Hello and welcome back to so we got a live site where your hosts Frieda and Lisa to lifestyle undergrad students trying to navigate her future careers. Are you doing? I'm doing good. yesterday. I'm like 85% sure. I saw a squirrel running around with a Ferrero Rocher. Oh my god, what? Like an unwrapped for overweight but how can you distinguish and unwrapped for her crochet from like the multitude of other things, other brown objects. Okay like that's what like that's what I was thinking to right like the person I was with like she was like, Yeah, like is that a female rochet? Or is that just like a clump of dirt? But then we were like, why would a squirrel just carry around a clump of dirt? You know? I was like theorising, I was like, cuz then we started Googling. Like, do squirrels have opposable thumbs can squirrels unwrap chocolate? Like she wanted to Google can can squirrels unwrapped Ferrero and I was like, that's like, way too specific. You got to go like more broad and we still couldn't get anything. And all we got were like all these adorable suggestions about squirrels like how to feed a squirrel. Do squirrels know you exist? Do squirrels remember you? So? Oh my god. Yeah. But basically the conclusion is that squirrels don't have opposable thumb. So my theory is that someone was walking on the sidewalk. And they like unwrapped Ferrero, and then they dropped it until they just left it there. And instead of throwing it away, like a good human, and so I'm assuming the squirrel got it, and I hope they're not like dogs. He was a big boy, though. I think he'll be okay. Very interesting. Um, how are you doing? I'm doing good. Before we get into how I'm doing, we talked on our mini cast last time about like, how on the McGill Reddit like everyone's jokes and joking about how squirrels are taking over campus and stuff like that. Like that's actually what's happening to our podcast.
There's a Rick and Morty episode about like, squirrels are like hyper intelligent, like don't mess with squirrels. Yeah. All right. Um, yeah, I'm doing good this week. I school just started again, which is interesting. Oh, yeah. So weird. I don't get why you guys start on a Wednesday, like it would make worse I have no answer. We are just as confused. But yeah, I've kind of been thinking about like, what? Like, so basically, between four following and being a student and doing podcast stuff, I'm kind of like, how am I like, what kind of schedule should I use? Otherwise, I'm like, seriously, just gonna get stressed and like burnt out. Um, so I think you'll like this, this little tidbit, but I watched the like one of the latest like CGP Grey videos. You're doing we can Wednesday?
Oh, oh my god. I'm gonna try. No, you
gotta do okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, you actually have what you don't want to talk. So here's the thing is I have two classes on Wednesday, but one of them is on our shake class, because they're all pre recorded lectures that really Sunday. Oh, wow. And the other class doesn't have any participation element that's graded. And also, that class is like super boring, and I need to watch it on twice the speed anyway. So yeah, I'm just gonna do a weekend Wednesday. And if you don't know what that is, by the way, you should just watch the video because it's really great. And CGP Grey is that means we now have to link it in. Yeah, that's fine. Okay. So yeah, I'll let you know how that goes. Hopefully it's a very restful Yeah, I mean, it's also not that hard to explain, like in like in a few words. I really don't think you needed the two and a half minute video. All he had to say is you have week Wednesday and Saturday. Wait, no. Yeah. Wednesday and Sunday as like weekend days. Yeah. But I think like his explanation for why it's beneficial, like was very good. Solid logic. Yeah. Alright, so today we're talking to Jana Marvin about physiotherapy and clinic management. Jenna is a clinic manager and physiotherapist at pillars of wellness in Burlington. She completed her undergrad degree in kinesiology at the University of Waterloo. Then she enrolled in the physical therapy Master's programme at Queen's University and became a licenced physiotherapist. Jenna specialises in physical rehabilitation for adults and children with neurological injuries. She has added experience working with infants and children. Thank you for joining us today, Jenna. You're so welcome. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So the first thing we wanted to ask you was why you decided to pursue kinesiology when you're going into University.
To be completely honest, it was more of a process of elimination of what I knew I didn't want to do. I was involved in a lot of different types of sports. When I was younger, I was really physically active. I always had a general interest in how the body works. So it was a pretty natural, you know, do I want to pursue biology, that type of Route, I typically did very well in some of the life sciences in school. I did exercise science in high school. And that really grabbed my attention. So
I didn't know that was something you could take in high school.
Yeah, it was just like a one, one time course that I took in grade 12. And it was really, really interesting. I learned about you know, how muscles work and how the body moves and that type of thing. And I was just really captivated by it. So I decided to go into kinesiology.
Cool, like, and when you were in kinesiology, like, What? What were you thinking like when I mean, at the beginning, middle, like were in terms of where your career would go? Yeah. So
in the beginning, I, I basically just wanted to learn more about the human body. And then I figured I would eventually just decide where I was going to go from there. Just kind of by chance, a lot of the electives that I took in the key psychology programme had a lot to do with the brain, and how the brain controls the body. I also took a lot of different psychology courses. And so it became pretty evident early on that I had a really strong affinity to some, you know, neurological type something. And it wasn't until about third year university, that I figured out that I wanted to be not only just a physiotherapist, but that I wanted to kind of specialise in neuro physio.
Oh, wow. So like, by the year, the beginning of your undergrad, you already kind of knew you wanted to do physio,
um, I knew I wanted to do something in physical rehabilitation, I didn't quite know what that was going to look like, because of my co ops. And so my other opportunities and talking to my friends, I really tossed around, you know, clinical research, versus like lab based research, versus being an actual rehabilitation professional. So it kind of the first two years, I tossed around a lot of different careers. And I reached out and spoke to a lot of people, you know, kind of got some volunteer experiences in to see if what I wanted was, or what I thought I wanted is actually what I wanted. And then I had a co op in my third year at Toronto rehab, which is downtown. And I was working as a clinical research assistant, but I was working hand in hand with neuro physios. And so right then in there, it was almost like an immediate Aha, like, this is exactly what I want to do. Working with people with brain injury and stroke. And then from there, it obviously expanded. But it was that experience working with clients with stroke and brain injury, and the physiotherapist that kind of set me on my path to where I am now.
That's cool. That's like also, that I also find that interesting, because that's a bit more of a straightforward path, I would say, then, a lot of the people we've interviewed, like for practice or for the previous episode, or that we're going to interview in the future. Oh, interesting. So yeah, yeah, no, it's like, it's good to know, you know, like, sometimes it does work out. And, you know, like, I'm glad that you, I guess, like, knew what you wanted to do. And that, you know, you're able to get that. Yeah, I
think it's, I really just, I think it helped that I kept an open mind. And I basically took all the things that I enjoyed learning about in university, and I made a career out of it. So it wasn't like, Oh, I think I want to be a researcher, what kind of research could I do? It was more, I really like the brain. And I really like learning about how the brain controls the body. And I want to help people, you know, what, what can I do as a job within those parameters to me? Yeah,
yeah, I feel like the way that you went around exploring, like, the potential interests that you had is like a really, like, great way of going about it, like just trying things out until you kind of came across what you wanted to go for further.
Mm hmm. Because a lot of experiences that you'll have, are mostly going to be helping you to decide what you don't want to do, as opposed to what you do want to do. So kind of keeping tabs on, whether it be you know, the types of people or populations that you enjoy working with or the type of work setting that you like, and take all the things that you really enjoy and put that together and say, Okay, how can I make this my job?
Right, right. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. And so just kind of leading into that, like, what can you lose focus through what happened after your undergrad. Third Degree, what did you get up to?
So I believe I would have had to apply for physio school it said it seems like so long ago, within my fourth year of undergrad, I was in the Waterloo Co Op programme. So because of the co op programme, it takes a total of five years to do the four year degree, because you have five Co Op terms of four months each. So it would have been towards like the fourth year of my studies, but would have been the fifth year of my undergrad that I would have applied to physio school, I applied to a few other jobs and other things just in case I didn't get into physio school, because your school was and still is really, really competitive. So I was so thrilled to be able to get in on my first try. A lot of my friends and colleagues didn't get in on their first try. And so I felt really fortunate to be one of the few who did and so right after undergrad I had a couple months off, I guess and then I went, I moved to Kingston and started physio school that September.
straight as an arrow. That's, that's amazing.
Yeah, again, very fortunate every, everything fell into place really, really nicely. I mean, I worked. I worked hard for it. I can't say that it.
Yeah, no, no, for sure. For sure. Yeah.
I worked just as hard as so many of my colleagues, and they unfortunately didn't get into physio school. So, yeah,
I didn't know it was so competitive, like, what do they ask for? Is it like, what's the great cutoff? Um, I mean, at least at the time that you were applying? Yeah,
I think actually now I believe it is like a 4.0. Like, I believe the average need like an 85 or above. Oh, always 4.0 on like,
what scale?
That's a great question.
I thought you'd bet on a four point scale? No,
no, I just remember, on my pieces of paper, I remember seeing 4.0 and having a panic moment being like, that's perfect. But it wasn't actually. So I believe the average, I believe it was an 85. And above when I was applying, and I believe now it's 90, or upwards of 90. Depending on the school that you're applying to. There's different processes. So for queens, there was obviously your grades. You had to write an essay. And there was something else but I can't quite remember what it was. McMaster has personal interviews, U of T has a computerised exam. Plus, potentially an interview. And Western now does interviews as well. So it's, it's getting more and more competitive as we go. But I believe beginning the year that I applied and up until this year, from what I understand, in terms of how competitive it is, it's on par with med school.
Hmm, that is I actually didn't know that. That's interesting.
Yeah, so you hear a lot of people that say, Oh, I'm applying to med school, but I'm applying to physio as my backup. That's like the biggest pet peeve amongst physios because we all know that it's just as hard to get in. You know, if you're genuinely interested in both careers, then obviously, you know, you should definitely apply to both. But for those who just assume that they're going to get into physio, if they don't get into med school, we, we don't like hearing people say that.
Like, why is that the case is that because there's so many people who want to go into it look kind of like the med school situation, or
your guess is as good as mine. It's a very popular career choice amongst, you know, health science, life science, kinesiology graduates. I personally feel that a lot of people don't understand the full scope of physio before they apply. So I feel like once they get there, they're actually a little bit shocked about all the different things that they're going to learn. And then a lot of people drop out after the first few weeks, which is then unfortunate, because that spot typically does not get filled. So you're taking away the spot from somebody else. So my biggest piece of advice for anybody who is thinking about applying to physiotherapy is understanding the true scope of what a physiotherapist can do. And making sure that all of those things align with what you may want to do with your career. Right, right. Because it's
not just like how to treat injuries, the you also learn about the physics of how the body moves, right?
For sure. So it's the physics of the body of body movements, which we call biomechanics. And you learn all the different systems across all ages of life across all treatment settings. So like respiratory from like birth to old age. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So cardio respiratory, musculoskeletal And neurology ology, basically Yeah, they're basically the three pillars of physiotherapy, neurology, cardio, respiratory and musculoskeletal. So you'll learn all, all the potential ways that you can help people with those with conditions within those pillars. From birth, all the way through to the elderly, you'll learn all the different treatments and conditions and all the different things that you can do in an acute setting like a hospital, and a community health team, which would be outpatient, or in a clinic setting, which is what people are traditionally more familiar with. So realistically, the way that I kind of like to phrase it is, if you pick an age, and you pick a condition, and you pick a place to work, there's a physio that works there.
Yeah, very cool. Um, and so you've talked about, like, overarching, like, what are the kind of different places that people work as physio therapists, but as like on just a day to day basis, you know, you worked as a physiotherapist for for a long time, like, what did that look like day to day?
It depends where I was working, I worked in a few different places across my career. So working in a private clinic is where I've spent most of my career. day to day every day is pretty much different. So I used to see clients, I would have a little baby come in like a three month old baby come in to do some treatment. And then I would maybe have an elderly person come in who'd suffered from a stroke. And then I would have a spinal cord, injury patient come in, and we're working on walking. I could have somebody who has Parkinson's come in. And then of course, you can have somebody with, you know, knee pain, back pain, neck pain, and they're just trying to perform better at school or they're trying to get back to their sport. So that's kind of the how my day to day is have gone. Mind you, I worked in a more specialised clinic for the most part, so not every physiotherapist in clinic would see such a variety of injuries. I've also worked in outpatient paediatrics, so I worked at a children's treatment centre. And so I worked with children from the age of two to about the age of 10, who were diagnosed with a acquired condition or they were born with a congenital condition and working on their, their physicality, right like working on their muscles working on their strength, their flexibility, their walking their balance, to help them be the best version of themselves.
So it was that kind of is that kind of where the connection between the kind of like the neurology and the working with like children comes in.
Yeah, so unless you're kind of working with, you know, like teenage or child athletes, typically, paediatrics falls under the neurology realm, because usually you're dealing with a condition such as cerebral palsy, or Down syndrome, or something more vague, such as global developmental delay. So the child is not developing the way that they're supposed to, for whatever reason, nowadays, there is a tonne of just very random chromosomal deletions or chromosomal mutations, and they're causing delays in motor development. They're causing delays in speech communication, fine motor development. So oftentimes, this one little mutation of a chromosome results in the child having a physio therapist, occupational therapist, a speech therapist, probably a social worker, potentially a feeding and swallowing team, potentially in orthotics team, getting used to working with other professionals is key, no matter what type of physiotherapist you are, but especially when you're working with children, because oftentimes there's more than one service that they could benefit from.
Yeah, that's really interesting. It's also interesting thinking about how if you work with children as a physiotherapist, you're more likely to see certain kinds of children because, you know, like, if a kid is going to a physiotherapist, it's more likely for like a certain kind of condition than like another one. Most likely, yeah, most likely, I guess, like, on the track of what being a physio is like, did you because you also mentioned you were kind of interested in research when you were in university. Have you ever done any kind of, you know, like, participated in any clinical trials as a physio like recommended clients to clinical trials or like done any research of your own.
So I have referred clients to clinical trials, especially, you know, working with more specific populations such as stroke and brain injury. I've participated in a few different research projects. So You know, they were looking for physical therapists to help run a battery of tests in order to test different clients. And so I kind of have assisted with those. I haven't been as involved in research since actually getting my like physiotherapy licence. It was more when I was in undergrad, I was actually running the experiments. Very cool.
So in your role as a physiotherapist, did you get to work on any other types of like long term projects, or Were there any other? Yeah, just more long term, maybe not necessarily research related, anything like that.
So I've done a few long term projects, some of the clinics that I've worked for have teamed up with different hospitals to help collect some data for different research projects. One of the clinics that I worked for before, they have a robotic assisted gait device. So they were at one point running, they were collecting some data to test the efficacy of that robotic assisted gait device. So it is incredibly cool. And the clinic that I'm working for now, because my role is a bit of like a two part role, we are doing a lot of projects in terms of trying to grow our business, and trying to make the most out of the services that we offer. Because I have a bit more of a management role what I'm in right now. So I don't know if that counts as a long term project, but it's definitely a big part of my life. Yeah, I
think that definitely counts for sure. I was originally going to ask you about the robotic device, because I want to know more about that. But I kind of want to know more about both of those things. So let's start talking about your projects, expanding business as well.
Yeah, so the robotic there's a bunch of different types of robotic assisted gait devices or exoskeletons, as we call them in our industry. Lots of different facilities are, are kind of jumping on the technology train. The old, the old way of thinking was that technology is going to hinder our abilities as a physiotherapist. But in my experience, anyway, implementing and incorporating technology has been nothing but amazing. Yeah, so it's a really, really cool device that kind of gets strapped onto the outside of a person. And it all gets calibrated with the specific, you know, biomechanical forces that that person might need in order to, you know, straighten or bend their knee, for example. So typically, clients with who've had a brain injury or a spinal cord injury would use it. And the idea is to pair it with their rehab to try and you know, get their walking a little bit stronger or a little bit better. Some of the projects that I'm working on now, we have teamed up with some really interesting companies, one of them called the Vox neuro, and it's actually an EKG assessment. So it's a cognitive health assessment. So we actually put the eg caps on the clients example, somebody who's had a concussion. And we can actually use different you know, we run them through different tests on the computer while they're wearing the eg cap. And so we record the brainwaves to assess their ability to concentrate, or their working memory or different aspects of their attention.
And for context, the eg is just a cap with a bunch of electrodes that can kind of detect which parts of the brain are active, right?
Yes, and obviously, different types of eg are calibrated to pick up different types of brainwaves. Because different types of brainwaves could infer different things, right? Like your alpha waves would be more sleeping waves, that type of thing. So we collect the data. So I guess that's kind of like research, but we collect the data at our clinic. Our clinic was the very first one in Canada to be certified to do the box neuro assessment. And so I would run the client through the assessment with the eg cap on, we send the data off to be processed. And from there, we have a purely objective report that can indicate what somebody's cognitive health is like. So their attention, their working memory, information processing, and their data gets compared to, you know, people have their same sex and age, and we're able to let them know, you know, what your ability to concentrate is below where it should be, and that's likely a result of your concussion. And that can just help guide a lot of our different treatments too, right?
Yeah, interest. It's like a it's like a different way because there are other ways to measure concentration, but it's like a different kind of tests that you can add to the repertoire.
Yeah, for sure. Because this one is like purely objective. A lot of the other ways to measure concentration involve, like subjective questionnaires, or that type of thing. So this one is like, it can't be disputed, right? This is how your brain responded to the test. Therefore, this is how your cognitive health is performing.
Yeah. And that really ties into like, you know, avoiding bias and healthcare and and other aspects of life. So yeah, that's like, super cool.
Yes. Then the other kind of long term project that my clinic is currently working with, we are using a system called the pons system, p o n s, as in a Pons portion of your brainstem. Oh, yeah. And so it is designed, it's really, really cool. It's a little mouthpiece with a series of electrodes, and you put the mouthpiece in your mouth, and when it turns on, it just delivers a really low level of stimulation. So it just kind of like a vibration, the tongue, there's a lot of nerves in the tongue. Specifically, I think this one targets the trigeminal nerve and the facial nerve, which do have direct and indirect connections to the cerebellum, which is in your brain. So by stimulating the tongue, which has connections to the balance centres of the brain, while doing balance, and walking treatment, the idea is you're kind of going to be supercharging, the treatment that you're already doing, because you're supercharging, the nerves that are connecting from the tongue to the brain is a word. In my clinical experience. I the results are phenomenal. And there's plenty of like anecdotes and other things online. As well, you can see like patient success stories and all that sort of thing. Health Canada, which is not typical of Health Canada, but Health Canada was the first country to approve the use of the pons device. Oh, you mean Canada was the first country to Yes, yes. Right. Health Canada approved the device. It is currently, like on label, it's being used for people with traumatic brain injury or concussion, or people with MS. Multiple Sclerosis. Yeah. So for people with those two types of conditions, it's considered on label to help with balance and walking difficulties.
Yeah, that's really interesting. Like, it's it's also interesting talking about like that intersection between technology and healthcare. Because I think, especially for people our age, something that I often think about when I'm thinking what kind of career do I want, like even one of my professors said that, like, it's good to think about, like, if it's going to become automated, because, you know, you don't you don't want to go into a career if it's foreseen that it's going to become obsolete. Right. But it's also kind of interesting, like some people saying, like, Oh, you know, like, physiotherapists might become, like, less necessary in the future, because there's a lot of stuff that machines can do instead, right? But another way of looking at that is that you're just going to be using more technology in your day to day work, like you're still going to be making like the decisions and like facilitating everything, but it's just that now you have additional tools. Exactly. So yeah, yeah, that's cool. That's actually like really reassuring for me, as someone who like is interested in going into like healthcare or like research field. Yeah,
I mean, I don't think that it should be one or the other. In my experience, like I say, I've had nothing but positive experiences, incorporating technology into my practice, as it stands right now with the Vox neuro and the pond systems. You know, they're, they're presenting really fascinating ways to kind of help our clinic grow and develop and expand our, you know, client repertoire. It's expanding my abilities as a physiotherapist because I had to do training right to become certified in order to deliver these types of therapies. And assessments. Yeah, so it's an ever evolving field. So it's not like when you become a physio, you're gonna be stuck doing the same thing all the time. Even in my long but short career, right? I've developed so many different skills, and I've worked with so many different types of people, so many different places. All with the same degree, right? I didn't have to go back to school per se. So
yeah, and so I guess you can talk about this, both in your, the role you had as a physiotherapist, but also maybe now is your role as a clinic manager? How, what is the kind of lifestyle like what happens if like, clients cancel? How often do you go into the clinic? Yeah, what does that look like for you? And how has that changed? Maybe over the over time? Yeah. So
again, it all depends on the setting that you work in. For me personally, if working in private practice, typically physiotherapists are independent contractors, so they're self employed
only even if you're within a clinic, like you're still considered self employed.
Yes, more often than not, if you work for it. clinic, you're considered self employed.
Oh, right, because you're paid by the you're paid by the appointment. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, and they kind of just like manage like your clients and Oh, I see.
Yeah, so depending on the clinic that you work for, you know, they will take care of the marketing to help source out some of clients for you, you can obviously bring in your own clients, right. But they kind of take care of the admin side of things. So they'll help manage your schedule, they'll do a lot of the marketing, obviously, they provide the space and they provide the equipment. So as a results, clinics will often take a percentage of Yes, a total cost of that the appointment cost, just to kind of balance out all the hard work that they put in to kind of make that appointment happen. So to answer your previous question, if you are like, typically, if you're self employed working in a clinic, and a client cancels, you don't make money off of that appointment, and neither does the clinic. Being self employed, you know, you can kind of set your own schedule, if you want to work 10 till two, then you can if you want to work eight till eight, then you can do that to different clinics have different setups, obviously, I don't want to say they're all like that. But typically, if you are running your own business out of a clinic, then you can kind of, you know, shape your schedule. Some days, your back to back to back to back to back to back to back with clients. And you need to learn how to eat a large amount of food in a very short amount of time. It's like a running joke is like how quickly can you eat while your client is like putting shoes on, you know? Yeah, so Sunday's are like that other days, you know, you need to, you know, do a lot of clinical notes, you're writing reports. So there's a lot more kind of downtime. Having a really good sense of time management is key. And being very organised is key no matter what kind of physiotherapist you are, or where you work. Some people who work in a hospital, or if they work for Community Health Team, or if they work at a community centre, they may have more of a typical, you know, nine to five, eight to four salaries kind of like on shift. Yeah, so they'd be more on shift you work certain number of days, certain number of days off, and you'd be paid a salary. So typically, if you work for a hospital, you'll have benefits and retirement savings and all that taken out of your paychecks. But if you're self employed, then obviously you have a lot more responsibility and a lot more flexibility with your money.
That's what I didn't know that. So that So does that mean, do the clinics ever require you to work a certain number of hours like you have to work at least 10 hours a week kind of thing? Is it looked down on if you work very little.
So I mean, I think that depends on your clinic. I think that's just what you would negotiate when you sign your contract to work there. For some clinics, you know, if you tell them, I want to be busy, and I want to be a big role in this clinic, but I only want to work Fridays from 10. till three, there's a big discrepancy there. Right. So that would be caused for conversation. But you know, typically, if you say you want to work full time for a clinic, there is a bit of an expectation that you'll be putting in, you know, relatively full time hours. But you know, for some people who, you know, have kids, and they want to work around school schedules or daycare schedules, for those who, you know, maybe their partner can't get home on time for the kids on Tuesdays and Thursdays. So you want to end earlier on those days. Typically, there's a little bit of flexibility there. But ultimately, it all comes down to the conversations that you have with the clinic director when you go and negotiate your contract.
And it's common for one physio to work at multiple clinics, right, like kind of like part time two or three clinics. Yeah,
I've had a lot of colleagues who work in multiple places at once. And I also have colleagues who only work in one place one of my friends, she has experience in pelvic floor physiotherapy, and certain clinics, you know, have a more prominent role in that field than others. So she kind of works with a more of a pelvic floor physiotherapy clinic. But then she also has a really strong interest in orthopaedics and neuro so she works at another clinic to kind of get those clients. Sometimes it just comes down to, you know, finances or scheduling or location, right sometimes it's just logistical. Other times it's so that people can vary their schedule. So there's there's lots of different reasons why people may work in more than one place, but yes, it is quite common.
Yeah, I also relate to that because I've done a lot of work as you know, tutoring, especially especially last summer and it's it's interesting because, like cancellations it does impact it and that wasn't even like, like I didn't even really like need need the money right to like pay rent or utilities or Anything, yes, but like I've definitely thought about a career as a physio. And like one of the things that I've thought about is that on one hand, the flexible schedule is nice, like being able to set your own hours, like if I want to work less hours for my own health. But at the same time, it's like, I don't know if it would make me like stressed or like, worried to, like, not know for sure, like, if I'm going to have a stable income kind of thing, right? It's definitely, definitely something to consider for sure.
I mean, once you kind of in the beginning, obviously your your caseload will be quite small. So as a result, your paychecks will be quite small. But as you as your caseload gets larger and larger, you know, you can kind of anticipate, I actually don't know the number, but let's just say, you know, five to 10% of your clients that week may cancel or get moved around or move from Friday to Monday, or whatever it is, right. So on a monthly basis, you should be able to roughly predict, my income will be somewhere between here and here. Summer months are a little bit tougher, because people go away on vacation. I mean, not right now, because of COVID. But yeah, so typically people will go away, or, you know, they're wanting to spend more time with their kids, because it's summer, and they're not in school, around Christmas time, you're either really, really busy, or because people are trying to use up the benefits they have left or you're really, really empty, because people are taking time off to spend time with their family. So there are times of the year that are predictably busier and predictably slower. But all in all, you can kind of anticipate an average monthly income. You just have to be really good at managing your money and your finances.
That's actually helpful. Like, I didn't think of it that way. Like, you know, obviously, if you're making more money, like for me, I was only working like 10 hours. So I guess there's more variants. But if you like are consistently working, you can almost kind of like statistically predict it, I guess. Exactly.
Yeah. And then again, you know, there's like, we actually call it the August curse, like August is just a month where people wake up that morning and decide that they don't want to go to their physio appointment. That's also a tutor incurs. Exactly, it's just the August cursed all around. Yeah. So you know, there's times of the year that you might say, oh, okay, I guess I need to be a little bit tighter with my spending this. But typically speaking, if you have a full caseload, you've got lots of clients, a little bit of variation here and there is not.
And you can also like save so that you're not like, you know, going like month to month kind of thing. Exactly.
Yep. As long as you keep in mind that you have to pay additional taxes, because you're a business owner, right. So you have to set aside some additional funds and additional money for taxes at the end of the year.
Yeah, so we talked about some of the really cool things that are happening your profession right now. And some of the ways that you've been able to help clients make, you know, really good progress. We've also talked about some of the kind of more even like logistical difficulties with working, you know, kind of being part of a business and being self employed. So overall, what do you think are like some of your favourite things about the profession and some of the things that you find most challenging about your work?
My favourite thing, and it's why I continue to do what I do, and it sounds super cheesy, and I know it sounds super cheesy. So you don't have to tell me and you can laugh, it's okay. It's when you're able to help a person or in my case, a child even accomplish the one thing that they really, really want to do. There's no better feeling to me ever. I've had people say I want to be walking by this time, because my daughter's getting married and I want to walk her down the aisle. Right. It could be something like that. It could be some of my my paediatric clients. They say I want to play soccer with my friends at recess, and I want to run faster, so I can play soccer. You know, so like really small things. There's one woman who after she had her stroke, obviously, the function in one of her arms was taken away pretty significantly. And she said, I want to be able to have tea with my husband without using any adapted cups or spoons or anything. I want to be able to drink tea, and just enjoy my morning with my husband. So it can be something so what might seem so small and simple to us, or, you know, for other physios. It could be getting that hockey player back to playing hockey, it could be getting somebody with COPD back to being able to be a part of their walking group, right? It could be so many different things. But being able to help people accomplish that one thing that they really want to do, that's the best part. That's why we all do what we do. We just want to help and physical rehabilitation is the way that I can help somebody get their life back Then I'm honoured right to be a part of their, their process. The tough part about our profession is because you are so motivated to help these people, you often get very emotionally invested in their life, in their family, in their jobs in there everything. And so it can be very emotionally draining. It can be very emotionally taxing. And I think that's something that people often underestimate about physiotherapists is, you know, I have to give really tough news to a lot of people, a lot of the time, you know, your child may or may not be able to walk without the use of this Walker for a while, or for somebody who's had a complete spinal cord injury, there is a very, very low chance that you will walk again, you know, like, there's, I have to give really bad news a lot of the time or, you're right, you're not making any progress right now, what can we change? How can we try and make this better, and just seeing people work hard and not see progress, just by the nature of their injury, or, you know, seeing people work really, really hard, and it's just, their body is not responding the way you would expect, or they're not meeting the goals as quickly as they had hoped. And now they're really devastated. So it can be very emotionally draining. Regardless of what type of physio you are. And regardless in what setting you work in, you know, people typically get into this field because they care because they want to help. And that often makes us very sympathetic and empathetic people, which is often our downfall, right? Because we often get really emotionally involved. But you know, that just makes the success that much better to write because you are so involved, and you genuinely care about these people, or their children or their families. You know, prior to COVID. Obviously, I would have, I was treating a child and I would have mom, their dad would be their grandmother. Right to cheer on this little one as she's doing her therapy, learning how to walk or learning how to ride a bike and learning how to do stairs by herself, because she's a certain age, and she doesn't want me to have to hold her hand while she's doing the stairs anymore. So yeah, you have like a whole cheering squad, right for all these people. And so you get very involved with their life, which I think is the best part yet. Also, I don't want to call it the worst part. That's not what I'm trying to say. But the toughest, the toughest part COVID has changed a lot of the cheerleading sections to non existent anymore. But yeah, so that's been a very different experience, working in healthcare in general as well.
Yeah, definitely relate with like the tough part of the job being like, you know, when you can't give them exactly what the progress that they want to see, like, so I work as a residence advisor, and we just finished our training over the summer. And a big part of is that like, all the people in the job really want to be able to help their students and like, do what's best for the students and get very emotional involved in their students as problems and take on that stress on themselves. But yeah, it's like, we talk a lot about like, how we can kind of set those boundaries. And also, you know, we're not our students, saviours. Yeah. So it's a tough balance to strike for sure.
Yeah, very tough. And it takes a lot of time to be able to, to get it right. And even then there will always be those clients that sneak their way past all of your defences. Just get into your heart and never leave, but
especially with kids, right?
Yeah. For me anyway. For me, a lot of people don't like working with kids, they don't feel the same way. But they feel the same way about the elderly, or, you know, middle aged adults. So, for me, the kids just they have such a different perspective on therapy, typically speaking, are just a lot more optimistic. You know, they want to run and be fast so that they can play with their friends at recess to play soccer. They don't care if they have to wear an orthotic or leg brace, they don't care if they have to use a walker, they don't care if they look a little bit different. They just want to get there, right. And typically speaking, the children don't have anything to compare it to. So for example, a child who's born with spina bifida, which is where a part of their spinal cord is exposed when they're born. They often develop a lot of weakness and balance issues. They may or may not walk. So for them, they don't feel the loss of not being able to walk because they've never walked before. Right. So just typically, their outlook is a little bit different. And plus, you know, I like to be silly, and then I like to play game but
Yeah, I was gonna say you have to like make it fun for them. Yeah,
definitely. And that's definitely more in my wheelhouse. That's the way that I like to be. I'm the same way with the adults. They just don't
Yeah, that's sweet. And like that was that was a really good answer. Like you said it was cheesy. And when you said it was cheesy, I thought you were gonna say, you know, like, I get to help people. But I think you gave a much more specific answer than I want to help people. Like, it's the fact that you can help them do the one thing they want to do, which I totally relate to, because, you know, whether it's I want to brush my hair, I want to be able to type or I want to open the door on my own, like, you know, like, Don't underestimate like how, like, important that can be if you're someone who's unable to do that, you know, so Exactly, yeah, just like, that's like a cool answer. Like, I never thought about it that way, like, being able to help give someone the one thing that's so important to them. Well, to try to try and get everyone to try. I guess we can talk a bit about your transition, because you you started off as like purely a physiotherapist for you know, for several years. And then you are now like, kind of like a physiotherapists clinic manager. So do you want us to? Do you want to tell us a bit about like, why you made that change? And what that's kind of been like for you?
Yeah, so I was right in the middle of doing my physio thing. And then, honestly, I woke up one morning, and my feet were so sore, and my hands were so sore, and my wrists were so sore. I was exhausted all the time, it was almost like it happened overnight. So of course, after, you know, months, slash years of investigation, I have been diagnosed with a variety of different autoimmune conditions. And so for me, being a full time manual physio therapist was just not in the cards anymore. I probably could have persevered, I could have pushed through. But ultimately, you know, work life balance is obviously the most important thing. And I wanted to make sure that I was making decisions for myself that were going to result in the healthiest version of Jannah in 10 1520 years, right. So I sought out a way for myself that I can still be a physiotherapist and I can still do what I love. All the while, you know, taking on more of the administrative role, I didn't know at that time, what that was going to look like. And then I landed, where I am now, working for pillars of wellness. And this is by far the most beautiful opportunity that I am so fortunate to have found. So I'm the clinic manager, and obviously I provide neuro and paediatric physiotherapy. So three days of the week, I'm kind of more immersed in my clinic management role. So in addition to kind of managing the staff, and any concerns or issues or, you know, just the day to day happenings of the clinic, I have a very active role in trying to expand the business and trying to, you know, get the word out there, whether that be through different presentations, whether that be for webinars, or podcasts, social media efforts, I work directly with the clinic owners, and they take on a lot of projects involving the staff involving the business. And they, I mean, they're so wonderful, they really do appreciate my input as a clinician as well. Because sometimes, you know, the business side of people and the clinician role, they don't often mix. So sometimes Yeah, like what's best in terms of processes or paperwork, or whatever it might be, just like really does not jive with what clinicians wants or what they think is rights or that type of thing. So having kind of my feet on both sides of things, I think I'm able to offer a really unique perspective with the clinic, and say, you know, what, there's, you know, I can speak to the conditions and say, from the business side, this is what we really, really need to work on. I want to work with you as the clinicians to come up with a way that this is going to work best for everybody, so that the business still continues to grow, get the clinicians are still happy, and they're growing within their own professions as well. Right?
That's actually really I was, I was gonna say the same thing. Like, it's cool that you have the perspective of both sides. And I've never heard of a role like that where, I mean, admittedly, I've ever interviewed many physios. I've never heard of anyone doing like both at the same time. And that's actually seems really cool. And so like the when you're doing the kind of clinic administrative work, is that better for you? Like physically in terms of pain?
Yes, much. So it's definitely more of a, like a desk type job. Right? Right. I'm still in the clinic. So I'm walking around and talking everybody and doing all those things. So physically, it does give my body a little bit of a break. Mentally, it is still quite challenging, obviously, especially because I'm on a huge learning curve and In terms of, you know, expanding my knowledge of what actually happens when you run a business. So, it it fatigues me in different ways, but not all in the same way, if that makes sense. So anyone with anything autoimmune will tell you that fatigue is a big issue. And just like cognitive stuff, let's see, there it goes, again, like your ability to find words, your ability to speak clearly and think clearly, sometimes goes down the drain when you get tired. So with my role, I'm able to kind of have the best of both worlds. And I feel really fortunate to the end in my position.
Yeah, I totally, I totally relate to the confusion part as well, because I've insomnia I've had it for, you know, a few years. And I totally know what you mean, when you're like talking, and then you're like way, and your brain is just clouding over. Yeah. And yeah, it's definitely challenging to work with. It's cool that you're like figuring that out.
Yeah, you'll probably hear it a few times during the podcast, but you'll just I just roll with it. You just got to keep going. Right?
Yeah. Apparently Frieda doesn't even notice what happens to me. So you cover it up? Well, that's good. Um, so I was just wondering in your role now, as a clinic manager, like what kind of things do you feel like you had to kind of learn on the job or like new skills you had to pick up to kind of fill that role?
Yeah, so I definitely had to expand my repertoire of leadership skills. as a clinician, you, you develop a whole series of leadership skills, but working obviously, in more of a business management position, the types of leadership that you need to have are a little bit different. Definitely a very different way of managing my time. You know, I'm working on different projects I'm working towards, you know, big long term plans and projects. So it's just a very different way of utilising my time. I definitely had a very, very steep learning curve, and more just the ins and outs of how the clinic is actually run and how the business is actually run. So everything from billing, you know, invoicing, a lot of the more nitty gritty financial details, all of those things are typically foreign to people who work in health care. So my clinic owners have been amazing and kind of coaching me through all these things. And I'm kind of learning as I go. It's given me a really interesting view on, you know, how it could potentially help clinicians run their business even better, right, as a self employed physio. Yeah, so it's been really exciting. It's been really cool. At times. It's been really hard, but I've definitely enjoyed this transition.
Very nice. Um, and you mentioned before that you do a lot of like webinars and presentations now, I was just wondering, like, Who are you giving those to? What is the purpose of those? I guess?
Yes. So my clinic and a bunch of other clinics as well. They serve as clients who have been injured in auto accidents. So typically, if you're in an auto accident that's been quite significant or severe, and they have suffered some sort of neurological injury, like a brain injury, concussion, spinal cord injury, multiple complex fractures, etc, etc. Not every clinic is equipped in terms of the staff and the invoicing and all those types of things to deal directly with the insurance company or the car insurance companies. So some of the webinars that we've held, we've spoken to law firms to talk about our services, because obviously, these types of clients will seek out personal injury law services. We've spoken to insurance companies, we've spoken to other health care providers, especially when it comes to the Vox neuro and the pons, programmes that were and tests that we're running. We've spoken to, or we're hoping to speak to the Ontario Brain Injury Association, just to kind of, you know, get the word out about what we do and that type of thing. So there's lots of different people that we can present to, just to kind of advocate for our services for our team. My clinic is really unique in the sense that we are an integrated care clinic. So we have a whole variety of professionals working together. Yeah, so we have psychotherapy, we have naturopath, yoga therapy, chiropractic care, lots of different types of physio, different types of occupational therapy, speech therapy, because a lot of our clients will have very complex injuries or complex conditions and more often than not, they would benefit from having more than one type of service right to help improve them as a whole. So being able to have kind of a one stop shop is less stressful for the clients. And it's easier for us because we can communicate You know, all of our clinical plans with everyone within our own clinic as opposed to having to source out people from other places. So, yeah, we're just trying to get the word out about what we do and why we do it. And some of the different, you know, more unique things that we offer that not every clinic can offer. And yeah, so I do a lot of talking.
Yeah, no, no, that's, that's a cool concept. Because a lot of those things influence each other as well like how you're feeling mentally. Like, let's, let's say, if you have depression, or some kind of mood disorder, it totally impacts like your ability, like, first of all, like the physical pain you actually feel, but then to your ability to actually keep on top of your exercises and that kind of thing. Exactly. Yep. You're bang on for sure. All right. I think we're about to wrap up. Is there anything else you want to add before we wrap up? So cool. If you would like to learn more about Janice work, you can visit her clinic website at pillars of wellness.ca, which we will also link in the show notes. And thank you very much for speaking with us today. I genuinely found this really interesting. Yeah, I learned so much today. I told you, this would be a good episode. I'm so glad, happy, happy. So you got a project you'd like to plug creative product idea wacky painted hairstyles, new student club about potatoes. If so, we'd love to advertise it on our podcast. If you're interested in having your ad here, contact us at so you got a lifestyle degree@gmail.com with the subject line podcast at to view our current rates, you can head over to the Services tab on our Facebook page. It's a great way to get the word out about your idea while also supporting this podcast. I don't even know where to start. I just I think that was genuinely such an interesting interview. And I feel like I could have asked her questions for like two hours and still had interesting things to talk about. Yeah, I feel like so I'm, like, unlike you. I wasn't actually considering your career in this at all. And I'm not actually, you know, interested in on a personal level. But yeah, I still found that like I learned so much more than I thought I was expecting to from this. Yeah, it's also so interesting as someone who has done so much physiotherapy, getting a bit more of the behind the scenes about the physio therapy. Yeah. Okay, so I guess we can start by talking about maybe some of the more of physio related things. So like one of the things that I thought was kind of cool that she brought up was that not all physiotherapists work in clinics? Which I think if I think about that, I know that intellectually, but it's just when I think physiotherapist I just think clinic because that's where I've gone from my physios. But yeah, like she mentioned, they, I almost like asked her I wanted to ask her like, do you know what the proportions are? But you know, like, the conversation just went on. But yeah, like, I wonder like how many physios actually work in hospital? But kind of along those lines, I feel so like propella genuinely is a really amazing clinic like I've been going there. I think it's funny that she wants us to plug pillars of wellness, but I'm just going to talk about how propel actually is amazing. Like they do a lot of hands on work. When you go there, they give you like you have 60 minutes with the, you know, physiotherapist, you have the full 60 like you have their undivided attention. Yeah, and they're like, they're actually amazing. And so I feel like because I've had a lot of good physio therapists like throughout my issues or whatever. I often find myself thinking like, what do you do if you're just you're with someone, you just don't know what to do? Like, if you just don't know how to help them. Like, what do you say? Because you are the ultimate like, there's no one you go to. You're it? Right. So, yeah, I would just be like, I just wouldn't know what to do in that situation. And like, I don't know, it sucks. Like, as a tutor, it's very easy for me to say, Oh, sorry, I don't know the answer to that question. But it's, it's kind of different when it's like, I don't know why you can't walk 100% for sure. Yeah. But also like physios have definitely done that with me. Like Hong has literally just been like, I don't know. Yeah, I was gonna Okay, this is more personal about us. So I don't know. Oh, yeah, I'm down. I have no walls. Okay, so overall, the fat like last like week or two, or like our meeting times and stuff we kind of talked a little bit about like, this debate was like, jokey debate about like, whether there's a difference between sleepy and awake, Lisa. But what I didn't realise that Jana brought up was about like, you know, autoimmune issues, like affecting kind of performance and like your, you know, concentration and stuff like that, which like, so it's not necessarily just like sleep affecting, like, potentially not just sleep, it's like, could also be stuff going on, like other stuff going on in your body that just like yeah, so So actually, one of the symptoms of fibromyalgia is this thing that's called fibro fog. Okay, so it's like slow thinking, confused thinking. But I think for me, the difficulty is that I genuinely care Tell if it comes from, you know, fibro or if it comes from the lack of sleep, because it's better when I do sleep. Yeah. It's hard to say. And also, it's been so long, like when you have something when you're like, 16 kind of is just like your whole adult life. So you don't really know. Yeah. Yeah, it just didn't even occur to me. I was like, Oh, my God, like, whoa.
So, yeah, like, she was like, What? What did you miss Jana said that one of the good things about the Oh, God, is that the ECG? Or the it's the eg? Yeah, it's the eg, okay. Was that like, can't be disputed, right. And I thought that was like, interesting, because you can say, first of all, like, I wanted to make a joke about how every single psychologist out there is like, super, super objective, like behaviour tests. Yeah. Cuz it's all questionnaires, like sometimes they're like, you know, do this puzzle or like, do this task. But yeah, like an E, G, or whatever isn't like, it's not perfect. Yeah. And there's still like interpretation and stuff. And it's not. Yeah, I do agree with you that there's still like a degree of So, you know, subjectivity to it. subjective analysis, I guess. But, like, I feel like it's always better to go do more with the more objective tools, right. Like, I think with any tool, there's always a subjective element, even if we forget that a lot of times. This is a lot of the case with like, tech and like big data now. It's like people forget that there's, like, underlying assumptions that these like models and systems are built on. Yeah, so I think it is important to always keep in mind that Yeah, there is like assumptions that things are built on, there's always room for error, and you should be aware of that. But moving from subjective, to more objective is always like the better play. Well, okay, maybe I shouldn't say always, because always, it's just like, you're just asking for trouble. But yeah, a lot of this also has to do with like, maybe historical events in healthcare, where, you know, like personal biases, can definitely play into healthcare decisions and other obviously, other decisions in our societies. I mean, you say that it's usually better to go from like, to go towards the more objective technology, which I agree, but that's in like, this hypothetical scenario, where you have technologies A and B, and they're equally similar in every single way, except for that one is more objective than the other. And as a caveat, like I'm totally like, for Yeah, like using whatever it is, we're like using new tech, and like all that stuff, I think it's great. But just to be devil's advocate, like we do have to consider what is what are the things that these behavioural tests, like memory, or like building blocks, doing surveys, like, what are the kinds of information that those tests give us that we can't get from this new kind of test, even though it is more objective? Like you want to be sure that you're actually testing the thing you want to test, which is, like a bigger deal and like psychology and like that, those kinds of disciplines when it is harder to quantify things. Yep. So I think an interesting consideration. Yeah. 100% that's the same thing with any data collection as well, like, yeah, is it actually what you want to be measuring? Exactly. And especially with psychology, like we know, so little about the brain, like, Sure, you can be like, your frontal lobe is lighting up. And so therefore, it means that you're having, I'm totally making this up, guys. Like you're having like, increased reasoning or whatever. But it's like, that might be wrong. Like that assumption might be wrong. So yeah, so yeah, I mean, like, I just think it's like interesting to consider, like, don't always abandon all the old stuff. Yeah. I don't know if I told you about that. Because reading weapons of mass destruction. We do you say math, weapons of mass destruction. It sounds so funny, because it just sounds like you're saying math with a list? Yeah, well, it really gets into that. And it like gives some amazing examples of like, what it looks like when you measure the wrong things. And they're like real life examples, which is just like terrifying. But yeah. Yeah, I'm like, I'm always so interested in. I just like love imagining scenarios where like, you think that, you know, like, a is causing B and C, but really, a is causing B is causing c like I'm just endlessly amused by imagining those connections in my brain. Yeah. And I think like most people that I talk to about it, they're like, say What now? Yeah, I think like both of us have like a unique love of those. Like, it's weird. It's like, almost like I just like love the logical Yeah, no, but it's actually really scary like than I was when it plays out in real life. Yeah, okay. I still have a few more things to say about the automated stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so one things that she mentioned was that she, you know, people in our industry for a while then be like, Oh, yeah, like when tech gets big and stuff like that, in this industry, like physiotherapists are going to be some of the jobs to go, but actually like her role is just been further enhanced by like having more tech So this kind of, okay, you brought up that like, one thing to think about when making your career decisions is about like, how automatable enrol is, but I'm gonna are you and like, I feel like this is my counter argument to that is I don't think that's something that you can actually accurately predict.
predict. Yes, I think what you can do is predict something that's right on the cusp of maybe being wiped out, like, maybe you can be like, yeah, the publishing industry is probably not going to do that great soon, right. But that's like, it's already started to decline pretty hard. And like, you can only really predict like, one maybe like, a half a step to like one and a half steps. Do I mean, like, I don't truly think you can predict to a meaningful level, that that is a good point to make, like, ideally, you would pick a career that has a lower chance of being automized. But just because of how innovative that, you know, like the industry of like, optimization, or like, machine learning, and all that stuff is, it's like, so hard to predict what is going to happen. Yeah. So yeah, yeah. And I think the more important thing is just like, try to constantly be building skills to be like, you know, at the edge of being, like, really good. Yeah. Or like, you're just gonna have to whatever career we go into our generation is just going to have to anticipate that there's a chance that could be totally changed by technology, for sure. And like, it probably will be. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Actually, one other thing I was gonna sorry, going one more point on the subjective and objective reports thing. One thing that's kind of interesting about getting objective but somewhat more invisible, like measuring somewhat more invisible things like with EG is that's not something you can measure kind of at all really, outside of measuring brainwaves is not something you can do outside of like getting an eg, I guess, it's a bit of a contrived example, maybe I read a book A while ago, I think it's called Spark. And it's it was basically talking about how like in gym classes, like gym classes, just like generally a sucky experience for like most people, especially in elementary school, because there's like some of the star, you know, gym class people in your class, and then everyone else is just like not having a good time. But what this like high school, I think it was a high school gym, the gym did high school did in his gym classes in the states somewhere, is they basically got everyone like heart rate monitors. So over the course of the semester, you basically competed against yourself. So like, right, with different kind of body compositions, different athletic abilities, they weren't, like, judged against what they looked like competing against other people, it was very much over time. Like, maybe you didn't look like you were pushing yourself that hard, just by like a gym teacher, like evaluating you from a distance. But you know, your heart rate monitor would would say that you're like, maybe one of the hardest working people in my class. Right? Yeah. That that is an interesting concept. First of all, I totally agree with like you should, in gym class, you should measure according to the student's improvement relative to themselves. And like, the heart rate monitor is an interesting way of doing that. But one, I feel nervous about having that data. Like, it's just like, it seems like I would, I wouldn't object to them doing it, but I would feel a bit weird. Like, that would be an invasion of privacy for me, like my gym teacher, knowing my heart rate throughout all of gym glass. But also, again, like that still has to be interpreted, because I want her present, like a really good Yeah, like, I might be like a really good athlete. And so my heart rate is gonna always below if I'm just playing volleyball, like casually, you know, well, yeah, I'm used to running with ultra marathon. Yeah. Yeah, I think with with all this stuff. Yeah, for sure. You still need to keep in mind all that. Like, it is still some interpretation involved. Yeah. Mate, if you think that's an invasion of your privacy, like, I have more stuff about more like, not necessarily, physio therapy as like, a science, but more about the job and career decisions, stuff like that. So if there's anything else you want talk about that's like, directly her job. No, no, I'm, I'm pretty done on that programme. Yeah, I think a few things about just like the way that she works and like the logistics of like, how she works, I guess. I think the two of us, like both really, like we talked about how we really value jobs. I have a lot of autonomy in their schedule, and things like that. Yeah. I think like a lot of our discussion was just about like, what is your schedule, like? And I think like, sometimes this gets overlooked, like, in just general career decisions. But I think like it should actually be sometimes a bigger role, right? Because that's literally how you're living your every single day. Yeah. Yeah.
This is something she talked about the very, very beginning. This was like the first question I think. She basically talked about her how she went about deciding on careers and what to study and stuff like that. Some things she mentioned. was like process of elimination for like what she didn't want to do for an undergrad degree. Yeah. And then also, like, when she was figuring out what to do after her degree, a lot of like reaching out to people speaking to a lot of people getting, like, kind of small experience, like doing cops to get some experience before like fully committing to a full fledged career, for example. That is like, I feel like the ideal way to go about exploring your career. Honestly, that is, like if I was gonna be like, these are the advices that you should follow like that is that is what I would say. Yeah, I feel like she kind of just had the model career path, like, in some ways, you know, because we knew what like we've interviewed three practice people. And we've interviewed like Kara previously. And I think out of everyone we've interviewed, she's the first person we've spoken to who was like, I decided I wanted to do this at the beginning of university. I went right into it after my undergrad. And now I work as it more or less like she does a clinic management, but mostly, like, she's still a physiotherapist. Yeah, but one thing I want to like, I guess clarify is not necessarily that like she didn't go into undergrad being like, I'm gonna be a physiotherapist. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, but like, by the, by the beginning of her undergrad, she like already kind of Yeah, but I think it's like, we should focus less on the, like, kind of direct path that she took in her actual, like, career trajectory, and more in the sense that, like, the process that she took to explore was like, so well done. And I feel like it's a process that you should try to emulate like, in your own career, kind of do it as well, just because of like, yeah, process elimination, so much more useful than trying to actually like, you know, necessarily like, I don't know, I just find that a useful thought process, maybe. But also, like, you're saying, it's not that she just knew, like, magically what you wanted to do. It's that she had like the right process. So of course, you got the good, exactly. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. I think like, yeah, that's interesting, the concept of like, trying to get like small experiences, a ways that you can test out to see if you like a career or not, I think that is like something I'm really trying to do now. And it's a really hugely helpful thing to do. And this doesn't have to be big like she her way of doing this as co Ops, which I think is great, a great option. But even just like, if you're like, for example, if you're thinking about different careers in tech, you could do like little side projects, or like working in a lab, for example, if that's like something you want to do an undergrad. So yeah, just trying to get those small experiences and then truly being this something that came up with Kara as well as like truly being open minded to it. Like, I think this is something I wasn't good at when I came into undergrad, because I was very much like, I'm going to do research. And that's what I'm going to do. I feel like I'm still not good at that. Like, I feel like I'm still Yeah, it's really hard. Especially when you come in thinking you're gonna go into something directly, and especially when you're when your parents look down. So sorry, mom, dad, if you're listening on like having a career change, even though both of them had the most dramatic career changes. Yeah, I definitely feel that I kind of talked to my sister about this a little bit about like, yeah, it's it's kind of looked down upon to like, kind of change your mind. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So yeah, I kind of wish I had more of an exploratory like mindset going into undergrad. Yeah. I think like having that open mind of like, okay, yeah, I've tried this experience. And I actually need to, like, do an open minded evaluation of how I felt about that. Yeah, I think that like I would highly recommend doing that for like anyone who's earlier than us in their careers. Yeah. I think that's everything. Cool. This has been another episode of so you got a lifestyle degree with Jana Marvin about physiotherapy and clinic management. If you would like to support this podcast, you can visit our patreon@patreon.com slash so you got a website degree, where leave us a review on iTunes using the link in the show notes and music you're listening to is no regrets from audio hub.com Thanks for listening and see you next time.