Recording from my living room in beautiful Marietta, Georgia. You are listening to the thinking cluesive Podcast, episode three.
I'm your host Tim Vegas. Today I will be speaking with Marvin, Sharon and Dana Fialco, authors of the star Bella book series. Star Bella is a new series of books about a very courageous little girl with learning differences, who expresses her thoughts and feelings through music. The books are based on the real life experiences of Marvin and Sharon's daughter Tara, who exhibited a surprising musical talent when she was very young, but would later present perplexing challenges. Not able at the time to get a diagnosis, they were left with the mystery. Tara would not be diagnosed with autism until she turned 21. Tara now an adult went on to earn a degree in early childhood education. The female coach and I discussed what it was like to observe tears and amazing musical talent and how she developed her voice through melodies and lyrics. Dan if Jaco Tara's younger sister describes what it was like growing up with Tara, and what she has learned from having a sibling who is not like everyone else. All this more on the thing conclusive podcast. Thanks for listening.
Okay, I would like to welcome Marvin Sharon and Dana fee Alco. Authors of the star Bella book series to the thing conclusive podcast. Thank you so much for joining me and having a conversation.
Thank you so much for sitting. Thrilled to be here. And we admire so much about you know, the work you do to spread awareness of the benefits of inclusion. Oh,
well, it's my pleasure. I invited you on because I wanted you to talk to our listeners about what just a special thing you have with the star Bella series. And so to get started, I want to know how did you first get the idea about creating a book series called Star Bella.
Okay, first of all, my daughter Dana made up the name star Bella when she was around three years old and happens to have my daughter Tara's name right in the middle of it. So I feel that this was something that was just meant to happen before we even were aware that it was going to happen. So and my purpose for writing the start of this series is I wanted to bring that daughter Tara's dream of a bright new world of friendliness and acceptance to other children. I want children to feel safe and welcome to share what is special inside them to enhance their classroom environments. My daughter Tara, who's now an adult, self taught pianist and composer who deals with the challenges of autism. She was often teased and picked on in school and suffered consequential isolation. She came home to her beloved piano and wrote magical touching melodies and lyrics about a far more accepting world when she has a face each day. One of her songs Welcome to a bright new world became the inspiration. In this musical world, children play and get along and are accepted for exactly who they are. Tara went on to earn a certificate in early childhood education. I went to study buddy. Based on what we learned together, I wrote interactive shows for children incorporating terrorist music. Taran, I make props and scenery and care perform the shows in many preschools, kindergarten state programs and after school programs maintain it. My daughter Dana often accompanied Tara when she was home on college breaks. The star Bella's stories, the rose from my observations of the social challenges faced by the children in the schools and programs. The struggle is stories combined parents experiences with those of other children some of the wars and characters in Book Three featuring star Belle in school are the actual words of these children.
So what was thank you for that? Description? I'm curious as to how Dana's and Tara's relationship. How did how did that? How was that as far as you know, you starting to perform and also Dana, how would you feel about Tara and her musical ability and kind of seeing her as she as she grew as a person? Okay,
well, Tara and I are. We're fortunate in that we were both very musical as children and that was that enabled us to have Very special bonds through our music. And it's funny even hearing the question how I responded to her music and how we started because I feel like being the younger sister, I was born into a world of terrorist music in a way. And it's something that as children, we just developed a natural rapport that way because I always love to sing. And Tara played the piano as her life, lifeblood. So I grew up in a house that was always filled with magical music. And because Tara was my older sister, when I was really little, she would teach me her songs. She did write these magical lyrics about going to a bright new world. And we love to make recordings together we'd sit with with a cassette tape player, dating myself, but then we would make up our own radio shows. And at that point in her life, Tara love to tell stories, she would love to share her music, so and I was the one who was there. So whether I liked it or not, I was going to be performing her music. And I luckily, I did like it. So that was the way that we really grew up. So I didn't, it wasn't something that I could say was a choice. We just fell into it. And as we are sorry, yes, no, no, go ahead. I was gonna say, as we became a little bit older than we start performing in a more formal way, we had a, we had a regular gig on Friday nights at a local shopping center, and Tara would play her keyboard, and I would sing and we would make up these performances. And when Tara was 13, she wrote, she started, her music was maturing, and she started writing songs that sounded a little bit more like they had popular music potential. And I was meaning more adult type songs. And when I was around 13, I had the idea to start writing lyrics to her music at that point, she no longer wrote her own lyrics. And I thought we would start creating hits together, and we're writing songs. And that's when one of our songs a new beginning was born. I woke up one morning with the lyrics in my head to that song that she had named a new beginning. And we started the collaboration, the songwriters at that point.
That that's amazing. I'm also a musician. So I understand, I understand the kind of the process of some, sometimes things just come to you, and you don't even really, it's not even on purpose, but it's just happened. So I can definitely see that, that that, you know, the way that you're talking about music and the way that you're talking about your relationship with Tara. That it just seemed like, it seems like that music just really came out of you. And it was it was something that was already in your family. So it just sprung out of who who you were and who you both were Is that correct? Yes,
absolutely. And very much like the character of star Bella, Terra really did use music to express her feelings she wasn't, she didn't always know how to express her feelings verbally. So that was a way that she communicated with all of us and how we all could know what she was feeling. And I think one thing that, that unfortunately, Tara was exposed to as a child was a lot of cruelty from other children, which my mom was talking about as part of her inspiration to write this series. And as a young child, I was, of course witness to that. And again, being a little younger, I didn't always understand it. But one thing that Tara always infused her songs with was this sense of hope, and writing a song like Welcome to a bright new world, or I can find a gym full of happiness. It was really her dream of another world. So in addition to the music that was always filling my world, I always had this, this, this voice of inspiration, I guess, and the sense of of hope. I think we were a very, we were very hopeful family in general. And having you know, at the time when we're growing up, Tara didn't yet have a diagnosis, which, which was more common back then. But so so there was one thing that was very inspirational to me as a child was that my parents never expected any less of Tara than what she could do. And we're always motivating her and pushing her to do her very best. And I grew up with that sense of everyone having the not only the potential, but really, really the the obligation to do their best. And that's the way Tara was brought up. And I was brought up and that helped motivate me as well.
Now, Marvin and Sharon, are you both musically oriented?
No, not at all that Marvin has relatives who are musical on his side, but none of them are composers. Okay. So when you said about music just coming for us without thinking about it, we moved from our home in St. Louis to Honolulu, Hawaii, and my mom's night piano that I never played well at all. No music. On then Hawaii and Tara took to it as if it was a part of her. She started banging on the keys making noise driving us berserk. And then suddenly, we didn't know what she was discovering the sounds that the keys made. And then all of a sudden, we heard the miracle of melodies, she started to play all of her childhood songs, songs, she heard on the radio songs that she heard on CD, she even played music that she heard in the dentist's office, she, once we went to museums, it was showing a Chinese film and she came home and played the whole soundtrack to that music. And she said, Do you remember that? So it was very much of a miracle that she was able to play music by ear. And then shortly after she started to compose her own music. And go ahead you What instrument do you play?
I play the piano, bass and guitar. That's great. Yeah, great. Yeah, I learned I learned piano. First around four or five years old might my parents enrolled me in classes at the at the Piano Studio? And I continued lessons through high school. And then that's when I got into you know, rock and roll so. So when did so did Tara ever have any formal training in piano?
Yes, she's had many years of formal training better air. playing by ear was always surpassed what she did. As far as reading notes. She has her own personal styles. It's really quite beautiful and inspirational. And all of her music isn't just inspirational. She wrote music as a child about the wonders of nature, her feelings, and childhood interests like her cat in this circuit. So her music really reflected the world around her as well as her inner feelings. And in this star Bella books are here when Star Bella is like there is a little girl with learning differences, who expresses her feelings best through music, and the stories of Dr. Bella, follow her through three phases of her early growing up, book one feature star bell at home to feature star bell in the community. And children following star Bella and learning about her challenges and rooting for her to reach her goals. They find empathy for her character, so they care what happens to her when she becomes a member of a diverse, inclusive kindergarten classroom. In Book Three,
that was actually my experience with my daughter. She is six years old. And when we read book three together, she was very interested in what was going to happen next. So I don't know if there's any any plans for any further book series, but she was she was very interested in you know if there was going to be a continuing of the story. Well,
your question makes me very happy because I'm always very excited to hear the response of children who do not have special needs to this struggle of character. It seems that from the response we're getting, it's the children PHARMAC great affection for the character, which is what I was hoping for. And we do want to take star Mila further I would like to write a cookbook that shows the Brighton world children in Star Bella's class preparing a multicultural luau for Star Bella's birthday, and introducing you know entertainment, from their backgrounds, from their cultural backgrounds and also food from these backgrounds. The same. My goal is to hipstore Bella be discovered when she's performing as the rock star and actually traveling around the world with her musical messages of friendship and acceptance as a global ambassador of friendship. And so we do hope to take star Bella further. But our main goal now is to bring star Belen her messages to children
Children. Go ahead. Yeah. I I'm interested or actually I should mention to the people that are listening is that star Bella, the book series Book One, two and three? are, they're not your typical story book. In fact, when you open up the, when you open up the book, there, there are words for you to read that it's really meant to be read in, in conjunction with the CD. Is that correct?
Yes, yes, the stories all contain an audio CD. And they're fully narrated by Dana. And the music is performed by Tara. And Dana sings most of the songs. As a matter of fact, Dana performs 13 voices of the various characters. And the focus of the book is really on the audio. But the stories come to life through colorful kid appealing art done by a wonderful illustrator named Anton Petrov, whom I've worked with, he lives in New Zealand, and we collaborated over the internet to get the artwork done for the books.
Yes, the artwork is beautiful. And the also the narration and the music are all very striking, and very engaging. And like I said, when I did the book review of the of the series, I, you know, I didn't really want to, I didn't want this to skew my, what I thought of the book without having actually given it to my daughter and my kids to read, because I knew this was going to be for children. So I, I, you know, experienced it with them. And was very, I guess, pleased that they enjoyed the book so much. And we're so engaged with the book, right from the get go. I remember growing up listening to books on tape, and so I would have my little, you know, to actually, not even books on tape, I had a I had a record player. So I had, I had like, you know, the Disney books like Robin Hood, or I had, you know, Snow White or Pinocchio, and then I would have my record player. And then I put the record on, and I have my book, and they would play lines from the movie, and in the music from the movie, and it would be this whole experience. And that is exactly what it reminded me of. When we when we open this up. It was just this engaging experience, where I had you had the music, yeah, the narration you had the pictures, and then you just kind of follow it along. And it was this whole experience. So that's the one thing if you're listening, and you want to know about the book and what what, what it's like, that is how I would describe it. It's much more of an experience as opposed to something you read before bed, you know what I mean? It's like an event.
So we, you know, you're telling your listeners that. And one other aspect of this star bullet stories is Book Three is interactive, children's listening and reading. Help children in Star class, get to the bright new world of struggle is dream where children play and get along and are accepted for exactly who they are. By using a magical mirror in the back of the book, they're able to look in the mirror to see their expressions. And if they see that their eyes are shining like stars like star Bella's. They made the friendly as a social choice to help solve some of the social dilemmas in the classroom. They send their friendly thoughts to the kids to help them get to the bright new world. I didn't mention that. In Book Three Star Bella starts off her day with great enthusiasm. But soon she's bullied and feels she doesn't belong. And she goes under a table and looks out and observes the social dilemmas of other children. We have one little boy in the book named Jeremy whose features are completely covered up to open a discussion about differences so children can express what they think might be different about Jeremy and often they say things that are very personal. When we perform these stories for the children with visual challenges, some of the kids that will maybe he was sick glasses, we've heard somebody else they will maybe have freckles or somebody else's ideas. Maybe it's his voice so they're able to express some of their own feelings through that character. And we have separate scenarios, like I said, they're there. These scenes are actual incidents that I observed in the schools where to perform the stories. And the words of the children are their actual words. And I was wondering since Marvin is here, and he hasn't said anything yet. Go ahead and view. If you'd like to add something. That's all right. Well, I
think the exciting things about these books are that wonderful messages, but they're very entertaining and children have responded so well, to music, to the art, and importantly, to the messages. And they tend to appeal to all children that children are typical, or children with qualities of any sort. They're really universal books. And I think these types of messages are very important in this day and age when it's very important that, that children understand that other children with differences are from different backgrounds, because in the world we live in, that's the kind of community that they're going to be involved in. So I think if they learned at an early age to be empathetic to one another, hopefully, by the time they become adults, we're going to have a much better world than we have right now. So it was my pleasure always to support my wife and my daughters and defend your thinking.
That's wonderful that you're able to support them in this endeavor. It is it is definitely a wonderful resource for families. I wanted to talk a little bit more about how it was when Tara first started school. I know that in the in the book in Book Three Star Isabella went directly into a typical classroom was that how Tara it was that her first experience in education? Or how did that come about? Or what was her experience like?
Well, you know, Tara didn't get her diagnosis till she was in her early 20s. That's why we called the first book of star Bella Mystery Girl music because Tara has tremendous abilities. But then she also had some behaviors that were hard to understand without a diagnosis. And she also had talents, it seemed to come from someplace to live, we didn't understand. And so we said that she's a girl of mystery for many reasons. But terrorists problems in schools did not exhibit themselves so much academically, as they did socially. A lot of determination and work at home and tutoring, Tara was able to go to school and make good grades. But her social communication was lacking. And the way you know, in those days, there was no enhance enhancement, our accommodation for her that her needs are learning needs and waste and help her socialize. So she was in the regular classrooms. And when I first went to observe Tara starting in preschool, where I found her really was under a table, and like this, you know, is put into the books. And I've exhibited the books, many in many parts of them conferences, and when parents see that picture of star Bella under the table, they often actually cry and say that my son like that, that's where I found them. So our problems were mostly based on social issues. And I was always in schools advocating for her rights, to be treated fairly and justly. And that was one of the things that motivated me to write these stories, to change that situation to sensitize teachers to knowing that it is their responsibility to help children and also stand up for them if they are being mistreated, that it is private school responsibility. Back then, you know, we were told children will be children. If we help your daughter, she'll never learn how to take care of itself. So you know, things have evolved from that point in teaching. Comedy, self learning and to, to try to introduce programs to to stop bullying. Yeah,
there there is a there is a sense from certain educators and it is kind of an old school way of thinking that there's certain behaviors or certain things that children do and If we, I guess, let them behave a certain way, or if we let them think a certain way, that we're just letting them get away with things, you know. And, like, get away with that type of behavior, as opposed to really supporting them in who they are in their strengths. And, and so I'm seeing a shift in that kind of thinking, but I think that it is. It is kind of a either a generational thing, or it's just the how many years you've been teaching. It's just a different it's kind of an old school way of thinking about learning differences. And so in saying that, I wanted to ask Dana, Dennett and Tara went to school together at some point, I'm assuming that's at
certain points, we had times when we were in the same school and then later on mirror in different schools.
So I wanted to know, if if you when you did go to school, and you were able to kind of maybe, to see Tara from afar, in the same school environment? Did you feel like they treated Tara differently than you did? Or did they feel that educators or administrators try to try to treat Tara a certain way? Or the same way as you? Or did you see a difference? Well,
I guess I can't really say that I observed her educators with her too much, because we were a couple years apart in school, and she was older. So I didn't, I was at the point where we were in school together, we were younger, elementary school age. So I don't think I had enough awareness to really be able to discern that I did witness her being picked on sometimes. I, I feel that most of what I heard about her experiences, though, were hearing them from her or from my parents, rather than actually observing them because we weren't together in the same classroom or within the same recesses, because of the difference in our aid is right. So but I did, there were certainly times when we would play together with kids in the neighborhood. And I, of course, noticed times when she would be treated differently.
Now, how I noticed that you wrote a, or I think it was on the star Bella blog, on your website. How you described autism for was at a group of elementary school kids, is that correct?
No, it was actually, my boyfriend's mother asked me if I could explain autism to her granddaughter to my boyfriend's niece. And this is this is a this is how I explained it to her or the article that's on there. And, and I'm happy to see how how popular it became with people that they they responded to it and liked what I had to say was, it was very much something that came came from the heart from me, based on my experiences with Tara. And I do think being being a sister, we we had a connection that a lot of people don't don't get to have I mean, I feel that we that we really have always gotten each other in a way. And I can see how she how she thinks how she responds, how she processes information. So particularly in our work together with with performing
for for those for those who haven't read the article, Could you could you explain or could you maybe summarize that explanation to our listeners? Sure.
What I said in the article was that that sometimes people with autism, autism, sometimes their brains don't process or understand information from the outside world in the same way as people without autism. And one thing that I heard a lot from Tara as we were growing up, and she would try to explain how she was responding to things or what was going on with it, the signals sometimes get confused in their minds. So because of that sometimes they can't necessarily approach at the processes making friends or being in social conversations, or group discussions the same way that everyone else does. But I wanted to emphasize how important it was to realize that what's inside their feelings inside and how they respond to things are the same as everyone else's. And to add a little bit I I always knew that there was a certain pathway that had to be taken from the outside world into Tara's brain to understand information and once it got in there, she understood it very well and could retain it from along for a long time. I saw my mom teaching her through the years being her study buddy working with her and seeing how I would say my mom had had had a real gift for being intuitive enough to understand how that information needed to be translated to Tara so she could really understand it and go to school and, and pass her test. One thing that of course, I noticed being a sibling was how sometimes how Tara would respond to noises or bright lights, the scene from Star Bella one star villas in the circus that came pretty directly from the experiences we had with Tara where all of a sudden, the lights would be bright, and there would be noises. And often either children or adults will see a child with autism or an adult with autism. Screaming or having or reacting negatively to some sort of stimulation that for those without autism wouldn't really bother them. And it's, I wanted to make sure that and then the children would understand that this response is coming from fear or real pain they're feeling and that's why they're behaving that way. Then, of course, some some people like Tara has have great talents, like music, there are people who have talents in art, or painting or math or science or any variety of things. And, and one thing that we all need to be able to recognize and appreciate are those talents. And knowing that sometimes what makes someone different as we would call, it also makes them very special, or sometimes it can be unrelated. But then everybody has something to offer just like what we say in Star Bella. And a lot of these skills and talents have moved things forward in our world. And we don't necessarily always talk about that scientific discoveries by some people who may who saw the world in a different way. And that difference doesn't necessarily mean worse than anyone else. And something's something something that my mom was talking about and discusses a lot. And that was so important to us in these stories, as we talk a lot about, about trying to have to make people with autism are just anyone who doesn't necessarily conform to what society expects trying to make them conform to train them what you were what you were saying about training out certain behaviors of our way of ways of thinking. And what's so important is that the rest of us also have an obligation to adjust, either to adjust the way we see things and to know that even if somebody is, is acting out or behaving in a way that might look unusual to us that we can have, that we can we can know where that's coming from, and be able to see what that is and not see it as something necessarily negative or wrong or something that they need to conform, but we can be able to see what's special about that person, and also just understand and do our best to connect to them. Just like they're always trying to connect with us. Well,
go ahead. They
you know, if you had asked me gifts, you know, Dana had some, you know, resentment, like siblings can often have somebody some resentment towards their siblings with special needs, because they drain so much attention from the parents, maybe Dean it could talk about some of the negatives but then also some of the positives of having grown up with somebody with differences in wisdom, I'm
sure and I guess as a start, start by saying that one of the greatest gifts I've had, from my experience with care I'm not even saying the sibling with autism but with Tara's as an individual is I I'm I'm not one to I'm not one to not appreciate the gifts that I have and the gifts that I'm given. And both with the relationship I have with Hara and just anything that I particularly was born with. And and one thing that I said earlier was the way our parents raised us to always do our personal best. And that's something that I feel we were very lucky in in our home that we were very seldom compared to each other it was always about both of us doing our own best. And of course there were times as children where I didn't understand some of some of the things that are would do or her behavior when she would act out and as a child that's of course difficult there and and she did require a lot of attention particularly even even as my mom was saying her my mom having to be at school to advocate for her both my parents taking turns study with her and my grandmother studying with her and as a small child. There were of course times when I didn't understand this and thought that all of that attention maybe meant they love term more or maybe meant that she was more talented than I was or prettier than I was or smarter than I was. And that those were real reactions I had as a as a little girl. And but I do think I always wait with any of that there's always been tremendous love between me and Tara, and with our parents, so I looking at things with an adult adults eyes, I mostly see the benefits, even though they're, of course times when you know, and there's always there's always the occasional embarrassment, we'd be somewhere and she asked in a way that just nobody expected and without having a diagnosis or without having nearly the awareness of autism that we have. Now, of course, when you're a child, and you're expecting to fit in that that can be troubling. But I also feel that both both in the negative and the positive way I had to become, I had to start thinking like an adult at a very early age. And part of that was gaining a sense of perspective. I would my mom was reminding me the other day that I would sometimes talk about other kids at school and what I consider trivial things that they would worry about. And while I was seeing the challenges that Tara was having, I mean, aside from whatever challenges she she was having to understand things or to learn just what she was facing from other children. And unfortunately, that that knowledge of that type of cruelty came into my life at a very early age through her. But it also did give me a tremendous sense of perspective I am, I have never been one to be careless with myself to not again to not appreciate any gifts I'm given and to see see that for what it is any ability that I have. And also to be able to fully appreciate all of the abilities and talents that Tara has. And as I've as I've been in the workplace, being in an adult world, I think it has made me be able to relate to a wide variety of people, and to empathize and to understand motivations. And to be able to really see things from other people's perspective, which is a tremendous benefit when you're in the business world and forging a career dealing with people handling relationships. And I think I don't, luckily, I don't think I was ever one to need to fit in as much as some new teenagers do when I was in that phase of life. And I always appreciated that myself as an individual. And I have to say that a lot of that probably came from having a sister who is such an individual that does both good and bad. i There were certainly times as a child where I felt like given the all that Tara was dealing with, when when I was old enough to really understand that and how much how much sometimes it would drain my parents I did tend to try to cope with things and deal with them on on my own. And not always share with them when I was going through things. And sometimes that did leave me feeling a little bit alone. And luckily, as as an adult, those were things that I was able to talk to my parents about a little bit more and, and and understand what we were what we were all going through as a family at that time.
It sounds that your your love for your sister, and you know, and Sharon and Marvin, your love for for Tara is very obvious in the way that you're talking about her. And then also it comes across in the book as well. And in just just how how especially you really saw Tara or you see Tara so that, you know that's it comes across, I want to make sure you know you knew that. And we can I know that. You know we could talk about Tara for many, many more minutes. But I wanted to kind of wrap things up. And I wanted to ask each of you, Marvin, Sharon and Dina if there was one thing that you wanted the listeners to take away from our conversation or from the book or from whatever particular kind of thing you wanted to you wanted to make sure that they got from this conversation. So maybe we can start with Marvin.
Oh, well, first of all, thank you, Tim for giving us an opportunity to express our feelings about how we see see the world having brought up a daughter with differences. And I think probably the most important thing we can say is that if children learn these messages in early age with these, these books teach about empathy and, and seeing the world is a world of many differences, but differences that can can be understood to make it a better world. we'll all benefit He is a senior now we can benefit from helping kids grow up to be good citizens. In any case, we want to also emphasize that these books to not only teach what we think are very important messages, but are, are important to who enjoy is opportunity to hear great music and view beautiful art. And we think that the combination makes we're very entertaining experiences with the children either alone or with caregivers. So again, thank you very much for this opportunity,
of course. Thanks, Marvin.
And, Tim, I'd like to quote star Bella as something to take away to show her philosophy towards inclusion. She says at the end of the series, to all the children out there all over the world story says, Remember, all people are special and has something to offer. When you are their friend, you make the world a better place. And you'll love yourself for loving them. And everyone's eyes will shine like stars.
That's beautiful. Thanks. Sure.
And for me, two things built building on what both of my parents just said, I think with the, with the tragic level that that bullying has gotten to in our world right now and various incidents that are that are such tragedies, I think it is so important for kids to learn to love themselves and accept themselves and to have the resources and support to, to have the courage to be individuals. And know that that's okay. And it started Abella can help all kids regardless, I mean, kids can become victims of bullying for any any variety of reasons or no reason at all, just like our character, Jeremy. And it's so important that kids have the courage to not only love themselves, so they don't end up taking out that anger on someone else, but also to stand up for others and to be able to listen to that good voice inside themselves that the Cerebella series always talks about.
Well, I thank you very much, Dana. Your this conversation was wonderful. I hope that everyone got something out of it. I know that I did. And I wanted to make sure that you shared what your website was where they could find you on Facebook or Twitter as as kind of an ending piece. So where can they find you on the web? Sharon?
www dot stara bella.com. Star Bella is spelled s t a r A v E L L A.
Okay, and you're on Twitter as well. Yes,
we're on Twitter. Under story says, and we have a Facebook page too. People can look up star Bella Facebook, where we, you know advocate for autism awareness on that page. Excellent.
Well, I want to thank Marvin, Sharon and Dana fee Alko for coming and joining me on the think inclusive podcast. This is wonderful. Good luck to you and the book and everything beyond that. And hopefully we can follow up in some time and see how everyone's doing. Okay, so thank you very much. And see you guys. Thanks. That concludes this edition of The think conclusive podcast. Remember, you can always find us on Twitter. At sync underscore inclusive, or on the web at think inclusive.us. Today's show was produced by myself talking into USB headphones using a Mac Mini GarageBand and escape account. Bumper music by Jose Galvez with the song press. You can find it on iTunes. You can also subscribe to the inconclusive podcasts via the iTunes Music Store, or podomatic.com, the largest community of independent podcasters on the planet from Marietta, Georgia. Please join us again on the thinking cluesive podcast. Thanks for your time and attention
