Hello everyone. My name is Daniel and I am here with Dr. Kevin Cokley. I am really excited to have him as we talk about just a number of different issues. But I really wanted to start with just having you introduce yourself. So tell us about where you are, the work that you're doing and what people might know you the most for Dr. Coakley?
Sure. Hi, my name is Dr. Kevin Cokley. I am currently a professor of educational psychology and African and African diasporic Studies at the University of Texas at Austin, where I currently am also the chair of the Department of Educational Psychology. I do research in the area of broadly, African American student achievement. I'm particularly interested in the sort of psychological and environmental factors that impact the achievement of African American students. I'm also interested in mental health related issues, particularly as they relate to something that we refer to as the imposter phenomenon, and how the imposter phenomenon impacts both sort of the mental health and the academic outcomes of African American students and other minoritized students. I teach classes on the psychology of the African American experience, multicultural counseling. As a counselor, psychologist, you know, teaching multicultural counseling is very important to me. And I don't know if you want to know anything about my background, in terms of where I'm from, was that something that could be talking about later? Or are you not interested in that?
No, I'm always interested in everything you told me. So let's start with just background. So where are you from? What excited you to start this work and kind of get into it, because you listed a whole, like just a whole life career stuff. And you're still going? Sure. So
I am from a small rural town, called Pilot Mountain, North Carolina, so many people have not heard of that small town. And if you're not from North Carolina, you probably wouldn't be familiar with it. And even if you are from North Carolina, you may not be familiar with it. It is a town that is referred to as Mount Pilot. And the Andy Griffith Show, an old old show that folks of a certain age would be familiar with. So small town population, maybe 2500-3000 on a good day, and very rural. And it's it's a place where my parents still live. And I have, you know, some other family. And it's a very important part of what shaped me in terms of my own sort of view of the world and, and, you know, being a hard a country boy, I am from the country, even though I now live in the city, you know, you know, some people may refer to me as a city slicker living in Austin, Texas, but I am still a country boy at heart. I went to school at Wake Forest University, in Winston Salem, North Carolina. And from there, I went to a master's program in counselor education at the University of North Carolina Greensboro. My initial career goal was to be a director of what used to be referred to as Minority Affairs offices, which is now since been changed to like offices of Multicultural Affairs or some other version of that, that title. And it was in a multicultural counseling class in my first year in my master's program, and a counselor education program, where I sort of had an epiphany. And I was reading all this amazing work about race and racial identity and, and racism and I was just captivated by it. And I realized that the people whom I was reading majority of them were counseling psychologists and I thought to myself, well, I want to do exactly what they're doing. And so it was in that moment, in my first semester in a counselor education program that I decided that I no longer wanted to be a director of Minority Affairs Office says I wanted to be a professor that did exactly what I was reading about. And so it was at that point that I decided to pursue doctoral programs in counseling psychology. And I applied, I ended up going to Georgia State University in Atlanta, Georgia, which was a wonderful experience for me. And that started me on my way toward an academic career as a professor.
I actually didn't know any of that about you. And that gives so much context to the work you do, but also, why it seems so important that your work actually applies to communities, like regardless of the city, making sure that everyone has that knowledge, but also could get reached that information. And so really wondering, Where did like wanting to do work in the black community wanting to do research about black people in general? Where did that come from?
Yeah, well, you know, and I would say that, you know, first and foremost, my interest, and passion has been with with black students. And that goes back, oh, goodness, I can actually, it actually goes back to my own experience. As a student who I remember going to some enrichment programs, and I was, you know, again, in my small town, there weren't a lot of folks. And in my classes, I was often one of only, you know, two or three, and sometimes the only black student, and I happen to be accepted in, like summer enrichment programs for what, for what used to be referred to as like, gifted minority students. And I, in my first summer enrichment program that I attended was in high school, if I remember correctly, yes, high school. And it was a program called medicine as a career. It was held on the campus of Wake Forest University. And it was a two week program that was geared to for producing more minority students to pursue medicine as a career. And I remember going there and so I was on a, you know, it was my first time on a college campus, I was away from home for the first time, I was surrounded by all these wonderfully intelligent, predominant black students, although there were, you know, a handful of other minoritized students, but mostly black students from mostly all across the state of North Carolina. And it was amazing. I was like, man, he mean, there are other smart black people in the state of North Carolina. And it was just so amazing. And so I experienced that for two weeks, in the summer. And I remember once I experienced that, when I went back to school to my high school, I had an attitude. Because I was like, You know what, I don't even want to be here, like you all aren't about anything. I just came from the most amazing experience where I was surrounded by smart, bright people, you all are about anything, and I don't want to be here. So anyway, we're back to school with that liberal attitude. There was a follow up some enrichment program called focus on biology, that was a five week experience, also on the campus of Wake Forest University. So I attended that. And then I was set, I was like, You know what, I am ready to do this college thing. And so it probably would be no surprise to you that I did end up going to Wake Forest University since I did spend my prior two summers there, Wake Forest University was also close to where I grew up, suddenly, about 45 minutes from home. And that was really where my parents wanted me to go. And so that, so having that experience, informed my later interest in wanting to work with black students, because I worked as a counselor for summer enrichment programs when I was a student at Wake Forest University. And that was such a powerful experience. And I really enjoyed it. And I knew that I wanted to do something that involves the development of black students, because, you know, again, it was just, you know, my own experience and then working as a counselor. And so that's really where my interest initially sort of came from. And, and then, of course, when I, you know, went to college and then went to graduate school, you know, most of my attention was focused on African American students and, and what we could do to sort of, you know, better understand their experiences in predominately white settings, which was, again, reflective of my own experience, and, and how we could, you know, really enhance, and really sort of help to optimize they're there, particularly the academic sort of experiences in these predominately white settings. But so that's probably more than what you wanted to hear about, but that's it. That's really where my interest sort of came from. Yeah, I
think like that would be its own podcast. But I just think about the heavy impact that summer and rich programs have, like now, McNair Scholars or I was part of the Louis Stokes minority participation project. And so there's all of these pathways for students to get that experience. But I also think you wouldn't be here if you didn't have that experience, but also, your research and work wouldn't be so impactful to you because you lived out your experience. But then you also turned around and like, did your clinical work and your research on black communities and really wanted to understand how other people were having that experience as well.
Absolutely. And so it is a direct reflection of my own experience. And, and even you know, just more broadly, just being interested in like, black folks, I remember when I was, I think, I think it was in when I was in my master's program. And I went to you'll, you'll appreciate this. The American Counseling Association Convention, which happened to be held that year, in Atlanta, I think the year might have been 1992 was even born in what
I just like, I felt like Michael Jackson was still black in 92.
And I remember, you know, so I was a master's student, you know, in the council education program, I was attending the American Counseling Association. I went to the section because I wanted to be around all black folks or the people of color. And so where do you go, you go to, you know, the Association of multicultural counseling development AMCD. AMCD, so I remember going to one of the meetings there. And lo and behold, the speaker was Dr. Thomas Parham. Yes. And so I remember just sort of in May, this is the same time as him that I've been reading about in my multicultural counseling class. And so I, I would just like mesmerizing, and you know, he's, I don't even remember what he spoke about. And so I all I remember is that after he finished speaking, after he was going to speak, and I raised my hand, and I made a comment, I couldn't tell you what I said. But I said something. And whatever it was that I said, It made an impression on him, because he then approached me afterwards, with the psychology of blacks that he had co edited, CO CO written with Joseph white. And I will never forget, like, Oh, my God, I have a signed book from Thomas Bryant. And I remember him telling me that if I thought that conference was, you know, really, like, exciting and powerful, that I should go to the Association of Black Psychologists and I had never heard of the Association of Black Psychologists. I was like, Well, I signed me up, like, how do I do that? And that's how I first found out about it. And that's what led me to, you know, becoming a member of the association by psychologist and my just general interest in the psychological, you know, sort of lives of black folks.
Yeah, that's, I actually talked about that book, often. And the three questions of identity that Joe White talks about in that, that African American in Fanon, and just how important those questions have been in my own birth and development. And so I kind of want to lead us into some of your work. And so mostly, I was excited to have you just because you're the Kevin Cokley. But also because I got a copy of this free, awesome, amazing resource of making Black Lives Matter confronting anti black racism. And so I wanted to get a little more information about what this virtual book is, why it came to be, why it's important in your work, but how it really morphed into what it is now and then why make it free?
Oh, sure. So yes, the there is a story. So I was contacted by an individual named Miguel Gallardo, who is a professor at Pepperdine University, and he was one of the, I guess, editors of this book series produced by cottonelle. Publishers, and that's connected with the Society for the psychological study of culture. And history erases division 45 of the American Psychological Association. And so he reached out to me because he said that Cognoa the publisher was very interested in really trying to be responsive to what was going on own country at the time, particularly around police violence against black communities. And they wanted to do something that just responded to be responsive in that society a moment. And, and so they wanted to produce a book, and they wanted to find someone who, who would lead that. And so he So Miguel, and I guess some other folks got together. And apparently, my name was the first name that came to mind. And so he approached me about leaving this, you know, project. And first of all, I was just like, Why me, like, I'm like, they're, like, so many other people who are just as capable, and perhaps probably more capable than then than I am to do this. But, you know, he said that they really wanted me and, and believed in me and my ability to do and so I asked him to, you know, let me just want to think about it. And, you know, and I spoke with my wife about it, and, and we agree that this, you know, would be a good opportunity. And so, I wanted to learn more about what they sort of envisioned for the book. And the cool thing was, that it was totally my vision. I mean, you know, they, you know, the only thing that they really wanted was something that was, again, responsive to what was going on in society at the time. They wanted it to be something that had diverse contributors. But they gave, but they had really very few parameters like that. They said, Look, this is your vision, you know, you give you it can be an edited book, you can write the book yourself. And I said, No, I think I'll do an editor, but because I don't have time to, to write a book. So an edited book seemed to be more feasible, but they gave me total freedom and license to come up with a title of focus.
contributors, all of that was completely on me. And so that was exciting. I'm like, man like this is, I could really do something powerful here. And so, as I, you know, so I had to really kind of think through what it was that I wanted to accomplish with the book. And, and I didn't want it to be a typical, like, academic book where you just had all like, you know, like PhD folks, you know, professionals, sort of speaking to other professionals, that was not what I wanted for the book. And, and I don't think that's really what the publisher is wanting for the book, I wanted a book that, that was more, that was somewhat more representative of the black community, that would feature voices, not only of, you know, certainly, you know, some academics, but but, but activist, students, clinicians, like I really wanted it to to be representative of the diverse voices, that exists, you know, in our community. And so, I, as I started to think through that, I began to get more excited about the possibilities of what it would mean to be able to, to convene such a collection of diverse voices. And then I had to think through Alright, so what would they talk about? Like, what would you know, and so, I had to sort of really think, and conceptualize, what would be the, the topics of the book. And, and that's where, you know, that took some time. And, and, again, I knew, you know, that there had to be, you know, that they had to be historical component, you know, nothing happens, you know, in a, you know, without sort of being informed by history. So, I knew that, that there had to be a historical component. But, but I wanted to also, you know, sort of touch upon these various themes that I thought were connected to this idea of making Black Lives Matter. And so I knew that policy was important. You know, at the time, I was a director of a policy institute that there was situated within black studies. So I knew that we had to address policy issues. I knew that, you know, activism obviously had to be involved in and I thought about those individuals who, to me represented the epitome of sort of being a scholar, activist. So I knew that that was important. I knew that there had to be a component related to the origins of the Black Lives Matter movement and being these three powerful black women and that there had to be something that addressed, you know, sort of specifically say her name, the hashtag, say, her name sort of movement and, and how, you know, black women really were central to the whole Black Lives Matter movement. I knew I knew that that had to be addressed. And I knew that I wanted to have and I was especially excited by this to have community voices, individuals who would likely never write a book, whose work in a community was so very important. And I wanted their stories to be told. And that's that, I think, probably excited me as much if not more than anything else, and so Been able to sort of, you know, connect with community members that I knew. And I was familiar with their work and had worked with some of them in some instances, and being in fact, you know, what, just as a sidebar, you know, my involvement and the Austin chapter 100, black men, 100, black men of Austin, I do that sort of work, I was familiar with the work of one of the members who had, who was part of a very powerful school that Texas empowerment cat Academy, who has been doing incredible work with majority black kids, kids who had been given up on and he had approached me some time ago, because he wanted their story to be told, and they didn't really have an outlet to be able to tell their story. And, and then when this book sort of idea, this, this book opportunity presented itself, I was like, Wow, this would be the perfect opportunity for me to sort of give them an outlet to tell their story. So anyway, all that to say that, you know, I began to really think through and conceptualize what I wanted the contents of the book to to include, and that, the more that I thought about it, and the more that it started to kind of like be fleshed out, the more excited I became about the possibilities of the book.
Yeah, I, when I first saw this, I was one just really impressed. But then even as I was reading through it, I have never seen a publisher, kind of respond in this manner. And so for our audience, it that it's a letter from the publisher, and just a few things that kind of stood out to me. So one really saying, making Black Lives Matter is a book that is meant to be shared in the spirit of sharing knowledge, since black lives matter to your friends, family and colleagues, discussing your next book club, read the book, to deepen your personal understanding of anti black racism in America, and cultivate or nurture your own anti racist practices. But then I just I love so much that they, they really do point out that this is not for profit, like, the only restrictions imposed upon this content are as follows. No person or entity has the right to sell this book, or any portion of it for profit. And if you are a professor using the book in your courses, the chapters are intended to be used in full. And so I think, for me, it really comes back to this idea of how important the collective knowledge is, and that people receive the information and hopeful chapters and stories by the community members and students and activists that really put their heart and soul into this work to be shared with others.
Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, I wish I could take credit for making the book, free, I cannot take credit for it, even though people, you know, sort of, you know, pat me on my back, that really was the publisher, that was, that was part of the vision of the publisher. And, and when they shared that vision with me, I mean, that, that too, excited me, I'm like, I was like, man, like a publisher that is not interested in profits, that is really just wanting to help to, you know, promote, sort of conversate important conversations and, and to provide, you know, some solutions. I mean, I was just floored by by the publisher, sort of taking that stance and so, so yes, that that, to me, is almost unheard of, I think in the publishing world.
Yes, especially for just the timing of it. It's it's such an important piece of work that really challenges and continues to challenge the ideas of what we saw unfold unfold during the pandemic of George Floyd and others, but especially from the black community, what we've seen, and what we have been seeing happen, really, for decades and generations. I always think of Eric Garner, you know, like George Floyd wasn't the first person to say I can't breathe on on video. Eric Garner was the first person I remember seeing, but he probably wasn't even the first person. For many. It's a really understanding. Like he said that the historical context is just as important as the dialogue and stories.
Yeah, no, I agree. And, you know, I, you know, funny story. I mean, like with the title. You know, when you read a title now, it's like, like, that's so that it's, it's sort of saying obvious, but it took me so long to come up with the title and you probably know that there are several other books out there with very variations of the title, you know, making black lives better, some that have been out for for a little while, and I was just trying to think of a title that that would that be obviously, obviously duplicative of other titles, but that really reflected what I wanted the book to be about. And so if it really was just sort of, like, you know, taking these phrases that we, that have been introduced to our, you know, sort of vocabulary over the past, you know, for years, and then the confronting anti black racism part was really, really important to me, because I want it to communicate that this is going to be a book that really communicates through various voices, how folks have confronted anti black racism, whether as a student, as a community activist, as a clinician, as a as a scholar, activist, you name it all doing all confrontive anti black racism, so that they could drive home this important message that black lives matter, we're gonna make black lives matter, do our work and, and activism. But but coming up that title was not as easy as you might think, I I labored for quite a while, you know, I, you know, I would come up with a title and I would look at it and like, No, this is not gonna work. And I just, I did that for days.
Yeah, and I and I want to kind of touch base with that. So this isn't just bringing voices together and making sure people have access to these stories. But this is was also a personal journey for you, as well, and making sure that it wasn't just successful, but that it really is addressing the things that you have seen throughout your career.
Yeah, well, no, I mean, it's, I think, I'd like to think that everything that I do, you know, as a scholar, or in dare I say, as a scholar activist, is, is personal. And, and this was no different. I mean, it was personal for me. Because of, you know, what, you know, I have observed, what my emotions have been, throughout this period of watching black men and women, you know, be killed is, it seems without any sort of recourse. So, yes, it was very personal. To me, it was personal when I, you know, think about, you know, the legacy that I want to have, that I want to leave. And, you know, as a professor, I've written a number of articles, and those are fine, and they've helped me, you know, get promoted and whatnot. But, you know, when I think about, like, my legacy, and what I want to be remembered for, this book became a very important part of that, because I want people to be able to say that, that I wrote something or that I that I helped bring together something that that made a difference that, that spoke to the moment. And that helped people have conversations that will lead to, to action, that oh, that will give people some hope that there's some something that can be done to help make black lives matter. So So, yeah, so it was very personal for me.
Yeah, and I'm wondering, along those lines, like, where, what are your suggestions for where people start? Right? So, confronting anti black racism, really? How do we help make black lives matter? Like, what does that even look like?
Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, you know, to me, it's sort of it's it goes to that that old saying, you know, speaking truth to power like, you know, being not being afraid to, to say, the difficult things that say that the things that that need to be said, at the times in which things are the most volatile. It means, you know, sometimes being willing to not be popular. It means it means doing being willing to put oneself in the fire and doing the work that it was requires to affect change. I mean, all of that, and then some. So if you know when, to me, making Black Lives Matters should be more than a bumper sticker should be more than a hashtag, it should be more than just something that that rolls off the tip of one's tongue. Because, you know, there are a lot of people who opposes out there a lot of people who are sort of bandwagon activist, you know, who will, you know, they'll, you know, they'll say making that black, they'll say black lives matter, you know, and you'll see them with the superficial adornments of like Black Lives Matter, you to paraphernalia, but I want to know what you're doing. Like, I want to know, what is the work that you're doing that actually is making black lives matter. That to me, is where the rubber hits the road? Yeah, so
let's tease that out a little bit. So when you say, the work you're doing, you know, I hear a lot of action in you said action yourself. But for us, like, is the work just reading your book? Is it making sure passively donate to organizations? What does that work look like?
Well, I mean, here's the thing, like I, I am loath to offer, a one size fit all blueprint of what that work looks like? Like, I mean, you know, so for example, you know, some people have said to me, Look, Kevin, I, I'm not, I'm not a martyr, like, you know, when, when, when people are out there, and, you know, protesting, and they're like, that's not me, I. So if that's what it means to be sort of like an activist and in support of Black Lives Matter movement, then that's not me. And that, you don't have to do that. Like, that's not, that's not for everyone. But certainly there are other ways that you can, you can do that, you know, in in your own life within your own sort of personal space or sphere, where you are, you know, doing something to actively sort of confront a challenge racism, either in your, amongst your friends, family, workplace, where where you are doing something that that is, is, is going to sort of benefit? You certainly donations. I mean, you know, that's, that's somewhat easy. I mean, people can do that. I don't want to diminish that, you know, certainly, if you can contribute to various organizations or charities, that's always a good thing. But no, I mean, I, you know, I would, what I would tell people is, is that look within your own sort of sphere of influence, and, and try to see what what ways, you know, you can sort of make a difference in this fight against anti black racism, you don't have to go out and you don't have to sort of like, you know, you know, protest and March. And that's not for everyone. And they say, I don't know that I've seen you out there on a march line, but you may have been
so much violence in this, I just, I tell my students all the time, I'm not a martyr, but I will make a mean, peanut butter jelly sandwich, I will hand out balls of water, I won't be out in the streets. The streets are not for me. But I believe in the movement and the hard work. And I will make sure that people are fed and clothed and taken care of. And I'll even help make a sign, but I won't be out carrying the sign. Like you said, we all play a role. And our roles all look very, very different. And so I want to tie in this article because and I feel like it fits. It's not a direct fit. But you and your team just released this article COVID-19 racial injustice synonymic and mental health among black Americans the roles of general and race related COVID worry, cultural mistrust and perceived discrimination. I'm hoping that we can touch base a little bit on what what is cultural mistrust? And how has that really been impacted by COVID?
Yeah. So, so culture mistress as a term has been around since probably the 70s. And it refers to this idea. It's almost like an attitude or no disposition that it originally applied to black folks, but you know, now has been applied to other minoritized groups, but it's from its origination, this sort of attitude and a disposition of black folks to be perpetually mistrustful of white institutions. And white people. It's something that, you know, we you know, many of us have been socialized, you know, and not even like consciously but just sort of, almost unconsciously socialized to have this sort of pervasive mistrust around, you know, white institutions and in many instances, white people. And it's a it's a very prominent psychological disposition that is present among many, not necessarily all, but certainly many, many black folks. And in the black psychology literature, you know, it is a very, very prominent theme.
Yeah. And that leads me into my first question. So, when really thinking about this, are there times in mental health when we no longer need to focus on doing anti blackness work? Like, is there a moment that we've arrived, we can stop the efforts or the protesting or the push?
I mean, you know, I guess if we find ourselves living in a utopia, then that that might actually, you know, happen, I don't see that happening in my lifetime. So I'm going to say, probably no time soon, it would be by response.
I appreciate the honesty, it's so along those lines. How do you clinicians, people in communities, engage with the cultural mistrust, and continue to do this anti blackness work?
Well. So let me let me sort of break that apart, let me if I could just sort of speak more, more generally about culture mistrust, because culture mistrust is a really interesting construct. And that there are different views on is its adaptability, and whether it's a whether it actually serves by people well or not. And you could probably anticipate the arguments. So if I go back to, for example, that classic article, quarterback psychology by by Dr. Joseph white, and he talks about, he doesn't use specifically the term cultural distress, but he does talk more generally about having missed, you know, sort of mistrust and by black people, being sort of mistrustful and, and he positions it as, as a, a healthy cultural adaptation on black people. His argument back then, was that black people needed to have a healthy dose of mistrust of white people, in order to just because of, you know, thinking, again, if you think about the timeframe in which it was written, that, that black folks needed needed to be hyper vigilant around racism, and having a certain amount of mistrust was actually adaptive. And he even went so far, and I'm just sort of paraphrasing here, he even went so far as to sort of basically say, you know, if you show him a black person, who who possesses no mistrust, you know, he'll show you a black person who's going to end up having some sort of some some sort of problems, adapting, you know, to, essentially, you know, white society, I mean, so. So that was his position. And that has been long been, I think, the position of many folks who have sort of studied sort of culture, Mistress, but then there's the flip side, where, you know, it has been argued that culture Mistress isn't may not always be adaptive and that one can, can be so mistrustful that it it turns out to not be in one's best interest, you know, you know, the person who is so you know, so mistrustful of white students, white people that it starts with it, like, you know, almost like an anti being like anti white, I guess, anti white people, you know, and, and making more almost like paranoid, you know, just to be in the presence of white people. And so, so there's always been this really interesting, dynamic around sort of culture mistrust, you know, is it? Is it adaptive, you know, for mental health? Or does it actually sort of exacerbate and make worse, you know, sort of, like mental health? And then and there's not a clear cut answer. You know, certainly empirically for that for that question. And, you know, so I would say that for for practitioners who are working with black folks, and I think culture mistrust is something to be very much aware of, and that, that, you know, you need to try to assess what role customers plus play like well, I don't know role is the right word. You need to try to assess a mistress
sorry, influence the influence? Yeah, maybe maybe,
maybe the the influence of culture mistrust in the lives of your black clients, and you need to try to assess whether that influence is adaptive. or not, and I think a skilled clinician should be able to do that. So in other words, you don't you don't go in with any preconceived notions about what our customers trust is bad or good. You, you ask questions, and you try to see what role it actually serves in that client's life. So so it's always, you know, if you think about, you know, like this, you know, scientist, being a scientist practitioner is always an empirical question. That is that needs to be sort of verified based on the information that you received from your clients. Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely. So you're, you're really saying, don't assume that they have it, but also don't assume that they don't? And do your work to really understand how, when and if it shows up for your, your black clients, or even really clients of color? And then when it does, do your homework and your your research to figure out how to address that? And how to understand if it's adaptable or not, because some people have that adaptability, while others don't. But they they're still showing up in counseling, because they do want mental services. And they do want help.
Right, exactly. Exactly. That and the other. The other thing that I would add to that, and I think you sort of said it is is that you should don't assume that it is good or bad that it's adaptive, or non adaptive. You you let your clients tell you that to do their stories, do their narratives.
Yeah. And I also think, like, while you're talking, I also think how important it is, as a clinician to not get defensive, or have your your feelings hurt by the cultural mistrust. Like, it may not have actually anything to do with the person sitting in front of them. It's, it's the life experiences that they've had before that moment, and then bringing all of that with them into the counseling room.
Yeah, exactly. And I'd also like to talk about within the context of this article, is, I think that was sort of like why you brought it up and when, when we were so just a little bit of background about this article. So the sociation back psychologies, along with the other thing, psychological associations were brought in, were came together to do a needs assessment for our various communities to examine the impact that COVID was having on our, you know, sort of respective communities. And so for the social Association by psychologists, I was one of the researchers asked to be involved in this, this effort. And as we were so so there was a certain amount of certain data that was going to be common across all of these ethnic psychological associations, because we wanted to be able to, to have, we wanted to be able to say, certain things that that was common across all groups, relative to data. But we also wanted to include culturally specific things that we that we believe for our respective groups would be especially significant or most salient for our communities. And so when we were sort of conceptualizing, like what data we would collect, you know, I remember, I think I was one of the people who really strongly suggested that we collect cultural mistrust data, you know, for, you know, the black community, and also, I think, maybe someone made the suggestion, but I also thought the Proceed discrimination was going to be also a very important, you know, data to collect so, so it anyway, you know, these were things that we, you know, sort of collected among as a huge data set, there's a lot of different variables that we have. And the reason that I wanted culture mistress included, was because of, of the discussion that was taking place in the media, around vaccine hesitancy amongst black people, you know, at that time, where it was being suggested by every media outlet that you could hear that, that black folks were not getting vaccinated or hesitant about getting vaccinated, it was being linked to the Tuskegee experiment, and that the as a result that I folks were just, they didn't trust, you know, medicine, they didn't trust, you know, essentially, you know, white folks and medicine and they, and vaccines or whatever. So I thought I said, Well, this is being said, but there's zero data, like literally like there's not a shred of data that would either support or not support that. So I thought that this would be a good opportunity to actually collect data so that we could more competently Determine whether, in fact, closer mistress was one of the reasons why that could explain, you know, vaccine vaccine hesitancy. So that's how it came to be involved or included in the study. So we had this item that asked respondents about their vaccination status. And so I think it was an item that they had like four responses. I think the item was like, you know, have you like, Have you been vaccinated or something along those lines? And the four responses was something like No, and I don't want to tend to get vaccinated. No, but I plan on getting vaccinated. Yes, and I've had one shot. And yes, I've had two shots, I think those were the four options. And so what I, you know, what I sort of proposed doing was looking to see if there were differences, you know, and if you take those four responses, if you sort of divide them up as like, you know, categories, people so to speak, I was interested in seeing that there were differences in culture mistrust between these four different categories. Now, initially, you know, when we did the analysis, I didn't find, I didn't find any differences. And so I was like, ah, that's counter to what I think we all expected. So being the stats nerd that I am, I had to really sort of play into data. And one of the things that I did was, you know, I controlled for essential worker status. Now, why was that important? Well, what one of the things that we knew was that if you were an essential worker,
essential workers at that time, had to go to work, regardless of whether they wanted to or not, and regardless of whether they were vaccinated or not so, so I thought it was important to control for, you know, because if we had people who are essential workers, who were responding to that item that needed to be accounted for before, you could really sort of determine whether culture was trust, whether they were customers just emphasis. So once we account, so once we control for essential worker status, and we ran the analysis, lo and behold, we found that there were in fact, differences in culture mistrust across the groups in ways that you would expect. So the individuals who said no, I am not, I have not been vaccinated, and I do not plan on getting vaccinated or even the individuals who said, No, I have not been vaccinated. But I do plan on it. They were significantly higher in culture mistrust than individuals who were who had gotten vaccinated and have seen one, two shots. So that was significant. We finally had data to support everything that the media was reporting, but had no data to support it. So of all the findings in there and the number of other findings to me, that was one of the most exciting findings from the study.
Yet it really speaks to how important the national dialogue can be versus if it's based off anything like the assumption that it's there could be a fair assumption, like, Oh, this is the reason why people are not getting vaccinated. But without a clear connection, then how do you say like, oh, this is why Latinx communities are not getting vaccinated. This is why Asian American communities are not getting vaccinated. Yeah, the data really does have to show up so that we can have a better conversation, but then also, how do we address it without knowing the data?
Know Exactly. And the other thing, and I'm trying to remember the, the timing, so I don't remember. I write a blog for Psychology Today. And it's a blog on, you know, essentially a black psychology bar. And one of the blogs that I entries that I wrote was for was regarding this idea sort of like backs, vaccine hesitancy and why black folks were hesitant to get vaccinated. And I wrote it, and part of what I talked about was a conversation that I have with my mom. And, you know, and again, that the national narrative was black folks were getting vaccinated because of tusky. And because, you know, there's no this pervasive mistrust of medical establishments, and anything related to that. So I remember so I had a conversation with my mom. And and it was, again, it was early on, and my mom, you know, she at that time, she wasn't vaccinated. I mean, she is now but at that time, early on, she wasn't vaccinated. And I said, Mom, are you? Are you dad? You know, you're all good. First of all, are you vaccinated? No. Are you dad? Are you going to get vaccinated? And her answer was, she didn't know. And I was like, Is this because of the Tuskegee experiment? And she said, what, you know, the Tuskegee experience She was like, I was like, Have you heard the Tuskegee experiment? And she was like, I've heard of the Tuskegee Airmen. I know, I've heard a little bit about them. But she didn't know anything about the Tuskegee experiment. And and so it kind of baby. So I was like, Well, okay, it's not because of the Tuskegee experiment, clearly, cuz you don't know what that is. So I was like, So why, what's the hesitancy about? And for her? The hesitancy, the hesitancy was about who was the president at a time. And it was Donald Trump. And she was like, I'm not going to take any anything that is that is be recommended by him or someone who was representative of him. She didn't trust. Now, when Anthony Fauci started to promote it. And he was, he was a credible, trustworthy source. Then she was like, Okay, I, he's someone that I trust, I will not I now feel more comfortable with it. So, so that what I mean, that's, that's an anecdote. But I think it's an anecdote that's probably rooted in some reality. Because those of us who are who are in the academy, like we, like I, we know about the Tuskegee experiment, we know about it, because when we had to go through IRB, and you know, you'd have to know about it. But we should not assume that the black community writ large is so intimately familiar with the Tuskegee experiment. And that's not the case if my mom is any indication.
Yeah. And it's, I've been doing some mental health disparities work with them Health Policy here at my university. And I had a similar conversation about Johnson and Johnson, like, this idea of human being like, Well, why will people get why will black and brown folks get the Johnson I'm just like, Have you not heard all of the craziness that happened with Johnson and Johnson as a company in black and brown communities. And for some, there is no connection because they didn't come from parents or families that ever use baby powder, or talc. But in my family, that was like a staple, like baby powder was the staple. And then as soon as my mom found out that Johnson and Johnson was be like, sued for millions of dollars, and all this stuff was coming out, I remember her being like, I can't believe a company that I trusted so much would do something like this to us. And so I do think it shows up for all of our communities in different ways. But how they arrive at that mistrust is so impactful of our own life experiences and our own identities. So like, my black identity is different than your own. And so that cultural mistress, is completely different in our upbringing, but it shows it could show up the same when it comes to vaccination status, or what happens next door? What do we see kind of unfold? depending on who's the president or who is advocating for kind of that social change?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, that's so so interesting. So I have a few questions for you in wanting to kind of tie all this back together. So the first one is really, for Counselor Educators or educators in generals, either at the masters level or undergrad? What are ways for them to incorporate understanding to their students of what cultural mistress is? Or how to confront anti black racism?
So how, so how can What are some ways that Counselor Educators can can incorporate culture mistrust?
Not only teaching, like, how are we teaching it? How do we help others understand something so complex when us ourselves may not fully understand it?
Yeah, no, it's, you know, it's it's one of those things where, where, if you have not been part, if you've not been part of a historically oppressed minoritized community, it's really, really hard to to wrap your mind around it, you understand? I mean, you know, so just perfect example. Why is that such a profound difference of opinion of attitude regarding the police, you can look at any sort of major opinion poll and, and black folks opinions and attitudes about police will be almost always significantly lower than that of white people. And, and so, that's based on history that's based on the stories that we've been told that's been based there. based on things that we've witnessed in many instances, and so, so regarding cultural mistrust, I, you know, I would tell Counselor Educators, particularly those who are not from communities that have had a history of needing to be culturally mistrustful that it's that you really need to, to understand the histories of the people that you are working with. I remember years ago, Thomas Parham, and, you know, when, when, when that's upon him was, you know, more sort of actively writing. He would write things that would upset with upset people, mostly white people. Because he did not he did not mince words, you know, he just sort of, he just sort of said, what he believed, needs to be said, and, and one of the things that he he talks about regarding, like, multicultural competence. You know, he, he argued that, if you're truly going to be multiculturally, competent, you know, and he was raising, he was setting a very, very high bar, that you need to take classes, on the histories of every group of people that you're going to be working with. And when people first read it, they were like, Oh, my God, that's impossible. We'll be in school forever. And you know, and maybe, maybe, practically, maybe that's not very practical, very practical. But if you sort of take his point, his point was, how can you work with a group of people when you don't know or understand their history. And so I would say for if you're working with black folks, you can't talk about culture mistrust. If you don't understand the history of black people and understand why culture mistrust is such a powerful, powerful psychological dynamic within our communities. I mean, other because what ends up happening is is that it becomes, it becomes just this sort of abstract, intellectual construct, like you can you can tell me what the definition is, but you don't really understand it, because you don't really understand the history. Why? Why should black folks be culturally mistrustful toward white students, white people, and so, so without, I won't go so far as to say you have to take a class on the history of evolution, the people that you're working with, although I don't think that's a bad idea, but what it does suggest is that you have to be in a constant state of education. And that's why continuing education is so important, right? That you can't assume that you know, what you need to know about the populations that you are sort of working with, and that if you are serious about being multiculturally competent, that you will do this extra work, so that you will always be you know, that you will also that you're constantly sort of learning and growing as a clinician. And so if you're going to be dealing with culture mistrust, you have to be that you have to have that sort of intellectually inquisitive orientation, if you're going to be able to sort of incorporate it effectively, in the work that you're doing. Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely. It really makes me think of, like, here in New Mexico, we have a ton of just indigenous communities who are living on tribal lands. And, and recently read something that said, it's not just the land acknowledgement. So it's not just the Oh, like I am currently on Navajo lands, right? It's your where your houses, how did your house come to be there? So not just the acknowledgement that you kind of know the history? But do you actually understand why the land acknowledgement is so important? And the importance comes from the fact that now that community has like a tiny plot of acreage, but before this whole entire state of New Mexico was theirs. So if you really want to work with them, understanding that, as they drive through town, at one point, that town was there, like this was theirs, and now it's not theirs. And so if that is something that is an everyday reminder for them, it goes beyond them, the land acknowledgement for you to know what that means. And then to really understand the significance of what it's like for them to walk through spaces where there were indigenous communities are treated as different when 100 years ago, they were the only people to walk these lands. And so I think the same in black communities as well and in other communities of color is really understanding and you're not I agree, you're not going to learn all of it in one fitting or all of it. You have to do your own work on that, but just in understanding the historical cultural context of your clients, and how that story comes to be, so not just what they tell you, but doing little work, you know, if if they identify as Afro Caribbean, what does that actually mean? And then what what what was it like for them to then come to the US and like, finally be in front of you in your counseling room? Not just the Okay, Kevin, tell me why you're here. And I'm just going to focus on your right now. And not even think about the context of outside of this room, socially, politically, family wise, that really is probably impacting your mental health heavily. And how you feel as I sit across from you. That's right. Yeah. This was awesome. I feel like I need like five more episodes with you. Because there's so many things to talk about. And I just like I want to know all of it. Um, but I want to end with two questions. So the first question is, what is one thing you would tell students who are interested in doing social justice work?
One thing that I would tell students who are interested in doing social justice work I would say that you do the work, not for the recognition that you do the work. Because it's the right thing to do that it's it's morally it is morally, and ethically the right things to do. And they in doing that work, you should know that it will not always be embraced, you will not always receive affirmation. But you shouldn't do the work to receive affirmation, you should do the work because it's the right thing to do. Yeah, that was powerful.
Anything else to say that? I'm actually speechless. Um, so to make
to make Desa Daniel speechless is not easy
I just don't understand why. I always very much appreciate you and in honor of our friendly banter, I want to ask you my last question before our final thoughts. So you talked about the beginning of being a master student at ACA and going to MCB and hearing Thomas farm talk and sitting there and be like, wow, like this is the Thomas pothead. So I want to know is what is it like to be the Kevin Coakley, like now that you're like Thomas Farahan. But you're Dr. Kevin Cokley, like what is it like to speak at AMCD, or division 45, or AP plenary, which is one of the first times I heard you speak to the masses? What is that like to be like the Kevin Cokley?
Well, it it I sometimes have to pinch myself because it feels a bit surreal. I mean, it's probably one of the reasons why I'm interested in the imposter phenomenon. Because I, I still sometimes feel like an imposter because I can't believe that I that people see me as being that person. You know, who you know, some people will put on a pedestal it just doesn't even seem real or feel real. But I know that it is. So yeah, it's it's still even at this point in my career, it still feels a little surreal at times.
I just appreciate how humble you are. I feel like that was a moment for your the old Kevin High School Cokley to be like, I got this, I'm killing it killing the game. So as we finish as we wrap up any final thoughts about either your book or the work that you're doing? What are some things that you want us to look out for in the next couple of months? January and and beyond that you could be doing?
Well, I'm, you know, always trying to continue to advance my work. And, you know, and again, we didn't really talk much about my work on the imposter phenomenon, but I'm especially excited about the direction that that work is going and particularly around sort of better understanding what I am sort of calling a racialized imposter phenomenon, because I do believe that while the imposter phenomenon is a fairly common experience across groups, that for minoritized news. And I'm going to talk specifically you know about rifles because, you know, I am rooted in black psychology, that that the experience of imposter ism takes on a somewhat different nature, then then a more general sort of, you know, sort of imposter feelings that I think, you know, many people are familiar with. So, so I'm going to continue doing work in that area. You know, I'm in early, early, early stages of sort of trying to create a scale with my graduate students. And that's going to take some time. But I am very excited about that work.
That's awesome. It really is just another reason for me to have you back. So then I can talk to you about that as well. And remind everyone that you are the Kevin Cokley, um, thank you so much for taking time to really explain to us how the book came together, how the voices are really supported, and how important it was for those stories to be told by people living those experiences directly. And even though it wasn't your idea, I think it's such a true testament to not taking credit and not expecting to your credit to make it free. And in making it open so that people don't have any excuse whatsoever to engage with it and use it and really incorporate it into their work. I'm also just incredibly grateful for all of your scholarship and your your activism, especially with this paper in CUNY psychology on COVID-19. But then also your imposter work and all of the many different assets and in dimensions of talking about the black experience and really centering black voices. So I am incredibly grateful for you today and your time. But really just for your willingness to share your voice with others and encourage us to keep working and really becoming our own scholar, activist, and some way in our own work.
Oh, well, thank you very much for having me, of course.
So again, I am here with Dr. Kevin Cokley, he does have a website and social media, Twitter. It always could be updated, but he does have them and so please follow him. We will link in the show notes, a link to the paper as well as the free book. Please, please, please, if you have the time and effort and the willingness to incorporate this work. You can Google that right now. So making Black Lives Matter, confronting anti black racism. Thank you and have a great day. Thank you.
The Thoughtful Counselor is, Désa Daniel, Raissa Miller, Aaron Smith, Jessica Tyler, Stacey Diane Arañez Litam, and me, Megan Speciale. Find us online at concept.paloaltou.edu. Our funding is provided by Palo Alto University’s Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about them at concept.paloaltou.edu. The views and opinions expressed on The Thoughtful Counselor are those of the individual authors and contributors and don’t necessarily represent the views of other authors and contributors or of our sponsor Palo Alto University. So, if you have an idea for an episode, general feedback about the podcast, or just want to reach out to us, please drop us a line at thethoughtfulcounselor@gmail.com. Thanks for tuning in and we hope to hear from you soon.
