Lift As You Rise: Getting Involved in Counseling Leadership and Advocacy

8:10PM Sep 9, 2023

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Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.

Okay, hello, and welcome. Thank you for tuning in today for our interview with our guest, Dr. Carlos Cielito. Delgado, counselor, educator, researcher, esteemed leader extraordinaire, across so many different counseling organizations. And honestly, when Derek and I were first chatting about, you know, who are we going to invite to this podcast? What are we you know, this is a this is a an episode on navigating counseling leadership, and really how to get involved. And we both immediately thought of you, especially as you are one of our mentors for this inaugural cohort of the Leadership Academy for the Association of counselor education and supervision. So, thank you so much for being here, Carlos.

Oh, thanks for having me. It's absolutely my pleasure to be here. And thank you for your kind words, your check will be in the mail for those kinds of reasons.

Just slide it under the table. Right? Well, I think it's worth mentioning that when when we first asked you to join, for this interview today, you warned us that your path into leadership was a bit roundabout, right, a sort of hodgepodge experience of some ambitious mentors really like thrusting and bolstering you into these positions. And I don't know about you, Derek. But when I first heard that, I was like, Okay, same. Yes, same, I had no idea what I was doing in the beginning. And if it were not for these really important and loving, generous people in my life at the earlier stages of my career, I definitely I would not have even known how to put my foot in the door.

Well, you all brought it up, I thought about, you know, it probably be really powerful to have somebody who had thought this forward and had a goal and a mission and, you know, a plan of action, at the very least that to set them up and back up. That's not me. I feel like this whole doctoral journey and into leadership. I feel like I just fell into things. Right Place Right Time, right mentors, as you mentioned?

Yeah. Well, frankly, I think that that's a, that's a story that a lot of us can resonate with. And that's one of the reasons why we're developing the Leadership Academy is to help people become more intentional and have it. You know, I think for so many of us, it was just right place, right time, and right mentors. And there's not a lot of agency in that, right, you're just kind of waiting around for people to support you. And unfortunately, you know, many of us have had great supports. But that's not the case for everyone in our field. Right. So I just, I am really excited to hear your story today. And also, I think, you know, you're a full professor right now you've been in the field for a little bit, you're able to kind of look back and say, What do I wish I had had? Or what could I have done differently? And I think that's going to be really meaningful for folks who are really just like fresh out the gates or even mid career who are looking for a little bit of guidance on you know, like, what steps could I be taking right now?

Well, I'll do my best to try to provide those insights. But yeah, there's definitely some points that were like, No, that probably wasn't the best idea at that particular point in my career. So yeah, I'll definitely try to reflect on those and bring some of that in here.

I echo those same thoughts. I'm really excited to be able to hear aspects of your journey as it relates to leadership. And I'm wondering if you might even start by just telling us in telling us a little bit about yourself and introducing yourself a little bit more as you would like to and then maybe talk about if you would maybe some of your current leadership roles and maybe share a little bit about that.

All right, well, I'm gonna give you the full name in Spanish once and then we can default to Carlos. That works just as okay, but the full name once in Spanish got Porfirio Ippolito Delgado, is the full piece. I'm a professor, as y'all mentioned that CU Denver, I've been here in this current goal around at CU Denver for about, I think this is year 10. And I teach primarily in our school counseling program. My specialty coming out of my doctoral program was school counseling. However, I do more research around kind of youth civic involvement and Civic Engagement recently, how young people get involved in their schools in their communities. And that's a lot of fun. I get to play with a lot of high school students in the Denver area. I'm a father, father to my daughter just started high school this week, and my son is a seventh grader. So that's, that's a little bit there. What else can I tell you? I'm the youngest of four. So after the podcast is done, you can tell me if that aligns with all those couples and family birth order things. My students like to tell me that that highway fit into those dynamics. I'm a first generation college student, my sister was the first in my family to go to college. I followed her about nine years after no more than that, like 10 years after, but I beat her to a doctorate. So I think that's gotta count for something. She has her doctorate as well. We're originally from Los Angeles, California. I had lived there most of my life, I would really been here in Denver, like I mentioned, for about 10 years. One other fun tidbit I like to share with folks is I'm a hat collector, I collect baseball hats. I've got a collection of roughly 300 baseball caps. Many of them custom, you know, limited edition type type stuff. So anybody listening never wants to talk about hats. We'll be more than enthused to do that. So this is a little bit about me personally. In terms of leadership. Currently, I am the parliamentarian for the authorities Rivera, the president of the American Counseling Association, so I'll be working with him on the Governing Council this year. I've served as the parliamentarian one other times. What that should tell you is I'm a nerd. I'm a nerd. I like counseling theory. I like rules and regulations. I love ethics. And I love parliamentary procedure. So we used to practice it at the dinner table. And that's how I got to be good at it with my son and my daughter. My son always insisted on being the chair, and really shutting down any motions that they came across the table. But there's a little more insight. I'm also the past Governing Council rep for the Association for multicultural counseling development. I was also their president. And I have served on the AC foundation. So I was a trustee on the foundation for a little while as well. Yeah, so those are some of the big ones. Oh, I almost forgot I was treasurer for the counselors for social justice for a number of years as well.

Thanks, Carlos. That is a lot. That's a lot of service. It's a lot of leadership. And I'm I'm reflecting on how there's a that you're, you're doing the kind of the macro, macro level of service and also taking on those leadership roles within your community and your civic engagement working with high school kids. And even at the dinner table, which is like that the micro right like that's it the dinner table is our micro right there. So you're spanning across each of these different levels. It just a joy to learn a little bit more about who you are, you know, I It's probably been a, you know, a journey to get to where you are now. And I'm wondering if you can think about like, what was your first counseling leadership position when you actually felt like I'm in a position right now where I'm, you know, I'm responsible for like elevating the voices of my constituents.

Wow, I think that was the treasurer of CSJ. I was I think it was the last year of my doctoral program. I made the mistake of speaking up a conference session. I believe it was a conference session around like Latino mental health. And I asked the question, and that caught the attention of a few people. And when that session was over, I was told that I needed to get more involved in in leadership, and folks would be finding something for me to do. So it feels kind of weird, because most of the grad students I talked to like I would tell them don't do that. Like get involved in a committee get involved, you know, at a local level in in your grad program, you know, at the state level but the This was kind of presented to me. And it was presented to me by somebody I respected. And when somebody you respect asks you to do something, you know, when an elder asks you to do something, you do it growing up in a very traditional Mexican household. If an elder asked you to do something, there's not a quick questioning of it, you follow through. And I did have about doubts about it. And I talked to my advisor at the time. So my mentor was Courtland Lee. And I spoke to Dr. Lee about it. And and I said, you know, this is this is what's going on? Does this feel appropriate, and he said, they could use you, you should do it. And so that was that first step. And it was so like fish out of water. Because jumping into, you know, CSJ is one of the bigger divisions of ACA, but it's that big enough division. And there's enough folks that I respected that were doing social justice work, that were involved, that it was intimidating. You know, who is hired to bring up ideas about the direction of the organization, when there were all these other welding folks who were involved. So he was intimidating as all hack. And it probably took a couple of years for me to get comfortable in that space. But even then, I don't think I ever thought like, Oh, I'm a leader. The nice thing about that role, is it God's servant. My job was to protect the finances of the organization, to make sure we were responsible, and to make sure our members are getting the benefit. So maybe that was a little bit of a protective factor. I didn't have to think of myself as this leader, but rather, like I was serving the association. I don't know if that actually answered your question. But another day, think about it. See, here's the bad thing about full professors, we just can talk and we're used to people listening to us talk, hey, you're

being interviewed today. That's the, that's the whole point, we want to make,

you made the mistake of inviting me. And now if you laugh, it's gonna get worse. Because I've

done this. Well, you know, it sounds to me like you, you were able to kind of your you are fit into this position, you were able to make that work in your head by reframing it as an ability to serve your community as an ability to safeguard those things that you hold near and dear. And then the title of leadership only came, you know, years later, when you can reflect on that and see that as being a leadership position. But at the time, especially being, you know, a little Freshy doc student being like, okay, like this, I can make sense of this in my own development by seeing this as an opportunity to serve.

And I think there's a cultural aspect to that as well. And in the cultural aspect of giving back. Right, in being a part of a community, but not necessarily being the voice of the community that just resonates. And it probably resonates in a number of communities of color, but it definitely resonates coming from a Mexican background. So that I think that made sense. But to be honest, like, even moving forward, like I can say, yeah, these positions I've held or leadership positions, because I know that's what they're titled. But I'm not sure the I even to this day, feel like a leader.

I make sense of this as being a servant to the point that sometimes it feels dirty, to want to position. And I'm going to flash forward a little bit. I was nominated to run for president of ACA last year.

I didn't want to want it because wanting it felt dirty. It felt like putting myself in front of everything else. Being nominated and even seeing it that way. Like I didn't ask to be nominated. Somebody put me forward to be nominated. That feel more genuine stepping into this position to serve both thought right. But as that election got close, and as we were waiting for results, there was a part of me that wanted to win. And that got nasty. I don't know if that makes any sense. And if it does it, got it out in this pot. But because he I don't know, part of it feels off topic from what we were talking about. But it's also just honest, like making where he was talking about, like, how do you make sense out of where you're at and what you're doing and why you're doing. And the way I've always made sense of it is this, this service to others, this is not about me being in front.

That's the thing that I keep hearing that, that you keep coming back to over the last couple of minutes is really just the importance of, you know, not necessarily seeing yourself as a leader, but seeing yourself as someone who wants to serve others who wants to be in service of others, in support of this ultimate goal of the organization of the broader group. I mean, that's the thing that that keeps, that keeps resonating for me as you're talking. And I definitely can hear the the, the thoughts around, not wanting to necessarily take the position, but at the same time still seeing yourself as being useful and a servant to others, if you were to be able to get that, that position, whatever that might be in those instances. So so that definitely resonates for me for sure, based on what you're sharing

what I think in different cultures like, right, there's that similar type of mentality, right, like I've written in African American groups, the lift as you rise, kind of mantra. And, and I think of my mother, and my mother, always told me that I had certain opportunities that other folks have my background when. And because of that, it was my responsibility to work on behalf of those folks that didn't have those opportunities. So maybe that's where it started, right? That, that leadership and entering into leadership should be about service.

I'm wondering to that point. Because one of the things that has kind of been a theme that you've kind of talked about a lot already is talking about aspects of your cultural identities and your background and how you brought that into just your conceptualization of leadership, how you're thinking about leadership, even whether or not you want to even see yourself, as a leader defining yourself as a leader. I'm wondering if you might speak a little bit about aspects of how you think about cultural identity and diversity as it has informed your thinking about leadership and, and even that service even a little bit more than what you've already kind of shared?

You know, Derek, I don't think I can be me without also being my culture and my heritage, to be the skin color, to have my name. To value what I think is important to me. I have to carry that with me. And it's, it's an essential part of me, right. And so that's something that I think I've struggled with within leadership is finding that balance and, and to be honest, even entering higher ed. Right, there was a part of me that saw going into a doctoral program is selling out. I will be participating in a white institution. So I did things to force myself to remember who I was. I don't think I've ever talked about that. I've got tattoos. I've got indigenous tattoos on my body. Indigenous Mexican tattoos on my body that I saw would force me to remember who I was, so that I wouldn't sell out. Oh, man, I don't think I've ever talked about that publicly, anywhere. I'm still have the old school enough generation, that having tattoos and being professional don't go together. But part of that has always been this balance. How do I do enough to work in a system that isn't necessarily designed for me? While still ringing true to who I am? Right? And part of that is yeah, I consider myself very much a radical Chicano was very. I don't know how to say it. I guess some folks would say a leftist. agenda. I would say it's a progressive, inclusive agenda, right perspective. But you've got to balance that if I came at somebody with that. And that's not the way they're coming at things. And we're not going to get stuff done together in a room, right? Leadership and change isn't going to happen. So it's this constant balancing. In I want to say I got good at it or better at it when I got to the associate level, but as an assistant, and in those early leadership positions, it was hard to think about like, Okay, how do I keep those values in place, whilst still undertaking and serving in association? I think where I was lucky is those initial involvements. My initial involvements were CSJ, and the Association for multicultural and count In development, which were inclusive, right, like, don't get me wrong, all associations can be better and continue to work to be more inclusive spaces. And I butted heads with people in both associations over when I felt we weren't being inclusive enough. But I think that helped, that helped was finding that space where I could continue to cultivate that part of me. And, and still work towards these kinds of leadership dynamics. Other pieces, were watching and learning. You know, seen some people do it wrong. And again, I'm not trying to be judgmental, but seeing some folks that were I felt, you know, either too harsh, too abrasive, or, or too docile, and not representing those parts of themselves? To then realize that okay, well, Where's, where's that balance for me? What am I willing to sacrifice and let go? And what can I absolutely not let go at all? And that's a tough question to answer, right? Like, I'm gonna look at the both of you, like, I'm sure you have similar experiences, and in higher ed and leadership, right? I don't know how we make those decisions, we just credit do right.

I really I am, I'm sitting here I'm appreciating the gift of of you sharing and naming that, that dissonance that, that pull on either side, to be your whole self to show up in these spaces as your whole self, and also recognizing the very real limitations and barriers to being a whole self, being a whole self with all of your stories and your identities in spaces that were not built for you or by you, we're not crafted to support you, and having to navigate a balance that feels authentic, and, and also, you know, helps propel you toward, you know, whatever you whatever that goal is that you have with involvement in that leadership, right, like the servant leadership, the, you know, the really, you know, the protection of the voices and the mission and all of that. And I'm, I'm wondering, like, knowing that there are younger in terms of the stage and not necessarily age, but there are a younger counselors and counselors and training listening to this episode, that may be actively navigating that, that that that pressure, that whole self pressure, and I think you've already shared some strategies that you've used to navigate those spaces. But I'd love to hear you talk more about for folks who are just starting to get in the field, how they might be able to find that balance, maybe in ways that you initially struggled with when you first got started, or in ways that you really excelled in, but things that folks can can do to help nurture that whole self in spaces that are predominantly white or, you know, hierarchical in nature, or etc.

So you got me thinking three things, let's see if we, if I remember ultimately to talk about all three of those things. But the first you got me thinking about is compartmentalization. Or we could call it dual consciousness, right? There's a number of different different ways. I really like Rogers. Deep down in my being I'm probably resilient. And I know that's not sexy, right? Like, folks are going to come up with a post positivistic feminist narrative, something approached, it's going to sound a lot better. But deep down in my heart, I think we've got the answers to our problems, and we need those supports. Right? And, and being authentic is the key to get there. That's hard. When you're a counselor, educator, and when you're in higher ed and when you engage in leadership, the wanting to be your whole in authentic self in all spaces isn't always possible. Hell, I don't think it's possible than a number of other careers either. Right? And, and I hear from my students, I hear from other folks that I mentor, like they want to be that old self and all in all spots. And sometimes you just can't, you just can't. And as soon as I realize, like, Okay, this is what I'm going to have to be here. Fine, this is who I can be in these other spaces. Maybe we should have done the video because I'm gonna show you around my office. Right? This is my office at home. Yes, I may not always be able to be the full me in the office, but at home and in some space. He says in my office, I tried to surround myself with things that validate me culturally that speak to me. You know, we talked about servant leadership, I got such to have this back here. To me, that's an example of a servant leader. Right? And that gets me to the second point, which is the why. If you have a clearer why you can deal with whatever else is going on. In my why simple. My why is simple. My why is the liberation of marginalized communities. Okay, no, it's not simple to do, right? Like, that's a big thing. I'll probably never accomplish that myself in my lifetime. But what I'm searching to do, what I want to do professionally, is that one thing. And so the question then becomes with all involvements, how am I making progress towards that? Why is what I'm doing is what I'm getting involved with is who I'm getting involved with, detracting from that way. If it is, then I don't need to be doing it. And I'm sure we'll talk about saying no, at some point, right. That's not on the curriculum for the mentees. But there's, there's things that will distract you, there's organizations that will watch you for what you represent, right? They want to see you but they don't want to see you swagger. They want you rep to which are what you represent, but they don't want to hear what you have to say. So you've got to make those choices sometimes with that y component of it. And then it's about constantly validating that way, like, okay, if I'm not getting it here, this is my means to an end, I have to do these things. This is not appreciating me and my authenticity, then I gotta find another space where that can come where I can be that part of me. Right? And it sucks. It sucks to carpe compartmentalize. It sucks to have to have that dual consciousness. But I'm gonna use what I can over here to make it over there. And so here's the third point. The third point, I promised you three, and I remembered it. You don't have to love leadership. You don't have to love working in higher ed. You don't. Those can be means to an end. You know, I think I don't know if I've shared this story before. But I remember hearing a candidate for a dealership say, you know, why doesn't Higher Ed Love me? The way I love higher ed. And that's stuck with me. Because I don't think I love higher ed. And I said no, I want to be a kept man. We can have a transactional relationship me in higher ed. I'll make my university look good. I'll write grants, I'll write papers. But because it allows me to do the things I really enjoy working with those high school students, right, mentoring open come in faculty, folks. Right? It's okay to be transactional every once in a while. Right? Ideally, ideally, you find yourself in a space where you're fully validated and you feel fully bought into a vision. But sometimes there's got to be a means to the end. And sometimes you accept certain roles, you accept certain responsibilities, because it's going to advance your why. But it's kind of stuck while you're doing it.

I can offer

like I'm a total downer, right? Like who's gonna come in like asked me for help. I'm not that sunshine, Tony Robbins, you can have it all like no, I'm like, Nah, so it's gonna suck sometimes.

But I appreciate the honesty in your response. Really, I mean, I think those are the things that you know, as a as up and coming. Professional scholars, future leaders, are the things that actually really stand out to me in terms of things that that can really be important for us to hear to as we begin to move into aspects of leadership. That kind of has me thinking and you've said this a couple of times, I've been thinking a lot about the role of actually mentors and thinking about I'm just curious about how you even think about mentors. And and you both being a mentee at one point in time and now you being a mentor as well, in thinking about how you kind of approach that those aspects as it relates to fostering leadership and others. I know earlier you talked about, you know, when, when an elder kind of says something you kind of listen, and I think there's some people who do that and then there's some people like no, I'm gonna kind of question that and I'm not so sure and in are trying to navigate and balance that particularly If there can be issues where there might be concerns around a mentor or leaders, cultural awareness of myself and who I am and how, and how I'm struggling with those elements of authenticity. So I'm just curious for you, if you can speak a little bit about just your experience with mentors who mentored you, and then also you being a mentor yourself to others. And, and just curious about how you're navigating those aspects of promoting leadership and foster?

That's a great question, Derek. Because, yeah, I have seen that where, where mentors that kind of lead folks astray. And I don't even know if it's intentional or not, right. But in some cases, it was self serving in the way they've mentored books. I was lucky, as I mentioned, my doctoral advisor was was coordinately. He was very clear as to not only what higher education look like, but what leadership look like. I was also very lucky to be mentored by Sheryl homoclinic. So early on, I didn't have a lot of Latino Chicano mentors, I was mentored by African American and black Counselor Educators. And I thank them for being as honest and transparent as they were, in helping me understand you know, that there's going to be some game to leadership, and somebody may be your ally, to advance certain purposes. And so I think knowing what was coming was really helpful. It reminds me of the research of one of my favorite scholars, is a critical consciousness scholars named Matt Deemer. He looked at career development for for young folks of color. And one of the things he found was recognizing and realizations around oppression and career barriers, was actually a protective factor. Right? We got all these people talking about anti CRT right now, and how that's disempowering to marginalized communities. Now, not enough, if you tell me the roads out, five miles ahead, I can reroute. But if I show up, right, without any knowledge, without any critical consciousness, there's nothing I can do. I'm stuck. So that kind of leadership really mattered. Right? So that kind of honesty. I think what I took from that in, in helping prepare leaders and helping them think about their their kind of path is a couple of things like thinking about who they're surrounding themselves with. You know, hey, let's talk about yeah, let's get you involved in leadership, let's think of what are some good spots for you? Let's think of who's there. They can also support you in your growth, right? Let's talk about here are some of those pitfalls, these are some of the things you're going to face. And let me also be here to listen. If there was one thing I think I missed out was some of that listening component. I listened a lot, I don't think I got a lot of opportunity to express concerns. I think that developed more as I went along. And part I don't want that to be a reflection on the folks that mentored me. I think part of that was just me, right? Me and Me culturally, right, I should be listening. My job is not to speak, my job is to listen and learn. I probably should have vocalized things a little better. And express those concerns, I probably would have learned a lot more. So as a mentor, I try to make that space. It's not about let's talk about your leadership goals. And those things to start off with. It's let me get to know you. Who are you as a person? Right, let's get to that, why, let's get to what's pushing you there. I'm very relational. And so, you know, even in my research, the folks I work with, we have good strong relationships folks count on each other folks depend on each other. That's when I'm at my best. So I tried to create those conditions as well with folks that that I mentor. But I think there's something to be said about just that brutal honesty sometimes. I call it pessimistic optimism. If I prepare you for the worst, only better things can happen. So there's the optimistic end of it. Ain't nobody gonna want to talk to me when this is done right? They like this through top down and

the word that keeps coming up for me is just like how real this conversation is. And your your pessimistic optimism just feels like this realism it's a it's a confronting, you know, like no pretense we're not going to make like rose colored glasses. This situation which I think when you when you hear a lot of like the leadership and advocacy, stuff that can be out there that comes from our profession. It's very ask Tony Robbins, what did you say earlier? You know, this is It's like an aspirational talk. But I just, I can't stop thinking about you. You're saying, you know, if you if you tell me, you know, five miles ahead, there's, I can detour around it, right, like this sense of, you know, if we're pollyannish, about this stuff that people are going to go into these spaces expecting, expecting to have their whole selves acknowledged, expecting to be able to operate and advocate within the bureaucracy and not being prepared for the constant roadblocks that come with just being in higher education, full stop, but also being in higher education with minoritized identities, right, when you may be the only person of that identity background in the room, trying to advocate for something that everyone else in that space has never even thought of has doesn't even have the creative imagination to envision a path out of whatever that issue is. So I, I love the real, the real talk.

I appreciate that. But I think that's what I searched for, right? And I look for other people that are real. Can we be real with each other, we may not always agree with each other, we may not necessarily like each other, but we're going to be real with each other. And if we can be real with each other, we can work together. And I think you're right, like particularly leadership. Folks, I think folks wanting to do what's best for an organization, they want to do what's best for people. But sometimes we just get caught into these traps. Right? Again, like systems were made to perpetuate themselves. And the systems that exist within leadership organizations aren't always made to be inclusive spaces. And so even if folks want to be inclusive, they fall into the traps of what those systems are made out of. Heck, let's talk about Robert's Rules of Order, right? Like that can be so marginalizing, if you don't know how to play that game, you can be totally silent. But that's the reason I learned it. I learned it because if I know how to play the game, I can swing the game in my direction. So this is where that nerdiness comes in handy. It's the reason I learned ethics. I learn ethics, because then I can be an advocate for my clients. But it might also be a generational thing, right? Because coming from that generational perspective, I'm kind of used to fighting and struggling. That just resonates with me. So yeah, if you've got a different worldview, if you're expecting this to be fulfilling and like, this is gonna be great. And sunshine and roses. Yeah. When you hit those bummer states, that hurts, it's gonna hurt a lot more than being like, yeah, I expected it to be this way. But hopefully we can get to the sunshine and roses.

You know, I have a maybe a selfish question. Selfish in the fact that there's a lot of self interest in this. And you'll know why in just a moment. So I I'm I'm also curious, like is was can you think of a time, you know, just throughout throughout your development into where you are now that you said yes to something and regret saying yes to and what do you like, how do you wish you had navigated that like that commitment, that service that whatever that was like, we can keep it professional? Because I know, we all said yes to something personally, rather than have regrets on that. But within the leadership landscape, like, what was there a yes, that came in New York, just like this is not it?

It was a second term. I'll say that's treasurer of CSD. And it's not necessarily because of CSJ wasn't what was going on with CSJ. It was what was going on with me. I believe at that point, that terms were two years. So I'd served on the board for two years. And this meant doing another two years. I should have known enough about myself to realize I was burned out. It took a lot of energy. And here's the end, I had agreed to help be the conference coordinator for AMC when that second term started. So it was carrying, you know, two kind of big responsibilities and two that required a good deal of time. So it was less about what was going on in the organization's then like me realizing oh, no, Carlos, that's too much. One, you're doing too much and two year kind of burnout. With the treasurer stuff. It's a lot of staying on top of finances, cutting checks, making sure folks are being reimbursed and the procedures are being followed. It requires a lot of attention to detail. And you know, having done that for two years, by the time I got to hear for all I was so good. And I was so over it. I was like this should be a three year appointment because I think I got good at it by my third year. But four is too much. That's, that's when I can speak about publicly that I think. Yeah. And again, it wasn't what was going on in CSJ. It's got nothing to do with CSD. It's got everything to do with me. And the fact that I've taken on too much, and I was burned out.

Your responses is incredibly validating for me, I think I said, I asked you that question with some self interests, because I that's a that's a struggle that folks have, especially early careers, saying yes to everything, because you're on a path to promotion as fast as possible, saying yes. And I think you just illustrated the importance of kind of know thyself, right, like the, in the midst of all the chaos in the midst of all of the growth and the impostor syndrome and saying yes to everything, and like getting your sea legs teaching and all of that, like we can get so caught up and lose track of that. Why? Right, lose track of our capacities to support that way. And I just thank you for speaking to that.

And I think it's kind of bread and a couple of different things, you come out of a dark program, and I don't know about your jock studies, like I'd be interested in hearing that. But as a dark student, I was meant to feel like you had to jump on everything. So wants to read a paper, you want to be third author? Yes, I need any publications. We got such and such an event or presentation going on? Can you help out with this? Carlos? Yes, I'll be there. But then also will serve as pieces right, and like wanting to give back again, like there's that cultural aspect. If somebody asks you, it's because they need you to do something, you should jump in there. But yeah, realizing there's a limit to that. And at some point, later on, we can talk about balance. And for too many of us, it becomes a catching up, right, we let things get really unwound. And then we try to pull the spool back together again, that's really hard to do. You're much better off, trying to stay at that balance point at all time. And part of that thinking about, I got to say no to some stuff. Because if I say yes, right, things start tipping. So at some point for everything you say yes to, something's gotta get, you got to give something up. That's a conversation for another time, I got a whole spiel on that one.

So so at this point, I'm really just sitting with your, your endurance as a as a leader, and I know you very much frame it in the service kind of capacity. I'm really curious about now for you, you know, having been in leadership positions for as long as you have and endured through that and enjoyed it in so many ways. And, and throughout this conversation, I mean, what struck me is just the passion that you have, just overall for for just leadership and just the work that you're doing. I'm really curious about kind of where do you your professional passions lie today? And where do you kind of see some of your aspirations for leadership kind of going in the future or in the near future?

I'm gonna take you back to my wife, Derek, I want the liberation of marginalized communities. And so the clearer I get with that, the clearer I think about what am I going to be involved with, right? And also the realization that every once in a while, I'm gonna need to take a step back. When I got done with my stint on the Governing Council, I was like, right, I need at least a year, I need at least a year to step back, no major committee involvements. So I can just focus, right. And then from that, it's thinking about, Well, where are those involvements going to be? And so I know, I may be lucky, based off of my university, but I get to be selective with what kind of service I do. And so I've picked service where I think I can have an impact. I don't want to sit on the curriculum committee. I don't want to sit on, you know, a nominations board for an association, because I don't feel like I'm going to have an impact. But I'll sit on the committee for governance for ACA, because, yeah, that it's absolutely I think the impact marginalized communities will get access to run for certain offices. How will we run our governing council? That absolutely makes sense? So I'll jump on to that. But it's that constantly asking like, Okay, does this make sense? And when I make a mistake, and say yes to something that's not feeling as fulfilling It's alright, step back. Is it something in the way I'm approaching it? Or is it time for me to walk away from this? And there's been a couple of times where I've had to do that. I don't try to be a jerk about it. I tried to be nice about it. I'm not like this is not fulfilling me. Forget y'all. I'm out here. I almost got an F bomb in there for you, Megan, that time I held back though. We talked about that before we started recording that I was going to work within at some point in time, but I'm gonna try to keep it professional. But yeah, so every once in a while, you got to think about it and be like, and reassess. And just be honest, right? Like, if this is sucking, and you know, it's sucking. Well, why is it sucking? Is it my attitude? Or is it that this is just not a space that that's helping to advance my life?

Wonderful. Well, carless, Carlos, thank you so much. This was just a fascinating discussion. I feel like I've learned so much from this interview. And in this interaction, I know, Megan feels the same in the same regard. So we just want to thank you for taking time out to to participate in this interview for us. Thank you so much.

No, no, thank you for having me. It's my pleasure to be here. And I hope you got something a little useful out of this. Absolutely.

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