You're listening to cubicle to CEO episode 221 You need to niche down is advice we've all heard 1000 times, but rarely are their answers to the how, when and why. Here to disclose the secrets of choosing a successful niche that brings in the big bucks is Eman Ismail, a copywriter who went from writing anything for anyone to an email conversion strategist for six, seven and eight figure online business owners Eman firmly believes that niching is the fastest way to grow your business. And her case study today details her own step by step niche transformation that took her from making 15 pounds an hour and averaging $40,000 a year to consistently booking $6,000 client projects and scaling her copywriting business to six figures. In this episode, she shares the four principles of a successful niche how to control your narrative so people can accurately explain what you do, even when you're not in the room. And what to do if you feel like your current audience isn't your niche target.
Welcome to cubicle to CEO the podcast. I'm your host, Ellen Yin. I quit my job without a backup plan and bootstrapped my first $300 freelance project into $2 million in revenue by age 28. On the show, you'll hear weekly case study interviews with leading entrepreneurs and CEOs who share one specific strategy that successfully grew their business revenue. Skip the expensive and time consuming learning curve of testing everything yourself by borrowing what actually works from the best and brightest mentors. You'll also get a front row seat to my founders journey through transparent income reports and behind the business solo episodes. Subscribe now so we can grow together every Monday.
Hey, friends, welcome back to the show. I'm excited to have Eman here with us today. If you're watching on YouTube, by the way, Eman, you look gorgeous in your beautiful headscarf, everything, just the patterns poppin on camera.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Of course, of course, you want your loyal listener of the show I so appreciate that I was telling you before we hit record that I could tell how much intentionality and thought you put into your pitch. And really working with us to refine this case study which you guys are in for a really good one. This is a topic that I feel like every single person has, at one point in their business been like what does that mean? And what I'm talking about is this topic of niching down. If you've been in business for honestly more than a day, you've probably heard at some point some person tell you, you need to niche down you need to niche down and there's so much power in niching down I think both Eman and I can very wholeheartedly attest to that ourselves and our own businesses.
But the question of how do you actually niche down is not often talked about as much as why you should do so. So that's kind of what we're gonna dive into today, Eman is going to actually walk us step by step through how she was able to niche down and really make significant changes to what she was able to earn in her business literally going from charging $76 and email right to now charging 400 to $450 per email. So that's just one piece of a bigger project or retainer with a client. But before we get into the case study, as you know, Eman I have to ask you, what is your Cubicle to CEO story.
Of course, back in 2017 to 2018 I was working for a local food charity as a communications expert. I say I was like running the communications department. But I was the communications department. It was that typical kind of charity vibe where you have one job, but actually you're doing kind of like three, four roles within that one job. So I was the Social Media Manager, I was creating video content. I was creating case studies, I was doing the copy for website and emails. It was so much and within all of that I knew that I really really loved the copywriting aspect. I absolutely loved that I could send an email to donors, asking them to donate to a cause, you know, the thought and strategy that went behind kind of sending a specific email and then sending it out to donors and then actually watching the donations come in. It was the most rewarding part of my job. I absolutely loved it. And it was amazing for me to just see the power of words the power of copy the power of email.
So I was in that job for a year. I really loved it. I enjoyed it a lot. However, I had a them two year old and life was very difficult in that I was having to travel to a different city most days for this job. And so I'd wake up super early and take my son to nursery and I wouldn't be able to pick him up in the afternoons because actually the evenings because of work, I couldn't get back in town to pick him up so I had to hire a childminder to go pick him up. And so every day I would kind of rush home and to hopefully beat him falling asleep, because I hadn't seen him all day where I'm maybe like 12 hours now. So every day I try and get home before he fell asleep, and every day he would be asleep. But he'd be asleep on the couch on the sofa. Because he refused to go to bed without me. He, at two years old knew that I wasn't there and was waiting up for me. So sweet. But he was so tired that he could never stay awake. So I would walk in and he'd be asleep on the sofa. And every time, I just wanted to cry, and it got so bad that I actually started to feel quite depressed and quite low.
And I remember just feeling, you know, like, I had taken this job because I thought it was what was best for us for our family. And actually, it turned into the situation where I really wasn't seeing him anyone it was, it was devastating. And on top of that I wasn't making a lot of money, I was working really hard. I was working some evenings and weekends, I was always available for this job and in this role. And you know, that wasn't reflected in the the money that I was making. And then my lifestyle had completely kind of just been turned over really. And of course, I was missing my son. And I just thought this isn't, this isn't what I wanted. This isn't how I imagined motherhood to be, this isn't what I want for him or for me. And so I decided to resign, I did have a conversation with the manager first, that he made it very clear that this role would never be a you know, work from home full time kind of role, even though it could have been but that's just not what he saw, you know, envision for his office, which is totally fine. But then I had to then make that decision of, well, this, this isn't gonna work for me.
So I put in my four weeks notice, I still had to work those four weeks. And in those four weeks, I just behind the scenes, was getting everything ready. I was getting the website ready, I got an old friend to take some photos of me so that I could feel a little bit more professional, get my website up, and started my social media, and just kind of prepared myself for what was coming. I knew I wanted to start a business because I had tried twice before and failed. But this time was different. Because this time I had my son and I knew that traditional employment just wasn't working for me, I wanted to be in control of my own life. I wanted to be able to take my son to the doctors without having to call up an office and ask for permission. Like for me that was it was crazy. And I just thought, I'm a grown adult, I want to decide when I you know, take time off. If my son needs to be somewhere I need to be able to take him I want to be, you know, able to take my own holidays with him whenever I want. And so I was like, Yeah, let's let's do it.
So I kind of prepared everything in the background. I let people know publicly on LinkedIn, like, Hey, I am actually leaving this role. I'm available as a freelance copywriter, get in touch, get in touch if you need me, little did I know that people had been watching the work that I'd been doing for this charity. And were super interested in working with me. And so, you know, again, I knew that I had no choices had to work. And so I threw myself into it. And I left that role on a Friday. By the Monday I was sat in this little basement office with no windows at this desk thinking right? I need to figure this out, I had my first client. And the rest is kind of history.
That was five years ago now. So I now have a second child as well. So lots has changed. I went from Gosh, 15 pounds an hour, I know we'll go into this but those those early days was so hard kind of 10 pounds, 15 pounds an hour to now, six figure business. I went from being a generalist copywriter. So literally those early days, I would take on anything that anyone wanted me to do, like if you need me to write, I will do it, send it to me. And then as I gain more confidence, of course, I decided to specialize in email strategy and copy. And so now that's what I do for my for my clients, I work one to one with course creators, coaches, membership makers, creators and service writers too. And I help them make more money with their emails and newsletters and and not just that as well. I help them create an email community, I help them build a better relationship with their subscribers so that you know their subscribers kind of go from fans to superfans who want to engage with them and buy their products.
I love that and I can totally resonate. I think anyone listening to this podcast can probably resonate with the poll of wanting be autonomy right over your choices over your schedule over many things, honestly, your pay rate as an entrepreneur. So that story is probably feels familiar to many listening to this podcast. And I think it's so great that now you're a mother of two and that you get to have all of the things that you could only have dreamed of back then. And five years into business. Congratulations, by the way. I know that's a big milestone. A lot of small businesses never actually reached. So, we were we're making it, I'm kind of on a similar timeline as you I think wrapping up my sixth year or starting my sixth year. Yeah, that might be what it is. I think yeah. Six years. So like I have to do the quick mental math. I think that's right, we're on the same timeline.
And I feel like that's a perfect entry by the way into your case study of how you started as a generalist, a general copywriter that would write about anything to now focusing on email, I want you to insert your early hot take on this, which you said in I think this was maybe in your pitch to us to be on the show you said niching is not the only way to be successful in business, but it's the fastest way. So I want you to expand, why do you think that is? And to that point, how do you pick a niche or test a niche? If you're unsure yet, what you're best at? Or what you want to be known for?
I'm going to answer the second part of that question first. Because I feel like that is the part that always comes first, like people are like, Well, how do I know what to niche in? What how do I choose it. And I feel like with me, my niche really chose me. And so because of my experience, my philosophy around this is don't niche too early. I think there are so many benefits in niching but I also think that it's a mistake to niche too quickly, I think you should give yourself time to really explore and try different things. And I'm really happy that I spent those first couple of years as a generalist, because it meant that I was able to gain a kind of thorough education in all different aspects of copywriting, all the different types of copywriting. And so what that means now is that if someone comes to me and says, Oh, can you do this type of event? Can you write me a sales page? I absolutely can. I don't have to say no, because I don't know how to, I feel very confident doing that. And so it means that I still have all these different doors open to me.
So with me, what happened is I was just really enjoying writing my own newsletter. And because of the way that I started building my newsletter, which was through local workshops in my city, the people who were joining my newsletter were people that I was seeing regularly at these local workshops. So I was getting this in person feedback from people who were on my newsletter, which is super rare, but really exciting. And they were able to tell me that they love my newsletter, they found it funny, and you know, interesting, and it made them pause and reflect. And people used to tell me, it's one of the only emails that I will stop and read in my inbox. And I got such good feedback that I just thought, you know what, I really love this, people can see that I love it. Well, the people are loving it. What if this was the only thing I did for clients? Like, what if this was the only thing? Why am I like depriving myself of this love and this enjoyment, let me do more of this. And so for me, I really feel like my niche found me I wasn't looking for it, I was allowing myself to just explore.
And so that's the philosophy I kind of approach this with when it comes to that when people ask me, don't need too early, don't force yourself to pick a niche, if there's something that you really love, and you really enjoy. And you can see yourself doing it for a long time. Because that's the thing about niching. As you get so deep into it, you really have to enjoy what you do for the longevity to be there, you really have to love it. And so when that thing comes to you and you meet that thing you realize this is this is that that's what I love to do. That's your niche.
And I just want to add to that, I totally agree by the way, Eman that, not niching too early is actually the better route to go. Because to your point, like you said, unless you come in to business already with so much clarity and passion on one specific thing. And you know, you can take that far, unless you already have that if you don't have that clarity, I think the best way to find clarity is to get in the action, right to try different things to explore. And I went through a very similar experience back when I was building a social media marketing agency. We used to do everything I remember at the beginning, like someone was like, can you read my LinkedIn page? Yes. Can you do Instagram? Yes. Can you try Facebook ads? Yes, right. It was like yes to all the things. And then over time, we really really niche down not only to Instagram as a platform, but also like a very specific component of Instagram, which was like engagement and growth for ecomm brands. And, you know, I've left that part of my business behind for the last few years, we no longer have an agency, but I can very much relate to what you're saying about how if I hadn't given myself that time to be more of a generalist, I don't think I would have really been able to hone in on my niche with the clarity that I did, because I had the experience and the data to back it up. So just wanted to double tap that on the other side.
You know, going back to that hot take of why niching is the fastest way to succeed in business. You know, it's kind of an interesting poll because on the one hand we're both saying right, take a little time allow yourself to explore don't niche down right away but at the same time if you want to go fast you need to niche down so like why do you believe that? How do these almost what is the word like seems like these how do these opposite thoughts almost exist and can exist as truth in the same plane?
Okay, great question. Here's why because you need to take that time so that you can figure out what is obviously the right niche for you. So that when you do pick it, you can just fly, and you can soar with it. And so going back to this idea of, again, because I sincerely believe that niching is not the only way to be successful in business, I know plenty of generalists, and all different types of industries and fields who are doing amazingly well. But for me, I've seen that it is the fastest way to grow your business. And here's why.
So when you have a successful niche, I say, that's usually because you followed these four, four principles, your niche is clear, as in, you say what you do. And it's super clear. It's easy to understand, nobody ever needs any clarification, there's no like, could you explain that a little bit, there's, there's none of that it's immediately easy to understand. It's easy to remember. So people, when they're thinking of you, they instantly remember what it is that you do. And it's easy to communicate verbally, and in the written form as well. So when people are talking about you to other people, it's very easy to communicate what you do. And the easier is for people to understand your niche to remember your niche. And to communicate your niche, the more successful you will be in your niche. Because it's so much faster for you to kind of grow all these things propel you and your business forward, you're making it easier for your business to grow.
And so I found that something that a lot of people laugh about, and I get a lot of people saying this, funnily enough, and no one ever knows how many people say this to me. So my name is obviously Eman Ismail. And the second part of my surname has the word mail in it, right. And so everyone is always like, you need to do something with that name. You need to do something, right. People who started saying Eman is email, email does email. That's that's who she is. That's what she does. And it's become so easy to remember. That's all I need people to communicate. And all I need people to remember, Eman does email so that when someone's in a room, and they're talking about email, it's ahh Eman. I know the perfect person Eman, or I'm struggling, I'm struggling with my emails. Eman, I know, I know who's gonna help you with this, it's Eman. I don't need people to remember that, you know, I'm a heart centered copywriter who works with x, y know, just email.
And I'm sure we'll go into this, but I am a huge proponent of something that I've termed the one word niche. For this reason. The one word niche is the idea that your niche should just be one phrase, or one word that makes it super easy for people to remember what you do and communicate what you do. So for me, it's email, you know, for for Rachael Rogers, it's seven figures, or millionaire. You know, for Jasmine Star, it's social media. For Amy Porterfield. Its online marketing. It's this one word or this one phrase that people will always relate to you and your business. And that's what will help your business grow faster, you're making it easy for people to help you grow your business
100%! You're really igniting that word of mouth army for yourself, right. And I really like what you're saying about, it's all about the recall for people like that's the thing, I feel like have your four principles that really stood out to me. And I'm just going to repeat them again, for our listeners, because they're so powerful. And I want you all to write this down. If you haven't already, Eman said the niche has to have four principles clear, easy to understand, easy to remember, easy to communicate verbally and in written form. I think that distinction too, as a an even deeper layer to what you're sharing. But the the third part, the number three easy to remember, I think that recall, again, is the missing piece to your point, your niche could be clear and easy to understand for someone when you are the one relaying it when you're the voice sharing the thing. But if you're then asking someone to duplicate yourself and to go tell someone else about what you do, if it's not easy for them to remember how to talk about it, then they're not going to talk about it. Right.
So I would love for you to expand a little bit more on this idea of being easy to communicate both verbally and in written form. Do you have an example that comes to mind of a niche that maybe is one but not the other? And then how you would go about fixing that? Or maybe even in your own use case? Like did you start with toying around with some ideas that were easier for people to communicate verbally versus written? And then you had to kind of modify to make sure it was move in both areas?
Yeah, actually, I have two examples. So for me, my example is that initially, I used to call myself an email conversion strategist and copywriter and I mean, that's, that's what I am email conversion strategist and copywriter. But that's really hard to say, let alone to remember. So I had to kind of really think about how important the rest of it was. And while I feel it's important, I can live with just email as long as you We'll just know that it's email that I do that I help with. That's the most important part. So initially, I used to introduce myself as Eman Ismail, email conversion strategist and copywriter. That was a little bit difficult. So it's now I mean, when I smile when I do email, or I help businesses make more money through email, I'm an email strategist and copywriter, even just you know, taking out that one word, just make it slightly shorter, just making it as easy as possible to say and communicate.
And I think another example, which is very different, but is equally important is a lot of people now like to call themselves, I'm going to use my industry as an example. So in the copywriting industry, I've seen a trend of more and more people calling themselves ethical copywriters. And some people would think that that would say that that is a niche. That's my niche, I'm an ethical copywriter, but nobody put that person knows what that means. Nobody knows what that means. Other than that person, I feel so strongly about this. I feel like this might upset a few people. I don't mean to upset anyone. But
We have to have strong opinions sometimes. So yes, please share right your hot take, yes. Okay.
But here's an example of someone I think does that really, really well. I actually just want to find who the person is because I want to make sure that I give them credit. This person, they call themselves a cruelty free copywriter. And I just think that is so clever, because it immediately tells me who they are, what they do, what their interest and specialism is. So immediately I know that this person is only working with certain brands that identify as cruelty free, so immediately if I know that somebody ever is kind of needing someone in that sphere, that's the first person that I'm gonna think of, and I'm looking at her Instagram and she's called Topaz. I don't know her personally, but she calls herself the cruelty free copywriter and I I've been watching her brand and I just think it's really cool, because she's gone a step further from ethical copywriter, where nobody knows what that means to cruelty free copywriter, and she says that her her niche is cruelty free, whether it's plant based snacks, vegan leather accessories, or natural skincare products. And I think she's done that really well.
Yeah, that's such a great example. By the way, even though you don't know her personally, I feel like you should totally send her this episode, when it when it goes live is just a compliment her work. I know, it feels great being on the receiving end of people noticing your work, you know. So I think that is such a great example.
And exactly what you said human like being an ethical copywriter, I totally understand where there might be confusion, because ethics as a whole is a very complex. I mean, there's whole philosophical debates about morality and ethics and right. So it's like, there's so many varying perspectives on what it means to be ethical. And so I like that cruelty free, like you said, it's very clear, because it's a term that people like the general public is already familiar with, right? Like we read a label, we see cruelty free. We understand innately what that means. And so I always tell people, not so much. I mean, yes, from a messaging perspective, but just in general, like anytime you're talking about your business, or what you do, or what you offer, the less brain calories someone has to burn to try to understand you, the easier it will be for them to give you a yes or to support you. So I feel like those examples that you just gave are such a great way to really showcase that in action.
And also the fact that people literally say Eman is email like they're they're making you synonymous with the word email. I'm just curious beyond being clear, and repeating yourself often saying like, I'm Eman, I, you know, I do email outside of that practice. Is there anything else, any other tips that you've learned along the way for how to create that really strong association between yourself and a single word or phrase?
Yes. And I call this controlling the narrative. So I had a very embarrassing experience that taught me this the hard way. I usually send anyone that I'm doing, you know, a talk for or any kind of workshops or anything like that, I'll usually send them my media kit beforehand. So they have my bio, because I want to control the narrative, I want to make sure that I am giving them the language with which to describe me, I don't want them to come up with their own language. And as a copywriter, I know how important this is, I know how important words are. I don't want them to just come up with their own words to describe me, I want to be in control of the language they use to talk about me and because that's the language that then other people, of course will associate with me. With this one time, I was speaker on this online Summit, and I had forgotten to send my bio to this speaker to the speakers or to the hosts. And so I get on this zoom. They introduced me as a seven figure copywriter, which was kind of embarrassing because I'm not, I'm not a 7-figure copywriter. I mean, I aim to be, I'm not there yet.
And so I had this moment where I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm live on this summit and they've just introduced me as a 7-figure copywriter. And I could see why they got confused because I work with multi six and seven figure businesses and brands. So that's where they got the seven figure from. So I could see the confusion. And I'm thinking, Okay, well, I can't actually stop my talk without addressing it because it feels really dishonest. And so I felt like I had to, I had to say something. And so I corrected them and let everyone know on the call, like, Hey, I'm not a seven figure copywriter. I intend to be one day soon, but I'm not quite there. This is who I helped, and then went into my talk. And it was mortifying, and so that was the last time I ever forgot to send across that, that tool to help hosts introduce me, and to talk about me the way that I want to be spoken about, and to describe me the way that I want to be described.
And I realized that it's so important because especially when you doing visibility work and marketing, it's vital, because I mean, if people don't understand what I do, the whole opportunity is a wasted opportunity. And so I really need to, I need to make sure that I'm controlling the narrative, always. And so that's actually done in two ways. So that first way is giving people the language with which to describe me. And and that might be just as simple as giving them my bio before they start talking about me to that audience. The other way is to make sure that you are putting out the right messages. So Jeff Bezos says Your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. And I say your niche is what people say you do when you're not in the room. So if I, and this was me, initially, the portfolio on my website included, like blog posts that I done for clients, and it had all the kind of charity clients that I'd worked with. And it had, you know, website, copy work that I'd done, and a few emails kind of sprinkled in here and there. But then, if someone was to go on my portfolio and see all of that none of that was in alignment with what I was saying I did now and who I was saying I was.
And so it's really important that there is that alignment, that if I'm now saying that I'm an email strategist, I only work on email, I only do email that when you come on my website, that you see that that you don't see blog posts, that you don't see website copy examples that I've done for, you know, past clients, if I'm not working with charity clients anymore, they're not my ideal audience anymore, then I don't need to have their logos all over my website. It's not in alignment with who I am with what I'm doing. And so the other side of control and narrative is making sure that the messages you're putting out, again, are making sense and relate to what you're seeing you do now,
that's really powerful to use that as a filter for, like you said, What do you or who do you want to attract more of? And how are they being showcased I guess, in your public portfolios, or in the content that you're putting out across your different channels. And so I think that's really smart, I would actually challenge our listeners, if you haven't in a while done a self audit of your content, whether it's on your blog, your website, your about page, or social media, your story highlights, Oh God, I, I'm guilty of this, like, story highlights up that are years old for offers, like don't even have any more like one on one coaching, you know, so like, things like that. But to your point, if they're out there, then what's to stop someone from seeing that and making an assumption that you know that this is what you offer, this is what you do. So I think that's really, really a great reminder for all of us to do a quick little, I mean, not spring cleaning, I guess, because we're in November, but you know, a little end of year, tidying up of our content channels, and to make sure that what we're putting out there is actually a good representation of the work that we do. So I love those tips of controlling the language and controlling the narrative.
And I just have to add in my own experience to really I feel like to resonate with what you're saying in that is, it's interesting, I'm on and I don't know if you've noticed this, especially because you mentioned at the beginning of the interview that you started your copywriting practice kind of from meeting up with locals in your area and doing these local workshops. But I have noticed personally that how I describe my company. So to your point, the language that I use to describe my company differs depending on the setting that I'm in and the contextual knowledge that I know that particular audience has about the industry that I work in. So, for example, like if I'm on a virtual summit with a bunch of online business owners, it would not be out of the ordinary for me to describe Cubicle to CEO as a business media company because at our core, like factually, that is what we are. But I've noticed that when I say something similar at a local business networking group, immediately you can just see confused faces, right? People are like, Oh, you're a social media agency. Nope, that's not what we are. But they hear the word media and immediately jumped to social media or marketing because like that's the association they have or you know, whatever they might come up with all of these different narratives in their head.
But I've noticed if I switch my language slightly in those settings to, oh, I'm a podcaster, or like I have a full time podcast, something that they can attach to that feels more singular and specific as a representation of the content that we create as a media company. I think people seem to click with that more. And I'm just curious if that's happened to you, too. Do you ever switch how you talk the language that you use, depending on the setting that you're in?
Absolutely. I think it's really important as well, when I'm talking to potential clients who have had experience with hiring copywriters before and they want to know, well, what's the difference between, you know, this other person I've worked with and you? And so that's when I can kind of change up how I describe myself a little or go into more detail. And that's where I would say, Yes, I'm an email strategist and copywriter. And so here's why that's different. I'm an email conversion strategist, I focus on the conversion, I check the data, I am figuring out how to optimize your emails after I've worked on them. The whole point is to increase conversions, because there are different types of copywriting. And they know that, you know, they know that there's SEO copywriting, and there's brand copywriting. And so they have a deeper understanding, which allows me to then explain why what I do is so different.
And then of course, one thing that I learned is that it's been really integral to being able to uplevel and be seen as an expert and understood to be an expert is to use the term strategist to describe myself and to really become a strategist, because what I was before was an audit taker, a client would come and tell me, like, hey, I need five emails. And I need you to write email, what about this and email to about this and email through and then I just go away and do it because as someone who was new to business, I was terrified of telling the client what to do. And so I would just do what they told me until one day, I realized that I am not serving my clients in the best way. By doing that by being scared and under confident to tell them what they need, when their strategy wasn't working, I needed to be able to say, this is not the right thing to do, this is not going to work for you. And so I was able to obviously train and educate myself on how to be a strategist and then come back and really step into that strategist role. So that now I'm leading my clients, I tell them what we need to do, I tell them the best way to do things, and they're grateful for that they don't want to be thinking about this, they want to hire me so that I can go figure it out for them and then do the work.
And so these key things in the different kind of terms and words that I'm using to describe myself is what has been pivotal and me being able to sell myself to those multi six, seven plus figure businesses, business owners and brands who are really looking for that kind of next level of support. And so absolutely, you're totally right, you do need to have different versions of this, this language that changes depending on who you're talking to. And I found that me being able to describe myself as this email conversion strategist is what really, really changed the game for me actually.
Mistakes That made me is the podcast that asks extraordinary business owners to share their biggest business mistake so you know what not to do on your road to success. Join host Eman Ismail, as she chats with some of the smartest minds in business about how to push through failure and accept it as an important and necessary part of building a business. If you loved our Cubicle to CEO case study with guest, Dielle. Charon last week, head over to Episode 12 of Mistakes That Made Me and listen to Eman's interview with Dielle where Dielle shares her biggest business mistake thinking she needed to be internet famous before she could build her million dollar business. You can search mistakes that made me wherever you're listening to this podcast to follow and listen or go to Emancopyco.com/podcast/dielle-charon will also drop a clickable link below in the show notes.
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I liked that distinction of you know, earlier you said the less words for someone to remember the easier it is for them to again, recall you and actually refer to you. And so I like how in public settings when you're, you know, trying to create brand awareness, you're like I do email, I do email, I do email. And it's very simple so that when someone hears the word email, they think of you. But then it seems that in your actual one on one, maybe discovery calls or sales conversations, that's when you are adding in this additional layer of okay, I'm actually an email copywriter and strategist to really help them see your value proposition. Right. So I like that, I guess layered approach. And I just wanted to pull that out for listeners in case anyone missed that.
And also, the whole analogy of being an order taker versus being the leader and telling someone this is actually what you need. Because I know this craft, right. I remember that was another thing that really stood out to me and your pitch for our podcast is you had a great analogy for this. It was like McDonald's versus a high end like five star restaurant. Can you just like real quick share that analogy to really help our listeners soak this in?
Yes. So initially, when I started business, and I was a generalist, and I was scared to, you know, voice, my opinion and my strategy, and I would just do what clients told me, I was very much an order taker. So I like to call this iteration of my business, McDonald's drive thru. So the clients would come through, and they just point, you know, at this menu that has all these like millions of things on it and say, Yeah, I want this, this, this, this, this and this, and then I'd be in the back, like, you know, like, really working away at it and like, you know, destroying myself to get this work in. And then I could, you know, run to the window and be like, Hey, you go, here's all the things that you ordered. Go ahead, take it and go, and then probably honestly, you know, not see them again, because why would they really have come back? Often I found as well that the emails wouldn't perform. And that was again, because they decided what the strategy was. I didn't. And so again, I realized, Okay, well, this isn't going to work. Actually, it's better for me to be in control of the strategy and take responsibility for the performance and the outcome as well.
Now when I changed my business when I became the strategist, and I stepped into like the strategist leader role, my business totally changed. And I like to think of it this version of my business as a high end restaurant, if you've ever watched Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares, because it's just the best show, I love Gordon Ramsay. So he goes into these restaurants that are just like appalling. And the having a terrible time. And usually, the first thing he'll do is he'll go in and he'll taste the foods or you can like figure out what's going on. And they'll bring him a menu and the menu will be like 30 pages long. And he's like turning the pages and, and it just goes on forever. And he's like, You serve everything. He's in an Italian restaurant that serves like burgers and like hot dogs. And he's just like, What is going on. And so the first thing he does is he quits the whole menu. And to the extent that the restaurant will be left with like a one page menu, and of course, the owner of the restaurant is usually freaking out because he's like, they're like, you know, you took away all our options, no one's gonna buy from us anymore.
But actually, by reducing the number of options, and making it you know, very specific, you're creating this high end experience, you're coming across as a more of an expert in what you do as a specialist and what you do, and people value that so much more. So now, you know, my potential clients, when clients come to me, they know that I have a very set offer, they have this one piece that they can choose from, and you know, we'll figure it out, we'll you know, work together if there's anything else that they ever need. But look, this is this is what we start off with. These are the options, and then they can go through this and they're not overwhelmed. They're not completely, you know, stuck in a decision fatigue, because there were just so many options. Now there are a high end restaurant, this is the menu, and this is what you can choose from and if you don't like it, then this probably isn't the right restaurant for you.
Yes. Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you brought up the phrase decision fatigue, because that is exactly what I was thinking as you were talking. It's just the like as someone who is very indecisive in the minutiae of life, like for big decisions, I actually am weirdly, very decisive. But when it comes to the small things like ordering at a restaurant, it was like if I go to the Cheesecake Factory, there's like 30 pages, I'm like, I don't even know I'm so stuck in indecision, right. And that's actually an experience that I like about eating at high end restaurants that I really enjoy when when a waiter is actually very knowledgeable about the menu and the pairings, right? You know, like, you can always tell the difference, like when you go to a restaurant, where they really treat their food with such, like such respect, like, they're like, Oh, if you're going to eat this, then this is a starter that you have to eat this with. And this is the drink, that's going to really bring out the flavors and XYZ, right, I just feel like it's like you said, it's such a different experience.
And even if we all kind of zoom out beyond like the online business world and just look at regular, everyday business, I can even see that having the same effect. As a consumer like for myself, I get really overwhelmed when I step into a regular grocery store, because it's just so many aisles, and there's so many things going on. And that's why I regularly and loyally shop at a store like Trader Joe's because it's like four aisles, and you can get through the entire store in like 15 minutes. And I know exactly what to expect. And there's limited choices. But the choices are good choices that I want. And that I will come back for over and over again. And so I feel like this is such a great analogy.
And I would love for you to also frame for our listeners, when you did decide to pare down your own quote unquote menu of services to offer clients. How did you choose which were like, I think you have two signature services, right? Like, how did you choose what those two are going to be? And how did you I guess, choose the price points that you did to offer very clear choices, because obviously, if one is much, much less than the other, then it's like you're going after, I guess a very specific client for one versus the other. So can you just kind of walk us through your process of how you pare down your signature services?
Absolutely. So I had the VIP and still have the VIP week service, which is me working on your project and only your project for one week, seven days, and then you get the project delivered. On the seventh day. It's a very focused, very specific project, very intense, and it delivery is fast. And then my second signature service was my email audit. So with the first service, you're coming to me for a specific email sequence, we're working on one email sequence, you will get that at the end of the seven days, you want me to do it all for you is done for you. But with the email audit, this is the almost like the entry point service that is much lower in price that gives people a feel for how I work. It's that client who is maybe not sure about this whole email strategist copywriter thing, but wants to try it out. So they'll kind of dip their toes in with the email audit. And then they may go on afterwards to hire me for the VIP week for me to do that products in full. But the email audit also might be for someone who has a lower budget who wants me to analyze what's going on in that email strategy right now who wants tailored recommendations on how they can improve their conversions. Without me taking it all in, you know, and starting from scratch and writing it all over again, they just, they want me to go in and be a consultant and an analyze what's going on so they can do better.
And I will say that now I have a third, which is a custom project. So that's where the client can come and say, look, what I need doesn't fit into these two, I need this, this and this. And so we'll come up with their own custom service custom package. But I will say that I've only added this third on now because my lifestyle allows for it.
And so when I came up with these two signature services, the VIP week and the email audit, it was because I was actually pregnant expecting my second child. And so obviously, with pregnancy, I was exhausted, I was on a limited timeframe, I realized that I had a certain amount of time to make some money basically for my maternity leave because I wanted to self on my maternity leave. I had recently moved country and so I was in that weird position that weird place where I wasn't being supported by like any government, I wasn't gonna get very much for kind of maternity leave, it was really on me to figure this out. And so I knew that I wanted a higher ticket offer which was the VIP week that would be like just such amazing value for my clients that it would seem like a no brainer. And then that lower price kind of entry point service.
And so with my VIP week, what that meant was, my projects were limited. There were never any projects that were going on for months and months, which can often happen with copywriting projects, because I didn't have months and months and months for the project to go on for I needed that clear kind of limit and time period. And again, I wanted a high ticket offer so I could see for maternity leave. And so it was actually a case of me sitting down and realizing what I needed for my life. So it was it was kind of a life first strategy. Well, this is my goal. How am I'm going to make that happen, whilst also making sure that I'm providing like the best service and the best value that possibly come from my clients. And so it's interesting because yeah, it came from life necessities.
And then me sitting down, figuring this out, drawing out my offers, and really just putting it out into the world and seeing what happened, because I did start off with VIP days, and VIP days did not work for me. Because those things had me anxious. I was like, This is not for me, I cannot finish this huge project in a day, I would be working, you know, into the night, so that I could deliver the next day. And it wasn't good for me. It wasn't good for my family, my lifestyle. And I was just like this, I can't do this. I know some people can't. And that's amazing. But it wasn't for me. So I thought, well, what can I do that still feels, you know, exclusive, that still feel special, that still feels high ticket, but gives me more time so that I can really put the work the thought that I want to in this because I'm the type of person that I need like a day to just think about things like I'll do all the research part of a project. And then just give me a day to think so that all the things can come together. And then I can go into the sequences and right so I needed that time. And that's when I decided to extend this service from a VIP day to a VIP week.
And actually, again, it's all about experimentation. If something doesn't work for you, try something else and see if that does, because actually, it turned out that my clients loved the VIP week more because it made them feel more special, like I was dedicating an entire week to them. And I could promise them that there were no other projects that were going to take my focus away from that project that I was all that. And they were mine for seven days, and they loved it. And so that went really well. And it actually got to the point where I would get on sales calls with prospective clients. And I would only offer them the VIP week. And I would say this is how I work. This is my process. This is the delivery of the work. And actually they were amazed and excited to think that we could you know, from what start in the project seven days later, they could have the delivered product. And so what's been great is actually making sure because again, I'm a strategist, I'm tracking the data, I'm tracking the results, keeping in touch with clients to make sure that these VIP weeks have been effective. And I've been able to see that my clients have had amazing results. And so yes, everyone's happy.
You actually took the question right out of my mouth of which of these services do you lead with? So it sounds like you lead with the VIP week? And then if that's not at the let's say, maybe they're not ready for or they don't have the investment for is that when you then try the audit as a down sell? And what are the two price points of these two offers?
Okay, so exactly that initially, I would go with the VIP week. And also that would include like doing customer surveys, customer research, or there was all kinds of that aspect. And so sometimes the client might say, Oh, I don't really want all of that, or I don't need all of that. And so then I'd go in and say okay, well, maybe we need to do this, and certainly the email or days for you. And so when my prices have changed now, I've also switched to charging in USD, the VIP week is just under $6000. And the audit is a $1800. And I've been able to do that because I have been able to again, track my results for clients. So I've been able to prove that your results won't suffer because I'm spending less time on your project. I have one client who I worked with, she booked two VIP weeks with me
Oh, and by the way, I would do a little discount if someone booked two VIP weeks back to back as like as as an incentive to sell more than one. And this client that booked two VIP weeks, I worked on her email. And then something I want to talk about actually was this like secret service of offering a sales page with that email sequence. And I mean, I've been checking in with her I've just finished a case study with her. And so far she has made $1.2 million pounds and counting from the Evergreen funnel that I worked on in these VIP weeks and so less time doesn't mean less quality, still got amazing quality and I can prove that and so I've been able to say like this is the investment and this is what some of my clients have seen in terms of return on investment.
That's incredible. First of all, so huge congratulations to both you and your client for being able to deliver such results and I feel like the price difference is helpful for our listeners to understand okay, you know when you're thinking about narrowing down your signature service the one that you want to lead with is the one that you would hope the most number of people would actually sign up for but then having other options in your back pocket like a down sell like a you know an add on like a sales page add on or a double week intensive for a discount like those are good things to have in your back pocket. But I feel like that front end marketing of focusing on one specific offer just like, you know, on this topic of niching down is more powerful for getting more conversions. So I'm really glad that you were able to walk us through a real life example of that human.
And to wrap up our case study today, I wanted to go back to this concept of customer research very briefly, you know, mentioned the word but something that you shared with us in your initial pitch to be on the show is that assumptions are dangerous. And the antidote to assumptions is customer or as we call it here, market research. So, one thing that I found really interesting about what you shared is that sometimes your current audience may not actually be the audience you are wanting to speak to or calling.
So for example, you mentioned when you were sharing your cubicle to CEO story that you come from the nonprofit background where you wrote for a lot of charities, but that wasn't necessarily the client that you wanted to attract more of as you went out on your own. And instead, you're wanting to work with six and seven, or even eight figure course creators, coaches, etc. So I have a couple questions for you on kind of how you, I guess, made that transition. And I believe and feel free to jump in if I'm misremembering anything, but I believe that you had actually reached out to a few six and seven figure business owners who were your dream clients or ideal clients and said, Hey, like, I want to work with more people like you. Could you hop on a customer interview call with me? So I can ask you some questions? Do you remember? Or do you have a copy of the email where you pitch them for this customer interview call? Like, what did you say? Can you share a little bit there?
This Oh, you know, when I had come out of the charity sector, like you said, and I accidentally fall into fallen into this, like, accidental niche were to come out of the charity sector. And then all my, my entire network was other kind of nonprofit, employees, workers, that kind of thing. And so they were the people who were approaching me to work with them, which was amazing, because I was just happy to take on any work. And I knew what I was doing in that sphere. However, a year later, a year and a half later, we're still only working with charities at this point, I'm kind of thinking. I didn't mean for this to happen. And it feels it feels like the worst thing when something in business is just completely accidental, in a bad way. And you kind of don't know how you ended up there. And you just kind of think, Oh, well, how do I get out of this now. And so my task was to figure out who I wanted to work with?
Well, I knew that I wanted to work with for profit businesses, I love working with women entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, usually, six, seven figures, eight figures plus, and I just have no idea how to speak to those people, they will complete aliens to me, I was I was this copywriter, who was kind of like two years into this was probably making kind of 40 to 50, maybe 40 to 60k a year like maximum. And the idea of this like six figure business owner, seven figures, they just felt like unicorns, I was like, I don't know who these people are, how do I speak to them? How do I get them to notice me? How do I write copy for my website? Because this was my next big project? How do I write copy for my website that makes these people feel like I understand them, I know them, I'm the right person to help them.
So of course, as a copywriter, the first thing to do I know is to do market research to do customer research. So for me, those are voice of customer interviews, or customer surveys. And these are things that I do for my clients currently. So I know how to do this, I'm trained in this customer research. So I wanted to make sure I went all in and that I did customer interviews with six, seven figure business owners. And so I knew of a few because I was in kind of their communities, but I didn't know them personally. So the first thing I wanted to do was find out like how they describe themselves what they call themselves, because in my head, I called them entrepreneurs. And I was ready to write my entire website, talking about how I serve female entrepreneurs. And I'm so glad that I did these interviews, because I found out that not one of these people call themselves an entrepreneur, they all just call themselves online business owners. And so that meant I could go write my website and use the correct language to draw these people and to attract the right people. And so my task was to just figure them out. They were aliens to me, I want to know who they are, how do they what do they do every day? You know, what do they want in their business? Why would they hire someone like me? What are their struggles? What are their pains?
And so I decided that I was going to go into the memberships that I was in and just ask for some help. Is anyone willing to do an interview and so I've gone back into my Facebook archives. This is from June the first 2020. So at this point, I've been calling myself an email strategist and copywriter for five, six months now. But I'm still struggling because you know, COVID hit in March. It was a very difficult time. And so now I'm thinking, right, I need to figure this out. So I go into this Facebook group that I know is full of six and seven figure business owners. So here's my post.
"Fancy a free Starbucks, hey, I'm doing some research and wondered if you might be able to help. I'm looking for entrepreneurs, eg coaches, course creators, authors podcasters ecommerce owners who wouldn't mind chatting to me for half an hour about their business dreams and motivations. Basically, I want to know why you do what you do. What motivated you to set up your business and what motivates you to keep going, this would be a really chilled a 30 minute chat. In return, I'd love to gift you a free Starbucks voucher. If you want to chat and one have an email list with 1000 plus subscribers to or to classify yourself as a six plus figure entrepreneur. Please comment below or drop me a DM. Thank you for reading." And then in the comments. I put "P. S. Cori Javid and then tag to the owner of this group. I would absolutely love to chat to you question mark, but no pressure smiley face."
And then Cori replies and says "Hi there Eman, I would love to chat with you too. Let's set it up, send me a DM and we'll book it in." And so then we move to the DMS. And I say, "hey Cori, thanks for connecting with me. Hope you're well. And thank you for agreeing to chat to me context. I'm an email strategist and copywriter for six plus figure, female entrepreneurs, note entrepreneurs, and I want to better understand my ideal clients really appreciate you dedicating your time to this, here's the link to my Calendly fee to book a call. Hopefully you find a slot that works for you. If not just let me know." And she says I'll book in a slot now. Can't wait to speak.
And then we do this interview. And by the way, I do this with two other business owners, Emily Thompson from Being Boss. And I did it with a Belinda Weaver from Copyright Matters. All three of them ideal clients, they all fit into the category of ideal clients that I really want to work with, but don't know how to access, I do the same thing with all of them, I do this interview, they all have the best time because again, I know as a copywriter that people love to talk about themselves. So I want to center the conversation around them. And then just let them talk. And I've got so much amazing information from them big things like nobody calls themselves, none of these women call themselves entrepreneurs, they all just call themselves like I'm just I'm an online business owner. And so why that's so important is because had I refer to them as an entrepreneur on my website, I would have completely alienated them.
Belinda, Emily and Cori would have i My ideal clients would have gone onto my website and felt like, Oh, she's looking for entrepreneurs. That's not me, that's not me. And they would have gone. And so I needed to make sure I use the correct language to attract them. And then I was able to like put in these these small things that would allow them to notice themselves. Like every single one of them spoke about having this kind of morning routine where they would journal every morning, and all of them drank tea. And all of them spoke about this kind of intentional like thinking and reflection. And so I was able to kind of infuse that into my copy and talk about you know, have lines that spoke about your morning journaling and your your you know, cups of tea and your hiking in the mountains and that kind of thing, really specific copy that would speak to them.
And bonus, every single one of them hired me to work with them. But not long after Emily and Belinda hired me that same year. And Cori hired me the next year. Because after our conversation, we had such a great conversation. I then went on to create my website, and I stayed in touch with them. And I pitched them I was like, Look, now you know what I do. And I would love to do this for you. And so if you have any, you know, any projects in mind, you need an email sequences. Think of me I'm here. And each of them hired me.
That's incredible. Well, I just have to say, we're so aligned on so many things you want. That's I think that's why I really was drawn to you and like wanting to have you on our show because we think like in so many ways, even in how you phrase the opportunity for someone to get on one of these customer research calls. We actually have this market research training or this workshop called read their minds that used to be part of my 12 month coaching program before I retired from coaching, we're actually planning to bring it back as a standalone digital product in 2024. And it has like scripts for like how do you get people on a call? What questions do you ask them on a call? How do you really use information like this to niche down but hearing you share your process which thank you by the way for being so awesome to go find an actual post and read it word for word. I know our listeners love getting to actually hear real life examples of that. So that was really, really powerful.
And I just love hearing how it turned out for you because this is something that I really want to iterate to our listeners the fact that market research not only makes you more attractive to your dream clients because you're able to really infuse their language or their thoughts into your copy, like Eman did. But also, when you get on these calls like Eman did you put yourself front of mind for them so that again, when they think email, they think human. And so I just I just think that this really comes full circle and ties up this case study so beautifully. And I hope for any of you who were really struggling to niche down that hearing the practical steps for how you mon did it is going to help you be able to more confidently go through this process yourself and see similar results like him on where you know, earlier, I alluded to the fact that you know, you five to 6x what your per email rate was, but more so like you said, you went from making 40, 50, $60,000 a year to now having a very successful six figure copywriting, email copywriting business working with your dream clients. So I just think that's so inspiring. Thank you, Eman, for all of your wisdom today and for being so transparent with our listeners. Where can they connect with you next, if they want to continue to be in your world?
Firstly, thank you so much for having me. It's been amazing. I have actually have my own podcast called Mistakes That Made Me and so I think everyone listening to this podcast will love mistakes that made me it is the podcast where I ask extraordinary business owners to share that biggest business mistake. So you know what not to do on your road to success. And so I have interviewed I know you've had Laura Belgray on this podcast. I love that interview. I've had Laura on my podcast, Emily Thompson, so many, I hope you will be one of them one day soon. We just talked about their mistakes and their failures in business and we really dig into you know what happened, why it happened, and why they wouldn't change exactly what happened. And so if you love podcasts, go check it out. I just want to Podcast Awards for the podcasts best business podcast, best new podcast and the black pod awards. Thank you. So it's worth checking out.
And you can find me on Instagram at @Emancopyco, I would love to hear how you like this interview. I, come say hi, I'd love to hear from you. And my books are always open to work with new clients. So if you need support with your emails, your launch, you can find me at Emancopyco.com Just head over to the contact page fill in the form and then we can talk about working together.
I also have a 90 minute masterclass called nail your niche that where I talk about this whole topic and I talk about how to become the go to expert after you have decided on your niche. So if you like this topic, I have a few more things to say about that. I usually sell it for $150. But I want to give it to all your listeners for free. So I'll give you the link. Of course I'll give you the link so that you can put that in your show notes. And anyone wants to go grab the masterclass. And to hear just a little bit more about this topic. I have some some more ideas on this. You'll hear a lot of what I say here in that masterclass. But there's some some of the golden nuggets in there as well. I'll make sure that you have the code so that everyone knows where to find it.
That's so wonderful. And I love that podcast name by the way, Mistakes That Made Me first of all sucker for alliteration, but also such a great concept because we all need to be able to more openly share our missteps and and how we came out of them even wiser, even stronger. And I think that all of the best entrepreneurs I know which by the way, it's funny the whole time you were saying how that none of them resonated with the identity entrepreneur. I must be the odd duckling out because I totally resonate deeply with that word. More so than online business owner. But anyways, I don't know. That's a totally different tangent.
No, I could have guessed. I as I was saying, I guessed I was like yeah, this is not Yeah, no, I was like, yeah, no Ellen's definitely seen herself as an entrepreneur.
That is so funny. Anyways, who knows why different brains make different connections. But I just I think that's so smart to be able to talk about the things that we have navigated because each of us live a different life right so we have different paths that we have walked in to be able to turn behind you and say hey, there was a pothole don't stop there. Like that. That is so so helpful. That's why I love this world of podcasting is getting to hear so many unique stories like you're so human. Again, thank you so much for joining us and all of you listeners, we'll catch you in next week's episode.
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