Ep 5: The Lonely PhD Epidemic: Experiencing the symptoms of isolation and exploring the cure through practices of inclusion
2:02PM May 8, +0000
Speakers:
Keywords:
phd
learner
people
part
participants
programme
phds
research
academic institution
researcher
university
students
support
world
supervisor
progress
part timers
institution
phd candidate
connect
Hello,
and welcome to a dash of salt. I'm Dr. Shelly Yan and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. Salt is an acronym for society and learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in Shall we?
Welcome to a dash of salt. Today I'm joined by Mabel Reagan. Dave is a chartered occupational psychologist with over 20 years of experience working in higher education in the UK and Ireland. She's worked as a careers advisor, primarily with students with disability in the Dublin City University. Mavis also worked as a student learning development advisor in Trinity College Dublin over the last decade helping undergraduate and post graduates to maximise their academic potential and skill. She's currently on a career break and has just completed her PhD viba in the School of Education in Trinity College. Mavis research is an exploration of the experiences of individuals who have completed a PhD on a part time basis in different universities in Ireland. She's interested in access to educational opportunities and inclusion, particularly for learners who have been marginalised or overlooked in research policy and practice. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast today to speak with you about the challenges the part time PhD researchers face specifically because they are part time students.
Thanks very much, Shelli. It's great to be here.
So firstly made congratulations on successfully defending your PhD research well done to you, it must be satisfying to know that the hardest part of the work is now behind you. I'm really looking forward to talking to you about your research in your area of interest. Well, you tell us a little bit more about yourself and about your programme of research.
Okay, surely, I suppose, golly, I don't know where to start, I suppose. Yeah, my background is in psychology and occupational psychology. And then I've had a very kind of diverse career after that. And I have worked with people who were ex prisoners on their families as well about access to education and training. And I've worked with students with disabilities as a careers advisor in DCU, as you mentioned, and then more recently as a student learning advisor. And what I noticed in student learning advisory role, the role in Trinity was that we were seeing more students at a post grad level, and we were seeing more PhD students. And then we were getting more requests for doing outreach. So going into an institution connected with the university and going off campus to deliver training on academic skills, motivation, writing, and off site. And then we started to develop more requests for online for the students who are not available nine to five at all. And I became very aware of this idea of people's lives being very busy. And that may be the assumption that the learner is physically on campus, and able to access, support and programmes and communities within the university might not be a reality for for everybody. And I also was one of the volunteers on the Trinity access programme. I was one of their interviewers for the mature students, I loved doing that hear people's stories when they return to education, or had maybe not completed education or coming back as mature learners. But what I noticed is that the addresses of people 10 years ago, everybody was based around the Dublin area. More recently, now it's people coming from dromeda people coming from Colorado, people commuting. And this has been kind of captured in the UK where there's research now on the commuter learner. And the idea of not physically being able to access campus during nine to five and how it affects your learning. So I thought overseeing a lot of doctoral candidates, and I'm hearing a lot of it was full time PhD students that we saw and hearing a lot of stories about people, balancing work, having babies having grown up kids, managing finances, all this busy, busy world and I just thought we're not seeing part time PhD students No, why not? Because I also saw that there's a trend of higher level of enrollments and part time PhD students in Ireland and worldwide, actually, we have now 72% increase in part time PhD. enrollments in Ireland over the last decade, that's still not a huge figure, it's from 920 to 1600 25. You know, from 2008 to 2018, it's a very growing area. So the idea of a learner with a lot going on, and maybe limited access to the academic institution really interested me. And also most of our PhD part, timers are within the university sector. So that's growing now with technological universities, and within an arts, humanities and social science field. So that was what interested me when I started this research as a part time PhD myself in 2016.
Tell us a little bit more about the concept of,
of
invisible learner I know that's something that we've kind of talked about, in the past together what an invisible learner is. And if you can tell us what what that encompasses and maybe give us some examples.
Okay, the invisible learner and it can be quite complicated to separate these little bits. There's different types of doctoral programmes, and say that the typical doctoral programme recognised in European policy and practice is the full time PhD candidate, preferably located within the academic institution, and a community of researchers, preferably funded. And there's kind of again, an idea that this is a young researcher, this is the framework that we have as a traditional learner. And so that's your visible learner, and that policy and practices designed around helping a PhD researcher on a full time basis to progress through the programme over three to four years. Now, there's also programmes for part time candidates, doctoral education programmes that are not the PhD, they're the doctors and education, and the professional doctorates. Now, these tend to be designed more for people who are part time, who are working, who are more mature, and will study after a day's work on meet once a week. And these m students tend to be within a cohort. So they're recruited on a part time basis over four years. And they start together, they'll have a very structured piece, maybe which is around assignments. And then we'll have the thesis at the end, I actually interviewed a few people who've done a part time and doctorate or doctorate in education. And the challenges are the same. If you're doing a, you know, a thesis, if you're working, you know, whether you're full time, part time, these things will be challenging no matter what your circumstances are. But if you're in a programme designed, on the basis that you're part time, and you're mature, and you're with a group of others, there's a community within that, if you're a full time PhD researcher, there's an assumption that you can access College and the campus environment between nine to five. And there are two assumptions. There's a middle invisible learner that I spoke about, which is the part time PhD candidate. So instead of doing the research over four years, the part time PhD candidate will tend to study for six years, five to six years, there's no framework for recognising this and the way that the programme is delivered. So it does a very rough kind of shape around the PhD. Because obviously, each university will have its own strengths, its own culture, its own way of supporting learners, and its own kind of philosophies, really, but in general, just kind of three stages. So a student will come in starting a PhD, and they'll have an orientation or coursework within first year, then they will have a mid stage transfer confirmation, which is kind of like your your NCT or your driving test to see has your Have you got legs under your research, has it gotten mileage to go the road? And then the end stage is your vida and your thesis submission, which is can you produce research, as an original researcher, can you make contribution to knowledge that wasn't there before and that's the shape of the PhD. And that shape of it, which has been very unchallenged is based on a three to four year candidature. So if you're doing this over five to six years, you're a part time so you're not really there. Because you probably have other commitments, and you're working and you're caring. And your main job is probably the one that pays your mortgage or your your bills, your rent. And this is a second thing that you're doing to kind of progress with your career or personally or educationally you're invisible. It's not designed with you in mind. And actually, there's researchers called a Newman and Rodwell. They're Australian researchers and they have talked about the invisibility of the part time PhD learner, in research in policy and practice. We know nothing really about a part time PhD researcher except that they're not full time. There's nothing in policy about recognising part timers in the structure of a programme it is more well it's a concession at a departmental level if you have to be part time, fair enough, or if you're full time and you have to go part time because your personal life has become challenging, fair enough. But it's not designed with this in mind or thought of in any way in terms of the positives, possibly with being a part time research. Or the possibility, possibility that, you know, maybe somebody who's a part timer brings other skills with them. So this is why I wanted to explore this because it's such an unknown. You know,
you were saying that that part time PhDs don't have the ability to access funding. Is that is that how is that? So did I hear that right?
That's definitely been something historically, in research that they part time PhD candidates tend to be self funding. That's what research would suggest. And in general, as I said, the PhD is designed more with the full time researcher in mind. And that is something that is common in practice across Europe. And a common understanding when you read about the PhD PhD guidelines, it's talking about this full time, researcher funding tends to be more targeted towards your park, or your full time researcher, I think it might be opening up slightly more. But the, as I said, the invisibility of this type of learner are their voice in any kind of a way to inform policy and practice. It's a bit of a grey area, my own participants, the 18 people who finished a PhD. And I did a preliminary study to see who would I look at, like, what stage of the PhD when I look at what department, how would I even look at a part time PhD candidate, what came out of that, I looked at full and part time candidates in from a single University and those who had finished or finishing their PhD, had a better sense retrospectively, of what have worked at each stage to help them to progress, then people like me who were kind of in the middle, and didn't really have a benchmark of what we were supposed to do next, or what would work next. And we only, I'd only gone as far as each stage myself. So retrospectively, I looked at people who had finished a PhD part time, and are these 18, they were from five different universities, a lot of them were funded by their employer. So this was interesting. So if you work in a higher education sector or within education, some people worked for employers that were very supportive, and fun to them. So that's a piece that maybe part time researchers are funded, some of them but this again, we need to unearth a little bit more beyond my study to see about where the funding is coming from, but a lot actually would find themselves especially if you worked in a sector where the PhD wasn't very valued or recognised.
What are some of the accesses that full time PhDs enjoy that part time PhDs struggled to find or just don't have access to what are some that you saw and heard from, from your research experience?
I think the biggest barrier and looking at both the, you know, full timers and part timers for my preliminary study, and then from my main study, is the experiences were challenging no matter what way you're doing a PhD, the experiences are very challenging. I don't know. And again, in terms of access, I don't know if this is an Irish thing. I have lived in the UK as well. But as a culture, we're a nation of talkers. And we really like that face to face contact. So I'd say the difference for full timers was the informal connections within the academic institution, just by the nature of being there, nine to five. And if you were a talker, and you were confident, or you were even positioned within a room with other PhD candidates, and you were in your department, you could knock on doors. And that's what a lot of people said to me Who were the full timers? Oh, sure. Listen, if I need to find something out, I just knock on the door. The administrators are great, they're really nice, or my supervisors down the hall or I always bounce ideas off somebody who's in the same office. And he's also done a PhD. So there's that informal kind of community, the coffee culture again, I don't know if that's a very Irish thing. But you know, if you're in a space where you can have a coffee, and with other people, and are the acts of seminars and these networking opportunities, they're the bread and butter, I think for a lot of the full time PhD candidates that the part timers couldn't access by the nature of tending not to be their nine to five there was an intentionality about the way the part time learner engaged with the academic institution, but often outside of ours. One of my participants, actually she, she did a lovely story. She talked about the library, that the library was a brilliant as a point of access for a part time PhD candidate and for anybody really, because it's a physical space, but it's also a virtual space that you can connect to 24. Seven out of hours and you can access resources. She was mean you can hear about training coming up. But she said I looked at a lot of people said this. And both in both my preliminary my main study, I love the library. The staff are wonderful, they're so supportive, especially if you're a part time PhD counsellor, and you're going in on a wet weekend or you're like a vampire going in there at night or on a Sunday. That physical connection was often the only point of contact that some of my partners had, or maybe only their supervisors, so they missed tires on a lot of those experience. Now, equally, I had international students and maybe even people who said that they were quite shy, and wouldn't be being proactive in seeking out information or found it very easy, excuse me, maybe not knowing the culture of the academic institution. So the wider issue than being part time, you can be physically on campus. But if you haven't got the competence to knock on doors, if you don't know the people that might be able to help you. Like what I noticed is to successfully go through the Ph. D process and to have a positive experience, and to be connected with others. We have this culture very much in Ireland, about the face to face contact, it's the way that we, we seem to relate to each other. And we're very comfortable about that informality. So if you are a full time PhD candidate, or you're in campus, a lot of new access to these seminars, the physical spaces, we can have a coffee a desk, and you know where you can chat to people, it makes a difference when you can be a part time student and have a desk and in fact, a lot of the universities think would facilitate that. But if you don't have that in, or you don't push yourself forward, you can end up being very isolated. You couldn't be invisible on campus. I actually had one participant in the early in my preliminary study, who was an international student, she was she was from South America. She was a researcher within her own and university back home, she had a family she was married. You think about that, like you're in Ireland in a bed session from condra or something and your family are way way across in another timezone. And think this is something you can relate to Shelley. And you know that your contact with them as I'm dying for that would mean the Skype phone call at nine o'clock in the evening, I'm dying for my husband to come over, we're going to go to Paris, and we're going to go crazy and, and what have you, but your world is actually quite isolated. If you can't find an N in the physical space, you can get very lost. And this particular participant, she actually used to contact her friends, who were the researchers in the university where she worked in, in her own home country to find out, can anybody tell me about how I access this resource? Does anybody know what a lit review would involve? Because you didn't have the confidence to put up your hand in any of the training sessions she went to to access the resources that were physically there. And she said her real
Angel was a full time PhD, Kansas who was really, really positive and they were all together in the same space. It was like a kind of a work space where they felt it was like a job. They're all there a nine to five. But this other full time Kansas, she was Irish, and really kind of full of personality, we say to her right, so we're doing a breakfast, they're doing a kind of cheap breakfast over there in the canteen, we're all going to go over 11 o'clock every Friday. And that became a thing. And that became space for those outsiders who you know, didn't necessarily have the social in order to connect or didn't have the and even to kind of navigate the website or talk to somebody about Oh, how do I find out about funding or this stuff, or you talk to this person or that person or the other? They didn't have that in. So you need to either physically be there, you need the personality, you need a catalyst, you know, usually another full time researcher to help you. So the part timers didn't have that. Most part timers were not there nine to five. And when you go on campus at six o'clock in the evening, it's a hugely different experience. And you can't sidle up to somebody and say, Oh, that was really interesting talk, wasn't it? Or are you going to that thing at the library or you know, or hear the counselling services amazing. So you miss a lot. And I think that intentionality about the way the part timer engages with the academic institution for short, focused visits, often just for the supervisor, our service needs to be made more explicit. And we need more online and face to face support to connect that person in
what what have you seen as the effects that COVID has had on maybe those who were mid research and part time PhDs, and the barriers that they had experienced? You know, what made me think about this was that that idea of the outsider that you were talking about in the isolated sense of isolation, and obviously, that over this past year, year and a half now, you know, even full time PhDs have now kind of lived that outsider experience in that idea of being isolated. So have you seen some flip flop or, you know, tell us a little bit about sort of what you may have seen some of the differences, or some of the changes that have have happened?
Yes, it's actually funny, just to give the kind of an anecdote that sort of relates to this. I have a friend who's a neighbour who's in college with me and she has em. She's got quite a serious medical condition that she says pre COVID she was considered very kind of an unusual because you say, Oh, sorry, is retired in the house with the calf or, you know, and I'm not able to mix because of x, y and Zed so she had to isolate herself and from others because of her medical condition she said, COVID equalise just, she suddenly it was a level playing field. Well, I would say the same about the doing a PhD, or even educating or working or being a learner, from your primary school infant or your infant teacher, or your remote worker or your PhD candidate. COVID was a level playing field. We all suddenly were in this world where we could not physically connect with each other. And God, do we miss it. Now technology has really kind of stepped up. But I think what it's also highlighted is the gaps in what technology and human contact where there's a gap between the two. And I think that's where we really need to flip the way we look at education and learning and connecting. And I have a very good friend who's a full time PhD candidate, who's now gone home to her own country. And so she's physically at removed from campus, and she no longer has our access to our network and her supports. She's active on a whatsapp group. But again, how is she going to progress with her PhD? What? What can be the footholds that she can use to climb up? In the absence of that physical contact? What about the web resources? And what about even that kind of dynamic and formal communication? She regularly meeting with her supervisor online? And is she keeping herself connected? Do we notice that people drop off? And I think that that's why, and there's this real danger about, you know, the lack of physical contact is the invisibility of a learner who may I just slip away? And it's not notice? So again, I think, yeah, COVID has been a level playing field. And it actually really fed into what my research was trying to do. When I started looking at the part time PhD candidate, not a popular subject, and to be quite honest with you, it's it's still, you know, very, very new there's, there's pockets of support, but it's not something that's that's hugely recognised. But when I was thinking, how do you look at the experience of a learner who's not physically and socially, in the campus campus environment, so literally, it's close your eyes, put your hands over your eyes, and now describe how that interaction happens, and what's missing from it. And whereas technology filling the void? Well, lo and behold, here we are now in this COVID world where these experiences are everybody's experience. And however difficult this pandemic is, there's a huge opportunity within that, for us all to reflect after them. How did I connect him? How did I engage with the institution? How the institution engage with me? How were these different ways of communicating or providing information or helping me to belong? Or progress? That has to be a two way conversation? Yeah, both between the learners out in their world at home, on their computers on the academic institutions, so we can design education systems and support. Thinking about somebody who's stuck at home in Sweden, or stuck at home in Venezuela or whatever or in Carlo or in Milltown, malbay or wherever, even south of Dublin are not able to go into Trinity, whatever, we have to just look at inclusion and in a way beyond and as well as somebody being mature international full time part. Now we have to look at what else was going on in people's lives. Where are they situations in relation to their academic environment, even our timezone and to connect those pieces to to help the learner and when I was working student learning development, I remember meeting and a PhD student, he was brilliant, and he was exhausted every time you meet him, he was asked, exhausted, didn't socialise didn't mix at all, was really demoralised and deflated. Even though he's academically doing very well, because his network of support was his girlfriend, who was across the other side of the world, and in a different country in a different continent. And he used to connect with her every evening. And it would be midnight, midnight Irish time. So when he came in, he was missing his morning kind of connections with others, he was disengaged with campus, and he was just disconnected. So connection has to be looked at, beyond face to face to the other ways that we hold people.
Yeah, and you know, in that hole, I'm wondering if that that this whole thing with COVID is what is going to make universities look at the balance between their their full time PhDs and they're part time PhDs and, and look at it in more of an equitable manner. You know, that both, you know, that they won't be invisible will now no longer be invisible, that all will be visible and that you know, all because no matter whether it's part time PhD or full time PhD, everybody's working towards a significant contribution in the field of knowledge and whatever it is that that you're studying and you're researching, and so it means that the the part time PhD He is no less important than the full time PhD. And so, you know, maybe universities out of this coming out the other side. That along with, you know, the publication, and the dissemination of your own research will help to, you know, spur the, the universities on to, to make those realisations and to start making some changes to make it more equitable. One of the things that you had said a little, little while back, but I did want to bring it up again, was that you were talking about the significance of the work environment and the work role, and that the PhDs who are working full time and doing PhDs part time, that environment, what do you think the significance is of work and that type of environment on influencing that PhD progression to completion? And you know, what is really actually meant by that?
Well, I think for my participants, in my main study, I think all all all of the individuals contributing to study is the PhD is as an individual as a fingerprint, everybody's study was as unique as a fingerprint in terms of their journey, whether it was in the balance of being single being partnered up having older children, younger children, no children carrying responsibilities. It's very individual. But within that, from my part time PhD and completed completed learners, the other factors were the supervisor. So if you had a very experienced supervisor, this could be your main plug into navigation, the PhD within the institution, a supervisor who would say, Oh, yeah, I tell you, this is how you get contact with this person. This how you find out about where these resources are training are. So supervisor, who was very well established and really knew the university, well, it was a real plus, I think that would be the same for anybody doing doctoral studies, an inexperienced student or an inexperienced student and supervisor with a challenging combination. So if you had somebody who was a part time PhD candidate, returning to education after 20, or 30 years, had a supervisor who was also new, hadn't progressed people to completion, and was navigating the process, the two together were kind of in the dark. So again, I think there's something there about the institution supporting not just the learners, but their own staff in terms of training and development, and helping those new supervisors. And, you know, to to develop within the role. So the supervisor was a key factor. The institution and its systems and its processes, again, was a real factor. And I bring this back to the point you asked me about work. And so again, that can be challenging. If it's not explicit, where do I go to to get my email? Where do I go to to register? Or, you know, how do I progress? How do I find out about the guidelines, those things are challenging if you're working full time. So one of my participants, she worked in a university and sector in one part of the country and was doing her PhD 200 kilometres away. So she had a problem with her it, she had something wrong with her email, her access, she couldn't get access, because she was working full time. And she was the sole person responsible for a particular department, she couldn't just open leave and come in, she had to take days leave. Now her management were highly supportive ever, and it was culture where the PhD was valued. And she literally had to physically go down after failing to resolve her problem online or virtually, and be passed from pillar to post you to go down to the university, grab a full time PhD candidate who worked the university was also on a course get them to bring her over to the the it place, and say lads are not leaving this authority today. So that's where work and just the nature of working full time, and maybe your location of your job and the nature of your role in relation to your PhD, while you're physically doing it is an issue. If you're doing a part time PhD in an environment where it's valued, say if you worked in a higher education institution. For some of my participants, this was great because they'd seen a real life problem. And they have access maybe to participants, and they could feed their research into their work. So the two dovetail together, and this was quite a really, really good competition combination. So this is where work, and PhD and work in research really complemented each other. And equally, they had great experiences. Some of my participants have that a network of people to talk to somebody like somebody else had gone through the research process. Maybe other colleagues who've done a doctorate in education, or a PhD or another form of level 10, quote, qualifications. So there was a world where you could moan about it, or you know, you could share experiences or learn how to write and publish. So your community of researchers if you couldn't get on the act, demmick institution you compensate through your work environment. Now alternatively i'd one other participant, what are the few, but I mentioned what I'm checking, because I just thought you were so amazing that you know the story of anybody doing level 10 doctoral qualification is about resilience. And that's what a lot of the quotes are about, you damn well have to be resilient to get through it. And that's, that's it. And but this particular participant, she worked in a sector where the PhD wasn't valued. And nobody else had done one. She was full time in a job, but there was no time off no support for us. And she didn't know anybody personally, who had a PhD, she had very little access to the academic institution tended to go there after hours, and really had no foothold in terms of progressing. So that's where her work environment. And her distance physically and socially, was very wide from the academic institution that she linked into doctoral forums. And this is something that's been quite unexplored I blogs and doctoral forums, and a lot of my participants said this, at you know, 10 o'clock in the evening, when you're there in front of the computer, and you need to tap into, you know, advice or motivation of some kind, the Ph. D forums, really helped were hurtful holes for the dynamic interaction, the progression, and she said, I depended on the kindness of others of strangers. It was me and other academics and students in the UK, and Australia, and all around the world. And they were my community. And I gave back when I finished my PhD, and I gave back to them. So this is a really untapped world of dynamic interaction, I had another group of part time PhD candidates, and they set up their own self generation peer network, that they grabbed each other on day one, when, you know, the supervisor or the staff member said, right, Who here is part time and full time they grabbed on to each other, and they happened to be a good mix. So they kept in touch throughout their PhD at their own network, even though they all worked on separate institutions. And they literally said she wanted, one of them said to me, I was we were on the email every 20 minutes, when we were coming up to submission, we were all on the email to each other we never met, we never needed to. And others had more face to face kind of networks that they built up. And that was their community. So there's all of these different rich pieces are but but work as a facilitator, in terms of the type of work you do, and work as a barrier was a big issue. And I think it really highlights maybe that institutions need to be aware where a learner is coming from before they start a PhD. And that some, I'd say even like myself now would need maybe a bit more orientation, and help to bridge that gap from the world practitioner world I've come from, or working as a researcher donkey's years ago to the gap, you know, that needs to be filled to get to know to help me to become a researcher. Now, I was lucky as a lot of my colleagues in the student counselling, service, student development. Within college, I was lucky, I knew a lot of people, as well as the academic staff in my department who were really able to help, but many don't. And I think it needs to be addressed.
One of the things that I am curious about is completion rates. Specifically, is there evidence of additional time that's needed? Or those who just couldn't complete the PhD journey? You know, what, what what did you see in your research?
Well, that was something that I hoped would kind of frame my research about completion rates, because, of course, there's a lot of studies on non completion or length of time to completion. And across the board, I think for full and part time PhD learners, but again, the part timer is tends to be known, as, you know, having the five to six year or longer kind of route. There's no definition of a part time PhD candidate, there's no unified definition of part time, which is really difficult. So it can include somebody who was full time, and then went to part time, as well as somebody who was part time throughout. So actually am there's a new, you know, the Irish Survey of Student Engagement, there's a survey on student engagement, they've recently developed a post grad researcher survey of engagement, and that was in 2019. And that's one of the things they highlighted, there isn't a single term to define a part time PhD learner, some it's by type of enrollment, some it's by full time equivalency, someone's by the type of module they do or by, you know, funding status or so there's no unified term. So therefore, capturing completion statistics, there's no way to really be sure how the learner is defined within completion, statistics, or if at all, so it's kind of a grey area and my own participants, the 18, who completed a part time PhD, some of them were early completers. And again, there's this issue supposing for those who worked in higher education, managing the full time job and doing the part time PhD But during the part time PhD with the purpose of maybe getting a full time role, and or going for a promotion or changing a job, it was, it was really important to get that PhD over the line quickly. Another thing that people mentioned, I thought this was really good. One of my participants finished her PhD in five years. And she said, I really needed to do it, because the area I'm talking about was new when I started. But by the time I was kind of five years into it, suddenly a lot of other people were talking about this, I needed to get mine over the line first. So I think there's that issue about, you know, the, and balancing in the context of other parts of your life, which I think, again, will relate, anybody who's doing doctoral studies can relate to their full time, part time doctoral education, it's, you know, our lives are messy, no matter what stage of life we're at. But it's that thing of if you, you know, if you're in an area that's new, and your PhD is relevant, and you need to get it out there, the five to six years for some can be, can actually be a barrier, you know, particularly those who are embedded in an environment where they're gathering their data, they have participants who can contribute to this. So there's that kind of, you know, tension, I suppose, and brothers, it was looked and taken a couple of years out, I have family or I have elderly parents, or I've changed job, or I have a lot going on. So there really, there was no model length of time for doing a PhD, or finishing, or complete. with mine all did, and I found that very encouraging. I was sitting at my laptop, here's the stories of people who did it. So motivation,
I'd like to discuss with you the concept of wellness and well being. And we know that that's a really hot topic across really all ages and stages of living and learning at this point. But what are some of the issues with wellness that part time on PhDs face? And have you seen differences in their experiences? You know, throughout your research,
I think the part time PhD learners because they have been overlooked in research and policy and are coming in a different position in relation to the academic institution provide that flavour or are, you know, it kind of contribution to discussions but the idea of wellness, I think it's really across the board for anybody doing a PhD. And I think the problem across the board is the idea that once you reach a PhD stage, there's what I call, I think it's called impression management is that terrible fear of saying that you're not on top of things, that maybe other people are doing better than you that that constant feeling of imposter syndrome and failure. And I think that's across the board. Like it's such a leap, to do level 10 doctoral studies, it's such really, and, and I think the issue of isolation is really key, whether you're full time or part time, I think academic isolation for a part time PhD candidate is really key that if you're outside of the academic institution, and you don't have that access, and you don't have that sense of like, you don't have others around you in any way to guide your process and your progress, that academic isolation is very, very, very, you know, sort of very scary and very real. And equally, I think the pressures are family and pretending everything's going okay, The Secret World of the part time PhD, a lot of people do in apartment and PhD, there's an issue of legitimacy is what I am not going to tell anybody about this now, because I might not actually complete and they don't know when the job will carry on, nobody will be the wiser, there's definitely that piece there. You know, I definitely like don't ask me about
the in laws or anything,
I really don't want to discuss it. Because it's, you know, it's like a hidden part of life. But in so in terms of the part time PhDs, there's that nobody's gonna see whether it's going well or not. And you may not say it, and the person physically not being there, and maybe not linking into the services. I mean, one of my part time participants said, I'm a 40 year old man, I'm not sure I go to the counselling service. If I had a problem, I'd probably go elsewhere, which is a real shame because the counselling service is such a wonderful resource. And you know, it's absolutely used to dealing with all ages and levels of students and all backgrounds. So that's one piece from the part timers from the full timers. The wellness piece that I think is very hidden, again is if you're around other people in your community, and everybody seemed to be doing all right, you might keep it to yourself that you're not and I'm hearing a lot of stories are probably because of the research that I'm doing from full timers and part timers about the stories of you know what I was actually broke there for two months and I was really, really am struggling. And I wasn't coming to college because I really didn't want to get caught up into lunches and things like that right have to pay for stuff and I just disappeared and I struggling. And I think that wellness piece, my PhD deals with that interaction with the academic institution, both face to face and online at different stages of PhD, but agency and resilience, and what the learner themselves needs to do, to progress. And I think it's about a meeting of those two things, providing the resources and the information to help that learner no matter whether they're full time or part time to link in and giving them resources to progress and maybe be aware of what their red flag issues are, as in I'm disengaging from this PhD, and dodging meeting my supervisor and, and hiding myself and work, we can all find ways to procrastinate, or I'm on keeping hidden those bits of me that are struggling. And I'm sure I can skate along.
You don't want other people to think that you're not successful, or there's a lot of things that we mentally deal with a you talked about imposter syndrome, in that idea of feeling like I wasn't at the same level as so and so who was a year ahead of me, or I wasn't at the same level, you know, or this person, oh, my goodness, you know, they speak amazingly at a presentation and I'm all tongue tied, you know, all the time, or those that struggle or that idea of feeling like, I don't add up, or I don't level up to others, firstly, and secondly, heaven forbid, they should know that I that I am struggling, or that I have a need or that I have a five year old to my name until the end of the month, or whatever it may be, and not wanting others to know. And, and again, me having that network in the end being surrounded by that, but what somebody who was a part time PhD, I can imagine that those those issues, and those concerns are probably even, you know, tenfold even more for them. Because, you know, they don't have somebody to say no, no, it's alright, I've been there. There's been many times where you just want to throw the covers over your head and say, I'm not dealing with this, or I'm just gonna throw this away, and
I'm gonna quit,
I'm gonna, I'm done. I can't do this, you know, for all whatever the host of reasons it is. So there's definitely something to be said about the importance of promoting and providing supports for wellness and well being for PhDs. Again, whether part time or full time. It's so important, it's so important, because why do we all struggle in the darkness when we when we do know, we have others, you know, that can support us and encourage us and help us through that. One of the key aspects from reading and knowing a bit about your research that's come to the surface through your research was the role of personal agency resilience, you talked a little bit about that earlier and seeking help, again, either face to face or online, as influencing their progression and their completion in the participants. Your participants have really different stories about how they went on this journey. And to me, this is a really fascinating thing. So can you expand a little bit more on this for me?
Well, I suppose like, again, it's like the fingerprint, that people's ways of experiencing challenges and overcoming them or harnessing supports was very, very different. And like I said, that example of agency of the learner who really had no interaction with anybody, because of not being able to go into the university during the day, and then not working in an environment or personally knowing. So her agency was okay, I got to get through this somehow. And she plugged into the forum. So that was her example, for another learner, it was really I think this is very M. On top, she was very reflective. And she said that she, she roughly she kept a reflection diary of how her progress was going. And she talked about unconscious and competence. You don't know what you don't know. And I think that's huge in terms of an agency that if you're not keeping a kind of reflective diary of your progress on your process, you can kind of float along the dark without knowing that you're really off track. And so she said, I realised that I didn't know anything about she was using a quantitative method, I'm thinking Should I really didn't know anything about this method. And I didn't know anybody in my institution to ask, and I was working and nobody knew how I would access this. So in terms of personal agency, she went and found out a training provider who delivered this type of training, set up a petition petition online, got other people both full timers and part timers that she knew and it just send it around and get them to sign this form to get the trainer in and then organise the trainer to comments college that was funded by a department or by maybe some advocacy. Our student body for at Ph. D, and post grad students. And so that was what she did. You know, she got her, you know, the bodies on the ground to support to get this training in. And I think that's now become part and parcel, I'm not sure, but I think it might be part and parcel of the way the institution works. And no there it was just the personal story, I just loved her story. She was like, I'm sitting here, I have the cup of coffee, the laptop and the baby monitor. And if I'm lucky, I'm gonna get an hour worked on. So her personal agency was in terms of really shoehorning her time into these really concentrated periods of work because life was busy elsewhere. And another of my participants said that she used to get the train home. And that's when she'd do her work. And she said, I was so focused sometimes that I nearly missed my stop. So agency can be either seeking help from others reflecting on where things are falling short and made that you need to be more proactive, or drawing on your own personal skills, which a lot of us will have developed from work in terms of time management, project management to completing a task, and other market participants. I love this. She kind of treated her writing the PhD, like a game,
I think was called countdown, it used to be Quiz Show, or this one show the weakest link? And you answer a question you got in the bank in the bank, and you'd bank all the time as you went along. So she used to write 1000 words, and she said, a banking that in the bank in the bank. And then on a Sunday morning, her husband would let her off the hook and say, Listen, don't bother about coming over to my folks for dinner. And you stay here and do your work associate take your stuff out to the bank. And she would then work on doing a concentration period of writing. And so the very different ways that people have demonstrated resilience and reflected on what was going well, or not well, really shaped their experience. Some of them were just pure, tough. I mean, I used to hear people's stories. And when I you know, kind of over the last year during lockdown when it is quite isolation, I still remember one of my participants saying, Oh yeah, my car got broken into my computer got stolen, oh, yeah. And all my data was crashed. And then and just, you know, a series of catalogue of horrors. But she was so cool. And she got it in and she did it. And that's very motivating to hear. And I think we don't hear those stories of getting through. Just Finally, one of my participants, she, she went to a conference, a European conference, and she really noticed this group of PhD researchers in Europe really firing ahead, they were publishing and there was an explicit expectation that they would publish. And they were disseminating their research, they were very strong on methods, they would give each other mock drivers and all through the process to see how they were getting on. And she joined them. And even though she was physically located in Ireland, physically in a job, and then separately doing a PhD, that was her network that she engaged with remotely in terms of, you know, demonstrating agency to seek help remotely, but progress with the academic process. So there's huge different ways, but I think this really needs to be captured. Because it's lost on the academic institution side, maybe that there isn't a dynamic discussion happening between those who have gone through a PhD, or are going through it, and the academic institution, because there's a bank have huge support, and goodwill within the institution. And the time is ripe now that we need to capture this. So bridging that gap between zoom and room, as I call it.
Between zoom in room, it's beautiful. So we have to remind ourselves, and to remind each other, that every little bit every step forward is a success. And so if you're writing 100 words, or you know, you've put a sentence that packs a punch on paper, and you in then you don't do anything for two weeks, you've still taken a step forward, and you're still advancing, and you're still a success, and you don't shouldn't get discouraged. And you know, and I think that there's something to be said about some of these stories that you're telling, because in everything that you're saying, I hear myself, I'm thinking, Oh, that was me, like we can so identify with, like you said, rich stories and narratives that need to be shared and to get out there so that we can be encouraged by each other, and to encourage each other. And those who come along in the future as well. May what are some What surprised you most about through your analysis and the themes that emerged? What was the most like surprising elements for you?
I was very surprised, I suppose about the role of work about the nature of the work environment and, you know, being a supportive place for the learner. I, I you know, I kind of there's not much written about part time doctoral candidates, but work is more seen as well. The learner has a value because they have experience of working and they can bring that to the research and also, it's great to have somewhere that you're, you know, your boss might be flexible or kind or your colleagues might give you time off But, again, I think there's a bigger piece about how the culture of your work environment supports you and can help you as a part time PhD candidate in the absence maybe of that interaction on a regular basis with your, with the academic communities in the university. So that really surprised me. I think there's a lot of work to be done there. Typically, as I think there's a goal now, I think was the strategy 2030 documents in Ireland, we want to look at more flexible ways to support online learners working learners part time, mature, and then, you know, increase enrollments at doctoral level and with the establishment of the new technological universities, I think there's a goal that least 45% of staff, academic staff should have a doctoral level qualification either and, you know, PhD doctors, education, professional doctors. So if you have institutions, where the goal is to encourage more staff to do PhDs, isn't this very useful to know well, what it like to do when and what can we learn? So that was really key, I think the thing about the role of the blogs and the online resources and how dynamically the student engaged and I stood, my PhD complete learners engaged with these resources that were nothing to do with their academic institution is really interesting. And I think maybe that's something that the academic institutions could look at us to create this kind of dynamic interaction. Because a lot of participants found that maybe it was hard to find information online or interpret guidelines, it was maybe Okay, if things were going right, but if things were going wrong, or there was a change in your own plans, or a change in your and supervisory relationship, maybe a supervisor retired and moved to another universe, it was difficult to navigate that space online, or to find it, and, and that that seemed to have to be mediated through human contact, maybe a friend or a colleague, or God knows who you would find to do that. So I think, from the institutional point of view, the value of these online resources and to look at even the documents and the way that information is presented to be more dynamic, you know, to energise that person who's on a computer 10 o'clock after a long day's work, to connect them in, both in terms of the way that the information is presented, but to allow them to interact and engage as well. And you know, that it's not dependent on the nine to five piece, I do think that story of having to take a day off work and go down physically does a lot, I'm not going to the storage is a piece that surprised me at the resilience surprised me. But the resilience of any of us who've gone to doctoral education, surprised me surprised me that we're still doing it. And they were wonderful stories and they need to be captured. For me, I think what surprised me is how it was lucky that I fell upon doing the part time completed PhD learner, which again, as I said, emerged from my culinary study that this experience, the learner could reflect on each stage, they've gone through and through and say, yes, this did work for this didn't, versus people like me at mid stage at the time who didn't know. But it was like having my own invisible mentors. So I could hear the voices and my participants, and the resources that they recommend, and the funny stories and the anecdotes and the encouragement, it really was so invaluable to me. And I think that's maybe another piece whether you're full time or part time, because I do think there's a lot of students who are very isolated at the moment, we're doing a PhD. Now, it doesn't matter. As I said, if they're in Galway, or Ghana, if you're not physically able to contact or connect with the university, my best friend's son is sitting at home and is sitting room doing his first year in college. And in a kind of a science based course and working part time elsewhere. His experience is more like mine as a middle aged woman than mine was as an undergraduate, graduate. So we really need to look at those learners worlds, and map them back in to have that kind of dialogue with the academic institutions on making things kind of vibrant and connected. Yeah,
yeah. So what do you what are some things that you hope are, will change as a result of your finding?
I really hope that I think I hope that it will start becoming part of conversations that are already happening, like universal design, learning, and inclusion and engagement of learners. These conversations are really, really happening. And in the light of COVID, and the fact that we're all absent from a physical campus, I think, I hope that my research adds to the stories, you know, to contribute to not just understanding, as I said, Who learners are, whether they're full time, part time, mature, international, working, whatever, but where they are and what else is going on in their lives. I think that I really want this discussion to happen. I think there's something about kind of human centred design there, that you're you're looking at an individual and you're hearing their stories and their life and you're not just thinking okay, I'm here on campus in my particular office or my space or whatever. And, but I'm also thinking of, well, somebody is at home in Italy, or somebody is working full time, or somebody is full time, but has just, you know, had a family member with a disability or, you know, a personal issue in life, or even the richness of what those different experiences can bring to doing a PhD. And that's what I'd like to happen is more dynamic interaction and gathering those stories. There's a whole world or the COVID has really brought to light, and we're all learners at a distance. And that's what I really want my research to add to those discussions.
Yeah, definitely, definitely. What can the community that a part time PhD researcher or even a full time PhD researcher is surrounded by what can they do if anything to support someone who's working on their PhD?
Well, I think again, that really depends on the position of that learner themselves and within their own lives. And I think maybe more encouragement from an academic university or academic institutions to make visible this part time PhD and learner. So part time, casual, will maybe tell their family and their friends, I am actually doing a PhD at the moment, I am actually struggling and tell her colleagues, or again, make it more explicit that, you know, the learner themselves has a role and progress in their studies, and finding the way that you're not on your own. Because I think the worst thing no matter who you are, or where you are, is, if you don't have any reference points, any community, outside yourself, not just to support you psychologically. But to help you to progress to those are my academic hurdles within the PhD, which are very challenging to produce original research. So I think that's a piece that needs to be done. So tell your family, tell your friends, seek help, go to the counselling, service, connect, connect, connect via online, or face to face, whatever you can do, but also for institutions to make visible, these diverse learners. I mean, one of my participants said that said, it doesn't matter whether you're in San Francisco and Dubai or Bondi Beach, information should be accessible, regardless of where the learner is 24 seven, and there should be a way to engage so that that's one piece. And I think the the other piece, then is about making part timers and diverse learners experience more visible on websites, and also getting learners and people from the community in to talk to PhD candidates. And not just academics. But I read a book recently, and the guy was a journalist, but he was a brilliant interviewer. Why don't we get people like that to come in and talk to Peter, learn how to interview, you know, make this really living research, get people who finish their PhDs to do what you're doing now come and talk about these experiences, or share them in some way, like a podcast is brilliant. So creating those communities, as well as assuming that the learner will have access to them within their own personal life or their working life, or the institution, it has to be quite intentional. And explicit, I think, to keep the PhD is a viable and attractive, and, you know, venture for learners who may be scattered all around the world, but doing a PhD in an institution, Ireland or working, or with all these different things going on in life.
Now, I guess what I want to ask you is now that you're at the end of your PhD journey, what are your own plans moving forward? What do you plan on doing now that you've got this almost completely behind you?
I don't know. I mean, I have to say, I'm really interested in this whole idea of universal and design learning, I loved your conversation with Dr. Dr. With Dr. Margaret Floyd. So this whole issue of of inclusion, and engagement and connecting that learner in who may not be visible within a physical campus or may not have presence, it's so relevant nowadays, I'm just kind of sitting and watching the space. If I could turn myself into 15 people I do more on the PhDs I do more on first year is their experience in college and COVID, the mommies, the learners, the daddies, the workers that have teachers on the children, and, you know, what hasn't been looked at the socially and physically distance learner in terms of inclusion, face to face online. So that's the shape I suppose, roughly, of where I am now, where I go.
I don't I'm hoping that our conversation today didn't didn't actually scare off any prospective people that want to do PhDs in the future. So what I would like to do is ask you for our listeners today. If if they're just beginning their PhD journey, or they're just interested in getting started, whether part time or full time, um, do you have any resources or recommendations toolkits that you can provide some things that you can point them in the direction to get started to encourage and support them?
Let's say the first thing if you're starting a PhD and this is something an academic said to me, You Think about your burning question, what is your burning question? And why are you doing this? What do you hope to get out of it? Because if you literally just want a doctor before your name, it's not going to sustain you through those. And you know, through the lifecycle of a PhD, it's a long process. So I think the first thing is burning question, what's your Burning Man? And how do you keep it alive? So keeping it alive? It's about two things. It's about interaction, interaction with the academic processes, and communities within the academic institution, and the online resources. And then agency, what are you doing yourself to progress your study, and is that informed by other people who are familiar and experienced with this because there's no point. And it's wonderful to mon to your poor friends, who you know, who can sit there and nod smilingly. But, you know, you have to, in some way, plug yourself into that world, because online or face to face, these are the resources, I find really helpful, what is called How to write a thesis by Rowena Murray. And she talks a lot about binge writing and snack writing. And I think that's really helpful, you know, that he, you know, the little small pockets of writing are just really can energise you and add value to your overall finished thesis as the big chunk. So you don't have to do stuff in big chunks, because that's very intimidating. If you're part time, and you don't have much time, you know, so think inadequately think for full timers to bring it with those small chunks. So I think that's really helpful in terms of the blogs. And there's one by n, an academic called Pat Thompson called patter. I love I love I love her and her blog, and there's another one called viable survivors. And again, I found that extremely helpful. But I think trying to find something that suits you and suits your style. There's an awful lot out there about the academic writing process, and about, you know, going through a PhD. But I mean, I know I've had ones that I recommended to people, or they recommended me, and they just haven't quite decided to trust yourself trust, you know, your style of working and writing, but do reflect a review. I think keeping a reflective journal is a great idea, what's working, what's not working, why, what next, and what different, even just those small questions. So that's what I say, and balance it up with other stuff.
Now, I'd like to know if you have any tips, or tricks or final words, for someone to encourage them who to say to them and help them finish that PhD.
And I think in terms of finishing the PhD, and this is quite hard during COVID, but I am set yourself some goal even that you're going to attend some conference. And you know, some situation that forces you to write, I protect particularly even a short presentation, those five minutes, and presentations where you have to do five slides and five minutes, there are a great way for focusing your research giving you a goal to go through and connecting, I think with WhatsApp groups, if you've anybody in your circle at all, who's doing a PhD, connecting with them read each other's work. And we have a wonderful person in our whatsapp group who set a goal of 100 days 100 days of your PhD, so even maybe 20 days or 30 days, and set yourself small goals. And they have to be meaningful and have an output that you have to share it with somebody afterwards to produce something or done something different. And take lots of breaks and give yourself rewards. So don't make it hell really don't make it as pleasant as possible. And link in with the services. If you have access to any kind of supportive network as a PhD candidate, or you keep yourself connected to conferences or whatever way. Just keep it a living process. Don't have it sitting in the corner gathering dust, and then your mind for months and months because you will drive yourself mad particularly in this world of COVID where we can be quite isolated physically.
Yeah, wonderful. And definitely surround yourself by people who are going to build you up and not tear you down. Maybe it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your research. And again, I'm I'm so excited for you. Congratulations on on your successful vive again.
Oh, absolutely. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much for asking me. This is really how plugged me in? No.
Very good.
All right, we'll
chat again soon. Thanks. I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on a dash of salt, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Season with just the right touch of experts and education and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to a dash of salt on pod bean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.