadership. You started off I mean, you talk about what your team has done and you don't take that credit yourself because you understand the necessity of having a strong team. You absolutely have a strong deputy not sitting next to you in Deputy Inspector General America who has been the bridge between the two administrations so to speak. So certainly shout out to you as well, sir, for the work that you've done. But literally no issue whatsoever. Thank you so much. And we get a lot of folks again, who call in who don't understand what your role is. I'm glad that you got an opportunity to run through that, but also show the proof of performance as well which is extremely important. It's not just somebody saying it, you are showing us the young people say receipts, so great job with that. Madam president I would like to place into Executive Session. The request for the $131,000 for the IT analyst for the Office of Inspector General.
President Sheffield
Okay, Hearing no objections that action will be taken. Yeah,
Speaker 6
and I have no no questions. I mean, literally, you come you ask you shall receive this as it relates to me because every penny that we have placed into this office, we have seen a return, not for revenue, but in terms of integrity, and re renewing the spirit that we want people to feel in city government. trust, transparency and hard work. And you all have done that. So thank you so much, and wish you all the best and no, we're not going yet. But this would be our last budget hearing. So again, great job. Thank you. It's been an honor.
President Sheffield
Thank you. Thank you. Remember, yeah,
Speaker 8
thank you, Madam President. You came you saw you conquered. We appreciate you and your service and your hard work. You will truly be missed you really, you know, I don't mean to sound too cliche, but you definitely made a difference. And with that being said, I have no questions but you will be missed. Thank
President Sheffield
you so much. Remember, you remember Santiago Ramiro?
Speaker 7
Thank you, Madam President. Good afternoon. Afternoon heartedly agree. Thank you for all the work that you've done. Since I've started really have been appreciative of you and the Auditor General, I think our independent agencies don't get enough love as you should. So thank you for the work that you do. My only question two brief ones. One is thank you for the suggestion of the additional staff member to help with the Office moving forward. But as you leave, do you have any other suggestions or recommendations for the office to make it more efficient to make it more accessible to make the work better?
Speaker 10
So I'm Mr. Marable. And through the Chair, Mr. Marable and I have been talking about this along with our staff members, and I believe we have lots of great ideas. I will reserve that for Mr. Marable when he interviews
Speaker 7
through the chair understood if you wouldn't mind sharing that in your newsletter as a goodbye for us what you think would be good for next steps? I'd appreciate it because I believe part of our work is leaving things better than how we found it. And I am I would support whatever suggestions you have as you head out. My next question is what are the majority of the complaints that you receive? What are they are they usually for waste? Are they usually for not providing service? What is the theme that you're seeing complaints coming down the pipeline from a lot
Speaker 10
of our complaints about our poor city services are people who receive tickets and they believe that they shouldn't have gotten tickets and they want me to come out and investigate which is not what we do. But we have seen a lot of complaints pertaining to time fraud more recently. So I think that is a new trend. We have lots of citizens out there. As I said before, who are our eyes and ears
Speaker 7
through the chair. What do you mean by time fraud?
Speaker 10
City employees committing time fraud meaning that they are they're supposed to be at work let's shall we say?
Unknown Speaker
Understood. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker
That's helpful.
Speaker 7
Is enjoy your next your next phase in your career? I thank you so much for the work that you've done for the city. Again, I follow you along before I was even elected when you were in COVID via zoom, and even back then you were fighting for the city. So just thank you so much for the work that you've done. I look forward to reading your suggestions as you and your tenure with us. Thank you. Thank you, Madam President.
President Sheffield
Thank you. Thank you, member Johnson.
Speaker 1
Thank you Madam President. And good afternoon. Thank you for your continued hard work. Congratulations on the restitution from demand. That is tremendous. I know and I'm sure you hear a lot of residents talk about the contaminated soil that was put in those lots and you know, people always point the finger at the city, which is understood. And so I'm just extremely grateful that you continue to pursue that to make sure that the contractor who was responsible for it is held accountable for that so greatly appreciate it. There. Now I recently read through a report that you did relative to a director of a department and I was a little dismayed by the findings but want to ask you when you include recommendations for various people or entities, how do you do you follow up with those recommendations to identify whether or not the entities or the individuals take heed to them
Speaker 10
through the Chair? Yes, we do. But the Office of Inspector General and the inspector general does not have the authority to enforce the recommendations that we make. But again, my staff and I would discuss this and we came up with a brilliant idea, and that is to create a table and within our quarterly report where we list all of our recommendations and the status of our recommendations. So the department for sake of transparency and to encourage the departmental leadership to take some sort of action or at least to consider the recommendations. Because remember, we don't we can't possibly run all the departments because we don't have the expertise to, you know, to put a new sidewalk. So some of the recommendations we make might be might be very ideal and laudable but it may not be practical. We understand that. So we look to the leadership in that particular department to consider our recommendations and find an alternative way to take our recommendations. And improve the process. Okay, thank
Speaker 1
you. I appreciate that. And I am hopeful that your recommendations will be adhered to and I will personally follow up because I was a bit surprised by some of the direction or advice that was given to kind of circumvent the process. So, with that, I look forward to our interviews as we move forward with the person that succeeds you I know that you have somebody your right hand, if you will, that has has worked alongside of you very closely and has been with the department for some time in you generally it's just a natural fit right in so I'm hopeful that Mr. Mirror will will apply for the position and that we have the opportunity to interview and I wish you extremely much success on your future endeavors as you continue to move forward. But thank you so much for your commitment to just ensuring that we are on the always upstanding and on the right side of things here within the city. Thank you. Thank you, Madam President.
President Sheffield
All right. Thank you member Johnson.
Speaker 10
Thank you, Madam President and members of Detroit Council. They really appreciated all the support you've provided to our office.
President Sheffield
Thank you. All right. We appreciate you as well. Anything additional from LPD? No. Okay.
Speaker 11
Good. Was the chair just in terms of that recommendation that was made to put the 131,000 and we do have a placeholder position that we would like placed in our budget. I know a lot of times when we ask for money, and it's just put there, it gets a little confusing on the back end. So we do have a position an IT position that is similar to the one that we're creating. So we're asking that that that position be put in our budget. Would you like
Speaker 6
to motion like the motion to place that item into executive session as well for discussion? Thank you. All
President Sheffield
right, Hearing no objections that will be added to our Executive Session. All right. Thank you. So much for being here. Thank you. Thank you guys. And that will conclude our morning budget hearings and others a 1pm. committee hearing, Neighborhood and Community Services and so if there's nothing else to come before us we will stand in recess until 2pm